Shortforbob

Immediate withdrawal from Syria

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What's this all about? Sucking up to Turkey?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/19/us-troops-syria-withdrawal-trump

Donald Trump is reported to have ordered a full, rapid withdrawal of over 2,000 US troops in Syria, declaring victory over the Islamic State, and taking allies and his own advisers by surprise.

Pentagon and state department officials were left scrambling to interpret an abrupt change in course from the US policy decided over the summer to keep forces in Syria to ensure the “enduring defeat of Isis” and act as a bulwark against Iranian influence.

Senior officials were informed of the president’s decision on Tuesday night, and after news reports of the U-turn surfaced on Wednesday morning, Trump tweeted: “We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.”

snip

An abrupt US withdrawal would mean abandoning Washington’s closest ally inside Syria, the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, which has done most of the fighting in clearing Isis fighters out of its strongholds. They are being threatened with a cross-border offensive from Turkey, which sees them as indistinguishable from Kurdish Workers’ party (PKK) militants inside Turkey.

Trump talked to the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, by phone on Friday, and Erdogan later said he had received some “positive answers” from his US counterpart on the tense situation in the northeastern Syria.

The state department later said it had approved the sale of Patriot ground-to-air missiles to Turkey, while Sanders said Trump would “take a look” at Ankara’s demand for the extradition of Fethullah Gülen, a dissident Turkish cleric living in the US.

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4 minutes ago, Al Paca said:

Coming home to build the wall ?

Troops probably being returned under instructions from Vlad to enable his power play in the area to continue uninterrupted.

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Trump had some bad falafel.

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Coming home to take the fruit picking jobs that the Central American migrant workers won't be taking...... Oh...... Right...... Never mind.....

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Truly sad for civilization.  

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Looks like a rather expensive squirrel.

Never mind the Kurds , if Trump can bribe the russians into with holding whatever kompromat they have  and sell weapons to Turkey and keep them off the saudis backs and distract from Mueller..it's a big win 

Of course such a betrayal may make other allies think twice about co operating in other theatres ..but never mind.

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Wait!!! Didn’t the Electoral College install a guy who decried the previous White House resident for telling the bad guys our plans???

and

Isn’t it curious that the Communists have already exploded with praise for the decision to clear out?? 

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So looking forward to donnies photo op with a "Mission accomplished" banner in the background....oh wait .........never mind.

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2 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

It's not Trump's money, he doesn't give a fuck. And he knows the cowards in Congress won't do shit.

Actually I was referring to the cost to others.

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Well this is also interesting.

Maybe the USA has just been told to get out of the way.

https://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/turkey-to-launch-op-against-kurds-in-syria/news-story/f42642a85ae21bb042827eb11dc8ef6a?nk=c1ca19c5e1e5d34b7ac353c05dc1b412-1545256305

Couple of weeks ago.

Turkey will launch a new military operation in northern Syria within days, targeting Kurdish militia fighters who are supported by US troops east of the Euphrates river, President Tayyip Erdogan said on Wednesday.

Ankara and Washington have long been at odds over Syria, where the United States has backed the YPG Kurdish militia in the fight against Islamic State insurgents.

Turkey says the YPG is a terrorist organisation and an extension of the outlawed Kurdistan Workers Party (PKK), which has waged an insurgency against the state in southeastern Turkey for 34 years.

Turkey has already intervened to sweep YPG fighters from territory west of the Euphrates in military campaigns over the past two years, but up until now, it had not gone east of the river - partly to avoid direct confrontation with US forces.

But Erdogan's patience with Washington over Syria - specifically a deal to clear the YPG from the town of Manbij, just west of the Euphrates - seems to have worn thin.

"We will start the operation to clear the east of the Euphrates from separatist terrorists in a few days. Our target is never US soldiers," Erdogan said at a speech at a defence industry summit in Ankara.

"This step will allow for the path to a political solution to be opened and for healthier cooperation."

Turkey has repeatedly voiced frustration about what it says are delays in the implementation of the Manbij deal, saying last month that the agreement should be fully carried out by the end of this year.

Turkish and US troops began joint patrols near Manbij last month, but that cooperation has also been complicated as Turkey has shelled Kurdish fighters to the east of the Euphrates.

A US official, speaking on the condition of anonymity, said Erdogan's comments had created concern in the Pentagon that the fight against Islamic State militants could be affected.

The official said there was concern that a Turkish operation could distract Kurdish YPG fighters away from the middle Euphrates River Valley.

In March, another Turkish offensive against the YPG affected the fight against Islamic State and led to an "operational pause" in eastern Syria.

 

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6 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Trump cares about others?

he cares about votes from the military

https://www.militarytimes.com/news/your-army/2018/12/19/heres-what-may-be-driving-a-us-troop-withdrawal-from-syria/

Northern Syria has been popping up in the news a lot over the past year, with periodic developments in a tangled web of paramilitary group acronyms and overlapping allegiances.

Caught in the middle are an unknown number of U.S. troops — estimated to be around 2,000 — who man outposts in the region for the stated purpose of preventing a resurgence of the Islamic State.

However, it’s often said that U.S. forces play another role as well: preventing a clash between the Kurds and Turkey.

A withdrawal of U.S. forces from Syria would potentially cede control to Turkey, resolving tensions between the two NATO allies. However, the drawdown would also abandon the Kurds, who provide the backbone of the defeat-ISIS ground campaign. While ISIS is definitely routed from their physical caliphate, the group has the potential to re-group, and re-emerge.

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Related to the Flynn issue - who was an unregistered agent of Turkey? Did Vlad dangle the pee pee tapes to get Trumpy to do this, so that Russia and Turkey can take over the region?

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6 minutes ago, Nice! said:

Related to the Flynn issue - who was an unregistered agent of Turkey? Did Vlad dangle the pee pee tapes to get Trumpy to do this, so that Russia and Turkey can take over the region?

Russia, turkey and iran meant to be nutting out a new Syrian constitution.

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1 minute ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

he doesn't put that much thought into things.

On the contrary, he puts enormous thought into staying out of gaol.

His continued occupation of the big chair is kind of vital.

 

1 minute ago, Dog said:

Now who are the warmongers?

Just ignore it. 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

An abrupt US withdrawal would mean abandoning Washington’s closest ally inside Syria, the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, which has done most of the fighting in clearing Isis fighters out of its strongholds. They are being threatened with a cross-border offensive from Turkey, which sees them as indistinguishable from Kurdish Workers’ party (PKK) militants inside Turkey. 

Well, they trusted the USA so they have no right to complain.

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26 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Well, they trusted the USA so they have no right to complain.

Has anyone told ScoMo yet?

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2018-12-20/morrison-meets-australian-troops-in-iraq-pre-christmas-visit/10637390

He's in Iraq

Australia has had a presence in the region since 2001, which Mr Morrison said would continue.

"We talked about how Australia's role is transitioning and moving … more into that traditional 'train-trainer' role and that will continue to evolve," he said.

"We'll work that through with our coalition partners in the months and years ahead."

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5 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Lyndsey Graham was not pleased. 

Give it a day or two and he’ll reverse course. 

You mean Lindsey there-will-be-holy-hell-to-pay-if-Trump-fires-Sessions Graham? Yah, he's gonna flip flop like a fish out of water.

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

Maybe the USA has just been told to get out of the way.

Their situation has become more and more ridiculous as time goes by. The war was lost long ago. Bailing before they do actually get involved in a shooting war with Syria, Iran, Russia, and Turkey has been the smartest course of action for a while.

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4 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

Their situation has become more and more ridiculous as time goes by. The war was lost long ago. Bailing before they do actually get involved in a shooting war with Syria, Iran, Russia, and Turkey has been the smartest course of action for a while.

Probably some truth in that..could have given their allies (Kurds) a little warning though...hmm Kurdish/Daesh alliance anyone? 

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1 hour ago, Dog said:

Now who are the warmongers?

Always with you there are "sides" to worry about. These particular wars have been enormously popular with Olsonist and his elk.

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About time we left one of the countries we invade or occupy.    We never accomplish much anyway.  

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2 hours ago, Shortforbob said:
2 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

It's not Trump's money, he doesn't give a fuck. And he knows the cowards in Congress won't do shit.

Actually I was referring to the cost to others.

He doesn’t give a fuck about that either. 

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1 hour ago, Ease the sheet. said:

Turks playing hardball on their f35 order?

Another case of selling our allies, the kurds, down the river for a few pieces of silver.

 

 

Not sure it’s the first part, but the last part is spot on. 

Where have we seen this before? 

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There's a black humour side to this.

The Kurds do all the work.

Trump takes the credit, runs away and abandons the Kurds to the Turks

So Very in character it's difficult to raise the tiniest bit of outrage.

 

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26 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Lyndsey Graham was not pleased. 

Give it a day or two and he’ll reverse course. 

 

How much more money is he gonna make taking the reverse course,?

Sorry the political cynic in me is at peak with all the BS the current BOZO's seem to present.

Well Mr Erdogan we could not let you have MBS's head on a platter he's billions  ummm very important to us but tell you what those pesky Kurds well we'll just get out of dodge and you can hunt them to you hearts content right?

Say do you need some extra rockets for those aircraft? Just talk with Jared here he'll take care of things......................

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Pretty much.

Turkey needs to be made to understand a few things..they want in the EU..or a russian overlord?

 

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14 minutes ago, Navig8tor said:

How much more money is he gonna make taking the reverse course,?

Sorry the political cynic in me is at peak with all the BS the current BOZO's seem to present.

Well Mr Erdogan we could not let you have MBS's head on a platter he's billions  ummm very important to us but tell you what those pesky Kurds well we'll just get out of dodge and you can hunt them to you hearts content right?

Say do you need some extra rockets for those aircraft? Just talk with Jared here he'll take care of things......................

its hard not to jump to that conclusion..............

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48 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

There's a black humour side to this.

The Kurds do all the work.

Trump takes the credit, runs away and abandons the Kurds to the Turks

So Very in character it's difficult to raise the tiniest bit of outrage.

 

If there is one issue which unites the middle east, it's that the Kurds shall not rise.

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There's another spin already being spun

President Trump has the US in retreat. And China and Russia are racing to replace it

President Trump is in retreat. The US pullout from Syria is symptomatic of a seismic shift in global power — with President’s Putin and Xi making all the moves.

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I hope our very stable genius is following advice from people that have a strategic interest.  No, not happening.  I hope the Kurds win.  Maybe the deep state will help.  Israel, do no rely on this liar.  And fire your leader, you can do better. 

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Trump is a fucking genius. I have to admit it..... He's just a fucking wizard!

 Nothing like back stabbing your entire military chain of command to show who the smart guy in the room is....

 Just a fucking..... He's like  Einstein, but smarter, and with better hair!

 (I know that should all be in purple, but I just couldn't do it)

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What’s truly distressing is that until Trump’s sudden turnabout, the United States had something of a virtuous cycle going in the region. Not only was the Islamic State almost extinguished, but in addition, U.S. power was creating conditions for future stability. The new Iraqi government was eager to be a partner; Iran was realizing it had overreached in Syria; Sunni Arab allies such as Jordan, Egypt, Saudi Arabia and the United Arab Emirates wanted to help contain Turkish power and create a more stable Syrian state.

Trump aborted this positive momentum. He ceded power in northern Syria to Turkey and its proxies, which have made a ruinous mess everywhere in Syria they’ve tried to control. He abandoned a Syrian Kurdish ally that had imagined that sacrificing lives at the United States’ request would count for something. It didn’t.

Trump’s Syrian legacy: He has proved even more irresolute than his predecessor, Barack Obama. How does that feel, Mr. President?

https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/global-opinions/trumps-abrupt-decision-to-pull-american-troops-from-syria-is-riskier-than-it-looks/2018/12/19/8dcbc6ba-03dc-11e9-b5df-5d3874f1ac36_story.html?utm_term=.70a3fc8b0fe6

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

There's a black humour side to this.

The Kurds do all the work.

Trump takes the credit, runs away and abandons the Kurds to the Turks

So Very in character it's difficult to raise the tiniest bit of outrage.

Will he get another Purple Heart for this one?

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

There's a black humour side to this.

The Kurds do all the work.

Trump takes the credit, runs away and abandons the Kurds to the Turks

So Very in character it's difficult to raise the tiniest bit of outrage.

Will he get another Purple Heart for this one?

Classic Trump, throw people and alliances away when they don't serve the next immediate purpose.

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The most memorable circumstance that comes to mind is when the Russians exited Afghanistan almost broke after 10 years and the US immediately pissed all over their allies in that struggle the muggahadein.

One of their charismatic leaders was a guy called Osama Bin Laden, ring any bells?

Donald is so short sighted he needs glasses and forget the vanquished Isis just replace them with a group of really pissed of Kurds.

History repeats.

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I feel very alone with my military isolationism.   I was also forced to applaud Trump.   Blind monkeys on typewriters was my explanation last time this happened.   He’s improved to the broken clock category, but I have hopes he will have the courage to walk away from the Bush wars too.   That would improve his judgement to drunken dart thrower.   

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6 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

What's this all about? Sucking up to Turkey?

 

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2018/dec/19/us-troops-syria-withdrawal-trump

Donald Trump is reported to have ordered a full, rapid withdrawal of over 2,000 US troops in Syria, declaring victory over the Islamic State, and taking allies and his own advisers by surprise.

Pentagon and state department officials were left scrambling to interpret an abrupt change in course from the US policy decided over the summer to keep forces in Syria to ensure the “enduring defeat of Isis” and act as a bulwark against Iranian influence.

Senior officials were informed of the president’s decision on Tuesday night, and after news reports of the U-turn surfaced on Wednesday morning, Trump tweeted: “We have defeated ISIS in Syria, my only reason for being there during the Trump Presidency.”

snip

An abrupt US withdrawal would mean abandoning Washington’s closest ally inside Syria, the Kurdish-led Syrian Democratic Forces, which has done most of the fighting in clearing Isis fighters out of its strongholds. They are being threatened with a cross-border offensive from Turkey, which sees them as indistinguishable from Kurdish Workers’ party (PKK) militants inside Turkey.

Trump talked to the Turkish president, Recep Tayyip Erdoğan, by phone on Friday, and Erdogan later said he had received some “positive answers” from his US counterpart on the tense situation in the northeastern Syria.

The state department later said it had approved the sale of Patriot ground-to-air missiles to Turkey, while Sanders said Trump would “take a look” at Ankara’s demand for the extradition of Fethullah Gülen, a dissident Turkish cleric living in the US.

Fake news, it really is because Putin told him to......

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Senators call on Trump administration to reconsider Syria withdrawal

Quote

In the letter, Sens. Lindsey Graham (R-S.C.), Jeanne Shaheen (D-N.H.), Joni Ernst (R-Iowa), Angus King (I-Maine), Tom Cotton (R-Ark.) and Marco Rubio (R-Fla.), expressed concern that withdrawing U.S. troops from Syria would "renew and embolden" ISIS's efforts in the region.

 https://thehill.com/homenews/senate/422208-bipartisan-senators-call-on-trump-to-reconsider-syria-withdrawal

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

What’s truly distressing is that until Trump’s sudden turnabout, the United States had something of a virtuous cycle going in the region.

What are you smoking???

US-ISIS-SYRIA-1.jpg

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30 minutes ago, VOA said:

R pres sends troops = bad

R pres withdraws troops = bad

D pres sends troops = good

D pres withdraws troops = good

 

you guys make no sense

How would you feel if there was an Aussie unit or two abandoned between the Turks and  and  Daesh?

Moron.

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9 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

Afghanistan was one of the few just wars, as they weren’t going to hand the terrorists over to us and allowing them to attack with impunity is an act of war.    President Bush the lessor lost the war in just seven years.  President  Obama failed to win for another eight.    The generation that attacked us is aging out of the violence business.   They were mostly Saudi.    It’s time to walk away, with the certainty the country will cease to exist if it allows another attack,   Unconditional surrender or absolute death and destruction,   If the war isn’t worth such draconian measures, stay home.   

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1 minute ago, Lark said:

Afghanistan was one of the few just wars, as they weren’t going to hand the terrorists over to us and allowing them to attack with impunity is an act of war.    President Bush the lessor lost the war in just seven years.  President  Obama failed to win for another eight.    The generation that attacked us is aging out of the violence business.    It’s time to walk away, with the certainty the country will cease to exist if it allows another attack,   Unconditional surrender or absolute death and destruction,   If the war isn’t worth such draconian measures, stay home.   

For most of our time there, if not all, Afghanistan has been a mechanism for redistributing money from all taxpayers to the favored and entitled few. Our entitlement class has made enough off of it. End it. 

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1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

For most of our time there, if not all, Afghanistan has been a mechanism for redistributing money from all taxpayers to the favored and entitled few. Our entitlement class has made enough off of it. End it. 

Truth.    We were more worried about maximizing profits then winning, so we lost.   

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7 minutes ago, Lark said:

Afghanistan was one of the few just wars, as they weren’t going to hand the terrorists over to us and allowing them to attack with impunity is an act of war.

Not strictly correct of course. We just couldn't be bothered with all that pesky red tape when it was time to be blowing shit up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/the_us_refuses_to_negotiate_with_the_taliban

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I think it would be more fair to say that the war in Afghanistan has was won but we stayed to try and do what we did  in Europe after WW2. Which was as big a success as winning that war.

But however many wars you win in a place like Afghanistan, you have to be immediately prepared to fight the next one. And the next one. There are no winners, only survivors.

It's a country that was thoroughly destroyed before we got there. Whatever we build, is almost certain to be destroyed all over again. We cannot fix everything.

-DSK

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nobody wins wars and Afghanistan ain't any different .

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10 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I think it would be more fair to say that the war in Afghanistan has was won but we stayed to try and do what we did  in Europe after WW2. Which was as big a success as winning that war.

But however many wars you win in a place like Afghanistan, you have to be immediately prepared to fight the next one. And the next one. There are no winners, only survivors.

It's a country that was thoroughly destroyed before we got there. Whatever we build, is almost certain to be destroyed all over again. We cannot fix everything.

-DSK

More accurately, we took the time to kill most of the angry young men and half starve the rest before we tried nation building in Europe or Japan.    The Japanese culture would never have accommodated the west if we hadn’t firebombed most of their cities and driven them to kamikaze as a strategy.    By Leyte gulf they were using aircraft carriers without planes as bait.   After a couple nukes we occupied with a minimum of corrruption.   And found we could like each other despite our different cultures.

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3 minutes ago, Lark said:

More accurately, we took the time to kill most of the angry young men and half starve the rest before we tried nation building in Europe or Japan.    The Japanese culture would never have accommodated the west if we hadn’t firebombed most of their cities and driven them to kamikaze as a strategy.    By Leyte gulf they were using aircraft carriers without planes as bait.   After a couple nukes we occupied with a minimum of corrruption.   And found we could like each other despite our different cultures.

You think?

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10 minutes ago, Mid said:

nobody wins wars and Afghanistan ain't any different .

I would disagree strongly. Some wars have a definite winner, some wars have a definite loser, some wars have all losers and one who loses a little bit less than the others.

The fact there is often an interval between wars is the only reason why we think there is such a thing as "peace"

-DSK

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1 hour ago, VOA said:

R pres sends troops = bad

R pres withdraws troops = bad

D pres sends troops = good

D pres withdraws troops = good

 

you guys make no sense

No surprise that how when & why are beyond your grasp.

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14 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You think?

My GF’s grandfather died on Okinawa.  He was one of the guys screaming banzai.   She has trouble with weakness or the concept of pain being a bad thing, but  yea, we like each other.   

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I’m not minding withdrawal, probably needed to happen. But the US can be a force for peace and the cost of 2000 troops training troops, keeping peace? Not a bad deal.

i think a measured withdrawal with plans to support allies would have been preferable.

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12 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I’m not minding withdrawal, probably needed to happen. But the US can be a force for peace and the cost of 2000 troops training troops, keeping peace? Not a bad deal.

i think a measured withdrawal with plans to support allies would have been preferable.

That sounds reasonable.   The problem is there are always plenty of patriotic volunteers willing to be the first to die in one of our wars.   Nobody deserves to be the last sacrifice when we change our mind and leave town.  

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Oh, c’mon!  This is about Trumpian Suprise!  One of his big talking points has been that the USA telegraphs everything she does- and that makes the US of eh losers, eh?  Now we’re winners!  No one can anticipate what we might do!  Just try!  

This is fucking humiliating.  If we’d paid attention at all to the British experience in the area, none of this would be happening.

https://www.publishersweekly.com/pw/authorpage/peter-hopkirk.html

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8 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

I’m not minding withdrawal, probably needed to happen. But the US can be a force for peace and the cost of 2000 troops training troops, keeping peace? Not a bad deal.

i think a measured withdrawal with plans to support allies would have been preferable.

Granted..But faced with supporting your allies and standing between them and Turkey or claiming the credit and running?

You know what Trump's going to do.

You'd need to be a great negotiator AND have diplomatic skills to talk to NATO about perhaps having a serious little chat with Turkey...OOps.

 

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3 minutes ago, Lark said:

That sounds reasonable.   The problem is there are always plenty of patriotic volunteers willing to be the first to die in one of our wars.   Nobody deserves to be the last sacrifice when we change our mind and leave town.  

not when you've got a bunch of Kurds to cover your retreat and make that last stand for you.

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https://www.amazon.com/Like-Hidden-Fire-British-Empire/dp/1568361270

these 3 books ^^^^^ are mandatory reading to understand what is going on in the Mideast, however old the story might seem.  These things have been going on since ~ 1700 AD.  All of Hopkirk’s books are worth the time they might take.

Trump is playing the Fool.  Nothing less, nothing more......

What does that make the rest of the West?  Lost, I fear. 

The way to win the West is from the East.  This is Putin’s game.

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17 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

not when you've got a bunch of Kurds to cover your retreat and make that last stand for you.

That’s the modern military strategy.   Minimize American casualties by having others act as bodyguards and forward forces for us.   Kind of a backward Cabanatuan.  

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9 minutes ago, Amati said:

https://www.amazon.com/Like-Hidden-Fire-British-Empire/dp/1568361270

these 3 books ^^^^^ are mandatory reading to understand what is going on in the Mideast, however old the story might seem.  These things have been going on since ~ 1700 AD.  

Trump is playing the Fool.  Nothing less, nothing more......

What do you suggest?   Bankrupt ourself in eternal wars and make sure we are hated by most of the Middle East so Russia can provide resistance Kalashnikov rifles and Iran freedom bombs?   We should never have gotten involved.   I blame Sec Clinton.   Once we did, how did we make things better?   How does another year or decade help?  

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What I suggest is this- the English had 2 strategies, 

1- occupy and terraform the countries involved into western democracies.

2- go in, easily bust heads, tell the defeated that if they fucked up again, we’d be back.

in both cases, historically, after a period of relative peace, the locals would rise up, kill everyone they could, or attack whomever they could outside their borders.  

What bugs me is that, yeah, we should not have gone in at all, but Bush 1 did the latter, which was considered a conservative strategy, and Bush 2 did the former, which was considered a liberal strategy. (God only knows what Reagan was up to, Charlie Wilson’s war even considered as anything but an adventure?) Considering that they (the Bushes) both accomplished the same fucking thing, but option 2 took  much much less blood and treasure, the suggestion seems kind of obvious, no?  Everything that has happened since the 2 Bushes has been the continuation of one of these 2 strategies.  Until now, as the idiot or treasonness bastard (take your pick) Trump is going to abandon the theatre entirely to the Russians, which is what they have been fighting for for 300 years.  The Great Game reaches its penultimate moment.  We retreat to Fortress America.  What could go wrong?  It’s wrong on so many levels, but can we do anything to reverse it?  Trump, the ultimate amateur idiot savant Machiavellian has us by the neck- we can only watch and marvel, or writhe in impotent agony, take your choice....

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17 minutes ago, Lark said:

What do you suggest?   Bankrupt ourself in eternal wars and make sure we are hated by most of the Middle East so Russia can provide resistance Kalashnikov rifles and Iran freedom bombs?   We should never have gotten involved.   I blame Sec Clinton.   Once we did, how did we make things better?   How does another year or decade help?  

I think the problem goes back a bit further than Sec Clinton

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2 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Not strictly correct of course. We just couldn't be bothered with all that pesky red tape when it was time to be blowing shit up: http://www.bbc.co.uk/history/events/the_us_refuses_to_negotiate_with_the_taliban

   Negotiate?   Terrorists based in Afghanistan blew up buildings and planes.   They almost got the Capitol.   Unlike Iraq, and before Iraq proved us to be liars, all we had to do is give our word and statement of fact.    It’s not the time to negotiate tribute or weapons in exchange.   Turn the bastard over or we come in.   If we cannot do a targeted raid like President Obama finally did to get a Bin Laden then we invade, occupy, and administer complete martial law in every village.   If you don’t give up our attacker, your government is over as well as every government building on day one.    Absolute force with unrestricted warfare.   If a patrol takes fire from a city, destroy the city until the fire stops.   One sniper may be destroyed by a B-52 if that’s the most convenient response.  If the Nazi’s fortified a monastery we destroyed the monastery (Monte Casino) irregardless of the cost.   If the Taliban fortifies a mosque, destroy the mosque.  Then occupy the land and pacify.  Accept losses as necessary to control ground.   Quickly rebuild without corruption.   If we aren’t prepared to fight aggressively and suffer losses don’t bother with a decade of drones and a generation of angry orphans looking for revenge.   And certainly don’t invade another country before the first job is done, like Nazi Germany did.   

 

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5 minutes ago, Lark said:

   Negotiate?   Terrorists based in Afghanistan blew up buildings and planes.   They almost got the Capitol.   Unlike Iraq, and before Iraq proved us to be liars, all we had to do is give our word and statement of fact.    It’s not the time to negotiate tribute or weapons in exchange.   Turn the bastard over or we come in.   If we cannot do a targeted raid like President Obama finally did to get a Bin Laden then we invade, occupy, and administer complete martial law in every village.   If you don’t give up our attacker, your government is over as well as every government building on day one.    Absolute force with unrestricted warfare.   If a patrol takes fire from a city, destroy the city until the fire stops.   One sniper may be destroyed by a B-52 if that’s the most convenient response.  If the Nazi’s fortified a monetary we destroyed the monetary (Monte Cassini) irregardless of the coat.   If the Taliban fortifies a mosque, destroy the mosque.  Then occupy the land and pacify.  Accept losses as necessary to control ground.   Quickly rebuild without corruption.   If we aren’t prepared to fight aggressively and suffer losses don’t bother with a decade of drones and a generation of angry orphans looking for revenge.   And certainly don’t invade another country before the first job is done, like Nazi Germany did.   

 

See post #1, 3 posts ago....

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12 minutes ago, Amati said:

What I suggest is this- the English had 2 strategies, 

1- occupy and terraform the countries involved into western democracies.

2- go in, easily bust heads, tell the defeated that if they fucked up again, we’d be back.

in both cases, historically, after a period of relative peace, the locals would rise up, kill everyone they could, or attack whomever they could outside their borders.  

What bugs me is that Bush 1 did the latter, which was considered a conservative strategy, and Bush 2 did the former, which was considered a liberal strategy. (God only knows what Reagan was up to, Charlie Wilson’s war even considered as anything but an adventure?) Considering that they (the Bushes) both accomplished the same fucking thing, but option 2 took  much much less blood and treasure, the suggestion seems kind of obvious, no?  Everything that has happened since the 2 Bushes has been the continuation of one of these 2 strategies.  Until now, as the idiot or treasonness bastard (take your pick) Trump is going to abandon the theatre entirely to the Russians, which is what they have been fighting for for 300 years.  The Great Game reaches its penultimate moment.  We retreat to Fortress America.  What could go wrong?  It’s wrong on so many levels, but can we do anything to reverse it?  Trump, the ultimate amateur idiot savant Machiavellian has us by the neck- we can only watch and marvel, or writhe in impotent agony, take your choice....

Is it worth fighting for?    Fracking gives near energy independence and intelligent conservation would do the rest at a fraction of the cost, while making us a hero to a world facing climate change.    Let Russia struggle with terrorists and unending war.   

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12 minutes ago, Lark said:

   Negotiate?   Terrorists based in Afghanistan blew up buildings and planes.   They almost got the Capitol.   Unlike Iraq, and before Iraq proved us to be liars, all we had to do is give our word and statement of fact.    It’s not the time to negotiate tribute or weapons in exchange.   Turn the bastard over or we come in.   If we cannot do a targeted raid like President Obama finally did to get a Bin Laden then we invade, occupy, and administer complete martial law in every village.   If you don’t give up our attacker, your government is over as well as every government building on day one.    Absolute force with unrestricted warfare.   If a patrol takes fire from a city, destroy the city until the fire stops.   One sniper may be destroyed by a B-52 if that’s the most convenient response.  If the Nazi’s fortified a monastery we destroyed the monastery (Monte Cassini) irregardless of the cost.   If the Taliban fortifies a mosque, destroy the mosque.  Then occupy the land and pacify.  Accept losses as necessary to control ground.   Quickly rebuild without corruption.   If we aren’t prepared to fight aggressively and suffer losses don’t bother with a decade of drones and a generation of angry orphans looking for revenge.   And certainly don’t invade another country before the first job is done, like Nazi Germany did.   

 

You're funny..do you're rules apply to the USA sheltering war criminals and terrorists too ?

It also helps to get the right target:rolleyes:

yeah..go in and turn Iran and Pakistan into rubble..and start WW3..you know that you're not quite as  safe from retaliation as you were in the 60's? right?

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39 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You're funny..do you're rules apply to the USA sheltering war criminals and terrorists too ?

It also helps to get the right target:rolleyes:

yeah..go in and turn Iran and Pakistan into rubble..and start WW3..you know that you're not quite as  safe from retaliation as you were in the 60's? right?

My logic is simple, and a corollary to my martial arts training,   I don’t practice Wing Chun or judo.   If you make the terrible decision to harm somebody it should.be because you must.    You or somebody you wish to protect is in danger.   Your country has been attacked and you don’t wish to surrender.   Either you fight ruthlessly and decisively or you don’t fight,   These remote control wars that last a generation achieve nothing,   Nor does eternal occupation of safe zones in hostile countries,    Either fight with your entire being, doing whatever you can until you fail or the threat is gone, or don’t fight.   Don’t trade bruised knuckles and black eyes.   

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8 minutes ago, Lark said:

My logic is simple, and a corollary to my martial arts training,   I don’t practice Wing Chun or judo.   If you make the terrible decision to harm somebody it should.be because you must.    You or somebody you wish to protect is in danger.   Your country has been attacked and you don’t wish to surrender.   Either you fight ruthlessly and decisively or you don’t fight,   These remote control wars that last a generation achieve nothing,   Nor does eternal occupation of safe zones in hostile countries,    Either fight with your entire being, doing whatever you can until you fail or the threat is gone, or don’t fight.   Don’t trade bruised buckles and black eyes.   

Meh. Seems to me that destroying a country which had the temerity to ask for evidence before extraditing a prisoner falls short of your lofty words here.

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12 minutes ago, Lark said:

My logic is simple, and a corollary to my martial arts training,   I don’t practice Wing Chun or judo.   If you make the terrible decision to harm somebody it should.be because you must.    You or somebody you wish to protect is in danger.   Your country has been attacked and you don’t wish to surrender.   Either you fight ruthlessly and decisively or you don’t fight,   These remote control wars that last a generation achieve nothing,   Nor does eternal occupation of safe zones in hostile countries,    Either fight with your entire being, doing whatever you can until you fail or the threat is gone, or don’t fight.   Don’t trade bruised knuckles and black eyes.   

Still funny.

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Well Graham's not happy, almost calls Trump a liar

https://edition.cnn.com/2018/12/19/politics/lindsey-graham-trump-syria-withdrawal-stain-honor/index.html

In a speech on the Senate floor Wednesday night, Graham, one of Trump's closest allies in Congress, called the move "disastrous to our own national security" and a decision that was made "against sound military advice." Graham said this decision would make Americans around the world and here at home "more at risk, not less."
The South Carolina congressman said he was shocked by the decision and characterized the move as a betrayal to our allies in the region.
"We have been dishonorable. This is a stain on the honor of the United States," Graham said.

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Syria should be able to handle the remains of the Islamic state since Obama and Hillary cannot send weapons to those who oppose Assad.

We should not forget it was the huge foreign policy failure of Obama in trying to remove Assad that created this mess, there was no Islamic state under Bush.

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7 minutes ago, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Syria should be able to handle the remains of the Islamic state since Obama and Hillary cannot send weapons to those who oppose Assad.

We should not forget it was the huge foreign policy failure of Obama in trying to remove Assad that created this mess, there was no Islamic state under Bush.

Really?

ISIL originated as Jama'at al-Tawhid wal-Jihad in 1999, which pledged allegiance to al-Qaeda and participated in the Iraqi insurgency following the 2003 invasion of Iraq by Western forces at the behest of the United States. The group proclaimed itself a worldwide caliphate[68][69] and began referring to itself as the Islamic State (الدولة الإسلاميةad-Dawlah al-Islāmiyah) or IS[70] in June 2014. 

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