Mid

2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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2 hours ago, random said:

Yes, and I bet they think it now was not worth it.

There is no excuse for being such a cunt that you break the most fundamental rule in the sport.

I kind of get why they didn't RAF.  The fundamental rule says they should take a penalty, which MAY include retirement.  They probably thought that, worst case, they would get a time penalty at the protest.  Then the protest went away on a technicality.  What do they do now?  RAF seems too harsh for this kind of rule violation - there is plenty of precedent for boats who commit this kind of foul to receive a time penalty and not a DSQ.  If they RAF the entire effort was in vain.  They can't give themselves a time penalty, the PC has to do it.  Kind of an odd predicament.  In their shoes I think I would have re-filed the finish report noting the non-compliance and waited to see what happened, assuming the original report did not include that information.  

If the original or an amended report did note the non-compliance, and the RC chose not to act on that information, they are scot free.  This is not an unusual thing - RC's overlook things like this fairly often.  Who hasn't had a safety inspection and been scolded for a minor infraction eg. knife not tied to the binnacle in the cockpit or hatch tie-downs not readily available?  I've seen much worse be overlooked - deliberately interfering with commercial traffic to the point where the skipper of the commercial vessel complained on the radio identifying the boat by name and sail number, failing to check in on a sked even with boats beside them yelling at them to remind them etc. etc.

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5 minutes ago, Rail Meat said:

  Its not that hard other than needing access to the subscription services that show satellite reception of AIS signals.  If others were not functioning, they should be penalized as well.  Its also the type of surveillance the RC should do across the entire fleet if this is going to be a requirement in the SI.

Dunce.  AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.  Perhaps you're confusing AIS with satellite tracker systems like YellowBrick, Spot, Explorer+, etc.  Go over and stand in the corner for 60 minutes.

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Here's a question.

You're batting and nick it on the way to the keepers gloves. Only you know you hit it.

The opposing team is suspicious, but not confident enough to use an appeal. 

Do you stay at the crease? 

Or walk? 

 

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17 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Dunce.  AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.  Perhaps you're confusing AIS with satellite tracker systems like YellowBrick, Spot, Explorer+, etc.  Go over and stand in the corner for 60 minutes.

Axolotl, I have a Class B transponder and I can see all the GNSS satellite locations, quantity and signal quality in my config setup? Or is that simply related to the Lat Long fix?

Edit: Don't answer that, I got off my arse and looked it up. I only have 1 x Transmitter on the transponder and that is on the VHF antenna frequency. Satellite is RX only.

 

 

  

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6 minutes ago, Maw said:

Here's a question.

You're batting and nick it on the way to the keepers gloves. Only you know you hit it.

The opposing team is suspicious, but not confident enough to use an appeal. 

Do you stay at the crease? 

Or walk? 

 

Cricket was also once a gentlemans sport until the big $$ came in. Pros will not walk until they get the finger.. 

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6 minutes ago, Maw said:

Here's a question.

You're batting and nick it on the way to the keepers gloves. Only you know you hit it.

The opposing team is suspicious, but not confident enough to use an appeal. 

Do you stay at the crease? 

Or walk? 

 

A stick and ball game which is played with referees on a small turf; not relevant

.

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29 minutes ago, staysail said:

So how about having a look at them with your eyes to see where they are? Outside assistance?

Some of you guys are really struggling.

AIS has a 15nm radius to surrounding boats.

Can you see a boat at night at 15nm?

you would be the one struggling..

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That is just getting confused.

There are two sets of satellites being talked about.

  1. The GPS/Glonass/Galileo sats that transmit the positioning information. All AIS systems use at least one of these sat sets.
  2. The various commercial sats carrying specialised AIS receivers that provide data feeds to commercial subscription services. 

CSTDMA Class-B transceivers are limited to 2 watts. Generally too low power to be received by any of the satellites carrying AIS receivers. SOTDMA class B and of course class A have higher power (5 and 12 watts respectively) and can be received. Generally it seems the fleet is still using CSTDMA class B. Even if someone did subscribe to one of the services offered by the sat owners with AIS receivers, you would not usually see the fleet.

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6 minutes ago, Maw said:

Axolotl, I have a Class B transponder and I can see all the GNSS satellite locations, quantity and signal quality in my config setup? Or is that simply related to the Lat Long ?

Yup, Class B is based on GNSS  so your device will report tight position information (GNSS) lockup, that doesn't mean you'll transmit that information to nearby boats if your transmit function is turned off.
 

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2 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Yup, Class B is based on GNSS  so your device will report tight position information (GNSS) lockup, that doesn't mean you'll transmit that information to nearby boats if your transmit function is turned off.
 

Thanks. I was more getting confused if a Class B can output, or uplink, to a satellite as well as the VHF freq.

I think Francis clarified my confusion nicely.  

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3 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

That is just getting confused.

There are two sets of satellites being talked about.

  1. The GPS/Glonass/Galileo sats that transmit the positioning information. All AIS systems use at least one of these sat sets.
  2. The various commercial sats carrying specialised AIS receivers that provide data feeds to commercial subscription services. 

CSTDMA Class-B transceivers are limited to 2 watts. Generally too low power to be received by any of the satellites carrying AIS receivers. SOTDMA class B and of course class A have higher power (5 and 12 watts respectively) and can be received. Generally it seems the fleet is still using CSTDMA class B. Even if someone did subscribe to one of the services offered by the sat owners with AIS receivers, you would not usually see the fleet.

If you are a few nm away from an opponent, and he decides to head offshore at night to follow a wind shift, his AIS B position will tip you off..

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11 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

That is just getting confused.

There are two sets of satellites being talked about. The GPS/Glonass/Galileo ats that transmit the positioning information. All AIS systems use at least one of these sat sets. The various commercial sats carrying specialised AIS receivers that provide data feeds to commercial subscription services. 

CSTDMA Class-B transceivers are limited to 2 watts. Generally too low power to be received by any of the satellites carrying AIS receivers. SOTDMA class B and of course class A have higher power (5 and 12 watts respectively) and can be received. Generally it seems the fleet is still using CSTDMA class B. Even if someone did subscribe to one of the services offered by the sat owners with AIS receivers, you would not usually see the fleet.

I'd disagree. STDMA does not transmit to S-AIS and Class-B transmissions to satellites even with SOTDMA are not generally supported.  Get it in your skull that AIS on pleasure boats is local, 10 miles or so, satellites are not involved.

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2 hours ago, paps49 said:

I guess we will never know for sure but as Tricky said, apart from this issue they sailed the pants off the old girl.

No they didn’t. They sailed an average race and got lucky that they were NOT in the lead on approach to Tasman Is. Comanche showed the other three that the transition was further off the coast than expected and they could all avoid it. Don’t forget that The Indian made WOXI look pretty stupid when she glided past around 0300 on Thursday in light winds to overtake them for the second time. 

I maintain that the AIS had nothing to do with the result. But I have never said that a breach of the rules is ok, as some here have made out. Totally agree that a proper sportsman would RAF. 

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21 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Dunce.  AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.  Perhaps you're confusing AIS with satellite tracker systems like YellowBrick, Spot, Explorer+, etc.  Go over and stand in the corner for 60 minutes.

I am not confusing anything. On the other hand, your reading comprehension is pretty limited. So fuck off.

I am perfectly aware that AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.   What I was referring to was the ability to research if other boats had been transmitting, given that a good portion of the race was done out of range of land based receiving stations.  Thus the need to look for services that track AIS data from both land receiving stations and satellite.  

And yes, to Francis' point CSTDMA Class B units transmit on lower power but I have actually seen a lot of signals from what I believe to be CSTDMA equipped boats get picked up by the satellite receivers.  Or maybe they are actually SOTDMA equipped and I guessed wrong.  I upgraded to SOTDMA this past year.

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3 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

If you are a few nm away from an opponent, and he decides to head offshore at night to follow a wind shift, his AIS B position will tip you off..

Eggzactly.  Radar, SAT trackers, visual observation will always be less accurate than an actual ping on the AIS-B network.

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4 minutes ago, axolotl said:

I'd disagree. SOTDMA does not transmit to S-AIS and Class-B transmissions to satellites even with SOTDMA are not generally supported.  Get it in your skull that AIS on pleasure boats is local, 10 miles or so, satellites are not involved.

Still stupid.

 

Yes, your Class B signal will get picked up by Sat receivers even when they are not being picked up by land stations.  Which is exactly how Just a Skosh was able to show us the screen shots of Commanche and Black Jack transmitting all the way through the race, and WOXI failing to transmit.  So again, fuck off.  

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2 hours ago, random said:

Yes, and I bet they think it now was not worth it.

There is no excuse for being such a cunt that you break the most fundamental rule in the sport.

No way MR regrets it. Last year when his afterguard advised him to do the turns he (allegedly) said “no fuck it we nailed him”.  And what is there to regret? Bunch of us moaning online about him but he doesn’t read this thread and wouldn’t care if he did.  Maybe Sandy does (regret it) but he doesn’t understand enough about the whole picture, he just sees a lot of people saying not nice things about his boat that just won and is puzzled. 

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17 minutes ago, axolotl said:

I'd disagree. SOTDMA does not transmit to S-AIS and Class-B transmissions to satellites even with SOTDMA are not generally supported.  Get it in your skull that AIS on pleasure boats is local, 10 miles or so, satellites are not involved.

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood my point.

The commercial sats are passive, they are not any sort of official part of AIS operations. They are a fortuitous capability that was not designed into AIS, and took a lot of serious effort to get working (because they have such a wide field of view the sats see overlapping transmissions in the same slots, and must untangle them). If the sats can hear the AIS transmitter they will decode the transmissions and relay it to their commercial subscription services - unless they explicitly filter class B out. This capability is independent of class. There is nothing that the AIS transmitter has to do with the service to be heard, except to be loud enough.

The entire point of SOTDMA versus CSTDMA for S-AIS is the power level. 2 watts isn't generally enough to get heard. So yes, for pleasure boats S-AIS isn't an issue. You won't be reliably seen, if at all. If you install a SOTDMA class B unit there is every chance you will be seen by S-AIS. The ubiquity and cheapness of SOTDMA class B units is going see a lot more pleasure boats appearing in S-AIS as time goes on. There is no intrinsic difference between SOTDMA class B and class A except for power levels and the amount of information provided about the vessel, and use of additional information capabilities available in class A. CSTDMA class B is basically the same as SOTDMA class B, but does not participate in slot reservation, and is restricted in power because of this.

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2 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood my point.

The commercial sats are passive, they are not any sort of official part of AIS operations. They are a fortuitous capability that was not designed into AIS, and took a lot of serious effort to get working (because they have such a wide field of view the sats see overlapping transmissions in the same slots, and must untangle them). If the sats can hear the AIS transmitter they will decode the transmissions and relay it to their commercial subscription services - unless they explicitly filter class B out. This capability is independent of class. There is nothing that the AIS transmitter has to do with the service to be heard, except to be loud enough.

The entire point of SOTDMA versus CSTDMA for S-AIS is the power level. 2 watts isn't generally enough to get heard. So yes, for pleasure boats S-AIS isn't an issue. You won't be reliably seen, if at all. If you install a SOTDMA class B unit there is every chance you will be seen by S-AIS. The ubiquity and cheapness of SOTDMA class B units is going see a lot more pleasure boats appearing in S-AIS as time goes on. There is no intrinsic difference between SOTDMA class B and class A except for power levels and the amount of information provided about the vessel. CSTDMA class B is basically the same as SOTDMA class B, but does not participate in slot reservation, and is restricted in power because of this.

Thanks. You were more polite than I was, and more erudite.

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47 minutes ago, axolotl said:

Dunce.  AIS-B is not satellite based and does not require a subscription.  Perhaps you're confusing AIS with satellite tracker systems like YellowBrick, Spot, Explorer+, etc.  Go over and stand in the corner for 60 minutes.

Actually it is you that is the dunce. EVERY class B AIS is satellite based. Nothing else is possible.

This may come as a bit of a shock to one with your level of arrogance but the VHF antenna that is integral to every AIS system also transmits UP as well as out. Amaaaaaazing. The signal going up has a range of hundreds of miles.  There are a whole lot of satellites up in the sky ( round about 50 ) that relay these transmissions to a base station.

While I'm here, in another post you also told everyone that AIS class B units come with an on/off switch for the transmit function. THEY DO NOT. Each of the Garmin, Furuno, Simrad and B & G units comes from the dealer without such a switch. A switch can be fitted but that is an after purchase decision for each boat owner to make. One would assume that anyone fitting this type of switch intends to use it.

How about you wander over to the dunce's corner, tell Rail Meat all is forgiven and give him a big hug. There's a good boy.

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1 minute ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Sorry, I think you have misunderstood my point.

The commercial sats are passive, they are not any sort of official part of AIS operations. They are a fortuitous capability that was not designed into AIS, and took a lot of serious effort to get working (because they have such a wide field of view the sats see overlapping transmissions in the same slots, and must untangle them). If the sats can hear the AIS transmitter they will decode the transmissions and relay it to their commercial subscription services - unless they explicitly filter class B out. This capability is independent of class. There is nothing that the AIS transmitter has to do with the service to be heard, except to be loud enough.

The entire point of SOTDMA versus CSTDMA for S-AIS is the power level. 2 watts isn't generally enough to get heard. So yes, for pleasure boats S-AIS isn't an issue. You won't be reliably seen, if at all. If you install a SOTDMA class B unit there is every chance you will be seen by S-AIS. The ubiquity and cheapness of SOTDMA class B units is going see a lot more pleasure boats appearing in S-AIS as time goes on. There is no intrinsic difference between SOTDMA class B and class A except for power levels and the amount of information provided about the vessel. CSTDMA class B is basically the same as SOTDMA class B, but does not participate in slot reservation, and is restricted in power because of this.

Well said.  The point is a Class-B STDMA devices, which I suspect were the devices used on all the S2H boats, are not generally reported by satellite reception due to weak transmission power;  they're  designed for boat to boat close in encounters.

That being said, many commercial entities have deployed S-AIS systems which are entirely reliable assuming a SOTDMA transmitter, have resolved the problem of the satellite's big footprint concerning reception (thousands of transmitters) and are a go to technology for commercial traffic. So the present state of advanced AIS is robust, not so much for a racing sailboat with a 3 year old AIS system.

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Dumb question if I may:

How do I determine if my Class B transponder is CSTDMA or SOTDMA?

The only tech reference I can find to the satellite side is its a 50 channel IEC 61108-1 compliant device? 

Edit: I can see SOTDMA is referenced to the IEC standard, but no CSDTMA? 

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Ok, reading up on it I could determine which unit I have is based on improved output power and TX time which has improved a lot to 5W and 5 sec from 2W and 30 sec. That confirms my previous question about uplinking to sat.

It's interesting my user manual, or tech specifications doesn't tell me:

- any reference to sat TX uplink, only VHF TX. No mention of output power, freq or modulation type at all.

- whether it is SOTDMA or CSDTMA. No output power of rate to reference to at all.

Interesting thread drift.

 

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1 hour ago, Crazy Cat said:

No they didn’t. They sailed an average race and got lucky that they were NOT in the lead on approach to Tasman Is. Comanche showed the other three that the transition was further off the coast than expected and they could all avoid it. Don’t forget that The Indian made WOXI look pretty stupid when she glided past around 0300 on Thursday in light winds to overtake them for the second time. 

I maintain that the AIS had nothing to do with the result. But I have never said that a breach of the rules is ok, as some here have made out. Totally agree that a proper sportsman would RAF. 

I’m amazed you think AIS could have not been a tactical advantage. If you’ve ever done any one design offshore races you would have spent a lot of time conjecturing whether a competitor has better/worse breeze or current. You would have been keeping an eye on their bearing swith a compass, putting the binoculars on them to look at the pressure in their kite etc etc etc.

Imagine if you have their accurate boatspeed and heading on a screen but they don’t have yours? 

You said WOXI sailed an ‘average ‘ race despite them winning. Does that mean the other boats were below average?

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21 minutes ago, Maw said:

How do I determine if my Class B transponder is CSTDMA or SOTDMA?

If it is much older than a year it will almost certainly be CSTDMA. SOTDMA class B is the new thing, you would know when you bought it. Otherwise just check the manufacturer's web site. Generally, I'd say if you didn't already know it was SOTDMA it is CSTDMA.

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38 minutes ago, savoir said:

VHF antenna that is integral to every AIS system also transmits UP as well as out.

I'm not sure "satellite based" means what you think it means.

Also most VHF antennas are less good at UP [sic] than out,

vhf23.jpg

And polarization might be tricky.

It's kinda amazing to me that it works at all satisfactorily with the sats.

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1 minute ago, Francis Vaughan said:

If it is much older than a year it will almost certainly be CSTDMA. SOTDMA class B is the new thing, you would know when you bought it. Otherwise just check the manufacturer's web site. Generally, I'd say if you didn't already know it was SOTDMA it is CSTDMA.

 Unit is 3 years old, so thanks Francis, that makes sense.

 

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11 minutes ago, weightless said:

I'm not sure "satellite based" means what you think it means.

Also most VHF antennas are less good at UP [sic] than out,

vhf23.jpg

And polarization might be tricky.

It's kinda amazing to me that it works at all satisfactorily with the sats.

Thanks weightless,

I just twigged to the AIS Satellite frequency is the VHF band, so it's using the VHF Transmitter to do both local VHF and as the satellite uplink. . 

Now I get it.

Thanks!

Edit: Interesting sidenote: my installation instructions says not to use an antenna at the top of the mast for satellite rx due to the motion. So that's why my rx gps antenna is separate and at waterline level. 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, weightless said:

I'm not sure "satellite based" means what you think it means.

Also most VHF antennas are less good at UP [sic] than out,

vhf23.jpg

And polarization might be tricky.

It's kinda amazing to me that it works at all satisfactorily with the sats.

You are so full of shit.  

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6 minutes ago, weightless said:

And polarization might be tricky.

It's kinda amazing to me that it works at all satisfactorily with the sats.

Well you drew an ideal dipole response, the little loaded whips they put on the masts are not quite so directional, but you are dead right. The sats are sucking on the aether pretty hard to get the signals. There is some seriously fine engineering going on. (I did read about how they handled polarization a while back, but have forgotten what they did. It might even be possible it can be used to help untangle the slot overlaps.)

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3 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:
10 minutes ago, weightless said:

I'm not sure "satellite based" means what you think it means.

Also most VHF antennas are less good at UP [sic] than out,

vhf23.jpg

And polarization might be tricky.

It's kinda amazing to me that it works at all satisfactorily with the sats.

You are so full of shit.  

Bummer. I thought that was all correct. What'd I fuck up?

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2 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Well you drew an ideal dipole response, the little loaded whips they put on the masts are not quite so directional, but you are dead right. The sats are sucking on the aether pretty hard to get the signals. There is some seriously fine engineering going on. (I did read about how they handled polarization a while back, but have forgotten what they did. It might even be possible it can be used to help untangle the slot overlaps.)

Polarisation scrambliing would fix it, but i dunno if the Class B units are that smart. 

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10 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

I’m amazed you think AIS could have not been a tactical advantage. If you’ve ever done any one design offshore races you would have spent a lot of time conjecturing whether a competitor has better/worse breeze or current. You would have been keeping an eye on their bearing swith a compass, putting the binoculars on them to look at the pressure in their kite etc etc etc.

Imagine if you have their accurate boatspeed and heading on a screen but they don’t have yours? 

You said WOXI sailed an ‘average ‘ race despite them winning. Does that mean the other boats were below average?

Tricky

Fair point, however we are splitting hairs over the (almost) real time info from AIS vs the same info coming at 10 minute intervals from Yellowbrick. We are not looking at an alternative where there is zero information available. Yes instant is always better, but did it make a difference to how the other 100s sailed their race? Don’t know. 

No, my point is that WOXI did not sail the boat out of its skin as others have suggested. If they had done so they should have won by a greater margin in those conditions. The other three, especially the Indian being way out of its comfort zone, sailed great races. Stuck in the light for 3 hours on Thursday Comanche held their position against the others proving they have improved their performance down range. Blackjack probably saile least well of all, given it was mostly their forecast. 

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I am a little surprised we apparently have so many who consider it OK to selecitvely follow the rules.

We could do worse than follow golf's lead where rules infractions are sometimes reported by viewers, and acted upon.

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1 minute ago, Essex said:

I am a little surprised we apparently have so many who consider it OK to selecitvely follow the rules.

We could do worse than follow golf's lead where rules infractions are sometimes reported by viewers, and acted upon.

Do you really think Trump has had a bad lie in the rough?  

But you're right, I've seen pro golfers take a penalty (many $$$$$$) for incidental infractions.  

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11 minutes ago, weightless said:

Bummer. I thought that was all correct. What'd I fuck up?

Sorry, I'm just in a pissy mood.  Your picture was fine, but what is the gain on a cell phone and how does our government listen?  VHF on boats is a cakewalk.  

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4 minutes ago, Essex said:

I am a little surprised we apparently have so many who consider it OK to selecitvely follow the rules.

We could do worse than follow golf's lead where rules infractions are sometimes reported by viewers, and acted upon.

 

In the interests of playing the game fairly any rules broken that give an unfair advantage is cheating.

To unintentionally or mistakenly miss something that has no bearing on the outcome  can be given a discretionary pass. Lets say WOXI forgot their v sheet or their first aid kit was missing a bandage. Would you happily disqualify them? If the answer is yes then you are preoccupied with right and wrong which is a sure sign of arrested development.

I think it is a major issue not because of non compliance but because of the tactical advantage 

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A interesting point on the topic of not knowing if you have a failure of AIS TX from antenna or coax cabling.

The DSC function on your VHF receives at one of the AIS frequencies.

So, a simple DSC query of a boat,  and a successful response, would prove the antenna and coax were not a problem for AIS transmission for that boat.

Would it not?

 

 

 

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51 minutes ago, Maw said:

Dumb question if I may:

How do I determine if my Class B transponder is CSTDMA or SOTDMA?

The only tech reference I can find to the satellite side is its a 50 channel IEC 61108-1 compliant device? 

Edit: I can see SOTDMA is referenced to the IEC standard, but no CSDTMA? 

 

If the unit has a 5w transmit power level it will be SOTDMA and 2w will be CSTDMA.

Eeeezzzeeee

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4 minutes ago, savoir said:

 

If the unit has a 5w transmit power level it will be SOTDMA and 2w will be CSTDMA.

Eeeezzzeeee

Yep, I got you Savoir, I'd missed the VHF output was what I was looking for. Mine only shows the output power in dbm (33 ie: 2W), so I glossed over it.  

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11 minutes ago, Crazy Cat said:

Tricky

Fair point, however we are splitting hairs over the (almost) real time info from AIS vs the same info coming at 10 minute intervals from Yellowbrick. We are not looking at an alternative where there is zero information available. Yes instant is always better, but did it make a difference to how the other 100s sailed their race? Don’t know. 

No, my point is that WOXI did not sail the boat out of its skin as others have suggested. If they had done so they should have won by a greater margin in those conditions. The other three, especially the Indian being way out of its comfort zone, sailed great races. Stuck in the light for 3 hours on Thursday Comanche held their position against the others proving they have improved their performance down range. Blackjack probably saile least well of all, given it was mostly their forecast. 

We can beg to differ on how well or badly each crew sailed then.

The website trackers are deliberately set up to be of less tactical advantage. There are other posts up thread pointing to the poor information that the yellowbrick  provides compared to AIS. 

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10 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Sorry, I'm just in a pissy mood.  Your picture was fine, but what is the gain on a cell phone and how does our government listen?  VHF on boats is a cakewalk.  

No worries.

Way beyond my ken and OT, but I didn't think the signal guys could intercept regular cell signals from space. Can they?

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14 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

 

In the interests of playing the game fairly any rules broken that give an unfair advantage is cheating.

To unintentionally or mistakenly miss something that has no bearing on the outcome  can be given a discretionary pass. Lets say WOXI forgot their v sheet or their first aid kit was missing a bandage. Would you happily disqualify them? If the answer is yes then you are preoccupied with right and wrong which is a sure sign of arrested development.

I think it is a major issue not because of non compliance but because of the tactical advantage 

I agree with that perspective.  

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46 minutes ago, weightless said:

I'm not sure "satellite based" means what you think it means.

Also most VHF antennas are less good at UP [sic] than out,

vhf23.jpg

And polarization might be tricky.

It's kinda amazing to me that it works at all satisfactorily with the sats.

It’s line of sight. The trick is the satellite is NOT overhead but near the horizon. 

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10 minutes ago, weightless said:

No worries.

Way beyond my ken and OT, but I didn't think the signal guys could intercept regular cell signals from space. Can they?

I can't comment but you may have seen my boat, it's called YES.  

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2 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

It’s line of sight. The trick is the satellite is NOT overhead but near the horizon. 

FFS, it's an antenna gain pattern.  The lines do nothing but show the strength at that angle.  Plenty of stuff heading north.  

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6 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

FFS, it's an antenna gain pattern.  The lines do nothing but show the strength at that angle.  Plenty of stuff heading north.  

For any “gain” the “vertical” is necessarily “mathematically”  0. Arguably a boat undersail is never vertical and at 20 degrees heel there’s significant energy. 

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14 minutes ago, LionessRacing said:

For any “gain” the “vertical” is necessarily “mathematically”  0. Arguably a boat undersail is never vertical and at 20 degrees heel there’s significant energy. 

Accountant?  Sorry, still in a pissy mood but you don't get it.  

Think of a rock concert, can you hear them backstage?

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32 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Think of a rock concert, can you hear them backstage?

Getting awfully geeky here.

For an ideal dipole the gain along the length of the dipole in indeed zero. Ideal means - in a vacuum, dipole has zero diameter, etc etc. The real world gain along the length of a dipole does still drop off significantly. 

Sound waves can also cancel out in exactly the same manner, but again, you need a dipole radiator. Most speakers are not dipoles. Certainly not PA systems. There do exist dipole speakers, and they have essentially no output side on. This is used to control room reflections and they are something of a darling of certain audiophiles. There is good theory behind the idea, and some significant downsides as well. The interested could check out Stanley Linkwitz's designs. He is a very respected EE, his ideas are not audiofoolery. (Unlike a lot else you might see put there.)

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5 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Getting awfully geeky here.

For an ideal dipole the gain along the length of the dipole in indeed zero. Ideal means - in a vacuum, dipole has zero diameter, etc etc. The real world gain along the length of a dipole does still drop off significantly. 

Sound waves can also cancel out in exactly the same manner, but again, you need a dipole radiator. Most speakers are not dipoles. Certainly not PA systems. There do exist dipole speakers, and they have essentially no output side on. This is used to control room reflections and they are something of a darling of certain audiophiles. There is good theory behind the idea, and some significant downsides as well. The interested could check out Stanley Linkwitz's designs. He is a very respected EE, his ideas are not audiofoolery. (Unlike a lot else you might see put there.)

I was talking to the masses and I am still in a pissy mood, I designed antennas from the ground up.  For me, it was always figuring out what we needed and finding out the closest thing the military had spent millions on.  Not that hard.  A boat being heard from space is not a challenge.  What's the gain on your EPIRB?

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3 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I was talking to the masses and I am still in a pissy mood, I designed antennas from the ground up.  For me, it was always figuring out what we needed and finding out the closest thing the military had spent millions on.  Not that hard.  A boat being heard from space is not a challenge.  What's the gain on your EPIRB?

Wow. Not many bonafide antenna guys around these days. 

Gain on the EPIRB is of course close to zip. 

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26 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Wow. Not many bonafide antenna guys around these days. 

Gain on the EPIRB is of course close to zip. 

I'm not an antenna guy, I was a system engineer for many synthetic aperture radar (SAR, yes unfortunate) builds.  I was the guy that got blamed but luckily worked with great people who for the most part made me look good.  For the old timers out there, I literally had my CIA customer on the phone asking if another million would ensure our test would go well.  It was the 80s.  I said not needed and we delivered in spades.

Apologies to all, a bad day and no reason to take it out here.

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I have no idea if this story is plausible, anyone? Can a fried splitter receive but not transmit at all?

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28 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm not an antenna guy, I was a system engineer for many synthetic aperture radar (SAR, yes unfortunate) builds.  I was the guy that got blamed but luckily worked with great people who for the most part made me look good.  For the old timers out there, I literally had my CIA customer on the phone asking if another million would ensure our test would go well.  It was the 80s.  I said not needed and we delivered in spades.

Apologies to all, a bad day and no reason to take it out here.

Happy new year to you Cal , no probs, we’ve all been there. I hope your day gets better.

Im going sailing to celebrate the new year in, nice easy reach off the foreshore and watch the fireworks. Temp is in the mid 20’s and 10-15 kn onshore, little cloud and a quarter moon.

I’ll be thinking of you lot as I raise a glass and welcome the new year in sailing down the moonpath. 

 

 

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4 minutes ago, paps49 said:

I have no idea if this story is plausible, anyone? Can a fried splitter receive but not transmit at all?

There were a number of things that could have happened that could have killed the AIS transmission, and yes, I can see ways this could be one of them. One point about splitters is that they give priority to the VHF transmitter, and if this mechanism goes awry, it can stop the AIS transmissions. The fact that they got a system wide reset at the time does lend credence to what he says. These sorts of failures can involve cascading weirdnesses that you only realise are possible once you rat through the entire chain and have an Ah-ha moment when the pieces fall into place. It isn't impossible that a proper reset of the splitter could have got it working. These sort of failure modes are a nightmare, and keep safety critical guys awake at night. Having your hardware glitch into an illegal state and lock up is hard to test for, and hard to know you have got right.

Overall I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. 

He has clearly thought long and hard about the entire thing, and the explanation given has been the subject of careful thought. 

The lingering questions and poor behaviour by just about everyone concerned don't go away. But I'm happy that there was no intent to cheat like this. 

I hope there are a few useful lessons learnt. 

 

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49 minutes ago, Varan said:

One quote:

"That was when I made the comments about AIS not being mandatory under the Col Regs for ships at sea - which it isn't generally also for boats our size [or under 300 tonnes]. My comments were taken out of context, I was referring to the Col Regs, where it is clear that AIS is a voluntary navigational aid."

Yeh right.  That quote is probably one of the most egregious but there are plenty of others.  As one comment on the Sail-World site stated: "Will Mark Richards ever learn when to shut up."

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1 minute ago, nimbus said:

Will Mark Richards ever learn when to shut up.

Exactly. He is his own worst enemy sometimes. I know people who would have reacted exactly as he did - basically with a stream of unthinking BS that says there was no fault, all delivered before the brain has found first gear.

I find it interesting how he has included a public acceptance of last year's result in his statement. Still a little barbed, but at least accepting. Maybe he is mellowing. Maybe.

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49 minutes ago, Varan said:

From the article..

Richards did not attend the Hearing in person. "I hate protests”

no wonder if the crap and contradictions he voiced in that interview was how he would conduct himself in a protest, the jury would have him bent over and pants around his ankles 

And the hide to claim he is part of creating the great Oatley Legacy in that article is a insult to them. Get rid of him

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7 hours ago, olaf hart said:

This whole clusterfuck is another good example of trial by social media, like the Me Too stuff.

BJ owner has a whinge, media pick it up, BJ owner doesn’t protest, and Oats is fried in the court of public opinion.

A lesson for us all, don’t make a positive statement unless you have proof and are prepared to give evidence.

 

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36 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

 

There were a number of things that could have happened that could have killed the AIS transmission, and yes, I can see ways this could be one of them. One point about splitters is that they give priority to the VHF transmitter, and if this mechanism goes awry, it can stop the AIS transmissions. The fact that they got a system wide reset at the time does lend credence to what he says. These sorts of failures can involve cascading weirdnesses that you only realise are possible once you rat through the entire chain and have an Ah-ha moment when the pieces fall into place. It isn't impossible that a proper reset of the splitter could have got it working. These sort of failure modes are a nightmare, and keep safety critical guys awake at night. Having your hardware glitch into an illegal state and lock up is hard to test for, and hard to know you have got right.

Overall I'm inclined to give him the benefit of the doubt on this. 

He has clearly thought long and hard about the entire thing, and the explanation given has been the subject of careful thought. 

The lingering questions and poor behaviour by just about everyone concerned don't go away. But I'm happy that there was no intent to cheat like this. 

I hope there are a few useful lessons learnt. 

 

 

You are being too kind. I call BS on the whole thing.

Think about the end of the race. From when they docked ( I think it was about 8.40 am ) to when the AIS came on was roughly 40 minutes. During that time there was hugging and kissing and back slapping and champagne spraying and media interviews and free beer and stuff. Meanwhile some dedicated little gnome ignored all that and went below to fix the " fried " splitter. Suuuuure. Wouldn't any self respecting gnome get stuck in to the free grog and fix the splitter later ?  The AIS came on at around 9.20 am and worked perfectly after that. It transmitted and left a track and all that stuff.

On the other hand perhaps mister Vila just flicked a switch.

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5 minutes ago, savoir said:

On the other hand perhaps mister Vila just flicked a switch.

I'm not kidding about a system that has latched into an illegal internal state that is cleared by a reset. The splitter probably has a tiny PLC as a controller, and this is just the kind of thing that can happen. It shouldn't. Doesn't mean it doesn't. 

We will never know, but the technical plausibility is there. 

There are a whole raft of subsidiary questions, mostly of a wider nature than just this incident. Intrinsic reliability, or lack of it, in AIS is one of them. Poor behaviour of all concerned another.

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I did have a giggle over this comment.

"I'm an amateur sailor. I do it because I enjoy it. The effort this year I put into this program, out of my own time is huge."

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The best part of the start coverage was MR bitching about being wake bombed by one of his own Palm Beach monsters off the heads, saying he had to put something about boating etiquette in the Palm Beach owners manual.

A bit late, but serves him right..

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https://www.sail-world.com/news/213456/?fbclid=IwAR1meUFPdc9fecLpwg9NWFRuzPhCPX5ZqyZJfFTzAAWUl7l3feOjQ6_xnlw

Great interview. Candid and honest. A lot of it is crap from people who are jealous of MR and all he has achieved. Does he have an ego? Hell yes he does. Is he arrogant? Maybe, but being at the top for as long as he has will do that to you. Has he earned the right to have an ego? Damn right. The guy has done something no one else has done, as has the whole Wild Oats team. That team deserves everything they have achieved. But still, the court of public opinion will continue with the fake outrage.

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1 minute ago, frant said:

Alternatively look at pathological liar and narcissistic personality disorder , There is a consistent inconsistency in every version of events.They just might have lost the respect that those achievements should have brought. 

They are just the core requirements of any successful CEO today...

Ever worked in marketing?

 

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23 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

The best part of the start coverage was MR bitching about being wake bombed by one of his own Palm Beach monsters off the heads, saying he had to put something about boating etiquette in the Palm Beach owners manual.

A bit late, but serves him right..

I thought all powerboat manuals obliged their owners to bomb all other sailors, kayakers, rowers, kids in optis etc etc. 

It’s a sign of prestige and power apparently.

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18 minutes ago, frant said:

Alternatively look at pathological liar and narcissistic personality disorder , There is a consistent inconsistency in every version of events.They just might have lost the respect that those achievements should have brought. 

Those who matter will respect their achievements, those that don't matter will continue screaming their crack pot tin foil hat conspiracies from the rafters attempting to diminish what is a well deserved legacy. 

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You check the quality of AIS transmission by using ProAISII, which will give you the SWR of the AIS VHF output. It will reveal any problems on the output side of the system, whether they're splitter, cable or antenna.

ProAISII works with all SRT-based AIS systems, which I believe means every commercially available AIS transceiver built.

 

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26 minutes ago, frant said:

Alternatively look at pathological liar and narcissistic personality disorder , There is a consistent inconsistency in every version of events.They just might have lost the respect that those achievements should have brought. 

Hang on! This thread is not about Donald Trump! 

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17 minutes ago, frant said:

In that case stop crying about lack of respect, but respect is earned when achievement does not appear tainted. Unfortunately sadly lacking of late.

And they have earned respect. The latest win is only tainted to those who can't let go of their jealousy of Mark Richards.

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4 minutes ago, frant said:

Speaking of tin foil hat conspiracy theories was that the cameraman’s tin foil hat that fried the AIS splitter by redirection of microwaves?

 

 Crackpot lead hats would be more useful when complaining about cheats.  Get some out of a kingpost. 

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From the interview:

Subsequently Wild Oats XI found that there is a website that can be used to check AIS transmission strength, however, they were not aware of it at the time. 

Are they seriously expecting us to believe of all the people on Wild Oats X! there wasn't one who had heard of Marine Traffic? Bullshit!

The whole interview is complete crap, written by very poor PR people.

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There is a race near me in the other hemisphere that I've raced in a few times.  It's no Sydney Hobart but kind of a big deal around here - about 200 boats.  They use a medium large Navy Boat for the start boat.  Each time I have found myself too close to that boat my wind speed increases to over 100 knots (and I might still be on the L1!) and comes from every direction.  But somehow we manage and things return to normal after we get clear about 1/4 mile - sort of.  The instruments all reset to their factory defaults.  That was when I started writing down the offsets so we could re-calibrate everything quickly.  That Navy boat has something going on!  And it confuses the hell out of the electronics on my boat when I get too close.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

Those who matter will respect their achievements, those that don't matter will continue screaming their crack pot tin foil hat conspiracies from the rafters attempting to diminish what is a well deserved legacy. 

It’s obvious you are s fan of arrogance. I first saw MR at the Sanctuary Cove boat show some years ago ago walking to an interview. A young kid asked for him to sign a hat. “Not now I’m needed for an interview” true!

He thinks he is bigger than the sport and his behaviour since hasnt changed my opinion on that. Sad that

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2 hours ago, Forourselves said:

But still, the court of public opinion will continue with the fake outrage

Make no mistake oh precious Oatley troll.

The fucking outrage is real.

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