Mid

2018 Rolex Sydney Hobart Yacht Race: The Race Committee has lodged a protest against Wild Oats XI

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7 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

Maybe it did, any publicity is good publicity...

Yep great publicity. I'm off to the bottle shop tomorrow to buy a case of their Wild Oats CheatinChardonay. The advert said "take a sip and you will forget AIS".

Do you think that was a misprint and it should be just AA??

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5 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yep great publicity. I'm off to the bottle shop tomorrow to buy a case of their Wild Oats CheatinChardonay. The advert said "take a sip and you will forget AIS".

Do you think that was a misprint and it should be just AA??

Maybe there’s going to be case offer when they win 12, one from each year? 

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3 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yep great publicity. I'm off to the bottle shop tomorrow to buy a case of their Wild Oats CheatinChardonay. The advert said "take a sip and you will forget AIS".

Do you think that was a misprint and it should be just AA??

Somebody ought to come up with a knock off brand “Mild Goats Piss Wine”

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9 minutes ago, bayboy said:

Rothmans docked 10% for flying advertising

Good reference being same RC didn't see a thing, but was told third hand and came out all guns blazing and Lawrie was fucked before he even hit the dock. That said 25 years or so ago RRS have changed re protests.

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1 minute ago, mad said:

Maybe theirs going to be case offer when they win 12, one from each year? 

You should work for their marketing department Mad, genius for them.

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11 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Yep great publicity. I'm off to the bottle shop tomorrow to buy a case of their Wild Oats CheatinChardonay. The advert said "take a sip and you will forget AIS".

Do you think that was a misprint and it should be just AA??

The race story moved from the back pages to front pages across the world.

The general punter has no idea what an AIS is, and doesn’t care.

And besides, I don’t know any sailors who would buy WO Chardonnay before this race, do you?

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2 hours ago, Cap't Billy said:

That is what I thought.  All we know for sure is the bias of the poster.  It's hard (but not impossible) to imagine a viable explanation that exonerates WOXI but because the protest was never tested we will not know any facts found.  WOXI will be condemned with certainty in the online Court of Sailing Anarchy even though the whole (true?) story is unknown and her crew also never having a chance at vindication in a Protest Hearing.

I was struck by the irony of how some of those here could be so certain of intentional treachery, who indignantly held up the RRS and even named the rules transgressed suddenly, in the same breath, in the middle of a sentence were not longer willing to acknowledge the Rules when they disagreed with their narrative.

I feel a bit bad for WOXI.  They sailed a tough race and demonstrated again how great an all rounder that old boat is.  But for this Line Honours win they will live under a cloud because the issue was not resolved.  

I think we'll find out in the end what the real story is.  I bet most or all of the WOXI crew know what really happened and don't like the idea of having to avoid answering "the question" every time they walk into the bar from now on.  We just have to be a bit patient and not jump to conclusions.  It has occurred to a few people that the lack of AIS transmissions coincides with the main being up on the boat.  The optics of this are pretty bad but it is too early to rule out an inadvertent error or technical failure.  Given that it is apparently normal practice within the rules to shut off AIS transmit while racing in other races, they might also have simply followed normal practice and forgotten that S2H is different.

The rain has finally stopped here in the PNW, and my sock drawer is fully arranged, so it is time to put the mouse down and go out and enjoy some fresh air!

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4 minutes ago, mad said:

Maybe there’s going to be case offer when they win 12, one from each year? 

I was actually very partial a trillion years ago to Rosemount wines that Bob kicked off, then sold did very very well and his boat program, let's buy an island for the idiot son etc program went up a notch or two.

The Wild Oats label he started post that unfortunately is absolute cats piss. I think their market was China though.

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3 hours ago, random said:

And there is work going on here too.  Controlling the message on social media including forums.

Sticks our like dogballs.

To Hamilton Island Yacht Club.

Attention Mr Sandy Oatley.

Dear Sandy, it has been brought to my Attention that your are paying people on sailing forums to protect your brand- kind of shills for big Shiraz. I have been a WO fanboy for many years and have been defending your boat and Mark for all that time. I have the deepest respect for Mark Richards- I mean 9 wins in the S2H AND 4 world surfing titles is a unique achievement and MR is a living treasure. I am wondering if I could be paid for all my hard work as well? I don’t want money, just some free accomodation on the island, free sausage rolls from the HI bakery, one of those smart looking red WOXI caps and a dinner for to with Mark. Hope to hear from you soon, lots of love,

LB15.

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4 minutes ago, olaf hart said:

And besides, I don’t know any sailors who would buy WO Chardonnay before this race, do you?

I think it is repackaged as anti freeze for common rail diesels in the US, but I'm not sure about that.

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13 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Good reference being same RC didn't see a thing, but was told third hand and came out all guns blazing and Lawrie was fucked before he even hit the dock. That said 25 years or so ago RRS have changed re protests.

And back then it gained the race a huge amount of publicity. 

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5 minutes ago, dash34 said:

I think we'll find out in the end what the real story is.  I bet most or all of the WOXI crew know what really happened and don't like the idea of having to avoid answering "the question" every time they walk into the bar from now on.  We just have to be a bit patient and not jump to conclusions.  It has occurred to a few people that the lack of AIS transmissions coincides with the main being up on the boat.  The optics of this are pretty bad but it is too early to rule out an inadvertent error or technical failure.  Given that it is apparently normal practice within the rules to shut off AIS transmit while racing in other races, they might also have simply followed normal practice and forgotten that S2H is different.

The rain has finally stopped here in the PNW, and my sock drawer is fully arranged, so it is time to put the mouse down and go out and enjoy some fresh air!

Post 797:

Quote

 

Just seen this facebook post from one of the crew on wild oats. 

Saddened by the fact a few of my old mates would have thought we would use our AIS system onboard to our advantage by turning it off during the great race.
The fact is the system got fried when our onboard cameraman went live at the start, we had no idea at all during the race till we finished .
The Wild Oats team is one of the best loyalist teams I have sailed with in my whole sailing career .

 

Assuming the above is true, would that change your outlook on this situation?

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7 minutes ago, Ozmex said:

Those bloody TV cameras fried Infrotracks ais transmission as well

It’s just a Random conspiracy theory. 

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Absolutely nothing will change the mind of most posters on an internet forum.  They have an opinion which they repeat over and over in the mistaken believe other forum readers will eventually come around to their point of view.  They even argue with themselves through sock puppets to try and get a point across.  This happens even when they are presented with factual evidence that they are wrong.  If you want to see more of this strange behavior head up the corridor to PA, Random loves it.

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20 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

To Hamilton Island Yacht Club.

Attention Mr Sandy Oatley.

Dear Sandy, it has been brought to my Attention that your are paying people on sailing forums to protect your brand- kind of shills for big Shiraz...

That was very polite of you LB.

I would have said 'Dear Cunt'. Though that may have detracted from the thrust of your request to be recognised as a Hamilton Island ambassador.

Hint. Be quick to get to the trough, I understand there is quite a line up.

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14 minutes ago, DFL1010 said:

Post 797:

Assuming the above is true, would that change your outlook on this situation?

Even Trumps team produce more convincing spin than that. 

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1 minute ago, mad said:

Even Trumps team produce more convincing spin than that. 

Not sure I follow you

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25 minutes ago, dash34 said:

I think we'll find out in the end what the real story is.  I bet most or all of the WOXI crew know what really happened and don't like the idea of having to avoid answering "the question" every time they walk into the bar from now on.

Mate..correction. They are not "crew". They are employees, some have already collected 3 gold watches. Bob's chair has already been modified to accommodate the big fella as a throne in waiting.

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Hmmm. The notion that the cameraman's transmission fried the AIS transmitter doesn't hold much water. 

Fry the AIS receiver maybe, but kill the transmitter and leave the receiver working takes some remarkable physics. Nor does the excuse match the point where it is apparent the AIS went off. And last of all, it doesn't match the AIS coming live again. 

Personally I'm quite happy to believe there was a fuck up. MR's statement about it not being mandatory is just as likely a reflex response to a blindsiding question about it not working as evidence of premeditated action. 

Most of this little story isn't about WOXI, it is about the nature of the culture, the players, and how the failure has been handled. No party comes out well. 

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27 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

I was actually very partial a trillion years ago to Rosemount wines that Bob kicked off, then sold did very very well and his boat program, let's buy an island for the idiot son etc program went up a notch or two.

The Wild Oats label he started post that unfortunately is absolute cats piss. I think their market was China though.

Rosemount Roxburgh Chardonnay from the Hunter Valley.  Lovely golden colour. It was a genuine chardonnay not like 90% of the others that where around at the same time.  Drank magnificently after two years of aging.

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Comeon this is a big fairytale!

We’re not talking about an inshore Optimist regatta and the sailors and crews are not dumb idiots never put at step on a boat before.

I participated in a few of unfamous ocean regattas and our AIS was always checked on the gate entering the start field. We got approval via radio. BTW this happenend as well when I participated in Rolex Fastnet Race. They had 3 gates to enter the starting field.

a) I wonder how WOXI could enter the race ?

b) I wonder that nobody recognise this from race controle. Even when WOXI ran down Derwent river.

c) since it is part of sailing instructions that AIS must be active there seems to me no space for interpretation. I wonder that there are any discussions.

WOXI was still the fastest boat in 2018 but not by following the rules. If anybody is convinced that WOXI is a fair winner than this nothing else than giving a shit about rules. Keep in mind that all others follow the rules.

I have the impression that race committee  won’t  hurt WOXI after the history of last year. Others in this forum still mentioned favouritism. Bad, worse, worst decision! Now this world famous regatta has a flavour of untrustworthy. Applause, applause to the race committee  what an outstanding job!

Edited by braunle
Typo

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13 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Absolutely nothing will change the mind of most posters on an internet forum.  They have an opinion which they repeat over and over in the mistaken believe other forum readers will eventually come around to their point of view.  They even argue with themselves through sock puppets to try and get a point across.  This happens even when they are presented with factual evidence that they are wrong.  If you want to see more of this strange behavior head up the corridor to PA, Random loves it.

It didn't take long for a cockwarbeller to appear.

Now son other than casting a quite slanderous spray over those in this room, do you actually have anything meaningfully to contribute?

Sort of treat it as a price of admission to a Beyonce concert you don't want to be at, but you then tell people you were there. No contribution is not good.

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9 minutes ago, jack_sparrow said:

Mate..correction. They are not "crew". They are employees, some have already collected 3 gold watches. Bob's chair has already been modified to accommodate the big fella as a throne in waiting.

Listen to Nic's interview of Lump o' Lard after the race.  He says something like "I don't do anything.  I just sit there."

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So, WOXI crew does admit it broke at the start - and simple check of marinetraffics or vessel finder apps would have shown they weren't 

The real question - is not transmitting a viable safety transgression? Did they check they were receiging AIS so their local MOB AIS devices worked? (I bet they did) and should the RC be responsible for managing the safety regs - now that we know they mis reported at the end of the race that everything worked, should that be enough to reopen the RC protest?

 

 

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4 minutes ago, nimbus said:

Drank magnificently after two years of aging.

How in the fuck do you keep alcohol sitting there for two years without knocking the top off? Do you have some sort of cage with multiple locks and keys, like one you send to a relative in Latvia?

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10 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Hmmm. The notion that the cameraman's transmission fried the AIS transmitter doesn't hold much water. 

Fry the AIS receiver maybe, but kill the transmitter and leave the receiver working takes some remarkable physics. Nor does the excuse match the point where it is apparent the AIS went off. And last of all, it doesn't match the AIS coming live again. 

Personally I'm quite happy to believe there was a fuck up. MR's statement about it not being mandatory is just as likely a reflex response to a blindsiding question about it not working as evidence of premeditated action. 

Most of this little story isn't about WOXI, it is about the nature of the culture, the players, and how the failure has been handled. No party comes out well. 

Lets add in, if not start with World Sailing and Australia Sailing. AIS is either a required safety feature, or it’s not. It should not be subject the gentleman’s agreement of a self policing sport if in fact it is to be a required safety feature.

If the organizing authority is going to require its use, then they should police the use of it, and penalize appropriately for non-compliance. Rail Meat has a good post about his experience in Europe with that very thing.

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Ran out of likes way to early today.Like

Maybe the Army boys on Gun Runner will do the right thing.

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Just because I crawled over some messages like ‘it is normal practice within the rules to shut off AIS transmit while racing’.

1. This is Rolex Sydney to Hobart Regatta. Participants spent weeks to meet the entry criteria. Serious stuff, not fun on the fishing lake next door.

2. The sailing instruction are clear: AIS turned on, transmitting and receiving during the whole race.

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So, a guy/family spends so much money on the sport of sailing that mere mortals are afraid to hold them accountable? Hmmm, how Banana Republic! 

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Ever considered this discussion is lost on the Woxi's of this world? They simply will not understand what the fuss is about

After all surely everyone intelligent knows that the seriously wealthy of this world are entitled to a set of special ethics and rules of behavior which are quite different from those which apply to ordinary mortals. I expect this has been quietly explained to those who dismissed the "protest that never was", hence the ruling which the qualified elite will have expected, but which, understandably, leaves mere ordinary mortals a little puzzled.

Put simply, if I had sailed as Woxi did it would have been right for me to retire.

For the skipper of Woxi it was right not to retire.

I am sure this would all be very clear to, say, the likes of the current President of France, for example. It seems he understands this rather better than his subjects though!

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2 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

If the organizing authority is going to require its use, then they should police the use of it, and penalize appropriately for non-compliance.

This is where it gets messy. In general it isn't the OA's responsibility to police rules. As has been noted before, in terms of the RRS the sport is self generally policing. Now AIS is a safety add on. IMHO that gets it something of a leave pass on the self policing, in much the same manner as the compulsory Green Cape HF check does, so there is potentially an argument for something similar for AIS. It gets murky when AIS becomes valuable for racing tactics, which it is.

BJ's complaint was that they were disadvantaged because WOXI's safety system was not working properly. Phrased like that it sounds stupid. But therein lies the difficulty. The OA's job is to make sure the race is run safely, and they do have a role in enforcing safety related requirements. If we ignore BJ, and anything related to racing, and only focus on safety the question is perhaps clearer. The OA, should work out a mechanism for checking AIS compliance and work it in, minimally adding it to the list of checks for the Green Cape check. And with the same teeth. However since it can be deliberately disabled for competitive advantage, further checking may be justified. It should not be up to the self policing of the sport to provide the teeth for safety questions. But because the system has competitive implications it gets confused. 

Things were not handled well this time. And the smell will take a while to clear. But I do hope the CYCA can learn for this.

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6 hours ago, DarkHorse said:

This needs to be answered not just for WOXI, but going forward will/can AIS be required since there is no way to 'prove' they turned it off or they just have faulty gear on board (probably can't protest on negligent maintenance, but lawyers can sure jump on it if there is a death).

I have no dog in the fight, and have no way of knowing the facts - but it should be investigated, else AIS is dead as a 'requirement' going forward.

 

And considering that the next race is something of a milestone, to clear this up for next year could the RC (in the Si's) stipulate that on off switch for Tx is illegal?

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32 minutes ago, frant said:

I just had a look at the Racing Rules website to check on definition of “conflict of interest”. Isn’t it slightly ironic that the cover page contains an image of Comanche and WOXI. May be an explanation as to why they are above the rules.

it now appears to me that the Protest Committee may be obliged to open a hearing in light of information that WOXI filed an invalid declaration of compliance. They now appear to have been aware that their AIS was “fried” for the duration but don’t seem to have made a declaration to that effect.

The oats cover up is just digging the hole deeper.

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3 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

This is where it gets messy. In general it isn't the OA's responsibility to police rules. As has been noted before, in terms of the RRS the sport is self generally policing. Now AIS is a safety add on. IMHO that gets it something of a leave pass on the self policing, in much the same manner as the compulsory Green Cape HF check does, so there is potentially an argument for something similar for AIS. It gets murky when AIS becomes valuable for racing tactics, which it is.

BJ's complaint was that they were disadvantaged because WOXI's safety system was not working properly. Phrased like that it sounds stupid. But therein lies the difficulty. The OA's job is to make sure the race is run safely, and they do have a role in enforcing safety related requirements. If we ignore BJ, and anything related to racing, and only focus on safety the question is perhaps clearer. The OA, should work out a mechanism for checking AIS compliance and work it in, minimally adding it to the list of checks for the Green Cape check. And with the same teeth. However since it can be deliberately disabled for competitive advantage, further checking may be justified. It should not be up to the self policing of the sport to provide the teeth for safety questions. But because the system has competitive implications it gets confused. 

Things were not handled well this time. And the smell will take a while to clear. But I do hope the CYCA can learn for this.

I dont think you cam lump AIS checks at Green Cape the same as HF checks.  The Hf is not required to be on for the whole race, only to do the scheds and the Gren Cape call.  The AIS can be switched on at Green Cape and then off again if that was the case.  It is a difficult item to check 24/7 but maybe that will be a task the OA has to take on in the future.

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9 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

This is where it gets messy. In general it isn't the OA's responsibility to police rules. As has been noted before, in terms of the RRS the sport is self generally policing. Now AIS is a safety add on. IMHO that gets it something of a leave pass on the self policing, in much the same manner as the compulsory Green Cape HF check does, so there is potentially an argument for something similar for AIS. It gets murky when AIS becomes valuable for racing tactics, which it is.

BJ's complaint was that they were disadvantaged because WOXI's safety system was not working properly. Phrased like that it sounds stupid. But therein lies the difficulty. The OA's job is to make sure the race is run safely, and they do have a role in enforcing safety related requirements. If we ignore BJ, and anything related to racing, and only focus on safety the question is perhaps clearer. The OA, should work out a mechanism for checking AIS compliance and work it in, minimally adding it to the list of checks for the Green Cape check. And with the same teeth. However since it can be deliberately disabled for competitive advantage, further checking may be justified. It should not be up to the self policing of the sport to provide the teeth for safety questions. But because the system has competitive implications it gets confused. 

Things were not handled well this time. And the smell will take a while to clear. But I do hope the CYCA can learn for this.

Well, ocean regatta sailors use weather routing tools. There are a lot discussions about the usage of those tools due to real saling. But it is saver and sailing is more than reading the weather.

I think it is similar to the usage of AIS.

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2 minutes ago, trt131 said:

I dont think you cam lump AIS checks at Green Cape the same as HF checks. 

The intent is that there should be an onus on the skipper to ensure that the AIS is transmitting properly at the check. By codifying this, we avoid equipment failure - both real and as an excuse for bad behaviour. The check would include a confirmation that the AIS signal was being received. No reception, no pass the check.

As to turning it on and off, well now we are talking about cheating pure and simple.

Given the availability and low price of SOTDMA class B AIS units now, I think there is probably a very good argument for mandating them for the S2H. These can be seen by the satellites, whilst the lower power CSTDMA class B units usually can't. This would improve every aspect of their use. It would make cheating behaviour trivial to monitor. 

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3 hours ago, BooBoo said:

Just seen this facebook post from one of the crew on wild oats. 

Saddened by the fact a few of my old mates would have thought we would use our AIS system onboard to our advantage by turning it off during the great race.
The fact is the system got fried when our onboard cameraman went live at the start, we had no idea at all during the race till we finished .
The Wild Oats team is one of the best loyalist teams I have sailed with in my whole sailing career .

 

So it got "Fried" and they managed to get it working or replaced it just after they docked !!

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5 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

So it got "Fried" and they managed to get it working or replaced it just after they docked !!

Immaculate reception/transmission?  

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11 minutes ago, Francis Vaughan said:

It would make cheating behaviour trivial to monitor. 

The idea of the RRS is that it is self policing.

What went wrong here was that BJ refused to follow the rules and protest.  Seems karma on them that it backfired.

I have to admit that I did not expect the RC to file an invalid protest.  We had the right to expect that they had done their homework.

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So hypothetically, if a boat was not transmitting, other than the guy who flicked an AIS transmit switch off  and the guy who told him to, would anyone else on the boat have HAD to have known they were not transmitting ?

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2 minutes ago, random said:

The idea of the RRS is that it is self policing.

What went wrong here was that BJ refused to follow the rules and protest.  Seems karma on them that it backfired.

I have to admit that I did not expect the RC to file an invalid protest.  We had the right to expect that they had done their homework.

Yup, there's a lot of eggs on a lot of faces.  Nobody involved should walk away feeling good about anything.  

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1 hour ago, DFL1010 said:

Post 797:

Assuming the above is true, would that change your outlook on this situation?

If true, then the next question is - did they know about the failure before or after they filed their finishing report, and if before, was it included in the finishing report?  If they knew about it before filing the report and didn't report it, they cheated.  If they found out after filing the report, then they still broke the rule, but didn't "cheat", which implies a dishonest act.  

I hope there are some folks in Hobart getting WOXI crew good and drunk so we can get to the truth here!

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3 minutes ago, random said:

We had the right to expect that they had done their homework.

You have no rights at all in this.

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1 minute ago, NeedAClew said:

So hypothetically, if a boat was not transmitting, other than the guy who flicked an AIS transmit switch off  and the guy who told him to, would anyone else on the boat have HAD to have known they were not transmitting ?

Hypothetically, why would that matter other than a few of your crew mates fucked it up for everyone?  So much for being a team.  

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3 hours ago, BooBoo said:

Just seen this facebook post from one of the crew on wild oats. 

Saddened by the fact a few of my old mates would have thought we would use our AIS system onboard to our advantage by turning it off during the great race.
The fact is the system got fried when our onboard cameraman went live at the start, we had no idea at all during the race till we finished .
The Wild Oats team is one of the best loyalist teams I have sailed with in my whole sailing career .

 

System got fried... WTF... How come it came back to life after arriving in Hobart? How possible is it that it was half of the AIS (Transmitter only) was fried, but assumable the rest of the electronics survived?

Utter BS, no doubt concocted by Trump's spin doctors!

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1 hour ago, Bill E Goat said:

Works fine now

image.png.80f3ebbaf228326b736cd7b5186fb1a6.png

 

I logged in to Marinetraffic yesterday ( 29/12 ). It showed WO perfectly clearly at the dock in Hobart. The transmission was so accurate that it showed a track of WO moving around with the tide.

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

Non sailing media will have already forgotten this AIS issue by the time we hit 2019. In sailing magazines there will be an article or two about it and of course and editors rant on the AIS subject.  

Then this whole AIS thing will just blow over and never be brought up again.

Except on SA where this thread will keep going for ages. Then it will quieten down before idiots like Random, his socks and similar posters will start banging on about it in the 2019 S2H thread.

In other news, they just ran an article on Hoppy’s achievements. I’ll post it here verbatim. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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1 minute ago, trt131 said:

You have no rights at all in this.

Oh but I do.  Who do you think all the advertising is aimed at?

I am part of the consumer audience, I am part of the sailing community and I drink wine and occasionally visit the Whitsundays.

But the wine and the resort can get fucked based on the behaviour linked to the brands.

Cue the trolls!

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17 minutes ago, Bill E Goat said:

So it got "Fried" and they managed to get it working or replaced it just after they docked !!

 

Especially interesting given that the transmit function of every cclass B AIS is carried out by the VHF antenna at the top of the mast.

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3 hours ago, hoppy said:

Non sailing media will have already forgotten this AIS issue by the time we hit 2019. In sailing magazines there will be an article or two about it and of course and editors rant on the AIS subject.  

Then this whole AIS thing will just blow over and never be brought up again.

Except on SA where this thread will keep going for ages. Then it will quieten down before idiots like Random, his socks and similar posters will start banging on about it in the 2019 S2H thread.

Fucking good fodder isn't it?

The rest of the media will shut the fuck up or they will never get another single $ from the Oately's.

That's how it works.  Just ask Sailor Girl.

Edit: But here in SA we don't care, we are ungovernable!

image.thumb.png.d9e3dc1d7a2b9ce657b0ed6c59382cb5.png

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If anyone is seriously considering a third party (if that's what it's called) R69 protest I would be happy to add my name to it.

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7 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

Hypothetically, why would that matter other than a few of your crew mates fucked it up for everyone?  So much for being a team.  

Hypothetically, % active vs passive/unaware cheaters

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Paps, you need to find a rule book, you cant protest RRS 69.  You have no skin in the fight therefore you cant protest for anything.

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4 minutes ago, paps49 said:

If anyone is seriously considering a third party (if that's what it's called) R69 protest I would be happy to add my name to it.

+1 Let's do it!

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Absolute contrived horseshit. That is contained in media releases coming out of mission control ever since the protest announcement. It (the wording/wording) was released to sailing publications over 12 hours ago.

Join the dots. First we didn't need to have it on. Then it was it was on but we didn't know it was off. Now it is we knew it was broke in Sydney Harbour but forgot to tell anyone.

This is like a train smash in slow motion.

 

" Now it is we knew it was broke in Sydney Harbour but forgot to tell anyone. "

If this statement is a correct statement of what happened then WO signed a false declaration upon finishing. Tsk tsk

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

Absolute contrived horseshit. That is contained in media releases coming out of mission control ever since the protest announcement. It (the wording/wording) was released to sailing publications over 12 hours ago.

Join the dots. First we didn't need to have it on. Then it was it was on but we didn't know it was off. Now it is we knew it was broke in Sydney Harbour but forgot to tell anyone.

This is like a train smash in slow motion.

When you’ve missed the chance to do the honorable gesture, anything subsequent is pathetic self serving drivel. 

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6 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Paps, you need to find a rule book, you cant protest RRS 69.  You have no skin in the fight therefore you cant protest for anything.

You need to check the rule book.

69.2
Action by a Protest Committee
 
  1. A protest committee acting under this rule shall have at least three members.
  2. When a protest committee, from its own observation or from information received from any source, including evidence taken during a hearing, believes a person may have broken rule 69.1(a), it shall decide whether or not to call a hearing.
  3. When the protest committee needs more information to make the decision to call a hearing, it shall consider appointing a person or persons to conduct an investigation. These investigators shall not be members of the protest committee that will decide the matter.
  4. When an investigator is appointed, all relevant information he gathers, favourable or unfavourable, shall be disclosed to the protest committee, and if the protest committee decides to call a hearing, to the parties.

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Random, competitors cannot protest under RRS 69,  A protest committee can have a hearing (not a protest hearing) under certain conditions.

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4 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Random, competitors cannot protest under RRS 69,  A protest committee can have a hearing (not a protest hearing) under certain conditions.

Seriously?  DO I have to skool you?

Non-competitors can supply the PC with information, there is no time limit.  They can launch an investigation, call hearings, it's serious.

In this case though there is enough information in the public domain that they brought to sport into disrepute that they could well do it themselves anyway.  The reason that no one wants to go there is that it opens the RRS up to the civil legal system.  But sometimes it is worth it to clean the sport up.

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2 hours ago, Francis Vaughan said:

Hmmm. The notion that the cameraman's transmission fried the AIS transmitter doesn't hold much water. 

Fry the AIS receiver maybe, but kill the transmitter and leave the receiver working takes some remarkable physics. Nor does the excuse match the point where it is apparent the AIS went off. And last of all, it doesn't match the AIS coming live again. 

Personally I'm quite happy to believe there was a fuck up. MR's statement about it not being mandatory is just as likely a reflex response to a blindsiding question about it not working as evidence of premeditated action. 

Most of this little story isn't about WOXI, it is about the nature of the culture, the players, and how the failure has been handled. No party comes out well. 

The notion that WOXI would have been unaware that they weren't transmitting also doesn't hold water.  They have the best satcomms money can buy on board and the chance that they weren't able to look at say marinetraffic.com is zero.  Sure they'd have been monitoring all the other supermaxis via an AIS feed into Expedition / Deckman whatever and maybe not monitoring marintraffic.com but I find it hard to believe they weren't looking at that too.

Applying a little root cause analysis would help.  Let's have an expert go over WOXI's Nav setup and see what particular AIS gear it has onboard and whether there even are mechanisms availble to switch off the transmit function.  Then we can rule in or out a few scenarios.

We could also dig up historic AIS data from last yar's S2H - maybe the cameraman didn't fry the AIS last year?

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11 hours ago, TPG said:

Jack jack jack, turn down the tens unit on your balls, you're making a scene. My bad for the statement, why did they cry to the media and not suck it up and file a formal protest is what I meant.

 

Harburg refused to protest. He was on TV news in Sydney directly after the hearing and said as much.

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11 hours ago, dachopper said:

Can't anyone who is still racing, lodge a protest now?

 

YES

we can only hope.

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1 minute ago, savoir said:

 

Harburg refused to protest. He was on TV news in Sydney directly after the hearing and said as much.

Stupid of him not to.  Sure, no-one wants to be a dick in the secret society of uber-rich gentlemen but sometrimes you just have to take one fo rthe team in the name of integrity.

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2 minutes ago, savoir said:

YES

we can only hope.

No, they are all outside the time limit for informing WO

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AIS deliberately switched off, AIS accidentally switched off or AIS fried, it doesn’t matter. The signed race declaration is false, and WOXI, the RO and the PC knew and found a way to do nothing about it.

Shame on all of them.

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2 minutes ago, savoir said:

 

Harburg refused to protest. He was on TV news in Sydney directly after the hearing and said as much.

Total bullshit.  Fuck him.  I put him one rung down on the ladder from MR and the ladder goes downhill.  What a bunch of shit.  They cheated but I'm not going to protest? Seriously?  You have an obligation to the fleet to protest when you see wrongdoing.  Protect the fleet.  So, what if Oats had flown an oversized chute in the middle of the night and only BJ noticed?  No protest?  Fuck them, they don't get it.  And Butterball was on board, fry him.  

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3 hours ago, jack_sparrow said:

What am I whining about?? Hint think carefully about that.

After careful thought I realize I meant to write whinging.  Thanks for the hint.  Might I suggest a nice big glass of HTFU?

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3 minutes ago, trt131 said:

No, they are all outside the time limit for informing WO

Wrong.

Every competitor has 6 hours from finishing as per sailing instruction 27.3.

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9 minutes ago, DickDastardly said:

Stupid of him not to.  Sure, no-one wants to be a dick in the secret society of uber-rich gentlemen but sometrimes you just have to take one fo rthe team in the name of integrity.

Agreed.

Harburg said something like " We never protest ".

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Just now, savoir said:

Wrong.

Every competitor has 6 hours from finishing as per sailing instruction 27.3.

But the protest would likely be invalid as they have to inform the protested boat as soon as they knew there was an issue.  You cant come ashore have a discussion with other people and then lodge a protest (I guess you can but it would be invalid)

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1 minute ago, trt131 said:

But the protest would likely be invalid as they have to inform the protested boat as soon as they knew there was an issue.  You cant come ashore have a discussion with other people and then lodge a protest (I guess you can but it would be invalid)

So how's that rule book check going on 69.2?

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6 hours ago, sunseeker said:

I’d suggest that “traditionally, at the Corinthian level, the sport is self policing.”

Where the sport has gone wrong is in not having a more active police force for all pro racing, like in match racing and TP 52’s.

to try and think it possible to maintain the “Corinthian spirit” with a bunch of paid whores pulling ropes for rich owners” is like thinking the hooker is really a virgin.

You do have a point sunseeker and in actual fact more and more regattas have officials on the water..

Trouble is most events use judges and not umpires and actually call it "On the Water Judging".

And here I should mention a "conflict of interest";-). I a an aspiring umpire but with only around 700 races under my belt so far. 

I say trouble with judges not because I would doubt their rules knowledge but because in most cases their skill set is different.

Their knowledge of procedure (validity and all that) is right up there but they normally have the luxury of being able to take their time to reach a decision. As an umpire, you have seconds - typically 3-5 of them - to make a call. Add to that the boat handling ability and positioning to be in the right place at the right time to view potential incidents and flags.

Add to that, certainly out our way some of them wouldn't recognise an ooch or a rocket if it bit them in the ass having never been sailors themselves.

It is sad to even be writing this as someone who grew up in a sport where I witnessed someone retiring because they broke a rule but were unseen by other competitors (yes I am that old) but that appears to be the world we live in.

Having said that most of the calls we make on the water are because people DO know the rules and ARE playing fairly. It is rather because the competition is so intense and because they are pushing the limit more that they are slipping over the limit and believe they are right.

Perhaps more "Go-Pro" type devices might help, not because they DO catch the action but because they MIGHT catch the action but many PCs are loath to allow their evidence so I am unsure on that. Or perhaps PCs need to move with the times?

One thing I am certain of, and that is if we don't address the situation it will only become worse. Do examples need to be made of? Probably!

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Random, you suggested joining some to protest under RRS 69.  Again you cannot lodge a protest for that rule.  The protest committee are the only ones that can decide to have a hearing.  It is pointless carrying on with you as you are just too stupid to understand.  I love the way LB puts you down.

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4 minutes ago, trt131 said:

Random, you suggested joining some to protest under RRS 69.  Again you cannot lodge a protest for that rule.  The protest committee are the only ones that can decide to have a hearing.  It is pointless carrying on with you as you are just too stupid to understand.  I love the way LB puts you down.

Weasel words, all you got?

You read 69.2 and it is so clear that even a fuckwit like you could understand it.  No protest required.  Just have to provide the PC with eveidence that the sport has been bought into disrepute and they do the rest.

But you got that i''m sure, you are just playing fucking dumb, not that you have to try hard.

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1 minute ago, random said:

Weasel words, all you got?

You read 69.2 and it is so clear that even a fuckwit like you could understand it.  No protest required.  Just have to provide the PC with eveidence that the sport has been bought into disrepute and they do the rest.

But you got that i''m sure, you are just playing fucking dumb, not that you have to try hard.

Instead of spouting on this forum why dont you do just that.  Come back later and report the outcome.

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All of the above is immaterial as they were not even eligible to start due to non-compliance with the clause in the SI's that required all competitors to have a functioning AIS that both received and transmitted.

End of story!~

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