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Bett's yard

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Beat me, Bett's Cat extensions as above

 

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5 minutes ago, ROADKILL666 said:

WHAT'S ALUMINUM?:D

It's a metal alloy that's one vowel inferior to aluminium!

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I dunno, but whatever it is, it’s gonna have a wide stance.

Take it to Multihull Anarchy!

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38 minutes ago, Tanton Y_M said:

Bett's method of construction for aluminum.

Actually that is not aluminum or aluminium for that matter. Every part of the boat you see in that photo is .125" Titanium as well as the hull plating. Keelson may be 1/4"  (instead of 3/8") as Jim didn't like the big difference between the thickness of the two plates for welding.  Lots of pitfalls welding with Ti!

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Betts sent out welded test panels to a testing lab and they broke their machine twice in pull tests. We are going to need a bigger test machine. One of the test panels sent to the client was subjected to first his big Dual Cab Dually pickup running over it on concrete. Then he had the big high rise forklift at the marina run over it. Still no issues. Then he had the 100 Ton Travelift run over it and he finally saw some bending at the welds but no cracking. All the welding is being done in an inert gas shield. 

    

1?ui=2&ik=e5d06f1df9&attid=0.1.16&permmsgid=msg-f:1604488016166654581&th=1644495989fc1275&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-JdVe8UhPjEylzhyGaFUuxnz4x_BsSQtjqzrqWI2lVmlCkNBg64hae2WH3WCQZECVG71HyMRt12lvNFf14GlMNaVTuhcNhrK5_24kOxMlRqjrBbEZr50KM9XQ&disp=emb

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4 hours ago, Editor said:

what-is-it-1-11.jpg

Pretty sure they call that aluminum...

It's the leading edge D-Box for a J3 Super Cub. Easy one.

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1 hour ago, sonicpops said:

It's the leading edge D-Box for a J3 Super Cub. Easy one.

J3 = Piper Cub

PA-18 = Piper Super Cub

(But I can't tell for which this titanium construction is destined.)

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2 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Actually that is not aluminum or aluminium for that matter. Every part of the boat you see in that photo is .125" Titanium as well as the hull plating. Keelson may be 1/4"  (instead of 3/8") as Jim didn't like the big difference between the thickness of the two plates for welding.  Lots of pitfalls welding with Ti!

That has got to a pricey build!

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20 minutes ago, casc27 said:

That has got to a pricey build!

Ya think?

May as well be built out of Unobtanium!

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20 minutes ago, casc27 said:

That has got to a pricey build!

Seriously!

Jim says that it were ANY other material, it would have been finished a year ago. He is receiving periodic progress payments. He learned that lesson decades ago.

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1 minute ago, Somebody Else said:

Seriously!

Jim says that it were ANY other material, it would have been finished a year ago. He is receiving periodic progress payments. He learned that lesson decades ago.

I think Jim must have learned that from Noah...

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3 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:
3 hours ago, Somebody Else said:

Seriously!

Jim says that it were ANY other material, it would have been finished a year ago. He is receiving periodic progress payments. He learned that lesson decades ago.

I think Jim must have learned that from Noah

Cane Jim tellus what a cubbitte is?

6 minutes ago, Kevlar Edge said:

Haha can anyone pronounce it right?

Th e Englishe and Americanes our to peopelle divided bye oune launguge.                                  :)

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Someone in Hawaii has too much money.  Seriously, a Ti 50' charter beach cat. 

It will be unique though.

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4 hours ago, casc27 said:

That has got to a pricey build!

Lots of titanium scrap in the yard.  Apparently you cannot recycle titanium.  Who knew?

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From the colour alone you can tell it isn’t aluminum and you’d not do steel that way so titanium it is. Let me know where I can get some of that.  

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We have been trying to come up with a line of small products using the scrap Ti from this project. The big Ti vendors will try and sell to you with the caveat that they waterjet cut the parts to your CNC files. If that can be done on their equipment under their roof they will give you a scrap price for the waste material. If you buy the full sheets and do your own cutting then your scraps are of very little value since the provenance of those are suspect. As long as they can track the material as in the first case they can verify the grade of the Ti but still offer only a fraction of the original cost for the waste. It is very expensive to take scrap and melt it all back down for virgin stock so that really isn't an option. We bought US CP2 for the project with the grade and mill markings clearly marked on it to help with the Coast Guard inspection and verification process. So we are looking at belt buckles, hair brooches, caribiners, dive knives, MultiTools all marked with the boat logo to sell to the daycharter guests at their beach kiosk. What do you guys want made from the scrap? 

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Tell Jim to see if Seabird Scientific in Bellevue might want some to make brackets, etc. for their oceanographic sampling equipment.

Cheers, Greg

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15 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Betts sent out welded test panels to a testing lab and they broke their machine twice in pull tests. We are going to need a bigger test machine. One of the test panels sent to the client was subjected to first his big Dual Cab Dually pickup running over it on concrete. Then he had the big high rise forklift at the marina run over it. Still no issues. Then he had the 100 Ton Travelift run over it and he finally saw some bending at the welds but no cracking. All the welding is being done in an inert gas shield. 

    

1?ui=2&ik=e5d06f1df9&attid=0.1.16&permmsgid=msg-f:1604488016166654581&th=1644495989fc1275&view=fimg&sz=s0-l75-ft&attbid=ANGjdJ-JdVe8UhPjEylzhyGaFUuxnz4x_BsSQtjqzrqWI2lVmlCkNBg64hae2WH3WCQZECVG71HyMRt12lvNFf14GlMNaVTuhcNhrK5_24kOxMlRqjrBbEZr50KM9XQ&disp=emb

 

At work, there is a lot of Titanium used in jet engine parts.  There is inert gas shielded welding, as well as electron beam and linear friction welding, although I am not versed on which methods are used with which metals.  Lots of Nickel parts as well.  And processes like "pickling" and "vacuum furnaces" used to treat or temper the various parts.

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It is the metal of choice for prosthetics.

How many ring pulls from aluminium cans do you need to weigh one kilo? What's in ring pulls that makes them so valuable?

Answers: 35,000 and titanium. And the importance of this?

ONE kilo of fused ring pulls provides enough material for Thailand's Mobile Artificial Legs Production Unit to make components for TWO prosthetic legs for victims of landmines

 

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On 1/12/2019 at 5:55 AM, billy backstay said:

 

At work, there is a lot of Titanium used in jet engine parts.  There is inert gas shielded welding, as well as electron beam and linear friction welding, although I am not versed on which methods are used with which metals.  Lots of Nickel parts as well.  And processes like "pickling" and "vacuum furnaces" used to treat or temper the various parts.

This 50' Ti Cat project was originally slated to be done with Friction Stir Welding. Only problem is the term you mention Billy is includes the word 'linear'. Owner didn't want a hard chine design but one that was rather 'non-linear' and the cost of the lease at the facility that had the equipment to implement the stir welding would have been prohibitive. 

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OK, I'm raising my hand to ask a set of dumb questions.....why build a dinner cruise boat out of Ti? What are the benefits and won't it now take a shitload more time now to get a return on investment?

(Is there a built in pig roasting pit too?)

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3 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

This 50' Ti Cat project was originally slated to be done with Friction Stir Welding. Only problem is the term you mention Billy is includes the word 'linear'. Owner didn't want a hard chine design but one that was rather 'non-linear' and the cost of the lease at the facility that had the equipment to implement the stir welding would have been prohibitive. 

 

The LFW at work is made by MTI in the midwest.  It cost a metric shit ton of money, and a specially built super long custom articulating tractor trailer, that also cost a metric shit ton of dosh delivered it, and it was all over the local news when it happened.  Info at the link below.

 

https://www.mtiwelding.com/technologies/linear-friction-welding/

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A long time ago in a country far away a buddy had just started making custom boat parts out of Ti.  Very nice work, and the price was excellent as well. I asked him where he got the raw material and he said he's bought a job lot of scrap Ti from a fellow in East Germany (when there still was one).  I thought this sounded too good to be true and went and bought a Geiger counter from a military surplus place.

Sure enough, it was all as hot as all hell.  Must have been stuff out of a reactor or something.

He recalled all the boat parts, gave his few customers their money back, and then we "disposed" of the remaining pile of stuff.  He went back to farming.

 

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41 minutes ago, billy backstay said:

 

The LFW at work is made by MTI in the midwest.  It cost a metric shit ton of money, and a specially built super long custom articulating tractor trailer, that also cost a metric shit ton of dosh delivered it, and it was all over the local news when it happened.  Info at the link below.

 

https://www.mtiwelding.com/technologies/linear-friction-welding/

Thanks for that link Billy.

    Here is the welding machine that we considered for the Ti Cat. 

image.thumb.png.6a86e9d018571432492c7fe9815ae2f1.png

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I feel like a kid at the little table right now. 

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2 hours ago, hobot said:

....why build a dinner cruise boat out of Ti? What are the benefits and won't it now take a shitload more time now to get a return on investment?

Rasputin22 will correct this but I was told it has to do with Coast Guard certification of passenger-carrying vessels. Running a 50-60-foot cat up on a beach is rough on the hardware. The owner has apparently run the numbers and the ti cat is a financial winner. Betts told me the owner is keeping current with the progress payments, so there's that.

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    The client started with a 27' ply epoxy cat and then built an aluminum 44'er which served well until a daggerboard split the case in a collision with a whale or sea turtle. He next acquired a composite boat that has made a lot of money over a long service period but is nearing its end of life. The rigors of running the boat up on the sand 4 or five times a day for loading and unloading passengers directly from the hotel beach results in a lot of wear and tear on the hull bottoms by abrasion and cyclic loading of the whole structure when the shorebreak is repeatedly lifting the vessel and dropping it back onto the bottom creating vertical G loadings that are unlike what a boat is usually subjected to. Even with all the excellent physical properties of Titanium, there are many considerations that go into foreseeing the anticipated loads and designing accordingly. Then it is often an uphill battle to convince the Coast Guard that such application of a superior material gains any advantage. This is all new territory for the CG and they don't like going out on a limb on passenger carrying vessels. 

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1 hour ago, Rasputin22 said:

    The client started with a 27' ply epoxy cat and then built an aluminum 44'er which served well until a daggerboard split the case in a collision with a whale or sea turtle. He next acquired a composite boat that has made a lot of money over a long service period but is nearing its end of life. The rigors of running the boat up on the sand 4 or five times a day for loading and unloading passengers directly from the hotel beach results in a lot of wear and tear on the hull bottoms by abrasion and cyclic loading of the whole structure when the shorebreak is repeatedly lifting the vessel and dropping it back onto the bottom creating vertical G loadings that are unlike what a boat is usually subjected to. Even with all the excellent physical properties of Titanium, there are many considerations that go into foreseeing the anticipated loads and designing accordingly. Then it is often an uphill battle to convince the Coast Guard that such application of a superior material gains any advantage. This is all new territory for the CG and they don't like going out on a limb on passenger carrying vessels. 

Just a guess, they like steel... 

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11 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Just a guess, they like steel... 

Not that so much but they (USCG) don't like anything that hasn't been in use since Noah built the Ark. We could have gotten this cat certified by them way sooner if we had done the scantlings for Gopher Wood!

    Actually, the first CG guy I spoke with way back at the beginning said that the best approach with the CG engineers and inspectors would be to use the magic word that the CG just loves to hear. No, not please and thank you, but if you are doing outside of their realm of experience is to use the power of the word, 'equivalent', as in 'equivalent to or exceeding' between your novel application of technique or material and something that has long been accepted and in widespread use. 

    He said that we should establish the weight/thickness equivalency of aluminum marine alloy to that of the grade of Titanium that we intended to use for the vessel. Then we should use that to do the scantlings for Aluminum according to the American Bureau of Shipping (ABS) Hi-Speed rule for the intended route and service in which the cat would be operated. Those results and drawings and resulting engineering should be submitted to the CG engineering department in Washinton DC for scrutiny and if our calcs for an aluminum version met their standards and received approval and signature then (and ONLY then) we could submit another case for the boat to be built in Titanium. 

     In our case that would have been 3/16 6061 Aluminum at 2.65 lbs/sq ft verses 3mm Titanium CP2 weighing 2.77 lbs/sq ft. So the displacement between the two versions would be very much the same and the much higher strength to weight of the Ti boat should have no problem getting signed off by the CG when presented to them in that manner. 

     However as we sourced Ti in that gauge we soon found disturbing evidence similar to P-Wop's story above about the Ti being radioactive! One of the original members of the group promoting this project had been involved in procuring Titanium for decades from Russia and had actually imported a couple of the early Russian Titanium hydrofoils. He had been a member of some of the early 'trade missions' just after Glasnost and somehow got all involved with the hydrofoil engineers over there. He had been an insurance salesman for big motoryachts in New York and Ft Lauderdale and claimed to be associated with Dennison Marine and he was certain that he could become a billionaire importing Russian Ti to the US yacht market. He kept turning down the Waikiki catamaran client not knowing just how lucrative a good hotel or cruise line contract for a well thought out daysailing charter catamaran could be. Only the persistence of the client got this project past the prejudices and ignorance of the 'Ti Expert'. 

    There seems to be an amazing amount of 'fake news' about Titanium which may have been the result of the Cold War strategies concerning its use in weapon systems such as submarines and the Blackbird SR-71 in particular. The 3mm Ti from the CG equivalency exercise seemed to be getting too thin for welding hence the original intent to use Friction Stir Welding which doesn't really have to worry about 'blow through' on such thin stock. When the limited ability to FSW the 'non-linear' seams of the compounded surfaces of the catamaran brought the project to Betts table, 4mm was considered but then 1/4" US produced plate was chosen for its clear provenance and no need for Geiger counters in the shop! 

    Many iterations of frame spacing and stringer spacing were modeled and run through the ABS gauntlet and Jim has long used a novel stringer configuration on his metal boats that is very advantageous in helping control proper joining of the adjacent plates. It is not like you can just pick up a phone and order 'Bulb Tee' extruded off the shelf like you can on an aluminum design. A custom die to extrude Ti stringers would have been astronomical even for this project so all the stringers as you can see in this photo are sheared and then press breaked into the desired section profile. 

image.thumb.png.96749ecd0241b732bc994aab27952145.png

 

     The hulls are asymmetrical and the shot above is the relatively flat outer hull skin and in contrast here is a good look at the careful compounding of the tighter inner plate at the turn of the bilge at the stern. One of the capabilities that brought the build to Betts is an old Dutch powered feed English Wheel that is a rare beast these days. It takes a lot of pre-forming of a plate to closely match its final shape on the frames and stringers as the Ti is tough and resilient stuff and the Wheel is a necessity. As thin as the plate/sheet is you can't just throw a flat piece on the stringer/frames and draw it down to the frames like you can with Aluminum. Look at how substantial the strongback and bracing is to keep the hulls true.

image.thumb.png.82c9853d481cb75806a26a73b24e033c.png 

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17 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Thanks for that link Billy.

    Here is the welding machine that we considered for the Ti Cat. 

image.thumb.png.6a86e9d018571432492c7fe9815ae2f1.png

Serious?  You would spend a year building the tooling for the hull. You would probably also scrap a few hulls learning how to do it. FSW is not easy, i spent 9.5 years doing it.

 

Anyways, the hull looks great! 

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17 hours ago, Rasputin22 said:

Thanks for that link Billy.

    Here is the welding machine that we considered for the Ti Cat. 

image.thumb.png.6a86e9d018571432492c7fe9815ae2f1.png

 

Here is a linked story of the LFW arriving in 2015, with pics of the truck and trailer....

 

https://www.wtnh.com/news/business/giant-welding-machine-arrives-at-pratt-whitney/1123450557

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