soma

Over the horizon

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2 hours ago, soma said:

I'm not sure it's worth it at all...which is why I'm sorta having this debate publicly. It's tough. There's a point where every guy who said he'd never buy a minivan buys a minivan. 

With that said...I look at folks like Trispirit and The Anasazi's and think "Fuck it, go fast!".

Soma thanks for this thread. I’m a few years behind you in making a similar decision. While I have similar criteria to you I’m light years behind in experience and competence to make this decisions. I look forward to following and learning from your progress.

I think the minivan analogy is apt, at least I can relate to it.  My wife was ABMV (anything but minivan). We did the Isuzu Trooper, then Mercedes wagon but ultimately yielded to a minivan as we added kids. Then as the kids approached college we thought we could lose the minivan and have some fun with a MB 500 wagon...two years later back to a minivan. The Mercedes was good looking, great to drive, but compared to a Sienna was expensive to buy, had only OK room, depreciated faster, was expensive to operate and maintain. Everything was more complicated than it needed to be to do its task well ... hydraulic suspension replaced twice, even cupholder...one MB cup holder had more moving parts and cost more than 4 cup holders, and a storage bin with power port for the Toyota. I had to buy two cup holders for the MB...never for any other vehicle.

 

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What we have here is a failure to remember the old adage----  low cost, performance, accommodations--- pick any 2.

Yes, a half mill is 'low cost', sorry.  (if you were looking for a 35' cruising monohull, well, you'd be golden)

For the mission, once family is included,  you must have  Accommodations.   That leaves performance and low cost.

The stated budget is low cost, or at least sufficiently price constrained.

Performance is the lost step child.

Were it me,  I'd wish for a few more boat bucks and go for that ChrisWhite MastFoil 47 here in Seattle for less than $800 grand...

If my heart was truly set on a catamaran within budget,  I'd be looking for a new/newused Lagoon 42 or 52.  Comfort.  The Admiral and little Somas would be thrilled and truth be told, turning the key means you get your batteries topped off and a chance to run the water maker for 'free'.  It's really not such a bad life beyond catching a little grief from the SA Sailing Advisors about getting a production boat.  Fine!  Let them buy you that MastFoil 47 then.  Plus, you could easily sell the Lagoon after the cruise and after the kids go off to college and get you a nice little performance cat or tri for your golden years.  

The odds of you staying a world cruising live aboard for life are low.  You WILL try to come back for a more 'normal' life.  Grandma will insist....

Ask me how I know....

 

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How about a big, fugly powerboat with a monster crane, then I put Soma on the deck! Best of both worlds. Larry Paige would have nothing on me.  He's got a G4 on his. I reckon my F40 would take his G4 in a W/L!

image.png.90fd8e05b55a1bdaf0c4ec4f9062bc4e.png

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Why a fast sailboat :

1) the “outrun the weather” argument 

2) esthetics. Why do this in the first place? Who are you, identity? Who will your kids grow up to be? Does the word “motorsailing” make you want to kill yourself?

3) it’s not what it is (square footage of living space), it’s what you can do with it. Will you WANT to go and visit more places if journey is not fun?

It’s about the journey 

 

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The kite/sail/surf boards slide in the ama for thrills/exercise/breaking out of the cabin

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19 minutes ago, EarthBM said:

...

3) it’s not what it is (square footage of living space), it’s what you can do with it. Will you WANT to go and visit more places if journey is not fun?

It’s about the journey 

 

I think you are more likely to keep the journey going ...the 1/7 days in transit, if when you get to the next stop the 6/7 days spent there feel like living afloat rather than camping on a boat.

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this one looks pretty darn nice. Grainger 48 down in La Paz. Asking price of $395 low enough to get it back to your locale.

 

33078177Taj-Genoa_Bay.jpg?z=2017-11-23-1

http://www.catamarantaj.com/home

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That is a sweet looking cat. Retractable sprit?

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3 minutes ago, boardhead said:

That is a sweet looking cat. Retractable sprit?

I think so, its on YW

Sprit

-Helically wound engineered whisker stay free carbon fiber sprit by Forte

-Aasymmetrical spinnaker and screecher hardware.

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Taj looks well done, although a bit of weight on it.  Cedar strip makes a lot of sense for longevity imho.

If you want a cat with speed that doesn't break the bank to buy, has no balsa, and has a resale track record, a well maintained Outremer 55 light would be on the list.  Dated aesthetics would start to seem irrelevant when you arrive before all the rest, can dry out (more or less) in an emergency, have an actual rubbing strip that lets you tie up alongside third world pilings.

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Yep, coming alongside that rubbing strip is nice, a weak spot on my St Francis 44. I milled some cedar to nest over the fragile external flange, epoxied, bolted and bias glassed it in place, it’s attractive and super strong.

There is some weight on the Grainger but looking at the owner’s background I would’nt second guess his choices, obviously knows his stuff.

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6 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Yep, coming alongside that rubbing strip is nice, a weak spot on my St Francis 44. I milled some cedar to nest over the fragile external flange, epoxied, bolted and bias glassed it in place, it’s attractive and super strong.

There is some weight on the Grainger but looking at the owner’s background I would’nt second guess his choices, obviously knows his stuff.

Wish I could convince the wife that we could finish off the kids homeschooling ala the Porter method, and hit the water....

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52 minutes ago, mrybas said:

https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/76929

Not much info in the add, but from the photos seems like it theoretically ticks a lot of the boxes.

 

Agreed, except for one which is that the OP will not buy a balsa boat.  Nice interior, but serious price for such an old boat, unless everything has been upgraded.

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53 minutes ago, bigmarv said:

Agreed, except for one which is that the OP will not buy a balsa boat.  Nice interior, but serious price for such an old boat, unless everything has been upgraded.

Am I missing something?  How do you know its Balsa?

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https://m.sailboatlistings.com/view/76973

This 65’ Kurt Hughes monster looks like it needs a refit, but the price makes that a possibility - $250k could buy a lot of custom furniture, lines, and sails and you stand a chance of recouping some of it... maybe.   Accommodations and probably a good turn of speed as well. It’s been making me daydream - anyone know anything about it?

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I think this is the boat I was on in Newport, when she was new, with the designer. Chris was pretty pissed that the owner did not want to put the rig on the boat figuring she made a really nice power boat that, in the event of an approaching hurricane, he could run "down east" to Maine, out of harms way. I guess they eventually stepped the rig but she does have some pretty serious diesel motive power for a sailboat

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Quote

Fountaine Pajot 46?

No. Not slow by condo standards but we buddy boated one across the Pacific on our Richard Woods 40' cat. We were faster.

(We were fast for a cruising cat but never into the teens - except at 3am with a spinnaker up during a squall mid-ocean)

Quote

Lagoon 42

Sooo so slow. Much slower than the F-P. Another buddy boat across the Pacific.

 

I don't think for your budget you'll get a boat that is capable of high teens on a consistent basis. Sure, in spurts, when you're pushing it. Like daysails in sporty conditions.

But you will be sailing your home. With the wife and kids. Not 4 adults. That made me throttle back lots of times. We had friends with an early Outremer 38. Super spartan outfit (they bought the hulls from Outremer). I remember his words well. "Next boat will be a slow Jeantot cat. This one is too fast. Crossing the Atlantic we were doing 12-14 knots and it was noisy. The children's school books kept ending up on the floor". I like a fast boat but with 2 adults aboard you're basically single handling a lot of the time - and you're always a bit sleep deprived on ocean passages. You have to dial it back at times.

The Schionning 16.2 looks fast based on the interior. I don't see a lot of heavy wood trim.

The Outremer 55 at 350K seems like a very good deal.

I like long, simple boats that are not overloaded.

I think the Chris White Atlantic 55/57 have to be pushed a bit to keep their speed up. No experience, just a bit of intuition.

I don't think you personally should ever consider a boat with mini keels. It just wouldn't be right.

 

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20 hours ago, KC375 said:

I think the minivan analogy is apt, at least I can relate to it.  My wife was ABMV (anything but minivan). We did the Isuzu Trooper, then Mercedes wagon but ultimately yielded to a minivan as we added kids. Then as the kids approached college we thought we could lose the minivan and have some fun with a MB 500 wagon...two years later back to a minivan. The Mercedes was good looking, great to drive, but compared to a Sienna was expensive to buy, had only OK room, depreciated faster, was expensive to operate and maintain. Everything was more complicated than it needed to be to do its task well ... hydraulic suspension replaced twice, even cupholder...one MB cup holder had more moving parts and cost more than 4 cup holders, and a storage bin with power port for the Toyota. I had to buy two cup holders for the MB...never for any other vehicle.

 

Love your analogy.  Well said.  And would only add that the top end of the Toyota or Benz didn't matter on the non stop cross country road trip.  Heck; the roads or weather or 3am sleep deprivation or wanting your kid with their new learner permit to take a turn driving, often force you to drive at or below the speed limit.

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7 hours ago, Zonker said:

 

But you will be sailing your home. With the wife and kids. Not 4 adults. That made me throttle back lots of times. We had friends with an early Outremer 38. Super spartan outfit (they bought the hulls from Outremer). I remember his words well. "Next boat will be a slow Jeantot cat. This one is too fast. Crossing the Atlantic we were doing 12-14 knots and it was noisy. The children's school books kept ending up on the floor". I like a fast boat but with 2 adults aboard you're basically single handling a lot of the time - and you're always a bit sleep deprived on ocean passages. You have to dial it back at times.

 

 

After all is said and done, this ^ is the reality one has to really deal with.  We don't like it.  But until we've done it, the only perspective we have is coastal cruising and/or chartering.  If you've done ocean crossings yourself but not with your family, you still haven't experienced that 'look' in the Admiral's sleep deprived eyes that says,  "This shit's got to change or I'm done at the next port".    Ahhh, the tragedy of the 'dream' vs 'reality'....

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I'm trying to figure out where this cat got off to.

Image result for occam's razor catamaran

    A Ron Givens open bridgedeck design that had the deckhouse cabin after being sailed from NZ to the Caribbean by a good friend. I later delivered it from St T to Newport and think it would be a good match for your stated purpose. Bit of a handful in a blow and we had some dicey times before getting into Bermuda just before the shit hit the fan heading North that trip. It had stupidly undersize Lombardi diesels at the time and we had to keep up more sail than I would have otherwise to get into safe harbor. Not as many bunks as its size would indicate but for your family that might not be an issue. 

Image result for occam's razor catamaran

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18 hours ago, Zonker said:

But you will be sailing your home. With the wife and kids. Not 4 adults. That made me throttle back lots of times. We had friends with an early Outremer 38. Super spartan outfit (they bought the hulls from Outremer). I remember his words well. "Next boat will be a slow Jeantot cat. This one is too fast. Crossing the Atlantic we were doing 12-14 knots and it was noisy. The children's school books kept ending up on the floor". I like a fast boat but with 2 adults aboard you're basically single handling a lot of the time - and you're always a bit sleep deprived on ocean passages. You have to dial it back at times.

I don't really know my ass from a hole in the ground, but I'd image the ride in say a gunboat 62, Outremer 5X, any long slender cat at 12-14 knots would be rather comfortable compared to an Outremer 38.  Sure the Outremer 38 can sail at respectable boat speeds, but it is not comfortable at those speeds (in the open ocean) compared to larger boats of similar design sailing at 50-60% of maximum speed.  That's the catch 22 with these high performance cats, you need 60' of waterline and skinny hulls to get the performance, but you only get the accommodation of a 45' condomaran.  The actual market for performance cats is pretty small.  Most people with $1,000,000 to blow on a boat expect to never leave the comforts of home.

9 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

I'm trying to figure out where this cat got off to.

I remember seeing this boat for salea couple years ago and wishing I had the $!

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It was still knocking around the Caribbean up until a couple of years ago but I think is homeported somewhere jus north on Newport. Good underwing clearance and not loaded down with too much gear. Good turn of speed and I'm not sure why it never got more notice. Soma would do just fine with it if available. Lets put out an APB on it!

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The boat that has been mentioned and that I have somewhat lusted over the past few years is the M&M 52 Kiappa. Its seems that this boat is about as close as a normal person could ever get to the fabled Unicorn/ Great White Buffalo Gunboat 48.

Does anyone have the skinny on this thing?  

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14 minutes ago, KC375 said:

27a146_7f793868f4ee4c69a0b43cad56eb62e7~27a146_fc7b7bd36a364f488a17c733e5ccad4b~27a146_ad444033073f4948b51cacb712b7262d~

I was on Kiappa while in Fiji in 2015.  I was anchored around Musket Cove while crossing the Pacific on my old boat.  The owner of Kiappa at the time was from South Africa and spending the season at Musket Cove.  He was also a surfer/kiter, but broke a rib on the trip up from NZ when the boat lurched and he lost his balance.  We had the surf/kite thing in common, so we would make small chit chat at the island bar.  

He did invite me to check out the boat one afternoon.  The build quality looked very high quality.  He did insist on telling everyone it was a Gunboat, which I thought was a little queer since Gunboat never built a '52 ;) 

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40 minutes ago, Wang said:

The boat that has been mentioned and that I have somewhat lusted over the past few years is the M&M 52 Kiappa. Its seems that this boat is about as close as a normal person could ever get to the fabled Unicorn/ Great White Buffalo Gunboat 48.

Does anyone have the skinny on this thing?  

Personally, I'd take Shooting Star over Kiappa.

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/shootingstar/

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Kiappa looks like it's very "wood trim heavy" I'm sure it's basic design was somewhat Gunboat inspired.

Soma, what's your tolerance for low quality fit & finish? i.e. Old Eric Lerouge/Outremer?      

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8 hours ago, mrybas said:

Personally, I'd take Shooting Star over Kiappa.

http://www.morrellimelvin.com/shootingstar/

Interesting story Shooting Star is.  It inspired us.  And strangely enough the current iteration lives very near to me.  Seems nice enough and the new owner seems to enjoy it. But the original owner is the one who really had the dream and had the boat designed and built (and convinced me to never ever build a one off custom). When kept light it performed wonderfully and in the past there were actually some videos of it sailing you could find on the internet. But that was with a pretty rudimentary fit out and once it evolved in new hands, lots of weight was reportedly added and I was told she never performed the same.  But still a really cool boat if refitted back to the original intent.

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9 hours ago, Zonker said:

Kiappa looks like it's very "wood trim heavy" I'm sure it's basic design was somewhat Gunboat inspired.

...

I fail to understand boat interiors that look like Boiserie from a 17th century chateau...especially in catamarans that are otherwise leading technology. I’m guessing the owner of Kiappa didn’t have wall to wall wood paneling in their shore based residence...why would you do that in an environment that’s unfriendly to wood panelling for wear (wet and prone to scuffs...I doubt the original owner would brake a rib in his home ashore) and for weight. A little Herreshoff like wood trim can add a warm tone but why wall to wall wood.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Interesting story Shooting Star is.  It inspired us.  And strangely enough the current iteration lives very near to me.  Seems nice enough and the new owner seems to enjoy it. But the original owner is the one who really had the dream and had the boat designed and built (and convinced me to never ever build a one off custom). When kept light it performed wonderfully and in the past there were actually some videos of it sailing you could find on the internet. But that was with a pretty rudimentary fit out and once it evolved in new hands, lots of weight was reportedly added and I was told she never performed the same.  But still a really cool boat if refitted back to the original intent.

 

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10 hours ago, Zonker said:

Kiappa looks like it's very "wood trim heavy" I'm sure it's basic design was somewhat Gunboat inspired.

Soma, what's your tolerance for low quality fit & finish? i.e. Old Eric Lerouge/Outremer?      

I agree on all of the above and certainly wouldn't say the boat is picture perfect either but maybe the closet thing a person like me could get for a similar goal as somas. 

For sure a little hershoff treatment would go a long way in the main salon as would a few aesthetics changes outboard. Hell even with the so many cat's like the gunboat 55's being turboed it would probably be cheeper to acquire a rig, rigging, and sails from one of them than it would cost to buy a full set of new sails the existing squatty rig. 

But with a daughter that is only turning 3 at the end of Feb I am still a good 4-6 years away from doing anything   

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On 1/7/2019 at 12:05 PM, soma said:

It's 90% at anchor. Maybe you do 10,000 miles/year (hopefully less!). 10,000 miles/year is roughly what we averaged on Zenyatta, GB6203.  10,000 miles @ 8 knots is 1250 hours. That's 52 days. One day per week underway on average. That's not much.

Which makes a strong argument that interior ergonomics and comfort count for a lot. But...I like sailing. I like sailing to feel fun. 

On Zenyatta, did you slow down for comfort? Are double digit speeds even realistic on passages >5 hours as far as ‘her not hating it’ goes?

If double digit speeds are there for only brief periods, like 10% of the passages, your calculus becomes:

90% anchor

9% 9kt hull speed

1% 15kt spirited sailing.

so if you have to pay up say $100k more for that 1%, you are buying a 1% share in a $10m raceboat. Maybe still worth it (1% of the time satisfies 53% of the craving — literal extrapolation of the 80/20 rule).

 

As far as comfort trimarans have a much more seakindly ride in my limited experience. Safer when pushed too... that Hughes 63... 

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Mr Anasazi has some great listings. Segue, the Chris White 55 is on my short list (but out of my price range). That 61' Crowther is interesting. It's heavy @ 20 tons, but it's alot of boat.

I loved that Taj til I saw the extensive use of wood. Some folks love wood and swear by it, I struggle though.

I remember that Hughes Dragonfly when it was new. We got a tour before we ended up buying Gunboat 6201, Tribe. Everything new was kinda cool and shiny back then. Avalon was new, Dragonfly was from that era, the Multiplast built Magic Cat, Deuce France, the Lagoon 85 Lonestar. I'm glad we ended up with the Gunboat! Looking at Dragonfly, I don't know if they've updated anything since launch. It looks tired.

As for that big Hughes tri, I was really tempted. I was in touch with the gov't down there. It went up for auction and didn't meet its reserve. It went up for sale again and didn't meet it's new, lower reserve ($80k?). I couldn't justify it even if it was free though. New rig, new engine, new sails, exterior paint, interior work and paint, electronics, deck hardware, on and on. Especially when a beautiful sistership was for sale for $600k https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/hughes-perry-2834887/

I agree that a tri will be faster, a lot faster, but like Wess pointed out, no one has done a bridgedeck salon tri except (arguably) Neel. And like Wess, I think it could be done, and done really well. I look at the bridgedeck on Banque Pop and imagine how it could work. It wouldn't be hard or unsightly to pull off. But I won't be the guy that does it.  image.thumb.png.abf87910612034b97cab824886e1bec1.png

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3 hours ago, soma said:

I agree that a tri will be faster, a lot faster, but like Wess pointed out, no one has done a bridgedeck salon tri except (arguably) Neel. And like Wess, I think it could be done, and done really well. I look at the bridgedeck on Banque Pop and imagine how it could work. It wouldn't be hard or unsightly to pull off. But I won't be the guy that does it.  

I'd love to see a Rapido reconfigured with dual inside/outside helms.  Or two tillers and a pilothouse.  Just get that board out of the cabin and into the floats to make room.  Would probably depreciate to my price range by the time I"m ready to do a lap.

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4 hours ago, soma said:

Especially when a beautiful sistership was for sale for $600k https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2000/hughes-perry-2834887/

 

Quote

the combined talents of Kurt Hughes and Robert Perry

That's an odd duck I've never seen before.  Very beamy!  What's the main hull BWL?  ~45' BOA!

3536561_0_290320111919_1.jpg.1ef582a1078ab4b00b489f972443446c.jpg

3536561_0_290320111919_3.jpg.0cbc500df5538792d77a21f9309a54d6.jpg

11393183_10206647326130142_5610585733947812913_n.thumb.jpg.e7dc47303451ac35b17c8c3d4aa13eb9.jpg

http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_other/63tri.htm

Hard to grasp the layout from the photos.  Five double berths!  Two heads.  13 tons.  High teens?  Intriguing...

63triinteriorg.gif

  • Length overall:62'11" (19.2 m)
  • Beam:44'-8" (13.64 m)
  • Draft:2'-4"/12'-6" (0.71/3.8 m)
  • Weight:15.150 lb (6.874 kg)
  • Displacement:25.650 lb (11.635 kg)
  • Sail Area: m 1220 sf (113.3 sqm), j 488 sf (45.3 sqm), s 1409 sf (130.9 sqm), upwind 1708 sf (176.2 sqm)

1460857_3.jpeg

 

A TRIMARAN OF SPANISH FLAIR… WITH PLENTY SPACE FOR LIVING UNDER DECK.  (Rosinante)
July 29, 2015 · by Skipper JayR

https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/a-trimaran-of-spanish-flair-with-plenty-space-for-living-under-deck/#jp-carousel-647

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Sailed on Avalon and occams. For a family I’d say Avalon has more space and versatility. Occams was in rough shape when I sailed her but a very cool platform. Both great boats for sailors who want to sail. 

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36 minutes ago, Stiletto23 said:

Sailed on Avalon and occams. For a family I’d say Avalon has more space and versatility. Occams was in rough shape when I sailed her but a very cool platform. Both great boats for sailors who want to sail. 

how long ago was it you sailed on Occam`s?  Where is it now?  Cheers.

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Thanks for the thread, Soma. Very instructive.

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On 1/11/2019 at 4:44 PM, ProaSailor said:

 

That's an odd duck I've never seen before.  Very beamy!  What's the main hull BWL?  ~45' BOA!

3536561_0_290320111919_1.jpg.1ef582a1078ab4b00b489f972443446c.jpg

3536561_0_290320111919_3.jpg.0cbc500df5538792d77a21f9309a54d6.jpg

11393183_10206647326130142_5610585733947812913_n.thumb.jpg.e7dc47303451ac35b17c8c3d4aa13eb9.jpg

http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_other/63tri.htm

Hard to grasp the layout from the photos.  Five double berths!  Two heads.  13 tons.  High teens?  Intriguing...

63triinteriorg.gif

  • Length overall:62'11" (19.2 m)
  • Beam:44'-8" (13.64 m)
  • Draft:2'-4"/12'-6" (0.71/3.8 m)
  • Weight:15.150 lb (6.874 kg)
  • Displacement:25.650 lb (11.635 kg)
  • Sail Area: m 1220 sf (113.3 sqm), j 488 sf (45.3 sqm), s 1409 sf (130.9 sqm), upwind 1708 sf (176.2 sqm)

1460857_3.jpeg

 

A TRIMARAN OF SPANISH FLAIR… WITH PLENTY SPACE FOR LIVING UNDER DECK.  (Rosinante)
July 29, 2015 · by Skipper JayR

https://trienthusiasts.wordpress.com/2015/07/29/a-trimaran-of-spanish-flair-with-plenty-space-for-living-under-deck/#jp-carousel-647

Rosinante sailed in the Van Isle 360 not long after she was finally launched. Not particularly fast but had much work to do to get her sorted. Had no problem beating her in my F9AR Redshift in any conditions. We affectionately named her "Graceland".

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12 hours ago, D Wayne G said:

Rosinante sailed in the Van Isle 360 not long after she was finally launched. Not particularly fast but had much work to do to get her sorted. Had no problem beating her in my F9AR Redshift in any conditions. We affectionately named her "Graceland".

It certainly is a beast!  It made me go back and take a closer look at Chris White's Hammerhead 54 trimaran: https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/hammerhead-54

Specifications

Length Overall 54'
Beam 34' 6"
Draft 2' 6" board up
9'     board down
Sail Area Mainsail 858 sq ft
Sail Area Jib 492 sq ft
Sail Area Staysail 250 sq ft
Masthead to Design Waterline 64'
Displacement 17,000 lbs
Power Inboard diesel

Photos: https://chriswhitedesigns.smugmug.com/CUSTOM-POWER-TRIMARANS/Trimarans/Hammerhead-54/

hammerhead_cockpit.thumb.jpg.97b8500080d0ae31acd61e5a446fdcb9.jpg

It has a spacious center cockpit with an aft cabin, a double cabin forward, a surprisingly large galley and displaces 8.5 tons.  I lifted the plan drawing below (GIMP'ed) from here:
https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/images/HH54/Yachting.hh54.review.pdf

Quote

- 16 knots in a mere 12 to 14 knots of wind and more than 20 knots in a blow -

hammerhead54_plan_2019Jan12.thumb.png.0085e0dceab85d48469e29cdb382d201.png

The galley floor is below the "bridge deck" level.  Flare in the main hull makes the central space 12 feet wide (at head height).

hammerhead_galley.thumb.jpg.b14586c124aa5fe71fb822ebab038ddc.jpg

Having struggled for decades trying to cram four double berths, a big galley and salon into a ~70' proa, I am intimately familiar with the challenge.  One big part of the problem for me has been the passageways needed to get forward of the beams...

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This is the radical Tracer 1500TRi from Schionning - 49 feet, 7.7 tons - wow, there are many wild ideas here!

http://www.schionningdesigns.com.au/1500tri

  • No cockpit on the main hull, steering and sail handling done outboard from either side on the aft beam.
  • Entrance to interior from either side.
  • Four private cabins, using each ama for an extra berth and head.

Stunning CAD work.  Very cool, would love to see this one happen.

15mTriRen03030_srcset-large.thumb.jpg.a9209aa3b570985d89ee10b4b752b1da.jpg

Specifications

LOA    15.00 metres
BOA    10.20 metres
DRAFT   0.675 metres
HEADROOM    Full Standing
FUEL CAPACITY     150 litres
MAST HEIGHT    19 metres
SAIL AREA (Main + Headsail)    75+43 sq metres
PAYLOAD    1800 kg
DISPLACEMENT    7000 kg
WATER CAPACITY    400 litres
MOTOR OPTION    1 x 40hp Diesel   
BEAM TO LENGTH   10.6:1
BRUCE NUMBER

  1.43

 

15mTriScrn01060_srcset-large.jpg

15mTriScrn01070_srcset-large.jpg

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Looks like a long way to run when you tack by yourself!

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I think I would want some kind of inside/protected helm on a 50+ crusing tri.

Using the space in the amas makes a lot of sense.  Would dual engines in the amas make for terrible sea keeping?  Getting the diesel away from the living space would be great.  

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1 hour ago, eastern motors said:

Using the space in the amas makes a lot of sense.  Would dual engines in the amas make for terrible sea keeping?  Getting the diesel away from the living space would be great.

The windward ama will be in the air when motor sailing.  Weight in the (leeward) amas would be counter-productive.

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33 minutes ago, ProaSailor said:

The windward ama will be in the air when motor sailing.  Weight in the (leeward) amas would be counter-productive.

Run the leeward engine only if heeled obv.  More than one reason to run the engine when cruising.

Leeward weight would be balance by windward weight, but would the boat be too rolly with weight outboard?

Couldn't have a ton of dihedral without retractable drives but a cruising tri shouldn't be tacking all that often.

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3 hours ago, eastern motors said:

Would dual engines in the amas make for terrible sea keeping?

Mostly the props would come out of the water regularly if motoring with any kind of cross seas with no sails (such entering/leaving a harbor, etc...)

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47 minutes ago, bigmarv said:

That boat makes my mind boggle. "Inside helm only" on a boat clearly not designed for it - or can you actually see through those tiny front windows?

Paul

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What's everyone's take on a Catana? Not blistering fast (or even fast at all?) but you DO get boards and a carbon rig. 

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Probably 15-20% premium for the brand and the easier resale that comes with it. Loyal owners (invested in the brand).  Not fast — weight plus fat hulls (after 2000) — need big engines.

An interesting project could be to get one and then instead of replacing ageing systems to ditch them one by one (a/c, gensets, furniture, wood paneling). Then to see how it becomes simpler and faster.

 

 

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1 hour ago, soma said:

What's everyone's take on a Catana? Not blistering fast (or even fast at all?) but you DO get boards and a carbon rig. 

There is a 58 for sale in Ft lauderdale by the original owner that is perfectly setup/maintained with a beautiful set of racing sails. 

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33 minutes ago, JoeyG said:

There is a 58 for sale in Ft lauderdale by the original owner that is perfectly setup/maintained with a beautiful set of racing sails. 

Link?

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I know you had the Outremer 49 on your original list Soma, having looked at it a bit deeper than I had before, I can only think that they come about as close as anything to your overall goals.  Pretty interesting overall package.  Not quite yet in your price range but certainly closer than some of the others that have been mentioned.  So thumbs up at least on your original thinking.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2011/outremer-49-2631786/?refSource=browse listing

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2011/outremer-49-3212735/?refSource=browse listing

(Yes I know one is kinda far away.)

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21 hours ago, EarthBM said:

I imagine it’s https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/2001/catana-582-3483091/

19ton declared displacement, 250hp of engine power... yep

 

My interest in the subject c.2010:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/showthread.php?t=51429

That’s the one! She’s heavy, but I’ve seen her get up and go in the right conditions. 

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I don't understand that you have not been contacted by the marketing/communications guy of a vendor of performance cruisers to loan you their latest for a year or so for free on the condition that you make video's about famous racer taking family on world tour. This should be easier for you than for some that already have such a sweet deal.  

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Taj is a nice boat. I bought some carbon / honeycomb panels from the owner when he was building it in Port Towsend. He had a shipping container of the stuff from Boeing. All were scrap due to defects (like a bubble the size of a quarter in a 4'x8' panel).

 

The 65' Kurt Hughes looks good and I'm sure needs a refit for the price. But decent construction with Corecell/epoxy? Huge bridgedeck clearance. Long waterline so you sail at higher speeds without as much effort. Low price allows you to put nice new sails on it? Horrible photos though. 2001 digital camera or scans of old 4"x6" prints when she was new? Low price also means you can pay the big haulout bills. 31' Beam means you can't haul very many places. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/76973

Lat 38 publisher's 63' near sistership (very spartan outfit but not too different from the one above) http://www.profligate.com/TextPages/performance.html

"In a good summer breeze on San Francisco Bay, Profligate will sail to weather at 9 to 11 knots, close reach at 13 knots, and broad reach at 13 to 18 knots. Our top recorded speed on the Bay has been 22.4 knots, this while carrying a reefed main and a small jib. To our thinking, anything over 10 knots is just fine, and anything over 15 knots is faster than we need to go for very long.

Like all catamarans, Profligate is a little sluggish in winds under 10 knots, particularly since she carries such a small jib. On the other hand, the small self-tacking jib means tacking requires nothing more than turning the wheel. Profligate motors at 10 to 11 knots in relatively calm conditions. On our first trip from Pt. Conception to San Francisco, she averaged 9.9 knots under power. With increased winds and seas, her speed can drop to six to eight knots."

 

The Outremer 49 also looks nice. Same model as La Vag's one? Small market in NZ / Australia for that boat means it's a buyer's market.

 

The Schionning doesn't impress me. Towering rig but hulls look too low. And the horrible rounded hull deck joint mean you fall off way too easily. And two outboards. And the stupid inside steering station.

 

The early Catanas (like the 39/44) were fast and light, almost like early Outremers but reasonable hull widths. Then they got heavy and luxurious. Added really tall rigs to gain some sailing ability back but never were as fast as the old ones. So they pitched more unless they had the carbon masts. And they have some significant QC problems (mast bulkheads failing/core delam). Insane amounts of freeboard (too much) means lots of windage to windward and while docking. Friends with a Catana 40 (family with 2 kids) were usually about 1-2 knots faster than us. But not a boat that ever sailed in the teens unless it was really blowing. I don't think you'll find anything bigger than the 47 for your budget. They didn't build big ones in the old days. The new ones are very heavy i.e. 42' they quote light ship weight (Carbon version) at 8.9T.  Our 40' cat was 7 T fully loaded (2 T payload?)

 

 

 

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I agree with most of that Zonker.   

On the Schionning, the helm is so stupid it's hard to believe.  Should be tillers maybe.  But I don't agree about the outboards.  Plenty of light fast multis use outboards just fine because they can actually sail, and in particular sail in light air.  Then consider the drop in drag, the lack of corrosion, the ease of maintenance in the third world, the reduced need to haul out, and then safety - the rudders do what they should in a boat with no keel and kick up which takes away a serious risk, rudder failure.  It will (or should) go stupid cheap because the helm is stupid and it needs saloon surgery, but for an experienced fast multi sailer, once the helms are moved it makes sense as a tropics boat.  But then, with owners who have put that helm in, there may be hidden problems all over the place.

Taj looks good.  The Hughes needs money but would be great if spent.  Needing to haul in parts of the world could be a problem, and it looks like it can`t dry out.  Seems odd the rudders don't kick up.  I`m surprised exposed rudders don`t worry multi guys more.  Perhaps it`s that so many of them stick to the carib where help feels nearer at hand.  

Soma, what about some of the Marsaudon boats?

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2 hours ago, bigmarv said:

outboards - the lack of corrosion, the ease of maintenance in the third world...

Well my boat had a diesel in one hull and a Yamaha 9.9 on the other side beam so I'm familiar with +/- of both.  I like a diesel a lot more for bigger boats. Reliability, an alternator that produces a reasonable amount of power, and fuel efficiency when cruising long distances. I liked the reduction in drag when we lifted the outboard but a feathering/folding prop on a shaft or saildrive is not very draggy at all. Then of course there is ventilation of the outboards in a big seaway (like when you are exiting a narrow channel where sailing isn't feasible). 

For smaller multis (<35'), yes the light weight of outboards makes sense, but you have to look at the overall package weight (fuel + motor). Our boat sailed very well in light winds down to a few knots of wind - but there were parts of the world (Indonesia / passage to the Maldives) where the water was glossy and flat for 100's of miles. I was pretty happy running our diesel for 70-80 hours at a time then. A 4 stroke outboard of similar power would be burning twice as much fuel.

Not so sure about corrosion too. I had one Yamaha 9.9 whose leg just crumbled due to salt water corrosion.  But perhaps a known problem with that model. 

Most of the third world does not run 4 stroke outboards, though that is changing slowly. 2 stroke Yamahas dominate the world in local fishing fleets, so getting parts & repair for a 25 HP 4 stroke would be a challenge.

 

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Will you guys revoke my Multihull Anarchy membership if I buy a Lagoon 57? 

I went and checked out a couple of Catanas in France yesterday. I struggled to love them. The newer ones feel soulless. The older 471 has that inboard shelf for the berths that looks nasty in a seaway. The salon felt small, too. 

That Hughes Dragonfly needs a year-long refit. It WILL be great after a refit, but I don't know if I have another complete refit in me. 

I'm going to try and check out the Schionning in Holland this week. It looks clean and well-built,  but it's too much $$$. 

I think I've identified the "one that got away". There was a Schionning 52' in Honolulu that I saw after the last Transpac. It's either sold or off the market. It had a slick centerline helm "pod" aft of the door bulkhead that would've meant good short handed sailing. Good size. Good layout. Oh well. The search continues...

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Hope you’re joking , I thought you preferred sailing to motoring! (Lagoon 57)I had a bit of a chuckle reading that the broker describes the Kurt Hughes cat as light at 17 ton. My choices so far would be the Grainger (Jaz) and the Outremer 55 earlier on in the thread. My preferences for a cruising cat would be shallow as possible draft and sailing performance (ie. light weight)  on our recent Pacific cruise I couldn’t believe the amount of production cruising cats that motor most of the time. Much more enjoyable having a boat that can sail in lighter winds than have to listen to the diesel and pay for fuel at every opportunity. My 2cents worth.

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1 hour ago, soma said:

Will you guys revoke my Multihull Anarchy membership if I buy a Lagoon 57? 

 

Pre or post 2000?  Those older ones are slick.  If only they had daggerboards.

 

Are you happy to take your family offshore with keels? Comes a time that you might want to get everything up?

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3 hours ago, soma said:

Will you guys revoke my Multihull Anarchy membership if I buy a Lagoon 57? 

I went and checked out a couple of Catanas in France yesterday. I struggled to love them. The newer ones feel soulless. The older 471 has that inboard shelf for the berths that looks nasty in a seaway. The salon felt small, too. 

That Hughes Dragonfly needs a year-long refit. It WILL be great after a refit, but I don't know if I have another complete refit in me. 

I'm going to try and check out the Schionning in Holland this week. It looks clean and well-built,  but it's too much $$$. 

I think I've identified the "one that got away". There was a Schionning 52' in Honolulu that I saw after the last Transpac. It's either sold or off the market. It had a slick centerline helm "pod" aft of the door bulkhead that would've meant good short handed sailing. Good size. Good layout. Oh well. The search continues...

I did find your Schioning in Holland and I see the VAT is paid, so maybe you can get this back

https://www.yachtingcompany.nl/en/yachts_for_sale/955541/schionning_16.20_?utm_medium=Website&amp;utm_campain=Websitelink&amp;utm_source=www.Botentekoop.nl

 

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3 hours ago, soma said:

Will you guys revoke my Multihull Anarchy membership if I buy a Lagoon 57? 

I went and checked out a couple of Catanas in France yesterday. I struggled to love them. The newer ones feel soulless. The older 471 has that inboard shelf for the berths that looks nasty in a seaway. The salon felt small, too. 

That Hughes Dragonfly needs a year-long refit. It WILL be great after a refit, but I don't know if I have another complete refit in me. 

I'm going to try and check out the Schionning in Holland this week. It looks clean and well-built,  but it's too much $$$. 

I think I've identified the "one that got away". There was a Schionning 52' in Honolulu that I saw after the last Transpac. It's either sold or off the market. It had a slick centerline helm "pod" aft of the door bulkhead that would've meant good short handed sailing. Good size. Good layout. Oh well. The search continues...

OK, I will play the part of the contrarian.

You need to talk w @Zonker.  His cruising experience is more far flung and much more recent than mine.  And - and this is important - he cruised with kid(s).  You may be surprised the extent to which that is going to impact things.

If today is anything like days past, I respectfully and without intended or implied judgement of any of the latter mentioned groupings , wonder if you got the question wrong.  There was never judgement in the actual cruising community about what kind of boat, never mind what kind of catamaran.  There were 3 groupings of people (maybe 2 depending on where you were); charters, crewed yachts (ie uber-wealthy... GB likely fall into this group today), and everyone else.  Given your budget and plan it sounds like you are going to be part of everyone else (that's a good thing).  :)  Everyone else didn't care if you were in a power yacht, sailing yacht, multi or mono.  They certainly didn't care which catamaran.  They did care about if you had kids.  Boats with kids tended to buddy up and often traveled as a group, and boats with similar speeds and itineraries tended to buddy up.

This ain't about the sailing.  Bring along a Laser, or Moth, or UFO or kite board or windsurfer to get your sailing kicks.  This is about time on the water with the family and exploring cool places and cultures and I will bet you a handle of whatever you like to drink, that by the time you get back you agree that it didn't matter if the time you spent motoring was 5% or 40%. And what did matter was sea-kindliness, comfort, and reliability.

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Hey Niels, I'm only just seeing this thread.

There's a great 65' Cat right next to TJ's mooring in Sea Cow's Bay.

'Shangrila' built in St Kitts 1999(?) I've always liked the look of her but have never sailed her.

I know an ex captain well for an inside line.

Rumored to be going for under $500,000

Mid teens easy, plan passages at 10kt average.

Carol at 123 hulls and her husband have been looking after her for the last few years.

Here's the link;

https://123hulls.com/projects-archive/1999-simonis-65/

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13 hours ago, Zonker said:

Taj is a nice boat. I bought some carbon / honeycomb panels from the owner when he was building it in Port Towsend. He had a shipping container of the stuff from Boeing. All were scrap due to defects (like a bubble the size of a quarter in a 4'x8' panel).

 

The 65' Kurt Hughes looks good and I'm sure needs a refit for the price. But decent construction with Corecell/epoxy? Huge bridgedeck clearance. Long waterline so you sail at higher speeds without as much effort. Low price allows you to put nice new sails on it? Horrible photos though. 2001 digital camera or scans of old 4"x6" prints when she was new? Low price also means you can pay the big haulout bills. 31' Beam means you can't haul very many places. https://www.sailboatlistings.com/view/76973

Lat 38 publisher's 63' near sistership (very spartan outfit but not too different from the one above) http://www.profligate.com/TextPages/performance.html

"In a good summer breeze on San Francisco Bay, Profligate will sail to weather at 9 to 11 knots, close reach at 13 knots, and broad reach at 13 to 18 knots. Our top recorded speed on the Bay has been 22.4 knots, this while carrying a reefed main and a small jib. To our thinking, anything over 10 knots is just fine, and anything over 15 knots is faster than we need to go for very long.

Like all catamarans, Profligate is a little sluggish in winds under 10 knots, particularly since she carries such a small jib. On the other hand, the small self-tacking jib means tacking requires nothing more than turning the wheel. Profligate motors at 10 to 11 knots in relatively calm conditions. On our first trip from Pt. Conception to San Francisco, she averaged 9.9 knots under power. With increased winds and seas, her speed can drop to six to eight knots."

 

The Outremer 49 also looks nice. Same model as La Vag's one? Small market in NZ / Australia for that boat means it's a buyer's market.

 

The Schionning doesn't impress me. Towering rig but hulls look too low. And the horrible rounded hull deck joint mean you fall off way too easily. And two outboards. And the stupid inside steering station.

 

The early Catanas (like the 39/44) were fast and light, almost like early Outremers but reasonable hull widths. Then they got heavy and luxurious. Added really tall rigs to gain some sailing ability back but never were as fast as the old ones. So they pitched more unless they had the carbon masts. And they have some significant QC problems (mast bulkheads failing/core delam). Insane amounts of freeboard (too much) means lots of windage to windward and while docking. Friends with a Catana 40 (family with 2 kids) were usually about 1-2 knots faster than us. But not a boat that ever sailed in the teens unless it was really blowing. I don't think you'll find anything bigger than the 47 for your budget. They didn't build big ones in the old days. The new ones are very heavy i.e. 42' they quote light ship weight (Carbon version) at 8.9T.  Our 40' cat was 7 T fully loaded (2 T payload?)

 

 

 

Taj appears to be "Sale Pending" on Yachtworld. At 1/3rd the cost of a GB48 and half the cost of a Outremer 4X its not surprising. The honeycomb was for interior work only correct? In which case minor defects weren't an issue and 'defective' pre-preg honeycomb panels from Boeing ought to be just fine!

The Simonis 65' looks very comfortable and up to the task at hand...interior is a bit too 'home-like' for my tastes but that may not be a bad thing on a round the world voyage.

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1 hour ago, racinginparadise said:

Hey Niels, I'm only just seeing this thread.

There's a great 65' Cat right next to TJ's mooring in Sea Cow's Bay.

'Shangrila' built in St Kitts 1999(?) I've always liked the look of her but have never sailed her.

I know an ex captain well for an inside line.

Rumored to be going for under $500,000

Mid teens easy, plan passages at 10kt average.

Carol at 123 hulls and her husband have been looking after her for the last few years.

Here's the link;

https://123hulls.com/projects-archive/1999-simonis-65/

24 tons!!!  HEAVY!!   Twin keels, no daggerboard.  Forget about it.

Quote

Dry Weight: 48000 lbs

Richard Spindler's Profligate (63') is "only" 30,000 lbs., though it's certainly heavier now than when I did the 1998 Ha-Ha on her. as she wasn't finished then.  Fun boat, I drove it over 19 knots in S.F. Bay once.

Note: Kurt Hughes' page for the boat says displacement is 37,568 lbs.

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3 hours ago, mowgli said:

I did find your Schioning in Holland and I see the VAT is paid, so maybe you can get this back

Could you share more knowledge about this possibility? On used boats?

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10 hours ago, soma said:

Will you guys revoke my Multihull Anarchy membership if I buy a Lagoon 57? 

The website is SAILING Anarchy. Not MOTORING Anarchy.

 

If the VAT refund Mowgli suggested works (I’d be surprised) that Schionning becomes almost $100k cheaper...

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7 hours ago, samc99us said:

The honeycomb was for interior work only correct? In which case minor defects weren't an issue and 'defective' pre-preg honeycomb panels from Boeing ought to be just fine!

As far as I know. The stuff I got from the owner would have these little defects in a corner or mid panel. You'd just cut around them. I build the entire saloon furniture and whole galley from it. Super lightweight and stiff. Lots of Pacific NW multis have managed to get this stuff from Boeing surplus.

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6 hours ago, ProaSailor said:

Note: Kurt Hughes' page for the boat says displacement is 37,568 lbs.

Profligate is still very spartan inside. Very little furniture and doesn't have lockers full of stuff. Richard and Donna only live on it part time. I'd suspect KH's displacement is loaded, and Richard's number is lightship.

Say her loaded weight is 35,000 and LWL = 60'.  D/L ratio = 72. That's a light multihull but not a racer certainly. 

A 65' cat is more boat than most people want to sail double handed. But you'd be the party boat where ever you go.

I agree that kids do change things. You indeed modify schedules to stick with the other kid boats. Like crossing the Indian Ocean 1 year earlier than planned because a bunch of boats with teens were going that year!

Above all you 

11 hours ago, soma said:

Will you guys revoke my Multihull Anarchy membership if I buy a Lagoon 57? 

Possibly. Here's a review of the 570 (replacement for 57) which said it was supposed to have better performance than the 57. Review didn't thrill me with the speeds of the 570. It was a new boat so it was empty.  Lagoons have always been the slowest of the big French builders.

http://sailingmagazine.net/article-480-lagoon-570.html

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

 

I agree that kids do change things. You indeed modify schedules to stick with the other kid boats. Like crossing the Indian Ocean 1 year earlier than planned because a bunch of boats with teens were going that year!

 

very true.  also a reality is that many kids boats are on a shoestring and if you want to stay together, you often end up going at the speed of the weakest link.  A super fast boat is less of an asset when you do a passage in a week but your kids insist on staying in the port of entry waiting for their friends who take an extra 4 days.

kid boats need other kid boats and beaches much more than speed.  

Don't share Wess's views about motoring. I don't see motoring half the time as consistent with responsible cruising, and not a good memory for kids who are going to inherit the mess we're causing.  a boat that can actually sail, and coping with the calms, is a priority for me at least.

 

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As a responsible cruiser your ecological footprint is probably 1/10 or less of somebody with a 2500 sq ft house with air conditioning, heating, electrical consumption and who drives a SUV to work!

A boat that sailed well in light winds is super important to me, but there are regions of the world where you simply have to motor for days when there is NO wind. And if you're coastal cruising at 3.53 knots in very light winds, sometimes the engine goes on if you want to make the anchorage before dark and the wife wants a good night sleep.

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Sure, but that SUV driver is not setting a standard for responsible and sustainable or anything like it.  

There's a big difference between using a motor for getting in and out of anchorages and using it as part of passage making.  you're right that there are some places with little wind, but they are less than people think, and the wind does turn up.  that's how it always used to be done.  We just don't want to wait.  but I know what you mean, and when kids want the beach, the engine goes on.  clearly you care about keeping moving under sail too, but so, so many cruisers don't know how to sail in light air, and have calibrated their expectations to never going under, say, 5 knots.  they're missing out.

 

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If light air sailing is the priority, go for the Hammerhead 54!

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8 hours ago, Training Wheels said:

If light air sailing is the priority, go for the Hammerhead 54!

Is there any hint of one being for sale?

Paul

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I did much of the work on getting that HH4 to her current state 7 plus years ago.   Bowsprit, autopilot for kick up rudder, control lines all led to cockpit, EM rudder, 24v windlass, etc, etc.  She is a great ocean boat and I sailed her twice back from Hawaii in 12 days.    After a circumnavigation I'm surprised to see a $100k markup over what she sold for last time.  

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Is it the one that was for sale in SF Bay around the time you did the work (2010-2011?). That one seemed like good value back then.

 

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5 hours ago, KC375 said:

This is a nice boat, I like the different interior with the long galley on the starboard side, salon on port:

6928942_20181228140227445_1_XLARGE.jpg

528 miles in a 24 hour period = 22 knot average for 24 hours!!!

Quote

Owner's comment:

A proven performer - at first sight Avalanche appeals to sailors as a very sexy, very fast sailboat,  with a very modern design. However, the sailor will be astonished to realize that she is also exceptionally seaworthy when cruising out in heavy weather!  After many years of sailing her around the world, in some pretty intense weather, I have never doubted her solid sailing platform and her ability to withstand the harshest of conditions.  Even while hitting speeds of thirty knots in the Southern Ocean, my crew and I never felt in harm's way.  We always had confidence in the boat!  Avalanche is a very safe world cruiser! Including a longest recorded daily run of 528 miles in a 24 hour period - Southern Ocean, New Zealand to French Polynesia Passage, August 15, 2017

The vessel is currently in Tonga, and will completing a circumnavigation, with a return to California, in early Spring 2019 - where she will be shown for sale.

 

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