Enzedel92

March 31st 2019 - who’s boats will be ready?

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Nobody because the supplied arm/arm mechanism won't be.

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I think the arms will be ready as each boat is ready for arms??

My opinion.

Hence ETNZ, IENOS, AM, LR will be ready?? My guess !

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Ben is keen as mustard, clean cut, says sir...heaps of money. 

I say team Ben in the water first

 

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NZ is the first to see the light of a new day - so I say ETNZ will be first !

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Well if they really believe that simulators so very much replace/reduce the need for on the water testing, ETNZ will be in no hurry to splash.

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No I think they will be dead keen to test their simulator predictions feed some real data in so they can extend their projection with more confidence.

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3 hours ago, Kiwing said:

NZ is the first to see the light of a new day - so I say ETNZ will be first !

Looks like ETNZ might be late to the party.  I was hoping for an April launch and early trials.  Protocol permits nothing before end of March this year.  Duncan Johnstone's piece in Stuff yesterday talks about a mid-year launch.

https://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/other-sports/109709828/team-new-zealand-confirm-test-boat-build-and-crew-topup-among-priorities-for-2019-as-americas-cup-defence-builds  "The primary focus is the anticipated mid-year launch of their first version of the radical 75-foot foiling monohulls being introduced to the America's Cup. It will be the product of a nine-month build."

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LR should get their arms first so maybe them then?

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I'm going slightly out of the box and say that American Magic will be the 1st Team to launch their new AC 75.

Predictions

# 1) The 1st Boats will be significantly slower than the Final Boats to be raced in the CSS & AC Match.

# 2) The Malta Altus Challenge as well as the Dutch Team will not have their AC 75 ready for Racing in Cagliari and therefore may need an Exemption from the CoR Luna Rossa not to race in 2019.

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1 hour ago, Purple Headed Warrior said:

That is some foresight right there!!

Last year everyone learnt to put A4E on ignore and stop quoting them... I don't think them a new sock should change that...

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10 minutes ago, rh2600 said:

Last year everyone learnt to put A4E on ignore and stop quoting them... I don't think them a new sock should change that...

Go away you illegal NZ Immigrant.

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20 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Go away you illegal NZ Immigrant.

Grow up you ignorant little fuck. 

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4 hours ago, mad said:

Grow up you ignorant little fuck. 

DQS

Don't Quote the Sock

Made me open all the ignored to relish the shitfight

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18 hours ago, barfy said:

Ben is keen as mustard, clean cut, says sir...heaps of money. 

I say team Ben in the water first

 

I'm with you on this. Brits will be first to splash. Just my hunch.

No lack of funding. Established team with strong players.  Base developed and sorted. Early successes with trial boat yielding tons of data.  Launching into English spring wx.

And a lot to prove after Bermuda.

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First in the water means squat imo. Ineos launched the first surrogate, but compared to the Mule it's a crude effort, and likely producing lower quality data. ETNZ's plans to launch their surrogate after their first big boat could be an inspired idea, and quite typical of them doing things a bit different to the others.

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No where does it mention launching a surrogate after the first boat, only that it would inform the second boat

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1 hour ago, Horn Rock said:

First in the water means squat imo. Ineos launched the first surrogate, but compared to the Mule it's a crude effort, and likely producing lower quality data. ETNZ's plans to launch their surrogate after their first big boat could be an inspired idea, and quite typical of them doing things a bit different to the others.

I see, INEOS gets written off already because they launched a smaller test boat. Absolutely insane & hilarious. What do you think who you are? Knowing better than all these Sailors who have sailed all their lives? C'mon. Give me a break.

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9 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

What do you think who you are?

I know who I am. Who the fuck are you?

 

10 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Knowing better than all these Sailors who have sailed all their lives?

I've spent 40+ years on the water in a variety of boats from skiffs to keel boats, and power boats. Currently sailing a Farr 3.7 and an Elliott 7m, both quick boats in their respective sizes. I don't profess to be an expert, but I have some knowledge and experience having grown up on the Hauraki Gulf, and sailed elsewhere. I suspect I was sailing long before your old man regretted ever letting some of his swimmers get away. Anyway, it's all a bit rich coming from you, the ultimate armchair non expert, whose sailing knowledge seems to come entirely from browsing social media.

 

23 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

INEOS gets written off already because they launched a smaller test boat.

They rushed their test boat and it shows. AM took their time and built a better more polished surrogate. Plain to see from anyone who has even a partially informed eye. You don't, that's obvious. I'd expect ETNZ's test boat to be a considered effort as well.

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5 minutes ago, Horn Rock said:

They rushed their test boat and it shows. AM took their time and built a better more polished surrogate. Plain to see from anyone who has even a partially informed eye. You don't, that's obvious. I'd expect ETNZ's test boat to be a considered effort as well.

Just because they might have rushed their Test Boat doesn't mean that they have no chance or no clue at all as you claim. Your continued INEOS rants seem to come because of the bad experience they had in Bermuda which was if you look closely totally expected them being a 1st Time Challenger and having to start a Design Team from scratch. Then you ridiculously claim that their new Design Team is still the same as it BDA which obviously isn't the case at all. If it wasn't for Ratcliffe owning the Team now I might have supported them for AC 36.

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32 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Then you ridiculously claim that their new Design Team is still the same as it BDA which obviously isn't the case at all.

Quote me where I said anything like this?

33 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Your continued INEOS rants

What Ineos rants? You're making shit up again. 

36 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Just because they might have rushed their Test Boat doesn't mean that they have no chance or no clue at all as you claim.

Again, quote where I said they had no chance or no clue? I'll save you the effort, you can't, because I never said anything remotely like you contend. If you invented less bullshit, you might be taken more seriously around here......Okay that's crap.....you're never going to be taken seriously, but anyway.....drivel on......

 

41 minutes ago, dg_sailingfan said:

If it wasn't for Ratcliffe owning the Team now I might have supported them for AC 36.

I'm sure JR is mightily disappointed at not having support from A4E. In fact, I'd say he'd be losing a ton of sleep over it........ Rumour has it, that Ben is thinking of packing it in because of the lack of endorsement from you - such is the weight you carry in the sailing world.......

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9 hours ago, rh2600 said:

Last year everyone learnt to put A4E on ignore and stop quoting them... I don't think them a new sock should change that...

Can't the admins add a rule to the ignore filter that filters out quoted content from members already on the ignore list?

If that can't be done, then what's the point of the ignore function?

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4 hours ago, barfy said:

No where does it mention launching a surrogate after the first boat, only that it would inform the second boat

This is a *great* observation - and you are totally correct - the article only says both will come before the second boat.

The plot may indeed be thickening! :-) They may have had both AC75s and Mini-me's in the sim for all we know... 

They might even have good clones of the Goat and Mule in their sim too... *Another* reason why the tech is so interesting...

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1 hour ago, mrdobalina said:

If that can't be done, then what's the point of the ignore function?

Some people insist on having the last word with idiots. I used to ask them pretty please to halt but nobody ever did so now if they just cannot stop themselves, they just go onto ignore too.

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12 hours ago, dg_sailingfan said:

Grow up when he is continually harassing me? Nope.

Related image

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2 hours ago, dogwatch said:

Some people insist on having the last word with idiots. I used to ask them pretty please to halt but nobody ever did so now if they just cannot stop themselves, they just go onto ignore too.

Guess I need to put Needaclue on ignore then. They're the worst when it comes to quoting dg_sailingfan. 

Tornadocat is getting close to the ignore list also. 

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15 hours ago, rh2600 said:

This is a *great* observation - and you are totally correct - the article only says both will come before the second boat.

The plot may indeed be thickening! :-) They may have had both AC75s and Mini-me's in the sim for all we know... 

They might even have good clones of the Goat and Mule in their sim too... *Another* reason why the tech is so interesting...

For all we know they may be towing or sailing a surrogate right now on a secluded lake somewhere whilst boat 1 is being fitted.

They did it before and no one was the wiser.

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17 hours ago, mrdobalina said:

Can't the admins add a rule to the ignore filter that filters out quoted content from members already on the ignore list?

If that can't be done, then what's the point of the ignore function?

Can't you ask the admin to add a filter that only shows what you like ?

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29 minutes ago, barfy said:

For all we know they may be towing or sailing a surrogate right now on a secluded lake somewhere whilst boat 1 is being fitted.

They did it before and no one was the wiser.

;)

ETNZ have in-housed construction this time too... which a) permits even better secrecy and b) may mean they want to knock out a smaller boat as their first effort...

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New 75 hull been out of the mold for some time now, recall some news about it?

I'm sure Dalton still smarts from the report regards letting the cat out of the bag in 34, the late launch could have quite a bit to do with stealth, it worked last time.

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9 minutes ago, Kiwing said:

Red herrings galore !!! 

I know... brilliant isn't it! :P

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I don't think anyone is going to launch in March. I posted around 6 months ago that I thought the timeline was overly ambitious, and I think that seems to be playing out. Ben has stated that he's not launching till June/July. Idiot4ever could be right in that AM might launch first? LR has been very quiet on their launch plans. I think the boats from the big four will go in the water somewhere between June and September. Wouldn't surprise me if everything gets pushed back 6 months - which is no big deal for a complex new class - better to get things right than rush and have humongous fuck ups. Not that we won't probably see some major fuck ups as they get to grips with these new beasts.

As an aside, was about to go for a swim at my favourite spot at Belongil (Nth Byron), but we've had a fucking shark attack this morning, which kinda puts a dampener on those plans....... bastard sharks!!!!......Read here

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I think they will all be late and that Ben who was to first to sail a test boat will be the first with maxi frack. I don't even think the LR races will happen in 2019.

I think first AC75 will crash badly and need repairs.

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17 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I think first AC75 will crash badly and need repairs.

Just the first one TC? Reasonable chance that crashes might happen across the fleet I reckon. Whether it's a big deal remains to be seen.

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2 hours ago, Horn Rock said:

Just the first one TC? Reasonable chance that crashes might happen across the fleet I reckon. Whether it's a big deal remains to be seen.

Agreed, sorry for my english, I should have added "s". I also agree for the second part, it depends what they break.

As they are monohull the hull should be fine, the soft sail will have to be repaired, and they should have some spare mast. In fact 40 kts crashes may be mainly injure the crew, and that is difficult to replace. I'll have to have a look at the prot to know what the tell about spare crews.

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On 1/7/2019 at 12:49 PM, Horn Rock said:

I know who I am. Who the fuck are you?

 

I've spent 40+ years on the water in a variety of boats from skiffs to keel boats, and power boats. Currently sailing a Farr 3.7 and an Elliott 7m, both quick boats in their respective sizes. I don't profess to be an expert, but I have some knowledge and experience having grown up on the Hauraki Gulf, and sailed elsewhere. I suspect I was sailing long before your old man regretted ever letting some of his swimmers get away. Anyway, it's all a bit rich coming from you, the ultimate armchair non expert, whose sailing knowledge seems to come entirely from browsing social media.

  

They rushed their test boat and it shows. AM took their time and built a better more polished surrogate. Plain to see from anyone who has even a partially informed eye. You don't, that's obvious. I'd expect ETNZ's test boat to be a considered effort as well.

fuck me, another boomer is here

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You'll see a kiwi boat in June/July. The Viaduct Events Centre pits needs to be built so they can park and lift the boat out.

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Lurking about Stars & Stripes base tomm to pry some scuttlebutt out.  Loose lips and all.

Gotta think Sir Ben will splash first.   Prolly head up Thames with barges and Handel ‘Water Music’ for effect.

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No one will launch tomorrow. They've only just sent out the foil arms and canting systems. They still need to assemble them, test them and install them which i would assume would be a long process in itself. 

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I don't know if a boat is ready but I know none will be because the first 3 foils arms are sent too late. If the yanks had done the same thing we would hear from the same idiot fucking whiners.

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

the first 3 foils arms are sent too late.

Too late for what?

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1 hour ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't know if a boat is ready but I know none will be because the first 3 foils arms are sent too late. If the yanks had done the same thing we would hear from the same idiot fucking whiners.

"The Yanks" or the Aussies? If the yanks had done the same, we would have already had one CoR withdrawn, a class change and every team would be sponsored by Oracle. Yeah nah. 

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3 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

I don't know if a boat is ready but I know none will be because the first 3 foils arms are sent too late. If the yanks had done the same thing we would hear from the same idiot fucking whiners.

timing issue has always been for the foil verticals, not the foil arms. not sure the foil verts are ready yet.

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I can’t help but think even if I had everything ready when all the one design components arrive I’d still let one of the other teams click up 20-30 hours before I put my boat in the water. Let someone else triple check they work.

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1 hour ago, 17mika said:

timing issue has always been for the foil verticals, not the foil arms. not sure the foil verts are ready yet.

??

IIRC the rule uses the terms foil arms and foil wings.

As the foil wings are entirely up to the teams to design and build do you have (or expect to get) info from LR (for example) about their progress on these?

Presumably a team could control this aspect of the build to coincide with their launch .... and COR/D has been keeping them up to date about the foil arms.

"Your order of AC75 parts was dispatched today"

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On 1/5/2019 at 6:40 PM, NeedAClew said:

Nobody because the supplied arm/arm mechanism won't be.

You posted it on Jan 5 and you were right.

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6 hours ago, nav said:

COR/D has been keeping them (teams) up to date about the foil arms.

"Your order of AC75 parts was dispatched today"

Do you call this info "keeping up to date" ? :blink:

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2 hours ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Do you call this info "keeping up to date" ? :blink:

If you've been privvy to the correspondence between ETNZ and the challengers as well as transcripts from their visits down here during development please do share! :-)

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1 hour ago, rh2600 said:

If you've been privvy to the correspondence between ETNZ and the challengers as well as transcripts from their visits down here during development please do share! :-)

Why do you ask me when one of your compatriot pretends to know ? can't understand your logic.

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24 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

Why do you ask me when one of your compatriot pretends to know ? can't understand your logic.

Who is that?

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I am sticking my neck out and suggesting ETNZ will be first !!??

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By the way, what was shown to us were the foil canting system (FCS), not the foil arms. When will they be shipped ?

We were supposed to have the first ACWS event within the next 9 months, no boat is ready, a safe bet is it won't happen.

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32 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

By the way, what was shown to us were the foil canting system (FCS), not the foil arms. When will they be shipped ?

We were supposed to have the first ACWS event within the next 9 months, no boat is ready, a safe bet is it won't happen.

This is true - the (Persico) arms were the things that failed the strength test - no word on them yet from what I can tell?

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We can safely assume that TNZ gave information to the teams regarding first delivery dates, however there are other pending questions:

- if the arms are stronger they will most probably be heavier, how will that impact on the boat foiling capabilities ?

- were teams told the new weight ? at the same time TNZ got to know it ? or later ?

- what does American Magic think about that, knowing that they were able to manufacture their mule foil arm on time ?

- TNZ will test the new arm, dry test but perhaps also on a boat ? that would be unfair for the other teams.

- will the new arms be shipped to the same teams that received the FCS, or will the CoR/D will get it first ?

- who is responsible if an arm breaks during the AC match ? do they cancel the race or consider that the team pushed the arm too hard ?

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8 hours ago, Kiwing said:

I am sticking my neck out and suggesting ETNZ will be first !!??

I heard they installed their foil control system weeks ago. 

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Actually I can reveal that in an unexpected development ETNZ, Team Fracking, Team MAGA and Team Spacemen are all splashing today and moreover, there will be a regatta next week. In an attempt to help Team Dodgy Developers across the line, the location will be Ta' Xbiex.

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On 3/31/2019 at 6:03 PM, nav said:

??

IIRC the rule uses the terms foil arms and foil wings.

As the foil wings are entirely up to the teams to design and build do you have (or expect to get) info from LR (for example) about their progress on these?

Presumably a team could control this aspect of the build to coincide with their launch .... and COR/D has been keeping them up to date about the foil arms.

"Your order of AC75 parts was dispatched today"

Given their importance absolutely nobody wants their foils ready before the arms arrive, they will put as much design work in as humanly possible before construction begins and try and time it to within days of arm installation.

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On 3/30/2019 at 8:12 PM, blunderfull said:

Lurking about Stars & Stripes base tomm to pry some scuttlebutt out.  Loose lips and all.

Gotta think Sir Ben will splash first.   Prolly head up Thames with barges and Handel ‘Water Music’ for effect.

Well, the guys at the LBYC dock (RC for Ficker Cup) sez that S&S have a 45’ surprise that splashes, unfortunatly for me, today in “somewhere, Michigan”      They’re going with all their own gear till the “Arms” arrive.

”Bucko’s Beast” reportedly is 55 kts. straight out the box.

Check Bucko’s IG throughout the day for updates.

Cheers.

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1 hour ago, blunderfull said:

Bucko’s Beast” reportedly is 55 kts. straight out the box.

Ya. I see failgp has changed their tagline already on the site...."one of the worlds fastest boats"

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Shame, these guys missed the memo..

( + mule and FCS)

 

 

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As I understand it the foil arms will not be ready until much later in the year due to needing a bit of a redesign and more time being spent perfecting them and ensuring consistency. So they will probably all be sitting waiting for them to arrive and all launch around the same time later in the year. 

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Should have just raced in foiling IMOCAs. What a cluster....

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Who is doing the design work on the supplied parts? Seems that it must be sucking up some serious design/production hours. If it is TNZ then must be impinging on their work, but gives them an early insight. If independent, anyone know how the group and specs were worked out.

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39 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Who is doing the design work on the supplied parts? Seems that it must be sucking up some serious design/production hours. If it is TNZ then must be impinging on their work, but gives them an early insight. If independent, anyone know how the group and specs were worked out.

split between ETNZ, suppliers and Luna Rossa.  IIRC the parts they are admitting to having fucked up were being done by LR

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50 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

split between ETNZ, suppliers and Luna Rossa.  IIRC the parts they are admitting to having fucked up were being done by LR

So the one design bits are being done by three different groups. What a recipe for a complete clusterfuck. Who gets bent over the table and rogered senseless if they are late, break or just don’t work. 

 

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It was a mistake to have one design foil arms, the difference between the teams could have been more with the arm than the foil itself. Then we had the fuck up failure.

Now we have teams who are most probably in advance and and have to wait for slower ones because of a part they don't control, moreover, controlled by the CoR/D.

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2 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

It was a mistake to have one design foil arms, the difference between the teams could have been more with the arm than the foil itself. Then we had the fuck up failure.

Now we have teams who are most probably in advance and and have to wait for slower ones because of a part they don't control, moreover, controlled by the CoR/D.

It's a tricky one.. because if left to the teams (however few remain) and some manage to fuck it up, then they are out... leaving fewer teams in the event... if left to one -design, and it gets solved, then this criticality is removed from all teams... mean in this dimension at least they all get to remain...

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I think whilst it may result in a delay for some teams, it should ultimately result in more competitive/closer teams and thus closer racing...

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What would have TNZ said in AC34 if OR had said: "We supply the wings, we know you are ahead of the others with your boat but, as the wing failed the test, you will wait and be like the others, we will have closer racing, and it is also good for us defender" ?

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44 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

What would have TNZ said in AC34 if OR had said: "We supply the wings, we know you are ahead of the others with your boat but, as the wing failed the test, you will wait and be like the others, we will have closer racing, and it is also good for us defender" ?

You can make this less hypothetical...

Quote

What would have TNZ said in AC34 if OR had said: "We supply the hulls and decks, cross beams, and pods [as they did], we know you are ahead of the others with your boat but, as the cross-beams have failed the test, you will wait and be like the others"

This could have conceivably happened right?  What do you think TNZ would have said to that?

BTW - It was me noting that the racing would be closer, it is not a justification used by ETNZ/CoR...

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On 4/5/2019 at 9:59 AM, Tornado-Cat said:

It was a mistake to have one design foil arms, the difference between the teams could have been more with the arm than the foil itself. Then we had the fuck up failure.

Now we have teams who are most probably in advance and and have to wait for slower ones because of a part they don't control, moreover, controlled by the CoR/D.

I guess that depends on your objective.

They obviously went this route to attract more competitors givent he complexity of the new class.

With a totally open design class based on the AC75 we probably would have had just Luna Rossa and maybe BAR challenging and I supect it would have all fallen over and become DOG. 

Certainly ETNZ would have been near on unbeatable given the radicalness of it and having put a whole lot of leg work into the design just to come up with the rules.

The only real way they were going to attract any kind of numbers to the table was to say, here is the design, here is the data on it, here are the most dificult bits ready to go.

For what it's worth though, I am always in favour of less rules in the America's Cup, but then I am firmly in the show us the awesome tech you can build and this thing is mostly a design competition camp!

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11 hours ago, Boybland said:

I guess that depends on your objective.

They obviously went this route to attract more competitors givent he complexity of the new class.

With a totally open design class based on the AC75 we probably would have had just Luna Rossa and maybe BAR challenging and I supect it would have all fallen over and become DOG. 

Certainly ETNZ would have been near on unbeatable given the radicalness of it and having put a whole lot of leg work into the design just to come up with the rules.

The only real way they were going to attract any kind of numbers to the table was to say, here is the design, here is the data on it, here are the most dificult bits ready to go.

For what it's worth though, I am always in favour of less rules in the America's Cup, but then I am firmly in the show us the awesome tech you can build and this thing is mostly a design competition camp!

The objective is to diminish costs for non key parts of the boats, but these appear to be crucial.

As for who would have benefitted, we don't know, but Team NYYC are the only one clearly in advance regarding the size of the mule, and they are clearly penalized now.

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14 minutes ago, Tornado-Cat said:

The objective is to diminish costs for non key parts of the boats, but these appear to be crucial.

As for who would have benefitted, we don't know, but Team NYYC are the only one clearly in advance regarding the size of the mule, and they are clearly penalized now.

Yup, NYYC is penalized here indeed. The Brits will be too once they have their 1st AC 75 Race Boat ready to sail to some extend.

Methinks NYYC will be the 1st Challenger to have the new Boat ready to sail.

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On 1/5/2019 at 6:40 PM, NeedAClew said:

Nobody because the supplied arm/arm mechanism won't be.

Ok.  Looks like Ineos might launch a hull first, if that really is their boat. Would be fun for people to see a real AC Boat 1 at Cowes, have the Royals christen it, take away attention from the riff raff ,;)

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Wasn't someone suggesting Aug 10th for etnz? Shirley that would be a tough row for the Brits to hoe with the hull looking a bit bare.

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ETNZ have been doing secret show and don't tells for select people, you have got to figure that means they are close to dropping her in the water.

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Have the arms been delivered yet? I have seen conflicting info on whether they have or haven't.

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