Gotta Go

Need help selecting a cruiser to consistently outduel Capri 22's

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Hi Guys,

I need advice on purchasing a boat for lake sailing that will consistently outduel Capri 22's in PHRF.  With that being said, I also want something that has a good class to trailer it to Regattas on the eastern half of the US.  I've looked extensively at J24's (need a large crew to race them) and am leaning toward an S2 7.9 (my limit is 26 feet for a new boat).  Please advise.  Thanks so much.

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A Santana 22 or 23 would be a good choice.  They used to always give us a hard time when we were sailing a Capri 24

 

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I had a Capri 22 for about a decade. It's a pretty good all-around boat, and the usual PHRF which maybe 20 points or so north of the J-22 may be favorable. The wing keel boat is at a disadvantage over the fin keel boat. I found the standard rig to be pretty sporty, and I suspect that the tall doesn't pay off, PHRF-wise, but I don't know.

One thing to think about:  I did not have a spinnaker, and I sailed in the light winds of WLIS, but I did sail in strong winds sometimes, and I never saw boatspeed on the GPS that was significantly higher than the nominal hull speed. A boat with the potential to break out on a plane would have a big advantage, based on my experience. 

There are rumors that Gary Mull had a hand in the lines of the Capri 22. I'm dubious. Mull did design a Cal 22 which is a very nice boat. The Merit 25 is a great boat is the size range you are talking about. 

There is one 23' Santana which has a reputation as a light air flyer. That might be an interesting choice if you can figure out which model it is, and actually find one.

 

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Ensign Class one design. 22’ 3,000lb 

Can beat the j-22 and Capri if sailed to rating in phrf and has a ton of fleets east coast for regattas. 

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Probably a J22 unless your cruising at all. Depends on the boat ramps or launch. If your cruising then S2 7.9 which can launch anywhere.

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Ultimate 20.  Planing is fun and easy, I used to solo all the time, 2 up works great, we used to cruise ours & I think Schock is building them new?

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The ultimate will kill the fleet

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1 minute ago, Sail4beer said:

The ultimate will kill the fleet

Oops.

 

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I sailed the Ultimate 20 with Paul aka Amati. It's a great boat. In performance a big notch above the Capris. It can sail boat for boat with a Thunderbird. That's pretty good for a 20' boat. Get that asym up and it was a hoot. Very easy to sail.

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Looke at Bob, raceng the compentitione!                                               :)        

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13 hours ago, Jammer Six said:

Capris are tender. I finally had to quit racing them because scrambling up and down on them was too hard on my back. The wing keels in the fleet were a disadvantage, the standard keels could out point them.

I've only raced them in one design, I don't know what will beat them and be allowed to race against them, but just about any cruiser in the fleet that's larger than they are can bury them, just by being a little stiffer. The stronger the wind, the further behind the Capri loses to larger, stiffer boats.

I moved up to a 28-footer for the same reason. OTOH, the OP is looking for a lake boat. I tend to think of lakes as light air venues, but maybe that's just my NJ upbringing. 

I did have trouble catching the larger boats, e.g. a Sabre 28, in any sort of 10+ breeze, but a big part of that is C22 started pitching in waves than the Sabre noticed not at all. Just a matter of length.

I'm reminded of a photograph I once saw in a Santana 20 brochure. It showed a crew of about 1000lbs of linebacker-sized guys, all in matching foulies, crowded on the tiny deck. Most of these smaller boats are tender sans the expected weight of crew. The C22 was a favorite of boat rental places, so it's certainly not especially dicey to sail. 

 

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28 minutes ago, SemiSalt said:

The C22 was a favorite of boat rental places, so it's certainly not especially dicey to sail. 

It is if you have jammies' sailing skills.

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So guys, if I go with the S2 7.9, am I making a mistake?  I figure it should do well against the Capri 22's, can be trailered easily, can be sailed by two (without the spinnaker) and can also be sailed on the ocean without a problem?  Please advise. . .

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Gotta:

I think  whether or not it can be "sailed on the ocean without a problem" will be a function of your sailing skills.

They are very good boats but a bit small for the "ocean". Kind of depends on where on the ocean.

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Bob,

When I say ocean, I mean along the coast and in Long Island Sound.  Nothing else.  I like to see land.  It would be an entirely different vessel if I wanted to sail to Bermuda.  I'm looking for the best of both worlds.  An aggressive racer that I can easily trailer and take to regattas.  I really wanted a J24 but my lake ramp would make it very difficult to get it in and out.   

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21 minutes ago, Gotta Go said:

Bob,

When I say ocean, I mean along the coast and in Long Island Sound.  Nothing else.  I like to see land.  It would be an entirely different vessel if I wanted to sail to Bermuda.  I'm looking for the best of both worlds.  An aggressive racer that I can easily trailer and take to regattas.  I really wanted a J24 but my lake ramp would make it very difficult to get it in and out.   

Based on that the 7.9 is an excellent choice and much easier to trailer and more fun than a J24. 

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I was searching around for cb boats and come across a link to this old thread here on SA. This has racy boats, non-racy boats, production boats, one-off boats, etc. 

If you wanted to ante up for a new boat, the Beneteau First 25 advertises a drop keel version.

That said, the S2 seems like the most reliable choice. YRA/LIS rates them at 174. You want to be sure the racing fleet puts you in the same division as the Capri. It's right around the dividing line for non-spinnaker boats around Stamford. Not a problem is spinnaker classes (which are mostly faster).

 

 

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The 7.9 will hold it's own against any of the boats you are talking about. Twenty years ago I had a Float On trailer built for my 7.9. Simple, back the trailer up, float the boat on, hook up and go.

Before my 7.9 I had a Santana 23 daggerboard boat. Light air flyer, in flat water, not good in choppy .

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I looked at the Beneteau First 25 and was impressed with the boat and the speed.  Having said that, the only used boats were in Europe.  I really didn't want to spring for a new boat.  I figure for under 15K I can get into an S2 and get a new set of sails at the same time.  The Beneteau new was significantly more expensive.

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If the group (fleet) you race in is made up of Capri 22s then the S2 6.9 rates much closer boat for boat, and is therefore likely to be in the same class/fleet, while retaining many of the same advantages/capabilities as the 7.9.  That said, hard to go wrong with a 7.9.

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Two questions guys.  Is there a contraption made that would lock the tiller into a certain location which would allow one to work with the sails while sailing solo?  Second, since the centerboard raises and lowers while racing (allowed in the class) is there a mechanical winch that you guys are aware of which would raise/lower it remotely while sailing?  

 

Other ideas to set up a boat like this for solo sailing?

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1 hour ago, Gotta Go said:

Two questions guys.  Is there a contraption made that would lock the tiller into a certain location which would allow one to work with the sails while sailing solo?  Second, since the centerboard raises and lowers while racing (allowed in the class) is there a mechanical winch that you guys are aware of which would raise/lower it remotely while sailing?  

 

Other ideas to set up a boat like this for solo sailing?

On my Sharks, I used a bungee cord from one side of the cockpit to the other, with one or two loops around the tiller to keep it in place. I did a lot of miles steering by body weight.

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On my boat, I simply use the tail of the roller furling line.... across the cockpit with a 3 wraps on the tiller.  Adjust the line tension to set the friction. Easy to make fine adjustments. 

The step up is a tiller pilot; it's an autopilot that connects to the tiller, to hold a constant magnetic course (plus more features)... about $500.

https://www.defender.com/category.jsp?id=2028711&path=-1|17|2028687

 

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I had a tiller autopilot on the mighty PERRYWINKLE. It worked like a charm. Changed my life when single handing.

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37 minutes ago, steele said:

There used to be a much less expensive version of this, can't find it now,

[...]

http://www.wavefrontmarine.com

Are you thinking of the Tiller Tamer?

~$29 here: http://www.apsltd.com/tiller-tamer.html?fee=5&fep=69785&utm_source=Google+Shopping&utm_medium=cpc&utm_campaign=Product&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI5vqNuYz03wIVcyCtBh0cSQnjEAQYBSABEgJAr_D_BwE

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21 hours ago, Gotta Go said:

Second, since the centerboard raises and lowers while racing (allowed in the class) is there a mechanical winch that you guys are aware of which would raise/lower it remotely while sailing?  

There's this: 

 

Keep in mind, I've never knowingly been within a few hundred yards of a 7.9, so I'm ignorant of how the keel operates.

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On 1/17/2019 at 9:11 AM, SemiSalt said:

There's this: 

 

Keep in mind, I've never knowingly been within a few hundred yards of a 7.9, so I'm ignorant of how the keel operates.

Cool but I'm sure that I would forget to charge the battery.

I will soon be 71 and honestly I don't find raising the board all that hard. Did it this afternoon. When we race, I let the younger crew do it. I tell them that It's better than going to the gym.

I keep the board raised and the rudder kicked up at the dock, keeps any growth off of both of them.

 

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3 hours ago, LarryE said:

Cool but I'm sure that I would forget to charge the battery.

I will soon be 71 and honestly I don't find raising the board all that hard. Did it this afternoon. When we race, I let the younger crew do it. I tell them that It's better than going to the gym.

I keep the board raised and the rudder kicked up at the dock, keeps any growth off of both of them.

 

Mostly, I thought it was funny, but the real message is that apparently the keel can be raised/lowered from the cockpit, more or less handy to the helm. 

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On 1/16/2019 at 11:59 PM, steele said:

There used to be a much less expensive version of this, can't find it now,

User_in%20Cockpit_L.jpg

http://www.wavefrontmarine.com

As someone who frequently singlehands a 19'er, I will say that the wavefront product is tits and tails better than the other options. Use a shitty bungee cord, or buy the wavefront. The in-betweens are wasting money. Wavefront is secure when on and has zero impact on tiller feel when off. Clicking it on/off for minute adjustments becomes a thing you really  don't even think about. I probably lock and unlock that thing hundreds of times per day when sailing without even being conscious of it.

/digression

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Just about any this side of a Catalina or cal 20 should make the grade!

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