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2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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Technical Question

All the fuss about the “AIS logs”. ... do they Prove that the AIS was not transmitting or just that the AIS was signal was not being recieved?

 

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4 hours ago, NORBowGirl said:

I feel bad for the rest of the crew. They probably want to celebrate the win but.....most likely none of them wants to show up at customs house now. A bitter, bitter win. And their skipper is to blame. He has let them all down, instead of having their backs. I’m assuming that the number of assholes is limited and that most of the crew are decent and honest people, of course. And even if they aren’t, their skipper has stolen an honorable win from them. After all the hard work. Poor people. I hope they turn their backs on him. 

I can only say I would be embarrassed by this move....but...had a nav guy say "lets go dark" in the Middle Sea race....owner of the boat said.....

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1 minute ago, TPG said:

Well if were gonna, again, be all Corinthian and shit, why didn't anyone get on the vhf and tell them their ais was fucked? 

I don’t know. Maybe this environment is too competitive.

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1 hour ago, jack_sparrow said:

I have just seen some Press Releases distributed earlier today post ruling by the WOXI camp to assist the media, both sailing and mainstream write stuff. It is like one is reading Hitlers PR after conquering Poland.

Links?

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1 minute ago, NORBowGirl said:

I don’t know. Maybe this environment is too competitive.

I agree, the corinthian thing to do would Be RAF. And since most here are relatively amateur and corinthian it explains the fervor over WOXI’ s behaviour.

However to expect any of the top 4 in this years race to behave in a corinthian fashion with so much money involved is probably a little naive. Still a cracking race though.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, TPG said:

Well if were gonna, again, be all Corinthian and shit, why didn't anyone get on the vhf and tell them their ais was fucked? 

Well a journey starts with one step.

Clearly the race has lost the spirit. If any top boat started to behave honourably again it might have some knock on effect. Currently it is too competitive. Too may egos to be bruised. It takes cojones to RAF*, but the respect garnered, and the example provided could have a huge effect. Similarly, making the call on a failed AIS should as a matter of principle, and sets the right example. IMHO if the big boys started to act this way it would not take too long for the culture to change. But when your ego is bigger than your balls, well you get what we have.

* Yes I know RAF isn't a thing anymore, but IMHO removing it as an explicit act has lost some of the intrinsic value embodied in the action.

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59 minutes ago, TPG said:

So if this was a clear cut issue, why didn't all of the other supermaxis submit protests? Why only BJ?

Are you fuckin brain dead?? 

BJ DID NOT LODGE A PROTEST. They had cry on National TV without a hanky and it seems without any idea of the RRS if they expected that to work.

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No ...as I said above...we were using the AIS to monitor the boats around us...as everyone else was...to remove yourself from the chessboard was just considered bad play...we know who we were....

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Are you fuckin brain dead?? 

BJ DID NOT LODGE A PROTEST. They had cry on National TV without a hanky and it seems little idea of the RRS if they expected that to work.

Jack jack jack, turn down the tens unit on your balls, you're making a scene. My bad for the statement, why did they cry to the media and not suck it up and file a formal protest is what I meant.

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8 hours ago, Liquid Assett NZ said:

Around 25-30 % 

 

But hey let's just bash the Woxi team because they are just too good 

Do you actually have some evidence of that?

Just to be clear - In my view, if any other boat can be shown to not have their AIS on when the SIs explicitly required them, they too should should be penalized.  This is not about WOXI, its about understanding and respect for the rules, and the level playing field that should result.

I have only sailed in the US, Caribbean and Europe. In my experience, the Europeans seem to universally use AIS whereas the American's use it when it suits them.  The European races I have participated in all have explicitly required that the AIS be used.  The American races almost all have optional use.  I personally prefer optional since I feel as if the use of AIS results in less interesting racing (e.g. follow the leader) but regardless of how I feel about it, rules are rules.

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15 minutes ago, dachopper said:

Can't anyone who is still racing, lodge a protest now?

 

Yes, but only if: 1. As soon as they saw it on their screen that WOXI was not displayed they put up a red flag (days ago); 2. They informed WOXI as soon as possible; 3. They fill out a protest form within the time limit.

They do not get to learn about it when they hit the dock and initiate a protest as the information was available to them for days.  This protest would not get very far either.

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21 minutes ago, TPG said:

Jack jack jack, turn down the tens unit on your balls, you're making a scene. My bad for the statement, why did they cry to the media and not suck it up and file a formal protest is what I meant.

Mate the normal answer to that question on social media is I say it is "sitting inside the heads of 2 or 3 people so who knows"? 

Let me have a sundowner as this race has worn me out and I will think about a more erudite reply; and if made, I will probably regret doing so. 

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12 hours ago, savoir said:

Then why does the engineer effectively say " I can't see a reason why anybody would want to turn it off " when his boat had a custom fitted switch for exactly that purpose ? He might even have been the guy who fitted the switch.

you are dick. The switch could be there for the reasons i previously stated which has nothing to do with any engineers opinion. i was simply stating that they are not guilty if it is possible to turn AIS off which you could clearly read... 

 

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15 minutes ago, Rail Meat said:

Do you actually have some evidence of that?

Just to be clear - In my view, if any other boat can be shown to not have their AIS on when the SIs explicitly required them, they too should should be penalized.  This is not about WOXI, its about understanding and respect for the rules, and the level playing field that should result.

I have only sailed in the US, Caribbean and Europe. In my experience, the Europeans seem to universally use AIS whereas the American's use it when it suits them.  The European races I have participated in all have explicitly required that the AIS be used.  The American races almost all have optional use.  I personally prefer optional since I feel as if the use of AIS results in less interesting racing (e.g. follow the leader) but regardless of how I feel about it, rules are rules.

Agree.

I have been racing in Europe and the Atlantic in fleets where not everyone even has AIS! If you have a small boat and not much money why should you be forced to buy an AIS kit if you want to go racing?

Racing has been fine long before AIS was invented and racing does not need it and so I think its use should be entirely optional. Making it a race rule seems unnecessary and bordering on the stupid because its just asking for disputes like this to crop up and spoil the sport.

But, let's not pretend that having the AIS plot of all your opponents isn't a great help, especially if they don't have yours!

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Whats sad is that going forward, everyone can turn it off without impact. Either they don''t get protested or all they have to say is that they had the switch in the on position and they get off scott free.

 

The goal of safety has gone out the door.

It was unfair for the other boats to be seen but not WOXI, but the goal of the rule was safety - hard to believe the RC is not authorized to maintain the safety rules. Guess life rafts are optional now too?

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26 minutes ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Yes, but only if: 1. As soon as they saw it on their screen that WOXI was not displayed they put up a red flag (days ago); 2. They informed WOXI as soon as possible; 3. They fill out a protest form within the time limit.

They do not get to learn about it when they hit the dock and initiate a protest as the information was available to them for days.  This protest would not get very far either.

Because this is a safety issue I don’t understand why a boat can’t protest if they finding out after getting to the dock. 

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3 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

Whats sad is that going forward, everyone can turn it off without impact. Either they don''t get protested or all they have to say is that they had the switch in the on position and they get off scott free.

 

The goal of safety has gone out the door.

It was unfair for the other boats to be seen but not WOXI, but the goal of the rule was safety - hard to believe the RC is not authorized to maintain the safety rules. Guess life rafts are optional now too?

Which is why for the RdR they required that we have AIS on and transmitting at the dock for 24+ hours before the race.  That way there would be no excuses about it not functioning.

I have been incredibly fortunate to be able to do some amazing racing.  I am going to keep racing in the events that are readily available to me, but my bucket list of remaining races that I would really regret not being able to do  to do is pretty short: the Middle Sea race, a Transpac and/or Pac Cup, and Sidney Hobart.  God help me, but I even have gone so far as to give some thought to the logistics and cost of getting Dragon down to Australia to do the race, even knowing that it would be a lark given that there are no other Class40s down there to get any class racing in.  This outcome takes some of the shine off the race, knowing that rules won's be enforced and boats can get away with unfair advantages without honor.

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Because they are not dicks, and probably want to get to the bar asap. It's over, no one lodged a valid protest and no one finishing now would care. 

There are rules for protests too. I wish WOXI had done the right thing, and I'm not sure they did but it's up to the competitors to protest if WOXI doesn't retire. And there is no reason they should retire as they have clearly stated that they thought they were transmitting. Richo's statement at the dock is not conclusive because he was asked about a tracker.. not AIS. Investigative journalism is not in that person's future. 

PS- I am happy for the result but no fan of any boat. I thought it was a great race.

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..and the fact that WOXI could see the speed and shifts of their competitors, and their competitors could not, doesn't matter?

As Paul Elvstrom famously stated, '"You haven't won the race, if in winning the race you have lost the respect of your competitors."

 

WOXI should just go buy a pickle dish - it would be cheaper and they wouldn't look like dicks in the end....

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There will always be those who either don't play by, or don't understand, the rules.

If, and it is an  "IF", WOXI was not transmitting AND they knew it then Basic Principles in the RRS states they should retire. But it is an IF! No accusations.

If, and this time I don't think it is an IF, Blackjack thought WOXI wasn't transmitting then they should have protested.

We are a self policing sport and when I run rules seminars I always make two points right at the beginning.

1. You should use the rules to the absolute limit -and that includes all relevant rules, the RRS, the SI's any class rules or national prescriptions etc (that's what they are there for) BUT you can only do that if you know the rules or you may overstep the mark. I would expect anyone on the race course to have rules knowledge. Could you imagine playing chess if you didn't know how to move the knight?

2. If you think someone has overstepped that mark then you SHOULD protest otherwise the self policing concept falls apart. At the very least if their infraction is through ignorance they will know the next time. 

The protest procedure has two functions in my view, firstly to penalise the deliberate rule breakers and secondly to educate those sailors who don't know the rules sufficiently.

The other thing that needs to happen is for the media, social media and anti social media to change their mindset and stop calling a protestor the bad boy. Talk of a race win through a protest being "hollow" is WRONG. However a race win through not following the rules most certainly is a hollow victory. Again - no accusations.

As Dark Horse stated "You don't win a race etc etc" - Elvstrom would be turning  in his grave.

SS

 

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Apologists be like - 'i touched a mark that no one else saw, didn't spin and wasn't protested... but it didn't change the race outcome so I'm still happy to hold up this trophy....'

 

It's a little thing but it's everything. 

 

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1 hour ago, DarkHorse said:

Whats sad is that going forward, everyone can turn it off without impact. Either they don''t get protested or all they have to say is that they had the switch in the on position and they get off scott free.

 

The goal of safety has gone out the door.

It was unfair for the other boats to be seen but not WOXI, but the goal of the rule was safety - hard to believe the RC is not authorized to maintain the safety rules. Guess life rafts are optional now too?

 No, the rules and repercussions will be spelled out. Stop crying.

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Wow, SA is getting soft.  Only 4 pages 12 hours post protest decision?!  I expected better.

  * WOXI is the best (re)designed and (re)built boat for the (In shore / coastal) ocean races like the S2H.

  * WOXI sailed the best race tactically and her not broadcasting AIS had nothing to do with the others screwing up and letting her through; if they can't figure out where she is and what she is doing when she is that close they are wankers who need a naviguesser who can step away from the computer screen once in a while and go up on deck and look around.

  * Outside of Team USA BWM Oracle or whatever those AC tosser were named, WOXI are the best cheaters in sailing.

  * Somebody said that Mark Richards is the biggest embarrassment in sailing though the Oatley family is in second and coming on fast; both are slated to join the Trump Administration (needed a PA angle)

#are they really all decedents of British convicts?

:ph34r:

OK come on now I expect to see at least another 10 pages by the time I am back from sailing.  Go...

 

 

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The tech behind AIS is pretty cool, but it's also limited.
For those that don't know (I'll keep this quick), AIS is a mesh-based information system and when used with a transceiver (not just a receiver) produces, receives and relays information to any other device within the mesh network within its range.

What can impact the range or the ability to transmit and receive?

AIS works off of VHF radio technology - pretty slick actually, but it requires a GPS input signal to create data relative to the transmitting boat, and must have a VHF antennae to receiver other signals from other boats and transmit that information and its own information to other members of the mesh. IF there were sufficient boats within line of sight, you could see every boat in the fleet during the RS2H race. So, if an AIS signal is not being received, the first question should be: Were they outside of the line of sight transmission capability of the sending and/or receiving unit? 

That's right - you have to take into account both stations. Recently I was moving my boat to Miami from Palm Beach for the start of the Miami to Nassau Race. Another competitor was about 10 miles ahead of me (unbeknownst to either of us) and saw my boat pop up on his AIS. He called me on the phone and joked that we should race to the marina for beers. I mentioned that I couldn't see him, to which he replied, "I know, I've got a transmission issue somewhere in my system." AIS transceiver connected to a dedicated antennae? What's the height of the whip? did you solder the connections? Are they gold connections? Did you use dielectric gel? What's the impedance of the cable? Are you using a splitter? Is the splitter powered? Does the splitter have power? Is the antennae tuned to work as an AIS antennae for max distance? 

From a personal AIS standpoint, the ability to receive and transmit is PARAMOUNT. MAN OVER BOARD!!! great! Pull the personal AIS and the ENTIRE fleet can know where you are if EVERYONE's equipment is working properly at max distance increasing the chance of rescue, not just by the fleet but by coast guard as well. Imagine how easy it is for rescue teams to home in on a personal AIS from 50 miles out if EVERYONE in the mesh system is working properly. But if a racer is in "stealth" mode, that poor bastard in the water doesn't get transmitted to the rest of the mesh. Example, Wild Oats loses a guy. Assuming that crew are wearing personal AIS, the chartplotter should get an immediate notification and overlay of the gps location, but that's limited to about 3 miles maximum. At night, going 24 miles per hour, that poor floating bastard could be out of transmission range long before he's noticed gone, and long before Oats can get her rig in order to turn around. However, IF she was NOT in stealth mode, her mast could have not only received the signal, but ALSO sent it to the rest of the fleet, at which point multiple boats would get an AIS notification of a MOB, with GPS coordinates, etc.

AIS is NOT just about a tactical advantage. So, anywho, just some thoughts on how cool AIS is, and why it's important that it works all the time.

Cheers.

Jason

 

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3 hours ago, dachopper said:

Can't anyone who is still racing, lodge a protest now?

 

3 hours ago, Glenn McCarthy said:

Yes, but only if: 1. As soon as they saw it on their screen that WOXI was not displayed they put up a red flag (days ago); 2. They informed WOXI as soon as possible; 3. They fill out a protest form within the time limit.

They do not get to learn about it when they hit the dock and initiate a protest as the information was available to them for days.  This protest would not get very far either

WARNING

I’m sleep deprived and fucked. Following a lousy day race on line has killed me more than a VG or god forbid a real RTW one.

If you have some smart fuck reply without some degree of intelligence (not much required) to this post be warned. I will send @mad and my ex mother in law around to your place to tear your bloody arms off. The  latter is good at it. I can only now type using my nose and in upper case using my dick.

As every good story needs a Prelude, this is mine.

PRELUDE

I have no one to thank. I do apologise however to those who are thinking “why hasn’t the Sparrow given me a Likey today. I ran out because it seems there is some limit here on SA after Randumb gave me 567 dislikes in 30 minutes and the ED noticed something was amiss.

So to those two posts above which has sent my nose going mad. Chopper a useless fool at best and Glenn who has forgotten more about RRS than most here know except @shanghaisailor,  graciously replies to the fool? What is that I say to myself, Glenn stops there like a pregnant lady caught crossing the street and no more?

THE STORY

Glenn you lazy sod there is one mechanism available, much as I think it is an abhorrent rule in its current form.

In this case we have here a Protest by the RC that has been determined by the IJ to be invalid so normally end of story.

However if any competitor or non-competitors alike were of the view the PC/IJ were not provided with a true statement of fact by the Protester, in this case the RC, and used by and as published by the PC/IJ to principally support their decision to deem the Protest invalid, then that decision is potentially open to being overruled under Rule 69 on the basis the facts presented by the Protester, in this case by a RC and having far wider implications than a sole protester, so bringing the sport into disrepute under Rule 69.

It may sound like a long bow to draw but if any aspect of those facts presented by the RC to the PC/IJ are shown to be factually incorrect and they are instrumental to the decision made by the PC/IJ, then it is game on. To avoid any misunderstanding and state the obvious this prospect of a Rule 69 Protest by a third party has nothing to do with WOXI infringing or not. It is directed solely at the RC and the facts they presented to the PC/IJ. The aguement is because of this the PC/IJ had no option but to rule the RC's own Protest invalid, thus prventing the nature of the Protest being properly examined and determined. 

I would not mention this aspect unless I believed it applied here and in particular these statements of fact as  presented by the RC and read in conjunction. They are:

Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the Race Committee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its own investigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest.

Diagram: Not Applicable.

http://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/3438889/ccf29122018.pdf

Put simply #3 (my bold emphasis) is horseshit unless the RC were hiding under a rock while the RO's own media people were launching off the boat interviews into the Interweb and national TV stations were all falling over them selves to keep up with live crosses. This is where BJ's complaint came to light, not some report lodged with the RC hours later.

Now Glen I have a very big question of you. But before asking it I note you and I have very similar views and we both clearly don’t have a dog in the fight as indicated by our respective posts below, albeit in your case you were disadvantaged by not having full information to hand making yours thinking a competitor protest was afoot, due to time zone delay in the USA  3rd world.

On 12/29/2018 at 2:35 AM, Glenn McCarthy said:

Chickenshit to turn off AIS, Chickenshit to protest over it.

 

12 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

If Matt Allen as President of AS has any balls he should put Harburg/Bradford and Oatley/Richards in a room and read them the riot act. Harburg for not protesting but having a cry on national TV and Oatley for doing what ever they fuckin did to make this shitfight appear in peoples lounge rooms.

I betcha he doesn't as that Oatley trough of money that Australia Sailing's snout is in, is way too big to put at risk.  

QUESTION FOR GLENN

Mate do you reakon a Rule 69 Protest by a third-party as outlined above are "time barred" under RRS, noting boats are still out there on the course into tomorrow? Don't confuse this request with one of Protest prospects, but do note there are many crazy fuckers online with funny names with more money than God and may have some New Year save sailing resolution going..

Don't chicken out on me now Glenn.

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wouldn't it be interesting if a 4ksb heard of this as they hit the dock and then protested woxi within her time limit, and used the RC investigation as a fact?

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8 hours ago, random said:

... (lots of ad hominem attack bs due to lack of a sound argument)

Intention has nothing to do with it.

The log shows it was not working.  There is no excuse.  They are either cheats or incompetent.

... (more ad hominem attack bs due to lack of a sound argument)

It sounds to me like you desperately want to believe that WOXI cheated, but can't prove it, so now you're just saying it over and over again hoping that no-one will notice the lack of proof.  In your statement above you admit that they might not have been cheating, but simply incompetent.  

But wait, didn't you say that they are "proven" to have cheated?  Which one is it?  Do try to keep up with your own statements, will you.  

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 Could not still any yacht which is about to finish log a protest? Maybe the second line honours boat should convince someone......;-)

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1 minute ago, ateam said:

 Could not still any yacht which is about to finish log a protest? Maybe the second line honours boat should convince someone......;-)

I'm sorry, but the best thing would be to bury this with a shovel and then bury the shovel.  

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17 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I'm sorry, but the best thing would be to bury this with a shovel and then bury the shovel.  

Spoken from someone from the US where sailing is already dead in the water and who doesn't give two fucks about Australian sailing and any ramifications this fuckup may have world wide. Chime out if your bored...or to to be blunt.. fuck off.

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1 minute ago, jack_sparrow said:

Spoken from someone from the US where sailing is already dead in the water and who doesn't give two fucks about Australian sailing and any ramifications this fuckup may have world wide. Chime out if your bored...or to to be blunt.. fuck off.

Thank you and Happy Holidays.  

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Bury it? 

#1 - the safety issue - AIS is primarily to manage racing yachts in the shipping lanes. If the RC/ISAF allows this to be buried, AND when a boat gets hit in the shipping lanes, who has the liability when its clear the RCs state a requirement (and get regualtory approval for the race) and failed to enforce it. The RC should enforce as a clear Safety Regulation issue. If they can't protest since someone told them about the safety issue, then they can at least dissallow WOXIs entry in next years race!

#2 - Tactitical issue - everyone has a tracker and AIS - if WOXI didn't transmit either, is it considered okay? Wonder what would have happend if BJ had told the race committee of it in the middle of the race during a position report? Is the RC then allowed to protest? Or does the RC have to monitor and check every safety operation on every boat?

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7 minutes ago, DarkHorse said:

Bury it? 

#1 - the safety issue - AIS is primarily to manage racing yachts in the shipping lanes. If the RC/ISAF allows this to be buried, AND when a boat gets hit in the shipping lanes, who has the liability when its clear the RCs state a requirement (and get regualtory approval for the race) and failed to enforce it. The RC should enforce as a clear Safety Regulation issue. If they can't protest since someone told them about the safety issue, then they can at least dissallow WOXIs entry in next years race!

#2 - Tactitical issue - everyone has a tracker and AIS - if WOXI didn't transmit either, is it considered okay? Wonder what would have happend if BJ had told the race committee of it in the middle of the race during a position report? Is the RC then allowed to protest? Or does the RC have to monitor and check every safety operation on every boat?

So what do you propose?  The PC has made a decision.  This race is special and my comment was that everyone, especially us armchair racers, should drop it and let the race maintain some dignity.  Do I agree with the decision, of course not, every rule matters.  The fact that the IJ acted like a bunch of eunuchs, so what.  WOXI would have won with it turned on and their arrogance is off the charts, but it is time to move on.  

PS. BJ are just as bad as WOXI.  

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This needs to be answered not just for WOXI, but going forward will/can AIS be required since there is no way to 'prove' they turned it off or they just have faulty gear on board (probably can't protest on negligent maintenance, but lawyers can sure jump on it if there is a death).

I have no dog in the fight, and have no way of knowing the facts - but it should be investigated, else AIS is dead as a 'requirement' going forward.

 

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8 hours ago, Stanno said:

Have we had anyone from the race management team explain why no one other than Sailing Anarchy forum members and the odd retired Qantas Engineer on the lower north shore of Sydney seemed to watch the AIS tracks throughout the race?  After making their use mandatory in the SI's???

Its just so  ... odd. And frustrating.

Its not that odd. It happens all of the time. Its called the influence of money and power. No one in the jury, race committee or club, wants to stand up to the vested interests who just want this to go away. They are all (individually) thinking about their futures. Basically shows that "sailing" in the Corinthian sense is fucked.

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If W.O's AIS was in fact turned off, RC must have known it. They have the power to penalize W.O.. Black Jack should have filed a protest, but I'm sympathetic to anyone protesting this kind of thing from a sour grapes perspective. I think RCs should enforce it as they do scheduled radio check ins and safety equipment post and pre-race inspections. AIS can be checked by anyone with marinetraffic.com website.
 
I would recommend the following be added to next year's S.I's."RC should make it clear it is either (a) obligation of competitors to file formal protest of boats they allege didn't broadcast AIS, or (b) RC reserves the right to penalize boats it determined did not broadcast AIS and state, if possible, penalty for not broadcasting. [which I believe would act as a deterrent.]
 

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From Jack's post above,

"Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the RaceCommittee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its owninvestigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest."

 

Curious about # 3

Why does the race committee require AIS if they aren't tracking the boats anyway?

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49 minutes ago, ateam said:

 Could not still any yacht which is about to finish log a protest? Maybe the second line honours boat should convince someone......;-)

I suspect that as soon as WOXI crossed the line, the requirement to transmit ended and that's when the time-limit started for filing a protest.

In other words, once they finished they were no longer infringing, and since you have to inform "immediately" and file within a certain time of the infringement... that window is closed.

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30 minutes ago, doggone said:

I would recommend the following be added to next year's S.I's."RC should make it clear it is either (a) obligation of competitors to file formal protest of boats they allege didn't broadcast AIS, or (b) RC reserves the right to penalize boats it determined did not broadcast AIS and state, if possible, penalty for not broadcasting. [which I believe would act as a deterrent.]

Mate that is great but you are missing the woods for the trees. The sport is a self policing one. It is not failing because of rules. It is failing because as each year goes by no one gives a fuck about the rules. That example is being set from the top end down. No better example has been set is with this race and for two years in a row by one team. That is a fact.

How long do we let this shit continue no matter the boat race or country.is up to us. No one else is going to stan. up

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If Oats would have RAF'd after learning of their mistake, that would have been sportsmanship defined.  The kind of act that I would remember to my grave.  I sure as shit won't remember they had LH in '18 in two years.  

Choose your legacy and they did not choose wisely.  

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mate that is great but you are missing the woods for the trees. The sport is a self policing one. It is not failing because of rules. It is failing because as each year goes by no one gives a fuck about the rules. That example is being set from the top end down. No better example has been set is with this race and for two years in a row the one team. That is a fact.

I’d suggest that “traditionally, at the Corinthian level, the sport is self policing.”

Where the sport has gone wrong is in not having a more active police force for all pro racing, like in match racing and TP 52’s.

to try and think it possible to maintain the “Corinthian spirit” with a bunch of paid whores pulling ropes for rich owners” is like thinking the hooker is really a virgin.

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25 minutes ago, See Level said:

From Jack's post above,

"Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the RaceCommittee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its owninvestigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest."

 

Curious about # 3

Why does the race committee require AIS if they aren't tracking the boats anyway?

It is required for many reasons, predominantly safety under both race rules as well as overarching considerations for preventing or minimising life threatening incidents at sea. Any tactical advantage attached to that piece of equipment is immaterial. As for RC checking compliance, this is a self policing sport, not a game of football. Those abusing that self policing concept are fucking the sport for everybody.

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6 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

If Oats would have RAF'd after learning of their mistake, that would have been sportsmanship defined.  The kind of act that I would remember to my grave.  I sure as shit won't remember they had LH in '18 in two years.  

Choose your legacy and they did not choose wisely.  

your back..and on the money

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8 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

I’d suggest that “traditionally, at the Corinthian level, the sport is self policing.”

Where the sport has gone wrong is in not having a more active police force for all pro racing, like in match racing and TP 52’s.

to try and think it possible to maintain the “Corinthian spirit” with a bunch of paid whores pulling ropes for rich owners” is like thinking the hooker is really a virgin.

Fuck this like pulling teeth. The concept in your mind is abuse of the rules is somehow restricted to pro sailors is nonsense. i'm a semi retired pro and I can assure you you are way off mark . You don't understand the sport is dieing from the bottom up. Junior sailors are copying their heros, some which are scumbags at all levels who are abusing a self policing sport, and one that can only ever be a self policing sport. It is not tennis. The concept of self policing and respect for other competitors is fast getting lost. Some pricks in this race have raised the flag about its final departure and laughing at our expense. They just happen to be the touchstone. Unless that concept is recovered and recovered quickly this sport is fucked.  

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7 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Fuck this like pulling teeth. The concept in your mind is abuse of the rules is somehow restricted to pro sailors is nonsense. i'm a semi retired pro and I can assure you you are way off mark . You don't understand the sport is dieing from the bottom up. Junior sailors are copying their heros, some which are scumbags at all levels who are abusing a self policing sport, and one that can only ever be a self policing sport. It is not tennis. The concept of self policing and respect for other competitors is fast getting lost. Some pricks in this race have raised the flag about its final departure and laughing at our expense. They just happen to be the touchstone. Unless that concept is recovered and recovered quickly this sport is fucked.  

Actually we agree. A big part of the problem with juniors is they have paid coaches, who teach them to cheat, because they need their kids to win so they get a bigger payday elsewhere.  And they both look at this situation and think “yeah, I can pull that shit off too”.

The horse is really out of the barn. Not sure we are ever going to see a real sense of honor and integrity be at the forefront of the sport any more. Look at the continual messes of the AC and Volvo. 

The good old days really were the good old days. Now, it’s just every whore for themselves.

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1 hour ago, Cal20sailor said:

So what do you propose?  The PC has made a decision.

That the protest was invalid.

WTF is it when posters like you refuse to admit that they cheated and got away with it?

I call it social media whitewashing.  This incident will not be forgotten nor should it.  It should and will live on as an example to all sailors of what we do not want in the sport.

 

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4 minutes ago, random said:

That the protest was invalid.

WTF is it when posters like you refuse to admit that they cheated and got away with it?

I call it social media whitewashing.  This incident will not be forgotten nor should it.  It should and will live on as an example to all sailors of what we do not want in the sport.

 

WTF is it when posters like you cannot read!  They did cheat (IMHO) and should have been chucked. 

I call it senility.  

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3 hours ago, shanghaisailor said:

There will always be those who either don't play by, or don't understand, the rules.

If, and it is an  "IF", WOXI was not transmitting AND they knew it then Basic Principles in the RRS states they should retire. But it is an IF! No accusations.

If, and this time I don't think it is an IF, Blackjack thought WOXI wasn't transmitting then they should have protested.

We are a self policing sport and when I run rules seminars I always make two points right at the beginning.

1. You should use the rules to the absolute limit -and that includes all relevant rules, the RRS, the SI's any class rules or national prescriptions etc (that's what they are there for) BUT you can only do that if you know the rules or you may overstep the mark. I would expect anyone on the race course to have rules knowledge. Could you imagine playing chess if you didn't know how to move the knight?

2. If you think someone has overstepped that mark then you SHOULD protest otherwise the self policing concept falls apart. At the very least if their infraction is through ignorance they will know the next time. 

The protest procedure has two functions in my view, firstly to penalise the deliberate rule breakers and secondly to educate those sailors who don't know the rules sufficiently.

The other thing that needs to happen is for the media, social media and anti social media to change their mindset and stop calling a protestor the bad boy. Talk of a race win through a protest being "hollow" is WRONG. However a race win through not following the rules most certainly is a hollow victory. Again - no accusations.

As Dark Horse stated "You don't win a race etc etc" - Elvstrom would be turning  in his grave.

SS

 

Pretty strong justification for any boat still under the time limit to file

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13 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

The horse is really out of the barn. Not sure we are ever going to see a real sense of honor and integrity be at the forefront of the sport any more. Look at the continual messes of the AC and Volvo

The good old days really were the good old days. Now, it’s just every whore for themselves

The horse may be out of the barn but it is still in the paddock. It is time to to start shooting the rogue horses before they get over the fence. The AC I have little interest in and only know a few first hand. I don't know what instances you refer to in the VOR, but i can assure you it contains for the most part people with the highest integrity in this sport. 

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

WARNING

I’m sleep deprived and fucked. Following a lousy day race on line has killed me more than a VG or god forbid a real RTW one.

If you have some smart fuck reply without some degree of intelligence (not much required) to this post be warned. I will send @mad and my ex mother in law around to your place to tear your bloody arms off. The  latter is good at it. I can only now type using my nose and in upper case using my dick.

As every good story needs a Prelude, this is mine.

PRELUDE

I have no one to thank. I do apologise however to those who are thinking “why hasn’t the Sparrow given me a Likey today. I ran out because it seems there is some limit here on SA after Randumb gave me 567 dislikes in 30 minutes and the ED noticed something was amiss.

So to those two posts above which has sent my nose going mad. Chopper a useless fool at best and Glenn who has forgotten more about RRS than most here know except @shanghaisailor,  graciously replies to the fool? What is that I say to myself, Glenn stops there like a pregnant lady caught crossing the street and no more?

THE STORY

Glenn you lazy sod there is one mechanism available, much as I think it is an abhorrent rule in its current form.

In this case we have here a Protest by the RC that has been determined by the IJ to be invalid so normally end of story.

However if any competitor or non-competitors alike were of the view the PC/IJ were not provided with a true statement of fact by the Protester, in this case the RC, and used by and as published by the PC/IJ to principally support their decision to deem the Protest invalid, then that decision is potentially open to being overruled under Rule 69 on the basis the facts presented by the Protester, in this case by a RC and having far wider implications than a sole protester, so bringing the sport into disrepute under Rule 69.

It may sound like a long bow to draw but if any aspect of those facts presented by the RC to the PC/IJ are shown to be factually incorrect and they are instrumental to the decision made by the PC/IJ, then it is game on. To avoid any misunderstanding and state the obvious this prospect of a Rule 69 Protest by a third party has nothing to do with WOXI infringing or not. It is directed solely at the RC and the facts they presented to the PC/IJ. The aguement is because of this the PC/IJ had no option but to rule the RC's own Protest invalid, thus prventing the nature of the Protest being properly examined and determined. 

I would not mention this aspect unless I believed it applied here and in particular these statements of fact as  presented by the RC and read in conjunction. They are:

Facts Found: Facts on Validity

1. Black Jack and Wild Oats Xl both competed in the Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race 2018 (the Race).

2. Shortly after finishing, the owner of Black Jack submitted a report to the Race Committee alleging that Wild Oats Xl's AIS "had not transmitted throughout" the Race.

3. Prior to the report, the Race Committee had "no knowledge of an issue" with Wild Oats Xl's AIS.

4. As a result of receiving the report, the Race Committee conducted an investigation into AIS tracking records in respect of Wild Oats Xl. The Race Committee obtained evidence from its own investigation that Wild Oats Xl may have breached Sl 11.4 and therefore submitted the protest.

Diagram: Not Applicable.

http://www.rolexsydneyhobart.com/media/3438889/ccf29122018.pdf

Put simply #3 (my bold emphasis) is horseshit unless the RC were hiding under a rock while the RO's own media people were launching off the boat interviews into the Interweb and national TV stations were all falling over them selves to keep up with live crosses. This is where BJ's complaint came to light, not some report lodged with the RC hours later.

Now Glen I have a very big question of you. But before asking it I note you and I have very similar views and we both clearly don’t have a dog in the fight as indicated by our respective posts below, albeit in your case you were disadvantaged by not having full information to hand making yours thinking a competitor protest was afoot, due to time zone delay in the USA  3rd world.

 

QUESTION FOR GLENN

Mate do you reakon a Rule 69 Protest by a third-party as outlined above are "time barred" under RRS, noting boats are still out there on the course into tomorrow? Don't confuse this request with one of Protest prospects, but do note there are many crazy fuckers online with funny names with more money than God and may have some New Year save sailing resolution going..

Don't chicken out on me now Glenn.

How did I get dragged into this one? :lol:

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In my opinion round gotland is a very well managed offshore race....and there the rc checks ais signals...and does not let u start if u do not transmit....

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6 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

I have just seen some Press Releases distributed earlier today post ruling by the WOXI camp to assist the media, both sailing and mainstream write stuff. It is like one is reading Hitlers PR after conquering Poland.

And there is work going on here too.  Controlling the message on social media including forums.

Sticks our like dogballs.

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3 minutes ago, mad said:

How did I get dragged into this one? :lol:

I just want to know what you're doing with his ex-MIL.  

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1 minute ago, random said:

And there is work going on here too.  Controlling the message on social media including forums.

Sticks our like dogballs.

I sure hope you're not driving.  

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1 minute ago, random said:

And there is work going on here too.  Controlling the message on social media including forums.

Sticks our like dogballs.

Really???!!!!

Fucking awesome, Random has a conspiracy theory running!:P

Fuck I love this place. :lol:

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2 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

 

 

WARNING

I’m sleep deprived and fucked. Following a lousy day race on line has killed me more than a VG or god forbid a real RTW one.

If you have some smart fuck reply without some degree of intelligence (not much required) to this post be warned. I will send @mad and my ex mother in law around to your place to tear your bloody arms off. The  latter is good at it. I can only now type using my nose and in upper case using my dick.

As every good story needs a Prelude, this is mine.

PRELUDE

I have no one to thank. I do apologise however to those who are thinking “why hasn’t the Sparrow given me a Likey today. I ran out because it seems there is some limit here on SA after Randumb gave me 567 dislikes in 30 minutes and the ED noticed something was amiss.


@shanghaisailor

 

 

For the record the downvotes were the other way around.  After three VOR sycophants downvoted me hundreds in one evening, the ed changed the limit from 200 a day to 20. . 

Stop complaining about WOXI when you lie yourself.

 

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12 minutes ago, mad said:

Really???!!!!

Fucking awesome, Random has a conspiracy theory running!:P

Fuck I love this place. :lol:

Check out their origin and posting record.

That's what those socks do.  Do you seriously believe that WO spend money on producing guides for the media and not guiding social media?  They have brands to protect.  But hang on, that shit only happens to hijack an entire election, would never happen anywhere else right?  Not on forums you use!

Better check what century you are in.

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27 minutes ago, random said:

 

For the record the downvotes were the other way around.  After three VOR sycophants downvoted me hundreds in one evening, the ed changed the limit from 200 a day to 20. . 

Stop complaining about WOXI when you lie yourself.

 

And there is another DV for you cup cake. 

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42 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I just want to know what you're doing with his ex-MIL.  

It’s long story........started something like this. 

Quote

We had two bags of grass, seventy-five pellets of mescaline, five sheets of high powered blotter acid, a salt shaker half full of cocaine, and a whole galaxy of multi-colored uppers, downers, screamers, laughers... and also a quart of tequila, a quart of rum, a case of Budweiser, a pint of raw ether and two dozen amyls.
Not that we needed all that for the trip, but once you get locked into a serious drug collection, the tendency is to push it as far as you can.

 

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4 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

And there is another DV for you cup cake. 

Can you drop by the bar in the other S2H thread?  There’s fresh meat going on the bbq. 

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1 minute ago, mad said:

It’s long story........started something like this. 

My nephew is Hunter, outstanding.  

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I love this place but I'm the only one that signs up as an armchairadmiral !!! Most of you should  borrow it and just add a number.   The way some of you portray this as cheating is rubbish. The race outcome wasn't decided by an AIS being on or off....Protests are not generally about cheating but rule infringements. Usually these aren't deliberate but then you'd have to go sailing to know that so BJ 's decision not to protest is  OK. Clearly he didn't think it was cheating and neither did any other competitor because no one protested. Methinks this is more about MR and his high / off handed comments. That's not grounds for a backdoor protest. Seems the guy could go a PR lesson or two but that's it. And WO should have had its AIS on.

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1 hour ago, random said:

And there is work going on here too.  Controlling the message on social media including forums.

Sticks our like dogballs.

Well get on with it and call out the sock puppets.

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2 minutes ago, armchairadmiral said:

The race outcome wasn't decided by an AIS being on or off....Protests are not generally about cheating but rule infringements..

Yes everyone with a double digit IQ knows that the RC's protest was deemed invalid (that the RC knew perfectly well when they lodged it).....the next bit by extension saying cheating is not a rule infringement may require more explanation on your behalf.  

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2 minutes ago, TPG said:

Well get on with it and call out the sock puppets.

Are you kidding?   I've already alerted my 89yo mother and she assures me her bridge club will no longer have anything to do with the S2H.  So, there's 3.5 votes in your favor.  

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2 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yes everyone with a double digit IQ knows that the RC's protest was deemed invalid (that the RC knew perfectly well when they lodged it).....the next bit by extension saying cheating is not a rule infringement may require more explanation on your behalf.  

What about those of us with three digits?  Do we not know, I thought I did and now you're telling me I don't count.  Not nice.  

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12 hours ago, dash34 said:

There hasn't been a hearing on WOXI's lack of AIS transmissions, so saying cheating has been proven is incorrect.  In order to prove it, facts have to be found by a protest committee.

Did all the other boats whose AIS didn't transmit cheat too?  Why aren't you calling them out?  Seems hypocritical to me; though we would like to think that we can hold WOXI to a higher standard given the profile of their program, they still put their foulies on the same way the rest of us do, so unintentional shit can happen to them the same as the other boats who didn't transmit.  

They were cheating if they knew they had to transmit AIS and intentionally did not do so.  If you believe that to be the case, provide some evidence.

 

 

That is what I thought.  All we know for sure is the bias of the poster.  It's hard (but not impossible) to imagine a viable explanation that exonerates WOXI but because the protest was never tested we will not know any facts found.  WOXI will be condemned with certainty in the online Court of Sailing Anarchy even though the whole (true?) story is unknown and her crew also never having a chance at vindication in a Protest Hearing.

I was struck by the irony of how some of those here could be so certain of intentional treachery, who indignantly held up the RRS and even named the rules transgressed suddenly, in the same breath, in the middle of a sentence were not longer willing to acknowledge the Rules when they disagreed with their narrative.

I feel a bit bad for WOXI.  They sailed a tough race and demonstrated again how great an all rounder that old boat is.  But for this Line Honours win they will live under a cloud because the issue was not resolved.  

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Honestly!! What a crock of shit. You “it was such bad sportsmanship” wankers need to let go of your mummy’s hand one day. 

Like most other sports I don’t give a fig who wins I just like to see good competition and high level skills on display. 

Since when has long distance (especially at night)  racing been about knowing what your competitors are doing or where they are going?

To be up in arms and getting your knickers in a knot as to whether or not a non- tracker  piece of safety-at-sea equipment (the boats have compulsory trackers fitted for the purposes of entertaining the public and possibly safety) seems to me to be a total waste of effort.

Mind you, it’s been a great controversy which like all controversies is great publicity. Eg 2013 AC, last year’s S2H and to be morbidly frank ‘79 fastnet and 98 s2h were all things that brought huge attention from a wider audience than would normally not give two hoots about boating. Without the drama the historical context and the enormity of the event is subdued for most  people.

But anyways, back to your (collective) apparent MR/WOXI hating, one sails according to what one thinks is the quickest way to get there. It’s not a video/ computer game. It’s boats getting to the finish as quick as possible and making decisions based on guessing/ working out the conditions. If they’d gone out the back door you’d be heaping shit on them for that, no doubt.  

Apparently they (WOXI) took a risk of taking a slightly different route to the east (according to the trackers that all could see) which may or may not have given them an advantage.

The other boats had just as much chance to do that or whatever else without following someone else but by making their own decisions. I’m sure up til recently sailors weren’t choosing their routes according to other boats routes. 

What next? Obliged to tell the fleet what sails you’ve hoisted? Or telling them what Mum has served for dinner? 

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