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4 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Slight correction - we already have PARTS of that barrier - the BP has had a long-term infrastructure improvement plan, part of which was expanding the existing physical barrier, for in excess of 10 years. 

You might want to alert Joker, he seems to be a bit lost on this point.  Might as well include Trump in that alert. 

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I would think the second month of missed rent.  Which is 7 weeks away 

HAHAHAHAHAHA.    Any landlord I know (myself included in the past) puts up the 3-day notice to pay or quit the moment the rent is due and not received.  The clock for an eviction doesn't start until they do.    If the landlord has a mortgage on that rental property will their bank let them off the hook for months?    Trumptarded thinking

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5 minutes ago, solosailor said:

HAHAHAHAHAHA.    Any landlord I know (myself included in the past) puts up the 3-day notice to pay or quit the moment the rent is due and not received.  The clock for an eviction doesn't start until they do.    If the landlord has a mortgage on that rental property will their bank let them off the hook for months?    Trumptarded thinking

Yeah, I think we've pretty much established that Joker is just making shit up as he goes and doesn't have any real experience in the financial world.

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13 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

You might want to alert Joker, he seems to be a bit lost on this point.  Might as well include Trump in that alert. 

You are clearly misinformed or being deliberately obtuse.  

There are plenty of open areas along the border that have either no barrier or very low fencing.  Those are the areas that we are discussing 

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1 minute ago, The Joker said:

You are clearly misinformed or being deliberately obtuse.  

There are plenty of open areas along the border that have either no barrier or very low fencing.  Those are the areas that we are discussing 

There are plenty of open areas that are just that. Open. No roads, no nothing. Those are the areas that nobody (except you and your elk) want to throw money at.  Perhaps if you left the world of shit* where you reside and visited the southern border you wouldn't be so ignorant.

*your words.

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3 minutes ago, The Joker said:

You are clearly misinformed or being deliberately obtuse.  

There are plenty of open areas along the border that have either no barrier or very low fencing.  Those are the areas that we are discussing 

Who is discussing?  All he's said is 'give me $5.7B, and trust me" No plans, no details, no specific locations, no counter offers, no concessions, no negotiation is happening at all.

Trump needs to learn more techniques than "My way or the highway."  

 

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1 minute ago, Kirwan said:

Who is discussing?  All he's said is 'give me $5.7B, and trust me" No plans, no details, no specific locations, no counter offers, no concessions, no negotiation is happening at all.

Trump needs to learn more techniques than "My way or the highway."  

 

He is the author of the misprinted book titled "The art of the steal".

 

 He does not negotiate, he demands, and if he doesn't get what he demands, he either sues, or walks away.

There is no subtle. There is not give and take. It is all take, and eventually this will burn his ass.

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You guys must have some shitty tenants if you start the eviction the first day it’s late.  My parents had over 70 apartments I have owned buildings with tenants.  I pay rent for kids in college (off campus).  Never ever heard of starting eviction day one. 

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They don't start evictions on day one.   You do provide the legal notices in a timely fashion so if they don't make good on the amount due you can evict them......   eventually.   Usually many months into the process.   If you don't put up the first notice the clock doesn't start.    

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3 minutes ago, The Joker said:

You guys must have some shitty tenants if you start the eviction the first day it’s late.  My parents had over 70 apartments I have owned buildings with tenants.  I pay rent for kids in college (off campus).  Never ever heard of starting eviction day one. 

Are you posting to the correct thread, or just going off subject?

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1 minute ago, solosailor said:

They don't start evictions on day one.   You do provide the legal notices in a timely fashion so if they don't make good on the amount due you can evict them......   eventually.   Usually many months into the process.   If you don't put up the first notice the clock doesn't start.    

I’m aware of that.  As a landlord I would reach out after a few days to find out what is going on.  You have to know your tenants.  Some may get the 3 day notice others not as quickly. 

Regardless that is still three weeks away for those renting.  Could be longer or shorter with a mortgage payment.

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1 hour ago, d'ranger said:

End the stupid War on Drugs and spend that money (not the extra wall $) and put it towards treatment programs while removing the profits from the cartels which also removes much of the reasons why people are leaving those countries.  I know, makes too much sense.

All it would take if for people to start voting that way.

I did. Have you?

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2 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Are you posting to the correct thread, or just going off subject?

I wasn’t the one that started talking about evicting renters on day one. 

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2 minutes ago, The Joker said:

I wasn’t the one that started talking about evicting renters on day one. 

I apologize. I wasn't paying attention to the unquoted post 6 posts before yours.

 Context helps.

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5 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

All it would take if for people to start voting that way.

I did. Have you?

Only for as long as I can remember. But thanks for asking. Just because I ignore you most of the time doesn't mean I don't agree with you some of the time.

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Slight correction - we already have PARTS of that barrier - the BP has had a long-term infrastructure improvement plan, part of which was expanding the existing physical barrier, for in excess of 10 years. 

So why the emergency now?

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3 hours ago, The Joker said:

That’s not what he was stating.  He is using the simple majority vote  to state the GOP doesn’t support the wall.  

Do you think the GOP Should get rid of the 60 vote filibuster rule to pass legislation?

Where in his post you responded to does he mention votes, much less “simple majority”?

22 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

A Senate controlled by the Republicans. Which is why I have said "Republicans didn't give Trump what he wanted, why should the Democrats?". I notice that's a question none of Donnie's supporters want to touch

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27 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

So why the emergency now?

Well, It is common parenting practice to not give in to a toddler's tantrum.  Some toddlers then hold their breath until they turn blue.  

Orange and blue are a terrible color combination. That alone could create an aesthetic emergency.  And lead to this:

Screen Shot 2019-01-10 at 1.19.04 PM.png

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1 minute ago, Raz'r said:

So why the emergency now?

I don't think it *is* an emergency, nor do I think that Trump is correct in shutting the government down over it. I do indeed believe that we need to improve border security, and I'm pissed at Trump for his approach, and I'm pissed at the D & R leadership for not being smart enough, interested enough in the good of the country to put that above partisan politics and putting something out that they could both work with, described in a way that Trump, who I doubt ever read more than the summary description of anything, could be encouraged to sign.  Instead?  Both parties' leadership chose "Party Win" over the good of the country.    

I think that a winning approach to the next couple of campaigns would be "I'm not an incumbent". 

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3 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I don't think it *is* an emergency, nor do I think that Trump is correct in shutting the government down over it. I do indeed believe that we need to improve border security, and I'm pissed at Trump for his approach, and I'm pissed at the D & R leadership for not being smart enough, interested enough in the good of the country to put that above partisan politics and putting something out that they could both work with, described in a way that Trump, who I doubt ever read more than the summary description of anything, could be encouraged to sign.  Instead?  Both parties' leadership chose "Party Win" over the good of the country.    

I think that a winning approach to the next couple of campaigns would be "I'm not an incumbent". 

There is plenty in the D&R proposal to improve "border security".   

You give in to a toddler's tantrum and you pretty much guarantee he'll have another one. 

The shut down is costing 1.2 billion dollars and your solution is to go ahead and buy a 5.7 billion dollar lollipop. 

Rule One:  Never enable an out-of-control, petulant narcissistic child.  

 

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3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

There is plenty in the D&R proposal to improve "border security".   

You give in to a toddler's tantrum and you pretty much guarantee he'll have another one. 

The shut down is costing 1.2 billion dollars and your solution is to go ahead and buy a 5.7 billion dollar lollipop. 

Rule One:  Never enable an out-of-control, petulant narcissistic child.  

There are a myriad of ways to approach that - you can let the kid sit there in the restaurant flinging spaghetti all over the other patrons, kicking glasses off the table,  or pick him up and take him outside to warm his behind, or try to curb the behavior thru distraction.   While they're throwing a tantrum, they aren't going to listen or respond to "normal inputs".

Should we have to even discuss such tactics w/r/t a sitting President? The House Speaker?  Hell no - but, I don't think that sitting back and letting him fling Spaghetti is the best approach either. 

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14 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

There are a myriad of ways to approach that - you can let the kid sit there in the restaurant flinging spaghetti all over the other patrons, kicking glasses off the table,  or pick him up and take him outside to warm his behind, or try to curb the behavior thru distraction.   While they're throwing a tantrum, they aren't going to listen or respond to "normal inputs".

Should we have to even discuss such tactics w/r/t a sitting President? The House Speaker?  Hell no - but, I don't think that sitting back and letting him fling Spaghetti is the best approach either. 

The difference is that in one case it's a toddler who really isn't expected to be mature, vs a 72 year old man who is.

 

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16 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

There are a myriad of ways to approach that - you can let the kid sit there in the restaurant flinging spaghetti all over the other patrons, kicking glasses off the table,  or pick him up and take him outside to warm his behind, or try to curb the behavior thru distraction.   While they're throwing a tantrum, they aren't going to listen or respond to "normal inputs".

Should we have to even discuss such tactics w/r/t a sitting President? The House Speaker?  Hell no - but, I don't think that sitting back and letting him fling Spaghetti is the best approach either. 

The R leadership are the ones letting him fling the pasta. The D's have no control over Trump.

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2 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

The difference is that in one case it's a toddler who really isn't expected to be mature, vs a 72 year old man who is.

 

No argument - but, as the saying goes "It is what it is" - if we can't expect Trump to respond to normal conversation, do we let everything go, or do we expect the others who are supposedly adults in the room to figure out a way forward?  

Before O pipes up, I'm not blaming Pelosi and the Ds for starting this mess, I *do* blame leaders in both parties for apparently being more interested in partisan points than a fix for perpetuating it. 

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30 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I don't think it *is* an emergency, nor do I think that Trump is correct in shutting the government down over it. I do indeed believe that we need to improve border security, and I'm pissed at Trump for his approach, and I'm pissed at the D & R leadership for not being smart enough, interested enough in the good of the country to put that above partisan politics and putting something out that they could both work with, described in a way that Trump, who I doubt ever read more than the summary description of anything, could be encouraged to sign.  Instead?  Both parties' leadership chose "Party Win" over the good of the country.    

I think that a winning approach to the next couple of campaigns would be "I'm not an incumbent". 

They did. A bipartisan bill was approved, then yanked when Trump threatened veto. Last I heard Nancy was willing to send the Ryan bill that was passed in a bi-partisan way back to the senate.

This is less about party and more about separation of powers.

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35 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

No argument - but, as the saying goes "It is what it is" - if we can't expect Trump to respond to normal conversation, do we let everything go, or do we expect the others who are supposedly adults in the room to figure out a way forward?  

Before O pipes up, I'm not blaming Pelosi and the Ds for starting this mess, I *do* blame leaders in both parties for apparently being more interested in partisan points than a fix for perpetuating it. 

What's your solution? Placate the toddler to the tune of $5Billion? 

Remember, unlike a toddler, Trump will crow about this 'VICTORY' and feel emboldened to hold the country ransom for his next manufactured crisis.  

Personally, I feel the proper approach to a BULLY is to walk up and punch him in the nose, rather than try to play nice.  Pelosi is just the bitch for that job. 

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5 hours ago, The Joker said:

That’s not what he was stating.  He is using the simple majority vote  to state the GOP doesn’t support the wall.  

No, that was not what he was stating. I was stating that the Republicans controlled the Senate. Fact. That they could have voted for the the wall if they wanted to. Fact. They didn't. Fact. They are now complaining about the Democrats giving Trump the same money they agreed to give him. Fact.

You said they couldn't give Trump the wall because they didn't control the senate. You were wrong. All your bluster since then has been flailing about trying to avoid backing down an inch from an incorrect position. You could have agreed with me, stated they did control the Senate but they shouldn't have used that control to pass the wall. However, weak men like you cannot handle backing down an inch, no matter how stupid it makes them look, so we get you yapping away trying to argue something no-one else is.

 

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4 hours ago, The Joker said:

We have had multiple shut downs in the past.

And this is the longest/worst one so far. Or did you forget that?

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3 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Slight correction - we already have PARTS of that barrier - the BP has had a long-term infrastructure improvement plan, part of which was expanding the existing physical barrier, for in excess of 10 years. 

Correct, and money for it's maintenance and extension was already included in the bill offered to Trump. He refuses to accept anything but his $5 billion dollar wall.

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2 hours ago, The Joker said:

You guys must have some shitty tenants if you start the eviction the first day it’s late.  My parents had over 70 apartments I have owned buildings with tenants.  I pay rent for kids in college (off campus).  Never ever heard of starting eviction day one. 

And there you have it folks. Joker was either born with the silver spoon up his ass or likes to fantasise about it. 

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2 hours ago, The Joker said:

You guys must have some shitty tenants if you start the eviction the first day it’s late.  My parents had over 70 apartments I have owned buildings with tenants.  I pay rent for kids in college (off campus).  Never ever heard of starting eviction day one. 

Just another Republican born rich that thinks people should pull themselves up by their own boot straps.

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4 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

And there you have it folks. Joker was either born with the silver spoon up his ass or likes to fantasise about it. 

It’s pure fantasy he’s just a raging asshole in the vein of dog or marakey.  Who’s sock is he? I suspect it’s dog.  Malarkey just melts down and comes back with a new name.

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I'm pissed at the D & R leadership for not being smart enough, interested enough in the good of the country to put that above partisan politics and putting something out that they could both work with, described in a way that Trump, who I doubt ever read more than the summary description of anything, could be encouraged to sign.

You're still imagining a Trump that doesn't exist. He's not fighting for a simple "See I won" moment anymore. He's dug his heels in on the $5 billion dollar wall because Coulter mocked him. Trump might be a moron, but Coulter isn't and she's very happy to flex her influence and inform Trump just how "had" he is for agreeing to something other than the full wall. He's too chickenshit to start a PR feud with Coulter, because he knows she has the firepower where it counts (credibility with his base).

You want Trump to accept anything but his full amount - you need to talk to those controlling his ego. Head over to News Ltd and start talking to their right-wing shock "journos". 

 

1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

There are a myriad of ways to approach that - you can let the kid sit there in the restaurant flinging spaghetti all over the other patrons, kicking glasses off the table,  or pick him up and take him outside to warm his behind, or try to curb the behavior thru distraction.   While they're throwing a tantrum, they aren't going to listen or respond to "normal inputs".

And how do you propose to "distract" a man that has the entire fucking nation focused on his shut-down? And frankly, I think the Democrats are doing what's needed. You don't give in to someone that holds other people hostage. Ever. Whether they do it from tantrum, desperation, or plain old attention seeking - the instant someone starts hurting others to get what they want, the thing to do is to not give it them.

I understand you have an underlying partisan desire to also blame Democrats for the situation. However, this isn't one of those times. America doesn't give in to those that hold people hostage, why should Democrats change that rule because Republicans voted Trump into office?

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8 hours ago, The Joker said:

No one is going to get evicted, no one is going to be forclosed on over this

watch this space .

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Just to get this s***fight back on track, here is a quote from Pres Don J Trump:  "We need a President who isn't a laughing stock to the entire World. We need a truly great leader, a genius at strategy and winning. Respect!"

 

How much "respect" is President (and by extension, all of the US) gaining by this immature tantrum?  Of course that's a rhetorical question.  This whole situation makes the US look stupid.  

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11 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Utter bullshit. Pretend you are a landlord. Pretend your tenants all work for the TSA. How long are you going to float them? A month? 6 months? A year? How long is your bank going to float YOU while you have no money for the mortgage on the property the workers that aren't getting paid rent from you?

Federal workers are filing for unemployment RIGHT NOW. Of course state unemployment will take a hit. In what alternate universe do you live in where no one cares if they have money?

Agree.  That also ignores the fact that even IF the money eventually gets paid and no one gets evicted - CC bills will pile up, mortgages will be late, car payments will be late, etc - which all automatically report on a person's credit rating and bring their score down.  That in many ways is more harmful long term to someone than just missing a paycheck or two.

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10 hours ago, bhyde said:
10 hours ago, The Joker said:

Reading is fundimental.

Well done.

In all fairness, he said "reading" not spelling is fundimental.  :lol:

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9 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Not sure exactly what this was supposed to be, but it is pretty common for landlords to start the eviction process at the end of the day rent was due. I sure would, I have seen my friends subjected to all kinds of legal fuckery once they sign off on late rent.

Also note all the janitors, cooks, and myriad other contractors have no deal to get back pay. Not a penny.

In fact, I would say the contractor aspect is quite a bit larger than just the direct federal workers.  ALL or most of the gov't contracts have stopped.  Those workers will not be getting back pay.  

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8 hours ago, hermetic said:

employees considered critical - both federal and contract - have been retroactively paid in past shutdowns

And what if they are not critical??  Let them starve?  Live out of their car?

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This is exactly how people who were almost making it work might end up back in a dark place. Trump is actively disrupting the nation and it's going to take a long time to get better.

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But yay! People out of work, unable to pay the bills, and falling into debt for no other reason but the GOP president pitching a hissy fit is exactly what you'd expect from "burning the bitch down". As long as one is overseas watching it from a distance, who cares about the people that get burnt alongside "the bitch" right? :rolleyes:

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12 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

You're still imagining a Trump that doesn't exist. He's not fighting for a simple "See I won" moment anymore. He's dug his heels in on the $5 billion dollar wall because Coulter mocked him. Trump might be a moron, but Coulter isn't and she's very happy to flex her influence and inform Trump just how "had" he is for agreeing to something other than the full wall. He's too chickenshit to start a PR feud with Coulter, because he knows she has the firepower where it counts (credibility with his base).

You want Trump to accept anything but his full amount - you need to talk to those controlling his ego. Head over to News Ltd and start talking to their right-wing shock "journos". 

 

And how do you propose to "distract" a man that has the entire fucking nation focused on his shut-down? And frankly, I think the Democrats are doing what's needed. You don't give in to someone that holds other people hostage. Ever. Whether they do it from tantrum, desperation, or plain old attention seeking - the instant someone starts hurting others to get what they want, the thing to do is to not give it them.

I understand you have an underlying partisan desire to also blame Democrats for the situation. However, this isn't one of those times. America doesn't give in to those that hold people hostage, why should Democrats change that rule because Republicans voted Trump into office?

I was almost with you until that bolded bit of BS.   Nice try, but, no soup for you. 

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
18 hours ago, hermetic said:

employees considered critical - both federal and contract - have been retroactively paid in past shutdowns

And what if they are not critical??  Let them starve?  Live out of their car?

no.  shutdowns are stupid political ploys.  always, and this one especially - since it's all about semantics

what I was responding to was the statement that contractors never get paid during shutdowns

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9 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

But yay! People out of work, unable to pay the bills, and falling into debt for no other reason but the GOP president pitching a hissy fit is exactly what you'd expect from "burning the bitch down".

Yep, that's true.  I never said burning this bitch down was going to be painless.  However, I strongly maintain the alternative is worse.  

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43 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep, that's true.  I never said burning this bitch down was going to be painless.  However, I strongly maintain the alternative is worse.  

One question:  What was the alternative you predicted to be worse than what is happening to the USA under the Trump administration?

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1 hour ago, hermetic said:
11 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
20 hours ago, hermetic said:

employees considered critical - both federal and contract - have been retroactively paid in past shutdowns

And what if they are not critical??  Let them starve?  Live out of their car?

no.  shutdowns are stupid political ploys.  always, and this one especially - since it's all about semantics

what I was responding to was the statement that contractors never get paid during shutdowns

Let them eat cake.

In his "business career" Trump made a habit of not paying his contractors and employees. See a pattern emerging?

For those who genuinely want a smaller, less expensive government, NOW is the time to start totalling up what the various functions our government performs, and pick out the few you don't want to come back. Chaotic, uninformed "ah hates the dadgum gubbermint" is going to just push the pendulum to where it is now, poised for a dramatic swing back to the left.

For now, the bitch burning continues.

-DSK

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11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

pick out the few you don't want to come back.

I already gave my top choice.

But a better one would have been DEA.

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25 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Let them eat cake.

In his "business career" Trump made a habit of not paying his contractors and employees. See a pattern emerging?

For those who genuinely want a smaller, less expensive government, NOW is the time to start totalling up what the various functions our government performs, and pick out the few you don't want to come back. Chaotic, uninformed "ah hates the dadgum gubbermint" is going to just push the pendulum to where it is now, poised for a dramatic swing back to the left.

For now, the bitch burning continues.

-DSK

Excellent point, and I think that you're absolutely correct.   I'll take a stab at a few I'd like to see go away:  1) TSA - they are duplicative and inefficient. 2) I'd LOVE to see the IRS authority significantly curtailed, concurrent with income tax reforms that eliminated most deductions, and adjusted the tax rates to compensate.  3) I'd like to see Medicaid and Medicare combined.  The differences in client base/function don't warrant separate agencies.  4) Combine all the branches of the military into a single US Defense Force - maintaining and improving the capabilities we need to secure our nation and project force in response to the perceived threats of the next 25 years, eliminating duplication, intra-service budget competitions, and unneeded capabilities 5) CREATE a new education/training program, with a compulsory 2 year service obligation - it doesn't need to be the military, everyone can do SOMETHING, and should.   

 

 

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41 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:
2 hours ago, hermetic said:
12 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:
21 hours ago, hermetic said:

employees considered critical - both federal and contract - have been retroactively paid in past shutdowns

And what if they are not critical??  Let them starve?  Live out of their car?

no.  shutdowns are stupid political ploys.  always, and this one especially - since it's all about semantics

what I was responding to was the statement that contractors never get paid during shutdowns

Let them eat cake.

In his "business career" Trump made a habit of not paying his contractors and employees. See a pattern emerging?

no, I really don't see a pattern.  what I see is another useless government shutdown, just like all the previous ones

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12 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

But yay! People out of work, unable to pay the bills, and falling into debt for no other reason but the GOP president pitching a hissy fit is exactly what you'd expect from "burning the bitch down". As long as one is overseas watching it from a distance, who cares about the people that get burnt alongside "the bitch" right? :rolleyes:

This morning, I was listening to an NPR story about the folks who are not furloughed, and not affiliated with the federal government, who are being adversely affected by the shutdown.  Imagine you have a contract to sell your house.  You also have a contract to buy a new house.  The buyer of your house is furloughed and the bank will not authorize the mortgage, as employment and pay status cannot be verified.  Another story involved refinancing being held up for similar reasons.

Linky

This is a shitshow and the President owns it.  He said he'd do it and this is one time he kept his word.

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One upside to all this - there's about 800,000 votes that won't be going to Trump.

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He's running scared.  He feels the walls (ha) closing in on him, so he's lashing out, as is his way. Attack! Attack! Attack!

The border 'crisis' was manufactured to take the heat away from him.  It was funny to watch him dance around that word, but the fact that border crossings are at a 46 year low sort of makes the point.  He's doubling down on it with the threat of using 'emergency powers', which besides keeping his name in the news, is a step towards the dictatorship he really wants.  Interesting times. 

800,000 people missed a paycheck today.  Probably 5x that many people affected (families, landlords, etc).  That many angry people can't be good for him. 

 

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low )

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47 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

One upside to all this - there's about 800,000 votes that won't be going to Trump.

Don't forget the 4 million contract workers.

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2 hours ago, Raz'r said:
2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

One upside to all this - there's about 800,000 votes that won't be going to Trump.

Don't forget the 4 million contract workers.

Trump's "business success" has been to fuck people over. This is what a "successful businessman" looks like as President. Isn't this what they voted for?

-DSK

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2 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Trump's "business success" has been to fuck people over. This is what a "successful businessman" looks like as President. Isn't this what they voted for?

-DSK

Waiting for him to try and NOT pay everyone.............................

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4 hours ago, Kirwan said:

He's running scared.  He feels the walls (ha) closing in on him, so he's lashing out, as is his way. Attack! Attack! Attack!

The border 'crisis' was manufactured to take the heat away from him.  It was funny to watch him dance around that word, but the fact that border crossings are at a 46 year low sort of makes the point.  He's doubling down on it with the threat of using 'emergency powers', which besides keeping his name in the news, is a step towards the dictatorship he really wants.  Interesting times. 

800,000 people missed a paycheck today.  Probably 5x that many people affected (families, landlords, etc).  That many angry people can't be good for him. 

 

https://www.npr.org/2017/12/05/568546381/arrests-for-illegal-border-crossings-hit-46-year-low )

The US work force is 160,000,000. So while it sucks for the folks involved it represents a tiny fraction of workers 

It was a crisis when it happened under Obama, both Bush’s, Reagan and Clinton.   It is still a crisis.  While the year may be down the last 4 months have seen a surge in illigal crossing.  The make up has also changed.  It used to be single men. Now it is woman and children. 

How did it go from a humanitarian crisis under Obama to a manufactured crisis under Trump?  

I do not agree with the shut down, but with either side refusing to budge I expect it is going to go on for a while. 

Trump may take the blame, but both sides deserve some heat.  The deal last summer DOCA for the wall should have been signed.  In that case it was Schummer who pulled the plug.  

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40 minutes ago, The Joker said:

The US work force is 160,000,000. So while it sucks for the folks involved it represents a tiny fraction of workers 

 

So your answer is 'whomp whomp'.

How many federal contractors have been furloughed, and will see no pay?  I've heard estimates over 2 million.  Again, multiply by some factor to include families, creditors, etc. 

A million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about real people!

 

 

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Fuck yeah. Unemployment went up .5% (based on the 800k number) in 3 weeks and the dipshit Trumpkin is saying NBD. Fuck I love Trumpkins, the engineer bunnys of stupid.

Even better is how Trump's dumbfuckery is cratering the economy he was taking credit for and suddenly they all stfu.

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18 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

So your answer is 'whomp whomp'.

How many federal contractors have been furloughed, and will see no pay?  I've heard estimates over 2 million.  Again, multiply by some factor to include families, creditors, etc. 

A million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about real people!

 

 

People missing paychecks is water off a duck's back to these folks.  Remember that the tRump family has exhibit signs of sociopathy in all their business dealings for three or four generations in the US. 

Grandfather ran a brothel in Alaska and Seattle, Daddy tRump marched in KKK rallies, Donnie was fined by HUD for systematically not renting apartments to black people, He also is notorious for not paying people, Don Jr. likened the wall to a fence at the zoo keeping animals out, Ivanka steals her designs from other companies and makes knock-offs in China.  

Nice folks.  

 

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25 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

People missing paychecks is water off a duck's back to these folks.  Remember that the tRump family has exhibit signs of sociopathy in all their business dealings for three or four generations in the US. 

Grandfather ran a brothel in Alaska and Seattle, Daddy tRump marched in KKK rallies, Donnie was fined by HUD for systematically not renting apartments to black people, He also is notorious for not paying people, Don Jr. likened the wall to a fence at the zoo keeping animals out, Ivanka steals her designs from other companies and makes knock-offs in China.  

Nice folks.  

 

What's that saying about birds and feathers?

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1 hour ago, Kirwan said:

So your answer is 'whomp whomp'.

How many federal contractors have been furloughed, and will see no pay?  I've heard estimates over 2 million.  Again, multiply by some factor to include families, creditors, etc. 

A million here, a million there, and pretty soon you're talking about real people!

 

 

Economics 1.0.2 Multiplier Effect .

Advanced syllabus ;) 

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14 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

I was almost with you until that bolded bit of BS.   Nice try, but, no soup for you. 

That's OK. Wasn't expecting you to own your bias. You haven't so far and that post wasn't aimed at even trying that. 

You agree with the fa T's. If you want to continue making the Democrats that little bit more responsible for fixing the issue (as you've stated before), it's going to be a hard row to hoe for those not wedded to "red good, blue bad". Good enough for me. 

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12 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep, that's true.  I never said burning this bitch down was going to be painless.  However, I strongly maintain the alternative is worse.  

Yes. We're well aware that no matter how bad it gets and who is hurt, the right will always default to "Hillary was worse" 

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This whole mess is clearly the Republican Senators' responsibility for not having a spine and passing a budget then overriding a Presidential veto considering it's over *one* item.

I don't see any way it's the Democrats' fault.

Blame the Senate Majority Leader first up for not allowing a bill to go to a vote and the rest of the Republicans second for allowing him to get away with doing it. Maybe it's time you all changed the rules and took that power off of the Majority Leader.....

FKT

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By imposing tariffs which are squeezing off our access to foreign markets and increasing the costs of foreign goods and materials, creating market instability by attacking the Fed and now with his federal shutdown, it appears Trump is doing his best to sabotage America's economy.

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19 hours ago, bridhb said:
19 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Yep, that's true.  I never said burning this bitch down was going to be painless.  However, I strongly maintain the alternative is worse.  

One question:  What was the alternative you predicted to be worse than what is happening to the USA under the Trump administration?

That's a fair question and I'm glad you asked.  The alternative (long term) is that we continue our gradual but accelerating societal decay, the political and tribal divisions get worse and the economic inequalities continue to widen and it all builds up to a crash leading to riots, rebellion/open civil war, and an end to the US as we know it.  I think we are headed for an economic and societal collapse if something doesn't change.  I think we've been bumping along the bottom or near the bottom for a while now.  We are the proverbial frog in the pot of water where the heat is being turned up so gradually we don't feel it until it boils.  

While Hillary wasn't worse than trump in the immediate term by any means, continuing with the same old same old duopoly slow descent into the abyss was unsustainable and in that sense Hillary was worse because she wasn't going to really wake people up to what's coming.  I think Trump has done everything I had hoped he would do in terms of giving the US a kick in the nuts and the wake up call we need.  Until people see how bad it can really get, no one is going to take any action to prevent it.  And while it may not seem like it, the immediate and short term damage trump has done and can do is very limited.  He's not in anyway going to "destroy" amerika as the hand wringers think.  He will be a mess the dog left on the carpet and no one will even remember his name in 10 or 20 years.  But NOT getting this wake up call will destroy this country that I love, so I'm willing to see some short term "burning of the bitches" to stop our slide into the darkness.  A little short term pain to prevent some much greater pain down the road.

My $.02

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8 hours ago, phillysailor said:

By imposing tariffs which are squeezing off our access to foreign markets and increasing the costs of foreign goods and materials, creating market instability by attacking the Fed and now with his federal shutdown, it appears Trump is doing his best to sabotage America's economy.

His history clearly demonstrates that his one skill is going bankrupt.

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"The alternative (long term) is that we continue our gradual but accelerating societal decay, the political and tribal divisions get worse and the economic inequalities continue to widen and it all builds up to a crash leading to riots, rebellion/open civil war, and an end to the US as we know it.  I think we are headed for an economic and societal collapse if something doesn't change.  "

I seem to remember this same line back in the late 70's and 80's. A few points

Society is not "decaying", it's changing.  Some of the changes appear to make you uncomfortable but they're going to change anyway. 

Political and tribal divisions have gotten worse because of some of the changes (suburbanization, internet news/opinion, segregated schools, the deliberate targeting of old divisions for political gain (Southern Strategy), demographic changes (see segregation)) benefit certain political, religious and economic groups. Change the benefits to change the outcome.

Economic inequalities are a direct outcome of political policies.

"economic and societal collapse" are the red flags used to panic the animals before you drive them off the cliff.  The first step in trying to come to a solution is to quit fear mongering and look at facts. We no longer penalize our politicians for making shit up, Trump is the logical extention of Reagan and Bush II.  Until we break the cycle of political rule by fear and hate it will be a long row.  Fortunately, most who subscribe to this will be dying out fairly soon.

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33 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

His history clearly demonstrates that his one skill is going bankrupt.

 

9:58 PM

 

“You’ve taken business bankruptcies six times.”
–Hillary Clinton

“On occasion – four times – we used certain laws that are there.”

–Donald Trump

THE FACT CHECKER | Clinton is correct.

Trump’s companies have filed for Chapter 11 bankruptcy protection, which means a company can remain in business while wiping away many of its debts. The bankruptcy court ultimately approves a corporate budget and a plan to repay remaining debts; often shareholders lose much of their equity.

Trump’s Taj Mahal opened in April 1990 in Atlantic City, but six months later, “defaulted on interest payments to bondholders as his finances went into a tailspin,” The Washington Post’s Robert O’Harrow found. In July 1991, Trump’s Taj Mahal filed for bankruptcy. He could not keep up with debts on two other Atlantic City casinos, and those two properties declared bankruptcy in 1992. A fourth property, the Plaza Hotel in New York, declared bankruptcy in 1992 after amassing debt.

PolitiFact uncovered two more bankruptcies filed after 1992, totaling six. Trump Hotels and Casinos Resorts filed for bankruptcy again in 2004, after accruing about $1.8 billion in debt. Trump Entertainment Resorts also declared bankruptcy in 2009, after being hit hard during the 2008 recession.

Why the discrepancy? Perhaps this will give us an idea: Trump told Washington Post reporters that he counted the first three bankruptcies as just one.

https://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/2016/live-updates/general-election/real-time-fact-checking-and-analysis-of-the-first-presidential-debate/fact-check-has-trump-declared-bankruptcy-four-or-six-times/?utm_term=.83df94bcd0ef

 

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New York’s Most Honest and Forthright Favorite Son does not lie. He just repeats what he hears on Fox and Friends during Executive Time. 

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On 1/10/2019 at 4:20 PM, Left Shift said:

Well, It is common parenting practice to not give in to a toddler's tantrum.  Some toddlers then hold their breath until they turn blue.  

Orange and blue are a terrible color combination. That alone could create an aesthetic emergency.  And lead to this:

Screen Shot 2019-01-10 at 1.19.04 PM.png

That looks awesome

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:01 PM, learningJ24 said:

We no longer penalize our politicians for making shit up, Trump is the logical extention of Reagan and Bush II. 

“If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor”. 

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”

“The attack on Benghazi’s consulate was because of an anti-Muslim video “

Just Reagan and Bush??

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3 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

“If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor”. 

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”

“The attack on Benghazi’s consulate was because of an anti-Muslim video “

Just Reagan and Bush??

Each Administration since Carter has contributed to an increasing false narrative. 

This one, however, is unlike anything we’ve ever seen. 

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On 1/12/2019 at 9:01 PM, learningJ24 said:

"The alternative (long term) is that we continue our gradual but accelerating societal decay, the political and tribal divisions get worse and the economic inequalities continue to widen and it all builds up to a crash leading to riots, rebellion/open civil war, and an end to the US as we know it.  I think we are headed for an economic and societal collapse if something doesn't change.  "

I seem to remember this same line back in the late 70's and 80's. A few points

Society is not "decaying", it's changing.  Some of the changes appear to make you uncomfortable but they're going to change anyway. 

Political and tribal divisions have gotten worse because of some of the changes (suburbanization, internet news/opinion, segregated schools, the deliberate targeting of old divisions for political gain (Southern Strategy), demographic changes (see segregation)) benefit certain political, religious and economic groups. Change the benefits to change the outcome.

Economic inequalities are a direct outcome of political policies.

"economic and societal collapse" are the red flags used to panic the animals before you drive them off the cliff.  The first step in trying to come to a solution is to quit fear mongering and look at facts. We no longer penalize our politicians for making shit up, Trump is the logical extention of Reagan and Bush II.  Until we break the cycle of political rule by fear and hate it will be a long row.  Fortunately, most who subscribe to this will be dying out fairly soon.

 I hope I’m wrong about my admittedly pessimistic outlook. But I don’t think I am. And I don’t deny that would You describe are changes, but they are changes that are also bringing about Decay.  Has nothing to do with being a middle-aged white man. I don’t know how you can look yourself and in the mirror and not see that our society has changed significantly for the worse in the last 30 to 40 years. 

And I do not deny that some or most of the things you described above that are causing the changes are not in fact correct. But it doesn’t change the fact that those changes are causing a decline and decay in ou discourse and our overall general well-being as a society.  Just because something is changing, does not mean it is changing for the better. There is nothing wrong with me pointing out that I think the changes are bad for our country. Observing in discussing that decline in those negative changes is not fear mongeringJust because something is changing, does not mean it is changing for the better. There is nothing wrong with me pointing out that I think the changes are bad for our country. Observing in discussing that decline in those negative changes is not fear mongering.  Calling it simply fear mongering is nothing but a way to dismiss a point of view that you don’t agree with. 

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5 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:

Each Administration since Carter has contributed to an increasing false narrative. 

This one, however, is unlike anything we’ve ever seen. 

 I totally agree, it was not denying it. Was just making a point that J 24 only used GOP examples. As you said, every administration often blatantly, lies   

 But yes, totally agree that cheeto has taken that to an entirely new level. 

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3 minutes ago, Bus Driver said:
8 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

“If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor”. 

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”

“The attack on Benghazi’s consulate was because of an anti-Muslim video “

Just Reagan and Bush??

Each Administration since Carter has contributed to an increasing false narrative. 

This one, however, is unlike anything we’ve ever seen.  

I can tell you some lying we have not seen:

We have not seen a Democratic Administration lie us into a war, for the personal profit of the Vice President

We have not seen a Democratic Administration set out to smear it's own intel services in preference to a hostile foreign power.

 

Just now, Shootist Jeff said:

 I hope I’m wrong about my admittedly pessimistic outlook.......  ...   ... Just because something is changing, does not mean it is changing for the better. There is nothing wrong with me pointing out that I think the changes are bad for our country. Observing in discussing that decline in those negative changes is not fear mongering.  Calling it simply fear mongering is nothing but a way to dismiss a point of view that you don’t agree with. 

A caravan of scary brown people is coming! It's a National Emergency requiring that dictatorial powers be given to the (thankfully R!) President!

Calling it fear mongering is completely accurate.

-DSK

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10 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

“If you like your doctor you can keep your doctor”. 

“I did not have sexual relations with that woman”

“The attack on Benghazi’s consulate was because of an anti-Muslim video “

Just Reagan and Bush??

Each recent administration has had a single defining "lie" attached to them.  The Faux noise machine will not let them fade and those single mis-statements become memorable...this administration has had 7,000 of them.  They tumble out so fast that the absurdity (and danger) of each one becomes blurred and un-memorable.  

But, the wall may just be the one that sticks.  To give hope, there's this from today:

64352137_ScreenShot2019-01-13at12_20_48PM.png.e2df1305cbad162fb450fa6237995e7f.png

 

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" Calling it simply fear mongering is nothing but a way to dismiss a point of view that you don’t agree with. "

Not at all, if you were simply talking about change but the language you use is the same as the people you decry. "rebellion/open civil war, and an end to the US as we know it.  I think we are headed for an economic and societal collapse if something doesn't change.  " IS fear mongering and, perhaps not by you, the fear mongering is done for a specific purpose; to get people emoting rather than thinking.  Feelings are far more manipulatable than logical thought.  While you say you don't think your fears are attributable to being a middle age white guy, I think if you made a list of your fears you would find them aligning quite well with the old scared white people. 

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I think that Trump will spell the deathknell of GOP reliance on white supremacy to maintain authority and legitimacy. This path of suppression of voting rights and reliance upon unequal votes to maintain electoral wins is contradictory to a stable democracy. It leads to bad leaders who are bad men, because extremism wins elections under this skewed system. As Trump is the standard bearer of this system, his downfall will necessarily require a change by Republicans to guard against such as shyster taking control of the party with a populist message of racism and money for rich people.

Unfortunately, there is a chance that the gambit works, and we become a more overtly white supremacist nation, with unequal rights accepted by a powerful 35% which is enforced by opaque rules, civic fines and fees which ensure minority poverty and disenfranchisement. For-profit prisons which offer powerful incentives to incarcerate of increasingly large percentages of black males. A situation designed not to keep the peace or protect the public, but ultimately to emasculate and defang a racial group. Just look at the varying statistics for incarceration rates by race for identical crimes & the policing stats of major cities which show clear, systemic and widespread racial bias and the acceptance/defense of such statistics by "right wing" groups. They are ok with bureaucratic, legal and environmental racial inequality to maintain the lily white membership rolls of the GOP ruling elite.

 

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7 minutes ago, phillysailor said:

Unfortunately, there is a chance that the gambit works

This gambit is the most successful American political movement of the last half century. 

300px-US_State_Government_Control_Map.sv

 

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5 hours ago, weightless said:

This gambit is the most successful American political movement of the last half century. 

300px-US_State_Government_Control_Map.sv

 

Almost as successful as Nixon and Agnew’s second run. Neither of them finished their terms, however.

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