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The Man Who Says The U.S. Has the Best Healthcare Gets His in Canada

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"Sen. Rand Paul (R-KY) will travel to Canada in late January to get hernia surgery, related to the attack he sustained from a neighbor in 2017, according to the Louisville Courier Journal. 

Notably, Paul is adamantly against socialized medicine and has called the idea of a national public health care system “slavery.” Canada enjoys publicly funded universal healthcare. 

At the time of the attack, which was reportedly over lawn maintenance disputes, Paul also suffered six broken ribs and a bruised lung. Paul has sued for damages." 


Read more: https://talkingpointsmemo.com/news/rand-paul-canada-for-surgery 

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You didn't read this part:  His doctor apparently had inexplicably moved to the great frozen north and Paul simply wanted to "keep his doctor", just as Obama promised.  So this is really very bi-partisan of him.

And, having had medical treatment in France, Canada and Germany, I'd say that the health care here in the US is really almost as good.  But we get the thrill of paying for it so we have that warm, fuzzy sense of personal responsibility.

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If you click through to the original article you will see he is going to a privately owned for-profit hospital, not a government run waiting list.

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I have been in both the Canadian and US health care systems.  

The US system is really good:  if you are wealthy or have lots of insurance. 

The Canadian system is almost as good but serves EVERYONE.  And at cost not much different than you are already paying for insurance.  

The quality of the US system isn't of much concern to those that can't access it.  

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4 minutes ago, Tax Man said:

If you click through to the original article you will see he is going to a privately owned for-profit hospital, not a government run waiting list.

I think we all assumed that.  But the irony persists.  Especially since he gets free health care for life here in the good ol' USA due to his meritorious service as a congress critter.

 

And based on my experience when my wife broke her leg in Vancouver, the Canadian system offers a higher level of care at the emergency room.  Private room, full meal service, lots of cross-border follow-up.  Impressed.

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3 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

You didn't read this part:  His doctor apparently had inexplicably moved to the great frozen north and Paul simply wanted to "keep his doctor", just as Obama promised.  So this is really very bi-partisan of him.

And, having had medical treatment in France, Canada and Germany, I'd say that the health care here in the US is really almost as good.  But we get the thrill of paying for it so we have that warm, fuzzy sense of personal responsibility.

I'm going to call it the Ayn Rand solution. Say one thing and do another. Either the U.S. has the best healthcare,  like Rand Paul says it is, or it isn't.

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I have never known True Freedom like I had when I had no health insurance.  I felt like a true Tycoon.  

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1 hour ago, Tax Man said:

If you click through to the original article you will see he is going to a privately owned for-profit hospital, not a government run waiting list.

So what you are saying is ... US for profit medicine isn't as good as Canadian for profit medicine.

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1 hour ago, bugger said:

I have been in both the Canadian and US health care systems.  

The US system is really good:  if you are wealthy or have lots of insurance. 

The Canadian system is almost as good but serves EVERYONE.  And at cost not much different considerably less than you are already paying for insurance.  

And with better outcomes - Canadians live longer

The quality of the US system isn't of much concern to those that can't access it.  

FIFY

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Good for him! Go where you think you can get the best care that you need. If you can afford it, Go to another country where they won't be looking to take your land away from you when you can't pay the bill.

 I got an anesthesiologist bill today for surgery that I had done in June 2018...... $3,984.90

 For one knock out.

 7 months later.

After this bill I'm going to start telling these creeps that my billing cycle for 2018 has ended, and they'll have to look to my local church, or neighbors for payment.

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5 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Good for him! Go where you think you can get the best care that you need. If you can afford it, Go to another country where they won't be looking to take your land away from you when you can't pay the bill.

 I got an anesthesiologist bill today for surgery that I had done in June 2018...... $3,984.90

 For one knock out.

 7 months later.

After this bill I'm going to start telling these creeps that my billing cycle for 2018 has ended, and they'll have to look to my local church, or neighbors for payment.

Interesting, I had to pay privately for an anesthetist a few years back. major 3 hour op. $1000 au..Why IS it so expensive in the USA? 

Maybe that's why he's going to Canada..Private may be less expensive there?

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Freedom

 

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16 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Especially since he gets free health care for life here in the good ol' USA due to his meritorious service as a congress critter.

That's saying a lot. He'd rather pay out of pocket than take the free stuff. Most likely a better service and less expensive than what's offered in the US.

Oh, the outrage! However, I missed the linky where he "Says The U.S. Has the Best Healthcare" please provide.  :rolleyes: 

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I love it..... BL, when called on his stupidity for posting an article attempting disingenuously to link it to Canada's socialized medicine when Ryan is in fact going to a private practitioner - he doubles down and then tries to change the subject to Ryan not using the medical care in the US.  So typical of Bad Latte.  FAIL!

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And BTW - I'm sure Canadian HC is great...... if you don't mind waiting for 6-9 months for an Op.  I work with Canadians out of Montreal and they tell me its not at all uncommon for Canadians who can afford it all go to the US to get their procedures done rather than wait for months with debilitating pain.  

And for the record, I have no issue with socialized medicine.  Its the best way to take care of the poor and the old for basic care.  But lets at least be honest about what it is and is not.  For it to work, its severely rationed care for pretty much only the basics.  You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care.  But in the meantime, you will be in misery until you get your turn.  Again, nothing wrong with that as long as we are honest about it.  

I've long advocated for medicare for all with private supplemental insurance coverage if you want the cadillac medical care and can afford it.  

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19 hours ago, Left Shift said:

You didn't read this part:  His doctor apparently had inexplicably moved to the great frozen north and Paul simply wanted to "keep his doctor", just as Obama promised.  So this is really very bi-partisan of him.

And, having had medical treatment in France, Canada and Germany, I'd say that the health care here in the US is really almost as good.  But we get the thrill of paying for it so we have that warm, fuzzy sense of personal responsibility.

In some areas, like radiotherapy and noninvasive, we're easily the best in the world.

But good medicine is also about consistent care with lower-tech methods like regular blood work and nutrition. And in that area, I believe we have a long way to go.

And if you're broke here, heaven help you, you'll die with the best efficiency.

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53 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

I love it..... BL, when called on his stupidity for posting an article attempting disingenuously to link it to Canada's socialized medicine when Ryan is in fact going to a private practitioner - he doubles down and then tries to change the subject to Ryan not using the medical care in the US.  So typical of Bad Latte.  FAIL!

Dum Dum, look at the headline I posted. Then post a retraction.

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31 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Dum Dum, look at the headline I posted. Then post a retraction.

Uhh no.  The body of your post made it crystal clear that it was all about his supposed hypocrisy over socialized medicine. Nice attempt at deflection, but still a fail.  

20 hours ago, badlatitude said:

Notably, Paul is adamantly against socialized medicine and has called the idea of a national public health care system “slavery.” Canada enjoys publicly funded universal healthcare. 

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20 hours ago, Left Shift said:

You didn't read this part:  His doctor apparently had inexplicably moved to the great frozen north and Paul simply wanted to "keep his doctor", just as Obama promised.  So this is really very bi-partisan of him.

And, having had medical treatment in France, Canada and Germany, I'd say that the health care here in the US is really almost as good.  But we get the thrill of paying for it so we have that warm, fuzzy sense of personal responsibility.

Bad Longitude read it but decided it didn't spin in the correct direction.

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18 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Uhh no.  The body of your post made it crystal clear that it was all about his supposed hypocrisy over socialized medicine. Nice attempt at deflection, but still a fail.  

I made a claim independent of that article. But twist it whatever way you want.

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21 minutes ago, badlatitude said:
44 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Uhh no.  The body of your post made it crystal clear that it was all about his supposed hypocrisy over socialized medicine. Nice attempt at deflection, but still a fail.  

I made a claim independent of that article. But twist it whatever way you want.

Dude, I'm not the one's who twisting here.... gumby.

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And BTW - I'm sure Canadian HC is great...... if you don't mind waiting for 6-9 months for an Op.  I work with Canadians out of Montreal and they tell me its not at all uncommon for Canadians who can afford it all go to the US to get their procedures done rather than wait for months with debilitating pain.  

And for the record, I have no issue with socialized medicine.  Its the best way to take care of the poor and the old for basic care.  But lets at least be honest about what it is and is not.  For it to work, its severely rationed care for pretty much only the basics.  You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care.  But in the meantime, you will be in misery until you get your turn.  Again, nothing wrong with that as long as we are honest about it.  

I've long advocated for medicare for all with private supplemental insurance coverage if you want the cadillac medical care and can afford it.  

As usual you're full of shit.

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10 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Dude, I'm not the one's who twisting here.... gumby.

It sure looks like a twist to me.

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13 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

As usual you're full of shit.

About what?

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40 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

About what?

This in particular.

54 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

For it to work, its severely rationed care for pretty much only the basics.  You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care.  But in the meantime, you will be in misery until you get your turn.  Again, nothing wrong with that as long as we are honest about it. 

Full-on bullshit. I had a knee replaced in 2015, yes I had to wait a bit but the quality of care was first-class, the follow-up was first-class, and it cost me a grand total of $30 CAD.

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22 hours ago, Left Shift said:

You didn't read this part:  His doctor apparently had inexplicably moved to the great frozen north and Paul simply wanted to "keep his doctor", just as Obama promised.  So this is really very bi-partisan of him.

And, having had medical treatment in France, Canada and Germany, I'd say that the health care here in the US is really almost as good.  But we get the thrill of paying for it so we have that warm, fuzzy sense of personal responsibility.

No one should have to pay for their health care.  Or their food, housing or college for that matter.

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2 minutes ago, jzk said:

No one should have to pay for their health care.  Or their food, housing or college for that matter.

Don't forget the free hookers and blow.

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3 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And BTW - I'm sure Canadian HC is great...... if you don't mind waiting for 6-9 months for an Op.  I work with Canadians out of Montreal and they tell me its not at all uncommon for Canadians who can afford it all go to the US to get their procedures done rather than wait for months with debilitating pain.  

And for the record, I have no issue with socialized medicine.  Its the best way to take care of the poor and the old for basic care.  But lets at least be honest about what it is and is not.  For it to work, its severely rationed care for pretty much only the basics.  You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care.  But in the meantime, you will be in misery until you get your turn.  Again, nothing wrong with that as long as we are honest about it.  

I've long advocated for medicare for all with private supplemental insurance coverage if you want the cadillac medical care and can afford it.  

And you think care isn’t rationed in the US? Interesting...

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2 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

Don't forget the free hookers and blow.

And sailboats.  A sailboat is a human right.

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

In some areas, like radiotherapy and noninvasive, we're easily the best in the world.

But good medicine is also about consistent care with lower-tech methods like regular blood work and nutrition. And in that area, I believe we have a long way to go.

And if you're broke here, heaven help you, you'll die with the best efficiency.

Good healthcare also needs patients involved in their own health and wellness.

 

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29 minutes ago, Ishmael said:

This in particular.

Full-on bullshit. I had a knee replaced in 2015, yes I had to wait a bit but the quality of care was first-class, the follow-up was first-class, and it cost me a grand total of $30 CAD.

Every person I know that's had to have a knee replaced in the US has had to wait to have the procedure done.

So to recap - Jeffreaux comes in bullshitting a storm and when confronted says "who me"?

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22 hours ago, badlatitude said:

I'm going to call it the Ayn Rand solution. Say one thing and do another. Either the U.S. has the best healthcare,  like Rand Paul says it is, or it isn't.

How does that article even come close to saying what you're insinuating? 

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17 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Good healthcare also needs patients involved in their own health and wellness.

 

Absolutely.

And patients involved in their own health and wellness is the single biggest threat to the continued profitability of the existing medical industry.

And so the medically-illiterate public is thus inundated in junk science, jargon, disinformation. The priestly class of medical providers shall be the only literate ones able to decade the holy Latin sacrum.

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35 minutes ago, jzk said:

No one should have to pay for their health care.  Or their food, housing or college for that matter.

When the healthcare industry isn't adjusted for income -- which it isn't -- it becomes a tool to prolong the life of the wealthy and shorten the life of the poor, so they no longer become a cost to the wealthy once they are too old to support the manufacturing and service economies.

Everyone pays for healthcare. Some people pay 1% of their annual income, some pay 80% of their annual income, because the price of healthcare is negatively correlated to personal income.

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8 minutes ago, mikewof said:
27 minutes ago, Saorsa said:

Good healthcare also needs patients involved in their own health and wellness.

 

Absolutely.

And patients involved in their own health and wellness is the single biggest threat to the continued profitability of the existing medical industry.

And so the medically-illiterate public is thus inundated in junk science, jargon, disinformation. The priestly class of medical providers shall be the only literate ones able to decade the holy Latin sacrum.

I think you'll find..... if you actually look, as opposed to just hunting for stuff to reinforce your prejudices....... that the "priestly class of medical providers" work really hard to give good info to their patients and to at least some extent, the public.

OTOH if you look at quacks who would rather sell you aromatherapy and magnetic shoe inserts, yeah, misinformation is 90% of the game.

-DSK

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13 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Absolutely.

And patients involved in their own health and wellness is the single biggest threat to the continued profitability of the existing medical industry.

And so the medically-illiterate public is thus inundated in junk science, jargon, disinformation. The priestly class of medical providers shall be the only literate ones able to decade the holy Latin sacrum.

If only we had an actual market in medical care, and then you could compete against the existing medical industry.

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6 minutes ago, jzk said:

If only we had an actual market in medical care, and then you could compete against the existing medical industry.

Transparency would be good, and that is a barrier which is coming down.

OTOH there is plenty of competition for health care, people sell aromatherapy (which is a nice aid to relaxation but it ain't gonna cure cancer) and all kinds of bullshit. People buy it because it's an option they can afford, as well as the salesmanship of the seller.

-DSK

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3 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Transparency would be good, and that is a barrier which is coming down.

OTOH there is plenty of competition for health care, people sell aromatherapy (which is a nice aid to relaxation but it ain't gonna cure cancer) and all kinds of bullshit. People buy it because it's an option they can afford, as well as the salesmanship of the seller.

-DSK

Do you want to live in a free society or not?  Do you want the government making your choices for you?

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“If you think healthcare is expensive now, just wait and see how expensive it is when the Democrats are done fuckin’ it up to make it free.”   Me

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16 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Good for him! Go where you think you can get the best care that you need. If you can afford it, Go to another country where they won't be looking to take your land away from you when you can't pay the bill.

 I got an anesthesiologist bill today for surgery that I had done in June 2018...... $3,984.90

 For one knock out.

 7 months later.

After this bill I'm going to start telling these creeps that my billing cycle for 2018 has ended, and they'll have to look to my local church, or neighbors for payment.

That’s a good point- it’s the dribbling of the bills over years that gets strange, and couple that with the wierd reality that no one really knows what costs will be, ever, you have USA health care.  

And why would Rand Paul stay with a doctor who abandoned the US?

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The problem with health care in Canada is a basic economic one. There is too high (infinite) demand for a commodity that is essentially no cost at time of purchase.  So supply must be finite hence waiting lists. What is an acceptable wait is a matter of debate. I can tell you that if your ailment is life threatening there are no waiting lists. My father who was diagnosed with acute myeloid leukemia   was seen promptly treated, by no less than 5 physicians within 2 days.  He was unfortunatley not treatable to old to survive the chemotherapy. 

My son who had some sort of pain in his hip was seen by no less than 20 physicians in two days  while they tried to diagnose him (they never did figure it out) he recovered and it is mystery. This included an MRI. 

So this dying the hallways bulshit is just that, bullshit.  

Health care is not a right it is a social construct that benefits society as a whole like highways, airports, prisons..... right now we can pay for it what happens down the road is anyone's guess.

 

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And why would Rand Paul stay with a doctor who abandoned the US?

Many physicians I know in the US do not like the system of having an HMO tell them how to practice medicine. The constant negotiations to have a test approved is tiresome and in some cases dangerous. 

The paper work is odious as well. 

Many just say fuck it and decide to put up with the foibles of the Canadian system. 

 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

I think you'll find..... if you actually look, as opposed to just hunting for stuff to reinforce your prejudices....... that the "priestly class of medical providers" work really hard to give good info to their patients and to at least some extent, the public.

OTOH if you look at quacks who would rather sell you aromatherapy and magnetic shoe inserts, yeah, misinformation is 90% of the game.

-DSK

You're right about the doctors, nurses, clinicians, technicians and assistants. I give them full credit, they work themselves to educate. And I don't even have a problem with the industry itself, they have brought us the miracle of contemporary medicine. I don't blame the academics either, hell, I'm one of those fuckers.

But all of these well-meaning people have come together to make a medical industry that is essentially impenetrable to the average work-a-day human who needs a good understanding of the medical care for themselves and their loved ones.

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11 minutes ago, HuronBouy said:

And why would Rand Paul stay with a doctor who abandoned the US?

Many physicians I know in the US do not like the system of having an HMO tell them how to practice medicine. The constant negotiations to have a test approved is tiresome and in some cases dangerous. 

The paper work is odious as well. 

Many just say fuck it and decide to put up with the foibles of the Canadian system. 

 

Fuck Rand Paul. 

Long-live the memory of Paul Rand. Greatest mathematical graphist in modern history.

paul-rand-al-cheruk.jpg

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1 hour ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

How does that article even come close to saying what you're insinuating? 

No one in Congress advocates for American health care more than Rand Paul. The man is a walking advertisement. Of course, you probably defended Ayn Rand when she used Social Security while railing against the evils of it.

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

If only we had an actual market in medical care, and then you could compete against the existing medical industry.

Yeah, for things like plastic mold injectors, furniture manufacturing, gefilte fish and fountain pens ... sure, keep the markets free and clear.

But the medical industry, my dear jzk, that's another beast, isn't it? That's an industry that is the beneficiary of tens of billions of public funds every MONTH.

No, if the medical industry wants public funding then you're damned sure that it should be controlled by the public. It's the same reason why you pray that Air Traffic Controller that is guiding your bullshit flight from your bullshit gambling trip, works for the public, and not for that bullshit airline that is flying your ass from Vegas.

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Why would you bother engaging with someone as fanatically stupid as JerKZ?

Do you actually think you'll enlighten him?

About anything?

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3 hours ago, Amati said:

That’s a good point- it’s the dribbling of the bills over years that gets strange, and couple that with the wierd reality that no one really knows what costs will be, ever, you have USA health care.  

And why would Rand Paul stay with a doctor who abandoned the US?

Sorry, I didn't use the sarcasm font when I wrote that.  I thought my little tale of medical woe was obviously a red herring or a blue crab or something like that. 

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15 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Interesting, I had to pay privately for an anesthetist a few years back

Yes but that is because you wouldn’t shut up and go to sleep.

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10 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Yes but that is because you wouldn’t shut up and go to sleep.

I'll pay that :D

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9 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And BTW - I'm sure Canadian HC is great...... if you don't mind waiting for 6-9 months for an Op.  I work with Canadians out of Montreal and they tell me its not at all uncommon for Canadians who can afford it all go to the US to get their procedures done rather than wait for months with debilitating pain.  

And for the record, I have no issue with socialized medicine.  Its the best way to take care of the poor and the old for basic care.  But lets at least be honest about what it is and is not.  For it to work, its severely rationed care for pretty much only the basics.  You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care.  But in the meantime, you will be in misery until you get your turn.  Again, nothing wrong with that as long as we are honest about it.  

I've long advocated for medicare for all with private supplemental insurance coverage if you want the cadillac medical care and can afford it.  

Exactly this, I pay for mine because it’s an identified risk.  I cannot afford to be out of work for that long, neither can my guys without their wages etc. Especially if it’s something that can easily resolved by paying for it and takes strain of the social system. A lot of the greeedy fuckers in the UK should step up and pay for their own, it would make the private market a little more competitive here as well. 

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1 hour ago, LB 15 said:

Yes but that is because you wouldn’t shut up and go to sleep.

 

59 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I'll pay that :D

Well played, some days you two could almost work as a duo. 

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8 minutes ago, mad said:

 

Well played, some days you two could almost work as a duo. 

Image result for captain and tennille

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10 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care. 

Yeah, you wait for new hips or knees in Canada. Up to 6 months in some case. And it sucks to limp or hobble. But you don't get "the most basic of basic care". You get similar care to the US. I had a very fat friend. They wouldn't give her new knees because she would wear them out too quickly. She had to lose weight first.

But my wife had a mole the Dr. didn't like. 2 days after the biopsy she had a whole cancer team on her to treat the melanoma including counselling if she needed it.

My brother had a numb tingling in his leg that turned into no feeling below the nipples over a few hours. 152 km ambulance ride (he lives way out in the bush). Stayed 3 weeks in the neurology dept at Vancouver's biggest and best hospital, and then another 2 or 3 in a long term rehab facility. Had amazing care immediately with a bunch of neurologists and then physiotherapists. 

All of that is covered by taxes and in BC's case $825/year for my family (my employer pay's 1/2 I think - but it's such a low $/month I barely think about it.). I think it's a pretty good deal, having lived with both systems (4 years in the US).

Everybody else in the first world seems to have managed to do quite ok with some form of gov. healthcare. and everybody gets treated. The US is the sad outlier.

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15 minutes ago, LB 15 said:

Image result for captain and tennille

Cunt,

my back is still like half a dozen broken ribs on each side and I choked on the wine laughing. :P

 

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29 minutes ago, Zonker said:

Yeah, you wait for new hips or knees in Canada. Up to 6 months in some case. And it sucks to limp or hobble. But you don't get "the most basic of basic care". You get similar care to the US. I had a very fat friend. They wouldn't give her new knees because she would wear them out too quickly. She had to lose weight first.

But my wife had a mole the Dr. didn't like. 2 days after the biopsy she had a whole cancer team on her to treat the melanoma including counselling if she needed it.

My brother had a numb tingling in his leg that turned into no feeling below the nipples over a few hours. 152 km ambulance ride (he lives way out in the bush). Stayed 3 weeks in the neurology dept at Vancouver's biggest and best hospital, and then another 2 or 3 in a long term rehab facility. Had amazing care immediately with a bunch of neurologists and then physiotherapists. 

All of that is covered by taxes and in BC's case $825/year for my family (my employer pay's 1/2 I think - but it's such a low $/month I barely think about it.). I think it's a pretty good deal, having lived with both systems (4 years in the US).

Everybody else in the first world seems to have managed to do quite ok with some form of gov. healthcare. and everybody gets treated. The US is the sad outlier.

If our gunutz troll Jeffy thinks Canada hands out the most "basic of basic care", then he most likely assumes that choruses of gilded slave girls should serenade him to distraction in the treatment room as he gets his hangnail gently cared for is the baseline for acceptable medical practice.  

He is, however, becoming a practitioner of the tRumpian art of baldly stating a lie and seeing if he can get it into the general conversation as a viable "truth-like" assertion.  Or even a baseline of belief for the unwashed and poorly educated.

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7 hours ago, mikewof said:

When the healthcare industry isn't adjusted for income -- which it isn't -- it becomes a tool to prolong the life of the wealthy and shorten the life of the poor, so they no longer become a cost to the wealthy once they are too old to support the manufacturing and service economies.

Everyone pays for healthcare. Some people pay 1% of their annual income, some pay 80% of their annual income, because the price of healthcare is negatively correlated to personal income.

On a personal note. My 2019 health insurance premium and deductible , 12,000 and 15,000 respectively, for a family of course , exceeds my mortgage, state and federal taxes and 401 commitments. I somehow think there might be something wrong with the sustainability of that reality. 

Just saying. 

Signed....#justaworkingman.

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1 hour ago, mad said:

Cunt,

my back is still like half a dozen broken ribs on each side and I choked on the wine laughing. :P

 

OMG, I hope you didn't piss yourself. 

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5 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Why would you bother engaging with someone as fanatically stupid as JerKZ?

Do you actually think you'll enlighten him?

About anything?

Truth tends to temporarily mute disinformation. Apply truth liberally.

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1 hour ago, Prof Anthrax said:

On a personal note. My 2019 health insurance premium and deductible , 12,000 and 15,000 respectively, for a family of course , exceeds my mortgage, state and federal taxes and 401 commitments. I somehow think there might be something wrong with the sustainability of that reality. 

Just saying. 

Signed....#justaworkingman.

Yeah, it's not sustainable. The risk/reward ratio is out of whack, and people even slightly well-off than you will increasingly either risk the catastrophic illness to wait for Medicare/Medicaid, or they'll just play their odds same as the insurers, and they'll usually win, assuming the actuaries are pricing the insurance correctly.

Those uninsured then raise the rates of the insured, and then the line moves up, and more people drop out. The uninsured start practicing wellness, their medical costs drop, and the heavily insured people like you receive close to zero incentive to live healthy. 

It'll collapse soon enough, and guys like jzk will look for the next scapegoat. Meanwhile, cutting edge American medical technology will be exported, which then further erodes the profitability of that industry, damaging our economy and creating the need for even higher public health costs.

 

The USSR finally broke apart because their defense industry became unsustainable. The same thing may happen to us, but with our healthcare industries.

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13 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

And BTW - I'm sure Canadian HC is great...... if you don't mind waiting for 6-9 months for an Op.  I work with Canadians out of Montreal and they tell me its not at all uncommon for Canadians who can afford it all go to the US to get their procedures done rather than wait for months with debilitating pain.  

 And for the record, I have no issue with socialized medicine.  Its the best way to take care of the poor and the old for basic care.  But lets at least be honest about what it is and is not.  For it to work, its severely rationed care for pretty much only the basics.  You need new knees or a hip or some other non life-threatening condition, get in line and wait for a long time until your number comes up and then you will get the most basic of basic care.  But in the meantime, you will be in misery until you get your turn.  Again, nothing wrong with that as long as we are honest about it.  

 I've long advocated for medicare for all with private supplemental insurance coverage if you want the cadillac medical care and can afford it.  

Who isn't being honest about it? No-one but those arguing against socialised healthcare systems acts as if the choice is binary. A country with socialised healthcare can (& does) still allow people who can afford to skip the public queue to get surgery done when they want it. The benefits to socialised healthcare is that it also allows those that would never be able to afford a surgery to get it done. I've never seen anyone who advocates for socialised healthcare say otherwise. Mind pointing out some examples of this dishonesty?

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2 hours ago, Zonker said:

Yeah, you wait for new hips or knees in Canada. Up to 6 months in some case. And it sucks to limp or hobble. But you don't get "the most basic of basic care". You get similar care to the US. I had a very fat friend. They wouldn't give her new knees because she would wear them out too quickly. She had to lose weight first.

But my wife had a mole the Dr. didn't like. 2 days after the biopsy she had a whole cancer team on her to treat the melanoma including counselling if she needed it.

My brother had a numb tingling in his leg that turned into no feeling below the nipples over a few hours. 152 km ambulance ride (he lives way out in the bush). Stayed 3 weeks in the neurology dept at Vancouver's biggest and best hospital, and then another 2 or 3 in a long term rehab facility. Had amazing care immediately with a bunch of neurologists and then physiotherapists. 

All of that is covered by taxes and in BC's case $825/year for my family (my employer pay's 1/2 I think - but it's such a low $/month I barely think about it.). I think it's a pretty good deal, having lived with both systems (4 years in the US).

Everybody else in the first world seems to have managed to do quite ok with some form of gov. healthcare. and everybody gets treated. The US is the sad outlier.

Only right wing zealots in the States actually think their pathetic system is better.

Possibly it's because they seem unable to distinguish between a health system and health technology.

Just chalk it up to their limited intellects.

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49 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Truth tends to temporarily mute disinformation. Apply truth liberally.

Apply the ignore button to him - it's more effective.

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14 minutes ago, Bent Sailor said:

 A country with socialised healthcare can (& does) still allow people who can afford to skip the public queue to get surgery done when they want it.

Not here. Money doesn't talk in our system.

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26 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

Not here. Money doesn't talk in our system.

With all due respect - it does. Otherwise Rand Paul wouldn't be getting his surgery. He's paying money for it outright and he wasn't in the public queue because he's not covered by it. His spokesperson was bragging about that actually:

“This is a private, world-renowned hospital separate from any system and people come from around the world to pay cash for their services,”

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That hospital was an old for-profit hospital. It was grandfathered when the whole system went public. It's not like there are dozens like them.

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Apply the ignore button to him - it's more effective.

Not with him. He's not here to troll, he's here with an honest opinion, misinformed (and eventually disinformed) as it may be.

Disagreement is good. There are only a few genuine douche-custards who come here just to vent their personal deficiencies. We tend to ignore those reasonably well.

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1 hour ago, Zonker said:

That hospital was an old for-profit hospital. It was grandfathered when the whole system went public. It's not like there are dozens like them.

Wouldn't matter if it's the ONLY one. It provides a means by which those with money can skip the public queue if they can afford it. That they're not on every street corner simply sets the price.

Kind of the issue when you "grandfather" in exceptions to the rule... as long as they exist, there exists an exception to the rule.

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3 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

Who isn't being honest about it? No-one but those arguing against socialised healthcare systems acts as if the choice is binary. A country with socialised healthcare can (& does) still allow people who can afford to skip the public queue to get surgery done when they want it. The benefits to socialised healthcare is that it also allows those that would never be able to afford a surgery to get it done. I've never seen anyone who advocates for socialised healthcare say otherwise. Mind pointing out some examples of this dishonesty?

 

2 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

Not here. Money doesn't talk in our system.

 

2 hours ago, Bent Sailor said:

With all due respect - it does. Otherwise Rand Paul wouldn't be getting his surgery. He's paying money for it outright and he wasn't in the public queue because he's not covered by it. His spokesperson was bragging about that actually:

“This is a private, world-renowned hospital separate from any system and people come from around the world to pay cash for their services,”

 

You guys are talking as if there was a single Canadian system.  Canada 11 (or 13?) different systems, one for each Province (I'm not sure if the Territories have one each, or a single system for all 3).

Anyways  -  point is  -  some allow private clinics and hospitals  -  some don't. 

Also:

Some Provinces make you pay a (hilariously small, by 'murcan standards) monthly premium, some don't.

Unless something changed dramatically since I lived there, none of them make you pay any sort of "deductible" or "co-pay" (user fee).

 

 

and because I have to mention it every chance I get: we already pay more in taxes, for our fucked-up alphabet soup of ineffective stopgap measures  -  completely aside from whatever insurance premiums we ALSO pay on top of that  -  than they spend in taxes to cover everybody.

I've been here 20 years, and I still can't get over how fucked our non-system is.

 

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The thing is, we already have socialized healthcare here in the US. At least the healthcare covered by employer provided health insurance. Who pays for it? We all do, in the form of higher prices for goods and services. Us self employed shmucks who have to pay for our own coverage also pay for the employer provider coverage for others. 

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15 hours ago, HuronBouy said:

Many physicians I know in the US do not like the system of having an HMO tell them how to practice medicine. The constant negotiations to have a test approved is tiresome and in some cases dangerous. 

The paper work is odious as well. 

Many just say fuck it and decide to put up with the foibles of the Canadian system. 

Or go around them.

6 hours ago, Zonker said:

That hospital was an old for-profit hospital. It was grandfathered when the whole system went public. It's not like there are dozens like them.

Like that.

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20 hours ago, mikewof said:

Yeah, for things like plastic mold injectors, furniture manufacturing, gefilte fish and fountain pens ... sure, keep the markets free and clear.

But the medical industry, my dear jzk, that's another beast, isn't it? That's an industry that is the beneficiary of tens of billions of public funds every MONTH.

No, if the medical industry wants public funding then you're damned sure that it should be controlled by the public. It's the same reason why you pray that Air Traffic Controller that is guiding your bullshit flight from your bullshit gambling trip, works for the public, and not for that bullshit airline that is flying your ass from Vegas.

And cell phones, flat screen TVs, computer processors, laptops.  The industries with the least government involvement are advancing the most rapidly.

I agree that it is backwards that we let the government fuck up the most important industries.  Why is that?

If the government was not involved in health care, we would have already cured cancer.

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13 minutes ago, jzk said:

And cell phones, flat screen TVs, computer processors, laptops.  The industries with the least government involvement are advancing the most rapidly.

lol.

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9 hours ago, frenchie said:

and because I have to mention it every chance I get: we already pay more in taxes, for our fucked-up alphabet soup of ineffective stopgap measures  -  completely aside from whatever insurance premiums we ALSO pay on top of that  -  than they spend in taxes to cover everybody.

I've been here 20 years, and I still can't get over how fucked our non-system is.

This is true.

But conservatives/libertarians all of those fuckwhits will never accept it as true.

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8 minutes ago, jzk said:

And cell phones, flat screen TVs, computer processors, laptops.  The industries with the least government involvement are advancing the most rapidly.

I agree that it is backwards that we let the government fuck up the most important industries.  Why is that?

If the government was not involved in health care, we would have already cured cancer.

Cell phones, flat screen televisions and such are advancing so fast in large part due to trillions of dollars of U.S. tax investment from 1950 to 2000 or so, and then from about $60 billion/year of investment by the Chinese tax dollars.

As for cancer, some forms of cancer are now at 90% survival due to radiotherapy, antimetastatics, and other advanced treatments, which wouldn't even exist without taxpayer investments of up to $50 billion/year.

The idea that these public-funded technologies should be privatized, as you suggest, is obscene to point of nonsense.

And off the subject, "cancer" can no more be "cured" than death can be cured. Some forms of cancer can be survived, some are even benign. But cancer can't be "cured." Even healthy people have some cancer cells that don't metasticize.

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9 hours ago, Sean said:

The thing is, we already have socialized healthcare here in the US. At least the healthcare covered by employer provided health insurance. Who pays for it? We all do, in the form of higher prices for goods and services. Us self employed shmucks who have to pay for our own coverage also pay for the employer provider coverage for others. 

Exactly. Not only that, but beneficiaries of corporate healthcare get SUBSIDIZED healthcare because the corporation writes off their healthcare costs against their taxable profits, even though they receive the benefits of employee retention and employee health.

It's a crooked-as-fuck system, as Frenchie noted. But we'll fix it, we just have a much more difficult problem than smaller countries like Luxembourg and Australia because our healthcare industry is global and multinational, and they use us as a revenue source for their global operations.

In a way, Americans like you and I are subsidising the medical care throughout the rest of the world. That's why I get a little defensive when people from other countries tell me how broken our system is. Yeah, it's broken, but your system works, in part, thanks to us.

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3 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Cell phones, flat screen televisions and such are advancing so fast in large part due to trillions of dollars of U.S. tax investment from 1950 to 2000 or so, and then from about $60 billion/year of investment by the Chinese tax dollars.

As for cancer, some forms of cancer are now at 90% survival due to radiotherapy, antimetastatics, and other advanced treatments, which wouldn't even exist without taxpayer investments of up to $50 billion/year.

The idea that these public-funded technologies should be privatized, as you suggest, is obscene to point of nonsense.

And off the subject, "cancer" can no more be "cured" than death can be cured. Some forms of cancer can be survived, some are even benign. But cancer can't be "cured." Even healthy people have some cancer cells that don't metasticize.

That government spent money on something is not the same as government causing something.

"And off the subject, "cancer" can no more be "cured" than death can be cured."

You should print that one out and frame it.  Almost like "everything that can be invented has been invented," except you really wrote the former quote.

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

That government spent money on something is not the same as government causing something.

"And off the subject, "cancer" can no more be "cured" than death can be cured."

You should print that one out and frame it.  Almost like "everything that can be invented has been invented," except you really wrote the former quote.

You have cancer cells in your body. But they are harmless to you because they are ripped apart by shear forces in the blood when they are unable to bore through arterial walls. And then when when they do, they grow no bigger than the head of a pin when they can't metastasize and add capillaries.

Cancer can be survived, but not cured. Most people just die of other causes before the cancer gets them. And cancer isn't even really cancer, it's just a catchall word that describes hundreds of cancer-like diseases.

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2 minutes ago, mikewof said:

You have cancer cells in your body. But they are harmless to you because they are ripped apart by shear forces in the blood when they are unable to bore through arterial walls. And then when when they do, they grow no bigger than the head of a pin when they can't metastasize and add capillaries.

Cancer can be survived, but not cured. Most people just die of other causes before the cancer gets them. And cancer isn't even really cancer, it's just a catchall word that describes hundreds of cancer-like diseases.

So no point in anyone doing any cancer research then, right?  Especially the government.  I am glad we cleared this up.

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