CrazyR

optimist, niece wants to sail.

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Sorry for rumbling post. I’m in process of gaining information, and in best traditions of the World Wide Web I decided to ask first and do research later.

i have a niece, 8 yo athletic girl (state champion in gymnastics) tiny, smart, strong, fast, competitive. 

she has spent last summer weekending on my cruising boat and geniunly enjoyed the time.

Her parents are really liking idea of sending her in summer sailing camp.

we have two with youth program nearby, Hudson River north of NYC. One is Nyack, another in Stony Point, and it seems like there is another one across the river. I haven’t yet contacted any. 

Question number one. Coming from me, since I’m the one who is going to provide the boat and the support.

Is it possible to build class legal hull in a garage? I enjoy building and I believe she would enjoy it too and she would have a sort of totally different level of responsibilities, having put her labor into it. I browsed surface level of internets rambling about 50 points of measurement and general dislike for homebuild boats. Should I just drop the idea and go fishing for a good used boat?

any info on youth programs in the area? 

Internet forums?

Any underwater boulders I should be aware of?

im looking for any input, and I thank you for what ever insight you want to dump on me.

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Buy a good used boat....cart before the horse....keep it practical ...buy a new sail and good gear ....and encourage her or enable her to sail on her own as much as possible outside of the organized time

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12 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Buy a good used boat....cart before the horse....keep it practical ...buy a new sail and good gear ....and encourage her or enable her to sail on her own as much as possible outside of the organized time

Yep, it what I think too. But idea of building the thing is kinda appealing too. I guess next year. 

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Sadly, the Opti class seems to frown on home-built boats.  When I inquired, (a long, long time ago)  I was told that a home-built boat would simply NOT be measured and (therefore) could not be class legal. This meant that home-built boats could be used for sailing lessons at a local club, but would be unable to race in any International Optimist event. Subsequently, (years after my kids had finished with the sailing program) a parent at our club did build his own boat, which proceeded to beat all the fiberglass ones.  Maybe the kid was a great sailor, or maybe plywood holds its shape better...    At this point, starting to build an Optimist now in order to have it ready to sail by June would be quite an undertaking.  Buying or renting a used boat would be much simpler.  

Unless your niece is really small, it is likely that she will outgrow the Opti class fairly fast.  If she's athletic and competitive, she may want to move on to a different boat.  Investing the time into building one may not have much ROI.

P.S.: my oldest daughter went on to be an instructor at Nyack YC.  Nice program. 

      

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I have built a few boats and I can’t see why I can’t build a shoe box in 4 weekends, even with all the tight tolerances they require. But yes, I agree, I and she should spend at lest one season in the Optimist soup before even contemplating the idea. She is small and I don’t see her growing big. All her close relatives are  small.

is Nyack YC a go? Good. It is near. 

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Optis are a potential can of worms of a boat. There are different hulls, rigs sails foils, equipment etc. For a one design kids boat the amount of money one can spend is truly outrageous. 

We got an old Winner with a club rig and blown sail. Bought a few upgrades from  APS and a new sail. Never forked out for foils black gold spars etc. My son outgrew the boat when he was 12. 

We were told that a wood home built boat CAN measure in but are often much heaver than the glass boats. The hull itself would probably be less expensive, but there are so many used boats out there you can find a pretty good deal. 

If the club has its own boats maybe start with that. We did that for a year or so before we found a really good deal on our boat. We sold it for about what we paid plus the sail investment, so over all pretty good deal. 

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Is a “byo boat” camp the right place for her first sailing camp?  Maybe I’m old and out of touch (I learned in Opti’s when most were plywood home built and fibreglass boats were pretty rare).  Isn’t the idea to giver her some time learning the basics, having fun and seeing if she really has the bug to keep after it?  

BYO boat sounds like a few steps up the competitive racing ladder. As to home built Opti’s measuring in, it shows how crazy the Opti circuit has become. Don’t forget she’ll need a personal coach, a support RIB and a personal weather forecaster by year 2. Then mom will need a camp teaching her how to be an Optimom. 

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I have sailing/rowing “RIB”(hate motors) (pic attached) and I’m pretty sure I can be a personal coach until she overgrows me or looses interest. I can do forecasts too. I can do it on weekends. By the end of last summer she was able to put 30 ft fullkeel boat into and out of a dock (almost)  and steer it in right direction under sails and she enjoyed it.

I understand envolment and commitment it requires, however my own kid enjoyed my cruising boat only for watching movies in Vbirth on his visiting days and even it stopped at age 14. So, I guess I’m getting overexcited here.

E65AEE3A-315F-4118-BB16-F29B84221240.jpeg

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9 hours ago, CrazyR said:

Sorry for rumbling post. I’m in process of gaining information, and in best traditions of the World Wide Web I decided to ask first and do research later.

i have a niece, 8 yo athletic girl (state champion in gymnastics) tiny, smart, strong, fast, competitive. 

she has spent last summer weekending on my cruising boat and geniunly enjoyed the time.

Her parents are really liking idea of sending her in summer sailing camp.

we have two with youth program nearby, Hudson River north of NYC. One is Nyack, another in Stony Point, and it seems like there is another one across the river. I haven’t yet contacted any. 

Question number one. Coming from me, since I’m the one who is going to provide the boat and the support.

Is it possible to build class legal hull in a garage? I enjoy building and I believe she would enjoy it too and she would have a sort of totally different level of responsibilities, having put her labor into it. I browsed surface level of internets rambling about 50 points of measurement and general dislike for homebuild boats. Should I just drop the idea and go fishing for a good used boat?

any info on youth programs in the area? 

Internet forums?

Any underwater boulders I should be aware of?

im looking for any input, and I thank you for what ever insight you want to dump on me.

Pm me and I can give you info regarding those jr sail programs and what each program focuses on. 

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Screw the racing. :) Teach her to sail for love. Bonus points if you build the dink with her.

When she can sail it, turbo it via an O-pro kit like this photo. I’m not affiliated, but it looks a great way to amp up Opti sailing.

Then she can sail circles around the miserable one-designer kids being chased by coach boats and all wishing they could sail fast and fun like her. She’ll grow up loving sailing, not burn out on 2ktsbs, and can get into racing when/if she wants rather than when she’s told. (Ymmv :) )

A8624218-C698-4A79-98EB-BCA2E62EED2B.jpeg

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Oh...the irony when adults get involved...what started out as a cheap simple affordable home built.....

"The Optimist was designed in 1947 by American Clark Mills at the request of the Clearwater Florida Optimist service club following a proposal by Major Clifford McKay to offer low-cost sailing for young people.[1] The Optimist Club ran a soap box derby, but wanted more than a single-day event. Thus they were looking for a low-cost equivalent for sailing.[2] He designed a simple pram that could be built from two 4' x 8' sheets of plywood,[3] and donated the plan to the Optimists. The design was slightly modified and introduced to Europe by Axel Damgaard, and spread outwards across Europe from Scandinavia.[4] The design was in 1960 and became a strict One-Design in 1995.[5] The Optimist is sailed in over 120 countries[6] and it is one of only two yachts approved by the International Sailing Federation exclusively for sailors under 16.[7]"...from Wikipedia 

 

Clark Mills was a prolific designer of practical good sailing boats, he also designed the Windmill as a 2 person step up from the pram....it was a very fast boat and very popular in the 60's....I knew Clark and worked as a sailmaker in a loft just behind his boat building shop in Clearwater early 70's

 

 

he was a character with a great sense of humor..too bad this interview was not 10 years earlier for the obvious reason

 

 

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9 minutes ago, SailBlueH2O said:

Oh...the irony when adults get involved...what started out as a cheap simple affordable home built.....

We can always count on parents to ruin kids' fun.

Now instead of an affordable weekend bonding project and letting them go have fun, just dump $1,000+ and pressure your kid into trying to race a shoebox.

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No kid wants to show up at Sailing school with a plywood boat that gramps built unless gramps was Ol Clark. They don’t exactly want or need a new boat either. My 2 girls started in the half year program with rented 90’s vintage opti’s and had a great time. I picked up a free hull and buying another used one and fixing them up for this season. If you buy a used boat you can sell it for the same price when you are done with it.

Nyack Yacht Club has always been a laid back place to sail. There isn’t much wind near the moorings but when you get out into the river a bit there is good wind and not too much current. Plus the kids get great exercise going g up and down the hill. Their legs will be in better shape than the grownups!

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1 minute ago, Sail4beer said:

No kid wants to show up at Sailing school with a plywood boat that gramps built unless gramps was Ol Clark. They don’t exactly want or need a new boat either. My 2 girls started in the half year program with rented 90’s vintage opti’s and had a great time. I picked up a free hull and buying another used one and fixing them up for this season. If you buy a used boat you can sell it for the same price when you are done with it. <<<<<<<<<<<<   THIS !!!

Nyack Yacht Club has always been a laid back place to sail. There isn’t much wind near the moorings but when you get out into the river a bit there is good wind and not too much current. Plus the kids get great exercise going g up and down the hill. Their legs will be in better shape than the grownups!

 

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NBC's jr program is excellent....lots of club support...this year the Area B qualifiers will be on the Hudson either at NBC, SYC or CYC (or a mixture of all ;-)   the NBC program IIRC runs in 2 four week sessions as does the Shattemuc YC jr. program (in Ossining)  the MYC program is in its infancy and I think is only offered to members kids?? (I may be wrong on that one)  further north is the Chelsea jr. program that I run...6 weeks (have to do 2 weeks minimum)  and our club has boats for the youth sailors (opti.bic and 420) I can get you information on all 4 club's jr. programs and put you in touch with each director if you want.

 

 

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To the original poster:

You're on the right track. To be honest, the best advice I could give you right now is to get her out of competitive gymnastics. It's only a matter of time before you encounter toxic coaches and/or toxic competitors. 

While sailing has it's issues, you don't have to rely on a judges score

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5 minutes ago, RATM said:

To the original poster:

You're on the right track. To be honest, the best advice I could give you right now is to get her out of competitive gymnastics. It's only a matter of time before you encounter toxic coaches and/or toxic competitors. 

While sailing has it's issues, you don't have to rely on a judges score

Yout sailing has it's issues too...not the same but all sort of jerk behaviors and peer pressures...that said ease her into sailing and let her decide how she wants to pursue the sport...no sooner do they get good at prams it is time to move on....the older kids move on and mock them....too bad OD is not as big as Opti's so see can crew as well...which is a good way to learn and observe  

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For the record, the reason it's hard to measure in a homebuilt boat is because, before they tightened the tolerances, people were pushing the limits of the design in legitimate different directions. Today, i doubt one opti hull from another makes a damn bit of difference. 

If you need to bring your own boat, there'd be nothing wrong with fixing up an older one. Then she might have some stake in it to keep it looking good etc. An opti should, in my mind, be one of the easier boats out there to repaint and restore. 

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5 hours ago, dacapo said:

Pm me and I can give you info regarding those jr sail programs and what each program focuses on. 

I tried. “dacapo can’t receive messages”

e-mail me if you can please at vladimir(dot)eremeev(at)Gmail com.

boats availability hours costs etc. I also might want to join Nyack for mooring and a beach spot or any other club for the beach spot. I’m recent transplant into the area and still feeling my way around.

thanks

Vlad.

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1 hour ago, CrazyR said:

I tried. “dacapo can’t receive messages”

e-mail me if you can please at vladimir(dot)eremeev(at)Gmail com.

boats availability hours costs etc. I also might want to join Nyack for mooring and a beach spot or any other club for the beach spot. I’m recent transplant into the area and still feeling my way around.

thanks

Vlad.

sorry...i haven't cleaned out my inbox in like.....never ;-)

 

I'll email you when I get home

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3 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

For the record, the reason it's hard to measure in a homebuilt boat is because, before they tightened the tolerances, people were pushing the limits of the design in legitimate different directions. Today, i doubt one opti hull from another makes a damn bit of difference. 

If you need to bring your own boat, there'd be nothing wrong with fixing up an older one. Then she might have some stake in it to keep it looking good etc. An opti should, in my mind, be one of the easier boats out there to repaint and restore. 

Fixing up an older one is a great option IMHO, put on a personalized paint job.

I have mixed feelings about Opti fleets, but the boat itself is a very good platform for little kids to learn to sail. They can do everything with the boat, from carrying it down to the beach from storage, to rigging etc etc and of course sailing. IMHO it's good to have a singlehand learning boat, since the kids are not distracted by social interactions and they're not burdened with a crying partner.

I am down to just being a helper bee with our local program, I fix up an old Opti every other year or so. Looking at the used market, $1k should get you a pretty good starter boat, and unless she gets the racing bug, there will be no need to get her a better one.

As for a bonding experience building a project in the garage, oh yeah the good ol' days of yore. Nowadays dads don't know how to use tools, they don't have the leisure, and many parents find their kids so annoying that they don't want to be around them. If you're one of the few exceptions, my hat is off to you. The thing that makes junior sailing work is that kids do it together, and instructors that have enough imagination to build knowledge and skills without killing the fun. And get out of the way to let the kids just sail once they know how.

FB- Doug

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nowadays dads don't know how to use tools, they don't have the leisure, and many parents find their kids so annoying that they don't want to be around them

What a statement. Not saying its not true, just realizing that when put that way, no freaking wonder society is screwed.

Sorry, just had to point that out. Ok, back to the topic

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4 minutes ago, OutofOffice said:
11 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nowadays dads don't know how to use tools, they don't have the leisure, and many parents find their kids so annoying that they don't want to be around them

What a statement. Not saying its not true, just realizing that when put that way, no freaking wonder society is screwed.

Sorry, just had to point that out. Ok, back to the topic

Oops, did I say that out loud? Sorry!

2nd endorsement, a good program really opens the door for kids to sail. Bonus if you can take them sailing, too.

FB- Doug

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4 hours ago, smokeandoakum said:

Don't know anything about gymnastics but I will point out that I don't know any adults that compete in gymnastics.  Sailing on the other-hand is a true lifetime sport.  There's a an 80-year old that competes at my club.  

+1 for sure. Sailing is a lifetime sport.

To elaborate on my earlier post, if you're drawn to a sport that places style over substance, prepare to be disappointed.

I'm not saying that gymnasts and ice skaters are not athletes. I just don't like it when a corrupt judge can take away your gold medal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2002_Winter_Olympics_figure_skating_scandal

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I've had kids through oppies in the UK recently.

She's 8.  Buy a moderate shitter.  Not some home built wooden monstrosity that needs work, probably a fairly old plastic one.Sh  e'll wreck it for a year, if it's too good or you've put any effort into it then it will upset you and her

In between 1 and 2 years she'll need a better one.  If she's racing properly after that she'll need top flight one in another couple of years.

People complain about the cost, but you sell the first couple for what you pay for it.  Make sure the second one comes with at least one good sail and one training one.  That is where you spend the money you don't get back.

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Those are exactly my thoughts. Sailing is a lifelong sport, it’s better to put her through a school to let her interact with kids and not just with old dudes and she is competitive and hard working, so she may actually like racing. 

Building is just something I like :) and I’m pretty sure I can build best looking boat within class rules. But it’s not a goal. We can build something more fun later. 

Thanks.

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+ 3 on the posters who suggest buying an old one and using the bonding time to do it up. Cutting and polishing and replacing blocks doesn't match the smell of new  wood, and flocoat doesn't compare to varnish. But it means she will still have a boat she has put time into, it won't be "different" to the other kids, and if you extend to racing, it is ready to roll.

I've currently got my kids varnishing a do up sailing dinghy and left them drilling holes in the buoyancy tanks to put in a new inspection port.

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22 minutes ago, CrazyR said:

Those are exactly my thoughts. Sailing is a lifelong sport, it’s better to put her through a school to let her interact with kids and not just with old dudes and she is competitive and hard working, so she may actually like racing. 

Building is just something I like :) and I’m pretty sure I can build best looking boat within class rules. But it’s not a goal. We can build something more fun later. 

Thanks.

Maybe build something you can both sail in...check out this guy...sweet sailing kit boat

https://www.bedardyachtdesign.com/

 

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not sure how they work in the US, our club in Canada provides boats for learners, Opti's , then CL14's and 420's . If you want to go further into racing you buy your own boat, you get tired soon of cleaning up a fleet boat to make it regatta worth. 

Used Opti's here go from "please take it home" to 5K , no thats not a typo, some wackadoodle parents have full race Harken Optis with foils carried in custom bags..... Kids in $400 boats that figure out which way the wind blows do as well as drysuited kids in logo'd boats. 

Don't underestimate the level of idiot in any sport, there are some pretty 'entitled' folks in sailing, but you can do it forever if you choose. 

OP if your kid is atheletic , smart (not too smart) and short, get her involved on a keel boat occasionally racing on foredeck. PICK THE RIGHT BOAT. if she takes to it, she can enjoy sailing all over the place, sometimes on others dimes. Or end up in rehab, never mind......

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You should be able to get everything you need used (class hull in good shape, spars, dolly, foils, a couple used sails with measurement certs) for $2,000-$2,500 AT MOST.  If not, investigate how much shipping one from Texas costs. Our club offers free loaners for kids in the beginner program, and rentals for green fleeters, though i dont know how common that is.

My son has been sailing optis for about 3 years and we have really enjoyed it so much. This past year we did the local youth regatta circuit and had so much fun! I highly recommend it! 

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I built an opti using okoume plywood, cedar, and west system for my kids. It was a lot of fun to build and not hard at all. Your niece might like to be involved in that.

We never had the boat measured. They used it in a local sailing club camp and I sold it to the next generation when they moved up to Lasers.

 

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Let’s not jump ahead selfs with builds and racing plans. I’m telling it mostly to myself.

she is not my daughter, although I wish I have had same level of rapport with my grown up son regarding hobbies and time together. 

Right now plans are just for a summer camp and I’m pretty sure they have boats. 

If it goes well then possibilities are many. I raced beach cats in past and I can go into racing scene again, now having the crew.

i still do adventure type racing. 

Teaching her on my  cruising lead mine is not as much fun and I believe she will have more fun and pick more skills up doing it in kids racing program. And she will have access to my other boats. 

 

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43 minutes ago, CrazyR said:

Let’s not jump ahead selfs with builds and racing plans. I’m telling it mostly to myself.

she is not my daughter, although I wish I have had same level of rapport with my grown up son regarding hobbies and time together. 

Right now plans are just for a summer camp and I’m pretty sure they have boats. 

If it goes well then possibilities are many. I raced beach cats in past and I can go into racing scene again, now having the crew.

i still do adventure type racing. 

Teaching her on my  cruising lead mine is not as much fun and I believe she will have more fun and pick more skills up doing it in kids racing program. And she will have access to my other boats. 

 

I thing that’s a good approach and a camp with other kids is a great way for her to take the next step. Maybe she will become a hard care racer maybe she’ll develop a lifelong love for sailing and sharing a life on and around the water. All good and a summer messing around in small boats with kids her age is a great way to stoke the fire. 

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21 hours ago, OutofOffice said:

What a statement. Not saying its not true, just realizing that when put that way, no freaking wonder society is screwed.

Sorry, just had to point that out. Ok, back to the topic

I recently built a pergola with my son on the back of his house.  Felt kind of weird when I'm just the extra hands and he's the man with the plan.

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Why build new? Might be more fun to get a rescue and learn to repair and make it her own without starting from scratch? Best of both worlds.

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That is what we did. After we bought ours we did a few upgrades to halyard mainsheet vang, and cleaned polished the hull and touched of some of the nicks with gelcoat. My son helped with all that and learned some skills along the way. 

After we bought the boat he was then 100% responsible for rigging the boat except for loading and unloading from the car. That alone was a great experience. He is now one of the few sailors on his team to actively rig and unrig the boats at regattas while others sit around and argue about the playlist on the speaker :unsure: (or disconnect all the stays with no one holding the mast:angry:

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On 1/10/2019 at 11:19 AM, hasher said:
On 1/9/2019 at 1:53 PM, OutofOffice said:

What a statement. Not saying its not true, just realizing that when put that way, no freaking wonder society is screwed.

Sorry, just had to point that out. Ok, back to the topic

I recently built a pergola with my son on the back of his house.  Felt kind of weird when I'm just the extra hands and he's the man with the plan.

Big turnaround with my dad, about twenty years ago..... He was visiting and helping me do a little maintenance on the big boat I had at the time. We had a great time, he may have picked up on the role-reversal before I did. But he turned the tables very neatly by saying, "wow you take such good care of your tools now, when did you start cleaning them with WD-40 and putting them away so carefully? Maybe about the time you started BUYING YOUR OWN GODDAM TOOLS?!?!"

FB- Doug

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well, at least you didn’t fail on the boat thing, I kinda feel being looser in this department.

building things  or doing things together is how I connect. We have had some rapport with my  collage age son. It is just inside of four wall and It’s drives me crazy  :)

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Good afternoon,

Check this guy out.

www.ckdboats.blogspot.com

He CNC cuts plywood Optimist kits in South Africa that measures and ships them all over the world. Nice thing is he supplies a building jig which makes it difficult to build outside the class tolerances. The kit includes absolutely everything, epoxy, Harken gear, North sail.

Years back my one kid got a ply Opti for free. It was rescued from a warehouse toilet! It was absolutely poked but I got him sailing for what would have been less than 50 U.S. dollars. After two seasons the boat just disintegrated and we dumped the hull but kept the gear for spares. The boat was substantially quicker than the glass Winner he got as a replacement.

Sadly he drifted from a cheap sport like sailing to a rich man's sport namely mountain biking.

image.jpg

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On ‎1‎/‎12‎/‎2019 at 9:03 AM, Steam Flyer said:

about the time you started BUYING YOUR OWN GODDAM TOOLS?!?!"

There's the dad I know...

Little does he know, they're his tools. I just sat quietly as he paced back and forth in front of the toolbox talking to himself trying to remember where he put that 1/2" ratchet. Good times.

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Awesome shot w/ the pooch, trisail!

I suggest you get the lad down to South Florida for some training this winter.  We can get you sorted w/ a good opti and a coach boat-- reasonable rental rates.

Cheers,

Mike

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