Mid

2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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12 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Simple. Outline your complaint about InfoTrack with some detailed backup (as provided with regard to WOXI by many here) and outline what either InfoTrack or any other party should and can do? Unless you do that you blowing your assertion that InfoTrack cheated out of your arse. Once doing that you may then ponder that you are supporting the premise that WOXI cheated.

I'm not. I'm saying Infotracks AIS wasn't transmitting either, yet nothing has been said, no allegations of cheating, no outrage, no othing. It seems most of the fake outrage comes from people who are jealous of Wild Oats XI's achievements, or who just don't like Mark Richards.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

Harburg was doomed the moment he opened his mouth instead of reaching for the red hanky on Wednesday.

This is what can happen when you don't follow the rules.

The very worst outcome for everyone.  The winner has been proven to cheat but wins anyway.

The second place lost because they didn't protest as required.

MR would have been better off in the long run being penalised, instead of taking the silverware as a cheat.

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I'm gutted. I haven't read most of the post result comments so forgive me if I repeat someone else's thoughts.


WOXI was non compliant and they know that to be the case, their skipper admitted this on live TV. Worse still it may well have been deliberate.


Apparently the only reason the protest was ruled invalid was because the IJ believed that the RC only acted because of Black Jacks media comments.

So the RC, the RO, the RSH peeps and Dave Kellet the big shot International rules advisor on the radio vessel did not or would not see for themselves what thousands of people clearly observed right from the race start being WOXI was not transmitting for whatever reason.

If that's self policing you can shove it.

I have no real dog in this fight but for more years than I wish to count the days after Xmas have been devoted to following our countries greatest ocean race along with the Boxing day test match.

Both have now been marred by cheats and I find that a sad reflection of the times we live in. The almighty dollar seems to be the only thing that matters and that's a sad state of affairs.

Time to find a new Xmas tradition me thinks.

 

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31 minutes ago, animeproblem said:

Now I remember the side of smFcfollrauordurkesrelves that was giving me an itchy ignore button. 

 

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17 minutes ago, random said:

This is what can happen when you don't follow the rules.

The very worst outcome for everyone.  The winner has been proven to cheat but wins anyway.

The second place lost because they didn't protest as required.

MR would have been better off in the long run being penalised, instead of taking the silverware as a cheat.

Fuck me Random, are you in therapy? I have agreed with you too many times recently.

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5 minutes ago, forss said:

Infotrack should RAF that would make WOXI even worse cheaters

That would be like asking all the Tour de France riders who have ever been 'on the gear' at anytime in their sporting lives,  to RAF on the Champs Elysee at the end of the race, for the good of the sport. Won't happen. Ever. Will we watch the Grande Depart next year? Of course! 

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9 minutes ago, paps49 said:
28 minutes ago, random said:

This is what can happen when you don't follow the rules.

The very worst outcome for everyone.  The winner has been proven to cheat but wins anyway.

The second place lost because they didn't protest as required.

MR would have been better off in the long run being penalised, instead of taking the silverware as a cheat.

Fuck me Random, are you in therapy? I have agreed with you too many times recently.

Not sure you have seen me on the soapbox here about the obligation that competitors have to call out fouls when they see them, even if they were not directly involved.

But I never expected to see an outcome like this as a result of that not happening.  BJ did not uphold the rules as required and everyone in the sport, including WOXI is worse of for it.

I'm not on therapy, you are starting to come around!

Edit: and I too am gutted.  This really sucks balls and has brought the sport into disrepute.  Must be a 69 call in there somewhere.

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After the hearing Richards was on Sydney TV news saying that the AIS was turned on the whole time. Harburg was also on saying that he never protests.

Oh well.

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4 minutes ago, savoir said:

After the hearing Richards was on Sydney TV news saying that the AIS was turned on the whole time. Harburg was also on saying that he never protests.

Oh well.

Right, so after the data shows it was not transmitting, he claims it was 'turned on'.  Not that it was Transmitting.  You will notice that he as been very careful with his words now.

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27 minutes ago, random said:

...  The winner has been proven to cheat but wins anyway.

...

There hasn't been a hearing on WOXI's lack of AIS transmissions, so saying cheating has been proven is incorrect.  In order to prove it, facts have to be found by a protest committee.

Did all the other boats whose AIS didn't transmit cheat too?  Why aren't you calling them out?  Seems hypocritical to me; though we would like to think that we can hold WOXI to a higher standard given the profile of their program, they still put their foulies on the same way the rest of us do, so unintentional shit can happen to them the same as the other boats who didn't transmit.  

They were cheating if they knew they had to transmit AIS and intentionally did not do so.  If you believe that to be the case, provide some evidence.

 

 

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13 minutes ago, dash34 said:

There hasn't been a hearing on WOXI's lack of AIS transmissions, so saying cheating has been proven is incorrect.  In order to prove it, facts have to be found by a protest committee.

Did all the other boats whose AIS didn't transmit cheat too?  Why aren't you calling them out?  Seems hypocritical to me; though we would like to think that we can hold WOXI to a higher standard given the profile of their program, they still put their foulies on the same way the rest of us do, so unintentional shit can happen to them the same as the other boats who didn't transmit.  

They were cheating if they knew they had to transmit AIS and intentionally did not do so.  If you believe that to be the case, provide some evidence.

 

 

Fucking weasel

image.thumb.png.7a14218ea5eb27a585a173dcb75ff8ef.png

Intention has nothing to do with it.

The log shows it was not working.  There is no excuse.  They are either cheats or incompetent.

Weasels like you should be shit on and the world and the sport would be better for it.

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15 minutes ago, dash34 said:

There hasn't been a hearing on WOXI's lack of AIS transmissions, so saying cheating has been proven is incorrect.  In order to prove it, facts have to be found by a protest committee.

Did all the other boats whose AIS didn't transmit cheat too?  Why aren't you calling them out?  Seems hypocritical to me; though we would like to think that we can hold WOXI to a higher standard given the profile of their program, they still put their foulies on the same way the rest of us do, so unintentional shit can happen to them the same as the other boats who didn't transmit.  

They were cheating if they knew they had to transmit AIS and intentionally did not do so.  If you believe that to be the case, provide some evidence.

 

 

Again I have to agree with Random, weasel words. Of course they knew they were required to transmit, they chose not to.

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Was Senor Villa available to be interviewed at the hearing? Oh sorry, on a plane to the next gig, 'not my problem' I just do what the boss tell's me.

Sport is now an oxy moron.

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1 hour ago, Forourselves said:

I'm not. I'm saying Infotracks AIS wasn't transmitting either, yet nothing has been said, no allegations of cheating, no outrage, no othing. It seems most of the fake outrage comes from people who are jealous of Wild Oats XI's achievements, or who just don't like Mark Richards

Thats good.Because the mistake made by a fan is that anyone who disagrees with them is somehow a hater. Nothing could be further from the truth. There are some great balanced opinions here which should be absorbed, even though they might happen to collide with a WOXI fans view or to the contrary. Sorry about the sheep thing,, the devil made me do it.

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nice to see the IJ's still doing their best to rule any and all protests invalid .........................................

 

 

 

 

nothings changed .

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^ agreed. 

Ps. Can you please buy a boat this year? Put all of us out of our misery. That Mumm looked the goods. Or the Ebay'd Ross over in NZ. 

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I feel bad for the rest of the crew. They probably want to celebrate the win but.....most likely none of them wants to show up at customs house now. A bitter, bitter win. And their skipper is to blame. He has let them all down, instead of having their backs. I’m assuming that the number of assholes is limited and that most of the crew are decent and honest people, of course. And even if they aren’t, their skipper has stolen an honorable win from them. After all the hard work. Poor people. I hope they turn their backs on him. 

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

Thats good.Because the mistake made by a fan is that anyone who disagrees with them is somehow a hater. Nothing could be further from the truth. there are some great balanced opinions here which should be absorbed, even though they might happen to collide with a WOXI fans view or to the contrary.

Thats true. Its perfectly fine to have an opinion you are confident to express, just as it is for someone to disagree with that opinion. There is, however, a difference between having an opinion, and accusing a respected sailor and competitor of cheating, with no evidence to support that accusation except your opinion.

It is extremely disrespectful to that person/ people to throw around baseless accusations with no evidence. Am I a Wild Oats supporter? Yes, because I believe they have earned everything they have achieved by beating every competitor, every boat they have raced against.

You don't have to like the Oatley family, or Mark Richards as a person, but a true sportsman, a true sailing fan/ supporter should, and will respect everything Mark Richards has achieved, including skippering the most dominant boat in Sydney to Hobart history to a record breaking 9 line honors titles. 

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4 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

I feel bad for the rest of the crew. They probably want to celebrate the win but.....most likely none of them wants to show up at customs house now. A bitter, bitter win. And their skipper is to blame. He has let them all down, instead of having their backs. I’m assuming that the number of assholes is limited and that most of the crew are decent and honest people, of course. And even if they aren’t, their skipper has stolen an honorable win from them. After all the hard work. Poor people. I hope they turn their backs on him. 

indeed , the question still remains unanswered .

whilst the IJ's have decreided the protest invalid , nothing has been done to address the initial accusation .

the sport of sailing is again the loser .

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1 hour ago, forss said:

Infotrack should RAF that would make WOXI even worse cheaters

This

All boats that had any rules issues during the race should raf.

 

Its a shame principles are no longer important....

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

There is, however, a difference between having an opinion, and accusing a respected sailor and competitor of cheating, with no evidence to support that accusation except your opinion.

What about the AIS log showing it was not transmitting?

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

with no evidence to support that accusation except your opinion.

in this case there is evidence .

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

Thats true. Its perfectly fine to have an opinion you are confident to express, just as it is for someone to disagree with that opinion. There is, however, a difference between having an opinion, and accusing a respected sailor and competitor of cheating, with no evidence to support that accusation except your opinion.

It is extremely disrespectful to that person/ people to throw around baseless accusations with no evidence. Am I a Wild Oats supporter? Yes, because I believe they have earned everything they have achieved by beating every competitor, every boat they have raced against.

You don't have to like the Oatley family, or Mark Richards as a person, but a true sportsman, a true sailing fan/ supporter should, and will respect everything Mark Richards has achieved, including skippering the most dominant boat in Sydney to Hobart history to a record breaking 9 line honors titles. 

What a load of bullshit.

Mark Richards is a cheater. Proven by last years protest and subsequent ruling.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

, but a true sportsman, a true sailing fan/ supporter should, and will respect everything Mark Richards has achieved,

regardless of how the achievement was made ...................... I think not .

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Just now, Ease the sheet. said:

What a load of bullshit.

Mark Richards is a cheater. Proven by last years protest and subsequent ruling.

"Proven by last years protest and subsequent ruling." So anyone who has ever been penalised during a race is a cheater? That would make a whole hell of a lot of sailors in the world today cheaters.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

"Proven by last years protest and subsequent ruling." So anyone who has ever been penalised during a race is a cheater? That would make a whole hell of a lot of sailors in the world today cheaters.

What about the AIS log fan boy?

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7 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

"Proven by last years protest and subsequent ruling." So anyone who has ever been penalised during a race is a cheater? That would make a whole hell of a lot of sailors in the world today cheaters.

So be it. Redemption is only a turn or 2 away.

You fuck one goat.......

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Just now, Forourselves said:

"Proven by last years protest and subsequent ruling." So anyone who has ever been penalised during a race is a cheater? That would make a whole hell of a lot of sailors in the world today cheaters.

I don’t think he meant it like that. Protests on starboard/port/tacking situations are highly subjective and we all have probably been in situations without being cheaters. Now, the situation last year was pretty clear for us who saw the footage, but we didn’t see it from their pow. It was stupid of them to not do the 720. But they have the right to have another opinion. And then they lost the protest. 

This years situation is different. There are no subjective opinions. Everything is proven. The whole world could see it during the race and then the skipper said on television that the rule wasn’t mandatory. He was of course wrong. It’s gobsmacking that a skipper doesn’t know the rules. 

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1 minute ago, Ease the sheet. said:

So be it.

You fuck one goat.......

Sounds like you've fucked one goat too many...

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Just now, Ease the sheet. said:

Especially the cross country bit....

If the AIS was only picked up by terrestrial stations, perhaps they were having an equipment problem rather than cheating.  Not sure it would absolve them.

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1 minute ago, NORBowGirl said:

I don’t think he meant it like that. Protests on starboard/port/tacking situations are highly subjective and we all have probably been in situations without being cheaters. Now, the situation last year was pretty clear for us who saw the footage, but we didn’t see it from their pow. It was stupid of them to not do the 720. But they have the right to have another opinion. And then they lost the protest. 

This years situation is different. There are no subjective opinions. Everything is proven. The whole world could see it during the race and then the skipper said on television that the rule wasn’t mandatory. He was of course wrong. It’s gobsmacking that a skipper doesn’t know the rules. 

So he was wrong. Being wrong doesn't make you a cheat.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

Sounds like you've fucked one goat too many...

What about the AIS log fan boy?

You still saying it's just opinion?

"So have you ever done a Hobart?"

"Yeah, one or two."

"Ever been on WOXI?"

" Uhummmm, gotta go, nice meeting you!"

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1 minute ago, random said:

What about the AIS log fan boy?

You still saying it's just opinion?

"So have you ever done a Hobart?"

"Yeah, one or two."

"Ever been on WOXI?"

" Uhummmm, gotta go, nice meeting you!"

No protest, no ruling. You can't cherry pick the rules.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

No protest, no ruling. You can't cherry pick the rules.

Yeah but what about the AIS Log fan boy?

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Just now, Forourselves said:

No protest, no ruling. You can't cherry pick the rules.

I find that interesting though.  If the skipper admits he didn't follow the rules, does there need to be a protest?

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Just now, MauiPunter said:

I find that interesting though.  If the skipper admits he didn't follow the rules, does there need to be a protest?

Yes.

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Just now, Forourselves said:

So he was wrong. Being wrong doesn't make you a cheat.

Last year, yes. This year? Maybe he in fact is wrong, but anyway should have been penalized....the worst, I think, is the lack of honor. He should have retired. That’s the only way to redeem yourself. Now there’s no redemption, and he takes the rest of his crew with him straight to hell. (Hell might be customs house.....it gets aggressive there sometimes....)

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1 minute ago, MauiPunter said:

I find that interesting though.  If the skipper admits he didn't follow the rules, does there need to be a protest?

Not really. This is when you save everybody’s energy and your own honor, and retire....

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3 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

No protest, no ruling. You can't cherry pick the rules.

Absolutely correct. Now knowing Mark Richards cheats, and then has the ego to look smug about it, is a different chestnut altogether. 

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Just now, NORBowGirl said:

Last year, yes. This year? Maybe he in fact is wrong, but anyway should have been penalized....the worst, I think, is the lack of honor. He should have retired. That’s the only way to redeem yourself. Now there’s no redemption, and he takes the rest of his crew with him straight to hell. (Hell might be customs house.....it gets aggressive there sometimes....)

So Bouwe Bekking has no "Honor"? Stu Bannatyne has no "Honor", Chris Nicholson has no "Honor"? All of the Infotrack crew are going straight to hell? 

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Under the "Basic Principles" of our sport it CLEARLY states "A fundamental principle of sportsmanship is that when competitors break a rule they will promptly take a penalty, which may be to retire." (It's in the very front of the Rule Book guys)

WOXI weren't transmitting as required by the SIs

Should I have to say any more?

Attaching a picture a friend here in China sent me.

 

IMG_7922.JPG

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:
1 minute ago, MauiPunter said:

I find that interesting though.  If the skipper admits he didn't follow the rules, does there need to be a protest?

Yes.

If a fan boy says his hero didn't cheat, but the AIS log shows the Tx was switched off after testing, does that make the fan boy a liar?

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Would it be suspicious now if one of the last place finishers issue a protest?  :D

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1 minute ago, Maw said:

Absolutely correct. Now knowing Mark Richards cheats, and then has the ego to look smug about it, is a different chestnut altogether. 

The old green eyed monster...

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1 minute ago, random said:

If a fan boy says his hero didn't cheat, but the AIS log shows the Tx was switched off after testing, does that make the fan boy a liar?

Just misguided

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5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So he was wrong. Being wrong doesn't make you a cheat.

Not doing turns, then defending the indefensible makes him a cheat.

You make a mistake,  you own it. You show some humility. Not Richards.

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

The old green eyed monster...

I was actually a Mark Richards fan until the last few years. I don't like what I see anymore. 

And now he cheats . 

It's like watching a favorite uncle slide into alcoholism, not enjoyable, but denying it isn't good for anyone.. 

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Time to get off those high horse's 

This is just a distasteful lynch mob 

If Juan Vila says he turned it on we have to believe him the Ais systems are obviously unreliable since heaps of boats weren't showing up Infotrack included this has just become a personal vendetta and very biased

 

Oats sailed a better race no Ais transmission would have changed what happened on the water. Let's celebrate an epic race from all campaigns that had us on the edge of our seats. This whole internet outrage bollox you guys seem to hold onto is actually not how the real world think and operate.

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

So Bouwe Bekking has no "Honor"? Stu Bannatyne has no "Honor", Chris Nicholson has no "Honor"? All of the Infotrack crew are going straight to hell? 

All boats who didn’t comply, should retire, yes. 

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2 minutes ago, random said:

If a fan boy says his hero didn't cheat, but the AIS log shows the Tx was switched off after testing, does that make the fan boy a liar?

In a court of law, If a judge rules not guilty, but you say the defendant is guilty, does that mean the defendant goes to jail? 

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Just now, NORBowGirl said:

All boats who didn’t comply, should retire, yes. 

And then you woke up. You win some, you lose some. While you're moaning about MR being a cheat, and having an ego (what sport champion doesn't) he'll be celebrating his 9th line honors title. 

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Just now, Forourselves said:

In a court of law, If a judge rules not guilty, but you say the defendant is guilty, does that mean the defendant goes to jail? 

ah , but the judge did not rule not guilty .

 

indeed the judge did not rule at all ........................

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Have we had anyone from the race management team explain why no one other than Sailing Anarchy forum members and the odd retired Qantas Engineer on the lower north shore of Sydney seemed to watch the AIS tracks throughout the race?  After making their use mandatory in the SI's???

Its just so  ... odd. And frustrating.

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3 hours ago, nimbus said:

Is it worth mentioning that WOXI was represented by Glenn Bourke and Stephen Quigley in the room? Is it unusual for the skipper not to be there?

 

3 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

No.

Probably quite smart actually.

You have heard MR speak to the press right? Would you put that to an IJ if you had a choice?  

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1 minute ago, Mid said:

ah , but the judge did not rule not guilty .

 

indeed the judge did not rule at all ........................

The case was thrown out because the complainant dropped the charges. Still a ruling.

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5 minutes ago, NORBowGirl said:

All boats who didn’t comply, should retire, yes. 

So around 28 boats have had AIS issue they must all be "cheats" Where is the unbalanced vitriol towards them?

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

In a court of law, If a judge rules not guilty, but you say the defendant is guilty, does that mean the defendant goes to jail? 

No, there was no trial.  The data shows they are guilty, the judge said they had been charged incorrectly.

You really are Richards type aren't you?  What about the AIS log?

Why are WOXI fan boys all

image.png.a0ed798da15e29c337a42678089d2aee.png

 

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nope , no ruling 

that was the very point of declaring the protest invalid , to avoid making a ruling .

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5 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

In a court of law, If a judge rules not guilty, but you say the defendant is guilty, does that mean the defendant goes to jail? 

Ah but the judges DID NOT say "not guilty" did they. They said "Protest not valid" In other words they said the due process was not followed. 

EDIT : Sorry Mid, virtual repeat of what you posted moments before me

 

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The case was thrown out because the complainant dropped the charges. Still a ruling.

No.  It was more like fruit of the poisoned tree

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2 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

So around 28 boats have had AIS issue they must all be "cheats" Where us the unbalanced vitriol towards them?

Apples & Oranges dear boy. Have any of THEM declared on camera that AIS is not mandatory then changed their story?

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Just now, shanghaisailor said:

Ah but the judges DID NOT say "not guilty" did they. They said "Protest not valid" In other words they said the due process was not followed. 

 

The case was for all intents and purposes, thrown out because the complainant didn't want to press charges. No case, no ruling, end of story.

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3 hours ago, nimbus said:

Is it worth mentioning that WOXI was represented by Glenn Bourke and Stephen Quigley in the room? Is it unusual for the skipper not to be there?

I don’t think so. You’d send the person with the most experience in the protest room. Typically somebody with a lot of dinghy experience or qualified referee ;) That’s not always the skipper. 

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2 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Time to get off those high horse's 

This is just a distasteful lynch mob 

If Juan Vila says he turned it on we have to believe him the Ais systems are obviously unreliable since heaps of boats weren't showing up Infotrack included this has just become a personal vendetta and very biased

 

Oats sailed a better race no Ais transmission would have changed what happened on the water. Let's celebrate an epic race from all campaigns that had us on the edge of our seats. This whole internet outrage bollox you guys seem to hold onto is actually not how the real world think and operate.

It's not high horses at all. The sport is self policing as was made evident in the hearing, and as such we need to highlight when one of us takes off his head and puts on a pumpkin.

We've all turned AIS off in races when it isn't against the rules. But the apex of our sport, like any sport, should be aware we hold them as a minimum to the same standard as we'd expect from your mate on his boat in the local club race. 

If my best mate did the same thing? I'd have the same opinion . 

AIS....now it's unreliable is it? 

 

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1 minute ago, Forourselves said:

The case was for all intents and purposes, thrown out because the complainant didn't want to press charges. No case, no ruling, end of story.

u-turn-prohibited-sign.gif

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1 minute ago, Spoonie said:

No.  It was more like fruit of the poisoned tree

No. It was more like the wrong party protested.

The protest was ruled invalid based on an "administrative error".

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4 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The case was thrown out because the complainant dropped the charges. Still a ruling.

Not a ruling on the merits of the case only the merits of the process & the complainant didn't DROP THE CHARGES, the case was NOT accepted as valid. Entirely different thing.

Keep tying yourselves up in knots boys.

 

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Anyway, this could run and run and I have better things to do.

Catch you on the next thread guys

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2 minutes ago, Forourselves said:

The case was for all intents and purposes, thrown out because the complainant didn't want to press charges. No case, no ruling, end of story.

You obviously didn't read the ruling.

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Just now, shanghaisailor said:

Apples & Oranges dear boy. Have any of THEM declared on camera that AIS is not mandatory then changed their story?

And there we have it! the AIS isn't the issue here, the TV interview afterward is the issue. Richards was wrong. Being wrong doesn't make you a cheat. You don't have to like the guy, but accusing him of cheating just because you don't like him is wrong.

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6 minutes ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

So around 28 boats have had AIS issue they must all be "cheats" Where is the unbalanced vitriol towards them?

If they did it on purpose, yes. If they wasn’t aware of the rule, no. 

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