Wet Spreaders

Black Widow Bottom Paint

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I've been using Proline1088 with racing hardener for years, but mulling on making a change. What's the word on Black Widow? A quick forum search indicates that it's not a favorite for the yard guys, but what about owners (longevity?) and divers (hard stuff to scrub off?).

Also, any clue if it will stick to well-sanded Proline or whether I'll need aggressive removal of the old paint or a barrier?

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I chose Black Widow a couple seasons ago because it goes over VC Offshore with a light scuff. I've been very pleased after two seasons. There has been virtually no hard growth, and the bottom cleans up with a quick wipe with a soft scrubber or a terry towel. 

It takes a LOT to mix it properly. If I'm working with a gallon, I have to pour off solvent to make enough room, but next time I'll probably mix it in a 5 gallon bucket. Once it's mixed, it goes on with a short-nap roller very smoothly and at the right thickness. It dries hard and it takes some elbow grease to burnish. I used 400 grit on a da festool for the whole bottom and 1000 grit foam disks from the bow to the keel.  You can burnish it with rubbing compound if you want, but for me that was overkill.

This year when the boat was hauled, it showed the usual wear around the waterline, but it power-washed 100% clean and it will need only some basic scuffing before I re-coat. It's just as fast as the VC was, but actually has antifouling properties. I highly recommend it.

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Environment plays such a large part in bottom paint performance. A paint that works well in one geographic area may not work as well 50 miles away. 

 
I lived in Newport and used a locally (New Bedford)  produced bottom paint. Worked really well, never cleaned and had no hard growth at the end of the season. Four years along I moved to New London, CT. Same bottom paint and at the end of the season the bottom was covered with barnacles and hard growth.
 
Best to ask other locals what they use and what results they get. Make a test panel and hang it from your mooring for a season before going to the expense/effort of stripping your bottom to use a paint that may not perform.

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Sailorman, you are absolutely right that different areas will react differently. I keep the boat in a part of boston harbor that ranges from normal salt water concentrations to brackish because I'm close to the charles river. I know a few other people that have used BW successfully in other parts of Boston Harbor, Hingham, and Salem. Still a small sampling, but as I say, it's 100x better than what I was using.

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Don't know about it's performance in our local area but I've been told it can't go over proline 1088.  I have 1088 also and just recently had the bottom painted.  The guys at KKMI told me the only thing that can go over 1088 is 1088. 

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15 hours ago, Hugh Jorgan said:

Don't know about it's performance in our local area but I've been told it can't go over proline 1088.  I have 1088 also and just recently had the bottom painted.  The guys at KKMI told me the only thing that can go over 1088 is 1088. 

Yeah - I was just told the same thing. Proline 1088 is vinyl and so does not play nicely with other paints. It all has to come off to switch to something else. That's a spendy process and so I'll probably just forget about B-W and go with the 1088 again.

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I use Proline 1088 in Richmond, CA.  last bottom job lasted about 24 months on an every three month cleaning schedule.  I went to a two month cleaning schedule last spring hoping to get a third year out of it.  I did not know you can not use other paints over Proline.  I did that once going from VC 17 to Proline, it was spendy.  I guess I am staying with Proline for the foreseeable future.

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3 hours ago, Wet Spreaders said:

Yeah - I was just told the same thing. Proline 1088 is vinyl and so does not play nicely with other paints. It all has to come off to switch to something else. That's a spendy process and so I'll probably just forget about B-W and go with the 1088 again.

 

57 minutes ago, B dock said:

I use Proline 1088 in Richmond, CA.  last bottom job lasted about 24 months on an every three month cleaning schedule.  I went to a two month cleaning schedule last spring hoping to get a third year out of it.  I did not know you can not use other paints over Proline.  I did that once going from VC 17 to Proline, it was spendy.  I guess I am staying with Proline for the foreseeable future.

Get it while the gettin's good!  From what I understand (unless things have changed) Proline 1088 is no longer available in California except what the suppliers already have on hand.  I believe it's an EPA regulatory thingy.  Something about not killing off all the fish and dolphins.  I say fuck the fish and dolphins, I have a race to win (insert sarcasm emoji here).

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4 hours ago, Wet Spreaders said:

Yeah - I was just told the same thing. Proline 1088 is vinyl and so does not play nicely with other paints. It all has to come off to switch to something else. That's a spendy process and so I'll probably just forget about B-W and go with the 1088 again.

According to Pettit's compatibility chart http://www.pettitpaint.com/media/4122/antifouling-compatibility-chart-2018.pdf , Black Widow can be applied over other vinyl paints like Balto and VC Offshore. Or any hard bottom paint for that matter.  Just sand and apply.

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On 1/4/2019 at 5:20 PM, 12 metre said:

According to Pettit's compatibility chart http://www.pettitpaint.com/media/4122/antifouling-compatibility-chart-2018.pdf , Black Widow can be applied over other vinyl paints like Balto and VC Offshore. Or any hard bottom paint for that matter.  Just sand and apply.

Wow - Now I know why I like this forum so much. Nice find!

 

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I use Proline 1088 in Richmond, CA.  last bottom job lasted about 24 months on an every three month cleaning schedule.  I went to a two month cleaning schedule last spring hoping to get a third year out of it. 

Wow....  what was the growth like after 2-3 months?    I usually clean every 2-3 weeks and I usually regret going to 3 weeks as the little green patches start to appear.    Fresh paint yearly.

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On 1/4/2019 at 8:20 PM, 12 metre said:

According to Pettit's compatibility chart http://www.pettitpaint.com/media/4122/antifouling-compatibility-chart-2018.pdf , Black Widow can be applied over other vinyl paints like Balto and VC Offshore. Or any hard bottom paint for that matter.  Just sand and apply.

this is one of the reasons I chose it - easy application over VC Offshore.

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I am not a big racer so my operating budget is small and having a super clean bottom all the time is not fully necessary. I also sail pretty frequently if that has any impact.  For the last proline bottom job, growth was very manageable at 3 month intervals until about month 18 then it started noticeably occurring quicker and growth was easily visible.  Now after an April 2018 redo it stays fairly clean and two month interval seems to work for me 9 months in. I can certainly notice a performance boost right after the bottom has been scrubbed.  It seems to foul slower during winter when the sun angle is lower.  My boat is berthed in an east -west orientation, and sometimes I flip it around every other month during the summer.  If I raced frequently I would have to dive the boat myself, an option, but I am lazy and the water is cold.  My bottom scrubber is pretty responsive.  I can email them and in a couple days they come and clean it so if there is race coming up I can do that, but at $80 a cleaning, the cost is also an issue.  It's a toy after all.

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1 hour ago, B dock said:

I am not a big racer so my operating budget is small and having a super clean bottom all the time is not fully necessary. I also sail pretty frequently if that has any impact.  For the last proline bottom job, growth was very manageable at 3 month intervals until about month 18 then it started noticeably occurring quicker and growth was easily visible.  Now after an April 2018 redo it stays fairly clean and two month interval seems to work for me 9 months in. I can certainly notice a performance boost right after the bottom has been scrubbed.  It seems to foul slower during winter when the sun angle is lower.  My boat is berthed in an east -west orientation, and sometimes I flip it around every other month during the summer.  If I raced frequently I would have to dive the boat myself, an option, but I am lazy and the water is cold.  My bottom scrubber is pretty responsive.  I can email them and in a couple days they come and clean it so if there is race coming up I can do that, but at $80 a cleaning, the cost is also an issue.  It's a toy after all.

My approach to racing is that my equipment needs to be as perfect as I can make it before I leave the dock - and that includes a clean bottom. There are enough ways to screw up on the race course, the last thing I want to worry about is the equipment. It's fun just being out there - front, mid or back - but I guarantee that it's funner at the front, and you can't be at the front if you're dragging a zoo of critters through the water. I'd never consider going racing without having the bottom scrubbed the day before or morning of.

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Well different strokes, my sailing bent is different than yours.  I have enough competition in my professional life, I do not need to seek it out in my recreation. I do love a clean bottom though, doesn't everyone, but for the most part its cleanliness does not drive my fun factor or enjoyment of sailing.:D

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4 hours ago, alifish said:

Can multiple layers of Black Widow be applied? How much does it need to be sanded to recoat?

yes, I'd recommend at least two coats if you plan to burnish (3 on the leading foil edges and waterline). it doesn't need to be sanded much to re-coat if you are careful in your original application. they recommend you use 80 grit but I did it with 120 grit and it was fine.

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On 1/4/2019 at 4:21 PM, Hugh Jorgan said:

 

Get it while the gettin's good!  From what I understand (unless things have changed) Proline 1088 is no longer available in California except what the suppliers already have on hand.  I believe it's an EPA regulatory thingy.  Something about not killing off all the fish and dolphins.  I say fuck the fish and dolphins, I have a race to win (insert sarcasm emoji here).

While it is true that Proline 1088 is on the list of products with a copper leach rate above the new standard, it is the California Department of Pesticide Regulation that runs the show on this. This is one hull diver that won't cry when it's gone.

https://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/registration/reevaluation/chemicals/final_copper_afp_leachrate_list.pdf

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On 1/14/2019 at 8:36 PM, fstbttms said:

While it is true that Proline 1088 is on the list of products with a copper leach rate above the new standard, it is the California Department of Pesticide Regulation that runs the show on this. This is one hull diver that won't cry when it's gone.

https://www.cdpr.ca.gov/docs/registration/reevaluation/chemicals/final_copper_afp_leachrate_list.pdf

Hey Fastbottoms! What do you recommend I switch to? Since you're the one who scrubs it every couple of weeks, I figure you should get a vote. 

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9 hours ago, Wet Spreaders said:

Hey Fastbottoms! What do you recommend I switch to? Since you're the one who scrubs it every couple of weeks, I figure you should get a vote. 

I only ever recommend two anti fouling paint products- Pettit Trinidad (hard) and Interlux Micron 66 (hybrid ablative.) From a hull diver's standpoint, everything else runs a distant second at best, IMHO.

That said, I was kinda hoping you'd go with the Black Widow. I'd like more experience with it.

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5 hours ago, fstbttms said:

I only ever recommend two anti fouling paint products- Pettit Trinidad (hard) and Interlux Micron 66 (hybrid ablative.) From a hull diver's standpoint, everything else runs a distant second at best, IMHO.

That said, I was kinda hoping you'd go with the Black Widow. I'd like more experience with it.

Per the Black Widow instructions, you would be furloughed for a while.

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I am going to try BW on my rudders first. I have outboard rudders that get afternoon sun. they grow the most stuff  and will be my worst case for the test. they get scrubbed every month by the diver but need to be cleaned every week in the summer. the 1088  only  lasts about a year on the rudders but has lasted 3 years on the hull. can't use the 1088 again here in California so I am hoping the BW is a good replacement.

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1 hour ago, fucket said:

Per the Black Widow instructions, you would be furloughed for a while.

Bwhahahahaha! Umm... no. I'm well aware of Petit's maintenance recommendations but that's not how it works in the real world. Anti fouling paints (Black Widow included) do not eliminate fouling. Not even brand new paint and certainly not in California.

 

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11 hours ago, fucket said:

Per the Black Widow instructions, you would be furloughed for a while.

We're racing here, not cruising. I don't pay Fast to pry clams off my foils, he's using diaper-soft baby lamb ass fluff to polish a little slime to Hubble mirror perfection.

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Pettit’s maintenance recommendation (for all their paints, not just Black Widow) are predictably unrealistic- no cleaning for six months after splashing and a maximum of once every three months thereafter. Racing or not, in California this kind of cleaning frequency is a guarantee of a constantly foul bottom and the paint-removing abrasive scrubbing required to clean it. Relatively frequent, gentle cleaning is always the way to go, regardless of anti fouling paint product or boat usage.

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Yeah, sort of joking about the ridiculousness of their recommended schedule. It works OK here in Chicago, but we have cold water for half of our season and people are going to clean before regattas regardless of what any paint says.

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so after a year, how did BW do?  I just about finished sanding my bottom down to the barrier coat and need to decide which paint to put on this year. I was going to put VC Offshore on but am intrigued with BW

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On 1/18/2019 at 6:16 AM, fstbttms said:

Pettit’s maintenance recommendation (for all their paints, not just Black Widow) are predictably unrealistic- no cleaning for six months after splashing and a maximum of once every three months thereafter. Racing or not, in California...

Yeah, Pettit is deluded there. Here in Monterey cleaning the Micron 66 is monthly. 33 months now. It is perfect. Diver says it might last until next spring though it is a bit thin in a couple of places. Diver uses some super soft powered thing. It helps that it was applied professionally following the application and curing instructions exactly vs. 'Boatyard' slap and splash. 

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2 hours ago, El Boracho said:

Diver uses some super soft powered thing. 

 

matt with remora solo.jpg

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On 1/17/2019 at 10:42 AM, fstbttms said:

I only ever recommend two anti fouling paint products- Pettit Trinidad (hard) and Interlux Micron 66 (hybrid ablative.) From a hull diver's standpoint, everything else runs a distant second at best, IMHO.

this is very interesting. I asked a diver in the FL Keys, recommended the exact same thing. The Keys and Florida in general are in my experience extremely high fouling areas.

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14 hours ago, dacapo said:

so after a year, how did BW do?  I just about finished sanding my bottom down to the barrier coat and need to decide which paint to put on this year. I was going to put VC Offshore on but am intrigued with BW

For the past 4 or 5 years I have been using ePaint HP. It works well in my area but is has maintenance problems (see previous threads on ePaint performance). Last season I decided to give BW a try and stripped the keel and rudder. Applied two coats of BW. First coat went on really smooth but the second coat felt prickly to the hand. Burnished with 3M brown scrub pad on a da sander. Produced a smooth, polished surface.  

 
Performance wise the BW was much better than ePaint. When the ePaint had slime after three week the BW was clean. At the end of the season when the ePaint was getting small barnacles the BW had light slime. Last fall I stripped the rest of the bottom and will put on BW this spring.
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17 hours ago, dacapo said:

so after a year, how did BW do?  I just about finished sanding my bottom down to the barrier coat and need to decide which paint to put on this year. I was going to put VC Offshore on but am intrigued with BW

dacapo,

I just had the bottom cleaned after a winter of the boat sitting in the water in boston harbor. the diver said there was no hard growth except a few barnacles on the bottom of the keel that came right off. He said it was a very easy clean and everything looked to be in great shape. The last clean before this was in October when I put the boat away. Since getting boats hauled right now is difficult, I was pleased to hear how well the BW is holding up.

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On 1/17/2019 at 8:42 AM, fstbttms said:

I only ever recommend two anti fouling paint products- Pettit Trinidad (hard) and Interlux Micron 66 (hybrid ablative.)  [  .  .  .  ]

+1 for Trinidad, been using it on my boat for 30 years.  With monthly cleaning it lasts 5+ years around here.

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looks like i'll try BW this season now that my hull is nekked right now

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17 minutes ago, dacapo said:

looks like i'll try BW this season now that my hull is nekked right now

here's a little bit of free advice (most of which you already know, I'm sure). The paint is really thick in the can and is hard to get fully mixed. pour off some of the solvent and use a powered stirrer (carefully) to get it started, then add the pour-off back in. Don't try to get this can shaken, it will just dent the can and piss off the hardware store :)

one year I used foam rollers and could get about half the bottom before having to swap out. last time I used the shortest nap decent rollers I could find, and the paint went on well., just delint them first. wear a good quality cartridge mask - you can almost hear the brain cells dying if you don't. 

Once the paint is well-mixed, it goes on pretty mess-free. I use the roller on a stick except on the keel and at the waterline where I want a little more control.

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We use Black Widow, here in the Chesapeake with good results last season. Applied it last July, her with a diver hitting it about every two weeks until mid November.

The boat stayed in water over our very warm winter, and our diver said there was some hard growth on the bow. So that’s about 6 months with no cleaning. Getting hauled on Monday and I’ll see how it performed. But we already bought the paint, so its going on again for at least another season.

There’s at least one other boat racing here with BW. I am also aware of a dry sailed boat that used it for only a season before switching, though. It might perform better wet sailed.

 

 

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16 hours ago, Will1073 said:

I really want to see this product burnished up. Looking to possibly make a change from VC17

Depending on how much work you want to put into it:

DV2AYr2VQAA9U-V.jpg

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Trying to decide whether to go all out on the burnishing this time. Without knowing when/if races will happen, my motivation might fade after a couple nights of wet sanding.

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On 5/8/2020 at 7:39 PM, Will1073 said:

I really want to see this product burnished up. Looking to possibly make a change from VC17

Will, I chose BW originally because you can overcoat VC Offshore with just a good sanding. you have to remove all the VC17 to put BW on:

https://www.pettitpaint.com/media/4361/pettit-paint-compatibility-chart-2019.pdf

 

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No problem removing the existing VC17, I was aware of this. I would like to do a hard gloss bottom (like performance epoxy) but not have to haul and scrub in August. Fresh water 24 footer.

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On 1/18/2019 at 10:16 PM, fstbttms said:

Pettit’s maintenance recommendation (for all their paints, not just Black Widow) are predictably unrealistic- no cleaning for six months after splashing and a maximum of once every three months thereafter. Racing or not, in California this kind of cleaning frequency is a guarantee of a constantly foul bottom and the paint-removing abrasive scrubbing required to clean it. Relatively frequent, gentle cleaning is always the way to go, regardless of anti fouling paint product or boat usage.

Over the years, I have tried everything from Balltoplate to local stuff, and Mr. Fast Bottom is spot on. I have a diver wipe down both boats every Friday like clock work. 

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1 minute ago, George Hackett said:

...Mr. Fast Bottom is spot on.

Clearly you are an intelligent man of discerning taste.:D

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Having just gone through applying this to my bottom I will say this.

Unless you are prepared for A LOT of work burnishing don't do it.

Also be prepared to have a significant amount of paint buildup for the burnishing. This paint is going to show every imperfection in the undercoat,  so get your barrier coat (or what ever you are painting over) very smooth first, otherwise you will burn through a lot of expensive paint to get it right. Even after taking these precautions, we still had significant orange peel from rolling with a 1/8 nap roller and the paint reduced between 5-10% depending on the temp and humidity. We did not "roll and tip", but I would certainly roll and tip in the future to minimize this. We applied 4 coats to a 30 foot hull (about a gallon and a half) and after burnishing I still had some spots I had to touch up because we burnt through.

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34 minutes ago, Jubblies said:

Having just gone through applying this to my bottom I will say this.

Unless you are prepared for A LOT of work burnishing don't do it.

Also be prepared to have a significant amount of paint buildup for the burnishing. This paint is going to show every imperfection in the undercoat,  so get your barrier coat (or what ever you are painting over) very smooth first, otherwise you will burn through a lot of expensive paint to get it right. Even after taking these precautions, we still had significant orange peel from rolling with a 1/8 nap roller and the paint reduced between 5-10% depending on the temp and humidity. We did not "roll and tip", but I would certainly roll and tip in the future to minimize this. We applied 4 coats to a 30 foot hull (about a gallon and a half) and after burnishing I still had some spots I had to touch up because we burnt through.

Ditto

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use the hot dog rollers next time. you'll burn through a lot less paint.

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I have been using Wooster Red Feather roller covers with good effect. I can roll AwlGrip without tipping and get close to spray finish. I used them with Black Widow; the first coat went on really smooth, the second coat looked good but was prickly to the touch. Light sanding with 400 took care of that.

 
Anyone who has read Bethwaite's "High Performance Sailing" has to question the effectiveness of burnishing. A lot of work with no gain.

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6 hours ago, sailorman44 said:

I have been using Wooster Red Feather roller covers with good effect. I can roll AwlGrip without tipping and get close to spray finish. I used them with Black Widow; the first coat went on really smooth, the second coat looked good but was prickly to the touch. Light sanding with 400 took care of that.

 
Anyone who has read Bethwaite's "High Performance Sailing" has to question the effectiveness of burnishing. A lot of work with no gain.

I think it depends on the speed you're planning to go. The higher the speed, the finer the finish needs to be to minimize drag.

http://archive.rubicon-foundation.org/xmlui/bitstream/handle/123456789/3586/ADA424978.pdf?sequence=1

Page 33 is informative.

 

 

 

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On 1/17/2019 at 8:42 AM, fstbttms said:

I only ever recommend two anti fouling paint products- Pettit Trinidad (hard) and Interlux Micron 66 (hybrid ablative.) From a hull diver's standpoint, everything else runs a distant second at best, IMHO.

That said, I was kinda hoping you'd go with the Black Widow. I'd like more experience with it.

What's the difference between Micron 66 and Micron Extra?

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24 minutes ago, climenuts said:

What's the difference between Micron 66 and Micron Extra?

From a performance standpoint, Micron 66 is more durable and has much better anti fouling properties.

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30 minutes ago, fstbttms said:

From a performance standpoint, Micron 66 is more durable and has much better anti fouling properties.

I agree. Have used both in SF area.

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Can we get updates to how the Black Widow did now that boats are starting to get hauled?

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1 hour ago, Myouri said:

Can we get updates to how the Black Widow did now that boats are starting to get hauled?

mine is on its second season without haulout. The boat has been in boston harbor for two full seasons now. I cleaned the boat bottom on Friday before a saturday race. The bottom hadn't been cleaned for about 3 or 4 weeks. There was a fair amount of grass on the bow section on both sides that came off easily. The bottom had some slime but no hard growth. After two seasons of regular wipe downs and scrubbing, the paint has gotten thin where you expect it to - along the waterline and leading edges. 

Overall, I'm still super impressed. It's going to be very easy to prep the bottom this winter for new paint in the spring. 

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20 hours ago, ryley said:

mine is on its second season without haulout. The boat has been in boston harbor for two full seasons now. I cleaned the boat bottom on Friday before a saturday race. The bottom hadn't been cleaned for about 3 or 4 weeks. There was a fair amount of grass on the bow section on both sides that came off easily. The bottom had some slime but no hard growth. After two seasons of regular wipe downs and scrubbing, the paint has gotten thin where you expect it to - along the waterline and leading edges. 

Overall, I'm still super impressed. It's going to be very easy to prep the bottom this winter for new paint in the spring.

I'm in my first season with Black Widow. We just pulled the boat before our last regatta of the year to have the bottom cleaned and I have to say I was impressed.  There were a couple of small bare spots where we either didn't get good adhesion, or we got a little too thin when applying. We pull the boat before major events, so the pictures below represents about a month between cleanings on Lake Erie.

As far as performance, I cannot speak for just the Black Widow. We did too many things last year including taking the bottom all the way down to gel coat, long boarding the forward sections, templating the keel and rudder, and then finally the Black Widow.

We were blazing fast this year, especially upwind compared to years past. I'm sure the bottom paint had a small something to do with it, but I doubt it was the sole contributing factor. The long boarding and templating was definitely worth it.

 

119888676_1029753930820369_9218598964466571748_n.jpg

119892598_129152661909979_7942074935625481102_n.jpg

119917540_183181276587306_5599481352948916447_n.jpg

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