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Shortforbob

Shutdown anarchy

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Yes really.

This shutdown may serve as an interesting experiment.

For all those "libertarians" Lets have a look at how small government really works..when there is non.

Will people co operate and work together to fill in some of the gaps or take advantage?

 

Airports? 

Housing "projects" 

National parks? Apart from the trash issues..are you going to see more scofflaws taking advantage of the lack of park rangers.

A week ago, Joshua Tree National Park in Southern California was forced to shut down its campgrounds due to “health and safety concerns over near-capacity pit toilets,” according to CNN.

But despite the partial closure, things continued to get worse.

According to National Parks Traveler, visitors are creating illegal roads and driving into some of the park’s most fragile areas. They are also chopping down trees, setting illegal fires, and graffitiing rocks. With Joshua Tree being roughly the size of Delaware, the eight on-duty law enforcement rangers had no way to stop all the prohibited activity.

“We had some pretty extensive four-wheel driving around the entire area to access probably our most significant tree in the park,” Joshua Tree superintendent David Smith told National Parks Traveler. “We have this hybrid live oak tree that is deciduous. It is one of our kind of iconic trees inside the park. People were driving to it and camping under it. Through the virgin desert to get to this location.”

I can't seem to find a list of actual JOBs that are not being done...

and how long until more unpaid workers start taking sick leave...how do you fill your petrol tank to get to work?

If you've got $50 left...Gas or food?

 

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That's a false narrative.  Libertarians believe in as small a government as necessary, not anarchy.

In fact, the shut down is literally the WORST possible answer from a libertarian point of view  - it's an immediate and abrupt interruption while the government is still on the hook in the end to pay for the services.  It's got none of the advantages of a government run enterprise and all of the disadvantages.

There's no way any private sector business is going to 'step in' and set up shop to say, clean national parks, when they know the opportunity is going to disappear once there's a political resolution.

Sorry - the shut down isn't a libertarian ideal at all - it's the WORST option.

 

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What was it that said the comment about only being so many pay weeks and days of food  before anarchy kicks in?

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3 minutes ago, justsomeguy! said:

"Anarchy". 

I don't think it means what you think it means...Maybe lawless mayhem, but not classical anarchy.

https://libcom.org/library/contrasting-classical-anarchism-anarchism-after-1945

Those dumbasses tearing up the place should be punished, of course.

I'm using it in the laymans understanding of the word.

When people can do as they wish and the only constraints are personal morals or sense of communal good..or the "might is right" rule.

Who's going to walk up to a (insert collective noun for a group of Morans) and tell them they can't cut that tree and light that fire? Or to take their trash home? Or they can't use that gun in a national park? 

And that's just the National parks.

Who's keeping order in airports? Who's checking baggage? Who's inspecting food preparation establishments?

Who's stopping desperate people dreaming up their own means to make money..in industries that normally require some regulation and minimum safety regulations? It's a conservative/libertarian dream come true. 

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm using it in the laymans understanding of the word.

No, you're using it in the "powers-that-be" understanding of the word.

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The biggest winners in this travesty are credit card companies with their 16.9% (or likely greater for most) APR.  

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11 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

For all those "libertarians" Lets have a look at how small government really works..when there is non.

For all those "Australians" let's have a look at what libertarians really think about government shutdowns.

Quote

To be clear: A temporary, unplanned shutdown of an undetermined length that probably won't save money is not what most libertarians have in mind when they talk about limited government.

It is, however, a straw man that indicates your usual understanding of libertarians.

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10 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Who's keeping order in airports? Who's checking baggage? Who's inspecting food preparation establishments?

Who's stopping desperate people dreaming up their own means to make money..in industries that normally require some regulation and minimum safety regulations? It's a conservative/libertarian dream come true. 

I've explained to you before that we're the conservatives who are against the drug war, for gay rights, etc. How you manage not to see what that means is astonishing. So let me make it as plain as possible. Conservatives don't support those things. They call me horrible names for supporting those things, even worse than the grabbers here at times.

Small parts of it are a dream come true: the Thousands Standing Around should stay gone until we realize we don't need them and I'm glad that people can now say naughty words like "fuck" on the airwaves.

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11 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

The biggest winners in this travesty are credit card companies with their 16.9% (or likely greater for most) APR.  

Seems a bit high, got a link? 

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13 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

I'm using it in the laymans understanding of the word.

When people can do as they wish and the only constraints are personal morals or sense of communal good..or the "might is right" rule.

Who's going to walk up to a (insert collective noun for a group of Morans) and tell them they can't cut that tree and light that fire? Or to take their trash home? Or they can't use that gun in a national park? 

And that's just the National parks.

Who's keeping order in airports? Who's checking baggage? Who's inspecting food preparation establishments?

Who's stopping desperate people dreaming up their own means to make money..in industries that normally require some regulation and minimum safety regulations? It's a conservative/libertarian dream come true. 

Having worked through three U.S. Government shutdowns, I can point out that you apparently know as much about the U.S. shutdown process as I know suburban Australian libraries.

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1 hour ago, Mickey Rat said:

Seems a bit high, got a link? 

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TERMCBCCINTNS

From another site (based on same data) "In February 2018, the average credit card rate was 15.32%, according to the St. Louis Federal Reserve. However, by August 2018, the average APR rose to 16.46%."

"Good rates" are for people who don't actually need credit cards.  The folks who are going to be dipping into credit to survive the shutdown are more likely paying a LOT higher than 16.46%.  That's always the irony of credit.  Wealthy people who don't necessarily NEED credit are offered really good rates whereas people who NEED credit, have to pay a lot more for it.  That's the free-market equilibrium position.

Welcome to the high price of being poor and one of the truly systemic aspects of poverty.

 

 

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17 minutes ago, cmilliken said:

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TERMCBCCINTNS

From another site (based on same data) "In February 2018, the average credit card rate was 15.32%, according to the St. Louis Federal Reserve. However, by August 2018, the average APR rose to 16.46%."

"Good rates" are for people who don't actually need credit cards.  The folks who are going to be dipping into credit to survive the shutdown are more likely paying a LOT higher than 16.46%.  That's always the irony of credit.  Wealthy people who don't necessarily NEED credit are offered really good rates whereas people who NEED credit, have to pay a lot more for it.  That's the free-market equilibrium position.

Welcome to the high price of being poor and one of the truly systemic aspects of poverty.

1

The owners want their pound of flesh. 

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14 hours ago, Not guilty said:

It really isn't that bad. If you have been sucking on the tit of a government job, you should have enough money saved up to live 22 days without getting paid. I have no sympathy for you if you don't. The country is still running strong and I' sure some dip shits are going to vandalize stuff, but that is going to happen anyway.

Not 22 days of not getting paid. Most government employees who are affected by the shutdown missed their first paycheck this past Friday. So while their pay may be delayed, they have only gone without that money for two days now.

People like Meli do not understand this.

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16 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Yes really.

This shutdown may serve as an interesting experiment.

For all those "libertarians" Lets have a look at how small government really works..when there is non.

Will people co operate and work together to fill in some of the gaps or take advantage?

 

Airports? 

Housing "projects" 

National parks? Apart from the trash issues..are you going to see more scofflaws taking advantage of the lack of park rangers.

 

May I be so bold to point out the fly in the ointment in your thought process. 

This is not a grand experiment in libertarianism. What this is is a grand experiment in just how coddled and dependent people have become by an over-reaching federal government. Rather than pitching in and taking out their own damn trash, cleaning up their mess and leaving things in better shape than they found them, they are crapping up the place. They are crapping up the place because they "expect" government to come along and clean their shit up. They have fallen into the trap of government dependency and people like yourself, the "In Government We Trust" crowd are jumping up and down with great glee to declare how very necessary the need for "government services".

It is called a "conditioned response" and at best it would take far longer than 22 days before people modify their behavior to accommodate a lack of the hand of big government.

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2 hours ago, cmilliken said:
4 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:

Seems a bit high, got a link? 

https://fred.stlouisfed.org/series/TERMCBCCINTNS

From another site (based on same data) "In February 2018, the average credit card rate was 15.32%, according to the St. Louis Federal Reserve. However, by August 2018, the average APR rose to 16.46%."

"Good rates" are for people who don't actually need credit cards.  The folks who are going to be dipping into credit to survive the shutdown are more likely paying a LOT higher than 16.46%.  That's always the irony of credit.  Wealthy people who don't necessarily NEED credit are offered really good rates whereas people who NEED credit, have to pay a lot more for it.  That's the free-market equilibrium position.

Welcome to the high price of being poor and one of the truly systemic aspects of poverty.

This how the game of capitalism, as practiced in the USA, is rigged against those on the lower 85% of the income scale.

And this is in a time of historic low interest rates. The "free market" ideal suggests that consumer credit would trend toward the lower interest rates, but SURPRISE! they don't. Maybe JZK or his new dance partner BillDB can explain why?

-DSK

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23 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

This how the game of capitalism, as practiced in the USA, is rigged against those on the lower 85% of the income scale.

And this is in a time of historic low interest rates. The "free market" ideal suggests that consumer credit would trend toward the lower interest rates, but SURPRISE! they don't. Maybe JZK or his new dance partner BillDB can explain why?

-DSK

Personally, I believe the cause is lack of competition and high barriers to entry.  There are enormous hurdles to becoming a 'bank' and the overhead requirements mean that the idea of a 'community bank' is pretty much an anachronism now.  Those barriers are in place to prevent 'money laundering' and the like.  Because of the speed of electron data transfers, once a bank is 'online' it becomes part of a MUCH larger infrastructure. .With existing 'one size fits all' regulatory structure, there is no obvious answer to the 'free market' problem.  Credit unions offer some shielding and, in general, have lower interest rates.

I think the answer is to deploy the microfinance model domestically.  However, since poor people are disproportionately people of color, any 'trimmed down' banking system (i.e., ones that were impractical for money laundering such as account limits up to $20K and limited transactions of maybe $5K / day)  that impacts poor people would also be seen as discriminatory so ** GASP ** we can't do that! 

I don't have an answer in truth. The financial rules as currently written, don't really allow for local solutions.  

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3 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

May I be so bold to point out the fly in the ointment in your thought process. 

This is not a grand experiment in libertarianism. What this is is a grand experiment in just how coddled and dependent people have become by an over-reaching federal government. Rather than pitching in and taking out their own damn trash, cleaning up their mess and leaving things in better shape than they found them, they are crapping up the place. They are crapping up the place because they "expect" government to come along and clean their shit up. They have fallen into the trap of government dependency and people like yourself, the "In Government We Trust" crowd are jumping up and down with great glee to declare how very necessary the need for "government services".

It is called a "conditioned response" and at best it would take far longer than 22 days before people modify their behavior to accommodate a lack of the hand of big government.

You certainly have the conditioned response of the right wing.

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What the F**k is with Meli and her obsession with the United States? People that actually live here don't post as much daily crap as she does.

As they are now such an upstanding  superpower, can't just focus on China instead?

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Jeezuss Hobs - look who gave you a like.

You may want to rethink your position.

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I love everyone equally....except for Meli, she's off the list untill there's Proof of Life for the dog and the cabinetry gets completed.

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:lol: I rest my case.

Oh and congratulations on your erudition.

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5 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

May I be so bold to point out the fly in the ointment in your thought process. 

This is not a grand experiment in libertarianism. What this is is a grand experiment in just how coddled and dependent people have become by an over-reaching federal government. Rather than pitching in and taking out their own damn trash, cleaning up their mess and leaving things in better shape than they found them, they are crapping up the place. They are crapping up the place because they "expect" government to come along and clean their shit up. They have fallen into the trap of government dependency and people like yourself, the "In Government We Trust" crowd are jumping up and down with great glee to declare how very necessary the need for "government services".

It is called a "conditioned response" and at best it would take far longer than 22 days before people modify their behavior to accommodate a lack of the hand of big government.

How does the United States Coastguard  fit in to your horseshit?  Do you just sorta leave 'em out when they don't fit the narrative?

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12 minutes ago, benwynn said:

How does the United States Coastguard  fit in to your horseshit?  Do you just sorta leave 'em out when they don't fit the narrative?

Constitutional requirement, no?

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6 hours ago, BillDBastard said:

May I be so bold to point out the fly in the ointment in your thought process. 

This is not a grand experiment in libertarianism. What this is is a grand experiment in just how coddled and dependent people have become by an over-reaching federal government. Rather than pitching in and taking out their own damn trash, cleaning up their mess and leaving things in better shape than they found them, they are crapping up the place. They are crapping up the place because they "expect" government to come along and clean their shit up. They have fallen into the trap of government dependency and people like yourself, the "In Government We Trust" crowd are jumping up and down with great glee to declare how very necessary the need for "government services".

It is called a "conditioned response" and at best it would take far longer than 22 days before people modify their behavior to accommodate a lack of the hand of big government.

Well, the "people" don't seem to be buying your point of view.  The "people" might just be smarter than you.  Who would have guessed!

1791177962_ScreenShot2019-01-13at12_20_48PM.png.7afc85f4c637cbf8c942d0bf2bfac5f3.png

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21 hours ago, cmilliken said:

That's a false narrative.  Libertarians believe in as small a government as necessary, not anarchy.

In fact, the shut down is literally the WORST possible answer from a libertarian point of view  - it's an immediate and abrupt interruption while the government is still on the hook in the end to pay for the services.  It's got none of the advantages of a government run enterprise and all of the disadvantages.

There's no way any private sector business is going to 'step in' and set up shop to say, clean national parks, when they know the opportunity is going to disappear once there's a political resolution.

Sorry - the shut down isn't a libertarian ideal at all - it's the WORST option.

 

But do they know it? I think many of them, particularly the Grover Norquist type of Libertarian, do not. The honestly believe that a government small enough to drown in a bathtub is an ideal to be pursued unabated. The good news? Ike said it best. 

  President Dwight Eisenhower, Republican, uttered these words on November 8, 1954:

 

Quote

“Should any political party attempt to abolish social security, unemployment insurance and eliminate labor laws and farm programs, you would not hear of that party again in our political history. There is a tiny splinter group, of course, that believes that you can do these things. Among them are a few Texas oil millionaires, and an occasional politician or businessman from other areas. Their number is negligible and they are stupid.”

 

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20 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Constitutional requirement, no?

To come to our rescue?  No. Not that I know of.

Next up: Commercial air traffic control.

Note that I've got a fairly long list of these before getting remotely close to the "coddled and dependent". Like darkies getting food stamps, for example.

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I don't think this shut down has much to show libertarians. But, I think it should help people have a little more respect for the government employees who are working for them. Republicans like to trash the government with pejoratives or even harm it through vandalism. That's so wrong.

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And while Rome Washington burns, the Dems go to see Hamilton- in flipping PR on a chartered plane.

 

Wow I can see the empathy!  I can feel the desire to get the job done.

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16 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Well, the "people" don't seem to be buying your point of view.  The "people" might just be smarter than you.  Who would have guessed!

1791177962_ScreenShot2019-01-13at12_20_48PM.png.7afc85f4c637cbf8c942d0bf2bfac5f3.png

over 40% approve of that POS and his criminal activities?

Doesn't speak well of the American people.

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33 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:
48 minutes ago, benwynn said:

How does the United States Coastguard  fit in to your horseshit?  Do you just sorta leave 'em out when they don't fit the narrative?

Constitutional requirement, no?

Seriously?

The Constitution isn't really that big or obscure a document. Can you point to a section of it that requires a Coast Guard?

How about restaurant kitchen inspectors? I hope you and your elk all get salmonella. Of course the REAL he-man free man never eats in a restaurant anway, he's too busy digging up the ore to smelt the steel for his own gunZ.

 

5 minutes ago, Hard On The Wind said:

I don't think this shut down has much to show libertarians. But, I think it should help people have a little more respect for the government employees who are working for them. Republicans like to trash the government with pejoratives or even harm it through vandalism. That's so wrong.

Yep, always shrieking about how the gov't is useless, inefficient, parasitic, etc etc.  But notice that none of them are moving out.

-DSK

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52 minutes ago, Snore said:

And while Rome Washington burns, the Dems go to see Hamilton- in flipping PR on a chartered plane.

 

Wow I can see the empathy!  I can feel the desire to get the job done.

don't worry your pretty little partisan head - Clemson football's going to the White House tomorrow.

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9 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Wholly crap. Seriously?

Article I Section 8 and Article 4 Section 4

Bullshit, Bill.

Article 1 - The Legislative Branch
Section 8 - Powers of Congress

<<Back | Table of Contents | Next>>

The Congress shall have Power To lay and collect Taxes, Duties, Imposts and Excises, to pay the Debts and provide for the common Defence and general Welfare of the United States; but all Duties, Imposts and Excises shall be uniform throughout the United States;

To borrow money on the credit of the United States;

To regulate Commerce with foreign Nations, and among the several States, and with the Indian Tribes;

To establish an uniform Rule of Naturalization, and uniform Laws on the subject of Bankruptcies throughout the United States;

To coin Money, regulate the Value thereof, and of foreign Coin, and fix the Standard of Weights and Measures;

To provide for the Punishment of counterfeiting the Securities and current Coin of the United States;

To establish Post Offices and Post Roads;

To promote the Progress of Science and useful Arts, by securing for limited Times to Authors and Inventors the exclusive Right to their respective Writings and Discoveries;

To constitute Tribunals inferior to the supreme Court;

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

To raise and support Armies, but no Appropriation of Money to that Use shall be for a longer Term than two Years;

To provide and maintain a Navy;

To make Rules for the Government and Regulation of the land and naval Forces;

To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia, and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress;

To exercise exclusive Legislation in all Cases whatsoever, over such District (not exceeding ten Miles square) as may, by Cession of particular States, and the acceptance of Congress, become the Seat of the Government of the United States, and to exercise like Authority over all Places purchased by the Consent of the Legislature of the State in which the Same shall be, for the Erection of Forts, Magazines, Arsenals, dock-Yards, and other needful Buildings; And

To make all Laws which shall be necessary and proper for carrying into Execution the foregoing Powers, and all other Powers vested by this Constitution in the Government of the United States, or in any Department or Officer thereof.

 

Article 4 section 4

The United States shall guarantee to every State in this Union a Republican Form of Government, and shall protect each of them against Invasion; and on Application of the Legislature, or of the Executive (when the Legislature cannot be convened) against domestic Violence.

 

Unlike a Navy or a Postal Service (which you righteis happily fuck over) there's no "Coast Guard". You aren't smart and you've just bullshitted your whole life, haven't you bill?

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31 minutes ago, BillDBastard said:

Wholly crap. Seriously?

Article I Section 8 and Article 4 Section 4

Yeah, wholly crap.

Wanna try again, or just go home cryin' in the rain (or snow, depending)?

-DSK

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The constitution mandates the Coast Guard right here:

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

But, but, but.....

But just as important, remember those well-regulated militias keeping and bearing arms?  Well they have a role to play and it doesn't seem to involve packing heat in the local Walmart. 

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia* , and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress**;

 

* Does this mean that Nancy Pelosi gets to spank Wayne LaPierre?  Gotta love those founding fathers.

** Better start setting up those gun safety classes for those dogballs cal varmint guns.

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Makes me proud...https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/air-traffic-controller-pizza-1.4976548

Quote

The pizza-delivering task force from the Gander and Moncton crews is part of a national effort on behalf of Canadian air traffic controllers to show support for their American counterparts, said Peter Duffey, president of the Canadian Air Traffic Control Association (CATCA). 

Duffey said local unions have been asking the national union what they could do to help since the U.S. government shutdown began. On Thursday evening, controllers in Edmonton had the idea to send pizzas across the border to controllers in Alaska.

It snowballed from there. As of Sunday morning, Canadian units have sent pizzas to 35 different units in the U.S.

 

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On 1/13/2019 at 9:51 AM, Shortforbob said:

I'm using it in the laymans understanding of the word.

When people can do as they wish and the only constraints are personal morals or sense of communal good..or the "might is right" rule.

Who's going to walk up to a (insert collective noun for a group of Morans) and tell them they can't cut that tree and light that fire? Or to take their trash home? Or they can't use that gun in a national park? 

And that's just the National parks.

Who's keeping order in airports? Who's checking baggage? Who's inspecting food preparation establishments?

Who's stopping desperate people dreaming up their own means to make money..in industries that normally require some regulation and minimum safety regulations? It's a conservative/libertarian dream come true. 

When you Hero Gough couldn't pass the supply bill through the senate all those years ago, did the Libraries have to close? Where did the homeless go to get water?

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My dad supported Trump because he didn't trust Hillary. And he was proud of his service in WWII, shot full of Nazi shrapnel at the Battle of the Bulge. He carried tiny chunks of German mortar in his legs most of his life, finally left him incapacitated. He never wanted the "blood money" for his wounds, he stayed at the same 10% required for his Purple Heart. Finally a few years ago, he acquiesced to a raise in disability, which helped him a little bit, but it was still far short of the 100% disability where he found himself, and where I found myself, taking care of most his every need, from rolling over to sleep, to changing his diapers. He died in my house a few days ago at 95. He was supposed to get a military honor guard for his funeral. That's not going to happen now because of the government shutdown. C'est la vie, elections have consequences, dad.

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15 hours ago, Left Shift said:

The constitution mandates the Coast Guard right here:

To define and punish Piracies and Felonies committed on the high Seas, and Offenses against the Law of Nations;

To declare War, grant Letters of Marque and Reprisal, and make Rules concerning Captures on Land and Water;

But, but, but.....

But just as important, remember those well-regulated militias keeping and bearing arms?  Well they have a role to play and it doesn't seem to involve packing heat in the local Walmart. 

"To provide for calling forth the Militia to execute the Laws of the Union, suppress Insurrections and repel Invasions;

To provide for organizing, arming, and disciplining, the Militia* , and for governing such Part of them as may be employed in the Service of the United States, reserving to the States respectively, the Appointment of the Officers, and the Authority of training the Militia according to the discipline prescribed by Congress**;

 

* Does this mean that Nancy Pelosi gets to spank Wayne LaPierre?  Gotta love those founding fathers.

** Better start setting up those gun safety classes for those dogballs cal varmint guns.

I think it is important to understand the language of the time.  For example, "regulated" means training. But Publius thought that would be too inconvenient, so its okay to ignore that part of the 2nd amendment. 

In the case you cite, "disciplining" may mean something else. And it also may be too inconvenient. 

Think of the Constitution as a buffet.  You can pass on the "regulation" and "discipline" and just pig out on the "shall not be infringed".  No inconvenience with that one.  Unshakable gospel. From my cold dead hands. 

 

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

My dad supported Trump because he didn't trust Hillary. And he was proud of his service in WWII, shot full of Nazi shrapnel at the Battle of the Bulge. He carried tiny chunks of German mortar in his legs most of his life, finally left him incapacitated. He never wanted the "blood money" for his wounds, he stayed at the same 10% required for his Purple Heart. Finally a few years ago, he acquiesced to a raise in disability, which helped him a little bit, but it was still far short of the 100% disability where he found himself, and where I found myself, taking care of most his every need, from rolling over to sleep, to changing his diapers. He died in my house a few days ago at 95. He was supposed to get a military honor guard for his funeral. That's not going to happen now because of the government shutdown. C'est la vie, elections have consequences, dad.

You did good Mike.  Kudos.  

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47 minutes ago, Amati said:

You did good Mike.  Kudos. 

He did good, I was an impatient asshole.

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On 1/13/2019 at 6:00 AM, BillDBastard said:

Not 22 days of not getting paid. Most government employees who are affected by the shutdown missed their first paycheck this past Friday. So while their pay may be delayed, they have only gone without that money for two days now.

People like Meli do not understand this.

we understand that you are an asshole.

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

My dad supported Trump because he didn't trust Hillary. And he was proud of his service in WWII, shot full of Nazi shrapnel at the Battle of the Bulge. He carried tiny chunks of German mortar in his legs most of his life, finally left him incapacitated. He never wanted the "blood money" for his wounds, he stayed at the same 10% required for his Purple Heart. Finally a few years ago, he acquiesced to a raise in disability, which helped him a little bit, but it was still far short of the 100% disability where he found himself, and where I found myself, taking care of most his every need, from rolling over to sleep, to changing his diapers. He died in my house a few days ago at 95. He was supposed to get a military honor guard for his funeral. That's not going to happen now because of the government shutdown. C'est la vie, elections have consequences, dad.

Damn, but, I'm pretty sure when my step-father croaked (Korean vet, Marines, bad juju shit) it was a volunteer honor guard that showed up. Not from the base.

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40 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Damn, but, I'm pretty sure when my step-father croaked (Korean vet, Marines, bad juju shit) it was a volunteer honor guard that showed up. Not from the base.

My nephew's father in law was a Marine Raider in the Pacific theater of WW2.  When he passed I remember there, the honor guard was mostly volunteers from the local VFW. There were two active duty Marines there however.  When taps was played and the flag folded, it was the most emotional time for me ever at a funeral.

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38 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:
16 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Isn't that a threat to U.S. national security, like our aluminium?

That depends on what kind of pizzas they send.

No hawaiian, no anchovies

Please!

-DSK

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Damn, but, I'm pretty sure when my step-father croaked (Korean vet, Marines, bad juju shit) it was a volunteer honor guard that showed up. Not from the base.

Yeah, it looks like we can get an honor guard of a bunch of other old guys for my dad. I'm told that the VA can't do the regular honor guard because the shutdown.

But when three uncles passed, it was full honor guard, one from the Army, one Navy, and U.S. Air Force for my Uncle Seymour. Those Air Force guys put on quite a show!

Given that my dad helped build the age of the transistor, and helped transition the industry from vacuum tubes to semiconductors and ICs. I think that his honor guard should rightly be seven computer programming guys, they should line up with voltage probes, oscilloscopes and keyboards, and each fire three sparks into the air.

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I'm surprised the va told you that.  they are one of the departments that are fully funded for fy 2019

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Funny..... The VA told us my father didn't meet the requirements for a military send off because as a radio/radar technician on a Destroyer he never was in combat...... Even though his ship was deployed to battle theaters....

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7 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Funny..... The VA told us my father didn't meet the requirements for a military send off because as a radio/radar technician on a Destroyer he never was in combat...... Even though his ship was deployed to battle theaters....

It depends on when he was in the service, and where he was deployed, the fact of what he actually did is immaterial. I'm going thru this process on behalf of my mother, based on my father's military service. The VA gears turn rather slowly.

-DSK

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At my dad's funeral, the honor guard was volunteers.  He wasn't really in combat either, as a weatherman for Gen Chennault and the Flying Tigers.... He did say one of the C-47's he flew in took a bullet once,  and he did mighty battle with some rats and threw a hand grenade in anger at some fish. 

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33 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

It depends on when he was in the service, and where he was deployed, the fact of what he actually did is immaterial. I'm going thru this process on behalf of my mother, based on my father's military service. The VA gears turn rather slowly.

-DSK

WWII Destroyer USS Watts, Pacific.

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

That depends on what kind of pizzas they send.

No hawaiian, no anchovies

Please!

-DSK

No Hawaiian!

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3 hours ago, benwynn said:

My nephew's father in law was a Marine Raider in the Pacific theater of WW2.  When he passed I remember there, the honor guard was mostly volunteers from the local VFW. There were two active duty Marines there however.  When taps was played and the flag folded, it was the most emotional time for me ever at a funeral.

Military funerals can get intense.

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1 minute ago, Amati said:

No Hawaiian!

No eggplant and escargot!

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19 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:
22 minutes ago, Amati said:

No Hawaiian!

No eggplant and escargot!

That's really a thing?

-DSK

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20 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's really a thing?

-DSK

Never been to a pizzeria in Quebec, eh?

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2 hours ago, hermetic said:

I'm surprised the va told you that.  they are one of the departments that are fully funded for fy 2019

Yeah, they're using zero year funds. I'm on hold with the VA, hoping maybe the mortuary guy was wrong. Those old guy honor guards are okay, but the official honor guards are way better. 

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31 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

But Hawaiian pizza is so Canadian! http://time.com/4814056/hawaiian-pizza-pineapple-sam-panopoulos-death/

Next you'll call for poutine to be made illegal.

I thought it was an Aussie thing.

Hawaiin "with less ham", mushroom, onion and chilli. My very own invention "Hawiian Volcano" best with fresh pineapple. :D

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33 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

But Hawaiian pizza is so Canadian! http://time.com/4814056/hawaiian-pizza-pineapple-sam-panopoulos-death/

Next you'll call for poutine to be made illegal.

Never had Hawaiian pizza in Canada, bu I have had a fair a mount of poutine. Great stuff, I'd like to try it side by side with eastern NC BBQ (ie REAL BBQ) but due to extremes of geography and culture I'm afraid it might cause a disturbance in the Force...... or a heart attack

-DSK

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17 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Never had Hawaiian pizza in Canada, bu I have had a fair a mount of poutine. Great stuff, I'd like to try it side by side with eastern NC BBQ (ie REAL BBQ) but due to extremes of geography and culture I'm afraid it might cause a disturbance in the Force...... or a heart attack

-DSK

I go for a blend of Eastern and Western NC BBQ. Heavy on the cider vinegar, but with some ketchup and brown sugar (I actually use molasses).

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Here is a planned byproduct of the shutdown.

'Senior Trump Official' On Shutdown: 'We Do Not Want Most Employees To Return'

An unnamed “senior official in the Trump administration” wrote in an anonymous Daily Caller op-ed Monday that the record-breaking 24-day partial government shutdown “is an opportunity to strip wasteful government agencies for good.” 

While it’s unclear how “senior” this administration official is — many senior Trump officials are still being paid, while the author claims to be “one of the senior officials working without a paycheck” — the op-ed could offer a window into another goal of this shutdown, in addition to using federal workers’ paychecks as leverage in an attempt to extract border wall funds from Congress: starving the government. 

The op-ed’s author wrote that “many federal agencies are now operating more effectively from the top down on a fraction of their workforce” and that “we do not want most employees to return, because we are working better without them.” 

-snip- 

“Now that we are shut down, not only are we identifying and eliminating much of the sabotage and waste, but we are finally working on the president’s agenda,” the official wrote, adding in conclusion: “Wasteful government agencies are fighting for relevance but they will lose. Now is the time to deliver historic change by cutting them down forever.” 

-snip-

Read more: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/senior-trump-official-anonymous-daily-caller-op-ed-shutdown-federal-workers 

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GPS may be effected by the shutdown -

 

https://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2019/01/ripple-effects-shutdown-reach-gps-system-and-beyond/580246/

Excerpt -

Here we go with today’s update. First, an underpublicized degradation of GPS coverage, with consequences for a wide range of businesses. A reader writes:

Your readers might be interested in a little-known but serious consequence of the government shutdown: the loss of the public CORS data supplied by the National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration (see https://www.ngs.noaa.gov/CORS/).

I work for a company that uses CORS data to apply real-time kinematics to vehicle GPS readings. The same CORS data is also used for surveying, GPS-guided farming, and a host of other applications.  All of them will now be forced to rely on private data that may not cover all areas and whose quality may vary. The NOAA data, by contrast, comes from a unique public-private partnership that has very wide coverage. It's also accessible to academic institutions and startups.

This strikes me as yet another way in which the shutdown hurts our core economic competitiveness. Your libertarian readers might think private companies can always make up a shortfall, but in this case they cannot: publicly-curated open-source data is unique.

I suspect that the impact will be most severe on startups and academic projects, which means we are eating our seed corn. Imagine if the founders of Google had to pay high rates for Internet access back in 1995, or if Steve Jobs had to pay a private company for garage space when building Apple.

I don't mean to equate this situation to the suffering of federal workers, but I think it's a distressing example of how the Republicans are willing to sacrifice America

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1 hour ago, badlatitude said:

Here is a planned byproduct of the shutdown.

'Senior Trump Official' On Shutdown: 'We Do Not Want Most Employees To Return'

An unnamed “senior official in the Trump administration” wrote in an anonymous Daily Caller op-ed Monday that the record-breaking 24-day partial government shutdown “is an opportunity to strip wasteful government agencies for good.” 

While it’s unclear how “senior” this administration official is — many senior Trump officials are still being paid, while the author claims to be “one of the senior officials working without a paycheck” — the op-ed could offer a window into another goal of this shutdown, in addition to using federal workers’ paychecks as leverage in an attempt to extract border wall funds from Congress: starving the government. 

The op-ed’s author wrote that “many federal agencies are now operating more effectively from the top down on a fraction of their workforce” and that “we do not want most employees to return, because we are working better without them.” 

-snip- 

“Now that we are shut down, not only are we identifying and eliminating much of the sabotage and waste, but we are finally working on the president’s agenda,” the official wrote, adding in conclusion: “Wasteful government agencies are fighting for relevance but they will lose. Now is the time to deliver historic change by cutting them down forever.” 

-snip-

Read more: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/senior-trump-official-anonymous-daily-caller-op-ed-shutdown-federal-workers 

Also known as "Aggressive Attrition"  

What this means is that anyone good enough to get another job will, and the deadwood stays.  It's an effective filter to concentrate bad workers. 

This is standard GOP strategy, right?  Break the government so you can claim 'Government doesn't work'. 

 

 

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4 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Never been to a pizzeria in Quebec, eh?

Or Seattle-

Hawaiian pizza is supposed to have Canadian bacon on it!

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1 hour ago, Kirwan said:

Also known as "Aggressive Attrition"  

What this means is that anyone good enough to get another job will, and the deadwood stays.  It's an effective filter to concentrate bad workers. 

This is standard GOP strategy, right?  Break the government so you can claim 'Government doesn't work'. 

 

 

It’s clever! So fucking clever!  Fucking!

It will force anarchists over to dinghy anarchy!  Who knew?

A boon for the English dinghy industry!  Prince Phillip’s fingerprints are all over this......<_<

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On 1/13/2019 at 10:04 AM, Not guilty said:

It really isn't that bad. If you have been sucking on the tit of a government job, you should have enough money saved up to live 22 days without getting paid. I have no sympathy for you if you don't. The country is still running strong and I' sure some dip shits are going to vandalize stuff, but that is going to happen anyway.

I guess you don't know many park rangers or something maybe.

Would you still be playing this tune if the legions of extremely well-remunerated contractors involved in the f-35 boondoggle were at home playing on their xboxes? Loads of fat to be trimmed over there, but...

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3 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

I guess you don't know many park rangers or something maybe.

Would you still be playing this tune if the legions of extremely well-remunerated contractors involved in the f-35 boondoggle were at home playing on their xboxes? Loads of fat to be trimmed over there, but...

You're talking to a message machine, there is no hope.

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11 hours ago, Sean said:

This strikes me as yet another way in which the shutdown hurts our core economic competitiveness. Your libertarian readers might think private companies can always make up a shortfall, but in this case they cannot: publicly-curated open-source data is unique.

Interesting but ignorant speculation.

Had he asked a libertarian instead of guessing, he might have been surprised to learn that an expensive disruption that saves no money and costs extra money is NOT actually what we want from government. It's just usually what we get.

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18 hours ago, mikewof said:
21 hours ago, hermetic said:

I'm surprised the va told you that.  they are one of the departments that are fully funded for fy 2019

Yeah, they're using zero year funds. I'm on hold with the VA, hoping maybe the mortuary guy was wrong. Those old guy honor guards are okay, but the official honor guards are way better. 

not sure what zero year funds are, but the va is not affected by the current shutdown.  national cemetery's are, however

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On 1/14/2019 at 8:31 AM, mikewof said:

My dad supported Trump because he didn't trust Hillary. And he was proud of his service in WWII, shot full of Nazi shrapnel at the Battle of the Bulge. He carried tiny chunks of German mortar in his legs most of his life, finally left him incapacitated. He never wanted the "blood money" for his wounds, he stayed at the same 10% required for his Purple Heart. Finally a few years ago, he acquiesced to a raise in disability, which helped him a little bit, but it was still far short of the 100% disability where he found himself, and where I found myself, taking care of most his every need, from rolling over to sleep, to changing his diapers. He died in my house a few days ago at 95. He was supposed to get a military honor guard for his funeral. That's not going to happen now because of the government shutdown. C'est la vie, elections have consequences, dad.

Mikey - I hadn't heard of your Dad's passing.  Sorry for offering condolences like this, but, I hope that the pain of loss is soon replaced by the enjoyment of the memories you shared.  

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55 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Mikey - I hadn't heard of your Dad's passing.  Sorry for offering condolences like this, but, I hope that the pain of loss is soon replaced by the enjoyment of the memories you shared.  

Thanks man.

My dad taught us all to be happy, even if you're walking around with a head full of abuse at an orphanage, or memories of your platoon getting blown to shit, or even with the pain of a 14 sliver-sized pieces of Nazi shrapnel permanently embedded in your legs. He showed me how to be happy not in spite of these things, but because of these things.

Life is a Schreeching Weasel show in Prospect Heights, Illinois in 1988. Seatbelt not required.

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January 15, 2019
Trump’s shutdown trap?
By Thomas Lifson

Has President Trump suckered Democrats and the Deep State into a trap that will enable a radical downsizing of the federal bureaucracy? In only 5 more days of the already-“longest government shutdown in history” (25 days and counting, as of today), a heretofore obscure threshold will be reached, enabling permanent layoffs of bureaucrats furloughed 30 days or more.

Don’t believe me that federal bureaucrats can be laid off? Well, in bureaucratese, a layoff is called a RIF – a Reduction in Force, and of course, it comes with a slew of civil service protections. But, if the guidelines are followed, bureaucrats can be laid off -- as in no more job. It is all explained by Michael Roberts here (updated after the beginning of the partial shutdown):

A reduction in force is a thoughtful and systematic elimination of positions. For all practical purposes, a government RIF is the same thing as a layoff. (snip)

Organizations must stick to predetermined criteria when sorting out what happens to each employee. They must communicate with employees how and why decisions are made. (snip)

In deciding who stays and who goes, federal agencies must take four factors into account:

1. Tenure

2. Veteran status

3. Total federal civilian and military service

4. Performance

Agencies cannot use RIF procedures to fire bad employees. 

A lot of procedures must be followed, and merit (“performance”) is the last consideration, but based on the criteria above, employees already furloughed can be laid off (“RIFed”) once they have been furloughed for 30 days or 22 work days):

When agencies furlough employees for more than 30 calendar days or 22 discontinuous work days, they must use RIF procedures.

An employee can be terminated or moved into an available position….

This seems to be what was referenced in this remarkable essay written by an “unidentified senior Trump official” published in the Daily Caller, which vouches for the authenticity of the author, and explains that it is protecting him or her from adverse career consequences should the name become known. I strongly recommend reading the whole thing.

The purported senior official makes the case that devotion to “process” eats up most of the time of federal bureaucrats and is also used by enemies of President Trump’s initiatives to stymie the legitimate orders issued by his senior officials:

On an average day, roughly 15 percent of the employees around me are exceptional patriots serving their country. I wish I could give competitive salaries to them and no one else. But 80 percent feel no pressure to produce results. If they don’t feel like doing what they are told, they don’t.

Why would they? We can’t fire them. They avoid attention, plan their weekend, schedule vacation, their second job, their next position — some do this in the same position for more than a decade.

They do nothing that warrants punishment and nothing of external value. That is their workday: errands for the sake of errands — administering, refining, following and collaborating on process. “Process is your friend” is what delusional civil servants tell themselves. Even senior officials must gain approval from every rank across their department, other agencies and work units for basic administrative chores.

Then, the senior official notes what I have just called the “trap”:

Most of my career colleagues actively work against the president’s agenda. This means I typically spend about 15 percent of my time on the president’s agenda and 85 percent of my time trying to stop sabotage, and we have no power to get rid of them. Until the shutdown.

Those officials who waste time and stymie the president’s initiatives, but now are not present because they are not categorized as “essential.”

Due to the lack of funding, many federal agencies are now operating more effectively from the top down on a fraction of their workforce, with only select essential personnel serving national security tasks. (snip)

President Trump can end this abuse. Senior officials can reprioritize during an extended shutdown, focus on valuable results and weed out the saboteurs. We do not want most employees to return, because we are working better without them.

Keep in mind that saboteurs cannot be individually identified and RIFed, but they can be included in the layoffs if they meet the criteria above in terms of seniority and service, and that they must be given 60 days’ notice. But once they are gone, they are no longer free to obstruct using the “process” as their friend because they are gone.

Of course, you can expect lawsuits on every conceivable point I suspect that they definition of “furlough” would be one matter of dispute.

If this was the plan all along, it would explain by President Trump goaded Chuck and Nancy in his televised meeting with them last year, boasting that he would claim credit for the showdown. How could they resist a prolonged shutdown when he made it so easy to blame him?

President Trump has proven that he is a “disruptor” who changes the framework of thinking on major issues by refusing to accept the “givens” – the assumptions of how things always have been done, and therefore always must be done.

So, who is the “senior official”? I don’t know, but I think that Stephen Miller is the sort of bold thinker who might volunteer to telegraph the strategy just 5 days before the deadline. Give Chuck and Nancy something to think about, and probably reject as unthinkable. Then they can’t complain that they weren’t warned once the trap is sprung.

Such a mass RIF would be the Trump version of Ronald Reagan firing the air traffic controllers when they went on an illegal strike in 1981. That was completely unexpected by his enemies, vehemently criticized, and successful.

Among other benefits, it taught the leaders of the USSR that Ronald Reagan was a man whose threats cannot be dismissed as mere rhetoric. If you think that Xi Jin-ping, Kim Jong-un, Angela Merkel, and any other foreign leaders would not draw the same conclusion from a massiveRIF, then you are kidding yourself.

My theory may be completely wrong, but I pray that it is not.

Hat tip: Clarice Feldman

https://www.americanthinker.com/blog/20 ... _trap.html

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What a load of crap. Deep States for shallow thinkers. Stephen Miller is a bold thinker?  Thanks for the laughs.

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Don't forget - Blue is easily impressed.

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The administration is trying to weasel out of the more painful parts of the shutdown, quietly declaring more and more departments to be 'essential'. 

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/15/shutdown-employees-work-without-pay-1088020

Gotta get those IRS people back (without pay), because when tax refunds are delayed, people will start to care.  'Gotta protect their phoney baloney jobs'!   Harumph!

 

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11 minutes ago, Kirwan said:

The administration is trying to weasel out of the more painful parts of the shutdown, quietly declaring more and more departments to be 'essential'. 

https://www.politico.com/story/2019/01/15/shutdown-employees-work-without-pay-1088020

Gotta get those IRS people back (without pay), because when tax refunds are delayed, people will start to care.  'Gotta protect their phoney baloney jobs'!   Harumph!

 

Can they force gov't employees to work without pay? I can understand some would want to work for the good of the country, if they can afford to.......

And this is supposed to be capitalism??

-DSK

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It’s pathetic that it’s come to this. A drop in the bucket, but it will help.

 

From Stars and Stripes -

https://www.stripes.com/news/usaa-donates-15-million-to-coast-guard-families-1.564602

In a letter recognizing the anxiety among Coast Guard members who missed paychecks Tuesday because of the partial federal government shutdown, Adm. Karl L. Schultz announced a $15 million donation to support servicemembers.

The donation to the Coast Guard Mutual Assistance, a nonprofit charity that aids members of the Coast Guard, from USAA, a financial services and insurance company, will help the military and civilian workforce in need, said Schultz, commandant of the Coast Guard.

The donation to the Coast Guard Mutual Assistance, a nonprofit charity that aids members of the Coast Guard, from USAA, a financial services and insurance company, will help the military and civilian workforce in need, said Schultz, commandant of the Coast Guard.

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would someone please remind me why the funding of the government as well as the wall was NOT approved during the time of control of all three branches? for those who don't follow, i mean the last two years ending in last month?

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2 minutes ago, aA said:

would someone please remind me why the funding of the government as well as the wall was NOT approved during the time of control of all three branches? for those who don't follow, i mean the last two years ending in last mont