Mid

2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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So if the tragedies are to be understood; how lies the blame?

I always look to authority... I’m a good boy really. The RC should be able to explain it to us...  please 

We can accept that AIS is a really excellent tactical tool for winning that is required coincidentally for safety under the Sailing Instructions.

We can also accept that WOXI has world class sailors who also understand this.

Therefore all I seek to understand is how the WOXI skipper and navigator could sign a declaration that its AIS WAS operating throughout the race when it wasn’t despite too many easily observable anomalies as to its operation.

.... and soon after; it immaculately operated; for which there is no explanation. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, Trickypig said:

Therefore all I seek to understand is how the WOXI skipper and navigator coulsign a declaration that its AIS WAS operating throughout the race when it wasn’t despite too many easily observable anomalies as to its operation.

Owner, Skipper's/Nominated Authority or Navigator, only one signature required.

If there is no means to acertain if your AIX is transmitting (cough) you would "condition" your Declaration accordingly. Obviously that will invite enquiry from the RC, but maybe they missed that?

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The RC or PC  can ‘learn ‘ of a matter  and protest a boat but it can’t be from a competitor or interested party. 

Surely they can learn of this matter from the Marine Traffic website or the start boat or the relay vessel. 

It was convenient they ‘learned’ of it from BJ..

 

 

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1 hour ago, Trickypig said:

The RC or PC  can ‘learn ‘ of a matter  and protest a boat but it can’t be from a competitor or interested party. 

Surely they can learn of this matter from the Marine Traffic website or the start boat or the relay vessel. 

It was convenient they ‘learned’ of it from BJ..

 

 

Isn’t the role of the RC to taste test the scallop pies with the sponsor’s Pinot prior to the arrival of the first boats?

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4 hours ago, Trickypig said:

Surely they can learn of this matter from the Marine Traffic website or the start boat or the relay vessel

It was convenient they ‘learned’ of it from BJ..

"Learning of it" are not words in the RRS. It is "result of information" and there can be "multiple sources" of information from which a RC can elect to chose from.

That can be anything or anybody except those three things listed in the rule, which is only from a redress request, an invalid protest or a conflicted party. So information could come from anyone including a TV Reporter or the man on the moon.

60.2. A race committee may protest a boat, but not as

(a) result of information arising from a request for redress or an invalid protest, or from a report from a person with a conflict of interest other than the representative of the boat herself;

Also for the avoidance of doubt any information from the boat's representative (ie Declaration) is specifically excluded from being deemed a "person with a conflict of interest".

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On 3/26/2019 at 1:22 PM, jack_sparrow said:

 

Hoodlum your comment and my reply about monitoring of AIS TX signal quality being done automatically and alarms displayed remotely reminded me of something. Remotely is because AIS Transponders (and their inbuilt function LED lights) are often tucked away out of view, just like WOXI's behind Nav St bulkhead.

That all makes Richards saying they never knew they had a AIS TX problem until hitting the dock rather strange when in  Sail World 31 Dec interview he said;  "Unless someone tells you that you are not transmitting, there is no way that you know." and "There is a light which shows on the AIS that you are transmitting, and ours was." 

If you don't know you have a TX problem, why go ferreting around to check the function LED lights on a hidden AIS Transponder?

It would naturally be the first thing you would do if say your VSWR RX Alarm came up. At the same time also check the TX LED light on your Splitter. 

while i agree with all your points on the AIS Gate.

 

my own concern is the following.

 

the AIS Unit on the last three boats i have taken to Hobart has been inside the Switch Panel,

the Splitter unit has also been hidden away there as well. 

 

as navigator in 3 out of my 5 Hobarts, i have never kept an eye on the AIS unit either by

- having PRO AIS2 active on the nav laptop

- Having the AIS unit plugged into anything except the N2k or N0183 data feed.

in my races it has never had any transmit issues that i know of.... but i know for a fact that boats around us after the race reckoned they couldn't see us. 

i could for all of these races put my hand on my hart and sign the deceleration saying i complied with all racing requirements. 

 

but if we want to have this as a rule, it as you say must be enforceable, and it must be fair... so yes the outside assistance VHF call / warning could be over the top.

but if i intend to protest someone... the gentleman thing (as long as its not deliberate) is to give fair warning, then if i think you have done it again, off to the room.

as long as the other boat then says they were arned, we checked - they can then declare - we found no error or we found an error.... that is the get out of jail card.

it becomes self policing as all you have to do then is check that your system is working and declare it..

 

 

and i will come clean --- Every AIS system i have worked on on a race boat i always put in the stealth button.

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12 hours ago, TheUltimateSockPuppet said:

Isn’t the role of the RC to taste test the scallop pies with the sponsor’s Pinot prior to the arrival of the first boats?

 

 

I would have thought tasting each others pies  was more the decorum.

 

 

6 hours ago, hoodlum said:

while i agree with all your points on the AIS Gate.

 

my own concern is the following.

 

the AIS Unit on the last three boats i have taken to Hobart has been inside the Switch Panel,

the Splitter unit has also been hidden away there as well. 

 

as navigator in 3 out of my 5 Hobarts, i have never kept an eye on the AIS unit either by

- having PRO AIS2 active on the nav laptop

- Having the AIS unit plugged into anything except the N2k or N0183 data feed.

in my races it has never had any transmit issues that i know of.... but i know for a fact that boats around us after the race reckoned they couldn't see us. 

i could for all of these races put my hand on my hart and sign the deceleration saying i complied with all racing requirements. 

 

but if we want to have this as a rule, it as you say must be enforceable, and it must be fair... so yes the outside assistance VHF call / warning could be over the top.

but if i intend to protest someone... the gentleman thing (as long as its not deliberate) is to give fair warning, then if i think you have done it again, off to the room.

as long as the other boat then says they were arned, we checked - they can then declare - we found no error or we found an error.... that is the get out of jail card.

it becomes self policing as all you have to do then is check that your system is working and declare it..

 

 

and i will come clean --- Every AIS system i have worked on on a race boat i always put in the stealth button.

 

 

Of course you did Yuri.

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7 hours ago, hoodlum said:

...as navigator in 3 out of my 5 Hobarts, i have never kept an eye on the AIS unit either by

- having PRO AIS2 active on the nav laptop

- Having the AIS unit plugged into anything except the N2k or N0183 data feed.

Unless one of those was the 2018 S2H edition you were not compelled to keep an eye on AIS as it was not mandated to be turned on.

7 hours ago, hoodlum said:

in my races it has never had any transmit issues that i know of.... but i know for a fact that boats around us after the race reckoned they couldn't see us. 

Well if as you say 'I have never kept an eye on the AIS unit" in those races, how do you know you didn't have any transmit issues? That aside your talking about races where unlike the 2018 S2H race your AIS was not the subject of a pre race inspection and audit? Was it working properly in the first place? If other vessels didn't see you then it is either their problem or yours, and yours not checked?

1 hour ago, paps49 said:

i could for all of these races put my hand on my hart and sign the deceleration saying i complied with all racing requirements. 

In light of the above where you have said you have checked nothing mid race and in the absence of a mandatory AIS pre race audit and inspection, then your race Declaration saying you complied is not worth the paper it is written on in terms of mandatory AIS activation. By your own words you have no idea what your AIS was doing?

7 hours ago, hoodlum said:

as long as the other boat then says they were arned, we checked - they can then declare - we found no error or we found an error.... that is the get out of jail card.

it becomes self policing as all you have to do then is check that your system is working and declare it..

Correct self policing, but to self police and declare you have to first check. No check, then no get out of jail card.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

Where does it say in the SI's that you had to keep an eye on the AIS? It just had to be on and transmitting ;) 

Who said that was in SI? Go to Offshore Regs then to RRS as amended by SI indicates you have to. Exact provisions already mentioned numerous times up thread. You must have been away those days.

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Well if as you say 'I have never kept an eye on the AIS unit" in those races, how do you know you didn't have any transmit issues? That aside your talking about races where unlike the 2018 S2H race your AIS was not the subject of a pre race inspection and audit? Was it working properly in the first place? If other vessels didn't see you then it is either their problem or yours, and yours not checked?

it was not a statement that it wasn't a requirement but one that regardless of the new requirement it for it to be "Switched on" it was never checked and even under the current prescriptions it doesn't require it to be monitored.

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

In light of the above where you have said you have checked nothing mid race and in the absence of a mandatory AIS pre race audit and inspection, then your race Declaration saying you complied is not worth the paper it is written on in terms of mandatory AIS activation. By your own words you have no idea what your AIS was doing?

well yes, the Cat 1 & Cat 2 Safety forms, saying is there AIS (tick) is there VHF (tick) is there HF (Tick)  All new installations must be DSC Compatible

nothing saying that it must transmit X Range, that it must be monitored, let alone that the AIS must be programmed with the vessels MMSI for any of the radio requirements

10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Correct self policing, but to self police and declare you have to first check. No check, then no get out of jail card.

as an example of another passive piece of technology, your sat tracker.... do you check to ensure that its working.....

 

 

 

1551912387_ScreenShot2019-03-30at7_39_50am.thumb.png.64bab7b61afcce1e29c2451c55927acc.png

Race Ammendment

Special Regulation 4.09(a): An AIS Transponder shall be carried and beswitched on, such that it is receiving and transmitting.

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1 hour ago, hoodlum said:

t was not a statement that it wasn't a requirement but one that regardless of the new requirement it for it to be "Switched on" it was never checked and even under the current prescriptions it doesn't require it to be monitored.

You need to read the Special Regs regarding the obligations to maintain the operation of equipment (to its standards), the RRS and SI as amended regarding Declarations and Rules compliance and where ignorance unintentional or intentional is no defence when making that Declaration. All this referenced up thread.

1 hour ago, hoodlum said:

well yes, the Cat 1 & Cat 2 Safety forms, saying is there AIS (tick) is there VHF (tick) is there HF (Tick)  All new installations must be DSC Compatible

nothing saying that it must transmit X Range, that it must be monitored, 

as an example of another passive piece of technology, your sat tracker.... do you check to ensure that its working.....

Go far beyond those Safety Forms. If you had bothered to read up thread the link between using a common antenna system for both VHF and AIS and the Special Regulations and then reference to Instalation and Audit as prescribed by Radio AIS Nav Inspection and Audit Form you would know this. See comment above the monitoring.

1 hour ago, hoodlum said:

nothing saying that it must transmit X Range, that it must be monitored, let alone that the AIS must be programmed with the vessels MMSI for any of the radio requirements

As for your last throw of the dice it is against the Law in Aust (as covered by SI's) to operate a Class B AIS without a MMSI or with a false MMSI.

@hoodlumunfortunately through ignorance or otherwise your post is wrong and highly misleading. Then again I imagine you aren't too concerned about that and have another objective in mind.

PS Maintaining supplied Sat Tracker also in SI, but unrelated subject to AIS.

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On 3/29/2019 at 8:11 PM, toad said:

isnt it about time you cunts went for a midnight stroll?

I accompanied the Dubinator, who was ready to roll, to the CYC carpark but where only this idiot showed up, he handed over a cheque saying only; "zip it" and walked away?

IMG_20190331_190319.jpg

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22 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I accompanied the Dubinator, who was ready to roll, to the CYC carpark but where only this idiot showed up, he handed over a cheque saying only; "zip it" and walked away?

IMG_20190331_190319.jpg

Must have been a Kodak memory Jack.

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On 3/31/2019 at 9:15 PM, jack_sparrow said:

I accompanied the Dubinator, who was ready to roll, to the CYC carpark but where only this idiot showed up, he handed over a cheque saying only; "zip it" and walked away?



I am so sorry Jack, built as the unofficial moderator for the southern hemisphere I must give you a 10 minute timeout for outing TheUltimateSuckPuppet.

 

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10 minutes seems fair, even if your not authorised.

Wouldn't even slow him down.

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Have heard there is now some serious "finger pointing" happening now courtesy of this SA Thread amoungst the Rushcutters Bay Mafia over a unhealthy addiction to "finger pointing" in the Derwent.

"Reap what you sow".

12d264151816a3598e1d6eb95fe65307.png.ea0fd634c5eee54e06114d0702d09bb8.png

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14 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

Really gotta wonder where Vila is on all this “it was on the whole time”

One day the truth will come out, I hope

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14 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Have heard there is now some serious "finger pointing" happening now courtesy of this SA Thread amoungst the Rushcutters Bay Mafia over a unhealthy addiction to "finger pointing" in the Derwent.

"Reap what you sow".

 

I believe there is some intersting research into this phenomena.

The formula involves:

(Arrogance + Fuck Wittery) x Coefficient of Douche Baggery = Allround Awkwardness for Perpetrators & Supporting Parties (a.k.a. Mark Richards & CYCA)

There is also additional research into the above formula with an added effect of Duration (Time).

The Perpetrators (falsely) believed in diminshed Awkwardness over time ("Stand your Ground Gentleman - this will all blow over...... shortly")

In fact, Total Awkwardness;  whilst initially diminshed as Bogus claims and supporting parties try to whitewash the whole affair ( as documented in the initially 24-72 hours of the "event"), in fact actually inverts and shows remarkable, almost exponential growth.

Simultaneously, the Timed Whole Awkwardness Total (TWAT) is mirrored by the knowledge levels of the wider population, who are guided by a source of credible and indisputable source of (almost mystical) information. 

Finger pointing, arse covering and much unpleasantness, are just the early manifestations of the recrimination/backlash phase of TWAT(ery).

Researchers have dubbed this swooping and then soaring curve the "Flight of the Sparrow Curve"- for the way that it so elegantly mimics the hunting patterns of a voracious Sparrow in hunt.

(Disclaimer: Any reference to named parties is both intended and intentional.)

Sparrow Flight Curve.jpg

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Next year is all sorted with the rule change (thanks to us) so I guess it's over.... of course we here will remember .....

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Sorry???? Also acronym of the year.

CYC are probably mounting a Timed Whole Awkwardness Total (TWAT) Meter in their Committee Room as we speak.

twat-o-meter.gif

It will join the two ButtHurt and Hypocrisy Meters that have been driving them crazy after this S2H.

hypocrisy-meter.gif

He+was+being+facetious+you+absolute+twat+_52eef3ecd92a4c05114a24047aa04f3f.gif

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4 hours ago, Boink said:

I believe there is some intersting research into this phenomena.

The formula involves:

(Arrogance + Fuck Wittery) x Coefficient of Douche Baggery = Allround Awkwardness for Perpetrators & Supporting Parties (a.k.a. Mark Richards & CYCA)

There is also additional research into the above formula with an added effect of Duration (Time).

The Perpetrators (falsely) believed in diminshed Awkwardness over time ("Stand your Ground Gentleman - this will all blow over...... shortly")

In fact, Total Awkwardness;  whilst initially diminshed as Bogus claims and supporting parties try to whitewash the whole affair ( as documented in the initially 24-72 hours of the "event"), in fact actually inverts and shows remarkable, almost exponential growth.

Simultaneously, the Timed Whole Awkwardness Total (TWAT) is mirrored by the knowledge levels of the wider population, who are guided by a source of credible and indisputable source of (almost mystical) information. 

Finger pointing, arse covering and much unpleasantness, are just the early manifestations of the recrimination/backlash phase of TWAT(ery).

Researchers have dubbed this swooping and then soaring curve the "Flight of the Sparrow Curve"- for the way that it so elegantly mimics the hunting patterns of a voracious Sparrow in hunt.

(Disclaimer: Any reference to named parties is both intended and intentional.)

Sparrow Flight Curve.jpg

Well done sir.

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Ohhhh and if you are wondering where the Bullshit Meter normally on the Committee Room wall is?

It's out getting repaired. Seems it spun out of control and broke when the RC lodged that WOXI Protest, NOT based on their Race Declaration, but upon Black Jack's report, a party deemed to have a "conflict of interest". 

giphy (2).gif

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Seahorse May 2019 Editorial

on page 11

 

apropos of nothing in particular, starts off as follows.....

 

"Inevitable?

The attention of World Sailing is finally being dragged towards the issue of (redacted unmentionable word beginning with ch). There is a long way to go before there is any effective action ........"

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Notice of Race Issued for 75th 2019 Rolex S2H - NOR inclusive of new AIS protest "carve out" provision.

(e) Special Regulation 4.09(a): An AIS  Transponder shall be carried and be  switched on, such that it is receiving  and transmitting. The failure of any  station to receive a signal from a boat’s AIS Transponder shall not be subject to  protest or grounds for redress (amends .RRS 60.1 and 62.1(a) and RRS 63.1 shall  not apply).

AS RRS

Good approach for dealing with bullshit protests and does not diminish responsibilty of competitors to check their mandatory AIS activation compliance for signing off their Declarations, something that went MIA last outing courtesy of a deluge of bullshit.

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32 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Notice of Race Issued for 75th 2019 Rolex S2H - NOR inclusive of new AIS protest "carve out" provision.

(e) Special Regulation 4.09(a): An AIS  Transponder shall be carried and be  switched on, such that it is receiving  and transmitting. The failure of any  station to receive a signal from a boat’s AIS Transponder shall not be subject to  protest or grounds for redress (amends .RRS 60.1 and 62.1(a) and RRS 63.1 shall  not apply).

 

Good show. Switched on and disconnected from the spitter. Need to have it disconnected so you can connect a seperate recieve only AIS system which is integrated with your chart plotter.

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^^^ You don't know much about AIS do you. You can flick a switch for turning TX off. Bit like flicking your Nav lights off instead of on.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

^^^ You don't know much about AIS do you. You can flick a switch for turning TX off. Bit like flicking your Nav lights off instead of on.

Ah - have another think - that was the point I was aiming at.

Turning a switch to turn it off is against the new SR.

Having a AIS unit that is turned on with transmit enabled, but is not connected to an effective antenna satisfies the new special reg.

I don't want to cheat, so I won't flick the switch (actually I have not even wired in a switch on my cruising boat). But as there is no way to be protested for lack of transmit range, it is in my best interest to have a minimised transmit power...

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15 minutes ago, Se7en said:

But as there is no way to be protested for lack of transmit range, it is in my best interest to have a minimised transmit power...

Well actually there is. It is all upthread.

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Notice of Race Issued for 75th 2019 Rolex S2H - NOR inclusive of new AIS protest "carve out" provision.

 The failure of any  station to receive a signal from a boat’s AIS Transponder shall not be subject to  protest 

 

Ahhh what does this new wording mean then?

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39 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Ahhh what does this new wording mean then?

This means that AIS transmission is optional. Leave it on and comply with the rules or turn it on and suffer no more than a slap on the wrist.

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46 minutes ago, Se7en said:

Ahhh what does this new wording mean then?

Exactly what it says. The answer to why your "cheat" is either a time penalty or DSQ sits in the NOR, RRS, AS Special Regs and SI (when released) as outlined upthread and my guess documents you have never read.

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17 minutes ago, hoppy said:

This means that AIS transmission is optional. Leave it on and comply with the rules or turn it on and suffer no more than a slap on the wrist.

The RC may be dumb re mistakes of the past, but are not stupid as to the future.

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Thanks guys, I was looking for the link for the 2019 RSHYR as we are very likely taking the Cookson back down for another crack at it this year.

One thing I can assure you is that the AIS on the boat WILL be switched ON and will be TRANSMITTING (from the aerial and not just the back of the set)- easy to check

See ya on the water

SS

 





















































































 

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19 hours ago, hoppy said:

This means that AIS transmission is optional. Leave it on and comply with the rules or turn it on and suffer no more than a slap on the wrist.

Yep, thats what I was saying. Except Id add a second recieve only AIS so I could keep an eye on the competitors....

.... if I was of a mind to try and push the boundaries of the rules I've never read.

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2 hours ago, Se7en said:

Yep, thats what I was saying. Except Id add a second recieve only AIS so I could keep an eye on the competitors....

.... if I was of a mind to try and push the boundaries of the rules I've never read.

Just put the transceiver into silent mode.

The best option is to fully comply with the rules, but when you see that there is a tactical advantage from going silent, do it and switch it back on later.

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4 hours ago, Se7en said:

Yep, thats what I was saying. Except Id add a second recieve only AIS so I could keep an eye on the competitors....

.... if I was of a mind to try and push the boundaries of the rules I've never read.

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

Just put the transceiver into silent mode.

The best option is to fully comply with the rules, but when you see that there is a tactical advantage from going silent, do it and switch it back on later.

You two idiots have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. Please try reading the Race Documentation in its entirety as I have suggested if you want your views to be treated seriously. Otherwise you are oxygen thieves.

 

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

Just put the transceiver into silent mode.

The best option is to fully comply with the rules, but when you see that there is a tactical advantage from going silent, do it and switch it back on later.

So WOXI isn't a cheat then?

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

So WOXI isn't a cheat then?

correct.

.
If it is cheating, then the penalty would be time or DSQ
 
 

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

So WOXI isn't a cheat then?

There are hundreds of ways to cheat, particularly in offshore racing. Knowingly not having AIS transmit on and fully operational for all or part of the race is just the latest one.

If you discover that AIS wasn’t on or fully operational for the whole race before the declaration time limit, it should have been declared (or your declaration amended) and CYCA RC should inspect and take a view as to the circumstances.

Ignorance is no excuse under the rules if it was patently obvious that AIS wasn’t on or was malfunctioning.

No need to require protests by other boats.

What did WOXI declare (or amend)?

What did CYCA RC do about it...either way?

Will CYCA RC enforce their own rules this year? They didn’t last year....

 

PS they seem to have have removed last year’s SI’s from the CYCA website. It will be interesting to see what the new ones say re AIS. Will they require all boats to carry spare splitters!!

 

F3D9ABCD-FAA3-460B-90EB-FABD3AD62159.png

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1 hour ago, hoppy said:

 

correct.

.
If it is cheating, then the penalty would be time or DSQ
 
 

So Mark Richards and team are Gods among men!? I thought Jack was saying they are all cheaters!?!

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10 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

You two idiots have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. Please try reading the Race Documentation in its entirety as I have suggested if you want your views to be treated seriously. Otherwise you are oxygen thieves.

 

Calm down Jack, I'd not want to be responsible for you having an infarct.

Why on earth would we want to be taken seriously? No-one is taking MR seriously and he has 9 or so wins to his name.

Personally I don't think that explicitly adding the 'shall not be subject to a protest' clause is moving in the right direction - indeed it is worthy of having fun poked at it. But it's nothing serious, there are plenty of other ways to push the rules and gain a real advantage for those who are so inclined. Colin Chapman's viewpoint of "rules are for the interpretation of wise men and the obedience of fools" may have been coined for ocean racing.

I thought the rule as was used this year was perfectly fine. One, (actually more than one) boat did not comply with that rule, and didn't declare why not at finish. At least one other boat was disadvantaged by this and should therefore have protested. If they had submitted a protest as they should, the events could have been dealt with adequately using the existing rules.

It's no different really than if a boat accidentally runs the engine in gear, but does not declare it, and no-one protests. And the existing rules deal with this just fine.

(I still feel a little dirty when a boat I'm on runs the engines to recharge batteries - but that's just me. I did not even wired the switch into my AIS to enable going dark. )

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12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

You two idiots have absolutely no fucking idea what you are talking about. Please try reading the Race Documentation in its entirety as I have suggested if you want your views to be treated seriously. Otherwise you are oxygen thieves.

 

Some people have a life, unlike you. You'd have to be a pretty sad fuck to read the Race Documentation in its entirety just to make a point on an internet forum. I'll leave the full read to those who are entering the race and losers with no life like yourself.

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2 hours ago, hoppy said:

You'd have to be a pretty sad fuck to read the Race Documentation in its entirety just to make a point on an internet forum. 

I'll leave the full read to those who are entering the race and losers with no life like yourself.

You must find race rules a real inconvenience for when you dream up shit like this.

I know what I'm doing Boxing Day, how about you, watching cricket on TV drinking beer?

16 hours ago, hoppy said:

Just put the transceiver into silent mode.

The best option is to fully comply with the rules, but when you see that there is a tactical advantage from going silent, do it and switch it back on later.

 

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9 hours ago, Sidecar said:

PS they seem to have have removed last year’s SI’s from the CYCA website. It will be interesting to see what the new ones say re AIS. Will they require all boats to carry spare splitters!!

Side they moved the location of the 2018 SI, maybe thinking it was directly connected to the BullShit Meter in the Committee Meeting Room and causing it to spin faster every time someone hit it's linky in my posts. 

Anyway here is new location. 2018 S2H_ SI, pending 2019 SI being published, which I think might contain some more AIS surprises.

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8 hours ago, Se7en said:

Calm down Jack, I'd not want to be responsible for you having an infarct.

Why on earth would we want to be taken seriously? No-one is taking MR seriously and he has 9 or so wins to his name.

Se in hindsight my bad, I should not have joined your post with Hoppalong's, you were not serious, he unfortunately was. 

8 hours ago, Se7en said:

Personally I don't think that explicitly adding the 'shall not be subject to a protest' clause is moving in the right direction - indeed it is worthy of having fun poked at it. But it's nothing serious, there are plenty of other ways to push the rules and gain a real advantage for those who are so inclined. Colin Chapman's viewpoint of "rules are for the interpretation of wise men and the obedience of fools" may have been coined for ocean racing.

Se that 'carve out" of protest provisions for AIS TX and competitors is not designed at all to address compliance, but to stop an inevitable line up outside the protest room. That is a good thing and I suggest everyone will support. It is in fact a defacto response by Black Jack to not protesting. BJ's crime was bleating to the media but not protesting. The RC's crime ignoring WOXI's Declaration far worse than that.

I also think as mentioned in my reply to @Sidecar that when the SI's (which contain further compliance matters not in AS Special Regs) are published they may contain a surprise about that compliance aspect, over and above that contained in the Race Documents "as is" and published to date.

8 hours ago, Se7en said:

I thought the rule as was used this year was perfectly fine. One, (actually more than one) boat did not comply with that rule, and didn't declare why not at finish. At least one other boat was disadvantaged by this and should therefore have protested. If they had submitted a protest as they should, the events could have been dealt with adequately using the existing rules.

I agree the AIS rule last outing was perfectly fine, particularly as it was the subject of pre race briefings, save only for this new protest addition. I think you understate the numbers that some may not have complied, either knowingly and unknowingly.

Both types of people will find it a different environment this outing, if not in the SI when published, they will be addressed at the Pre Race Briefing. For instance AIS RX Tests #1 - #5 outlined upthread and their relationship to competitor Race Declarations.

The RC may be dumb as to events last outing, but they are not stupid as to not ensure a repeat of the bollocking they have got and deserve.

8 hours ago, Se7en said:

It's no different really than if a boat accidentally runs the engine in gear, but does not declare it, and no-one protests. And the existing rules deal with this just fine.

I agree and you could make a list a mile long like nav lights etc under the heading of "self policing" in offshore sailing, which if replaced by more rules about compliance, kills the sport.

8 hours ago, Se7en said:

(I still feel a little dirty when a boat I'm on runs the engines to recharge batteries - but that's just me. I did not even wired the switch into my AIS to enable going dark. )

Se I wasn't too sure to make of this? Deliberately charging batteries with engine in gear, not neutral? Interestingly I did have an experience once where an owner, his boat his pride and joy, wanted to put the engine in gear to load up the engine to preserve its life.

I explained to the owner that if battery charging ceased at a max of 80% State of Charge (SOC), even the toy alternator was generating sufficient load on the engine to alay his concerns. When he disagreed I gave him a choice, "his way or mine" and for the former, "he" NOT "I" would be "signing" the Race Declaration. I was subsequently invited back and thanked for that bit of rules and engineering advice.

Se this detailed response hopefully goes some way to making amends for my bracketing your post with Hoppalong's, a man who has never been in a offshore race and I suspect never will.

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5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

You must find race rules a real inconvenience for when you dream up shit like this.

No, not when I'm entering the race

5 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I know what I'm doing Boxing Day, how about you, watching cricket on TV drinking beer?

We all know what you'll be doing. 

 

 

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7 minutes ago, hoppy said:

No, not when I'm entering the race

We all know what you'll be doing. 

 

 

Please explain Hoppy, it's always amusing.

 

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27 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

Se I wasn't too sure to make of this? Deliberately charging batteries with engine in gear, not neutral? 

To be clear, I meant running the engine in neutral. As far as I know , I have only once been aboard during a race when the motor was run. We were aground at the time, and I believe we retired.

As for the rest, I do think it is a shame that rules become convuluted because people act like lawyers.

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49 minutes ago, hoppy said:

No, not when I'm entering the race

We all know what you'll be doing. 

 

Enter your first offshore race....giggle.

I will be getting salt water wet like most days of the year. You will be just dreaming, drinking and spilling beer in front of the TV, that is guaranteed.

Fucking turnip.

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23 minutes ago, paps49 said:

Please explain Hoppy, it's always amusing.

31 minutes ago, hoppy said:

No, not when I'm entering the race

 

When I entered a race or a series then I took time to read the NOR & SI

 

31 minutes ago, hoppy said:

We all know what you'll be doing. 

Jack will be online 24/7 sharing what he has googled.

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42 minutes ago, Se7en said:

To be clear, I meant running the engine in neutral. As far as I know , I have only once been aboard during a race when the motor was run. We were aground at the time, and I believe we retired.

As for the rest, I do think it is a shame that rules become convuluted because people act like lawyers.

Now I'm really confused? Neutral is fine under all race rules on planet earth.

Rules are what they are in any sport. You are beset by convuluted rules just stepping outside your front door every day. The ones who lawyer up are those looking to break or take advantage of rules against the spirit of what they say, to achieve their own ends and fuck everyone else.

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8 hours ago, hoppy said:

Some people have a life, unlike you. You'd have to be a pretty sad fuck to read the Race Documentation in its entirety just to make a point on an internet forum. I'll leave the full read to those who are entering the race and losers with no life like yourself.

 

37 minutes ago, hoppy said:

When I entered a race or a series then I took time to read the NOR & SI

 

1 hour ago, hoppy said:

No, not when I'm entering the race

So Hoppy you have never ever participated in a offshore race and guaranteed you are not listed as an entrant for one pending.  So you have never read the required rules at all, which is no great revelation by your posts.

Hoppy are you going for some idiot of the year award no one knows about? If so my money is on you.

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46 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

So Hoppy you have never ever participated in a offshore race and guaranteed you are not listed as an entrant for one pending.  So you have never read the required rules at all, which is no great revelation by your posts.

Hoppy are you going for some idiot of the year award no one knows about? If so my money is on you.

Guess what Jack, club races, ORCV races and FOS all have NOR and SI. Google failed you this time....

 

46 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Hoppy are you going for some idiot of the year award no one knows about? If so my money is on you.

It's called the "Jack Sparrow of Sailing Anarchy Biggest Idiot Perpetual trophy" It's never left your trophy cabinet. Named after you and always won by you.

 

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10 minutes ago, hoppy said:

Guess what Jack, club races, ORCV races and FOS all have NOR and SI. Google failed you this time....

But Hoppy no Offshore Regs..that big publication and a race place you have never been or my guess will never ever see. You can counter all you like with ButtHurt, but that is a fact that my guess will never ever change. Man up and live with it son.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Now I'm really confused? Neutral is fine under all race rules on planet earth.

Rules are what they are in any sport. You are beset by convuluted rules just stepping outside your front door every day. The ones who lawyer up are those looking to break or take advantage of rules against the spirit of what they say, to achieve their own ends and fuck everyone else.

Yes, I know running the engine in neutral is fine. But I'd still prefer to compete in a saling race without needing to run an engine at all. (I may have drunkenly got stuck into some of the WOXI crew one year for being a motorboat, and got slapped down when I had to admit we ran out engine to recharge batteries as well.)

Chess is a great game with simple rules and an almost infinite number of outcomes. Sail racing continues to slide closer to being an irritating prelude to the post race arguments.

"Acting like Lawyers" is behaviour where folks try and justify behaviour we all known is against the spirit of the event. Like turning off TX when all your competitors have it on 

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12 hours ago, Se7en said:

Yes, I know running the engine in neutral is fine. But I'd still prefer to compete in a saling race without needing to run an engine at all. (I may have drunkenly got stuck into some of the WOXI crew one year for being a motorboat, and got slapped down when I had to admit we ran out engine to recharge batteries as well.)

Though I sympathise with your sentiment Seven......

Your writing this reminded me of the piece in March issue of Seahorse by David Salter.

He wrote, quite intelligently about the S2H in general terms and its development to what we have today. He quite correctly laments the definition of yachts that use stored power to run their systems - especially and pointedly - electric and hydraulic winches. He compares the both the risk and effort involved in manoevres such as a gybe in proper breeze. Big boats have all crew deployed to do a traditional dip pole gybe. The supermaxis have a powered furler and powered sheet winches. Not a comparable task. (So, Running a engine to maintain battery charge to allow nav lights, instruments and radio use is also not comparable.)

He argues that this distinction should be used to separate the fleets.

The line I liked the most in his piece was where he wrote something along the lines - "Motorbikes do not race in the Tour de France".

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2 hours ago, Boink said:

The line I liked the most in his piece was where he wrote something along the lines - "Motorbikes do not race in the Tour de France".

One consolation to that sentiment is the S2H record holder Commanche was "unpowered" in 2017 race.

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Not to mention the weight of extra crew,  (we old time grinders weren't light),  their gear,  food, water,  beer etc.

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15 hours ago, Turkey Slapper said:

So I can chuck the blackjack line honours TAB tickets out now? No good?

Turkey I realise it is only a consolation prize but the WOXI SPECS do come with range of changeable slides/lenses for modifying history, some good like their 2017/Record win, but some not so good.

IMG_20190411_170011.thumb.jpg.099e120b001b8f7df84de3de7f747b57.jpg

You will find 2 pairs of lenses in a packet marked as follows for your enjoyment.

1. "Black Friday the 4th" 

This slide has the Race Committee announcing that on account of WOXI's Race Declaration indicating "full compliance" it has been found incomplete regarding AIS provisions and therefore under SI Rule 20.2 (c) "A boat which fails to meet the requirements of SI 26 (Declarations) may receive a scoring penalty up to 15% applied by the Race Committee without a hearing (Amends RRS 63.1)." That penalty has been applied to the full extent allowed thus putting WOXI 4th over the line and making "Black Jack" the 2018 LH winner.

2. "Marooned on 8 Fingers Island"

This slide has the Race Committee announcing that the IJ have firstly upheld their Protest on account WOXI's Race Declaration indicated "non-compliance" with AIS provisions and therefore the RC were not relying solely on a report of a competitor with a "conflict of interest" that would naturally make the protest invalid. Secondly the IJ have imposed a 15% scoring penalty thus putting WOXI 4th over the line and making "Black Jack" the 2018 LH winner.

As I said Turkey small consolation, but either way on the Declaration front, you are a winner, if not at the TAB.

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On 4/18/2019 at 12:48 AM, jack_sparrow said:

Turkey I realise it is only a consolation prize but the WOXI SPECS do come with range of changeable slides/lenses for modifying history, some good like their 2017/Record win, but some not so good.

IMG_20190411_170011.thumb.jpg.099e120b001b8f7df84de3de7f747b57.jpg

You will find 2 pairs of lenses in a packet marked as follows for your enjoyment.

1. "Black Friday the 4th" 

This slide has the Race Committee announcing that on account of WOXI's Race Declaration indicating "full compliance" it has been found incomplete regarding AIS provisions and therefore under SI Rule 20.2 (c) "A boat which fails to meet the requirements of SI 26 (Declarations) may receive a scoring penalty up to 15% applied by the Race Committee without a hearing (Amends RRS 63.1)." That penalty has been applied to the full extent allowed thus putting WOXI 4th over the line and making "Black Jack" the 2018 LH winner.

2. "Marooned on 8 Fingers Island"

This slide has the Race Committee announcing that the IJ have firstly upheld their Protest on account WOXI's Race Declaration indicated "non-compliance" with AIS provisions and therefore the RC were not relying solely on a report of a competitor with a "conflict of interest" that would naturally make the protest invalid. Secondly the IJ have imposed a 15% scoring penalty thus putting WOXI 4th over the line and making "Black Jack" the 2018 LH winner.

As I said Turkey small consolation, but either way on the Declaration front, you are a winner, if not at the TAB.

A+

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On 4/17/2019 at 8:50 PM, Boink said:

Though I sympathise with your sentiment Seven......

Your writing this reminded me of the piece in March issue of Seahorse by David Salter.

He wrote, quite intelligently about the S2H in general terms and its development to what we have today. He quite correctly laments the definition of yachts that use stored power to run their systems - especially and pointedly - electric and hydraulic winches. He compares the both the risk and effort involved in manoevres such as a gybe in proper breeze. Big boats have all crew deployed to do a traditional dip pole gybe. The supermaxis have a powered furler and powered sheet winches. Not a comparable task. (So, Running a engine to maintain battery charge to allow nav lights, instruments and radio use is also not comparable.)

He argues that this distinction should be used to separate the fleets.

The line I liked the most in his piece was where he wrote something along the lines - "Motorbikes do not race in the Tour de France".

He would have to find a different analogy for a USA audience......because Lance Armstrong was "recharging his batteries" in the Tour de France.

His range of sunglasses took filtering of fact from fiction to a whole different UV level

1520840730_LanceArmstrongSunglasses.jpg.fcdd6a9dd7f3ca09c3e67bb33770d8ae.jpg

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I am not saying I appreciate it but today’s Tour de France bikes use stored electric energy to shift gears. 

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So I open up my new Seahorse this morning, and what do get on page 27?

A whole new excuse.

The clear inference by Blue Robinson is that the engine could have stalled and on restart tripped out equipment which had to be rebooted so no AIS.

You can't make this shit up.

Wonder how much he got paid for that.

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11 minutes ago, lydia said:

So I open up my new Seahorse this morning, and what do get on page 27?

A whole new excuse.

The clear inference by Blue Robinson is that the engine could have stalled and on restart tripped out equipment which had to be rebooted so no AIS.

You can't make this shit up.

Wonder how much he got paid for that.

Who’s Blue Robinson? And what’s his background, I’ve never heard of him. 

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