soma

Over the horizon

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Hey all,

I'm gonna ask a question that's been asked a million times before so, for that, I apologize. Mer and I are planning to take our two boys and go sailing for a couple of years.We are looking at buying a sub-$500k catamaran. I'm used to sailing fast but I know I'll have to give up quite a bit of performance to fit a family of four on my budget. So we are looking for:

-Enough performance for someone with lots of miles on fast multis 

-seaworthy enough to go full circle 

-enough volume for a family of 4 plus occasional guests

-Good looks. Life is too short to own an ugly boat

-Not new, but not so old that we'll need to do a massive refit. There's nothing more expensive than a cheap boat  

-Not so big that it's a headache, but not so small that we'll hobby horse our way around (44-65ft)

So based on that, my frontrunners are:

 1. Nautitech 47/48 (+/-2005)

Pros: Good looks, good layout, simple and clean interior, cheap, nice moonroof

Cons: mini keels, pedestrian rig plan, low-end construction, (probably) bad performance 

2. Catana 47 (older +/-2000 era)

Pros: Daggerboards, more modern sail plan, proven bluewater cruiser, lots of light, decent performance

Cons: I've never loved the Catana aesthetic, busy/heavy interior, bridle mainsheet, no self-tacker 

3. Outremer 49 (new-Outremer era)

Pros: Daggerboards, modern rig plan, good performance, 

Cons: cost, build issues

4. Lagoon 55/57 (old old style, late 90's)

Pros: classic good looks, lots of volume, good layout

Cons: minikeels, heavy, older, costly

5. Avalon (Wormwood) 

Pros: boards, light, fast

Cons: tired, forgotten, small, was pretty in the late 90's but aesthetics haven't aged well. 

6. Chris White 55/57

Pros: quick, efficient, generally well-built

Cons: Cost, centerboards, cost

7. Dragonfly (Hughes 65)

pros: Big, cheap, boards

cons: big, cheap, definitely needs a major refit

8. Switch. I have a hard time getting excited by these but they're in my demographic...

Then there are crazy dreams, like buying Remade (ex-BQ Castorama) or some old racer. But...shade and protection and volume are important with kiddos. 

Any other designs I should consider? Diamonds in the rough? Considerations I'm not thinking of? Known issues with my frontrunners? 

Thanks in advance...

 

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You would probably come to love the AVALON. It took me a while on account of the aesthetics you mention which seemed dated right from the start but the boat still has a lot of potential. Keith Notary did a pretty major upgrade a couple of years ago, maybe get the inside scoop from him on what was done. You could have grabbed ALIEN and had a great boat but I know you are a cat guy. Best of luck to you and your family.

     See if the old OCCAMS RAZOR is still up in your neighborhood. There is a certain bluegrass band that plays at the Italian restaurant just down the street from you and I think the whole band are multihull guys. Ask Eric about the RAZOR. 

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I think you may want to consider the VPLP designed Aikane 56, if you can get a hand on one of the 3 ever build. One just finished the ARC (and the full circle), and may come up for sale (not sure though). The owners are great multihull sailors and took good care of their boat (met them in Mallorca this year).

 

 

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Aikane was the cat built in Trinidad, right? I saw the shop when they were just setting up to build those. Looked pretty advanced for the time.

    

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I know where a 57 Chris White is for 499k.

Or I will share a Maine cat 41 for 60k, If I can find a partner I can go sail my Antrim tri. 

 

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Yes, that is right, Rasputin. The design seems much ahead of its time, not sure why VPLP does not even list it on its website anymore...

It has a bit of a resemblance to "Magic Cat" for the hull lines, though the bridge deck has more of a lagoon look. Sportier though than the Lagoons, they were a close second to a 5X in the ARC (only double-handed, I think), and beat an Ocean Explorer, a 4X, lots of Lagoons and other cats.

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I like that Aikane. That wasn't on my radar yet. 

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Soma, I tried to contact you via PM but no luck (perhaps you have to many messages).

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35 minutes ago, tr1plet said:

Soma, I tried to contact you via PM but no luck (perhaps you have to many messages).

Should be sorted now...

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Really like Avalon and the price is right.. Might want to check out this Schionning G force 51. A bit above your budget but a very  nice modern boat.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2011/schionning-g-force-1550-3491792/?refSource=standard%20listing

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That's a tough call, you and your wife are very experienced multihull sailors.. that's pretty awesome.

You two probably want a design that sails very, very well, and very efficiently first, and then does everything else after that... 

You'll know the right one, after you've hands on looked at her, and sea trialed her.

Good luck, there's some very cool cats out there.

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Avalon... :swoon:

Not much more for me to say... I can't even afford to pay attention to this discussion.

Randii

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32 minutes ago, randii said:

Avalon... :swoon:

Not much more for me to say... I can't even afford to pay attention to this discussion.

Randii

The build story must be heard on Avalon

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Hey @soma - I am very sure you got this without our help but will offer a couple random thoughts for your consideration. 

  * How soon do you want to go and does a refit fit into that schedule and financials? Keep in mind the cash flow joys of keeping/maintaining a home while doing a major refit on a boat (that you can't move aboard while the refit is underway).

  * Why so much attention and care about aesthetics? Is it possible you will quickly find it doesn't matter to you at all and even that an older dated boat can have some positives (generates less unwanted interest and sends a different message than gold platers which can all be a good thing in many places)? 

 * Simple systems (you know I had to say that).

  * Mini keels are maybe (?) a positive on lesser performance orientated boats, though potentially (?) an issue and tripping hazard on better performers.

 * Range was not mentioned.  Depending on route around (going to Med... how getting there) there are some legs where range under motor will be a big deal

 *  Does resale matter to you? Something we think about a lot because our preferences diverge from the mainstream and our purchase was not going to be a forever boat.

* Do you care where it is to start?

Can't wait to hear what you end up with!

 

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Great questions. Thanks for jumping in. I know you've debated these same questions...

16 minutes ago, Wess said:

 * How soon do you want to go and does a refit fit into that schedule and financials? Keep in mind the cash flow joys of keeping/maintaining a home while doing a major refit on a boat (that you can't move aboard while the refit is underway).

Goal is living aboard within the year. Refits are kinda fun and inevitable based on my proclivities. I need lots of wind/solar, I love the ANTAL line driver traveler that I've done several times now, and I like lean aircon. We are Newport based until departure so we have time to refit, and the resources. Financially, we have to budget for the work obviously. The more expensive the boat, the less refit we can afford. 

Quote

  * Why so much attention and care about aesthetics? Is it possible you will quickly find it doesn't matter to you at all and even that an older dated boat can have some positives (generates less unwanted interest and sends a different message than gold platers which can all be a good thing in many places)? 

Call me shallow, but I have to love my boat's looks. There's a joy from looking out from shore thinking "that's my boat". My wife is sweet, intelligent, kind, generous, but also beautiful. I want the whole package in my boat, too. 

Quote

 * Simple systems (you know I had to say that).

Oh yeah. I think you think that you and I feel differently, but we are 100% on the same page. Maybe my patience for some systems is higher than yours, but I still like KISS

Quote

  * Mini keels are maybe (?) a positive on lesser performance orientated boats, though potentially (?) an issue and tripping hazard on better performers.

Yeah, if you're going upwind on a RTW trip you're doing it wrong. But...I don't like being beat. I like going fast. I need to see high teens (at minimum) for top boatspeed. We spent so much in time in the 20's that low teens is a snooze  

The Nautitech is my minikeel frontrunner and it's got great looks. Mer is more worried about performance than I am, but only because she knows I'll be bitching about a slow boat the whole way round. 

Quote

 * Range was not mentioned.  Depending on route around (going to Med... how getting there) there are some legs where range under motor will be a big deal

I believe in sailing. Im not worried about range. GB's aren't great in light wind (or range) but it's never been an issue for us. Low tom's and Jerry cans will be fine. 

Quote

 *  Does resale matter to you? Something we think about a lot because our preferences diverge from the mainstream and our purchase was not going to be a forever boat.

Concern about resale value of a used boat is a red herring. I'd never build a new, custom boat if I cared about resale  value. Once the first "sucker" has paid the depreciation I've found that all boats float downward more or less equally. There IS how liquid a boat is. A brand name attracts more attention.  But...there are 10 Outremer 49's on the market, 10 Nautitech 47's, 10 Catana 47's. So, though those brand/models may be more in demand, there are SO many on the market that it'd still take months and months (years and years?) to sell them. The only caveat, a company like Outremer is pumping out more and more boats every year. The older 49 will fade faster in value as the 51's replace them on the 2nd hand market. There's only one Avalon. 

Quote

* Do you care where it is to start?

Not really, but sorta. The closer to home the sooner we can start making it our own. There's a cherry Nautitech in Tahiti, but starting in Tahiti takes 1/2 the fun out of it. The goal would be to do 6 months in our neck of the woods, then doing a Caribbean highlight tour before really going. St. John, St. Barth's, Dominica, Grenada. Then gone  

 

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Got it @soma - But let me ask one question and and disagree on one point (though its clearly a personal opinion thing):

Question: You would know far better than me but a bunch of those boats you named don't meet your own criteria do they?  You said -  "I need to see high teens (at minimum) for top boatspeed. We spent so much in time in the 20's that low teens is a snooze" - but also said Lagoon and Nautitech and some others that don't seem conducive with that unless the stars align, no? 

Personal Opinion: My wife and I thought like you re aesthetics.  Yet we bought a boat we hated because it checked every other box.  We quickly came to love it.  If that is the only reason why you are passing on something I simply encourage you to give it another think.  Maybe its just me but we formed a "relationship" with a family cruising boat that we never did or would with a racing boat.  An emotional attachment.  But is based on function not form.  What she allowed our family to do.  And maybe its the redneck in me but it was also nice - I kinda think we were treated different and welcomed differently because we were not in a gold plater.  But very much a personal opinion thing.  I just remember how we used to feel same and how our thinking quickly shifted.

Oh and as an aside, not my cuppa and sounds too small for your tastes, but there is a Neel 45 up your way that they seem anxious to move.

 

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   I bought what I naively thought was a "Turn Key" St Francis 44 for the task you describe, except I was still working so it was "commute cruising" 

   After hauling for fresh bottom paint, servicing everything underwater and buying a new suit of performance sails we ran her down to the Bahamas (from NJ) and managed two winters cruising with one summer stored in Florida before bringing her home, hauling out and rebuilding about everything over a thirteen year period then re - launching the boat I thought I had bought in the first place!

   The restored version, complete with raised underwing and weighing the 16,000 pounds Angelo Livranos designed floats 5" higher than the "Turn Key" I bought and delivers everything I need, I like the boat a lot.

   The restoration took damn near as many hours (it was an off/on project) as building my 40' tri from scratch, over a four year period so given the $300,000+ cost it was a pretty stupid exercise.

    Fact is I don't see anything out there that I would swap her in for today. 

    I think she is about the minimum size to do the job but anything bigger is just more cost for initial purchase, operation and maintenance expenses.

    For cruising I would stay away from daggerboards. Low aspect keels with endplates perform well enough with a decent rig and the water tankage and sumps for bilge/grey water handling the keels provide plus the ability to beach the boat for whatever purpose well offset any performance loss.

    As I have said elsewhere if you are seeking exciting sailing I don't see cruising cats delivering the goods, safely and an equal payload trimaran that will excite, safely, is going to be way more money on all fronts.

    It's a tough wish list to fulfill and your selection will depend on which aspects you value most. This was my experience

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Question: You would know far better than me but a bunch of those boats you named don't meet your own criteria do they?  You said -  "I need to see high teens (at minimum) for top boatspeed. We spent so much in time in the 20's that low teens is a snooze" - but also said Lagoon and Nautitech and some others that don't seem conducive with that unless the stars align, no? 

I think everything I mentioned except the Lagoon and Nautitech will get me to high teens regularly. Catana and Outremer are probably next slowest but seem to be capable enough. We'd also get nicer/bigger sails and sail lighter than most sisterships. My bigger concern is leaning on one of these designs harder than most and breaking it more often than most.  

Quote

Personal Opinion: My wife and I thought like you re aesthetics.  Yet we bought a boat we hated because it checked every other box.  We quickly came to love it.  If that is the only reason why you are passing on something I simply encourage you to give it another think.  Maybe its just me but we formed a "relationship" with a family cruising boat that we never did or would with a racing boat.  An emotional attachment.  But is based on function not form.  What she allowed our family to do.  And maybe its the redneck in me but it was also nice - I kinda think we were treated different and welcomed differently because we were not in a gold plater.  But very much a personal opinion thing.  I just remember how we used to feel same and how our thinking quickly shifted.

Looks isn't my #1, but it'd be nice if I could have it. 

Quote

Oh and as an aside, not my cuppa and sounds too small for your tastes, but there is a Neel 45 up your way that they seem anxious to move.

Those Neels make me cringe. It might just be who introduced them to me originally (a serious muppet). 

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      Just tossing in my two-penneth - the aesthetics matter a lot to me too, just can't handle rowing away from my boat and wanting to throw up at her looks.

      Visiting a new Catana - way back when our boat was new (to us) and obviously flawed for our purposes - a tour of the rather clinical interior and the owners enthusiastic sharing of the issues he had dealt with together with the appearance as we rowed away encouraged the subsequent horrendous rehab of our St Francis.

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Sorry guys, take AVALON off your list forever. It is a soggy mess. A client took me to look at it, we had Notary present to attempt to answer questions. Visual & THERMAL SURVEY REVEAL major flexing of the bridgedeck. Expanding cracks along lower edges, compression ridges along upper areas. Notary's fixes were partial & just moved failure points further out. Large delam on top of cabin. Boat has been sitting uncared for in F L and all interior was dripping wet. Saildrives were corroded almost entirely away, owner spent 60K putting in new engines/drives then raised the price 100k. Mast is salvaged from a larger cat, needs all new rigging. Longeron/striker has some suspect structure & needs paint. One d/board shows cracking via themal, different tip profiles on each board. Build stories - we were told things went waay over budget & end jobs were poor. Some of these can easily be seen - almost all cutouts thru the cored laminates are not capped.

We had a plan of taking it to Trini & having a major go at it, but would have had to buy the boat about 150K to make it happen under final cost ceiling of 400k. The Italian owner will not bargain.

This client is looking for a cat with very similar parameters. One thing we found after going to Trini to look at a boat is most of the racer/cruiser out that have sexy looking blister houses don't have enuff headroom to get down into the hulls easily (client is 6'3"). 

 

 

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5 minutes ago, longy said:

Sorry guys, take AVALON off your list forever. It is a soggy mess. A client took me to look at it, we had Notary present to attempt to answer questions. Visual & THERMAL SURVEY REVEAL major flexing of the bridgedeck. Expanding cracks along lower edges, compression ridges along upper areas. Notary's fixes were partial & just moved failure points further out. Large delam on top of cabin. Boat has been sitting uncared for in F L and all interior was dripping wet. Saildrives were corroded almost entirely away, owner spent 60K putting in new engines/drives then raised the price 100k. Mast is salvaged from a larger cat, needs all new rigging. Longeron/striker has some suspect structure & needs paint. One d/board shows cracking via themal, different tip profiles on each board. Build stories - we were told things went waay over budget & end jobs were poor. Some of these can easily be seen - almost all cutouts thru the cored laminates are not capped.

We had a plan of taking it to Trini & having a major go at it, but would have had to buy the boat about 150K to make it happen under final cost ceiling of 400k. The Italian owner will not bargain.

This client is looking for a cat with very similar parameters. One thing we found after going to Trini to look at a boat is most of the racer/cruiser out that have sexy looking blister houses don't have enuff headroom to get down into the hulls easily (client is 6'3"). 

 

 

PM me for more

There ya go. Dropping knowledge! Thank you!

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4 minutes ago, soma said:

There ya go. Dropping knowledge! Thank you!

There is a lot of stories like this, good for you to share, shame on the broker

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  Clarification : Notary wanted to do proper repairs, but owner refused to spend enuff to achieve that.

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That Marc Pinta 55' would be interesting at $150k, but they're asking $520k! The promo video makes my eyes hurt. 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/catamaran-marc-pinta-pastorale-3480685/

 

Some owners certainly have inflated ideas of their boat's worth. Like Dragonfly. I remember when that boat was new. At $250k it's not outrageously overpriced, but it's on the wrong side of a $250k+ refit. Mid-$100k would be a decent price for her, too. 

I actually emailed the Remade (B&Q) guy to see if he'd sell. No response. I don't know how it'd make sense...but still asked. 

A tri would give me the speed but not the space. Once you get used to two hulls and bridgedeck living it's hard to live fore/aft and belowdecks. I like the boys having one hull and the 'rents having their own. 

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Its a pretty tough ask for a turn key ready to RTW cruise 50 foot plus cat that can do 20 knots, be comfortable for family of 4 and be sailed and maintained by ma and pa... all for less than 500K all in @soma.  But it does sound like a very familiar quest LOL.  Call it the "Holy Grail" if you do find it and never let go!!

I was going to ask if you would do a tri.  I love em (and obviously just bought one) but not for this (your) mission.  If you are open to the idea, there is a Chris While 54 Hammerhead headed back to the west coast for eventual sale.  But its an 80s boat if I recall and so guessing will need lots of work.  Juniper 2 has been out there for sale for a long time too.  East coast based and they gotta be willing to get real if they want to move it.

Good luck.  Can't wait to see/hear what you guys decide on. 

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51 minutes ago, soma said:

That Marc Pinta 55' would be interesting at $150k, but they're asking $520k! The promo video makes my eyes hurt. 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1988/catamaran-marc-pinta-pastorale-3480685/

Sounds well maintained:

Quote

Her current owner of 5 years, has been intimately involved in the marine industry for the past 40 years, both the captaining of large high end sailing vessels, as well as project managing and consulting on construction and refits. During his ownership of Pan, he has fastidiously and repeatedly gone over every inch of Pan, to ensure that all systems are operating at their peak.  Wiring is top quality military spec, sea cocks are recent Marelon, bilges are bone dry and there is a workshop/technical room second to none, filled with tools of all kinds and spares too numerous to list!

Nice big blue water catamaran, internal systems look extensive and complex.  30 years old....  How much work does it need?  Not a bad price.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVi6bDEA8aY

6902396_20181107124021014_1_XLARGE.jpg.abd8d433c424acefb7dafd712fd0fc46.jpg

6902396_20181107124015297_1_XLARGE.jpg.56cc9dac28ef96db7956ef62b86d1df0.jpg

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A top shelf windsurf Gran Prix boardbuilder(back in the day) named Berky (nickname) down in the Keys built a nice catamaran (55') that he cruised with his wife and 2 kids. Nice looking boat (made me think of a Lagoon 55 but with daggers) and light and fast but I can't remember the name. Dave Calvert would probably know. I just put in a phone call about the sailing cat but probably won't hear back on a Sunday. I'll let you know if I hear something.

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   Notary tried very hard to get us to look at that boat. We declined, don't remember the details. Can research if you want. Only one d/board.

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Shuttleworth makes a good case for a single daggerboard if the boat is intended to be a fast cruiser. Way better than two stubby keels and only a slight loss over twin daggerboards. And unless you raise and lower the twin daggerboards on each tack the loss to a slightly larger single board is even less. What ever happened to the cat that Notary spend ages building? 

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46 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Shuttleworth makes a good case for a single daggerboard if the boat is intended to be a fast cruiser. Way better than two stubby keels and only a slight loss over twin daggerboards. And unless you raise and lower the twin daggerboards on each tack the loss to a slightly larger single board is even less. What ever happened to the cat that Notary spend ages building? 

Second board case installed, glassed over.

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Nils,

    Just got off the phone with the builder of the cat and he confirms what longy just posted about the second board case glassed over and said that could be restored. I'm getting a survey/spec list from his and will introduce you two this coming week. Boat is 60' and he has been going back and forth over selling for the last 10 years. He is replacing helm units and other mechanical items (watermaker pump) and went for a sail with Notary in the last couple of weeks. I'll contact you on email.

 

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33 minutes ago, soma said:

That was a super cool cat. I was aboard a long time ago and loved it. Last time I saw it advertised it was WAY overpriced. Looks like it’s still too much. 

 https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2011/custom-catamaran-3081257/

Thats what 15 years of shop rent can do on such a project! It reminds me of the way ahead of its time Australian cat STRATOSPHERE.

Think that this is near sister SUNDREAMER

Image result for sailing catamaran STRATOSPHERE

sundreamer3.jpg

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IIRC a few other things - one engine almost twice the hp as the other, lots of stuff powered by it. Long transoms that were awash??

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1 hour ago, ProaSailor said:

Sounds well maintained:

Nice big blue water catamaran, internal systems look extensive and complex.  30 years old....  How much work does it need?  Not a bad price.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wVi6bDEA8aY

6902396_20181107124021014_1_XLARGE.jpg.abd8d433c424acefb7dafd712fd0fc46.jpg

6902396_20181107124015297_1_XLARGE.jpg.56cc9dac28ef96db7956ef62b86d1df0.jpg

I watched that video to the end and I have to admit it's a great interior. The blown out main, 80's vintage deck gear, and crosscut Dacron jib turned me off in the first 30 secs. It's a cool boat.

$225k and I'd be interested...

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That Notary 64 at 1.4mil seems like a reasonable price; a new HH 66 is 3.8 and that’s not final fit out, I bet closer to 5mil complete and a lot heavier?

I could cruise the world in an Outremer 4X but good luck finding one under $700k. I don’t know the construction details.

$225k for a well maintained 55’ bluewater performance cat seems a bit off the mark; the rig, motors and sails alone are close to that value no?

I haven’t seen a Chris White Atlantic go for much less than a million and the fit and finish matches. I don’t like the galley down layout inshore but offshore it makes sense.

What about Fountaine Pajot 46? A friend of mine who raced performance multis bought one and moved aboard full time...speeds in the high teens possible, not 20’s but it is there house and much closer to your budget?

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Hi Nils

Obviously a Dazcat if you can find one...... but an Eric le Rouge Freydis may be worth a look - it is the grown up Azuli. And whilst they dont have boards the Azuli is not slow for a 38 foot cruiser  - there is one that does MOCRA races called Addonante so you can have a look at her TCF compared to others

Dazcat 1150 1.218, Dazcat 1195 1.176, Grainger 27 Tri 1.241. Dazcat 1495 1.25   Azuli 1.118  

. We offered on a Freydis before we bought the Dazcat.

But whatever you get will be a compromise so enjoy choosing........  

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18 minutes ago, samc99us said:

That Notary 64 at 1.4mil seems like a reasonable price; a new HH 66 is 3.8 and that’s not final fit out, I bet closer to 5mil complete and a lot heavier?

That's not apples to apples, that's not even apples to grapes. The Notary 64 is cool...at 1/10th the cost. The HH is dope AF. I'd take Paradox at $1m or Finn at $1.2m ANYDAY before the Notary. Or a 5x for $1.2m. Or a Catana 58 for $600k. 

18 minutes ago, samc99us said:

I could cruise the world in an Outremer 4X but good luck finding one under $700k. I don’t know the construction details.

4x, yeah, not for $700k. But there are ten Outremer 49's at <$700k. Carbon rigs, good equipment. Still, for me, $600k+ means we don't have money to cruise for long. 

18 minutes ago, samc99us said:

$225k for a well maintained 55’ bluewater performance cat seems a bit off the mark; the rig, motors and sails alone are close to that value no?

Agreed, but that cat at $225k would still need $100k minimum to get going (for me). That rig would be free.99. Those sails are trash. 

18 minutes ago, samc99us said:

I haven’t seen a Chris White Atlantic go for much less than a million and the fit and finish matches. I don’t like the galley down layout inshore but offshore it makes sense.

There are a couple of CW55/57's well under $1m. But...like the Outremer, still a little out of reach. Which is a shame, because my tastes richer than my bank account. If I could get above $500k I have choices that would sit well. It'd be a toss-up between the Outremer 49 and the Chris White 55. 

18 minutes ago, samc99us said:

What about Fountaine Pajot 46? A friend of mine who raced performance multis bought one and moved aboard full time...speeds in the high teens possible, not 20’s but it is there house and much closer to your budget?

I know in the back of my head that FP has options for me, but I'm haunted by the rest of the range. For some reason, I can forgive the Lagoon 57 despite its newer brethren, but not the FP range. 

On that note, the Privledge range has huge volume, good looks, but I struggle to get past the brand image. And the heavy, slow performance. 

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12 minutes ago, Bruce Sutherland said:

Hi Nils

Obviously a Dazcat if you can find one...... but an Eric le Rouge Freydis may be worth a look - it is the grown up Azuli. And whilst they dont have boards the Azuli is not slow for a 38 foot cruiser  - there is one that does MOCRA races called Addonante so you can have a look at her TCF compared to others

Dazcat 1150 1.218, Dazcat 1195 1.176, Grainger 27 Tri 1.241. Dazcat 1495 1.25   Azuli 1.118  

. We offered on a Freydis before we bought the Dazcat.

But whatever you get will be a compromise so enjoy choosing........  

I took a pass on a Freydis 49 for $20k after Irma. I was still at Gunboat, my Mom was dying, my boat was trashed, and our house was damaged. It just felt like too much was going on to make a move. Haunts me!!! I even had a free Hall Spars mast to put on it!!! I hear the buyers fixed it up and they're off and running. 

Btw-funniest story I've seen is the hippies that bought Mala Conducta (basically a Gunboat 62 built by Lyman Morse). Free would've been too much for that boat. I just hope it doesn't end up in a helicopter trip home for anyone. That boat was more beautiful than any Gunboat before the fire that totaled it. 

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Why did Mala have such cost overuns? I thought she was lovely but a huge disappointment in so many ways. What was the screwup on the rudders? Designed to fail? She has sold since the fire?!

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21 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

Why did Mala have such cost overuns? I thought she was lovely but a huge disappointment in so many ways. What was the screwup on the rudders? Designed to fail? She has sold since the fire?!

I think her overruns were mainly because she was undersold. 65,000 hours@$60/hr, plus BOM, plus design, and a PM.  It was never going to be $3m or whatever it was intended to cost. Plus some mission creep and you’re up to $5M+ in a heartbeat. There is no path to building a great cat in an expensive labor market for “sane” money. 

Rudders? I chalk that up to bleeding edge technology. Gunboats suffered dozens of broken rudders before the engineers could design something that held up. Mala has transom hung cassettes. That was new to that platform/size range. 

Some hippies bought her and are living the dream. I hear the fire damage was so bad you could push your fingers through the main bulkhead. All the resin is gone. From shoulder-height down she was a dream. It’s the top half that you have to worry about! You could do a modern Captain Ron about her. “She’s got some dry rot. Good news? It’s all above the waterline!”

https://www.facebook.com/Ocean.Nomad/

 

 

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5 minutes ago, soma said:

I think her overruns were mainly because she was undersold. 65,000 hours@$60/hr, plus BOM, plus design, and a PM.  It was never going to be $3m or whatever it was intended to cost. Plus some mission creep and you’re up to $5M+ in a heartbeat. There is no path to building a great cat in an expensive labor market for “sane” money. 

Rudders? I chalk that up to bleeding edge technology. Gunboats suffered dozens of broken rudders before the engineers could design something that held up. Mala has transom hung cassettes. 

Some hippies bought her and are living the dream. I hear the fire damage was so bad you could push your fingers through the main bulkhead. All the resin is gone. From shoulder-height down she was a dream. It’s the top half that you have to worry about!

https://www.facebook.com/Ocean.Nomad/

 

 

So I shouldn't join the crew?

image.png.14d45e0e1a636dbedb39a11e9d8a4e6d.png

 

Thanks SOMA, 

    Looks pretty grim.

No photo description available.

Nothing that some Hippie Chicks can't fix though...

Image may contain: 1 person, closeup

 

     Well if it wasn't carbon fiber before, it is now! 

Image may contain: one or more people and outdoor

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3 minutes ago, Rasputin22 said:

So I shouldn't join the crew?

image.png.14d45e0e1a636dbedb39a11e9d8a4e6d.png

Ha. That was 6 weeks ago. I’m so curious what happened! Go along so I can get the scoop!! Just bring a PFD and a personal EPIRB!

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Lerouge/Freydis. Looping also would fit your specs. And why not earlier outremer 55 light or standard?

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3 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Thats what 15 years of shop rent can do on such a project! It reminds me of the way ahead of its time Australian cat STRATOSPHERE.

Think that this is near sister SUNDREAMER

Image result for sailing catamaran STRATOSPHERE

sundreamer3.jpg

Hey Soma, you could probably get Stratosphere for free. She’s been sitting amongst scrub and coral rubble on the west coast of Christmas Island (Kiribati) for about 35 years now! I tracked her down in 2016/17 while I spent cyclone season there. She needs a lot of work!! I’ve got heaps of photos which I would like to post for those interested. Anybody know an easy way to condense my photos to less than 10mb’s.(I’m very computer illiterate)  Ps, definitely not worth rescuing!

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5508 would be perfect, wrong price range? 

Schionning cats seem like the answer, Australia too far?

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4 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

5508 would be perfect, wrong price range? 

Schionning cats seem like the answer, Australia too far?

5508 is my current dream boat! But, sadly, out of my price range. 

Schionnings are dope. Not too many under $500k and a long way to go for a seatrial, though. They pop up from time to time this part of the world,  though. Lots use balsa which is a deal breaker for me. I've seen too much wet balsa. It's like wet cardboard. 

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Go for the Lagoon. Doubt you’d miss the daggerboards once you got used to it. Plus, much simpler and cheaper. 

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I would go as big as possible. Diference in comfort between 50 and 60' is surprising.

I can not see any production boats that would perform anywhere near an acceptable level simply due to their construction methods.

I think there was a Hurt Hughes 65 for sale "Dragonfly" which may do the job perfectly.(if it is structurally OK)

There is a 65" boat "Augustina" sitting abandoned in Aus which has nice hulls and not much else. You could cut it up, move it and your family to Thailand or wherever and build a new boat. (all part of the experience of life) 

Do not be concerned about fixed keels, I believe they are a cruising benefit, (protect rudders and saildrives). and part of the cruising lifestyle is being patient and waiting for the correct wind!!

Agree with Balsa, cedar is probably the best IMHO.

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1 hour ago, bushsailor said:

I would go as big as possible. Diference in comfort between 50 and 60' is surprising.

I can not see any production boats that would perform anywhere near an acceptable level simply due to their construction methods.

I think there was a Hurt Hughes 65 for sale "Dragonfly" which may do the job perfectly.(if it is structurally OK)

There is a 65" boat "Augustina" sitting abandoned in Aus which has nice hulls and not much else. You could cut it up, move it and your family to Thailand or wherever and build a new boat. (all part of the experience of life) 

Do not be concerned about fixed keels, I believe they are a cruising benefit, (protect rudders and saildrives). and part of the cruising lifestyle is being patient and waiting for the correct wind!!

Agree with Balsa, cedar is probably the best IMHO.

Hearing the name “Augustina” brings back memories, I am sure this is the same Cat that was built on an apple orchard near Nelson in NZ by a young American man from Martha’s Vineyard with a French wife and a young son. He built everything including the mast in composite with foam core but looked heavy, finish was less than fair and he painted everything in Matt to satin finish paint by roller. I got to see a lot of it as he purchased the engines from me. Think of a large pod cat with all controls in the cabin to a large winch, including the steering wheel from a Mack truck although he could tiller steer it. It put me off attempting to build a Cat myself. It wasn’t satisfying to the eye but he was living his dream, not sure where the $ came from but probably well off parents. Saw it for sale some time ago for a ridiculous price and then it disappeared. Not what Soma needs I would suggest.

 

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I was aboard Avalon in Nantucket when she new right after I hauled my cat to rebuild her. Had recently put a 6’ taller carbon mast on Skateaway so I was the owner of a hot 40’ Tri, in great shape, and a 44’ cruising Cat with great potential.

Avalon was already for sale and a broker, aboard at the time, tried hard to convince me to sell my two boats and roll the investment into Avalon which he told me would have Skateaway’s performance and the St Francis accommodation.

 I saw a number of structural issues even though she was new but really, as a cruising boat for my wife and two young kids she was just way too big, no way would I be able to handle and properly maintain her without resorting to professional help at huge expense. From a performance standpoint she may have been similar but no way near as much fun.

So now I have two perfect turn key, manageable boats each better suited to my needs in their specific categories. Both equipped with the best, new, sails and equipment available. One was built right, the other was rebuilt right and both are manageable both financially and physically from a maintenance standpoint.

Horses for courses!

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1 hour ago, boardhead said:

manageable both financially and physically from a maintenance standpoint.

+1000

this is so important

(Not related to soma, he knows what he's doing)

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Soma — what do you recon your share of time between at anchor and under way will be?

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It seems like you have your priorities in order, Soma and I'll bet you find what you need. I agree with the sentiment that a custom or home-built boat could offer much more for the money. I always picture a trimaran when I think about long-distance sailing, but that's more about what I know and love. Catamarans are what you know best, but you might enjoy sailing a trimaran more. Plus there are the benefits of having somewhere to attach the headstay, one daggerboard, one rudder, and one engine. Someone mentioned the Hammerhead 54. I have never sailed on one, but I admire the design. It seems that if you could find the right trimaran, you could get a lot more boat for the money than with a catamaran.

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1 hour ago, EarthBM said:

Soma — what do you recon your share of time between at anchor and under way will be?

It's 90% at anchor. Maybe you do 10,000 miles/year (hopefully less!). 10,000 miles/year is roughly what we averaged on Zenyatta, GB6203.  10,000 miles @ 8 knots is 1250 hours. That's 52 days. One day per week underway on average. That's not much.

Which makes a strong argument that interior ergonomics and comfort count for a lot. But...I like sailing. I like sailing to feel fun. 

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1 hour ago, Russell Brown said:

It seems like you have your priorities in order, Soma and I'll bet you find what you need. I agree with the sentiment that a custom or home-built boat could offer much more for the money. I always picture a trimaran when I think about long-distance sailing, but that's more about what I know and love. Catamarans are what you know best, but you might enjoy sailing a trimaran more. Plus there are the benefits of having somewhere to attach the headstay, one daggerboard, one rudder, and one engine. Someone mentioned the Hammerhead 54. I have never sailed on one, but I admire the design. It seems that if you could find the right trimaran, you could get a lot more boat for the money than with a catamaran.

I mentioned the Hammerhead but not sure I would do it for this mission.  And I own and have owned trimarans so I am a fan.  But we have also owned and sailed offshore cats. The tri has a more seakindly motion, is more fun to sail and has more feel/responsiveness (IMHO,) and few systems (as you noted), and if you like to push I think its a bit safer... but it also has less volume which can be a big deal for a family of 4, lower payload carrying ability, less system redundancy (that second engine, rudder of board can come in handy), and its hard for folks to get this until they have done it, but I have yet to see a trimaran do the bridge-deck living thing the way a cat does. That is such a plus be it at sea, underway, or in the harbor.  Its hard to beat the social and sailing aspects of bridge-deck living.

26 minutes ago, tofi33 said:

Interesting.  Less than ideal location to start a cruise though.

Hey @soma- I am curious.  Did Zenyatta go round the marble or was that most downwind trades cruising and what % of those 52 days (or 10,000 nm) were under power?

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There is 2016 built 52' Owner's version aluminum cat in Thailand (+built there) @ reduced asking $460k. Appears to be rather good choice for a family sailing as well as moneywise..

https://www.multihullsolutions.com.au/boats/pre-owned/sail-multihulls/2016-oceanic-52-shaman/

Good luck! 

 

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20 hours ago, soma said:

Put a coachroof on this?!? Brilliant! Like the Novara but bigger! (Wife may object)

 

 

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1984/multiplast-74-racing-3074849/?refSource=enhanced listing

IMG_5557.PNG

I hate this thread.  It makes me look at stuff after we just bought a new to us boat.  But above listing prompted a question for the peanut gallery.

While I am sure that anyone owning and sailing that thing has tons more experience and insight than I do... am I missing something or are the liferafts secured in about the worst place you could put them (other than below)?  Or maybe the assumption is once flipped you are cutting away the net (now) above them??

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I boat by this F boat a few times a month in Hampton VA. Been on the market awhile now, no affiliation/idea about it other than that there was a discussion on the F boat forum that is still overpriced at 250k because of the fitout. I could look at it more closely and attempt to answer specific questions if you were interested. 

FE994891-07AA-407F-B5FF-B0ED70AE4EF1.jpeg

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Hey @soma- I am curious.  Did Zenyatta go round the marble or was that most downwind trades cruising and what % of those 52 days (or 10,000 nm) were under power?

1

That was Caribbean/NE x 5 and Caribbean/Med/Caribbean, with lots of incidental cruising in between. We did about 70,000 miles on her. As far as time under power, on passages I'd guess 10%.

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LeRouge 470 in Martinique looks like it might fit the bill

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1 hour ago, soma said:

That was Caribbean/NE x 5 and Caribbean/Med/Caribbean, with lots of incidental cruising in between. We did about 70,000 miles on her. As far as time under power, on passages I'd guess 10%.

What do you think that % would be if going around? 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

I have yet to see a trimaran do the bridge-deck living thing the way a cat does. That is such a plus be it at sea, underway, or in the harbor.  Its hard to beat the social and sailing aspects of bridge-deck living.

Standing headroom on a bridge deck with three feet clearance below it (rare but ideal offshore, never mentioned in specs) means an "air height" of ten feet or more.  Trimarans keep it lower with headroom only in the main hull.  Less drag, other benefits mentioned by Russell including performance, but less accommodation space for length...

Cats like those mentioned above, the Morrelli & Melvin 52 and the Schionning 16.20, manage to hide this ~10' roof height pretty well in ~53' or more of boat length, with awesome interior accommodation spaces.  Wow, either of these would be nice.

6911263_20181114153505858_1_XLARGE.jpg.48e259644084a854aa6be6a499010e1c.jpg

6948870_20190105050255282_9_XLARGE.jpg.0aed11ca73ccebf27f2ce93e53d82114.jpg

Great galley-up on the MM52, starboard aft:  (Interior steering only?)

6911263_20181114153630360_1_XLARGE.jpg.be88c51601177b81515a235e92ba9208.jpg

6911263_20181114153737411_1_XLARGE.jpg.a40bc1dba96946b889eedbb5268292e3.jpg

Super nice galley-up on the Schionning, port forward:  (No interior steering?)

6948870_20190105050031500_6_XLARGE.jpg.1cd584909898a0aed782c085651a2b9c.jpg

6948870_20190105050031796_4_XLARGE.jpg.229472e003f5f97c8a90c0ec6467c79c.jpg

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6 hours ago, Geese said:

I boat by this F boat a few times a month in Hampton VA. Been on the market awhile now, no affiliation/idea about it other than that there was a discussion on the F boat forum that is still overpriced at 250k because of the fitout. I could look at it more closely and attempt to answer specific questions if you were interested. 

FE994891-07AA-407F-B5FF-B0ED70AE4EF1.jpeg

I took a look at this F-boat. It has some serious workmanship issues. It looks like the interior was diy. There are gaping holes in the transoms for the rudder linkages, the daggerboards look like they were faired by a 10 year old etc... Based on those kind of details I was worried about all of the major things that you can’t see in 30min walkthrough of the boat

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Lots of amazing boats on this thread. For me the new outremer 45 tics a lot of boxes.

Balance cats also seem like a lot of boat for the money. If the build quality is good?

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Maybe not for those who like to follow the herd, but it has many of the benefits of both cats and tris,  plus a few others.

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

We are looking at buying a sub-$500k catamaran. I'm used to sailing fast but I know I'll have to give up quite a bit of performance to fit a family of four on my budget. 

Maybe.  Fast is about length, weight and sail area.  The C60 http://harryproa.com/?p=1747 is 18m/60' long, weighs 7 tons/tonnes (3 of which are payload) and standard rig sail area is 130 sq m/1,000 sq'.   

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

-Enough performance for someone with lots of miles on fast multis 

Performance gained by constant trimming, tuning and hoisting/lowering sails is not most people's idea of cruising.   The C60 has no extras, foredeck work,  rig maintenance/tuning or white knuckle sailing.  And no need to reduce sail at night, 'just in case'.

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

-seaworthy enough to go full circle 

The biggest cause of 'seaworthy' issues is crew tiredness.  If the crew are sheltered, unstressed, don't have to fight sails at 2 am in a rain squall and have a comfortable bunk in a boat with a pleasant motion, tiredness is less of an issue.  The C60 provides these better than most.  The motion upwind is more pleasant than the corkscrew motion of cats in waves because the bows hit the wave at the same time.  It has been described as 'like a mono, without the heeling'.   A simple, unstayed rig is much less stressful to sail than a stayed one.  When the squall hits, dump the sheets, the sails weathercock (regardless of wind direction) and you trim on just as much as you need

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

-enough volume for a family of 4 plus occasional guests

Volume needs to be usable.  For long periods in small spaces, you need privacy, your own space.  For comfort, this should be as close to the pitch centre as possible.  ie, not in the ends of the boat. 

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

-Good looks. Life is too short to own an ugly boat

 Unique looks can be a 'good thing' in this era of cookie cutter boats.  The quickest way to meet new people is to have the most exotic boat in the bay.  If it also claims the same heritage as the local's (Pacific Islands) traditional boats, you are likely to get preferential treatment from them.  This may be the difference between being seen as a guest to be welcomed and a tourist to be ripped off.  If the C60 looks don't appeal, there are many options to alter them.

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

-Not new, but not so old that we'll need to do a massive refit. There's nothing more expensive than a cheap boat  

Agree about the cheap boat, but new need not be expensive.  There are many ways to keep the cost (and the weight and maintenance, down).  Low loads on minimal deck gear, sensible ventilation rather than AC,  usable space rather than 'volume',  low bows rather than high ones, no daggerboards or cases,  one steering wheel instead of 2 or 3, one engine instead of 2,  handling the build logistics yourself and eliminating the builder's profit, to name a few.  A build method with no sanding, grinding or cutting of cured laminate, no wet laminating or tabbing and cheap, simple moulds that need no fairing or polishing also helps.

On 1/6/2019 at 9:42 AM, soma said:

-Not so big that it's a headache, but not so small that we'll hobby horse our way around (44-65ft)

'Big'  means more hull to scrub,  more maintenance, deeper draft,  bigger sails, rigs, rudders and engines, higher loads, less enjoyment.  It is different to 'long' which means faster, more comfortable and safer.    When you find that $500,000 is more than enough to build a C60 in 6 months, maybe spend a little more and lengthen the lee hull as much as you feel comfortable with.  No need to change anything else.

Daggers vs fixed keels.  A performance multi will not have fixed keels.  Nor will one in which you can enjoy shallow water.  Daggers are aptly named on a boat which can sail at 20 knots.  If they don't damage themselves or the hull in a collision or grounding, it is because both are massively reinforced, which is dead weight 99.9% of the time.  The same applies to plumb bows.    The potential damage to crew who are not prepared for a 20 knots to zero stop is pretty scary.    The C60 solution is kick up and liftable rudders (which are big enough to not need daggers), a liftable prop and a soft crash box in the bows.   

If any of this needs clarifying, let me know.

 

C60 front.jpg

C60 cabin.jpg

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On 1/7/2019 at 9:26 AM, he b gb said:

Hey Soma, you could probably get Stratosphere for free. She’s been sitting amongst scrub and coral rubble on the west coast of Christmas Island (Kiribati) for about 35 years now! I tracked her down in 2016/17 while I spent cyclone season there. She needs a lot of work!! I’ve got heaps of photos which I would like to post for those interested. Anybody know an easy way to condense my photos to less than 10mb’s.(I’m very computer illiterate)  Ps, definitely not worth rescuing!

Win zip or email them to yourself. 

Post them pics. 

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9 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Lots of amazing boats on this thread. For me the new outremer 45 tics a lot of boxes.

 

Ben -

Take the fam and go charter the TS42 from DYC.  Its based in Martinique if I recall correctly.  Very similar to O45.  Reasonably priced.  Nice deals on the charter if off season.  You may never come back!! 

We also looked at the F41 down by you.  Yikes!!

Wess

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Ben -

Take the fam and go charter the TS42 from DYC.  Its based in Martinique if I recall correctly.  Very similar to O45.  Reasonably priced.  Nice deals on the charter if off season.  You may never come back!! 

We also looked at the F41 down by you.  Yikes!!

Wess

Have you sailed that TP42? How are the living spaces / shade? We've done Leopard 4Xs and love the outdoor/indoor living space, but hate the performance...

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7 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

Have you sailed that TP42? How are the living spaces / shade? We've done Leopard 4Xs and love the outdoor/indoor living space, but hate the performance...

No; am taking the word of friends who have.  We were both interested in the boat at the time.  They liked performance and build.  Don't recall discussion re shade either way.  Would think canvas can fix that.  Living space is always gonna be a compromise on boat this size if looking for performance but that was a trade off we (and they) were willing to make.  Neither of us bought but the boat stayed high on our list.  We had some family issues that pushed us into an "in-between boat." 

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Right but a leopard or moorings cat of similar length has table + seating inside, and also outside. The TP42 seems to only have a tiny outside area. Is it open enough to qualify as outside living?

To be clear, I'm thinking of chartering the TP42. Not in a position to live aboard.

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11 hours ago, Mizzmo said:

Balance cats also seem like a lot of boat for the money. If the build quality is good?

 

You know, I want to not like the Balance Cats but I can't help but admire what they are doing. They aren't objectively quick boats but they strike a nice ...balance (no pun intended). I wouldn't consider a Balance for myself but I can't fault anyone for buying one.

If I had the cheese I think I'd go to the guys in S. Africa at Two Oceans and have them build me a custom built design. They've produced a lot of great boats. This boat is my current crush. http://2oceans.co.za/products/performance-sailing-catamarans/m60-full-carbon-high-performance-sailing-catamaran/. There are some stylistic things and design choices that I don't love, but again, the compromise between quality and price seems great. Reminds me of the "good" era of Gunboat. (I'd still argue that Gunboat only built good boats in SA. Everything after that was epilogue).

 

 

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Yep. Why oh why are GB48s so rare?

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Ben -

Take the fam and go charter the TS42 from DYC.  Its based in Martinique if I recall correctly.  Very similar to O45.  Reasonably priced.  Nice deals on the charter if off season.  You may never come back!! 

We also looked at the F41 down by you.  Yikes!!

Wess

Wess,

I can see why the TP42 was on your short list. It would be great for seasonal cruising, and there is a lot to like about it, but I don't think it would have enough space as a livaboard for my family of 4. I have a tough position though.

Ben

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Finding Hughes 63 Atlantis is not a problem (it’s in Martinique). Restoring might take a bit of work.

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This pic shows the transom detail I muttered about previously. What do those extensions accomplish?

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