soma

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I always thought that hitting something in anything but a heavy displacement steel monohull only left you in various states of "fucked", especially at performance-catamaran-speeds. It's just a risk we take and if anything it's reason to go sailing sooner rather than later as the oceans aren't getting any cleaner.

As for the Neel boats I don't think I've encountered another boat brand that has as much of a spread in review scores. Those who like them swear by them and those who dislike them wouldn't step foot on one if their life depended on it. I've never seen one in the fiberglass but I'd like to so I could form my own opinion!

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4 hours ago, Chards said:

When Jeff talks about a balsa boat being similar weight to a foam boat it’s because the foam boat will need about 1000g of laminate to account for the low compression resistance compared to about 450 or 600g for the balsa boat

That's simply not true. Compression doesn't matter in small boat design loads except local loads (like a cleat or winch which is through bolted)

Hulls on small boat like this are designed for local pressures (waves/hydrostatic). These act as bending forces on a panel. The foam has plenty of shear strength to take these loads. Balsa has more, but it's heavy and it rots.

Are you suggesting a hull on a balsa boat will have only 450 or 600 gm/m2 of hull laminate? That is a laminate that would not do well with local point loads. It would be easily punctured.

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Zonker you are correct if your foam boat never hits a dock, mooring ball or anything else floating around. Put your knee into a surfboard and see the result. There is a carbon 60 foot Schionning that has a super light balsa core and a 300g laminate so yes that’s exactly what I’m suggesting. Most balsa Schionning’s have 600g eglass, mine has 450g so it’s actually fact. I’m not a champion for balsa, just trying to balance the argument of people who hate it just because someone told them it’s shit.

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6 hours ago, Chards said:

. I’m not a champion for balsa, just trying to balance the argument of people who hate it just because someone told them it’s shit.

Balsa IS GREAT.

I have made a good living in recent years cutting the mushy stuff out and repairing.

Currently working on a Shionning .

Thanks Jeff.

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19 hours ago, Tylo said:

As for the Neel boats I don't think I've encountered another boat brand that has as much of a spread in review scores. Those who like them swear by them and those who dislike them wouldn't step foot on one if their life depended on it. I've never seen one in the fiberglass but I'd like to so I could form my own opinion!

I like the idea, but execution seems to be lacking. Sailing yahcht Ruby Rose had a video where they did a tour on one and the build quality was crap. Ladders and doors that were just screwed in and subsequently ripped off. Tables that were inch too small and needed those gaps filled. And that boat was on show at some boat show! Video isn't available anymore... their score for it is: https://www.chicagostreet.com/rubyrose/

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16 minutes ago, Upp3 said:

Video isn't available anymore...

Damn, they had to take the video down? That's rough

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1 minute ago, Tylo said:

Damn, they had to take the video down? That's rough

So was the boat and they did say and show it, so I kinda understand that.

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On 7/30/2019 at 9:15 AM, Chards said:

a carbon 60 foot Schionning that has a super light balsa core and a 300g laminate

That's hard to imagine. An I-14 dinghy has about 200 or 300 g of carbon.

It would be so fragile and frankly I doubt strong enough for any sort of wave slamming loads.

I wonder who does his composite engineering. It wouldn't come close to passing the ISO 12215 standard.

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Yeah I was thinking similar, that is the laminate schedule for an A-Class Cat (200gsm carbon over a 12mm nomex core save for local reinforcements). It may work in areas with curvature that aren't subject to slamming, but I would prefer 600gsm simply for dent resistance, and 800 would be better in those areas.

If you want increased panel compression and dent resistance, up the foam density (H110) and maybe consider nomex for weight savings. Balsa doesn't belong on a boat outside of bulkheads that are in easily accessed, generally watertight areas. Especially avoid below waterline, but on the deck isn't great either as a million holes get drilled.

Bummer on the Nida Core in the Catana's, they are otherwise nice boats. Personally the FP 46 I was aboard for a night was a very lovely cruising boat and the owners are happy. Not the highest performance which is a problem for many of us, but very live-aboard friendly in the owners cabin layout.

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27 minutes ago, samc99us said:

Bummer on the Nida Core in the Catana's, they are otherwise nice boats.

As far as I know, only a few Catanas have nida-core bulkheads: 471's of late 2001 early 2002, and some 401's which have been modified since by the yard.

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23 minutes ago, Whiskey.T said:

As far as I know, only a few Catanas have nida-core bulkheads: 471's of late 2001 early 2002, and some 401's which have been modified since by the yard.

Yeah, I didn't mean to paint all Catana's with that brush. I don't know the specifics hull #'s, but I do know it was a short lived decision. 

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Noob question: Would it be possible to use high-density foam on, say, the outsides of the hulls and in the cockpit, where point loads are the most likely to occur, and use a lower density foam for places like the insides of the hulls, under the bridgedeck and so on? Or would this create some kind of differential loads leading to premature fatigue?

I know different FRP layups are used in different areas of the boat but I don't know about core. Maybe it's already being done. Maybe it's a lot of dollars per weight saved since it's another factor to consider in the design?

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1 hour ago, Whiskey.T said:

As far as I know, only a few Catanas have nida-core bulkheads: 471's of late 2001 early 2002, and some 401's which have been modified since by the yard.

 

1 hour ago, soma said:

Yeah, I didn't mean to paint all Catana's with that brush. I don't know the specifics hull #'s, but I do know it was a short lived decision. 

Yep, followed that bit, but good to make it clear when this thread gets googled in 5 years.

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14 minutes ago, Tylo said:

Noob question: Would it be possible to use high-density foam on, say, the outsides of the hulls and in the cockpit, where point loads are the most likely to occur, and use a lower density foam for places like the insides of the hulls, under the bridgedeck and so on? Or would this create some kind of differential loads leading to premature fatigue?

I know different FRP layups are used in different areas of the boat but I don't know about core. Maybe it's already being done. Maybe it's a lot of dollars per weight saved since it's another factor to consider in the design?

Short answer, yes its possible, longer answer, thats a complex structure and why you hire a composites engineer when designing/building boats, and even they get it wrong sometimes!

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The structural beams on my boat are 3.5 lb density clad in 6 lb, a solid foam core avoiding the less than optimum inner skin laminate.

 

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10 hours ago, Tylo said:

Noob question: Would it be possible to use high-density foam on, say, the outsides of the hulls and in the cockpit, where point loads are the most likely to occur, and use a lower density foam for places like the insides of the hulls, under the bridgedeck and so on? Or would this create some kind of differential loads leading to premature fatigue?

I know different FRP layups are used in different areas of the boat but I don't know about core. Maybe it's already being done. Maybe it's a lot of dollars per weight saved since it's another factor to consider in the design?

You mean like this? https://forums.sailinganarchy.com/index.php?/topic/165516-construction-of-a-pogo-1250/&page=2&tab=comments#comment-4957632

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Thanks for the replies guys, I learn something new every day!

Sorry for the thread derailment. In a (weak and humorous) attempt to put it back on track, in case your current bid doesn't work out Soma, try knocking 20% off the price of this beast: 
https://yachthub.com/list/boats-for-sale/used/power-boats/crowther-sailing-catamaran-58-custom/236067

No boards though, but look at the size of that boom...

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The ad doesn't even mention a sail inventory... but hey, at least it does 20 kts under power!

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On 8/1/2019 at 6:50 AM, Tylo said:

Noob question: Would it be possible to use high-density foam on, say, the outsides of the hulls and in the cockpit, where point loads are the most likely to occur, and use a lower density foam for places like the insides of the hulls, under the bridgedeck and so on? Or would this create some kind of differential loads leading to premature fatigue?

I know different FRP layups are used in different areas of the boat but I don't know about core. Maybe it's already being done. Maybe it's a lot of dollars per weight saved since it's another factor to consider in the design?

I used h110 divinicell for the total build of my 45’by 28’ cat (excepting bulkheads and beams which were timber+uni glass) The main reason being that the foam was super cheap (all brand new in boxes, 1800/520 by 60mm sheets left over from a failed government minesweeper project :o. It took a couple of weeks to cut up into various thickness 260mm wide planks on a butchers bandsaw!  A lot of people said it would add to much weight to the build but a simple calculation put the extra core weight at 165 kg for the 5.5 cu/mtrs of foam I used.( some of this extra weight was saved by the ability to use lighter layups in some places. It ended up saving 15 to 20 thousand bucks for my 2 weeks labour! Well worth it I think. (A bloke in Sydney bought a warehouse of it at a auction but I think most of it has been sold off now) 

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Alright! Got an accepted offer on an Outremer 55. Survey is Tuesday. 

Any dirt on O55's? Opinions? Insider knowledge? (Thanks to all who've offered input already!)

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LOL.  I'll talk to pauly.  Lived on one during Melges 32 regatta in the BVI for like 9 days.  Smelled like poo and had underwater neon.  Sailed fast for a fucking charter boat though!

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15 minutes ago, soma said:

Alright! Got an accepted offer on an Outremer 55. Survey is Tuesday.

Angelique? Good luck with the survey. 

Paul 

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12 minutes ago, toolbar said:

Angelique? Good luck with the survey. 

Paul 

Not Angelique. This one isn't publicly for sale, I found the owner via a helpful friend. 

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27 minutes ago, soma said:

Alright! Got an accepted offer on an Outremer 55. Survey is Tuesday. 

Any dirt on O55's? Opinions? Insider knowledge? (Thanks to all who've offered input already!)

 

Just now, soma said:

Not Angelique. This one isn't publicly for sale, I found the owner via a helpful friend. 

Sweet! Wish you the best of luck with the rest of the transaction, hope it works out this time and is a good deal. You'll have to reveal more and post some pics when the deal is done!

I'll see what more I can dig up on them. It's a 55 Standard right?

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Fast but a bit on the flexible side. Maybe not the newer ones. Sounds like the perfect size for you and yours. Congrats!

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12 minutes ago, Tylo said:

 

I'll see what more I can dig up on them. It's a 55 Standard right?

Yup. '03

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16 hours ago, soma said:

Yup. '03

Well, can't find much dirt on them, if any. Owners seem to love them. The only recurring criticism (presumably from non-owners) is "there isn't as much room as on [insert another cat in the 50-60 ft range here] which really isn't that surprising. I did find this old document from before Outremer got their new fancy website. The transition from their old site seemed to cause a lot of specs like these to be lost in translation as it were. Interestingly it seems to say the entire hulls are monolithic, not just below the waterline as I thought:

https://web.archive.org/web/20071016232540/http://www.catamaran-outremer.com/catamarans/gamme/visites/descriptifsGB/descriptif50SGB.pdf

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On 8/3/2019 at 10:22 AM, soma said:

Alright! Got an accepted offer on an Outremer 55. Survey is Tuesday. 

Any dirt on O55's? Opinions? Insider knowledge? (Thanks to all who've offered input already!)

Congrats. You are back to being a member of the Grand Large family LOL!  You just can't escape em!

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On 7/31/2019 at 3:29 AM, Upp3 said:

I like the idea, but execution seems to be lacking. Sailing yahcht Ruby Rose had a video where they did a tour on one and the build quality was crap. Ladders and doors that were just screwed in and subsequently ripped off. Tables that were inch too small and needed those gaps filled. And that boat was on show at some boat show! Video isn't available anymore... their score for it is: https://www.chicagostreet.com/rubyrose/

Just checked, the video is still available! Absolute shoddy "craftsmanship".
 

 

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On 8/3/2019 at 9:22 AM, soma said:

Alright! Got an accepted offer on an Outremer 55. Survey is Tuesday. 

Any dirt on O55's? Opinions? Insider knowledge? (Thanks to all who've offered input already!)

Congrats. That is a great boat for what you are planning.

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We just had a tour of a Stealth 11.8 that is now in San Diego. Very impressed with the design & construction. No wasted space, panels are smooth & fair over large areas, this boat had been raced hard but showed NO stress cracking anywhere. Clean, racing deck layout, no trip lines across the decks. LOTS of neat ventilation opening that work very well even with all hatches closed. Thin panel wall between salon & aft deck pivots up under aft roof to completely open interior to cockpit. Rotating spar by McConaghy, single set of shrouds, upwind runners. Extending bow pole, keeps slip costs down. Very happy to have seen this as we are going to Phuket to look at a larger 13m Stealth.

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I looked at several O55's on the way to buying an A57. Great boats - simple, fast, pretty easy to maintain. A little tight on interior for fulltime live-board, kept us from pulling the trigger. Also, the configurations more favorable for us for living onboard were rare, and none for sale when we were looking.

What happened with your survey? Are you a happy boat owner??

PS - in case it's helpful and you haven't already seen it, attaching an original O55 spec and price list.

Outremer 55 Std V2 ENG.pdf

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54 minutes ago, CapDave said:

I looked at several O55's on the way to buying an A57. Great boats - simple, fast, pretty easy to maintain. A little tight on interior for fulltime live-board, kept us from pulling the trigger. Also, the configurations more favorable for us for living onboard were rare, and none for sale when we were looking.

What happened with your survey? Are you a happy boat owner??

PS - in case it's helpful and you haven't already seen it, attaching an original O55 spec and price list.

Outremer 55 Std V2 ENG.pdf

The survey was great, no surprises. Actually, the biggest surprise was that the boat was better than I hoped. The seatrial was also great. Smooth motion, good performance, and quiet/fast motoring. Those bows though! WTF? Like someone said upthread, it's like driving with the handbrake on. A bow extension is definitely in my future. We signed the Acceptance yesterday and are heading towards Closing quickly. 

I share the general consensus about interior volume and interior design on the O55. Not awesome...but we have some cool ideas we've been wanting to use on other projects that we'll use in this one. I'll post the results (if it works out). 

At the end of the day, we realized that saving on the boat bought us a lot more time on the water, and at the great price we got the O55 for I could forgive the shortcomings. It's definitely seaworthy, it's fast enough, it'll be comfortable at rest and underway. If a 55' cat is too small and "ugly" for us then we just need to recalibrate our expectations. At 1/3rd the cost of an Atlantic 57...I can forgive a lot. 

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1 hour ago, soma said:

The survey was great, no surprises. Actually, the biggest surprise was that the boat was better than I hoped. The seatrial was also great. Smooth motion, good performance, and quiet/fast motoring. Those bows though! WTF? Like someone said upthread, it's like driving with the handbrake on. A bow extension is definitely in my future. We signed the Acceptance yesterday and are heading towards Closing quickly. 

I share the general consensus about interior volume and interior design on the O55. Not awesome...but we have some cool ideas we've been wanting to use on other projects that we'll use in this one. I'll post the results (if it works out). 

At the end of the day, we realized that saving on the boat bought us a lot more time on the water, and at the great price we got the O55 for I could forgive the shortcomings. It's definitely seaworthy, it's fast enough, it'll be comfortable at rest and underway. If a 55' cat is too small and "ugly" for us then we just need to recalibrate our expectations. At 1/3rd the cost of an Atlantic 57...I can forgive a lot. 

Congrats.  Glad you folks found something you like.  Immediate refit or are you going to play with her for a while to see what you like and don't?  Where you gotta get her home from?  And start looking for a slip or mooring ASAP.

Welcome to the joys of ownership!  :lol:

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53 minutes ago, Wess said:

 or are you going to play with her for a while to see what you like and don't? 

This, this! Do this.

Well there will always be stuff you know need fixing/changing right away, but until you know the boat you won't know what big picture stuff needs changing (like all the plywood bunk boards replaced with carbon/nomex)

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LOL @Zonker.  I figure he (they) have the experience to know what they want, like and not... although this might be a bit pedestrian compared to some past (OPB) rides.  Funny for me to call an O55 pedestrian but I am guessing for Soma it is.

How are you doing out there Zonk? I think (?) I saw your old cruising boat got sold... did you pick up anything to play with on the weekends?

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Yeah, we have a fairly modest near-term to do list and a LONG long-term wish list. We know to wait on the wish list until we have a better idea of how important those things are to us, though.

I love the Antal line driver traveler. That's an easy "yes". We have a couple of other upgrades we plan on right away, but not much. 

Im stoked!

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1 hour ago, soma said:

I love the Antal line driver traveler.

How fast can  you move it if you want to dump the main fast ? I've always thought of them as a fairly slow moving device.

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

How are you doing out there Zonk? I think (?) I saw your old cruising boat got sold... did you pick up anything to play with on the weekends?

We belong to a local sailing co-op that owns 6 Catalina 27's. About $1000 / year for more sailing than I do (daysails, weekends, and a 1 week summer trip coming up). It suits us for now quite well.

I did have my eyes on a Gougeon G32 that was for sale locally. Went and saw it. Then my teenage daughter got accepted to an International Baccalaureate school in Swaziland to finish her last 2 years of high school. It's a cool place affiliated with 17 other of these schools around the world. https://www.uwc.org/  - and "Poof" the dreams of owning a G32 went out the window as we had to decide how to pay tuition! 

Right now the 17 year old daughter is on a 3 week school break with a friend. They are in the capital of Botswana, trying to somehow get to Windhoek, Namibia via kombi/bus/taxi/whatever some 1100 km through the heart of the Khalahari desert. It's a wild ride as a parent. But from what she learned while traveling with us, I think she will be fine. Last week it was about a 40 hour kombi/train/bus trip from Swaziland, through Johanesburg SA, into Zimbabwe to see Victoria Falls and hang out for a few days in Zambia. 

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2 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Right now the 17 year old daughter is on a 3 week school break with a friend. They are in the capital of Botswana, trying to somehow get to Windhoek, Namibia via kombi/bus/taxi/whatever some 1100 km through the heart of the Khalahari desert. It's a wild ride as a parent. But from what she learned while traveling with us, I think she will be fine. Last week it was about a 40 hour kombi/train/bus trip from Swaziland, through Johanesburg SA, into Zimbabwe to see Victoria Falls and hang out for a few days in Zambia. 

I'd be scared shitless if my daughter did that. She will remain chained to the helm for now.

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She's good with a knife...but if there is anything cruising teaches you, it's having a plan B,C and D for when plan A (the through bus) is cancelled.

So far on her own she looked into backtracking to Praetoria, then flying to Windhoek. Booked a flight, then it got cancelled too.

Thus right now she is on plan C to get to her destination.

She can also seemingly find wifi ANYWHERE she goes. Kids these days, I tell you!

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14 hours ago, soma said:

At the end of the day, we realized that saving on the boat bought us a lot more time on the water, and at the great price we got the O55 for I could forgive the shortcomings. It's definitely seaworthy, it's fast enough, it'll be comfortable at rest and underway. If a 55' cat is too small and "ugly" for us then we just need to recalibrate our expectations. At 1/3rd the cost of an Atlantic 57...I can forgive a lot. 

Congratulations! Sounds like you got an excellent boat for enjoying some serious time on the water cruising with your family.

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About the bows - see a 2006 Out55 light - has sharper bows than 55 std from 1993...

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20 hours ago, soma said:

The survey was great, no surprises. Actually, the biggest surprise was that the boat was better than I hoped. The seatrial was also great. Smooth motion, good performance, and quiet/fast motoring. Those bows though! WTF? Like someone said upthread, it's like driving with the handbrake on. A bow extension is definitely in my future. We signed the Acceptance yesterday and are heading towards Closing quickly. 

I share the general consensus about interior volume and interior design on the O55. Not awesome...but we have some cool ideas we've been wanting to use on other projects that we'll use in this one. I'll post the results (if it works out). 

At the end of the day, we realized that saving on the boat bought us a lot more time on the water, and at the great price we got the O55 for I could forgive the shortcomings. It's definitely seaworthy, it's fast enough, it'll be comfortable at rest and underway. If a 55' cat is too small and "ugly" for us then we just need to recalibrate our expectations. At 1/3rd the cost of an Atlantic 57...I can forgive a lot. 

Congrats!!! Happy sailing!! The best boat is always the boat you own now!! Where are you starting from? What sort of itinerary do you have in mind?

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On 8/26/2019 at 12:42 PM, Rocket Raccoon said:

I'd be scared shitless if my daughter did that. She will remain chained to the helm for now

Just found out she survived and made it further to the Namibian coast. ~1500 km. Bus - hitchhike - kombi - kombi - cab. Took them about 36 hours.

It might make a good magazine article (she has written a few) "How I hitchhiked across the Kalahari Desert at 17"

image.thumb.png.6393a7ce241f0e3efce45c158752b489.png

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Very cool Soma. Sounds like a great choice. I'm in Newport for a couple days. I'll ping you to see if you are around...

Zonker, great call on your daughter's adventure in Africa. My daughter spent a summer at a Cheetah Conservation Center in Namibia and had an experience of a lifetime (which also included some logistical challenges). Four years later, she is now in her second year of vet school. 

 

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Hey does the Anderson line driver have a "neutral" position so it can freewheel fast if you want to dump the trav?

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46 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Just found out she survived and made it further to the Namibian coast. ~1500 km. Bus - hitchhike - kombi - kombi - cab. Took them about 36 hours.

It might make a good magazine article (she has written a few) "How I hitchhiked across the Kalahari Desert at 17"

Wow. I've placed a filter on my daughter's laptop so that she never sees this post. :D

Seriously, good for her.

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Honestly - a bit of worry from both parents; it's not quite a Eurorail pass and summer hitting the beaches in Greece.

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51 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Hey does the Anderson line driver have a "neutral" position so it can freewheel fast if you want to dump the trav?

If you unlock it for the direction of travel that you want, it will freewheel that direction - that's how min work. But if the line is heavily loaded, you'll have a spinning winch handle, not good.....

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Antal not Anderson on the line driver for the traveller. We tried one of the Anderson manual line drivers like I think you mean Zonk on a Newick 40 racing tri and the neutral switch position in the middle of clockwise and counterclockwise ratcheting did indeed let you dump the traveller in a hurry. Too fast in fact and you had to unload the ratchet first with a winch handle before you could shift into neutral and you often could not hold the handle and it spun like crazy. We used it for a couple regattas and were lucky not to break any arms with it before we gave up on that otherwise nice piece of hardware.

    I am pretty sure SOMA is referring to this Antal powered driver which is not particularly quick on a traveller but he seems to have good results on the Gunboats equipped with it. 

Image result for antal linedriver

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That shit scares me. Both the line drive and the daughter’s adventures. Says the Dad of two daughters who both seem to delight in scaring the shit out of their parents. Fast attack subs anyone?

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6 minutes ago, Rocket Raccoon said:

I'm in that boat too, so to speak.

If by boat you mean Navy boat my hat is off to her (and her parents). I remember how relieved we were when our daughter passed on West Point and “becoming the first female tank battalion commander” to then spring USNA and Seals on us. By the time it ended up being subs it was almost a relief. She has been in more countries than I have been in states and I got 48. Daughters exist to give fathers heart attacks. Same as hydraulics on boats lol.

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7 hours ago, Zonker said:

Just found out she survived and made it further to the Namibian coast. ~1500 km. Bus - hitchhike - kombi - kombi - cab. Took them about 36 hours.

It might make a good magazine article (she has written a few) "How I hitchhiked across the Kalahari Desert at 17"

image.thumb.png.6393a7ce241f0e3efce45c158752b489.png

That she has tried a trip like this and succeeded is a great testament for what long-term cruising can do for kids.  I suspect she'll run circles around her peers throughout her life.  Well done Z!

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Yea I think sailing in general instills a confidence that stays with them for life.

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On 8/26/2019 at 3:31 PM, Zonker said:

How fast can you move it if you want to dump the main fast ? I've always thought of them as a fairly slow moving device.

It's definitely not FAST but I think it's fast enough. Honestly, you'd probably only get a chance to ease sheet or trav, and the sheet is probably the safer option anyway. The sheet is split and goes to port and starboard so you really shouldn't get caught out. 

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Well, it took a little longer than I'd hoped but I officially closed on my 2002 Outremer 55 today. (We would've closed a couple of weeks earlier but Dorian was out there so insurance underwriters wouldn't bind coverage until the hurricane was gone. I didn't want to buy the boat until I had insurance and luckily the buyer was willing to wait).

We are changing her name to "ZION". Wikipedia says, "Zion" stands for a utopian place of unity, peace, and freedom, as opposed to "Babylon", the oppressing and exploiting system of the materialistic modern world and a place of evil" and "a safe spiritual homeland, like in heaven, or a kind of peace of mind in one's present life". The current name is "Double Infinity".

The boat is in Sarasota, FL right now. I've got some survey compliance stuff to address before I can get underway, just little things like the stern light is out, I need to add CO detectors, etc. Nothing major. We are going to try to get her north to Newport before long then down to the Caribbean in November. (Anyone wanna go for a ride?)

In Newport we are replacing the standing rigging, sails (hydranet?), adding the line driver traveler, adding some bunk beds for the boys, and some other smaller things. Then in the spring, we'll dig into some other, bigger changes (solar, batteries, bow addition, etc).

Thanks for all of the advice and input!

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54 minutes ago, soma said:

Well, it took a little longer than I'd hoped but I officially closed on my 2002 Outremer 55 today. (We would've closed a couple of weeks earlier but Dorian was out there so insurance underwriters wouldn't bind coverage until the hurricane was gone. I didn't want to buy the boat until I had insurance and luckily the buyer was willing to wait).

We are changing her name to "ZION". Wikipedia says, "Zion" stands for a utopian place of unity, peace, and freedom, as opposed to "Babylon", the oppressing and exploiting system of the materialistic modern world and a place of evil" and "a safe spiritual homeland, like in heaven, or a kind of peace of mind in one's present life". The current name is "Double Infinity".

The boat is in Sarasota, FL right now. I've got some survey compliance stuff to address before I can get underway, just little things like the stern light is out, I need to add CO detectors, etc. Nothing major. We are going to try to get her north to Newport before long then down to the Caribbean in November. (Anyone wanna go for a ride?)

In Newport we are replacing the standing rigging, sails (hydranet?), adding the line driver traveler, adding some bunk beds for the boys, and some other smaller things. Then in the spring, we'll dig into some other, bigger changes (solar, batteries, bow addition, etc).

Thanks for all of the advice and input!

Congrats

Bow addition?! Would be a very nice change to those boats, they always looked a little bow tripped and snub nosed to me.

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Great boat name @soma. Congrats again.  Give a shout if you are ever sailing past. 

PS - We are secretly racing. I am hoping I get my repairs done, relaunch and have all systems working before you get the Newport. But you got a pretty fast boat there so I think I am going to lose unless you dally.  Ready, set....

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Congrats Soma!! Nothing better than getting a great boat!!

We spent last week dodging Dorian - gunkholing down the Nova Scotia coast SW of Halifax waiting to see which way she'd go and evaluating hurricane holes. On Thursday morning we were in Shelburne NS and it was obvious the whole coast was going to get whacked, so we left and went straight west to Boothbay ME arriving Friday midday. On Saturday Shelburne saw 60 knots++ and the eye went right over Halifax, we saw 20 knots in Boothbay. Whew, bullet dodged!

Soma - one question on your plan?? Today is Sep. 11 and you want to go North to go South. The trip up plus the projects you mention sound like a dead minimum of 2 months of elapsed time, likely more when you get into the details of when people can really deliver time/materials. And then it's Thanksgiving and the gravity well of family gatherings, and then a short gap to XMas. Are you sure you want to do a winter trip south?? I used to do deliveries in the 80's and did plenty of "south from the Northeast Coast in winter" trips - really not fun. And I don't know your circumstances, but if this is your family's introduction to cruising it might leave a mark. Just saying. Nothing on your list can't be done in Lauderdale, or for that matter Antigua. 

Best wishes with the new boat!!

 

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12 hours ago, soma said:

 

In Newport we are replacing the standing rigging, sails (hydranet?), adding the line driver traveler, adding some bunk beds for the boys, and some other smaller things. Then in the spring, we'll dig into some other, bigger changes (solar, batteries, bow addition, etc).

 

Congrats on closing.  I would vote Hydranet for sails.  The Incidence hydranet main and jib on our Outremer 51 have one circumnavigation and about 38,000 miles on them and still look good. The main is a bit heavy but very durable and reefs well.  I saw that Zephyr, an O55 Light in the Pacific on the way to New Zealand, just got a North 3DI main.  You might see what they think about it.

You picked a good boat.  We crossed the Atlantic with the O55 Light, Charm. They beat us into St. Lucia by a few hours with 3 kids onboard. They are just now starting out across the Indian Ocean.

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13 hours ago, soma said:

We are changing her name to "ZION". Wikipedia says, "Zion" stands for a utopian place of unity, peace, and freedom, as opposed to "Babylon", the oppressing and exploiting system of the materialistic modern world and a place of evil" and "a safe spiritual homeland, like in heaven, or a kind of peace of mind in one's present life".

So "Babylon" stands for our materialistic world, the world that gives us carbon fiber, GPS, Dyneema, hydraulic rams, electric winches, etc.? And at a price that I can afford?

I think my next boat will be named Babylon... :D

Congrats to you! I'm genuinely happy for you.

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5 hours ago, CapDave said:

Congrats Soma!! Nothing better than getting a great boat!!

We spent last week dodging Dorian - gunkholing down the Nova Scotia coast SW of Halifax waiting to see which way she'd go and evaluating hurricane holes. On Thursday morning we were in Shelburne NS and it was obvious the whole coast was going to get whacked, so we left and went straight west to Boothbay ME arriving Friday midday. On Saturday Shelburne saw 60 knots++ and the eye went right over Halifax, we saw 20 knots in Boothbay. Whew, bullet dodged!

Soma - one question on your plan?? Today is Sep. 11 and you want to go North to go South. The trip up plus the projects you mention sound like a dead minimum of 2 months of elapsed time, likely more when you get into the details of when people can really deliver time/materials. And then it's Thanksgiving and the gravity well of family gatherings, and then a short gap to XMas. Are you sure you want to do a winter trip south?? I used to do deliveries in the 80's and did plenty of "south from the Northeast Coast in winter" trips - really not fun. And I don't know your circumstances, but if this is your family's introduction to cruising it might leave a mark. Just saying. Nothing on your list can't be done in Lauderdale, or for that matter Antigua. 

Best wishes with the new boat!!

 

The trip south to the Islands will hardly be an 'introduction' to SOMA and clan... 

     Count me in for the trip South SOMA, been a long time since I've visited St John. We might even discuss catamaran builds along the way...

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On 1/13/2019 at 6:33 AM, ProaSailor said:

It certainly is a beast!  It made me go back and take a closer look at Chris White's Hammerhead 54 trimaran: https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/hammerhead-54

Specifications

Length Overall 54'
Beam 34' 6"
Draft 2' 6" board up
9'     board down
Sail Area Mainsail 858 sq ft
Sail Area Jib 492 sq ft
Sail Area Staysail 250 sq ft
Masthead to Design Waterline 64'
Displacement 17,000 lbs
Power Inboard diesel

Photos: https://chriswhitedesigns.smugmug.com/CUSTOM-POWER-TRIMARANS/Trimarans/Hammerhead-54/

hammerhead_cockpit.thumb.jpg.97b8500080d0ae31acd61e5a446fdcb9.jpg

It has a spacious center cockpit with an aft cabin, a double cabin forward, a surprisingly large galley and displaces 8.5 tons.  I lifted the plan drawing below (GIMP'ed) from here:
https://www.chriswhitedesigns.com/images/HH54/Yachting.hh54.review.pdf

hammerhead54_plan_2019Jan12.thumb.png.0085e0dceab85d48469e29cdb382d201.png

The galley floor is below the "bridge deck" level.  Flare in the main hull makes the central space 12 feet wide (at head height).

hammerhead_galley.thumb.jpg.b14586c124aa5fe71fb822ebab038ddc.jpg

Having struggled for decades trying to cram four double berths, a big galley and salon into a ~70' proa, I am intimately familiar with the challenge.  One big part of the problem for me has been the passageways needed to get forward of the beams...

 

 

 

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I did nearly all the mods and updates on this HH54 prior to her 2x Singlehanded Transpacs and 5 year circumnavigation.    Unlike the image above to the left as you enter the main cabin is the large (3x people can fit) nav station.....   the galley takes the whole right side of the cabin.   Great ocean boat.   Obviously not spacious like a 50ft cat but it certainly clicks off the miles.   Boat is currently in NorCal.

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Part 3 - The owner's life story, mostly as related to sailing.  Very interesting, with bits about Dick Newick and Walter Greene.

More on John Barry:

https://www.facebook.com/johnbarryiii

Pagosa crew sets off on round-the-world sailing adventure
By John Barry III
http://www.pagosasun.com/2012/12/27/pagosa-crew-sets-off-on-round-the-world-sailing-adventure/

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On 9/23/2019 at 4:26 AM, ProaSailor said:

Part 3 - The owner's life story, mostly as related to sailing.  Very interesting, with bits about Dick Newick and Walter Greene.

More on John Barry:

https://www.facebook.com/johnbarryiii

Pagosa crew sets off on round-the-world sailing adventure
By John Barry III
http://www.pagosasun.com/2012/12/27/pagosa-crew-sets-off-on-round-the-world-sailing-adventure/

Great interview.. the skipper sounds awesome and the boat is beautiful.

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On 9/10/2019 at 11:30 PM, Keith said:

Congrats....

This thread needs a little music.

 

 Great song. Hootie (Darius) comes up our way every year to raise money for our orthopedic center,. Nice show; would be even better if he cut the country crap out ;-)

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On 9/10/2019 at 11:58 PM, soma said:

Well, it took a little longer than I'd hoped but I officially closed on my 2002 Outremer 55 today. (We would've closed a couple of weeks earlier but Dorian was out there so insurance underwriters wouldn't bind coverage until the hurricane was gone. I didn't want to buy the boat until I had insurance and luckily the buyer was willing to wait).

We are changing her name to "ZION". Wikipedia says, "Zion" stands for a utopian place of unity, peace, and freedom, as opposed to "Babylon", the oppressing and exploiting system of the materialistic modern world and a place of evil" and "a safe spiritual homeland, like in heaven, or a kind of peace of mind in one's present life". The current name is "Double Infinity".

The boat is in Sarasota, FL right now. I've got some survey compliance stuff to address before I can get underway, just little things like the stern light is out, I need to add CO detectors, etc. Nothing major. We are going to try to get her north to Newport before long then down to the Caribbean in November. (Anyone wanna go for a ride?)

In Newport we are replacing the standing rigging, sails (hydranet?), adding the line driver traveler, adding some bunk beds for the boys, and some other smaller things. Then in the spring, we'll dig into some other, bigger changes (solar, batteries, bow addition, etc).

Thanks for all of the advice and input!

Have you left yet?

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1 hour ago, hannibalhouse said:

Have you left yet?

Yup. Sailed from Sarasota to Cape Canaveral last week. Mer and the boys came down last weekend and we had a bunch of friends out for a cruise on Sunday. Welcome out of the water tomorrow for about a month of refit work. Coppercoat bottom, new tramps, new standing rigging, new sails, and some minor interior mods. 

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1 hour ago, soma said:

Yup. Sailed from Sarasota to Cape Canaveral last week. Mer and the boys came down last weekend and we had a bunch of friends out for a cruise on Sunday. Welcome out of the water tomorrow for about a month of refit work. Coppercoat bottom, new tramps, new standing rigging, new sails, and some minor interior mods. 

What marina you at?  We did a crap ton of work at the one in canal.  Even got to meet a sheriff, LOL.  There was another in the harbor that had a wide travel lift and I assume you are there.  Good luck and have fun. Glad its going well so far.

 

 

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@soma

can you comment on the hull stiffness of your Outremer 55, does it ever squeak or any other noises as indicator of hull compression in rough seas?

 

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Hi Soma,

Just finished a video call with Joe, the owner of the O55 LIGHT "Charm" that I have been very keen on. He reckons that at 6'3" I'll be too tall for the boat. I can't remember if Zion is a Light or Standard. I've only been aboard Standards so until I am able to fly to go see her I was wondering if you had any input on head room in the one vs the other?

Thanks!

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9 hours ago, Insolent said:

Hi Soma,

Just finished a video call with Joe, the owner of the O55 LIGHT "Charm" that I have been very keen on. He reckons that at 6'3" I'll be too tall for the boat. I can't remember if Zion is a Light or Standard. I've only been aboard Standards so until I am able to fly to go see her I was wondering if you had any input on head room in the one vs the other?

Thanks!

I don’t know about the Light...mine’s a Standard. My wife is 6’2” and has no issues with headroom on our boat. I’d assume the headroom in the hulls is equivalent. I can’t say the same about the deckhouse, though, without having been aboard. I did see Charm last month, though. She looked good. We were all in sorta lockdown mode, though, so I only hung on to the toerail.  

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On 6/3/2020 at 12:41 AM, Insolent said:

Hi Soma,

Just finished a video call with Joe, the owner of the O55 LIGHT "Charm" that I have been very keen on. He reckons that at 6'3" I'll be too tall for the boat. I can't remember if Zion is a Light or Standard. I've only been aboard Standards so until I am able to fly to go see her I was wondering if you had any input on head room in the one vs the other?

Thanks!

That boat is in good shape. Our daughters met in St John and they became best friends. I think that the headroom is fine IMHO. I'm 6'4".

Joe just finished his circumnavigation. Very nice family.

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On 7/31/2019 at 12:54 PM, soma said:

Hey soma, any reason you chose AGM over Li-po? And have you estimated the weight cost of A/C?

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5 hours ago, EarthBM said:

Hey soma, any reason you chose AGM over Li-po? And have you estimated the weight cost of A/C?

The Firefly batteries are about $400 each for 115ahr group 31’s. They have a 20% discharge floor (vs 50% for typical AGM) and they can charge faster than I can feed them. A comparable group 31 lifepo battery is about 4x the cost. There’s also the cost of my labor. The Firefly were truly drop in. No BMS, no need to overthink cable length, no changes to charging sources (though I did have to change some settings in my MPPT controllers). Given a bigger budget I would’ve gone for Li (maybe) but Firefly get me 90% of the way there for 25% the cost. 
 

As for aircon, it’s about 60 lbs. We decided that since we aren’t going north this year we needed something for the siesta time of the day. The midday heat and sun can be oppressive and, with trying to homeschool, that midday part of the day is perfect for school (if the boat is cool enough). 
 

Last note, f*** flexible solar panels. I’ve had nothing but issues with them. I’ve installed them on numerous GB’s snd they’ve been a nightmare. They’re 10x the cost, 1/5th the lifespan, and they’re a bitch to install. We chased weight quite aggressively on GBs but now that I’m free of that constraint I can see the light. The 17 year old rigid panels that I removed last week were still putting out 100% of their rated capacity the day before I removed them! I’m doubling my installed solar. The new panels are 50% more efficient and I'm using more space. 

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31 minutes ago, soma said:

The Firefly batteries are about $400 each for 115ahr group 31’s. They have a 20% discharge floor (vs 50% for typical AGM) and they can charge faster than I can feed them. A comparable group 31 lifepo battery is about 4x the cost. There’s also the cost of my labor. The Firefly were truly drop in. No BMS, no need to overthink cable length, no changes to charging sources (though I did have to change some settings in my MPPT controllers). Given a bigger budget I would’ve gone for Li (maybe) but Firefly get me 90% of the way there for 25% the cost. 
 

As for aircon, it’s about 60 lbs. We decided that since we aren’t going north this year we needed something for the siesta time of the day. The midday heat and sun can be oppressive and, with trying to homeschool, that midday part of the day is perfect for school (if the boat is cool enough). 
 

Last note, f*** flexible solar panels. I’ve had nothing but issues with them. I’ve installed them on numerous GB’s snd they’ve been a nightmare. They’re 10x the cost, 1/5th the lifespan, and they’re a bitch to install. We chased weight quite aggressively on GBs but now that I’m free of that constraint I can see the light. The 17 year old rigid panels that I removed last week were still putting out 100% of their rated capacity the day before I removed them! I’m doubling my installed solar. The new panels are 50% more efficient and I'm using more space. 

Are those the Solbian panels? Or some other brand? I was looking at the weight delta - significant.

I am extremely familiar with the back story on Firefly, as in my working life it crossed my desk numerous times as an investment opportunity - on which I passed every time. Right decision so far from that perspective. Definitely of some interest now for the exact reasons Soma names, but - there are so few stories from people actually using them for any length of time. Only time will tell on real world cycling and calendar life, and partial state of charge behavior and etc. etc. Anybody have a number of years on a set willing to share?

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We have five years on our Firefly's. Three group 31batteries, 200 watts of solar and a 165amp alternator. We live aboard and have a very simple electrical system. Solar will supply our needs at the dock (no shore power). In the morning our state of charge is 55 to 60%, in the evening it is 75 to 80%. We rarely see anything above 90% state of charge as it involves a lot of motoring. Only once in five years have we hit 100%. I have been trying to kill them so that I could install lithium but.......

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1 hour ago, Morello said:

We have five years on our Firefly's. Three group 31batteries, 200 watts of solar and a 165amp alternator. We live aboard and have a very simple electrical system. Solar will supply our needs at the dock (no shore power). In the morning our state of charge is 55 to 60%, in the evening it is 75 to 80%. We rarely see anything above 90% state of charge as it involves a lot of motoring. Only once in five years have we hit 100%. I have been trying to kill them so that I could install lithium but.......

Thanks - that's amazing!!! Any PbA flooded or AGM batteries would be stone dead after that, I'm pretty sure!

Time is on our side with Lithium though - in the EV world NMC cells at high volume are at $90/KWh. Those prices will eventually trickle down. Lithionics LiFePo4 (cheaper ingredients than NMC) batteries are selling for about $1,000/KWh, and it doesn't cost that much to package the cells up into batteries, maybe hand built at such low volumes absolute max $150/KWh....especially since they sell their BMS separately for $2,700.

I'm seeing more "drop in lithium" with declining prices - which I think is ok for simple systems as long as you're careful to arrange a charge interruption circuit. Without that if the BMS inside the box triggers the cells offline you can have an alternator/solar/windgen meltdown. For larger or more complex systems I'd be wary of these drop-ins - especially the really cheap ones - rapid oxidation accompanied by self-disassembly is a real risk.

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Im excited by the 1,000,000 mile battery technology that Tesla announced. 

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13 hours ago, soma said:

Im excited by the 1,000,000 mile battery technology that Tesla announced. 

1884 - "Mr. Edison himself has declared that this question of storage-batteries has developed the most remarkable of man's latent capacity for lying."

So a decent size pack these days will give an EV 250 miles. That's 4,000 cycles for 1,000,000 miles. Oversize the pack 20-25% so you shallow cycle it for the 250 miles, managed by the onboard software which doesn't permit using the full capacity - and presto! 1M miles. Then you hide the extra mass/volume/cost inside your existing learning curve, and it kind of works. And the PR is great......!!

The industry is struggling with eliminating Cobalt for the next cost-down. Tesla with NCA, others with NCM. They're starting to figure out the cycling, but they can't get past safety at all so far.

 

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Few cars will make it to 1,000,000 miles, even we’ll built Tesla’s. Presumably there will be a long afterlife for those battery banks in utility scale power storage, but also maybe residential and marine applications. 

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3 minutes ago, soma said:

Few cars will make it to 1,000,000 miles, even we’ll built Tesla’s. Presumably there will be a long afterlife for those battery banks in utility scale power storage, but also maybe residential and marine applications. 

Sigh.....I've been hearing this theory for 15 years, and I've seen probably 30 business plans for startups wanting to launch this business. The numbers absolutely don't work. I can explain in detail, but it's way beyond the scope of this thread.....

I can think of one way cell re-use might work - Auto OEM's sell transportation by the mile, and they own the battery pack and provide a performance/range guarantee. You pay a base monthly fee for vehicle access, plus a variable monthly fee for miles driven. If the vehicle can't attain the performance/range guarantee (per the onboard software) then you get a "new" pack swapped in. Then the numbers might work to re-use cells from an old car to a new one, because you don't care you're driving a car with "used" batteries because you're paying by the mile and don't own the pack. Same when you want to sell the car.

I've tried a lot, and people way smarter than me have tried a lot, but re-using cells to different applications just doesn't pencil. It works personally - you take the pack out of your car before sending it to the crusher, and use it at your house yourself. But industrial scale it doesn't work techno-economically.

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