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2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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2 hours ago, trt131 said:

Jack, thats not what I am talking about.  A hint (as you love to say) SI 41.1

WOXI protest was 41.2 going past Gabo with no HF Report acknowledgement to their 41.1 Bass Strait "fit for purpose" assessment. Ran's protest was 41.1(a) which is HF on that Bass Strait "fit for purpose" list (but as it was working for mandatary call their assessment it was).

Only things not protested so far is other  things on that Bass Strait " fit for purpose" list like crew etc. Those two protests have 41.1 all covered, so not sure what aspect you are talking about.

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4 hours ago, lydia said:

After that I figured if we could not comply with the green cape radio rule we would just keep going and do the physics later

from memory at the time I worked out if you were between 87 and 105 miles south east of jbw you where not probably going to land a transmission during the day on the required freq  and that the propagation charts were a bit unusual for that time of you

Lydia that would be pretty safe bet providing you contacted someone else as WOXI did. HF Position Sched failure records to JBW alone would confirm you were on safe ground. 

2010 Race was just after bottom of "sunspot cycle" and though not bad was spiking up towards peak in 2013/14. Race just gone has actually just marked the full cycle again.

BTW the decision to keep costs down by still allowing HF Voice in Aust (DSC in WS Spec Regs) is admirable but this day and age why they don't allow DSC HF to be also used by those that have DSC sets and prefer being GMDSS compliant escapes me. Position Scheds and Green Cape assessment (with acknowledgement) could all be done at the push of a button direct to JBW with much higher probability of hitting the mark.

By forcing everyone onto voice the RC are actually promoting Green Cape protests.

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Faaarck I did not give it too much thought at the time but sounds like I was on the money js

then again have been using hf since the early days of pentabase

pity their hf radio manual is not printed anymore

 

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3 hours ago, mad said:

I doubt it will ever change the result,

Doubt??..more like assured no change in result.

However it's like "fat shaming" people who refuse to lose weight.

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1 hour ago, lydia said:

Faaarck I did not give it too much thought at the time but sounds like I was on the money js

then again have been using hf since the early days of pentabase

pity their hf radio manual is not printed anymore

 

Penta was one of the best resources for serious sailors, not the least because you could actually rely on them.

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4 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Are you suggesting that common sense will overcome the $?

Hell no. But here you are switching the debate to one of Ego and Greed.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, lydia said:

then again have been using hf since the early days of pentabase

pity their hf radio manual is not printed anymore

Penta Comstat on mid NSW coast run by Derek and his wife Jeanine ceased "voice" operation well over a decade ago. Many racers having done radio checks and deliveries would know their voices well. Like many "not for profits" specialised marine safety and communication radio stations, around the world, their closure a combination of no succession plan and changing technology the cause. Derek and Jeanine were soley responsible for setting up HF communications for long distance offshore racing in Australia about 40 years ago without the need for a radio relay vessel having to shadow the fleet and pass the information back to the Club.   

This including the S2H return fleet by securing Government approval to a range of frequencies so racers and cruisers alike in the SW Pacific didn't have to battle for airways space with commercial traffic. Their voices that many round the world racers and single handers for around 30 years got to know for getting weather information or just passing on messages to family and friends. One year I was able to get 1/4 time World Cup scores from the middle of the Atlantic.

It is an interesting case study in technology where it is the Internet that has changed communications at sea today, still using SSB HF, but without the need for the human voice. In mid 90's and the birth of the Internet, a young Californian Electrical Engineer, who went on to become one of the World's, if not top offshore race Navigator, developed a system called SailMail relying on SSB HF and a modem. That guy is Stan Honey. Today SailMail a "members not for profit" has a network of 20 or so DSC enabled HF SSB stations around the world, where Penta Comstat was one.

Jeanine unfortunately passed away around 6 years ago I think. Their contribution to offshore racing and cruising communications supplementing that of official government infrastructure was quite amazing. 

BTW this also gives you some background to why the S2H race requires JBW to shadow the race fleet over and above other safety concerns, by insisting "voice" SSB HF is used. The only major offshore race in the world that does that.   

My suggestion for reading up to get the best out of DSC SSB HF is a range of books written by Commander Terry Sparkes and available on Amazon.

                 

Penta Comstat_Derek.jpg

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Js before it was penta constat it was penta base btw as it started in barnyards outboard motor dealship which sold Chrysler outboards and the Chrysler logo gave rise to the “penta” moniker

there is boating trivia for today

we still have tas maritime which of course could not exist anywhere but tasmania

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2 hours ago, lydia said:

Js before it was penta constat it was penta base btw as it started in barnyards outboard motor dealship which sold Chrysler outboards and the Chrysler logo gave rise to the “penta” moniker

there is boating trivia for today...

So Chrysler's badge the 5 pointed Penta Star. Learn something everyday. Lucky not a British Leyland dealership with P76's out the front and they adopted that as their callsign.

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Yep

there was a time when had to carry RDF sets too

using those would fuck a few so called modern navigators 

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12 minutes ago, lydia said:

Yep

there was a time when had to carry RDF sets too

using those would fuck a few so called modern navigators 

Most modern naviguessers wouldn’t know what RDF means much less how it works.

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30 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

Derek’s gravelly voice was a feature of Australian offshore racing in the 70/80/90s

Not just racing but also importantly deliveries too.

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25 minutes ago, lydia said:

And numerous rescues before AMSA took everything over

I wouldn’t actually agree that AMSA took anything over that implies they are in control.

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

So Chrysler's badge the 5 pointed Penta Star. Learn something everyday. Lucky not a British Leyland dealership with P76's out the front and they adopted that as their callsign.

Yes the P76's went on to be known as the P38.! Only half the car. 

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14 hours ago, hoppy said:

Shit I used one of them when I was naviguessing a boat back to Melbourne from Devonport in the 80's. We were island hopping in day time, so I just used it for play.

Think the last time I used an RDF in anger was the delivery home after the ‘83 S2H, SatNav (the predecessor to GPS) was in its infancy.

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15 hours ago, lydia said:

Yep

there was a time when had to carry RDF sets too

using those would fuck a few so called modern navigators 

I used RDF in the ‘78 S2H and ‘79 Great Circle (circumnavigation of Tassie) Race plus associated deliveries to/from Adelaide.....

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41 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Think the last time I used an RDF in anger was the delivery home after the ‘83 S2H, SatNav (the predecessor to GPS) was in its infancy.

RDF still used in Aust very late compared to the rest of the world as it missed out on the ground based equivalent of GPS being  DECCA and LORAN. Like GPS methodology a radio pulse from a known "master" location, followed by a pulse from a number of "slave" stations. The delay used to work out the distance to each of the slaves and so providing a fix.

I wouldn't call 84 the infancy of SatNav more like late 70's. By mid 80's had a full number of sats up. In the beginning you were lucky to get 2 fixes a day.

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Got to use both Decca and LORAN systems, useful concept for ocean transits but SatNav certainly made it easier. Don’t even want to mention that I can still (and do) use a sextant because it makes me feel old

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12 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Suck it up Sock... you would feel worse if you were unpacking a Davis Quadrant in anger.

 

2008-March-3290-img-3.jpg

I’ve got a backstaff stored away somewhere, only used once!

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On 3/19/2019 at 10:25 AM, jack_sparrow said:

AIS TX TEST #5 ????

In the meantime there is still one to go. Get this one and bundle up with #1 - #4 and you have the beer.

Hints....easiest of all to guess what it is and to employ. Also more obvious and accurate in a tracked race

I have invited weeks ago, this last one.

On 3/22/2019 at 6:12 PM, jack_sparrow said:

Bump....I've done my bit, time you pricks did yours or are you as dumb as Richo??

I have then bumped and begged for days but not a whisper. Something is not right? Fuck it.

 

People I’m very disappointed. Like @Francis Vaughan you are an electrical engineer are you not? @lydiayou say you have decades of all things Radio propagation experience but not a peep? Others chiming in here like @Sidecar and the @TheUltimateSockPuppet also with decades of experience it seems with ancient RDFs made out of good English Bakelite, but not a word….but you lot can’t get AIS RX TEST #5. You can't all be surely tech blockheads like Richo?

Have you forgotten already?

Putting aside the damming nature of AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4,  don't you remember one of many famous Mark Richard's quotes as follows. in Sail_World.com/nz 31 Dec Interview where he says; We were receiving AIS, when you are receiving, you also believe that you are transmitting OK as well” and “The AIS had nothing to show that we weren't transmitting, and as far as we were concerned that was end of story. Our AIS was on for the whole of the race," he reiterated. It is noted no mention is made by Mark Richard’s of WOXI’s AIS RX or ‘Receive” capability being compromised by “distance.”

However that then must also be read in conjunction with Sails Magazine Feb/March 2019_WOXI where it states via an exclusive interview with a WOXI commissioned “highly respected marine electronics expert” saying WOXI “was transmitting on low power due to an antenna fault – high VSWR.”  Putting aside VSWR as an "outcome" for AIS TX issues, there is  no inkling to the "cause" and that cause is possibly is not related to AIS RX. The AIS TX TEST #4 summary upthread indicates as follows. For AIS TX Power to be reduced to 0.5 nm that correlates to a 1 million division of AIS TX Power or -57 dB which is essentially catastrophic for the same Antenna used for both TX and RX.         

You have one last chance guys. Fill in below Section D. …………… and Section E. PRACTICAL APPLICATION ON THE RACE COURSE OF RX AIS FOR AIS TX and you have the case of @Fiji Bitter. I really can't give you any more Radio Tutorials and hints than this. 

AIS TX TEST #5 – VHF AIS RX RANGE DEGRADED  

Putting aside the failure or degradation in AIS ‘Receive” (RX) signal as expressed in AIS information received being nothing or at a reduced range immediately telling you have a significant AIS problem, it can potentially provide some guidance to your “Transmitted” (TX) signal strength under certain circumstances. However there is less probability of a TX fault being expressed as “Received” (RX) fault, therefore it is stressed this AIS TX Test #5 is the least reliable of the five (5) AIS TX Tests and should be treated accordingly.

Again this AIS TX TEST #5 no different than #1 - #4 where anyone on a race boat holding the necessary Radio Qualifications on board as mandated by any Offshore Race Rules in the world and with some practical experience will understand everything I say here. For those that don’t, I have articulated here the concepts of Radio Frequency (RF) propagation and in particular VHF/AIS so they too are able to understand fully this AIS TX Test # 5 when fully explained and still coming.

A. PRELUDE – RF WAVE CONCEPTS

First to explain the difference between RF (Radio Frequency) RX and TX signal strength using two “water analogy’s” one in a pipe the other ocean to explain RF Wave Concepts. I could have very easily introduced these to more thoroughly explain VHF/AIS propagation for AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4, however I have elected to apply them to AIS RX Test #5 where it is essential they are first understood. AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4 are pretty simple and where #1 - #3 are “idiot proof” and #1 an automatic Visual Alarm and in all likelihood also an Audible Alarm AIS TX is degraded to the extent of failure. 

1. Electricity, Ohms Law & Water Analogy

Firstly the “propagation” of RF signals has nothing directly to do with this as you will find out. However it provides one of two helpful water analogy’s to understand how a RF signals are created, then received and decoded.

This first water analogy many would be familiar with being the analogy between electricity and hydraulic or water flow. It is noted this analogy is simplistic and puts aside things such things as electricity, be it AC or DC, is a closed loop and hydraulics are open source. Also while both their velocity is proportional to Current, water only experiences drag via friction at the pipes inner surface, while for electricity it occurs at all points within the metal conductor.

Voltage is the amount of “potential energy” between two (2) points on an electrical circuit. The source of this “electrical energy” on a sailboat is either stored in a battery or produced by an Alternator or Generator. For “water energy” it is either the height of a water storage reservoir or produced by a water pump.

This is where Voltage is represented by “water pressure.” Then electrical Current (Amps) by “water flow” over a period of time and to that “water flow” any Resistance (Ohm’s) governed by the electrical cable or water pipes size or any obstacles that alter that Current flow. That resistance for a water pipe could be an undersized pipe size, tap or an obstruction in the pipe. In an electrical circuit it could be a cable gauge incorrectly too small, an electrical “resister” inserted specifically to the change the Voltage on the down line side of the circuit (say 24v to 12v DC), or an electrical fault such as a frayed cable, bad electrical connection or moisture in the circuit, the bugbear of sailboats.

So the lower the Resistance the easier for Volts to kick more Amps or “water flow” through the circuit. Introduce a higher Resistance makes it harder for Volts or “water pressure” to kick the same Amps or “water flow” through the circuit at the same Volts or “water pressure”. This following Figure 1. or diagram of three (3) SA Posters who are called Volts, Amps and Ohms may better explain this.

Ohms-law.jpg.55b6a7cffcf3c2eeb33b8f5fad39e752.jpg

Figure 1. Ohms Law Diagram

BTW you can nominate your own but I’m putting up @madas the "Resistor/Mr Ohm" by not understanding like many that this “WOXO Protest Thread” is about “fat shaming” all involved, to hopefully prevent a repeat, not changing an outcome. The 9 Finger Outcome is up and cast in bronze. As for "Current/Mr Amp' maybe the Jury is out, is it @hoppya fat fuck or very fit and got some power to be "Mr Volt", who knows? :-) 

That hydraulic analogy is basis to a German physicist George Ohm who Ohms Law circa early 18th century was that between “flow” (Current) through an electrical conductor is directly proportional to the potential difference (Voltage) and more specifically Resistance (Ohms) is constant independent of Current (Amps). So the following formulas were born.  V = 1A X I (1 Ohm) or I = V/R  or R = V/I.

2. Electricity, Ohms Law & the Steam Engine

A fellow called James Watt a Scotsman in 1776 (6 years after Captain Cook landed in Australia with no Radio let alone AIS) did much like Marconi did over a decade later improving and commercialising Teslas (Marconi got the credit) earlier invention called Radio. This was by improving and commercialising the early 18th century Newcomen Steam Engine and yes Watt gets the big invention credit.

As an aside Watt brought about the 18th Century Industrial Revolution first in Great Britain and via first sail driven Baltimore Clipper 3 mast square rigged ships from the middle third of the 18th Century, built for speed and that changed world trade scouring the planet for raw product like wool to convert in Great Britain’s new steam driven mills, though the opium trade was more profitable in this period, particularly for less principled US owners of Clippers. The irony is these Clippers were the world’s first Race Boats and while at sea used whale oil to light the ship and they communicated via signal flags. Yet already in this period electricity had been invented and shortly afterwards radio, yet they were the last to see both. As for AIS it took another       

So named after Watt is a unit of power called Watts (W) which is a unit of power as a derived unit of one (1) joule per second. A “Joule” named after the Englishman James Joule in late 19th century who established the “energy transferred” or work required to move an object when a force of one (1) Newton (yes that guy) in direction of motion trough a distance of (one) 1 metre or 1 newton meter (N.m). How does that relate to electricity? A Joule is also the “energy dissipated as heat” when an electric Current of one (1) Amp passes through a Resistance of one (1) Ohm for one (1) second. Hey presto we are back to Ohms Law, but now ignoring Resistance (Ohms) as it is a known constant. As you can see many people come up with the ingredients for a just one cake.

The above Ohms Law formula then is then of more interest in RF Radio Wave analysis as follows:

Power (W) = Current (A) X Voltage (V) OR if the Resistance is known Current (A) = √ (Power (W) X Resistance (Ohms) ). There are many calculators On-Line to save you the maths.

How does this relate to AIS RF Propagation and Receiving?

A RF Wave is “energy” in two different states between its source and being received. An “electric field” converts to an “electromagnetic field” that is propagated through the air then converts into an “electrical field” at the receipt end. It is the last conversion which we are most interested in for AIS RX TEST #5 and explained as follows    

3. RF and Ocean Wave Analogy

Radio Frequency (RF) electromagnetic (EM) waves which carry “radiant energy” can be similarly explained using the most intuitive example being waves on the ocean. A wave most commonly is a disturbance caused by wind that “propagates” or moves that wave from the place it was created to another. In other words in RF terms between a VHF/AIS TX Transceiver and a RX Transceiver. Water waves on the ocean exhibit characteristics no different to RF waves such as amplitude, period, frequency and energy. Radio waves can only rely on line of sight, however like an ocean wave they do also and can only refract around obstacles or in the case of the Ionosphere like a rocky shore bounce off them. I won’t go into detail but if you imagine a seagull sitting in the ocean where a series of waves pass beneath it, the concepts such as RF Frequency, Wavelength and speed of Propagation can be conceptualised better understood as shown in this diagram or Figure 2 showing a seagull in relation to the “passing waves” and the “static ocean water” it sits upon.

Figure_17_09_02a.jpg.23d39d5b369bb5c32a8a40289ba3d52e.jpg

Figure 2. RF EM Wave Ocean Analogy Diagram

Then a diagram or Figure 3 of two different RF waves having different Frequency, Wavelength and Propagation characteristics via EM "radiant energy" of varying power, one being VHF and the other say HF. 

972173379_images(6).png.1722051dc433f78d15071bbbeb735571.png

Figure 3. RF EM Wave Comparison Diagram say VHF versus HF

Then a diagram, Figure 4 of VHF and HF waves having different Frequency, Wavelength and Propagation characteristics via EM "radiant energy" of varying power and their maximum propagation. Refer to AIS TX TEST #4 for examples of VHF. 

654983029_images(5).png.4bba421b6ed3518a58dc563ed0c53285.png

Figure 4. RF EM Max Propagation Comparison VHF versus HF

Then simply as a comparison to how VHF and HF are “propagated” and received on a sailboat where higher frequency VHF is of line of sight and lower frequency HF employs the Ionosphere and sometimes even the earth’s surface to bounce HF signals very long distances around the globe. This is shown in this comparative diagram, Figure 5Refer to AIS TX TEST #4 for examples of VHF.

ssb3.jpg.4eca53bc66bee622cda8c882f5cb7e23.jpg

Figure 5. Comparison of VHF and HF Propagation

The RX outcome for any Radio Transceiver including AIS is just like that waiting seagull or a sailboat bobbing up and down in the ocean waiting for the next ocean wave to hit at a particular frequency. Another way of explaining it is Einstein said; “Radio is like a very long cat, you pull its tail in New York and its head meows in Los Angeles.” 

So there is little you can do other than rely on signal “propagation” at the source (how hard the cats tail is pulled) except for a few things related to Antenna installation and its impact upon the RX Sensitivity (see AIS TX Test # 4 for full explanation) of the AIS Receiver (or the cats head and how loud he meows) and noted as follows.

B. HOW AIS RX SIGNALS ARE RECEIVED

With the above Electricity and RF EM water/ocean concepts and analogies in mind, the following technical explanation hopefully should be better understood.

1. Movement of RF EM Waves  

To use the RF Waves Ocean Waves analogy in Section A3 above to better explain the movement of RF EM through the air and then when caught by the Antenna and guided by the coaxial antenna cable to the AIS Receiver. Ocean waves move constantly forward through the “medium” being the ocean water which just moves up and down (as measured by the seagull) in the one spot. It doesn’t move forward so has no “flow.” Likewise firstly EM Waves move constantly forward in that “medium” called “the air,” which doesn’t move forward. Secondly in the Antenna cable in exactly the same manner. However the conductors in the antenna cable is now the “medium” which stays in one spot and the Current “wriggles within those conductors just like the ocean water. It doesn’t move forward and has no “current” or “flow,” the antenna cable just contains and directs it.

So referring to the Electricity, Ohms Law & Water Analogy in Section A1 above you can see RF EM Waves move forward or flow completely differently to electricity. Electricity has a Current (Amps) or “flow” of water as the “medium” in a pipe. On the other hand RF EM Waves have no Current (Amps) as the “medium” being the air or antenna cable has no “flow” as represented by the ocean water. The wave is not the “medium.”

The Electricity, Ohms Law & Water Analogy in Section A1 above is then used to understand the conversion process of a RF EM Field to an Electrical Field that the AIS Receiver can decode.          

2. Conversion of a RF Electromagnetic Field to an Electrical Field

So as you can see by the above for RF EM Waves to first travel through the air, be captured by the Antenna and then transported by the Antenna cable they can’t be turned into Current (Amps) because there is no Current or a flow of energy and nor can they be converted into Volts for that transmission. RF Wave Power measured in Watts (w) is collected by an Antenna (which doesn’t convert anything), then trapped and guided by the Antenna coaxial cable wires to appear at the AIS Receiver circuitry. It appears as Voltage across two wires and a Current in the wires is then produced. No conversion has occurred before that circuitry. However as RF EM Waves were “radiant energy” before being sucked into the Antenna and transported to the AIS Receiver; then simply using Ohms Law described in Section A1 above they are seen by the AIS Receiver as, RF EM Watts = Volts X Current.

I won’t go into the detail of it but you don’t have to necessarily convert a EM Field into an Electrical Field to measure "energy flow" measured in Watts (micro watts usually). Once they are captured from the air and being guided by an Antenna cable, by measuring the Electrostatic Field (Volts) which acts "vertically" and Magnetic Field (Current) which moves "horizontally", by multiplying them you get Watts using Ohms Law as described in Sections A1 & 2 above. See the following Animation, Figure 6.

electromagnetic-wave-animation.gif.9eff9b152b63f9ce31436fc4cd1f3a0d.gif

Figure 6. Electromagnetic Field and Electrostatic Field in a Cable

This method is as opposed to electrical circuits like in a AIS simply measuring the Watts by taking the combination of EM Field and Electrical Field travelling across those circuits then using Volts and Amps and Ohms Law as outlined above, instead of employing complicated RF EM Wave physics.

3. Conclusion

That is the theory done and dusted and by understanding all the above it then becomes very easy to correlate any issues between an AIS RX issue and its possible impact upon AIS TX performance on any sailboat. More importantly however is mid race before crossing the finish line and ensuring using not just this AIS TX TEST #5, but anyone of AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4 to ensure you are complying with any Race Documentation and can complete a post-race Declaration with surety regarding AIS.

How it is done for AIS TEST #5 is as follows.       

THE END FOR NOW

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

For those who want to do their own vessel and race course assessment using AIS TX #5 by using AIS RX only you will have to wait for this in a forthcoming Post. I have not listed any further other than Headings so to leave anyone inclined here to come up with few ideas of their own.

D. ?????????????????????????

E. PRACTICAL APPLICATION ON THE RACE COURSE OF RX AIS FOR AIS TX

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

F. CONCLUSION

APPENDIX A – WOXI EXAMPLE USING AIS RX RANGE TO TEST AIS TX CAPABILITY

Note: Simply a reminder to Appendix A, putting aside AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4, Mark Richard's is quoted as saying in Sail_World.com/nz 31 Dec Interview ; We were receiving AIS, when you are receiving, you also believe that you are transmitting OK as well” and “The AIS had nothing to show that we weren't transmitting, and as far as we were concerned that was end of story. Our AIS was on for the whole of the race," he reiterated. Then also in conjunction with Sails Magazine Feb/March 2019_WOXI where it states via an exclusive interview with a WOXI commissioned “highly respected marine electronics expert” saying WOXI “was transmitting on low power due to an antenna fault – high VSWR” indicating a catastrophic AIS Antenna failure.         

Now we have got to AIS TX TEST #5 and I have run out of gas. We haven’t got a winner here on SA picking #5 so a case of @Fiji Bitter is still up for grabs unless someone sketches in the detail to Section D ???? and E ?????? above that remain incomplete. Even @hoppycould do that now using just the above Radio/AIS TX/RX tutorial.

If no one willing here to have a go at joining the technical AIS RX/TX ?????,.then that probably means I’m drinking all that @Fiji Bitter .

 

 

 

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Js I have not responded to the technical stuff as on the evidence and i do not agree to some extent on the signal strength analysis but as I see it and in that part of the world the ais transmit was turned off

end of story

so next time I do an ocean race they will get the respect they deserve which of course is none

we now have the trifecta

2010 should have retired when others boats in the same circumstances did

2017 should have done penalty or retired  but did not

2018 the ais issue

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30 minutes ago, lydia said:

Js I have not responded to the technical stuff as on the evidence and i do not agree to some extent on the signal strength analysis but as I see it and in that part of the world the ais transmit was turned off

Yes Lydia I can appreciate your analysis being no TX Watts out equals 00000 and so any RX Watts in analysis is not worth a tinkers cuss.

PS. I have never posted a AIS "signal strength analysis" with any AIS Repeater  in Tas, let alone one for WOXI, so I have no idea what you are to some extent not agreeing with or agreeing with? Colour of my shoes?

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I have invited weeks ago, this last one.

I have then bumped and begged for days but not a whisper. Something is not right? Fuck it.

 

People I’m very disappointed. Like @Francis Vaughan you are an electrical engineer are you not? @lydiayou say you have decades of all things Radio propagation experience but not a peep? Others chiming in here like @Sidecar and the @TheUltimateSockPuppet also with decades of experience it seems with ancient RDFs made out of good English Bakelite, but not a word….but you lot can’t get AIS RX TEST #5. You can't all be surely tech blockheads like Richo?

Have you forgotten already?

Putting aside the damming nature of AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4,  don't you remember one of many famous Mark Richard's quotes as follows. in Sail_World.com/nz 31 Dec Interview where he says; We were receiving AIS, when you are receiving, you also believe that you are transmitting OK as well” and “The AIS had nothing to show that we weren't transmitting, and as far as we were concerned that was end of story. Our AIS was on for the whole of the race," he reiterated. It is noted no mention is made by Mark Richard’s of WOXI’s AIS RX or ‘Receive” capability being compromised by “distance.”

However that then must also be read in conjunction with Sails Magazine Feb/March 2019_WOXI where it states via an exclusive interview with a WOXI commissioned “highly respected marine electronics expert” saying WOXI “was transmitting on low power due to an antenna fault – high VSWR.”  Putting aside VSWR as an "outcome" for AIS TX issues, there is  no inkling to the "cause" and that cause is possibly is not related to AIS RX. The AIS TX TEST #4 summary upthread indicates as follows. For AIS TX Power to be reduced to 0.5 nm that correlates to a 1 million division of AIS TX Power or -57 dB which is essentially catastrophic for the same Antenna used for both TX and RX.         

You have one last chance guys. Fill in below Section D. …………… and Section E. PRACTICAL APPLICATION ON THE RACE COURSE OF RX AIS FOR AIS TX and you have the case of @Fiji Bitter. I really can't give you any more Radio Tutorials and hints than this. 

AIS TX TEST #5 – VHF AIS RX RANGE DEGRADED  

Putting aside the failure or degradation in AIS ‘Receive” (RX) signal as expressed in AIS information received being nothing or at a reduced range immediately telling you have a significant AIS problem, it can potentially provide some guidance to your “Transmitted” (TX) signal strength under certain circumstances. However there is less probability of a TX fault being expressed as “Received” (RX) fault, therefore it is stressed this AIS TX Test #5 is the least reliable of the five (5) AIS TX Tests and should be treated accordingly.

Again this AIS TX TEST #5 no different than #1 - #4 where anyone on a race boat holding the necessary Radio Qualifications on board as mandated by any Offshore Race Rules in the world and with some practical experience will understand everything I say here. For those that don’t, I have articulated here the concepts of Radio Frequency (RF) propagation and in particular VHF/AIS so they too are able to understand fully this AIS TX Test # 5 when fully explained and still coming.

A. PRELUDE – RF WAVE CONCEPTS

First to explain the difference between RF (Radio Frequency) RX and TX signal strength using two “water analogy’s” one in a pipe the other ocean to explain RF Wave Concepts. I could have very easily introduced these to more thoroughly explain VHF/AIS propagation for AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4, however I have elected to apply them to AIS RX Test #5 where it is essential they are first understood. AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4 are pretty simple and where #1 - #3 are “idiot proof” and #1 an automatic Visual Alarm and in all likelihood also an Audible Alarm AIS TX is degraded to the extent of failure. 

1. Electricity, Ohms Law & Water Analogy

Firstly the “propagation” of RF signals has nothing directly to do with this as you will find out. However it provides one of two helpful water analogy’s to understand how a RF signals are created, then received and decoded.

This first water analogy many would be familiar with being the analogy between electricity and hydraulic or water flow. It is noted this analogy is simplistic and puts aside things such things as electricity, be it AC or DC, is a closed loop and hydraulics are open source. Also while both their velocity is proportional to Current, water only experiences drag via friction at the pipes inner surface, while for electricity it occurs at all points within the metal conductor.

Voltage is the amount of “potential energy” between two (2) points on an electrical circuit. The source of this “electrical energy” on a sailboat is either stored in a battery or produced by an Alternator or Generator. For “water energy” it is either the height of a water storage reservoir or produced by a water pump.

This is where Voltage is represented by “water pressure.” Then electrical Current (Amps) by “water flow” over a period of time and to that “water flow” any Resistance (Ohm’s) governed by the electrical cable or water pipes size or any obstacles that alter that Current flow. That resistance for a water pipe could be an undersized pipe size, tap or an obstruction in the pipe. In an electrical circuit it could be a cable gauge incorrectly too small, an electrical “resister” inserted specifically to the change the Voltage on the down line side of the circuit (say 24v to 12v DC), or an electrical fault such as a frayed cable, bad electrical connection or moisture in the circuit, the bugbear of sailboats.

So the lower the Resistance the easier for Volts to kick more Amps or “water flow” through the circuit. Introduce a higher Resistance makes it harder for Volts or “water pressure” to kick the same Amps or “water flow” through the circuit at the same Volts or “water pressure”. This following Figure 1. or diagram of three (3) SA Posters who are called Volts, Amps and Ohms may better explain this.

Ohms-law.jpg.55b6a7cffcf3c2eeb33b8f5fad39e752.jpg

Figure 1. Ohms Law Diagram

BTW you can nominate your own but I’m putting up @madas the "Resistor/Mr Ohm" by not understanding like many that this “WOXO Protest Thread” is about “fat shaming” all involved, to hopefully prevent a repeat, not changing an outcome. The 9 Finger Outcome is up and cast in bronze. As for "Current/Mr Amp' maybe the Jury is out, is it @hoppya fat fuck or very fit and got some power to be "Mr Volt", who knows? :-) 

That hydraulic analogy is basis to a German physicist George Ohm who Ohms Law circa early 18th century was that between “flow” (Current) through an electrical conductor is directly proportional to the potential difference (Voltage) and more specifically Resistance (Ohms) is constant independent of Current (Amps). So the following formulas were born.  V = 1A X I (1 Ohm) or I = V/R  or R = V/I.

2. Electricity, Ohms Law & the Steam Engine

A fellow called James Watt a Scotsman in 1776 (6 years after Captain Cook landed in Australia with no Radio let alone AIS) did much like Marconi did over a decade later improving and commercialising Teslas (Marconi got the credit) earlier invention called Radio. This was by improving and commercialising the early 18th century Newcomen Steam Engine and yes Watt gets the big invention credit.

As an aside Watt brought about the 18th Century Industrial Revolution first in Great Britain and via first sail driven Baltimore Clipper 3 mast square rigged ships from the middle third of the 18th Century, built for speed and that changed world trade scouring the planet for raw product like wool to convert in Great Britain’s new steam driven mills, though the opium trade was more profitable in this period, particularly for less principled US owners of Clippers. The irony is these Clippers were the world’s first Race Boats and while at sea used whale oil to light the ship and they communicated via signal flags. Yet already in this period electricity had been invented and shortly afterwards radio, yet they were the last to see both. As for AIS it took another       

So named after Watt is a unit of power called Watts (W) which is a unit of power as a derived unit of one (1) joule per second. A “Joule” named after the Englishman James Joule in late 19th century who established the “energy transferred” or work required to move an object when a force of one (1) Newton (yes that guy) in direction of motion trough a distance of (one) 1 metre or 1 newton meter (N.m). How does that relate to electricity? A Joule is also the “energy dissipated as heat” when an electric Current of one (1) Amp passes through a Resistance of one (1) Ohm for one (1) second. Hey presto we are back to Ohms Law, but now ignoring Resistance (Ohms) as it is a known constant. As you can see many people come up with the ingredients for a just one cake.

The above Ohms Law formula then is then of more interest in RF Radio Wave analysis as follows:

Power (W) = Current (A) X Voltage (V) OR if the Resistance is known Current (A) = √ (Power (W) X Resistance (Ohms) ). There are many calculators On-Line to save you the maths.

How does this relate to AIS RF Propagation and Receiving?

A RF Wave is “energy” in two different states between its source and being received. An “electric field” converts to an “electromagnetic field” that is propagated through the air then converts into an “electrical field” at the receipt end. It is the last conversion which we are most interested in for AIS RX TEST #5 and explained as follows    

3. RF and Ocean Wave Analogy

Radio Frequency (RF) electromagnetic (EM) waves which carry “radiant energy” can be similarly explained using the most intuitive example being waves on the ocean. A wave most commonly is a disturbance caused by wind that “propagates” or moves that wave from the place it was created to another. In other words in RF terms between a VHF/AIS TX Transceiver and a RX Transceiver. Water waves on the ocean exhibit characteristics no different to RF waves such as amplitude, period, frequency and energy. Radio waves can only rely on line of sight, however like an ocean wave they do also and can only refract around obstacles or in the case of the Ionosphere like a rocky shore bounce off them. I won’t go into detail but if you imagine a seagull sitting in the ocean where a series of waves pass beneath it, the concepts such as RF Frequency, Wavelength and speed of Propagation can be conceptualised better understood as shown in this diagram or Figure 2 showing a seagull in relation to the “passing waves” and the “static ocean water” it sits upon.

Figure_17_09_02a.jpg.23d39d5b369bb5c32a8a40289ba3d52e.jpg

Figure 2. RF EM Wave Ocean Analogy Diagram

Then a diagram or Figure 3 of two different RF waves having different Frequency, Wavelength and Propagation characteristics via EM "radiant energy" of varying power, one being VHF and the other say HF. 

972173379_images(6).png.1722051dc433f78d15071bbbeb735571.png

Figure 3. RF EM Wave Comparison Diagram say VHF versus HF

Then a diagram, Figure 4 of VHF and HF waves having different Frequency, Wavelength and Propagation characteristics via EM "radiant energy" of varying power and their maximum propagation. Refer to AIS TX TEST #4 for examples of VHF. 

654983029_images(5).png.4bba421b6ed3518a58dc563ed0c53285.png

Figure 4. RF EM Max Propagation Comparison VHF versus HF

Then simply as a comparison to how VHF and HF are “propagated” and received on a sailboat where higher frequency VHF is of line of sight and lower frequency HF employs the Ionosphere and sometimes even the earth’s surface to bounce HF signals very long distances around the globe. This is shown in this comparative diagram, Figure 5Refer to AIS TX TEST #4 for examples of VHF.

ssb3.jpg.4eca53bc66bee622cda8c882f5cb7e23.jpg

Figure 5. Comparison of VHF and HF Propagation

The RX outcome for any Radio Transceiver including AIS is just like that waiting seagull or a sailboat bobbing up and down in the ocean waiting for the next ocean wave to hit at a particular frequency. Another way of explaining it is Einstein said; “Radio is like a very long cat, you pull its tail in New York and its head meows in Los Angeles.” 

So there is little you can do other than rely on signal “propagation” at the source (how hard the cats tail is pulled) except for a few things related to Antenna installation and its impact upon the RX Sensitivity (see AIS TX Test # 4 for full explanation) of the AIS Receiver (or the cats head and how loud he meows) and noted as follows.

B. HOW AIS RX SIGNALS ARE RECEIVED

With the above Electricity and RF EM water/ocean concepts and analogies in mind, the following technical explanation hopefully should be better understood.

1. Movement of RF EM Waves  

To use the RF Waves Ocean Waves analogy in Section A3 above to better explain the movement of RF EM through the air and then when caught by the Antenna and guided by the coaxial antenna cable to the AIS Receiver. Ocean waves move constantly forward through the “medium” being the ocean water which just moves up and down (as measured by the seagull) in the one spot. It doesn’t move forward so has no “flow.” Likewise firstly EM Waves move constantly forward in that “medium” called “the air,” which doesn’t move forward. Secondly in the Antenna cable in exactly the same manner. However the conductors in the antenna cable is now the “medium” which stays in one spot and the Current “wriggles within those conductors just like the ocean water. It doesn’t move forward and has no “current” or “flow,” the antenna cable just contains and directs it.

So referring to the Electricity, Ohms Law & Water Analogy in Section A1 above you can see RF EM Waves move forward or flow completely differently to electricity. Electricity has a Current (Amps) or “flow” of water as the “medium” in a pipe. On the other hand RF EM Waves have no Current (Amps) as the “medium” being the air or antenna cable has no “flow” as represented by the ocean water. The wave is not the “medium.”

The Electricity, Ohms Law & Water Analogy in Section A1 above is then used to understand the conversion process of a RF EM Field to an Electrical Field that the AIS Receiver can decode.          

2. Conversion of a RF Electromagnetic Field to an Electrical Field

So as you can see by the above for RF EM Waves to first travel through the air, be captured by the Antenna and then transported by the Antenna cable they can’t be turned into Current (Amps) because there is no Current or a flow of energy and nor can they be converted into Volts for that transmission. RF Wave Power measured in Watts (w) is collected by an Antenna (which doesn’t convert anything), then trapped and guided by the Antenna coaxial cable wires to appear at the AIS Receiver circuitry. It appears as Voltage across two wires and a Current in the wires is then produced. No conversion has occurred before that circuitry. However as RF EM Waves were “radiant energy” before being sucked into the Antenna and transported to the AIS Receiver; then simply using Ohms Law described in Section A1 above they are seen by the AIS Receiver as, RF EM Watts = Volts X Current.

I won’t go into the detail of it but you don’t have to necessarily convert a EM Field into an Electrical Field to measure "energy flow" measured in Watts (micro watts usually). Once they are captured from the air and being guided by an Antenna cable, by measuring the Electrostatic Field (Volts) which acts "vertically" and Magnetic Field (Current) which moves "horizontally", by multiplying them you get Watts using Ohms Law as described in Sections A1 & 2 above. See the following Animation, Figure 6.

electromagnetic-wave-animation.gif.9eff9b152b63f9ce31436fc4cd1f3a0d.gif

Figure 6. Electromagnetic Field and Electrostatic Field in a Cable

This method is as opposed to electrical circuits like in a AIS simply measuring the Watts by taking the combination of EM Field and Electrical Field travelling across those circuits then using Volts and Amps and Ohms Law as outlined above, instead of employing complicated RF EM Wave physics.

3. Conclusion

That is the theory done and dusted and by understanding all the above it then becomes very easy to correlate any issues between an AIS RX issue and its possible impact upon AIS TX performance on any sailboat. More importantly however is mid race before crossing the finish line and ensuring using not just this AIS TX TEST #5, but anyone of AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4 to ensure you are complying with any Race Documentation and can complete a post-race Declaration with surety regarding AIS.

How it is done for AIS TEST #5 is as follows.       

THE END FOR NOW

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????????

For those who want to do their own vessel and race course assessment using AIS TX #5 by using AIS RX only you will have to wait for this in a forthcoming Post. I have not listed any further other than Headings so to leave anyone inclined here to come up with few ideas of their own.

D. ?????????????????????????

E. PRACTICAL APPLICATION ON THE RACE COURSE OF RX AIS FOR AIS TX

??????????????????????????????????????????????????????

F. CONCLUSION

APPENDIX A – WOXI EXAMPLE USING AIS RX RANGE TO TEST AIS TX CAPABILITY

Note: Simply a reminder to Appendix A, putting aside AIS TX TESTS #1 - #4, Mark Richard's is quoted as saying in Sail_World.com/nz 31 Dec Interview ; We were receiving AIS, when you are receiving, you also believe that you are transmitting OK as well” and “The AIS had nothing to show that we weren't transmitting, and as far as we were concerned that was end of story. Our AIS was on for the whole of the race," he reiterated. Then also in conjunction with Sails Magazine Feb/March 2019_WOXI where it states via an exclusive interview with a WOXI commissioned “highly respected marine electronics expert” saying WOXI “was transmitting on low power due to an antenna fault – high VSWR” indicating a catastrophic AIS Antenna failure.         

Now we have got to AIS TX TEST #5 and I have run out of gas. We haven’t got a winner here on SA picking #5 so a case of @Fiji Bitter is still up for grabs unless someone sketches in the detail to Section D ???? and E ?????? above that remain incomplete. Even @hoppycould do that now using just the above Radio/AIS TX/RX tutorial.

If no one willing here to have a go at joining the technical AIS RX/TX ?????,.then that probably means I’m drinking all that @Fiji Bitter .

 

 

 

This is huge..! What an effort Jack.. I'll have some Fiji Bitter as it doesn't have too many Hopp's. AIS aside though the other Maxi's need to work out how they are going to beat Wild oats across the line in the next Hobart? The development that has been done with this boat lead's the world. When you think of the build cost of Comanche and the fact that Oats beats her when it matters as a better all rounder speaks volumes about her age and records. My advice to Ricco is to shut the fuck up, sail fairly and let the boat do the talking!

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On 3/23/2019 at 3:06 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Doubt??..more like assured no change in result.

However it's like "fat shaming" people who refuse to lose weight.

They mostly stay fat and have no shame.  

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On 3/23/2019 at 10:02 AM, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Most modern naviguessers wouldn’t know what RDF means much less how it works.

Or use a Sextant, put a log over the side or use a lead line for sounding.

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23 minutes ago, mad said:

Or use a Sextant, put a log over the side or use a lead line for sounding.

Careful if you suggest to this generation they drop a log over the side they’re likely to take a shit.

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24 minutes ago, mad said:

Or use a Sextant, put a log over the side or use a lead line for sounding.

And a lead line has probably been declared illegal due to the possibility you could get poisoned

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6 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

@jack_sparrow my technical knowledge of the AIS tests isn’t as detailed as yours, I suppose  could google it but to be honest I don’t care that much, like @lydia I don’t think any of the five tests really matter if the set is turned off.

Sock some of the tech concepts are counter intuitive, however once grasped it is not a difficult subject.

Richard's legacy is not what occurred "on" the race course but "off" it. The former impossible to judge, the latter is on the public record and there for all to see.

Those at the very top are now contemplating making AIS the subject of compliance checking by RC's. All on account they have swallowed hook, line and sinker Richard's nonsense that AIS TX "can't be self-policed." A line he conjured up to underpin a non-conforming post-race Declaration.

If this compliance nonsense goes unchallenged, turnstiles will be needed at every Protest Room.  

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15 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Sock some of the tech concepts are counter intuitive, however once grasped it is not a difficult subject.

Richard's legacy is not what occurred "on" the race course but "off" it. The former impossible to judge, the latter is on the public record and there for all to see.

Those at the very top are now contemplating making AIS the subject of compliance checking by RC's. All on account they have swallowed hook, line and sinker Richard's nonsense that AIS TX "can't be self-policed." A line he conjured up to underpin a non-conforming post-race Declaration.

If this compliance nonsense goes unchallenged, turnstiles will be needed at every Protest Room.  

One of the issues here is that the sport is self policing but so many at the pointy end of the fleet don’t want that because they don’t want to lodge a protest and be seen to be a sook. Mind you it’s not just the pointy end sailors that have that issue there are plenty of examples when skippers in the wrong have got away with it. I will also add that it’s not just the sailors sometimes a lack of confidence in the judicial (protest) system doesn’t help either.

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14 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

One of the issues here is that the sport is self policing but so many at the pointy end of the fleet don’t want that because they don’t want to lodge a protest and be seen to be a sook.

It is not an issue at all. "Self policing" is not just Protests? It starts with your own post-race Declaration and "policing yourself" (with competitors looking over your shoulder) is how the RRS are written.

BTW if you have experienced a genuine electronic failure and Declare it, you will/should survive any protest, either from the RC or any competitor. Doesn't matter what it is, AIS, Nav lights, VHF etc etc. 

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Some AIS units have self diagnosis functions for VSWR. I know that’s not an answer to #5  but interesting nonetheless. 

I hope it’s not as simple as this ... but if the performance of an ais antenna to receive is proportional to it’s ability to transmit then you only need to know that you cant see boats on ais that you SHOULD  see to know that your TX maybe faulty. Ie boats you can see during the day or boats you can see on the tracker that will give you an accurate distance to make that judgment.

 

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1 minute ago, Trickypig said:

Some AIS units have self diagnosis functions for VSWR. I know that’s not an answer to #5  but interesting nonetheless. 

Rumpelstiltskin go read AIS TX Tests #1 & #2.

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16 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

hope it’s not as simple as this ... but if the performance of an ais antenna to receive is proportional to it’s ability to transmit then you only need to know that you cant see boats on ais that you SHOULD  see to know that your TX maybe faulty. Ie boats you can see during the day or boats you can see on the tracker that will give you an accurate distance to make that judgment.

It is. Congratulations you have picked AIS RX Test #5. Though by reading the opening two paragraphs before Prelude was a giveaway. This test is heavily conditioned as stated and one most least reliable. I will explain in future post why.

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29 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

Ha!

AIS TX TESTS

1. VSWR Antenna & Errors Alarm: #1

ZSIM000-13611-001.JPG.0ebb34b8d9821882f0defbf3aee05200.JPG

2.VSWR, GPS, TX Message & Power Read Out Alarms With Log: #2

1218463435_VSWR-Alarm-NEW-with-Voltage(1).png.e413b4206171f2d7a369f7e40a5b9311.png

3. On-Line AIS Providers: #3

image.thumb.png.70e4472c4b16ceb3be9a1ceea3d0751f.png.370c8b68a7830ecf2c4175bf8babd148.png.f7e20a2ad990a595210c1417a9a872d0.png

4. VHF Reduced TX Range: #4

5. AIS Reduced RX Range: #5

 

This was like pulling teeth :-)

 

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

AIS TX TESTS

1. VSWR Antenna Alarm: #1

2.VSWR, GPS, TX Message & Power Read Out Alarms With Log: #2

1218463435_VSWR-Alarm-NEW-with-Voltage(1).png.e413b4206171f2d7a369f7e40a5b9311.png

3. On-Line AIS Providers: #3

image.thumb.png.70e4472c4b16ceb3be9a1ceea3d0751f.png.370c8b68a7830ecf2c4175bf8babd148.png.f7e20a2ad990a595210c1417a9a872d0.png

4. VHF Reduced TX Range: #4

5. AIS Reduced RX Range: #5

 

This was like pulling teeth :-)

 

Nobody wants the painful ridicule 

Especially lly from  LB15 who teaches AIS.

;)

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22 minutes ago, Trickypig said:

Nobody wants the painful ridicule 

Especially lly from  LB15 who teaches AIS.

;)

I betcha his class notes will now be a bit longer then  :-)

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22 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

I don’t know pulling teeth can be fun

Fun?? How so Sock???

Putting glass at other side of the bedroom and throwing them in??

images (73).jpeg

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6 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Fun?? How so Sock???

Putting glass at other side of the bedroom and throwing them in??

images (73).jpeg

I meant if they’re not your teeth that are being pulled

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1 hour ago, Trickypig said:

Nobody wants the painful ridicule 

Especially lly from  LB15 who teaches AIS.

;)

yes, but lets be honest,

what boats have the free time to have someone constantly checking the AIS interface status.

 

the most accurate way would be for the RC / Competitors if they wish to protest for an AIS infringement then they should have to declare it at a sked or on VHF, Positive acknowledgement by the boat that they aren't receiving a competitors signals, then they should have the opportunity to correct a "defective" AIS.

 

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10 minutes ago, hoodlum said:

yes, but lets be honest,

what boats have the free time to have someone constantly checking the AIS interface status.

Honestly you don't have to keep checking anything at all.

AIS Test #1 is an automatic "self test" done every 30 seconds and it is "alarmed" to give a "visual error message" on display(s) AIS is connected to plus an "audio alarm" on most compatible MFD's.

It's idiot proof.

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Honestly you don't have to keep checking anything at all.

AIS Test #1 is an automatic "self test" done every 30 seconds and it is "alarmed" to give a "visual error message" on display(s) AIS is connected to plus an "audio alarm" on most compatible MFD's.

It's idiot proof.

Apparently not if you’re on WOXI

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4 minutes ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Apparently not if you’re on WOXI

That doesn't mean your AIS TX has stopped. It keeps transmitting but at a "reduced TX range". Then the decision is does that "reduced TX range" comply or not comply with the Race Documents. That is a Skipper decision.

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46 minutes ago, hoodlum said:

the most accurate way would be for the RC / Competitors if they wish to protest for an AIS infringement then they should have to declare it at a sked or on VHF, Positive acknowledgement by the boat that they aren't receiving a competitors signals, then they should have the opportunity to correct a "defective" AIS.

That is the "least accurate and subjective" as who determines what a competitors AIS TX range should be and whether it complies or not with race rules? It could also be their own vessels AIS RX not functioning properly, not the TX vessel. Responsibility for compliance is the TX vessels skipper, not some other turkey.

VHF on Ch 16 activation is mandatory and it's not checked and relies on "self policing". Why should AIS be any different?

Putting the above aside, what you suggest just guarantees a line up at the Protest Room. There is also an argument such advise constitutes "external assistance." So protest or shut up.

Any move away from "self policing" and more fucking rules is a plague on the sport.

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46 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

That doesn't mean your AIS TX has stopped. It keeps transmitting but at a "reduced TX range". Then the decision is does that "reduced TX range" comply or not comply with the Race Documents. That is a Skipper decision.

I’m suggesting that it was a conscious decision to switch it off

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

It is. Congratulations you have picked AIS RX Test #5. Though by reading the opening two paragraphs before Prelude was a giveaway. This test is heavily conditioned as stated and one most least reliable. I will explain in future post why.

As you note, it isn't a direct 1-1 relationship, but, and I'm sure you have already given this some thought, the implications of the reasonably direct relationship between Tx and Rx performance of an antenna leave yet another set of questions for the continual WOXI psuedo-technical excuses.  If BJ couldn't see WOXI, and if it was an antenna fault on WOXI, it is reasonably likely WOXI couldn't see BJ. That would hardly go unnoticed. Indeed, if the antenna was faulty as claimed, WOXI would hardly have ever seen another boat on AIS.

Still, in the spirit of trying to move toward making the future better, I won't belabour the point.

 

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Just now, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

I’m suggesting that it was a conscious decision to switch it off

I realise that is your opinion Sock. However there is no evidence to support it and it is also contrary to at least one independent party that WOXI's RX Range was seriously reduced, not TX turned off. That may be bollocks, but knowing the individual I seriously doubt that.

Would I play golf with Richo...never.

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42 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

As you note, it isn't a direct 1-1 relationship, but, and I'm sure you have already given this some thought, the implications of the reasonably direct relationship between Tx and Rx performance ....If BJ couldn't see WOXI, and if it was an antenna fault on WOXI, it is reasonably likely WOXI couldn't see BJ. That would hardly go unnoticed. Indeed, if the antenna was faulty as claimed, WOXI would hardly have ever seen another boat on AIS.

Unfortunately it not as simple as that Francis. In some cases there is no relationship at all between RX and TX  depending on the "cause" of the fault.

For example we have been told the issue of reduced AIS TX range was a "high VSWR" (or TX power loss returned to the AIS Transponder to become heat), but that is not a "cause," but a "outcome" as you know  Note: In fact not "high" but "catastrophic" is a better description with a reduction in TX power times by > 0.0001 (or a lot of heat) by my calculations if TX range was reduced to 0.50 nautical mile as reported.

Depending on the "cause" of that high VSWR, the relationship between RX and TX could be zero or something more than that. Without knowing the "cause" and reduced RX range, if any, one can only speculate. I do have a theory on "cause", but that is all it is in the absence of that information.

 

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4 hours ago, Trickypig said:

Nobody wants the painful ridicule 

Especially lly from  LB15 who teaches AIS.

;)

I thought he teaches people not to use it?  

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LB's term is Nittendo Navigators I recall which I agree about those who rely upon everything electronic and in case of AIS to ignore COLREGS. So use it yes but to supplement not replace. On race course LB not a fan of the "non-tactical" use or "follow the leader" with AIS which I agree, but in a Tracked Race that doesn't mean a lot. So then "tactical" use knowing SOG/COG changes every 30 sec, like when when they have changed drivers and the owner is steering so time to strike. Got to be in contact range to take advantage of that though so not much use to the useless.

 

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On 3/24/2019 at 3:16 AM, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

I’ve got a backstaff stored away somewhere, only used once!

By Christopher Columbus?

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39 minutes ago, PIL66 said:

now with these new players here, this could stay alive.... Has MR showed up yet...?

Yeah probably at a resort in the Maldives mate. 

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1 hour ago, PIL66 said:

now with these new players here, this could stay alive.... Has MR showed up yet...?

PIL Should I make a comeback ... ?

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Has anyone got an opinion on Ricco's claim that all the 100's could see each other anyway? According to PH's complaint this wasn't the case? I ask this as I think it's very relevant to the advantage of Wild Oats over taking Comanche. Wild Oats went wider from memory in search of more pressure and to provide an overtaking lane, could Comanche see them doing this? This aside in little pressure not sure if Comanche could have sustained the lead anyway. Keep the Derwent finish or scrap it as a separate question? I don't expect them to ever do this but just sayin.........

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1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

Has anyone got an opinion on Ricco's claim that all the 100's could see each other anyway? 

He must have really good eye sight, especially at night.

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2 hours ago, DickDastardly said:

PIL Should I make a comeback ... ?

Absolutely......... or not

1 hour ago, terrafirma said:

Has anyone got an opinion on Ricco's claim that all the 100's could see each other anyway? According to PH's complaint this wasn't the case? I ask this as I think it's very relevant to the advantage of Wild Oats over taking Comanche. Wild Oats went wider from memory in search of more pressure and to provide an overtaking lane, could Comanche see them doing this? This aside in little pressure not sure if Comanche could have sustained the lead anyway. Keep the Derwent finish or scrap it as a separate question? I don't expect them to ever do this but just sayin.........

Comanche did not see them go wide.  They were in AIS stealth mode.

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18 hours ago, hoodlum said:

yes, but lets be honest,

what boats have the free time to have someone constantly checking the AIS interface status.

 

18 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Honestly you don't have to keep checking anything at all.

AIS Test #1 is an automatic "self test" done every 30 seconds and it is "alarmed" to give a "visual error message" on display(s) AIS is connected to plus an "audio alarm" on most compatible MFD's.

It's idiot proof.

Hoodlum your comment and my reply about monitoring of AIS TX signal quality being done automatically and alarms displayed remotely reminded me of something. Remotely is because AIS Transponders (and their inbuilt function LED lights) are often tucked away out of view, just like WOXI's behind Nav St bulkhead.

That all makes Richards saying they never knew they had a AIS TX problem until hitting the dock rather strange when in  Sail World 31 Dec interview he said;  "Unless someone tells you that you are not transmitting, there is no way that you know." and "There is a light which shows on the AIS that you are transmitting, and ours was." 

If you don't know you have a TX problem, why go ferreting around to check the function LED lights on a hidden AIS Transponder?

It would naturally be the first thing you would do if say your VSWR RX Alarm came up. At the same time also check the TX LED light on your Splitter.

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17 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

That is the "least accurate and subjective" as who determines what a competitors AIS TX range should be and whether it complies or not with race rules? It could also be their own vessels AIS RX not functioning properly, not the TX vessel. Responsibility for compliance is the TX vessels skipper, not some other turkey.

VHF on Ch 16 activation is mandatory and it's not checked and relies on "self policing". Why should AIS be any different?

Putting the above aside, what you suggest just guarantees a line up at the Protest Room. There is also an argument such advise constitutes "external assistance." So protest or shut up.

Any move away from "self policing" and more fucking rules is a plague on the sport.

This is the core of the issue here. 

AIS and other new technology will and should be adopted to their full extent. It is the mindset of the competitors that needs to brought in line with its advantages rather than the perceived disadvantages.

A comparable analogy is Body cameras worn by Police - lots of talk that this unfairly obligates Officers. Bollocks I say - having been on the end of a trigger happy cop - I want to know that their actions are recorded and are not open to being tampered with. 

Safety matters - even if this race has become perceived as a coastal sprint - the next time a major storm savages the fleet you will suddenly see all yachts AIS functions miraculously come to life............ And the people who both do this, and tolerate this, need to be both outed and disqualified.

The WOXI story as laid out by MR stinks. The following actions of the RC and PC also stink. The stench is not limited to these people.

The Turd on the carpet remains - you just need to open your eyes to see it; Despite the attempts by cetain closely aligned media to deodorise the situation.

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24 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

If you don't know you have a TX problem, why go ferreting around to check the function LED lights on a hidden AIS Transponder?

Supports my general view that most of what MR said was knee jerk off the cuff stuff that was uttered without engaging the brain. "Ours was" is the typical "it can't possibly be our/my fault therefore the light was on" as opposed to "I know someone checked and they would have told me if there was a problem."  It never got better from thereon in. Just moving goalposts as to why it could not possibly be their fault. 

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9 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Supports my general view that most of what MR said was knee jerk off the cuff stuff that was uttered without engaging the brain.

That was a couple of days of drafting by Mumbles PR. Nothing off the cuff there. 

Knee jerk off the cuff was on the dock him saying AIS wasn't mandatory.

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32 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Supports my general view that most of what MR said was knee jerk off the cuff stuff that was uttered without engaging the brain. "Ours was" is the typical "it can't possibly be our/my fault therefore the light was on" as opposed to "I know someone checked and they would have told me if there was a problem."  It never got better from thereon in. Just moving goalposts as to why it could not possibly be their fault. 

Some say that that would be Richo's general MO.  Allegedly.

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