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Rescue 240nm of Nova Scotia

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WTF was anyone doing out there in a small boat at this time of year?

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December? North Atlantic?  I'm 'puzzled'....

 

Oh!  That Darwin thing.... okay, got it!

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10 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

At least the electrics still worked.

DuqG_shVsAAiCjx.jpg:large

IS THAT BIMINI STILL UP???!!!

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Looks like that might be an anchor dangling around the bow...?

 

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And it looks bigger than 15m (48'?)

those dual windows amidships scream Hylas

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That look miserable but not impossible, but as others have said that boat doesn't look set up for the weather. 

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Steaming light is on - guess they didn't need the sails anyway. Confused that the report was posted at 7:26 PM AT, but that the tweet was sent at 8:14 PM.  How could the cutter and helo be in a different time zone?  Also seems strange that the photo looks like it was taken at dusk.  Shouldn't that be around 4- 5 PM if not earlier up there?  Maybe the crew just got too beat up to keep going.

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This is when those open transoms start to seem not to be such a great idea....

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Bimini might be solar panels? And genoa looks shredded. Probably horribly sea sick too. What poor judgement, and another potentially salvageable boat floating around, it will probably do quite well now that there are no people involved.

Report says UK-registered, but presumably sailing out of Nova Scotia. Can't imagine they made it that far from the UK before getting hammered.

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3 hours ago, Navig8tor said:

North Atlantic this time of year?

There are quicker more merciful ways to top yourself

You need to enable incognito mode first.

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Had mate on one boat from Nova Scotia he couldn’t swim I asked him why?.......he said if you fall into the water in Nova Scotia ....why prolong the inevitable.

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11 hours ago, Veeger said:

This is when those open transoms start to seem not to be such a great idea....

If you look closely it appears that the transom is one of those types that drops to create a swim platform

Wait till the storm passes, helo me out there with a small jib & I've got a new boat named "Timing"

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3 hours ago, Parma said:

If you look closely it appears that the transom is one of those types that drops to create a swim platform

Wait till the storm passes, helo me out there with a small jib & I've got a new boat named "Timing"

Yes, it looks open or a little small, (like the 'panel' was either a low one or maybe even just laying on the after part of the cockpit, it doesn't seem to be very big; pretty hard to tell really) but I was wondering if maybe it had not been intended to open perhaps.  In any event, a lot of sterns are somewhat unprotected on the newer wide bodied designs and the helm is pretty close to that stern in many cases.  Great for a marina or swimming but mebbe not for offshore...

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5 hours ago, Veeger said:

Yes, it looks open or a little small, (like the 'panel' was either a low one or maybe even just laying on the after part of the cockpit, it doesn't seem to be very big; pretty hard to tell really) but I was wondering if maybe it had not been intended to open perhaps.  In any event, a lot of sterns are somewhat unprotected on the newer wide bodied designs and the helm is pretty close to that stern in many cases.  Great for a marina or swimming but mebbe not for offshore...

Looks like a drop-down gate in the stern, probably the way the crew exited. Last one out forgot to close it.

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This was posted on an other forum:

Maybe it is or isn’t prudent to chime in, but I know how assumptions can burn like wildfire and get out of control. I have been in touch with skipper as I know him personally. Their steering system had been destroyed, the rams for autopilot system broke, they had made repairs with equipment onboard but conditions overwhelmed the steering system repairs, the boat effectively disabled. A very experienced skipper on board doing the delivery. He definitely would not have called for help until exhausting all means to solve the problems and self-rescue while keeping crew safe, while at the same time having ample enough experience to know when to throw in the towel, I’m talking well excess of 3 or 400 000 nm of delivery experience. I met him a few years after I was doing deliveries full time and regard him as a mentor in the industry. I look forward to knowing and learning more when he is a little less busy!

 

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Winter delivery, N. Atlantic  -  Check

Somehow, folks seem to think that seasons shouldn't matter  for deliveries I guess.  Very few (production) boats are designed and built for 'off-season' work, especially offshore.  (from where to where, I wonder?).

The assumption about 'catching a weather window' with modern forecasting and receiving capability is foolishness.  Just because folks have gotten away with it, doesn't mean it's a good or prudent idea.

For centuries, prudent seamen have navigated with great respect for the seasonality of voyages.  The sea floor is littered with the detritus of those who have ignored it... 

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Anyone know what kind of boat this is? I'm leaning toward a Hanse 445. If it is, the one's I've seen have a clew board on the jib that's too large to double wrap it properly when fully furled. That's your starting point for the suitability of this boat for that weather. Forget about a storm jib or trisail, it might not even be part of the inventory.

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1 hour ago, fufkin said:

Anyone know what kind of boat this is? I'm leaning toward a Hanse 445. If it is, the one's I've seen have a clew board on the jib that's too large to double wrap it properly when fully furled. That's your starting point for the suitability of this boat for that weather. Forget about a storm jib or trisail, it might not even be part of the inventory.

Looks like a Hanse 495.

hanse_495_photo.jpg

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If that's the 495, and the pictures of a drop transom and aft stateroom are accurate, then the lazarette looks a bit tight, repairing steering in seaway might be problematic, there seems to be little provision for back up tiller possible.

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22 hours ago, Veeger said:

Yes, it looks open or a little small, (like the 'panel' was either a low one or maybe even just laying on the after part of the cockpit, it doesn't seem to be very big; pretty hard to tell really) but I was wondering if maybe it had not been intended to open perhaps.  In any event, a lot of sterns are somewhat unprotected on the newer wide bodied designs and the helm is pretty close to that stern in many cases.  Great for a marina or swimming but mebbe not for offshore...

open transoms are fine offshore.., assuming the boat is otherwise good.

you can put webbing across if you are afraid of being washed out by a wave.., but at least they drain the cockpit quickly

 

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35 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Looks like a Hanse 495.

hanse_495_photo.jpg

i sailed on a Hanse once.. 

worst boat i ever sailed on

to be fair, i have been lucky to mostly sail on very nice boats.., but still.., it was totally unsuited for ocean sailing. which is not to say that people don't sail various Hanse yacht on the ocean - they do.., and often successfully.., it's just that if you have sailed on good ocean-going boats.., the shortcomings will be pretty apparent.

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2 hours ago, Veeger said:

Winter delivery, N. Atlantic  -  Check

Somehow, folks seem to think that seasons shouldn't matter  for deliveries I guess.  Very few (production) boats are designed and built for 'off-season' work, especially offshore.  (from where to where, I wonder?).

The assumption about 'catching a weather window' with modern forecasting and receiving capability is foolishness.  Just because folks have gotten away with it, doesn't mean it's a good or prudent idea.

For centuries, prudent seamen have navigated with great respect for the seasonality of voyages.  The sea floor is littered with the detritus of those who have ignored it... 

I crossed the North Atlantic in early November on a 22,000 ton Cunarder 56 years ago and I still vividly remember how appalling the conditions were.

Even on a ship that size it got scary. Doing it on a small boat is just Darwinian stupidity or ignorance.

As Eva Dent.

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33 minutes ago, Bruno said:

If that's the 495, and the pictures of a drop transom and aft stateroom are accurate, then the lazarette looks a bit tight, repairing steering in seaway might be problematic, there seems to be little provision for back up tiller possible.

Shucks, they've got a whole spare steering wheel, right?

FB- Doug

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3 hours ago, BoJ said:

This was posted on an other forum:

Maybe it is or isn’t prudent to chime in, but I know how assumptions can burn like wildfire and get out of control. I have been in touch with skipper as I know him personally. Their steering system had been destroyed, the rams for autopilot system broke, they had made repairs with equipment onboard but conditions overwhelmed the steering system repairs, the boat effectively disabled. A very experienced skipper on board doing the delivery. He definitely would not have called for help until exhausting all means to solve the problems and self-rescue while keeping crew safe, while at the same time having ample enough experience to know when to throw in the towel, I’m talking well excess of 3 or 400 000 nm of delivery experience. I met him a few years after I was doing deliveries full time and regard him as a mentor in the industry. I look forward to knowing and learning more when he is a little less busy!

 

Thanks.

Helps us armchair Admirals be less Admiral-ish.

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8 hours ago, BoJ said:

This was posted on an other forum:

... 400 000 nm of delivery experience....

 

Yes, that would be a lot of delivery experience. 100 transatlantic crossings (or 16 circumnavigations) is a lot of mileage!

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49 minutes ago, frant said:

Sort of begs the question then. How did he allow himself to get in a position that he couldn’t effect self rescue. Lack of preparation or complacency?

Not sure I buy that either 'cause' for failure to self rescue could be the 'only' reasons...

I'd choose this combo:

Production boat/ Winter N. Atlantic /  Autopilot failure due to unanticipated heavy forces on the steering system, pilot and pilot mount.   (unanticipated by the installer of the autopilot)

Without steering in those conditions, self rescue is but a wishful theory...  I'm still stuck on December in the N Atlantic as not being particularly wise...

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14 minutes ago, Veeger said:

Not sure I buy that either 'cause' for failure to self rescue could be the 'only' reasons...

I'd choose this combo:

Production boat/ Winter N. Atlantic /  Autopilot failure due to unanticipated heavy forces on the steering system, pilot and pilot mount.   (unanticipated by the installer of the autopilot)

Without steering in those conditions, self rescue is but a wishful theory...  I'm still stuck on December in the N Atlantic as not being particularly wise...

240 miles off Nova Scotia in December is just nuts.

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Someone pointed me to this thread. I saw the story when it broke and posted about it on my FB page. Pissed off a delivery captain or two.

From what I've read, these guys screwed the pooch. This is the boat - still floating high on her lines months later...

IMG_1743.jpeg

The dismasting was due to repeated run-ins with the rescue boat...

MAKENA-SEA-RESCUE-GLACE-BAY-01-TAYLOR-VA

It was a very nasty storm - but the boat wasn't put into storm mode as it should have been from what I've read. I can kind of understand them being where they were when they were there - it's a delivery - but they weren't prepared to deal with what came with it. And that's always a problem.

Don't blame the boat for this one.

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On 12/19/2018 at 12:37 PM, us7070 said:

i sailed on a Hanse once.. 

worst boat i ever sailed on

to be fair, i have been lucky to mostly sail on very nice boats.., but still.., it was totally unsuited for ocean sailing. which is not to say that people don't sail various Hanse yacht on the ocean - they do.., and often successfully.., it's just that if you have sailed on good ocean-going boats.., the shortcomings will be pretty apparent.

Agreed. Just delivered a Hanse 575 about 825 miles.  While I'm sure they are great, comfortable boats at the dock, at anchor, and for day sails, they aren't great offshore.  For one thing, there aren't enough hand holds down below for a boat with so much interior volume.  Everyone of us (3 out of 4 were experienced offshore) fell when down below due to the lack of handholds and the boat being squirrelly with a confused sea state.  There were some other ergonomic issues too, especially when driving.  While we made it safely, a Hanse wouldn't be my first pick to go offshore.

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There's a local Hanse that has won its class several times in the Annapolis>Bermuda, IIRC.  But if the steering broke, that's not certainly not unique to this brand; lots of "offshore" race boats have suffered that. And there's no really good way to jury rig some sort of drogue system in winds/waves like that.

 

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2 hours ago, Snow Guy said:

Agreed. Just delivered a Hanse 575 about 825 miles.  While I'm sure they are great, comfortable boats at the dock, at anchor, and for day sails, they aren't great offshore.  For one thing, there aren't enough hand holds down below for a boat with so much interior volume.  Everyone of us (3 out of 4 were experienced offshore) fell when down below due to the lack of handholds and the boat being squirrelly with a confused sea state.  There were some other ergonomic issues too, especially when driving.  While we made it safely, a Hanse wouldn't be my first pick to go offshore.

I always feel slightly ill when I tour these modern floating party rooms at boat shows - lots of space for entertaining but I can't imagine actually sailing one, especially offshore. 

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Hanses are what happens with production engineering but design/product development team are German based in the Baltic and dev team focuses a lot on Croatia And Greece cruising. 
 

Similar feeling I have for the Dehler 30 OD - at first from the outside it is interesting. But once you get inside, you get the feeling the layout is being done by a team giving it a first go and advised poorly. 

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Again, I don't fault the boat here. And I think any generalized comments about the unsuitability of a Hanse for offshore sailing are ridiculous - as clearly evidenced by this very event. The skipper reported winds of 76 knots. So this is a solid F11 to F12. It's a survival storm by any measure...very much in the middle of very "blue water"....

Quote

The next 24 hours were, Maundrell writes, a “very noisy and somewhat violent experience.” The winds hit 76 knots—about 140 km per hour—and the boat was “heeling rather alarmingly” amid the fierce gusts (heeling is the nautical term for a sailboat’s sideways tilt). Kurtze, the cook, tucked herself tightly between a bunk and the bulkhead in the forward cabin, cushioning herself with a sleeping bag and trying to read a book as the boat endured a full day’s assault. Maundrell, who had positioned the Makena in such a way that it rode the waves as smoothly as possible, did not at this point figure his crew was “in any particular danger.” When the storm finally subsided, there was only one major problem: the steering was shot. They were adrift—at least temporarily.

Tucked in and reading in F11/12 conditions...and not perceiving "any particular danger"...is not the sign of a boat that is letting its crew down offshore in survival conditions. It's the sign of a boat doing exactly what it's supposed to do offshore - and more.

The problem was the steering as mentioned - but remember, they were using the freakin' AP (one that had already been problematic) in these conditions...

Quote

But the crew didn’t get far before the first sign that this delivery wouldn’t be like all the others. The “autohelm,” a self-steering mechanism equipped with a compass and a motor that adjusts course and allows the crew to look after other onboard tasks, malfunctioned on the way to Gibraltar.

...

When it was safe to inspect the boat, Maundrell discovered broken steering cables, the autohelm “snapped clean” from the steering assembly and the rudder jammed under the hull of the boat. 

So, they were apparently running under bare poles in big seas with the AP doing the steering - in F12 conditions. Hal Roth wouldn't recommend that on ANY boat.

As you can see in the photos, the boat itself survived just fine - even before losing its mast in the rescue. I'll never fault any skipper or crew getting off when the feel they need to - especially in the reported conditions here. Completely their call. But they also didn't have that boat set up for the conditions they were in - when they knew they were rolling those dice.

So, at the end of the day, this Hanse is about as "blue water" as you can get to do what it did. Period.

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Bullshit on the reading in F11 conditions. You're just hanging on waiting for it to end.

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If forced out the door and onto North Atlantic waters in winter, I'd probably take this one over the Hanse. Maybe its just me...

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I have friends who are south Shore lobster men. Their season starts last week Nov through spring. Biggest set of waves one worked home through were 40 feet.

The ax sees use chipping ice. One nite coming back in Jan they had air near 0F. Nonstop ice chipping and it kept getting thicker.

Not pkeasuresailing thats for sure.

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Steering issues happen so often with these larger boats that it makes you wonder if the engineering really takes into account the dynamic loads.  I am not a naval architect or engineer, but a lot of of the steering systems I've crawled in and looked at seemed a bit under-built.  Given that this is the one thing that you don't want to have fail offshore, you would think that a lot of time and design would go into them.  

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4 hours ago, Zonker said:

Bullshit on the reading in F11 conditions. You're just hanging on waiting for it to end.

Yeah Zonk, this is kind of my point. We all have a decision to make in this particular account of events:

1. The skipper was honest and these were actually F11-12 conditions. Therefore, everything everyone has been peddling about "fragile productions boats" on all the sailing forums is completely wrong. Every single one of us here would beg for a Hanse if it kept us safe in these conditions...and provided us the crazy cool comfort at anchor.

-or-

2. The skipper, who the story said is very well-respected, is totally BS-ing about those conditions because there is no way a "production boat" could possibly do what this boat did in those conditions.

So, what do you need to believe?

I'm not going to try to find the weather data for that particular time. Someone else can do that. But I have a pretty good idea of which of these is true.

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So we have "evidence" that:

  • They were sailing under autopilot with "bare poles" in F11-12 - why didn't they heave to, deploy a drogue, or any other storm survival tactic?
  • The poles weren't really bare because there was a giant furled Genoa which caught even more wind when it shredded - why didn't they take that down to reduce windage?
  • The bimini was folded away but also still on deck catching wind - why didn't they take that down before the storm too?

I would think that a delivery skipper with 300-400K NM experience would know enough to do these things.

Regarding the boat itself, my biggest issue with modern production boats (as noted by others above) is not necessarily build quality but the large open spaces and lack of hand holds - getting flung 10 feet across the galley or cockpit is a problem regardless of how well the boat is built. 

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As for your breakdown, g - you've nailed it as far as I'm concerned. The are FAR more questions about how this boat was handled in a survival storm than how it was built. This Hanse did exceptionally well in light of the above.

People should actually be impressed by this modern production boat.

As for getting flung 10 feet across the galley or cockpit that's an often stated yet WAY overblown factor. There are plenty of handholds on these boats. You just need to know how to use them - like any boat. Or just buy a catamaran like I'm going to do.

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8 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

As for getting flung 10 feet across the galley or cockpit that's an often stated yet WAY overblown factor. There are plenty of handholds on these boats. You just need to know how to use them - like any boat. Or just buy a catamaran like I'm going to do.

There are also lots of cost-effective ways to address the handhold issue.

On my production monuhull I used regular 1" polished stainless and bimini fittings to create a removable "H" between the cabin sole and ceiling - like two stripper poles connected with a horizontal piece in the middle. It is situated on the boat centreline with the first pole within reach from the bottom of the companionway steps, with the second pole about 4 feet forward. So now you can walk fore and aft with handholds on both sides. It is attached with deck hinges can be removed simply by removing four pins. 

I also bought a multihull but that's another story...

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40 minutes ago, gspot said:

There are also lots of cost-effective ways to address the handhold issue.

On my production monuhull I used regular 1" polished stainless and bimini fittings to create a removable "H" between the cabin sole and ceiling - like two stripper poles connected with a horizontal piece in the middle. It is situated on the boat centreline with the first pole within reach from the bottom of the companionway steps, with the second pole about 4 feet forward. So now you can walk fore and aft with handholds on both sides. It is attached with deck hinges can be removed simply by removing four pins. 

I also bought a multihull but that's another story...

Twice, for deliveries, I have strapped the spinnaker pole inside as a hand hold. A bit cumbersome, but handy when things get shitty outside. Plus one less thing on deck to cause problems.

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1 hour ago, Al Paca said:

Do handholds work the same when you’re upside down?

No. They become footholds.

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One of the big boats in the '93 transatlantic was really wide and open. Built S.Africa. Twin rudder. Galley over diesel tank middle of cabin. Berths pipe p/S.

Owner fell out of berth flew clear over galley and smashed hard. Broke ribs.

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image.thumb.png.8dedefd71f47bec10e1d345bfc69d0f5.png

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hanse-495

Suppose you have decided that the Hanse under bare poles with a flailing shredding misfurled(clew board too big on self-tacking) jib that was left up during and before an oncoming storm because it doesn't come stock with a storm jib, tri-sail, nor is there a cutter stay to opt for...suppose it's the barely over 3 to 1 length to beam ratio that leaves performance under bare poles a little bit to be desired at 60 knots and you decide to throw in the towel as for keeping the boat moving...

...now you've either hove to, rigged a sea anchor or lie a-hull...you're gonna rely on the indestructible Hanse to carry you through the storm. But it didn't. When the dust settled the steering cables had snapped on both wheels and the rudder was jammed up into the hull. Presumably the rudder shaft bent after being knocked backwards by a wave?

Percentage wise, of all designs that have hove to or rigged a sea anchor to ride out a storm, how many have come out the other side with steering intact or at least jury-riggable?

Start sleuthing...

 

...Out of interest I read a couple of reviews, not really expecting anything more than preaching to the converted. At least one reviewer mentioned as cons: a vulnerable rudder(depth wise in relation to keel depth) and said he'd duck gybe in anything over 25 knots do to the mid-boom sheeting arrangement.

 

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2 hours ago, Al Paca said:

Do handholds work the same when you’re upside down?

anyone wanna take odds on whether or not the floorboards(if there is under-sole or bilge storage) are lockable on the Hanse?

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38 minutes ago, fufkin said:

image.thumb.png.8dedefd71f47bec10e1d345bfc69d0f5.png

https://sailboatdata.com/sailboat/hanse-495

Suppose you have decided that the Hanse under bare poles with a flailing shredding misfurled(clew board too big on self-tacking) jib that was left up during and before an oncoming storm because it doesn't come stock with a storm jib, tri-sail, nor is there a cutter stay to opt for...suppose it's the barely over 3 to 1 length to beam ratio that leaves performance under bare poles a little bit to be desired at 60 knots and you decide to throw in the towel as for keeping the boat moving...

...now you've either hove to, rigged a sea anchor or lie a-hull...you're gonna rely on the indestructible Hanse to carry you through the storm. But it didn't. When the dust settled the steering cables had snapped on both wheels and the rudder was jammed up into the hull. Presumably the rudder shaft bent after being knocked backwards by a wave?

Percentage wise, of all designs that have hove to or rigged a sea anchor to ride out a storm, how many have come out the other side with steering intact or at least jury-riggable?

Start sleuthing...

 

...Out of interest I read a couple of reviews, not really expecting anything more than preaching to the converted. At least one reviewer mentioned as cons: a vulnerable rudder(depth wise in relation to keel depth) and said he'd duck gybe in anything over 25 knots do to the mid-boom sheeting arrangement.

 

Rode out 60+, no sails left, helm lashed hard over, engine in gear at idle. Went to sleep. It is never one thing that causes the big shit fight but a bunch happening one after another. Doing the above gave time to slow down then get some rest. Sounds like these guys did the same. Then made the choice it was not feasible to keep going. Must be a hard call to make, never got quite that bad for me. 

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4 hours ago, gspot said:

So we have "evidence" that:

  • They were sailing under autopilot with "bare poles" in F11-12 - why didn't they heave to, deploy a drogue, or any other storm survival tactic?
  • The poles weren't really bare because there was a giant furled Genoa which caught even more wind when it shredded - why didn't they take that down to reduce windage?
  • The bimini was folded away but also still on deck catching wind - why didn't they take that down before the storm too?

I would think that a delivery skipper with 300-400K NM experience would know enough to do these things.

Regarding the boat itself, my biggest issue with modern production boats (as noted by others above) is not necessarily build quality but the large open spaces and lack of hand holds - getting flung 10 feet across the galley or cockpit is a problem regardless of how well the boat is built. 

100% agreed.

And if they made the above poor decisions, its likely that there were many others. So far with the keelboat crewing/skippering I've done, so far I've been lucky enough to not have needed to be rescued. I suppose when you kick around boats for all of your life you get to see what can go wrong first-hand, so you get to be cautious.

Getting flung about by the boat is part of boating and something to hold onto definitely helps! Not all of them are designed that way - but a lot are! 

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1 hour ago, fastyacht said:

One of the big boats in the '93 transatlantic was really wide and open. Built S.Africa. Twin rudder. Galley over diesel tank middle of cabin. Berths pipe p/S.

Owner fell out of berth flew clear over galley and smashed hard. Broke ribs.

Had anyone ever told him about lee cloths? Even the cook on this boat knew to wedge herself in so she could read during the F12.

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5 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Had anyone ever told him about lee cloths? Even the cook on this boat knew to wedge herself in so she could read during the F12.

We don’t need no lee cloth. Strap yourself down in a pipecot. :D

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38 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Had anyone ever told him about lee cloths? Even the cook on this boat knew to wedge herself in so she could read during the F12.

I don't remember how it happened. But an open boat with no longitudinal subdivision that is 18 feet wide, if you lose your hold, you are going. I think it is absurd to blame him for doing something wrong--except maybe taking delivery of a boat with no longitudinal bulkheads....I was on the crew of a competing boat, I was not aboard when it happened.

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Here's Skip Novak on heavy weather preparation. 

Here's a tour of Pelagiac 1 and 2. Serious heavy weather boats. My buddy ran into Pelagiac 2 in P Williams and got a tour. He said it was really, really well thought out. 

And finally, here's a tour of Jimmy Cornell's Garcia Exploration 45

 

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On 1/17/2020 at 6:02 PM, Zonker said:

Bullshit on the reading in F11 conditions.

yea, weather map says it was probably more like 40 sustained with gusts to 50kts (which is consistent with what the rescue service said - 'winds up to 50').

weather.thumb.jpg.95a455e9e7a078863e8671745cd85196.jpg

Note: that is not for their exact reported rescue position - I hunted for the stronger weather nearby - which would have passed over them.

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You have to be careful here, Estar. What you're showing in that image is for 12/17. The conditions he mentioned were for about 24 hours on 12/13-14. Again, I don't know what the weather was at whatever position he was at at that point, but your image above definitely isn't accurate in that regard.

As he reported, those conditions abated and he was motoring toward Halifax on 12/16 (so the steering was again functional), and he said he was trying to beat another low coming in...likely what you're showing in that image.

So, I know there's a strong desire/need to "poo-poo" the conditions. But let's at least be factual about it.

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Well, again, this is his report verbatim:

Quote

On Dec. 8, forecasts indicated a major storm developing not far from the boat’s path. Maundrell prepared for heavy weather, and chugged north under the power of the boat’s small diesel engine to try to beat the worst of it. 

By the morning of Dec. 13, it was clear the most recent forecast, which he’d received on a satellite phone on a four-hour delay, was wrong.

The next 24 hours were, Maundrell writes, a “very noisy and somewhat violent experience.” The winds hit 76 knots—about 140 km per hour—and the boat was “heeling rather alarmingly” amid the fierce gusts...

So, what to believe? Did this respected delivery captain really call for rescue in 40 knot winds?

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Okay, so you're saying this guy is not telling the truth. Maybe, maybe not.

As for me, I usually tend to go with the word of those who were there. He apparently has a pretty good reputation among top delivery captains. I'll give him some squish...even though I still think he made a few bad calls.

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10 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

As for your breakdown, g - you've nailed it as far as I'm concerned. The are FAR more questions about how this boat was handled in a survival storm than how it was built. This Hanse did exceptionally well in light of the above.

People should actually be impressed by this modern production boat.

As for getting flung 10 feet across the galley or cockpit that's an often stated yet WAY overblown factor. There are plenty of handholds on these boats. You just need to know how to use them - like any boat. Or just buy a catamaran like I'm going to do.

Smack I couldn't resist so I've set up a good ol' fashioned North Atlantic division boat show walk through smackdown. In the left corner from France,  is...the Garcia 45 Exploration weighing in  at...you'll notice some cool features like the dual rudder redundant steering  so that if one rudder, wheel or cable is disabled the other can continue working unabated...also helps with specing for dual auto pilots...

And in the right corner, from Germany, not sure of the weigh in but reputedly has some high latitude credentials as it was found floating on her lines after being abandoned with a broken rudder...the Hanse 495, (stock model). 

Gentleman, watch your rabbit punches, watch your kidney punches. Most of all, we want a fair fight. Good luck.

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So googled his name Maundrel;

https://www.macleans.ca/plucked-from-peril/

Yep emergency steering in action on this occasion just before rescue, and functioning as it should. It moves. And wheels not, so quadrant loose.
But why does it move so much, can not see anyone steering it.
https://rogers-newsandbus.akamaized.net/videos/13639244001/201912/1831/13639244001_6117120505001_6117114085001.mp4

F11 or 12, nah.

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10 hours ago, smackdaddy said:

Okay, so you're saying this guy is not telling the truth. Maybe, maybe not.

As for me, I usually tend to go with the word of those who were there. He apparently has a pretty good reputation among top delivery captains. I'll give him some squish...even though I still think he made a few bad calls.

my experience is that the 'facts' in 'media reports' of incidents like this are mostly (like 75%) flat out wrong, including things they have put into supposed direct quote marks. So if you ask me which I had greater confidence in - direct data from the national weather service or an account in an article - there is no question at all. I also know that sailors when reporting their highest wind speed tend to take their highest gust and add like 15kts to it - that happens time and time again. And who knows, there is occasionally micro burst stuff imbedded in big systems like that . . . . but this was clearly no force 11 (which refers to sustain wind speeds).

What we know is:

1.that these guys got off a boat that was not in imminent danger of sinking.

2. The weather had been harsh, but not 'suck your thumb in a fetal position' dangerous

3. These guys had found their steering and autopilot to not be robust enough, they look to have had some furling trouble, we don't know what else might have been broken or about to break

4. They seem to have set up jury steering, which a lot in situations like this do not manage, but I would think it would have been problematic to operate in winter weather - you would be very exposed back there and get cold quite fast

5.  They had had a pretty harsh passage and were probably beaten up. They reached their limit, had had enough, and pushed the big red button.

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Would have thought an experienced skipper would turn down a winter North Atlantic passage. 

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1 hour ago, estarzinger said:

my experience is that the 'facts' in 'media reports' of incidents like this are mostly (like 75%) flat out wrong, including things they have put into supposed direct quote marks. So if you ask me which I had greater confidence in - direct data from the national weather service or an account in an article - there is no question at all. I also know that sailors when reporting their highest wind speed tend to take their highest gust and add like 15kts to it - that happens time and time again. And who knows, there is occasionally micro burst stuff imbedded in big systems like that . . . . but this was clearly no force 11 (which refers to sustain wind speeds).

What we know is:

1.that these guys got off a boat that was not in imminent danger of sinking.

2. The weather had been harsh, but not 'suck your thumb in a fetal position' dangerous

3. These guys had found their steering and autopilot to not be robust enough, they look to have had some furling trouble, we don't know what else might have been broken or about to break

4. They seem to have set up jury steering, which a lot in situations like this do not manage, but I would think it would have been problematic to operate in winter weather - you would be very exposed back there and get cold quite fast

5.  They had had a pretty harsh passage and were probably beaten up. They reached their limit, had had enough, and pushed the big red button.

The only quibble I have you already also acknowledge which is microbursts or even local wind variability from the interpolated weather data

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11 hours ago, fufkin said:

Smack I couldn't resist so I've set up a good ol' fashioned North Atlantic division boat show walk through smackdown. In the left corner from France,  is...the Garcia 45 Exploration weighing in  at...you'll notice some cool features like the dual rudder redundant steering  so that if one rudder, wheel or cable is disabled the other can continue working unabated...also helps with specing for dual auto pilots...

And in the right corner, from Germany, not sure of the weigh in but reputedly has some high latitude credentials as it was found floating on her lines after being abandoned with a broken rudder...the Hanse 495, (stock model). 

Gentleman, watch your rabbit punches, watch your kidney punches. Most of all, we want a fair fight. Good luck.

I've been through all this many times, fuf. You can easily find out what I think - and the evidence that backs it up. I'm not going to jump through the hoops again. But, to be succinct - here is the flaw in your premise...

What is being discussed here are F11-12 conditions. Now, if you buy your Garcia or Dashew because you think it's built for F11-12 conditions, and sail into such conditions because "your boat is built for it" - you won't do that very many times before we never hear from you again.

As most know, I used to sail a Hunter. I loved that boat and wasn't scared at all - despite all the "wisdom" from "seasoned sailors" and "yard guys" all over these fine forums. After all, a seasoned acquaintance took a Hunter 49 from BC down around Cape Horn where he was hit by an actual F10-11 between the Cape and Falklands (that's the Southern Ocean). Lasted a day or so. From what I recall, the total damage was some popped stitching on the cockpit enclosure and a bent pin in the vane steering. He and his lady were warm and comfy down below the whole time...in their Hunter not their Garcia.

On the other end of that, I personally would NEVER own a Garcia or a Dashew. I think they are ridiculous boats for cruising.

The bottom line is - avoid F12 conditions regardless of what you're sailing. NO cruising sailboat, regardless of brand, is built for that...and if one thinks his boat is - he's stupid.

Now, again, as to whether Maundrel was lying or not in his account, I obviously don't know. Nor does anyone else around here. We weren't there. But that was his account...and I'm not going to accuse him of lying (though I will apply some squish).

Regardless of whether the actual conditions were F10 (for which there appears to be evidence) or higher- we DO know this Hanse was keeping its crew alive and well in these conditions in light of several questionable decisions. That's what these boats are built for. It did its job. Period.

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17 minutes ago, fastyacht said:

The only quibble I have you already also acknowledge which is microbursts or even local wind variability from the interpolated weather data

That's exactly why I don't put a lot of stock in a weather map showing the entire freakin' North Atlantic and making judgements based on that. But there's no point in arguing it. He's convinced.

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On 1/17/2020 at 8:02 PM, gspot said:

I always feel slightly ill when I tour these modern floating party rooms at boat shows - lots of space for entertaining but I can't imagine actually sailing one, especially offshore. 

rather have a pipecot at sea with heel and waves than a big pornpalace in the back...

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Again, I don't know exactly where they were at the time - but on 12/8, as mentioned in the article, there was definitely some nastiness afoot in the area...

atl-sfc-8th-18z.png

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23 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

 

What is being discussed here are F11-12 conditions. Regardless of whether the actual conditions were F10 (for which there appears to be evidence) or higher- 

Just to be clear - by definition F10, F11, F12 refer to sustained winds, NOT to gusts . . . . so the data from the weather service strongly suggest they saw force 9 (strong gale).  These gribs are 1/4 degree resolution data and they do tend to show 'local sized' sustained winds quite accurately. So, if you do want to stick to the data and facts we have available - referring to this as "most likely a F9" would be most accurate.

What the single highest gusts they might have seen we can't know. But there is a 'typical' statistical relationship - Typically the value of the maximum 3-second gust is on the order of 1.3 times (or 30% higher than) than the sustained wind ( which would have been low 50's in this case). But it is ofc possible they ran into some sort of non-typical gust.

Please don't underestimate multiple doses of F9 upwind in winter cold simply because it 'sounds low' - that is not trivial weather by any stretch of the imagination.

 

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19 minutes ago, smackdaddy said:

Again, I don't know exactly where they were at the time - but on 12/8, as mentioned in the article, there was definitely some nastiness afoot in the area...

atl-sfc-8th-18z.png

Everything shown there, where they might have been, is gale or less.  The center pressures are not very low, and the isobars are not super compressed. For the winter North Atlantic that's actually not a too awful picture - some not unusual strong funneling effect around lands end and southern Greenland. Again, a winter gale is not trivial weather - but it is NOT a F10/11/12. And you are now looking back 9 days before the rescue event.

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18 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Just to be clear - by definition F10, F11, F12 refer to sustained winds, NOT to gusts . . . . so the data from the weather service strongly suggest they saw force 9 (strong gale).  These gribs are 1/4 degree resolution data and they do tend to show 'local sized' sustained winds quite accurately. So, if you do want to stick to the data and facts we have available - referring to this as "most likely a F9" would be most accurate.

What the single highest gusts they might have seen we can't know. But there is a 'typical' statistical relationship - Typically the value of the maximum 3-second gust is on the order of 1.3 times (or 30% higher than) than the sustained wind ( which would have been low 50's in this case). But it is ofc possible they ran into some sort of non-typical gust.

Please don't underestimate multiple doses of F9 upwind in winter cold simply because it 'sounds low' - that is not trivial weather by any stretch of the imagination.

 

 

15 minutes ago, estarzinger said:

Everything shown there, where they might have been, is gale or less.  The center pressures are not very low, and the isobars are not super compressed. Again, a winter gale is not trivial weather - but it is NOT a F10/11/12. And you are now looking back 9 days before the rescue event.

Yes, I know. That's what I said - the 8th, not the 17th. You need to remember that this story as reported covers several days. And what you're still missing is that his worst reported conditions were a few days before the rescue (around the 13th/14th). And the above analysis does comport with the story around that time (the reports he said he was getting from the 8th on).

Again, estar, all I'm saying is that I don't know exactly what they saw where they were. And neither do you.

And personally, for the reasons you mention, I typically pad whatever I read in these reports by about 20-30% from the highest reported wind speed. That still puts those conditions in F11 territory. And I personally don't expect any boat to come through actual F12 conditions without very serious consequences.

So, I think we're quibbling past each other. This Hanse did a great job in a "blue water storm" - and it's still out there. Don't blame the boat. That's the point of the story.

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1 minute ago, smackdaddy said:

 

 his worst reported conditions were the day before the rescue (the 16th).

I've looked at the 16th - it's pretty much the same.

Again, estar, all I'm saying is that I don't know exactly what they saw where they were. And neither do you.

I typically pad whatever I read in these reports by about 20 knots from the highest reported wind speed. That still puts those conditions in F11 territory (56 sustained). 

No. Your quote was "The winds hit 76 knots", which I would strongly believe was a gust report (sailors pretty much never ever report sustained in that sort of statement) - which flowing your 20kt rule, would be an actual 56kt gust, which based on the normal statistical relationship would be a F9 strong gale.

So, I think we're quibbling past each other. This Hanse did a great job - and it's still out there. Don't blame the boat. That's the point of the story.

Some people up thread asked about weather maps and I just provided them.  I have no opinion or ax to grind with respect to the crew nor the Hanse.  I think this was a damn tough passage (I certainly would not have signed up for it), and I think the whole 'bluewater boat' argument is silly.

 

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1 minute ago, estarzinger said:

his worst reported conditions were the day before the rescue (the 16th).

I've looked at the 16th - it's pretty much the same.

Again, estar, all I'm saying is that I don't know exactly what they saw where they were. And neither do you.

I typically pad whatever I read in these reports by about 20 knots from the highest reported wind speed. That still puts those conditions in F11 territory (56 sustained). 

No. Your quote was "The winds hit 76 knots", which I would strongly believe was a gust report (sailors pretty much never ever report sustained in that sort of statement) - which flowing your 20kt rule, would be an actual 56kt gust, which based on the normal statistical relationship would be a F9 strong gale.

So, I think we're quibbling past each other. This Hanse did a great job - and it's still out there. Don't blame the boat. That's the point of the story.

Some people up thread asked about weather maps and I just provided them.  I have no opinion or ax to grind with respect to the crew nor the Hanse.  I think this was a damn tough passage (I certainly would not have signed up for it), and I think the whole 'bluewater boat' argument is silly.

Good gravy this like a hamster wheel. I'm glad you know what's happening at every location in the world's oceans at any one time. That's impressive.

First, I mis-typed the date above, I corrected that but not before you quoted me. His report of the worst conditions they faced were on 12-13/14. I'm sure you'll find there were just fresh breezes across the North Atlantic at that time too. I don't know. I've simply shown the analysis that formed the forecasts he would have been getting around the time he said he was getting them out there (around the 8th):

Quote

On Dec. 8, forecasts indicated a major storm developing not far from the boat’s path. Maundrell prepared for heavy weather, and chugged north under the power of the boat’s small diesel engine to try to beat the worst of it. By the morning of Dec. 13, it was clear the most recent forecast, which he’d received on a satellite phone on a four-hour delay, was wrong.

The 76 knots report is not "my quote". It's the captain's quote. So you really need to take it up with him. Also, my 20 knot rule here is not applying to the gusts - but the relationship of reported gusts to sustained winds (exactly as you said). That would put the sustained wind ~56 knots...the threshold of F11.

So again, this is really a silly argument. You don't know what they faced. You just don't. Nor do I. But there is certainly evidence of rough weather in their vicinity as shown above. I'll err on the side of the captain in this case.

Finally, I'm glad we at least agree the whole "bluewater boat" debate is silly. I really am.

Cheers.

 

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1 hour ago, smackdaddy said:

Also, my 20 knot rule here is not applying to the gusts - but the relationship of reported gusts to sustained winds (exactly as you said). That would put the sustained wind ~56 knots

just to be clear .... in that case you are not 'padding' (to use your word) really at all.

A 76kt gust translates statistically, using the typical metrologically accepted 30% factor (which makes rather more sense than your flat 20kts), to 58kts sustained ~ within a margin of error of 56kts.

 In every incident investigation, I was a part of there was a HUGE disparity between the press reporting and what we found in direct interviews with those involved. I would love to know if that 'quote' is actually accurate, that the captain actually said precisely that.  My experience with the press leads me to believe there is a good chance the quote is not accurate and given the met data we see it further raises my skepticism.

In incident investigations, you almost always hit a 'philosophical conundrum' of 'what can we ever actually know for sure' and 'what is truth'.  I remember some joking discussion about not being able to discount possible alien abductions in one incident.  In the 5 bullet points in post 71 above, I think I laid out the 'highly likely truth'.

But if you want to believe F11 in the face of the met data which shows 1/4 degree resolution wind data 2 forces below that . . . is up to you.

 

 

 

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On 12/19/2018 at 6:37 PM, us7070 said:

i sailed on a Hanse once.. 

worst boat i ever sailed on

to be fair, i have been lucky to mostly sail on very nice boats.., but still.., it was totally unsuited for ocean sailing. which is not to say that people don't sail various Hanse yacht on the ocean - they do.., and often successfully.., it's just that if you have sailed on good ocean-going boats.., the shortcomings will be pretty apparent.

I've sailed quite a lot on a smaller Hanse, didn't notice these obvious shortcomings... I wonder what they are. I've never experienced a storm onboard but know for a fact that the boat can progress upwind in 35 knots of wind and a steep confused sea, that it is stiff and very predictable!

These sundeers look like nice boats but I suspect that most people dissing Hanses here haven't sailed one.

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5 hours ago, Miffy said:

Would have thought an experienced skipper would turn down a winter North Atlantic passage. 

Most deliveries are out of main season times. When it is nice owners want to use it. It is likely that even just the furler not going wrong and the delivery would have been fine. Often just one thing, out of the chain of events, not happening and things don't go pear shaped.

When you do get offered a delivery at the perfect time of the year the owner often wants his mates to come alone as 'crew'. This usually leads to wishing it was the wrong time of the year so they don't come.

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2 hours ago, estarzinger said:

just to be clear .... in that case you are not 'padding' (to use your word) really at all.

A 76kt gust translates statistically, using the typical metrologically accepted 30% factor (which makes rather more sense than your flat 20kts), to 58kts sustained ~ within a margin of error of 56kts.

 In every incident investigation, I was a part of there was a HUGE disparity between the press reporting and what we found in direct interviews with those involved. I would love to know if that 'quote' is actually accurate, that the captain actually said precisely that.  My experience with the press leads me to believe there is a good chance the quote is not accurate and given the met data we see it further raises my skepticism.

In incident investigations, you almost always hit a 'philosophical conundrum' of 'what can we ever actually know for sure' and 'what is truth'.  I remember some joking discussion about not being able to discount possible alien abductions in one incident.  In the 5 bullet points in post 71 above, I think I laid out the 'highly likely truth'.

But if you want to believe F11 in the face of the met data which shows 1/4 degree resolution wind data 2 forces below that . . . is up to you.

This is what the article specifically states:

Quote

By the morning of Dec. 13, it was clear the most recent forecast, which he’d received on a satellite phone on a four-hour delay, was wrong.

The next 24 hours were, Maundrell writes, a “very noisy and somewhat violent experience.” The winds hit 76 knots—about 140 km per hour—and the boat was “heeling rather alarmingly” amid the fierce gusts (heeling is the nautical term for a sailboat’s sideways tilt).

I take that to mean the reporter/writer is repeating what he/she is reading in this captain's written account/report. I find that much easier to believe than "the press" just randomly picking out "76 knots" as a wind speed - while also making up things about the presumed accuracy of forecasts.

There are lots of other bits in the article where you can easily see the typical press embellishment (sideways tilt, conversion to km/h, etc.).

So, again, I see no reason to try to convince you or anyone else one way or another. That's certainly not my job nor my interest. This is what this captain reported. Take it up with him if you want to call BS. After all, several of your own "facts" and assumptions have been wrong thus far.

 

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