socalrider

Performance boat as a family daysailer

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More rumination on a dreary New Year's Eve in SD...

I'm continuing to contemplate a smaller, lighter boat for daysailing - something that'd be fun, easy to sail, weekendable for me and a couple of kids and manageable to singlehand.  

J-boats seem to have this equation pretty well dialed in.  But they are pricey and not terribly high performance.  Keep in mind it's really deep where I sail, and we're almost always in the 8-12kts range, with a good Pacific swell once out of the Bay.  

Has anyone used a relatively modern performance boat primarily as a daysailer?  I'm thinking FT-10, 1D35, etc.  These seem to be incredible value for the $$, and pretty widely available.  They often have big open cockpits, open transoms and no backstay for easy swimming, non-overlapping jibs, sprits, and no checks/runners.  They have deep keels & lots of ballast so should be stiff if appropriately reefed.  Accommodations are spartan but doable for a few kids over a weekend - the FT10 seems particularly spartan, but could probably be spruced up a bit for a few boat bucks.  Compared to a more classic "daysailer" like a J/100, e33, or Alerion 28, they are substantially less expensive and faster.  And no exterior wood.  What's not to like?  

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hey man i can tell you for a fact that a tiger can absolutely be camped on! i had all new interior and cokpit cushions made, a cockpit awning and a giant raft at the back. 

sure, its no swan 60, but for white trash, beverly hillbillies style camping, it's hella fun!

fun fact: the boat has a very comfortable v berth, and can actually sleep 6 - not that you'd want to!

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While you are dreaming, wish for a boat with a reasonable PHRF rating. Most of us bought the boat we have without consideration of it's PHRF rating. The price was right, liked it's looks, it was a good sea boat for the around the world trip you will never do, your wife liked the interior, whatever. Now you are stuck with it, can't afford to get rid of it and get  one more appropriate for racing. So don't forget to include  it's PHRF rating in your considerations.

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Easy to do as long as everyone is on board.  we had a Farr 30 and it was perfect and fun.  Took it to the Island, overnight in the turning basin kinda camping.  Now do the same thing (sorta) with the Platu 25.

If I had the $$ I would do the 1d35.

Lots of fun.

Cheers!

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If your family is willing and able to crew competently then it's doable. If they are in the "I'm being taken on a boat ride" mentality then it's a PITA.

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30 minutes ago, NaptimeAgain said:

If your family is willing and able to crew competently then it's doable. If they are in the "I'm being taken on a boat ride" mentality then it's a PITA.

Curious why you think this is the case on a performance boat more than a normal daysailer, as it kind of gets to the heart of my question.  Lots of the older performance boats had checks, runners, big overlapping jibs, spin pole, IOR broaching tendancies, etc. that made them difficult to manage but it seems that the newer boats are actually easier on the crew, particularly if you're not trying to get that last 5-10%.  

@Training Wheels, yeah, I looked at the Corsairs a bunch and have sailed on some.  They are amazing, and seem particularly well suited for SoCal wind speeds, but not really optimal for marina berthing.  The extra setup/takedown of folding, dealing with growth on the amas, etc. has them and most multihulls out of contention for now at least.  

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J/92 ticks most of your boxes. Easy to shorthand.  Sprit is easy too. No runners or checks, open transom. Enclosed marine head and inboard.

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5 hours ago, socalrider said:

What's not to like?  

ft = no enclosed head for the girls

facts are facts and the fact is they want an enclosed head.

a discussion might be in order

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J100

Gramps had one up at our place in Canada

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Even with a simple rig, folks need to sit on the rail to keep the boat sailing reasonably flat. And a sport boat doesnt have the inertia of a heavy long keeled cruiser. So people still need to pay attention to keep the pointy end on course. 

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14 hours ago, ctutmark said:

I would add the Farr 30 to your list. Good ones can be had for less than a J105. 

 

Can't be reefed and headsails are basically all the same size.  Depowering will be an issue.

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In the PNW there seem to be a number of 30 footers built in the mid 80's-90's with that idea in mind. The Martin 30, Myrrh, Davidson 29 and Kennedy 30 all seem to have that general idea in mind and would probably all do well if changed to a bowsprit A-sail type setup. 

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13 hours ago, VWAP said:

J100

Gramps had one up at our place in Canada

Not much room for you and the commodores red haired twins though........................

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J-92 seems a good candidate.  Certainly is high up on my list.

If you can track it down, check out the Andrews 28 that moved to Dago recently.  Although only four built, maybe it could spur some interest in getting the tooling back in production again!!!!!!!

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23 minutes ago, Hitchhiker said:

J-92 seems a good candidate.  Certainly is high up on my list.

If you can track it down, check out the Andrews 28 that moved to Dago recently.  Although only four built, maybe it could spur some interest in getting the tooling back in production again!!!!!!!

If willing/able to build a new boat, the new J/99 has available water ballast.  A lot of the boat being discussed need lots of railmeat to sail well.

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I would be leery of taking small children or dogs on a boat that has an open transom.  I wouldn't want to risk anyone falling out the back.

 

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Actually, a J-105 is not a bad candidate.  Described by some as a touch sticky in light airs but it was our 'family daysailer' for a few years in SoCal...okay, so the kids weren't really 'into' sailing.  Let's call it 'hers and my ' daysailer/overnighter...  The Admiral cried when we (I) sold it....

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Tartan 10 checks many boxes but is in the 125 range in PHRF.  Doesn't get much simpler.  

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Voice of experience:  TP52s are not a good choice.  

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3 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

J-92 seems a good candidate.  Certainly is high up on my list.

If you can track it down, check out the Andrews 28 that moved to Dago recently.  Although only four built, maybe it could spur some interest in getting the tooling back in production again!!!!!!!

Builder (Ivan) still has #1 in BC Canada. #2 in SD, I have #3, and #4 is in Hampton VA. When I spoke with Ivan a few mom ago, I got the impression he has no interest in building boats anymore. I would guess you might need at least 10 confirmed orders with deposits to get things moving, whether with him or a different builder.

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There may be a couple of Jeanneau SunFast 3200s on the market.  They are excellent shorthanded boats, and pretty stiff.  They love the breeze.  But get the v2 version as the cockpit and main sheet arrangement are so much better.  V-berth forward, and two wide bunks under the cockpit.  Head is forward.  No runners, open transom, and applying a simple folding swim ladder would be easy.

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23 hours ago, Editor said:

hey man i can tell you for a fact that a tiger can absolutely be camped on! i had all new interior and cokpit cushions made, a cockpit awning and a giant raft at the back. 

sure, its no swan 60, but for white trash, beverly hillbillies style camping, it's hella fun!

fun fact: the boat has a very comfortable v berth, and can actually sleep 6 - not that you'd want to!

Much as I love the boat, it might be a bit tippy for a couple with small kids. Other than that, it ticks all the boxes.

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3 hours ago, captain_crunch said:

I would be leery of taking small children or dogs on a boat that has an open transom.  I wouldn't want to risk anyone falling out the back.

 

Why?

No more tendency to fall out the open transom than falling off the boat any other way. A mesh would easily fix it, and open transoms have a lot of advantages IMHO

FB- Doug

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^^ On my boat, the dog and the kid stay in the cockpit when the boat is underway.  

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J/88: Roller furling small jib, prod, head, inboard, open transom. We weekend ours all the time. I think there is a nice blue one for sale in your area.

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22 hours ago, Parma said:

ft = no enclosed head for the girls

facts are facts and the fact is they want an enclosed head.

a discussion might be in order

 

12 hours ago, Tax Man said:

Can't be reefed and headsails are basically all the same size.  Depowering will be an issue.

Rubbish to both. 

You might need some extra hardware (like a curtain) which may or may not already be on the boat of your choice. 

If those are your issues then you are making excuses up. 

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2 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

Not much room for you and the commodores red haired twins though........................

We're gonna borrow Scooters FT10. He wrote you can get 6 in the V berth. 

Thanks for reminding me, gotta call the twins and have them bring a few girls from the soccer team to check out the v berth. 

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Thanks a lot for the thoughtful reply guys.  

FT10 is intriguing though not a beautiful boat to my eye.  Anyone in SD looking for crew?  Seems like a screaming deal for the performance.  Question: I keep hearing about performance boats "needing rail meat" to sail flat, and the FT10 in particular.  But it has a very high ballast/displacement ratio (44%), combined with a pretty deep bulb keel.  So why would it be more "tippy" than, say a J/88 which weighs 500lbs more, but has 100lbs less in the keel?  Is it just because it has ~100sqft more sail area?  If that's the case, it's not a problem since we're a light air venue and I can always reef.  

I do like the J boats - great aesthetics, resale, solid construction, well thought out, etc.  Trying to see how they compare to the lighter, cheaper options out there.  

I don't have a specific budget or max age in mind, though a brand new J/99 is likely more than I'd want to spend - what are they going to cost?  Hard to argue with the value of some of these used options - FT10s asking $35k, 1d35s asking $48k.  The J/88 looks great but over $100k I'd need to see a strong value versus the others or a J/92S for half that.  

One more thought - enclosed head is kind of nice, though I'm fully bought into the composting toilet concept, so maybe easier to rig up a solution for me than others.  

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5 hours ago, socalrider said:

Question: I keep hearing about performance boats "needing rail meat" to sail flat, and the FT10 in particular.

Because people don't know how to sail?   Perhaps haven't spent long enough growing up in dinghys? 

Every boat needs bodies to sail flat.  The more narrow the boat, the less body weight on the rail matters.  Wider boats need less bodies to do the same thing.   I would have thought FT10's fit int he former category.  Overall, it's a good thing yachts are rarely, if ever, sailed flat.

Day sailing, with the family? who cares.  Performance boats are fun to sail...  pick a boat that puts a smile on the dial and sail it sensibly to the conditions.

 

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5 hours ago, socalrider said:

One more thought - enclosed head is kind of nice, though I'm fully bought into the composting toilet concept, so maybe easier to rig up a solution for me than others.  

Sorry, should have added this bit in.

Enclosed heads seem like a great idea.  Everyone says  "oh the girls demand a closed head".  Frankly I've never had a girl on my boat demanding a closed head.  Maybe that says something about the kinda girls I have on my boat, or the fact I don't have a closed head.  A little privacy maybe, but frankly even most guys like that really.  Who really wants other people seeing you go to the head? I mean really?  Closed heads also have the tendency to a) stink and b) make people feel (more) queasy in a moving boat due to the tight quarters.

Worst case, put a curtain up.   IMHO, it shouldn't be a deal breaker, but that's just me.

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I have a Fareast28R that would make a good day Sailing overnighter. A huge cockpit and enough room below decks to set up for camping and a semi enclosed( curtain) head. 

Roller furler jib and a mainsail that is reef able with the boom about 7 feet off the cockpit sole so your kids don’t clunk their heads as they grow taller.

Great speed, stability and fun for the whole family. Just don’t invite the mother in law...

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7 hours ago, Spoonie said:

Sorry, should have added this bit in.

Enclosed heads seem like a great idea.  Everyone says  "oh the girls demand a closed head".  Frankly I've never had a girl on my boat demanding a closed head.  Maybe that says something about the kinda girls I have on my boat, or the fact I don't have a closed head.  A little privacy maybe, but frankly even most guys like that really.  Who really wants other people seeing you go to the head? I mean really?  Closed heads also have the tendency to a) stink and b) make people feel (more) queasy in a moving boat due to the tight quarters.

Worst case, put a curtain up.   IMHO, it shouldn't be a deal breaker, but that's just me.

SWMBO demanded an enclosed head, which is the sole reason I didn't buy a Rocket 22 in 2009-2010. Refused the porta potty idea. The 5 gal bucket idea was roundly scorned too. Literally why I have a boat that benefits from having a crew.

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Been Island hopping with my new to me Lumbo 32. Super happy with the simplicity and performance it offers. It's no Melges 32 but that's not what I got it for.

For a keelboat, it sails very well for someone like me who demands a good performance ride.

Standing headroom, ample V-berth, inboard sail drive, Fat head Main, Aso, Carbon Southern Spars rig, and a monster cockpit. Friends and I can race around the cans or point to point and more importantly the wife, dogs, and I can spend a week on it comfortably and still plane downwind all the way home in some breeze. When they came out, SA trolls castrated the boat in usual fashion and the FT put the nails in the coffin for any future builds. I think they built about a dozen or so. If you can find one, they are a deal. Funny how J-Boats developed the J88 with almost the same design parameters a decade later.

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We had a Soling for our family daysailer for about 10 years. Easy to get under way. Nothing too powerful for little hands & arms.  Moves well in light air and stable for safety.  Big deck for lounging. Nice cockpit for picnic coolers.  Winter storage on the trailer in the yard or driveway.  Not expensive to own or maintain.  Old Etchells would work too. 

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1 hour ago, Irrational 14 said:

Been Island hopping with my new to me Lumbo 32. Super happy with the simplicity and performance it offers. It's no Melges 32 but that's not what I got it for.

This is really appealing - seems like it hits my requirements square on the head.  YW lists one on the gulf coast for $59k, looks like it's been there for a while, with an Al mast and outboard in a well.  Seems like a great deal; I'd probably need to add a kelp cutter.  Is the quoted  ~4200lb displacement correct?  

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SoCal - To answer your question...

The boats were originally all 30 footers then the builder either modified and/or built them to varying specs/options requested by owner. Essentially custom builds. They vary a bit in mast/engine/length, and displ. Obviously the outboard option is much lighter. I'd say most of the boats are in the 4200-4900lb. displ arena. The one listed has been offered for awhile. That boat is very nice, stored indoors from what I know. PM me if you need any other info. Happy to help. The boat is cool, seems to be built very well and finished in quality gear. Looking forward to some downwind point to point events this year after I sort some new sail inventory.

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Some thoughts for your consideration...

Boats like the FT and Columbia 32 are typically set up such that main has to come off and be rolled/folded, same for jib, and typically have to pull/insert job battens each time.  No big deal from a crewed racing perspective, more of a PITA from a daysailing perspective...both boats/sails can be modified to make sailhandling easier but need to budget/factor depending on a particular boats setup...

i hate dealing with having to dump the tank from a porta-potti, plus they may not have enough volume for a long weekend with a couple kids in harbors where peeing overboard at anchor is not appropriate...

a manaul head and holding tank is easier to deal with/offers more “holding”...

For daysailing, I like inboard diesels better than outboard on the stern.  Never had a boat with outboard in a well like FT/C32, so that might be ok 

 

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Crash - good points. The jibs are dinky so no issues there but the main is a frickin monster. A bit of a bother in the big breezes. I keep a delivery main on most of the time when not racing but may consider slugs with a fast pin setup to detach the fat head when sail is on boom. Getting better at it but still a chore.

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Really good points there - I'd definitely want to be able to set up a lazy jack type system as well as a furler for the jib.  No interest in trying to get my 5,8,10yr old daughters to help remove battens and fold a 400sqft mainsail every time we go out.  I suspect that this means most of whatever sail inventory comes with the boat will be useless for me.

I crewed on a F82 tri with slugs on a nice carbon fathead main, as well as a fast pin for the top batten and lazy jack/bag system that seemed to work well. I imagine something like that would be pretty manageable without a big performance hit.  

I hate porta-potties as well, but my c-head works really well for weekends and is vastly preferable to heads/tanks.  My F405 had a silly 10gal holding tank which filled *immediately* upon anchoring.  The c-head pee tank fills up after a couple of days, but is way easier/less gross to dump, and you can just cap and fill additional 1gal milk jugs Howard Hughes style for longer trips.  Way better than stinky hoses, pump-outs, etc.  In an ideal world I'd plumb a small holding tank (5gal) just to the pee tank, but I haven't worked out exactly how to do that.  

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hqdefault.jpg

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

hqdefault.jpg

VWAP finally posts a picture of his boat.

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SoCal, if you want to do a performance daysailer on the cheap you might look into a B-25. I have no experience personally but a friend who'd had one once told me his wife would jump ship to crew on one again. Plenty of room to add bunk cushions on the molded in benches below and you could jury rig a curtain for your composter. Otherwise, I like the J 88 idea but that would be a bunch more MMUs. 

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2 hours ago, socalrider said:

Really good points there - I'd definitely want to be able to set up a lazy jack type system as well as a furler for the jib.  No interest in trying to get my 5,8,10yr old daughters to help remove battens and fold a 400sqft mainsail every time we go out.  I suspect that this means most of whatever sail inventory comes with the boat will be useless for me.

I crewed on a F82 tri with slugs on a nice carbon fathead main, as well as a fast pin for the top batten and lazy jack/bag system that seemed to work well. I imagine something like that would be pretty manageable without a big performance hit.  

I hate porta-potties as well, but my c-head works really well for weekends and is vastly preferable to heads/tanks.  My F405 had a silly 10gal holding tank which filled *immediately* upon anchoring.  The c-head pee tank fills up after a couple of days, but is way easier/less gross to dump, and you can just cap and fill additional 1gal milk jugs Howard Hughes style for longer trips.  Way better than stinky hoses, pump-outs, etc.  In an ideal world I'd plumb a small holding tank (5gal) just to the pee tank, but I haven't worked out exactly how to do that.  

Let me start with the sails.

You can add lazy jacks to just about any main.  Even WOXI has lazy jacks.  You can either make a lazy jack kit yourself, have a rigger or sailmaker do it, or buy a kit off the shelf

Forget furlers, Hanked jibs rock my world, especially in the 30' range.  I thought about getting a furler, I did a lot of research but it was ultimately the rigger (who could have just sold me the furler) who talked me out of it.

With hanks, I can have the jib dropped to deck, flaked, and into a bag single handed in just about any condition.  I also have a 2/3 jib with a reef point.  I've never used the reef point in anger and frankly, rarely need the 2/3 (my #1 jib will take me up to 18/20 knots).   the 3 Battens are a 1 minute job max and can be done with the sail flaked in the turtle bag.   My 2/3 I can bag and fold in half with the battens still in.  The #1 I have to take the battens out.  It would easy to have an existing or new sail cut for smaller battens you don't need to remove. I've discussed it with my sailmaker and not bothered.

I note that hanked jibs are common on 30' style single handed race boats.  The config I'm at came with some experimentation and modification to existing sails.  You don't need to throw them away.  Cost a few hundred bucks for each mod so in the scheme of things, not too bad.

Re main and reefs.  I reworked my reef system to single line reefing.  That ultimately cost a lot because I bought a new boom to do it with.   My old main, I had a second reef point added after the fact.  My new one I have just left the single reef point.  My sail maker assures me adding another reef point to my existing (new) main will be a no brainer if I ever feel the need.  Similar dimensions to the 28r up above, I generally have no problem short handed managing the full main up to 18/20 knots, and with the single reef above that.

Day sailing, if it's really snotty, we just put the jib up.  In fact more often than not, if we're day sailing it's just under jib.  Boat gets along fine and less to deal with while family and friends are about.

Re Toilet:

I made my main point above, but frankly, I've grown to love the porta potti.  You use less water mostly because #1's don't require water flush to pump.  So a reasonable size one fills less IMHO.  I've never found it an issue, and have never, ever, filled it where I couldn't just nip in to an anchorage or toilets off a wharf somewhere to dump it.   Heaps easier than finding a pump out facility and dealing with broken pumps, leaking pipes, and various smells. 

I've known a few owners who have bought boats specifically because of demands from the wife or whoever (enclosed heads etc...) and regretted it later.   You get the enclosed head only for the wife (or whoever) to realise it's still not a domestic toilet and no level of boat furniture blocks any smell or noise.  They come out twice, still hate it, and never come out again.

Each to their own really.

Here are some of the key features of my boat that make for better family day sail / weekend experiences.

* it is setup to be sailed solo.   Everything is in reach standing with the tiller between my legs.  

* Oversized self tailing primaries.  (we added these after purchase)

* Short/non overlapped jibs

* reasonable Bunks in the main cabin.  My wife doesn't like enclosed spaces.  She called the pipe cots "coffins".  I ultimately removed them but now with Little miss will probably need to put one back in somewhere.   It also serves as a place for wife, kids, and friends to go if the weather goes bad.  A month or so ago I found myself up on deck alone trying to drive the boat home in a 45knot squall while everyone sat below toasty, comfortable, and warm.

* a semi private forward area one can stand up in (to get changed etc...) I have a full sized bulkhead just behind the mast.

* clipping point in the cockpit for the 3 year old.  Probably less of an issue for your kids

* An ability to sit up against the cabin bulkhead in the cockpit and be semi sheltered.

* Open transom with ladder.  Jump off, swim off, whatever...

* enough seating space around the cockpit  at anchor for ~8 adults

* Esky in easy reach of cockpit.  Don't need to go into the cabin to get stuff out.

 

Some features that are not so family friendly but kinda of necessary:

* main sheet system in the center of the cockpit.

* "the tiller zone" in the cockpit is about 1 1/2 meters of a ~3m cockpit of no go while under way

* A lowish boom

* rear traveller risks while under way. keep toes and fingers away.

* Combination of Cedar smell and diesel that permeates ever slightly through everything.  I think it's mostly cedar smell.

 

Anyway, that's just my experience.  First and foremost I needed a boat I enjoyed sailing.  I wasn't married then but I was conscious of some future needs.  Other just happened accidentally.  Given everything and our experiences, if I was to buy a new boat, the J99 seems closest to my dream list of features, but would need to see how it sails single handed.

*shrug*

 

 

 

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6 minutes ago, Spoonie said:

 

I made my main point above, but frankly, I've grown to love the porta potti.  You use less water mostly because #1's don't require water flush to pump.  So a reasonable size one fills less IMHO.  I've never found it an issue, and have never, ever, filled it where I couldn't just nip in to an anchorage or toilets off a wharf somewhere to dump it.   Heaps easier than finding a pump out facility and dealing with broken pumps, leaking pipes, and various smells. 

I've known a few owners who have bought boats specifically because of demands from the wife or whoever (enclosed heads etc...) and regretted it later.   You get the enclosed head only for the wife (or whoever) to realise it's still not a domestic toilet and no level of boat furniture blocks any smell or noise.  They come out twice, still hate it, and never come out again.

 

You love your porta potty? Ha ha ha that has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

There is no way in hell that huffing around a big plastic box full of sloshing shit & piss is a better way to go than having a pump out service come to your boat for $25. Just no fucking way.

And anybody who has ever had to dump out and then clean out a porta potty knows the foul and wretched mess that inevitably occurs, never mind the cleaning of the porta potty thereafter. Dry heaving comes to mind.

My boat is 12 years old now and I’ve never had a problem with the head. Just squirt some of that blue Lysol around under the rim at the end of the day and you’re good to go with no smells at all. Let me repeat that: no smells at all after 12 years.

And the idea that young girls or women prefer a porta potty over an enclosed head and would prefer to sail on a boat with a porta potty is just ridiculous.

Just stop. Please, just stop.

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8 minutes ago, Parma said:

You love your porta potty? Ha ha ha that has got to be one of the most ridiculous things I have ever heard.

There is no way in hell that huffing around a big plastic box full of sloshing shit & piss is a better way to go than having a pump out service come to your boat for $25. Just no fucking way.

And anybody who has ever had to dump out and then clean out a porta potty knows the foul and wretched mess that inevitably occurs, never mind the cleaning of the porta potty thereafter. Dry heaving comes to mind.

My boat is 12 years old now and I’ve never had a problem with the head. Just squirt some of that blue Lysol around under the rim at the end of the day and you’re good to go with no smells at all. Let me repeat that: no smells at all after 12 years.

And the idea that young girls or women prefer a porta potty over an enclosed head and would prefer to sail on a boat with a porta potty is just ridiculous.

Just stop. Please, just stop.

Well you have your experiences and preferences, and I have mine.  

I didn't say prefer, I said they don't complain.  Frankly, I find the whole generalised "girls prefer" thing a bit shit.. (scuse the pun).   We would all love domestic toilets with brass taps and scented face washes,  but 30' performance boats are about compromises.   You make yours, others will make theirs.  I've mad mine, and from *my experience* it has not been a problem.

Having experienced the joys of fixing various parts of a fixed head, the simplicity and convenience of the porta loo is a relief.  I've considered a c head though.  Given there are whole sites, blogs, and forums set up around the joys of boat heads, I'm sure my experiences are not unique.

Anyone that comes on my boat understands the porta loo situation.  Most of my friends and family have loo experiences far worse than what's on our boat.  Camping trips with shovels, camp drop toilets, event portaloos etc... doesn't stop them using them.  My 3yo doesn't know any different.  I would hope she would grow up without becoming so precious.  The primary concern is and has been some level of privacy.  on a 30' boat, you are only going to get visual privacy.

My wife (girl friend at the time) was a bit reluctant at first.  Maybe she would prefer a proper head, but frankly just gets on with it.  

Like I said, your experience might be different.  But my experience is mine.  It might be a different point of view, but it's a point of view, and I prefer our porta potti.

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Forget the ID35. They will not make a good family boat, they are uncomfortable,  getting the mainsail up is a PITA with loaded lines running through the boat. Delamination is a thing with these and other boats of the era.

Since it is your money. How about a J92?  2 adults can sail this boat well for PHRF racing - ideally meaning less yelling and better sail management. The rig is a very neat set up. Asm spin and bowsprit for modern sexiness. most jib tacks can be handled by hand. Clean cockpit with open transom, inclosed head and racks for 4. The comprise of not a quite ULDB will make for more family comfort. The interior is spartan but has enough to make her more than a sportsboat and answers the questions of limited costal racer. Stay on your game and you can keep the O30 from taking your pickle plate.

J92_spin05-797-913-470-100-c.jpg

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5 hours ago, slap said:

VWAP finally posts a picture of his boat.

Ummm no, but that thing is better than any Hunter "sailboat" you  "sail" on

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A hint for a hanked jib for family outings.

Rig a light downhaul through the hanks to the top hank (not the head), and lead it back to a cam cleat in the cockpit.  Smoke the halyard, pull on the downhaul and sheet, and there's no need to go forward at all.  Some bronze hanks have an extra hole just for this.

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3 hours ago, VWAP said:

Ummm no, but that thing is better than any Hunter "sailboat" you  "sail" on

Actually, I've never sailed on a Hunter. 

But that boat you posted fits your "size".

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On 1/1/2019 at 12:23 PM, Veeger said:

Actually, a J-105 is not a bad candidate.  Described by some as a touch sticky in light airs but it was our 'family daysailer' for a few years in SoCal...okay, so the kids weren't really 'into' sailing.  Let's call it 'hers and my ' daysailer/overnighter...  The Admiral cried when we (I) sold it....

Having raced them and cruised on them for over 20 years they are ideal for short-handed kite flying sailing.  Everyone throws out there suggestions but for a family the list gets chopped down easily.  Having raced a 1D35 I would say it is not the family category boat.  Very limited bulkheads and no privacy.  Not a camping boat, more the racer.  I would also add that an asymmetrical set up is the easiest and most practical.  Might make your price go up based on newer models vs older models but...

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8 hours ago, slap said:

Actually, I've never sailed 

But that boat you posted fits your "size".

Umm no, you are wrong yet again.

 

 

 

fify

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I have no answer to the privacy concern but the whole porta complaint makes no sense to me. I can recall maybe one occasion when someone took a dump in our head during a day sail in all our years and boats. I brief everyone to hit the head at the clubhouse before we shove off but, well, beer is beer and if you stay out long enough, the crew is gonna need to take a leak. Dumping a porta full of pee would be no big deal to me. 

As for cruising, anybody who thinks there is head privacy cruising a 30' or less performance boat is dreaming. That's a roughing it item that all hands have to be prepared to accept and I wouldn't let it guide your decision, unless it's to buy a bigger boat. 

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The porta potty on my center console power boat works fine. Easy to use. And no boat plumbing to deal with. If it ever gets dirty just take it out and use a garden hose. As to the other comments...

On the Andrews 28 I have a 5/6 fractional, furling jib with vertical battens, rolls up easily. I made a Sunbrella cover that goes up on a spin halyard. Full length zippers so one person hoists while someone else just holds the zipper. Has a designed break between zippers for the sheets to come out. The main is a handful if you aren't quick with the flaking and sail ties. Made a Sunbrella cover for that too. It comes down quickly with the Ronstan cars/track unless you tend the halyard. But the sails can stay rigged without UV exposure. Sunbrella tarp over the boom for shade, rigged with a tension set up with 4 trigger snaps for quick attachment to existing deck fittings.  Small Yanmar diesel with a sail drive. Agree wresting with an outboard and gas cans is a pain, did that with someone else's boat. The tiller and traveler mean the aft half of the cockpit is basically unavailable underway except for the helmsman who also tends the backstay. V berth forward, quarter birth aft to port. Small kids could sleep on the cabin settees.

But we never overnighted even on the powerboat. Just never enjoyed it.

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21 hours ago, Spoonie said:

Let me start with the sails.

 

Forget furlers, Hanked jibs rock my world, especially in the 30' range.  I thought about getting a furler, I did a lot of research but it was ultimately the rigger (who could have just sold me the furler) who talked me out of it.

With hanks, I can have the jib dropped to deck, flaked, and into a bag single handed in just about any condition.  I also have a 2/3 jib with a reef point.  I've never used the reef point in anger and frankly, rarely need the 2/3 (my #1 jib will take me up to 18/20 knots).   the 3 Battens are a 1 minute job max and can be done with the sail flaked in the turtle bag.   My 2/3 I can bag and fold in half with the battens still in.  The #1 I have to take the battens out.  It would easy to have an existing or new sail cut for smaller battens you don't need to remove. I've discussed it with my sailmaker and not bothered.

* it is setup to be sailed solo.   Everything is in reach standing with the tiller between my legs.  

*

Those statements don't fit.  

Please, tell us how to drop, remove hanks, flake and bag the jib with the tiller between your legs.  Gorilla arms and super long tiller? 

 

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I think he means he can drop the headsail on the foredeck using the tagline while underway, it will stay more or less flaked and under control while he docks and then he goes forward, cleans up the pleats a bit and bags it without a lot of fuss. 

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Hanks = a trip to the bow, there's just no way around it.  Switching to that storm jib in 20+ knots single handed sounds like a recipe for disaster to me.  On re-reading his post, he does say he does it in 'any condition'. 

Meanwhile, with my roller furling jib, I can set, reef and douse the jib from the tiller. 

I'm not against hanks, but let's be reasonable about the pluses and minuses.   (same for porta-potties, for that matter)

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You"re pretty exposed on a 30/32 performance sailboat anyway you look at it. Whether in the cockpit or on the foredeck, risk is higher than a deep cockpit cruiser.

A non overlapping jib w/hanks and battens is cake to handle. Furlers usually complicate the boat that size and can take away sail area where it's really needed.

Limp leeches are also not great. As the boats and/or head sails get bigger, furlers start to make sense.

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I hadn't really contemplated hanks but I agree it seems to make sense with a non-overlapping fractional jib.  I like the downhaul idea, though it's one extra line to get fouled.  Growing up racing in the 80's we used to laugh at furling headsails the way we now do at in-mast furling mains, but I've come around like most - certainly appropriate for our 120% masthead genoa!  

Lots to think about here - thanks everyone.  

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I can vouch for the J88 as a great option, manageable sail area and really nice to helm, a couple of boats from the UK even had full B&G pilots installed, for day sailing i’d have a roller furling jib with vertical battens (our UK boats are all running foils) and a sensible spinnaker on a top down furler, probably the most fun you can have. If money is an issue then a 92s is relevant on all the points of the 88 but just a little heavier and not quite as fast.

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On 1/1/2019 at 9:27 AM, impetuous_donkey said:

In the PNW there seem to be a number of 30 footers built in the mid 80's-90's with that idea in mind. The Martin 30, Myrrh, Davidson 29 and Kennedy 30 all seem to have that general idea in mind and would probably all do well if changed to a bowsprit A-sail type setup. 

The Martin 30 mentioned here is in the classifieds: http://sailinganarchy.com/classifieds/show-ad/?id=3843

The Davidson 29s are legendary, but there are only 2 of them and I doubt either will even make it up for public sale.  The Davidson 30 "Dangerous When Wet" was recently for sale, maybe it still is.

The Martin 30 is a cool boat worth looking into.  I used to be down the dock from it and am friends with the previous owner.  It's all setup for simple short handed sailing with non-overlapping headsails (and a big fathead main), pretty low loads, minimal strings to mess with.  No sprit, but at the asking price there is a lot of budget to add one.

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Hi,

I wholeheartedly recommend the J/88.  We are actually selling ours, but it's a great boat.  It's fast, has decent cabin space, flies downwind, and is easy to sail.  We have come in second two years in a row in a double handed race and I have singlehanded the boat.  She sails like a big Laser!  The J100 is a different animal altogether.  The 92s is similar to the 88, but the 88 is a more modern design.  We do really well against the J/111 too on corrected.  You can't go wrong with the 88!

 

Mark

Alchemy_sunset.jpg

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On 1/1/2019 at 4:09 PM, NaptimeAgain said:

Builder (Ivan) still has #1 in BC Canada. #2 in SD, I have #3, and #4 is in Hampton VA. When I spoke with Ivan a few mom ago, I got the impression he has no interest in building boats anymore. I would guess you might need at least 10 confirmed orders with deposits to get things moving, whether with him or a different builder.

You are correct about Ivan's lack of interest in building the Andrews 28 again.  It's too bad because it looks like a great design.  I saw one in Vancouver 4 years ago and I was really impressed.  I told Ivan I would order one but as stated, they would need 10 orders to start production.  Too bad some of the best designs never make it.

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On ‎1‎/‎2‎/‎2019 at 7:38 AM, Irrational 14 said:

Been Island hopping with my new to me Lumbo 32. Super happy with the simplicity and performance it offers. It's no Melges 32 but that's not what I got it for.

 When they came out, SA trolls castrated the boat in usual fashion and the FT put the nails in the coffin for any future builds.

SA trolls didn't  break that rudder.

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59 minutes ago, j88alchemy@gmail.com said:

Hi,

I wholeheartedly recommend the J/88.  We are actually selling ours, but it's a great boat.  It's fast, has decent cabin space, flies downwind, and is easy to sail.  We have come in second two years in a row in a double handed race and I have singlehanded the boat.  She sails like a big Laser!  The J100 is a different animal altogether.  The 92s is similar to the 88, but the 88 is a more modern design.  We do really well against the J/111 too on corrected.  You can't go wrong with the 88!

 

Mark

Alchemy_sunset.jpg

When you say j/100 is a different animal, how so?  

Asking because I'm looking to possibly go to either of these boats.

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The 100 doesn't perform as well as the 88.  As fast as the 88 is, it's easy to sail and even in challenging conditions, inspires confidence.  I would encourage you to take a close look at both boats, but if you really want a fun, fast, easy to sail boat, go with the 88.  Contact me if you would like to take a look at ours.  

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I had the same problem.  

What I finally settled on was a shoal draft First 40.7.   Great boat for what I do some racing mostly beer drinking with the wife and friends 

its a lot of boat for the money  

 

 

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On 2/6/2019 at 4:11 PM, J88 Alchemy said:

The 100 doesn't perform as well as the 88.  As fast as the 88 is, it's easy to sail and even in challenging conditions, inspires confidence.  I would encourage you to take a close look at both boats, but if you really want a fun, fast, easy to sail boat, go with the 88.  Contact me if you would like to take a look at ours.  

Tried to message you but it's not working for me for some reason.  I've been looking at both boats fervently.  A LOT of my sailing is single handed, preferably  with kite up if there is time and a nice downwind run or deep reach up to about 18 knots or so.  I'm just wondering if the j88 is just gonna be too much of a tender crotch rocket for one person to handle, especially w/ the kite.

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