Sign in to follow this  
Nailing Malarkey Too

A question for all sides

Recommended Posts

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

  • Downvote 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
41 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

The short answer is very little?  I don't consider any of the major parties to be bent on damaging Americas economy, security, unity, and morality so it's kind of a false premise to me.  

My personal opinion is that at the 'national politics' level, there's functionally very little difference between the parties when it comes to the economy, security, or unity.  The duality talks a big game and throws out chum to their base with abandon but that's all it is - chum.  Debt, defense spending, spending on social programs, spending on education or farms or whatever... all of it just tracks demographics with a little tugging and pulling out of which bucket pays.  If anything, it's disappointing how little actually changes.  That's why Trump is such a massive impact - ANY deviation from the norm looks dramatic because the normal variation is so tiny.

Look at the current crisis du jour.  The $5 billion for the wall - is our national security really going to be ANY different if it gets funded or not?  I don't believe so.  Trump is more of a threat to our vision of ourselves than any actual threat to our personage.  Total government spending is $7.1 TRILLION dollars.  5x10^9 / 7.1x10^12 < 0.1%.  No matter how you slice it, that's just not much of an actual impact at the national/state/local level.

Even the morality side is lost in the weighting factors.  The government works on utilitarian principles - nothing more complicated.  We dick around with weighting factors but other than the occasional duopoly vs libertarian arguments, it's only dicking around with the weighting factors.  The base moral principles don't change, regardless of party.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
40 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

There are just a whole lot of old white men around these days and they are using their eminence to concern the world about old white men issues.  Crime and poverty are falling.  The world is interacting more than ever before.  The lot of the average human being is as good as has ever been.  The drop in testosterone and general depression of old white men is beginning to show through though.  The fact that old white men talk in the terms of damage to economy, security, unity and morality is in itself the thing that seems to be bringing about.  Quit whining about such things, get on with life and consider where you are in life's journey.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have said before that I appreciate the views of both Conservatives and Liberals, Republicans and Democrats.  I may have serious issues with the views of some individuals, but never would generalize one person's views or behavior across an entire group that I perceive them to be a member of. 

That all being said, if you appear to be attempting to validate your despicable bigoted and divisive behavior by getting others to admit even remotely approaching your level of it, I probably can't help you.   All I can offer is to remind you of what you are doing on a relatively continual basis.  I would suggest you work on holding yourself to the standard you imply in your post rather than lean on the excuse that others are just as bad as you.  If your bar for your character is PA, you have a serious problem. 

  • Like 8

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

The short answer is very little?  I don't consider any of the major parties to be bent on damaging Americas economy, security, unity, and morality so it's kind of a false premise to me.  

My personal opinion is that at the 'national politics' level, there's functionally very little difference between the parties when it comes to the economy, security, or unity.  The duality talks a big game and throws out chum to their base with abandon but that's all it is - chum.  Debt, defense spending, spending on social programs, spending on education or farms or whatever... all of it just tracks demographics with a little tugging and pulling out of which bucket pays.  If anything, it's disappointing how little actually changes.  That's why Trump is such a massive impact - ANY deviation from the norm looks dramatic because the normal variation is so tiny.

Look at the current crisis du jour.  The $5 billion for the wall - is our national security really going to be ANY different if it gets funded or not?  I don't believe so.  Trump is more of a threat to our vision of ourselves than any actual threat to our personage.  Total government spending is $7.1 TRILLION dollars.  5x10^9 / 7.1x10^12 < 0.1%.  No matter how you slice it, that's just not much of an actual impact at the national/state/local level.

Even the morality side is lost in the weighting factors.  The government works on utilitarian principles - nothing more complicated.  We dick around with weighting factors but other than the occasional duopoly vs libertarian arguments, it's only dicking around with the weighting factors.  The base moral principles don't change, regardless of party.

I’m not sure if that makes you an optimist or a pessimist.    You can cynically say a generic Wall Street Democrat would get us in as many wars and do little more to combat climate change then generic Republican, and I agree.  Goals needs and dreams of the average voter are similar, regardless of party or race.   People are people after all, slightly upgraded chimps.  But Flint shows government decisions can have a huge impact on individuals.   I’m ignoring low hanging fruit like Trump, since he seldom represents traditional Republican methods and only occasionally Republican goals.   I’m ignoring political games like Starr good, FBI bad.   Prioritizing military over education, billionaire tax cuts over infrastructure or giving an increasing number of people the choice of healthcare or solvency is proof party and elections really do matter.  

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Lark said:

I’m not sure if that makes you an optimist or a pessimist.   

just makes him a silly, foolish, libertarian. they always fall back to the duopoly bullshit when things look bad for Republicans.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

just makes him a silly, foolish, libertarian. they always fall back to the duopoly bullshit when things look bad for Republicans.

I’d seldom call posts by CMilliken foolish.    He’s one of the few that read, think, then respond.   

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Personally, i'm actually an optimist and a pretty happy guy.  Where I become cynical is that I see modern politics mostly as tweaks around the edges while the main peloton of governance just barrels along.

Take a look at immigration and peal back the rhetoric.  Both democrats and republicans want 'safe' immigration and by any objective measure, we HAVE safe immigration.  America takes in immigrants and political refugees.  We're arguing about how many - not whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.  That debate is over although a small fraction of people do seem to want to reopen the idea altogether.  To paraphrase WC Fields, we've already established what kind of woman you are, we're just negotiating price.  I see that argument play out over and over whether its national defense, education spending, health care spending, etc.  The year to year changes just aren't that significant, regardless of which party is in charge.  What was the military budget difference between Trump and Obama?  Less than 2%.  The shuffled some money around but it was basically nothing but a cost of living adjustment.

What matters to be?  Sound fiscal policy.  How to deal with health care, and, in particular how to re-frame, the end of life care debate.  I'm interested in where and how the US should use force and the practical aspects of maintaining the earth as a safe habitat for as many people as possible.  I support what I think are good ideas when I see them, regardless of ideology. 

This particular thread I decided to reply mostly because Jack asked a question  that struck me as odd. What followed was more of a defense of why I considered the question kind of irrelevant.  It struck me as a colorful 'do you still beat your wife' type question.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

The short answer is very little?  I don't consider any of the major parties to be bent on damaging Americas economy, security, unity, and morality so it's kind of a false premise to me.  

My personal opinion is that at the 'national politics' level, there's functionally very little difference between the parties when it comes to the economy, security, or unity.  The duality talks a big game and throws out chum to their base with abandon but that's all it is - chum.  Debt, defense spending, spending on social programs, spending on education or farms or whatever... all of it just tracks demographics with a little tugging and pulling out of which bucket pays.  If anything, it's disappointing how little actually changes.  That's why Trump is such a massive impact - ANY deviation from the norm looks dramatic because the normal variation is so tiny.

Look at the current crisis du jour.  The $5 billion for the wall - is our national security really going to be ANY different if it gets funded or not?  I don't believe so.  Trump is more of a threat to our vision of ourselves than any actual threat to our personage.  Total government spending is $7.1 TRILLION dollars.  5x10^9 / 7.1x10^12 < 0.1%.  No matter how you slice it, that's just not much of an actual impact at the national/state/local level.

Even the morality side is lost in the weighting factors.  The government works on utilitarian principles - nothing more complicated.  We dick around with weighting factors but other than the occasional duopoly vs libertarian arguments, it's only dicking around with the weighting factors.  The base moral principles don't change, regardless of party.

This isn't a policy thread or an us vs them.  Maybe you truly believe that neither side cheers for the other to fail or tries to obstruct and turn people against others. 

I doubt that, instead, I think "how can I be contrarian to a NM2 thread?" is all you thought about writing the above.  

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

He's looking for some sort of pathetic validation.

"Good point, Malarkey...  I'm as bad as you are." should be acceptable to him.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

I read the whole post before replying, including the signature.  Who is the fella in that picture in your signature?  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I read the whole post before replying, including the signature.  Who is the fella in that picture in your signature?  

In the body of his post:  "We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame...."

In his sig line: "Hillary Rodham Clinton, leading Democrats, the party of Immoral Superiority and Hypocrisy Excellence, since 1992"

Then there's the avatar.

It is a level of delusion I find stunning. I've never seen anything close to it in my lifetime so far. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, benwynn said:

In the body of his post:  "We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame...."

In his sig line: "Hillary Rodham Clinton, leading Democrats, the party of Immoral Superiority and Hypocrisy Excellence, since 1992"

Then there's the avatar.

It is a level of delusion I find stunning. I've never seen anything close to it in my lifetime so far. 

pretty awesome, ain't it. It's Mental Illness on full display.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Only now that Jack sees the walls closing in around Trump and what will be left in his destructive wake, does he come with his hat in hand asking for redemption by asking others to admit their fallibility. After an infinite number of "Hillary was worse," "Elections have consequences," "Making liberal heads explode," "Liberals are all evil" I find it almost comical that Jack would try to paint himself as anything less than a self-centered partisan troll. Simply pathetic.

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

This is like Fire Marshall Bill selling smoke detectors or Hannibal Lector promoting veganism :rolleyes:

Are you afraid what goes around is about to come around? WTF is this "you all admit to your share" bullshit? Last I checked the Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, the 2-person Social Democrats, various independent library board candidates, and the local school board didn't enlist an adversary foreign power to win an election and then start wrecking things with all the enthusiasm of a meth overdosed maniac with a bulldozer. YOU DID THAT. OWN IT.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is like Fire Marshall Bill selling smoke detectors or Hannibal Lector promoting veganism :rolleyes:

Are you afraid what goes around is about to come around? WTF is this "you all admit to your share" bullshit? Last I checked the Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, the 2-person Social Democrats, various independent library board candidates, and the local school board didn't enlist an adversary foreign power to win an election and then start wrecking things with all the enthusiasm of a meth overdosed maniac with a bulldozer. YOU DID THAT. OWN IT.

"Any degree of damage is secondary to winning the next election". your vote has been counted.  Anyone else?

  • Downvote 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

"Any degree of damage is secondary to winning the next election". your vote has been counted.  Anyone else?

Did this response make any sense at all to anybody?   Maybe he quoted the wrong person he was replying to in the wrong thread.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

"Any degree of damage is secondary to winning the next election". your vote has been counted.  Anyone else?

Sure. How 'bout some of your recent post. Put your hat back on and walk out the door. Don't let it hit you in the ass.

On 4/27/2018 at 7:25 AM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Makes Obama's Nobel  look stupid. A prize for being half black.

 

On 12/5/2018 at 1:26 PM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

What goes around comes around. Dems are sorry the nuked the filibuster and will be sorry for the fake collusion mess. 

 

 

On 12/5/2018 at 3:53 PM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Sorry, did I embarrass you with this post? Is the patina washing off your socialist hero? 

 

On 12/1/2018 at 1:48 AM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Every day you desperately scour whatever sycophantic media source you fancy for some speculatory morsel of validation. Something, no matter how insignificant, against which you can outrage over.  

You will willingly abandon any moral position if it offers even a distant chance or defeating your political enemies. Hypocrisy is your marrow. 

It is an illness, a mental illness. It sucks the joy out of your life and replaces it with hate. 

I'm sad for you.  

Oh and "Who's your President?" 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

"Any degree of damage is secondary to winning the next election". your vote has been counted.  Anyone else?

Did you mean to reply to me? This statement makes no sense.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

This is like Fire Marshall Bill selling smoke detectors or Hannibal Lector promoting veganism :rolleyes:

Are you afraid what goes around is about to come around? WTF is this "you all admit to your share" bullshit? Last I checked the Democrats, Greens, Libertarians, the 2-person Social Democrats, various independent library board candidates, and the local school board didn't enlist an adversary foreign power to win an election and then start wrecking things with all the enthusiasm of a meth overdosed maniac with a bulldozer. YOU DID THAT. OWN IT.

well said.....

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

I doubt that, instead, I think "how can I be contrarian to a NM2 thread?" is all you thought about writing the above.  

I can honestly say that never entered my mind :)   Serious.  I don't' follow you around, nor am I particularly interested in being an 'anti-jack'.  You've got plenty of followers to fill that roll without me! 

I looked at the question, pondered it in context of what followed, and tried to answer.  It did strike me as a 'we or them' question by how its phrased.  How much damage are you willing to inflict to win pre-suposes a willingness toward ends-justify-means.   i don't believe either major political party views themselves so nihilistically but I could be mistaken.

In any case, good luck with your thread.  I'll avoid commenting on your content in the future.  Be safe.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Jack - what exactly are you thinking here?
Should Democrats enlist Chinese intelligence services to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats spread unfounded rumors that Republicans are illegal alien non-citizens to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats engage in voter suppression to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats engage in gerrymandering to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats use stolen data and/or email from the Republicans  to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats start rumors that Republicans are pedophiles? NO

Should Democrats start rumors that Republicans are murderers? NO

 

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

I can honestly say that never entered my mind :)   Serious.  I don't' follow you around, nor am I particularly interested in being an 'anti-jack'.  You've got plenty of followers to fill that roll without me! 

I looked at the question, pondered it in context of what followed, and tried to answer.  It did strike me as a 'we or them' question by how its phrased.  How much damage are you willing to inflict to win pre-suposes a willingness toward ends-justify-means.   i don't believe either major political party views themselves so nihilistically but I could be mistaken.

In any case, good luck with your thread.  I'll avoid commenting on your content in the future.  Be safe.

 

Where have to been? The Republicans gleefully brought disaster down on our heads to get a win. Wrecking the country doesn't seem to bother them even slightly.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Where have to been? The Republicans gleefully brought disaster down on our heads to get a win. Wrecking the country doesn't seem to bother them even slightly.

YOU view them nihilistically.  THEY don't view themselves nihilistically.  THEY view themselves as patriots.  Just ask either side.

<Edit, although in truth, there is the 'burn it down' contingent :ph34r:>

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, cmilliken said:

YOU view them nihilistically.  THEY don't view themselves nihilistically.  THEY view themselves as patriots.  Just ask either side.

 

OK, so they are delusional on top of everything else.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Lark said:

I’d seldom call posts by CMilliken foolish.    He’s one of the few that read, think, then respond.   

There are too many explicitly anti-immigrant white-nationalist bozos that run through the Trump administration to say that noones arguing about whether immigration - in practice - is good or bad. It's a silly, lazy, false equivalence. The Stephen Millers want zero immigration.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

YOU view them nihilistically.  THEY don't view themselves nihilistically.  THEY view themselves as patriots.  Just ask either side.

<Edit, although in truth, there is the 'burn it down' contingent :ph34r:>

At a national level Republican politicians are in it for the money and cashing out, they frankly don't give a fuck about the impacts of their policy. I get it this is the "both sidism" charade, but jeebus pay a little attention lately and you'll see republican pols largely don't believe their own bullshit anymore.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

I read the whole post before replying, including the signature.  Who is the fella in that picture in your signature?  

Adam Lanza. killed 26 people including 20 toddlers. That’s his hero.  This coming from someone who purports to have tragically lost his son.

He’s a sick sad person.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Adam Lanza. killed 26 people including 20 toddlers. That’s his hero.  This coming from someone who purports to have tragically lost his son.

He’s a sick sad person.

It's actually David Hogg, one of the students who was nearly killed in the Parkland shooting.   

I know... Not much of a defense, but that's all I've got.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, benwynn said:

It's actually David Hogg, one of the students who was nearly killed in the Parkland shooting.   

I know... Not much of a defense, but that's all I've got.

Oh My bad. They kind of look alike there.  Probably a purposely unflattering pic on Malarkey’s part.

still very wierd what with the dead son and all..

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Oh My bad. They kind of look alike there.  Probably a purposely unflattering pic on Malarkey’s part.

still very wierd what with the dead son and all..

 

Yeah.  He fucked with his eyes to mock a shooting victim.

He really needs an alternative sig line when he's going through one of his high road bullshit phases. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

I read it.  I don't cheer any of our politicians failure. Because it's our failure. So here's my question to you.  Does this mean you are going to stop posting slanted bullshit, manufacturers info graphics and marketing, and actually have reasonable discussions about the horrendous mess Donald Trump has placed our country in? 

 

Because if not, this is just another of your worthless posts. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, benwynn said:

Yeah.  He fucked with his eyes to mock a shooting victim.

He really needs an alternative sig line when he's going through one of his high road bullshit phases. 

That pretty fucking disgusting.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, cmilliken said:

The short answer is very little?  I don't consider any of the major parties to be bent on damaging Americas economy, security, unity, and morality so it's kind of a false premise to me.  

Trump is more of a threat to our vision of ourselves than any actual threat to our personage.  

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement.  We have countries that have been staunch supporters of ours for decades that are now reevaluating just why they want to have anything to do with us.  We have enemies who have gained from his actions.  We have a very tangible loss of soft power. We have minorities who have had their fears confirmed by his actions. 

He has damaged this country. 

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't know what more I could have done. I'm a lifelong conservative and I've voted for very few Democrats, and never for the Democrats Presidential candidate - until 2016 when I voted for Hillary even though I can't stand her, lesser of two serious evils. Trump is inflicting maximum damage on us all now, hopefully when the Democrats take over the House, we'll have gridlock. Gridlock is horrible, but it's better than what Trump is selling IMO. OTOH I hope gridlock won't help get Trump re-elected in 2020.

I'm not disappointed in Trump himself, I'm way more disappointed that 63 million Americans thought he was a good idea, and many/most still think so? Incomprehensible. And I'm not disappointed in Republican leadership either, they're boxed in, again due to millions of clueless voters...

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Jack - what exactly are you thinking here?
Should Democrats enlist Chinese intelligence services to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats spread unfounded rumors that Republicans are illegal alien non-citizens to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats engage in voter suppression to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats engage in gerrymandering to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats use stolen data and/or email from the Republicans  to win the next election? NO

Should Democrats start rumors that Republicans are pedophiles? NO

Should Democrats start rumors that Republicans are murderers? NO

 

 

Yeah but always remember there isn't really all that much difference between the two.

-DSK

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

I'm going to have to disagree with this statement.  We have countries that have been staunch supporters of ours for decades that are now reevaluating just why they want to have anything to do with us.  We have enemies who have gained from his actions.  We have a very tangible loss of soft power. We have minorities who have had their fears confirmed by his actions. 

He has damaged this country. 

I appreciate the perspective but I recall similar comments after GWB and poof - Obama is elected, a nobel peace prize is handed out, and all is better with the world.  The good and bad of American politics is that it's superficially being remade over and over again.  If Biden wins in 2020, do you think that the rest of the world will say 'Fuck the USA for electing Trump, we're not working with you Joe...".  Frankly, the republicans were whining that Obama had sold the country out, done irreparable harm, and viola, the orange savior makes it all better.  There's people on this forum that blame Johnson and Reagan for today's ills.  That's why I'm so skeptical about the rhetoric.

So what has Trump done?

He's signed the republican tax plan (which I thought was unmitigated shit).  And he appointed Gorsuch and Kavanaugh (whom I think are 'b- grade' picks).  But is any of that any different that what any other Republican president would have done?  I don't think so.  That's not hate-Trump, that's just hate-Republican.

So what has TRUMP himself done.  He's absolutely trampled over separation of personal and presidential authority.  He's made a shambles of the Dept of Justice and State.  His nepotism is boundless and he's been a bad president as consoler and chief.   Does any of that lead to lasting damage?  Possibly - particularly the loss of long term bureaucratic knowledge but a counter argument could be made that those offices needed churn anyway because they weren't keeping up.  Have we lost soft power?  Certainly in the short run.  

Trump is pretty much an old school isolationist and is acting that way.  Clinton is demonstrably more militant than Trump. The world would be different - I don't know if it would be better.

Trump has 1 more year before he starts into run-again mode.  Congress is split - he's not getting anything interesting through.  If he doesn't win re-election, his legacy is set based on what these two years have netted.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

...   ...    ...

So what has Trump done?

He's signed the republican tax plan (which I thought was unmitigated shit).  And he appointed Gorsuch and Kavanaugh (whom I think are 'b- grade' picks).  But is any of that any different that what any other Republican president would have done?  I don't think so.  That's not hate-Trump, that's just hate-Republican.

...   ...   ...

 

 

Disagree. A better Republican President would have put some actual work into a real tax reform bill. In anything resembling today's climate, it certainly would have to include more big breaks for the top, but things that were widely discussed such as not giving tax breaks for offshoring jobs ended up on the shelf. Tax siplification would have been nice.

A Republican President with some actual character would have put Merrick Garland on the Supreme Court as his first pick.

Do you think this is too much to expect from any Republican? You may be more cynical about the GOP than I am.

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I’m willing to destroy America to get Michelle elected. Go baby go!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It may stun you, @Nailing Malarkey Too, but I’d like to be voting Republican at this stage of my life. I thought wide eyed heart-on-my-sleeve kids were Democrats, and serious adults were Republicans who had figured things out.

But the way things have turns out, tho, I’d have to ignore a metric ton of prejudice, privilege, false superiority and greed to vote for Ted Cruz, George W Bush or Paul Ryan. This doesn’t even begin to catalogue my disdain for a party foisting Roy Moore or Sheriff Arpaio onto the national scene.

Instead I proudly helped vote a black man into the presidency, and I next voted for the more qualified woman over the buffoon the GOP offered.

It is because I do not want to see my country damaged that I vote Democrat. I am voting for democratic ideals with a small d, and there is only one party with that in their platform. 

If the GOP works for voting rights, a reasonable response to immigrants and immigration law, makes the health and education of its citizens more important than corporate profits and approaches policing with a less racist attitude, I wouldn’t have a soap box to stand on.

Sadly, I’m given a new platform every day Trump tells a lie, appoints a lobbyist, or takes another emolument without Republicans protesting the betrayal of our country’s values and traditions.

In my honest opinion, you won’t read my post, except to decide whether it’s best to label, minimize or ignore it. I don’t really think you have an open mind. But I enjoy speaking on behalf of my country’s best ideals and goals. 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

....   ...    ...    ... It is because I do not want to see my country damaged that I vote Democrat. I am voting for democratic ideals with a small d, and there is only one party with that in their platform. 

If the GOP works for voting rights, a reasonable response to immigrants and immigration law, makes the health and education of its citizens more important than corporate profits and approaches policing with a less racist attitude, I wouldn’t have a soap box to stand on.

....    ...    ...

Never never never. You're looking at the Republican Bible right there.

The Democratic Party also has a sneaky way of putting corporate profits high on their priority list too, but at least there are other things ON the list in the first place.

12 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

... @Nailing Malarkey Too     ...    ...    ...    ...

In my honest opinion, you won’t read my post, except to decide whether it’s best to label, minimize or ignore it. I don’t really think you have an open mind. But I enjoy speaking on behalf of my country’s best ideals and goals. 

FIFY

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Keep the public uneducated, uninformed, and under funded..... A sure cure for a problematic democratically run govt.

Ignorant people do what they are told by the people whom they see as informed. Rich people must be informed. So we'll blindly follow them to the edge of the cliff, and as they stand on the verge, and wave us on, we blindly assume they they will be the last to jump, after us.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I read the whole post. I disagree with it's premise. There is no justification of your behaviour Jack, regardless of what intentions & actions you'd like to imagine up for others. 

Personal responsibility means owning your shit. Not blaming others or trying to justify it due to their actions.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Bent Sailor said:

I read the whole post. I disagree with it's premise. There is no justification of your behaviour Jack, regardless of what intentions & actions you'd like to imagine up for others. 

Personal responsibility means owning your shit. Not blaming others or trying to justify it due to their actions.

Otherwise known as "Trumpism".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

https://www.facebook.com/trumpisterrible

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply

 

You talk too much. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, benwynn said:

Yeah.  He fucked with his eyes to mock a shooting victim.

He really needs an alternative sig line when he's going through one of his high road bullshit phases. 

Harvard student to-be. 

https://thehill.com/blogs/blog-briefing-room/news/422591-parkland-survivor-david-hogg-accepted-to-harvard

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/21/2018 at 9:52 AM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

Why is Hogg your hero?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, Clove Hitch said:

Why is Hogg your hero?

Probably where he gets his marching orders...

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Sol Rosenberg said:

And of course Fox News mocked him for not getting into college. Unlike Jack, he'll more than likely graduate.

Parkland survivor David Hogg, who was mocked by Fox host over college rejections, finds Ivy League comeback.

https://www.usatoday.com/story/news/nation/2018/12/22/parkland-survivor-david-hogg-harvard-mocked-fox-host/2396762002/

Hey Jack, what do they say about the last laugh?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/21/2018 at 8:52 AM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Read the whole post before you reply.

"How much damage to America's economy, security, unity, and morality would you support in order to win the next election?"

You can all troll me and the same ones most likely will but the question is one we should all think about the next time we are in the political minority.

We are all guilty of cheering failure when our brand is in the minority. This adversarial mindset is at a peak in my years on this planet. Any outside observer would look at us and see the harm our partisan disunity is doing not just to America but to Americans. Divorces, family estrangements, radicals motivated to violence, despair, anger and hate all seem to be increasing with all sides intentionally fueling the increase. 

We have lost our pride; the left has replaced it with a mix of disdain and shame and the right with insecure bravado (MAGA for short). 

I'm willing to admit my share of the blame are some of you?  

Don't give us your horseshit "all sides" crap. Just because it's finally dawning on you that the orange menace that you'e spent the past 3 years supporting and defending is in fact a crooked, narcissistic traitor who is owned by Putin, doesn't mean you get to share your remorse by getting the libby-ruls that you've been so vehemently trashing to admit that they've been blindly partisan as well.

We are *not* all guilty of cheering failure. Do not make the assumptions that because you have gleefully thumbed your nose at the libby-ruls that all Democrat supporters have done the same.

And if "the left" has been expressing shame, it is because of the shameful things we have all observed.

Now that it's essentially proven that the current administration is a corrupt, traitorous mess, you don't get to share the blame. You own this. You and everybody who voted or supported an easily identifiable con man. So just quit it with your false equivalency, and your blind assumptions that others are like you.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

A queer thing about those waters: there are no

Birds there, or hardly any.

I did not miss them, I do not remember

Missing them, or thinking it uncanny.

 

The beach so-called was a blinding splinter of limestone,

A quarry outraged by hulls.

We took pleasure in that: the emptiness, the hardness

Of the light, the silence, and the water’s stillness.

 

But this was the setting for one of our murderous scenes.

This hurt, and goes on hurting:

The venomous soft jelly, the undersides.

We could stand the world if it were hard all over.

 

Donald Davie

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/21/2018 at 4:13 PM, benwynn said:

It's actually David Hogg, one of the students who was nearly killed in the Parkland shooting.   

I know... Not much of a defense, but that's all I've got.

I admire Camera Hogg because he'll stand up and say he supports the TeamD gun bans that you and I oppose, unlike the cowards who won't take a position but will just insult people like you and me who don't like the gun bans. Well, they mostly insult me. But if you mentioned our position more than once every decade or so, you'd get a dose too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

I admire Camera Hogg because he'll stand up and say he supports the TeamD gun bans that you and I oppose, unlike the cowards who won't take a position but will just insult people like you and me who don't like the gun bans. Well, they mostly insult me. But if you mentioned our position more than once every decade or so, you'd get a dose too.

It concerns me that I don't mention that I agree with you often enough.  If you were to provide me with a monthly quota I would do my best to give you the validation you are looking for.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If someone could insult me right now, as a special gesture to Tom, that would be great.  Also, providing at least a condescending nickname to a shooting victim would also be appreciated. 

'Tis the season of giving!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, benwynn said:

That really stung. Thank you 

Joining in the name calling is a much safer option. Can't say I blame you, if you want to continue to be accepted around here.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, benwynn said:

If someone could insult me right now, as a special gesture to Tom, that would be great.  Also, providing at least a condescending nickname to a shooting victim would also be appreciated. 

'Tis the season of giving!

You fuckin' jerk

You're welcome, and Merry Christmas to you and yours

-DSK

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, benwynn said:

If someone could insult me right now, as a special gesture to Tom, that would be great. 

You're one of Randumb's elk.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Back to being serious:

Happy Jacky does not get the main point here:
We don't have R vs. D with each side going a bit too far.

We have sanity vs. insanity. We have Americans vs. Russians. We have order vs. chaos. We have toddlers vs. adults.

There is no equivalence between these sides right now. I don't think we have even one real live Democrat on all of PA either. We have people who vote that way when the other choice is not within the realm of palatable options. Our TIC (toddler in chief) is dismantling the government right now right in full view of the public.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

Joining in the name calling is a much safer option. Can't say I blame you, if you want to continue to be accepted around here.

What was it again, "Camera Hogg"?  I just want to make sure I have it right.

Hey I've got one ...

Half Brain Brady.

Get it?  He was shot in the head.

HA!

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

You fuckin' jerk

You're welcome, and Merry Christmas to you and yours

-DSK

Thanks.  I feel Tom's induced guilt just melting away.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, benwynn said:

What was it again, "Camera Hogg"? 

 

"Shooting victim" my ass. There are lots of those. The only person with a more unnatural attraction to cameras is noted grabber Chuck Schumer.

He's prominent and politically convenient to talk about because he's a symbol of the very most useful kind of shooting for TeamD grabbers who want to pass the "assault" weapon bans you and I oppose.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
25 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

 

"Shooting victim" my ass. There are lots of those. The only person with a more unnatural attraction to cameras is noted grabber Chuck Schumer.

He's prominent and politically convenient to talk about because he's a symbol of the very most useful kind of shooting for TeamD grabbers who want to pass the "assault" weapon bans you and I oppose.

I can disagree with him, yet still acknowledge the reality of what happened to him. 

Otherwise you make a reasonable point (to you) that someone who was never a victim of gun violence (your reality) has no business being a spokesperson on gun violence prevention.

Sort of like the Bradys .  I think.   Uh..... Right?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, benwynn said:

If someone could insult me right now, as a special gesture to Tom, that would be great.  Also, providing at least a condescending nickname to a shooting victim would also be appreciated. 

 'Tis the season of giving!

You know, giving Tom any kind of validation sounds like a bad idea, but it is Christmas and all so - you're a fucking moron. Hope you and dogballs appreciate the effort. ;) 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Anyone that thinks ‘their’ party is going to look after them are idiots. All politicians, all flavours, will smile and lie through their teeth to ge elected. In NZ, and probably most so called democracies, the day to day difference is not that great. 

So vote to make your area marginal. A safe seat is ignored by those that will win and ignored by those that were lose. No money in it. Make it close and they will fight. More importantly they will spend money. 

Of course most of you would rather cut your own tongues out than support the “other side”. Pity, because if we made them worry about all electorates we would all be better off. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, benwynn said:

Otherwise you make a reasonable point (to you) that someone who was never a victim of gun violence (your reality) has no business being a spokesperson on gun violence prevention.

A reasonable point to me would be something like: "Tom's ownership of a squirrel shooter has NOTHING to do with the politically convenient shooting that TeamD is using as an excuse to ban and confiscate it."

But if you go around saying stuff like that you'll get a cute nickname and possibly get the forum software edited to suppress the fact that TeamD wants to ban and confiscate our squirrel shooters.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Oddly enough, you were able to state that TeamD wants to ban and confiscate your squirrel shooter without the forum suppressing you. Funny that.

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone ever got the joke behind libertarians being all about personal responsibility right up until they have to own their own shit? Yeah, I never understood how that worked either.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

A reasonable point to me would be something like: "Tom's ownership of a squirrel shooter has NOTHING to do with the politically convenient shooting that TeamD is using as an excuse to ban and confiscate it."

But if you go around saying stuff like that you'll get a cute nickname and possibly get the forum software edited to suppress the fact that TeamD wants to ban and confiscate our squirrel shooters.

Does "Camera Hogg" qualify as a cute nickname? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Oddly enough, you were able to state that TeamD wants to ban and confiscate your squirrel shooter without the forum suppressing you. Funny that.

On a completely unrelated note, has anyone ever got the joke behind libertarians being all about personal responsibility right up until they have to own their own shit? Yeah, I never understood how that worked either.

It's a complete disassociation from society. 

I cannot take a knife on a plane, because some OTHER people used box cutters to hijack planes. 

"Ben taking his knife on a plane has NOTHING to do with the politically convenient terror attack.that TeamR and TeamD used as an excuse to ban him from doing so."

Nope. Sorry. It has EVERYTHING to do with it. Society plays to the lowest common denominator. Be it drugs, drinking a beer while driving, carrying a switchblade, not wearing a helmet on a bike,  not having glass containers around a pool, etc.

We cannot do certain things or possess certain things, the reason being that somebody fucked it up for the rest of us. In a society we pay personally for the fuck ups of complete strangers.  

Most of us learned this back in high school gym class 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Hoggballs!

It's wrong to give cute nicknames to people you disagree with.

Sometimes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, dogballs Tom said:

A reasonable point to me would be something like: "Tom's ownership of a squirrel shooter has NOTHING to do with the politically convenient shooting that TeamD is using as an excuse to ban and confiscate it."

But if you go around saying stuff like that you'll get a cute nickname and possibly get the forum software edited to suppress the fact that TeamD wants to ban and confiscate our squirrel shooters.

Fuck yeah. Fakeass Libertarian whining about private persons doing shit. Merry fucking Christmas to me.

it's almost like all of this "libertarian" bullshit is "gimme all the benefits without any of the costs".

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

"it's almost like all of this "libertarian" bullshit is "gimme all the benefits without any of the costs"."

Anarchists with at trust fund.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 12/25/2018 at 4:00 AM, benwynn said:

It's a complete disassociation from society. 

Don't need to go further than that really. Dissociative disorders very often occur as a result of trauma that the sufferer couldn't deal with. Libertarianism is what people adopt when unable to deal with the 'trauma' of dealing with what's needed to keep society functional beyond the size of a small village.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, Bent Sailor said:

Don't need to go further than that really. Dissociative disorders very often occur as a result of trauma that the sufferer couldn't deal with. Libertarianism is what people adopt when unable to deal with the 'trauma' of dealing with what's needed to keep society functional beyond the size of a small village.

Or crack.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Libertarians see a photo of an orphan chained to a machine in some dark satanic mill in England and always assume that if they lived back then they would be the mill owner :rolleyes:

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites