mookiesurfs

OK, I'll do it: Foiling Viper

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I guess I'm having this conversation with myself, then. 

It looks like the foiling Viper is all things to all people, which brings to mind the old saw: Jack of all trades, master of none.  But, they seem to have done a pretty thorough job of mitigating any negative impacts of the foiling mod, whether you sail it floating or foiling. The only permanent downside seems to be the weight of an extra trunk, but the class rule weight miiight have already have had room for that weight, depending on the build choices, so there may be no real penalty for being dual mode capable.  I'm interested, and if it pans out would be happy to look at getting one.

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Interesting as this video is saying something completely different to that of their recent F18 vid which showed the foiling and vertical foil in the same position. If the Viper has to have the foil further forward then almost certainly the F18 would also need it. Mmmm

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I read somewhere that the optimum foiling trunk placement for the 16 and 18 was forward of the current straight board trunk.

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6 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

Interesting as this video is saying something completely different to that of their recent F18 vid which showed the foiling and vertical foil in the same position. If the Viper has to have the foil further forward then almost certainly the F18 would also need it. Mmmm

On the F18 they moved the board forward for both versions.

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2 hours ago, mookiesurfs said:

I read somewhere that the optimum foiling trunk placement for the 16 and 18 was forward of the current straight board trunk.

On the A Class it's like 400mm different or something, I was surprised no one building the F18's didn't just keep the normal straight trunks and build an extra case forward, I mean they're pretty comfy to build within the weight limit... and I can't see a little extra weight/re-inforcing in that area hurting the boats. Then you could just have a light foam filler for the big case when racing in normal mode so your cases don't fill up with water like the nacra's. It would also mean just taking the boards/rudders out and putting the new ones in, none of this case swapping crap.

I'll go one further...

How about using both boards? All those long distance races straight boards floating upwind, Z boards foiling downwind?

5 minutes ago, SCARECROW said:

On the F18 they moved the board forward for both versions.

I wonder how that changes the boats performance and feel...

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Just now, darth reapius said:

I wonder how that changes the boats performance and feel...

brings it in line with the newer boats.  

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23 hours ago, SCARECROW said:

brings it in line with the newer boats.  

Assuming then it's still aft of what should be the optimum foiling placement... 

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On 1/7/2019 at 9:08 PM, SCARECROW said:

On the F18 they moved the board forward for both versions.

They moved the trunk to the location Martin Fischer has determined to be optimal, with a few World Championship titles on the Phantom F18 and eXploder Scorpion to prove the validity. They also reduced the chord length of the boards down to 200mm I believe (don't hold me to that). This is in line with the foils on the Scorpion but the Scorpion has a higher aspect rudder package and IMO the best hull shape possible in a F18 with a lot more reserve margin than the C2 while staying narrow so as to not be sticky in the light, plus it uses a rounded section forward to minimize chop. The C2 is still very competitive and a good choice for teams sailing light and the convertible trunk is attractive.

Some top foiling sailors who own F18's as well as A's have said the foiling board needs to be next to the front beam or possibly in front of it. There may be some validity to that as the C.P of the boards in foiling mode moves aft as the rudders are providing much more side force than in straight board mode.

Switching between straight boards and foiling isn't trivial regardless as often you are talking two sets of gudgeons and mounting holes for the rudders. The nice thing about the F16 package is the price to add the straight boards is pretty reasonable, 3,000 euros for a kite, 2 daggerboards and 2 rudders. Trouble is the F16 class is nearly 100% recreational here in the U.S and the boat is too small for 2 american adults to really sail.

C-board A-Cats have the boards 200mm back from the foiling trunks but no one has really tried the C-boards further forward competitively; eXploder copied the Mastrorm M5 for their foil and beam location on the new boat.

Carrying two sets of daggerboards in a race is not practical, the Vampire uses centerboards (easy to stow) and swing down t-foils which is a good solution for mixed conditions. My experience with Z boards is they are very marginally more draggy than straight boards, its the big t-foil rudders that bite.

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Sam, it might be more accurate to say that the F16 can be undersized for racing with two adult American males.  It's pretty well suited for anything under that, including M/F teams and European M/M teams, for example.  It seems to stay competitive up to around 150 kg crew weight, imo, and depending on the usual factors.

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1 hour ago, mookiesurfs said:

Sam, it might be more accurate to say that the F16 can be undersized for racing with two adult American males.  It's pretty well suited for anything under that, including M/F teams and European M/M teams, for example.  It seems to stay competitive up to around 150 kg crew weight, imo, and depending on the usual factors.

That is fair, but I personally find the platform space constrained in floating mode and when you add foiling to the game that is even more so IMO as you are still relying on body weight shifting to help with pitch stability and most definitely lateral stability while on foils. To that ends, it's already a do-anything platform with no real home and lots of competition (Nacra 15, Nacra 17, F18). Racing fleets are pretty small these days; this may open the class open to foiling and maybe grow those fleets again, I say maybe as it is class leadership and putting together fun, top notch regattas that drives fleet size up, while more advanced tech can do the opposite.

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2 hours ago, samc99us said:

That is fair, but I personally find the platform space constrained in floating mode and when you add foiling to the game that is even more so IMO as you are still relying on body weight shifting to help with pitch stability and most definitely lateral stability while on foils. To that ends, it's already a do-anything platform with no real home and lots of competition (Nacra 15, Nacra 17, F18). Racing fleets are pretty small these days; this may open the class open to foiling and maybe grow those fleets again, I say maybe as it is class leadership and putting together fun, top notch regattas that drives fleet size up, while more advanced tech can do the opposite.

Fair enough.  I will say, coming from the Taipan, we find the Falcon F-16 positively expansive.  Seriously. And, it's worth it just to not listen to Mrs up front bitching about the jib blocks - every single tack.  Also, the damn thing drives like a Cadillac compared to the Taipan. If you look up twitchy in the dictionary, there's a picture of a Taipan.  I'm not sure I like it better than the Taipan yet, but like I said Mrs definitely does, and she and I sailing together is the primary goal..

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2 folks on a Taipan is small. The Falcon and Viper carry weight well with their buoyant hulls, I just find in a blow they run out of bow as the boats are short relative to rig length. The foils should help with that a good bit.

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The original F16 Stealth had T foils on the rudder and were just so much better at higher speeds and in a blow where you could drive them right into a wave and the water would come down the back decks without any thought of a pitch pole, many took them off in the in the light and used straight boards but I always felt there was only a marginal difference. The big warning was a change in sound as the T foil began to really work hard as the nose went down and often you then could just go downwind a bit more and the T foil would settle the boat down into a more horizontal attitude. Great boats just so so so much ahead of their time.

It would be interesting to now sail those same boats with a C foil with a tiny bit of vertical on the tip ?

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12 hours ago, Waynemarlow said:

The original F16 Stealth had T foils on the rudder and were just so much better at higher speeds and in a blow where you could drive them right into a wave and the water would come down the back decks without any thought of a pitch pole, many took them off in the in the light and used straight boards but I always felt there was only a marginal difference. The big warning was a change in sound as the T foil began to really work hard as the nose went down and often you then could just go downwind a bit more and the T foil would settle the boat down into a more horizontal attitude. Great boats just so so so much ahead of their time.

It would be interesting to now sail those same boats with a C foil with a tiny bit of vertical on the tip ?

I loved the winglets on my taipan before they were outlawed.  I think they reduced top speed but made it easier to maintain higher averages.  Definately made pushing the boat hard on runs and reaches less nervous.

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On 1/8/2019 at 1:08 PM, SCARECROW said:

On the F18 they moved the board forward for both versions.

The C2 boards were moved forward to balance out the boat better with the Deck Sweeper as they felt it moved the centre of balance forward.

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On 1/10/2019 at 1:10 PM, Waynemarlow said:

The original F16 Stealth had T foils on the rudder and were just so much better at higher speeds and in a blow where you could drive them right into a wave and the water would come down the back decks without any thought of a pitch pole, many took them off in the in the light and used straight boards but I always felt there was only a marginal difference. The big warning was a change in sound as the T foil began to really work hard as the nose went down and often you then could just go downwind a bit more and the T foil would settle the boat down into a more horizontal attitude. Great boats just so so so much ahead of their time.

It would be interesting to now sail those same boats with a C foil with a tiny bit of vertical on the tip ?

Glad to hear from the horses mouth that what looked fast really was. Where did the builder of those end up?

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On 1/11/2019 at 5:05 PM, Tornado_ALIVE said:

The C2 boards were moved forward to balance out the boat better with the Deck Sweeper as they felt it moved the centre of balance forward.

Maybe that is the justification being given, but Dr. Fischer and the Phantom F18 team did a lot of research and testing on daggerboard and main beam position circa 2011 and settled on the location used on the Wildcat (close anyway) and World Champ Phantom F18 that has now been copied by the eXploder Scorpion team. I think the Edge found a similar position independently around the same time. All of this happened before the DS sail development. https://www.catsailingnews.com/2012/12/design-talk-phantom-f18-in-detail.html

This puts the leading edge of the daggerboard 48cm aft of the center of the main beam; I don't know where the Viper and C2 are (new vs. old) on this subject. I can also say the bigger chord of the Scorpion boards at 20cm is a nice change from the 18cm or so Infusion Mk. 2 boards that while slippery can stall and are pretty sensitive to board height. Part of this is also the high aspect rudder package on the Phantom and Scorpion, if Goodall moved the boards forward this will load the rudders some more and that design needs to be looked at closely IMO; Cirrus, Scorpion, Phantom and even the Edge and Infusion use a deeper, higher aspect blade than the C2.

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4 hours ago, samc99us said:

Glad to hear from the horses mouth that what looked fast really was. Where did the builder of those end up?

Sadly didn't make it as a manufacturer, I always put it down to although the boats were a bit agricultural in build quality, the earliest boats were just as fast as the latest boats and therefore why would you buy a new one. They were right on class weight, had carbon masts, T Foils, great sails and weren't expensive, just we all bought one and then kept them for many years and therefore there was no secondhand market and those interested in the F16 class had to buy new rather than dip there toes in with an older second hand boat.

He had molds for an F18 as well but ran out of ooomph and sold off all the molds.

The builder was a top flight Tornado sailor and whopped everybody despite the fact he would turn up having not sailed for 9 months, borrowed a boat he had never sailed on before and still win by hundreds of yards. I think he still is doing the same thing in the UK Dart fleet. Truely a gifted sailor.

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Hello,

I saw this post a few months ago and made an effort to come back to it after we took a Viper Foiler/Convertible for a spin at the F16 Europeans. The boat feels very much the same as the standard Viper till it lifts the leeward hull out of the water and then its a bit like hitting the nitrous button while munching a big mac in one hand and steering with a supersized coke in the other. The skipper starts floating about and bumping into you and you work 3 times harder on the main to keep from dropping into the wet stuff to windward.

We foiled the boat upwind and my skipper foiled it off the breeze with the spinnaker as I sipped beers. Granted we did not get to spend hours on it - only a few minutes, but it was enough for Goodall to secure an order for one.

Was it fun? Yes!

Did we fall off a lot? Yes

Did we get hurt? No

Is the convertible package competitive in fleet racing with straight boards? That remains to be seen and depends on the final foil casing sealing and how Goodall keep the water from accumulating in the case in my opinion.

In speaking with folks who have sailed  the Nacra 17, A Class and the Viper they have high regard for the performance characteristics of the Viper. The basic settings seem to be worked out and the thing gets up and goes without too much effort. Its lighter than the N17 and N15 so still remains a viable one man boat that is a good two man boat.

Will these boats eventually have fleet foiling races, probably not. They will however be a weapon at an open cat type event. Foiling for fun and using the same platform to race I think is the holy grail of windsports. Few can say they have nailed this. The F16 seems to be right on the money here. With 54 boats at the European Championships it also appears the class is making a comeback.

 

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