J28

Are Walls Immoral?

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Joshua sent spies to Jericho, the first city of Canaan to be taken, and discovered that the land was in fear of Israel and their God. The Israelites marched around the walls once every day for six days with the priests and the Ark of the Covenant. On the seventh day they marched seven times around the walls, then the priests blew their ram's horns, the Israelites raised a great shout, and the walls of the city fell. Following God's law of herem the Israelites took no slaves or plunder but slaughtered every man, woman and child in Jericho, sparing only Rahab, a Canaanite prostitute who had sheltered the spies, and her family.

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I'm thankful for my walls. Without 'em, I'd be freezing my ass off.

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1 minute ago, Sean said:

I'm thankful for my walls. Without 'em, I'd be freezing my ass off.

How about your roof?

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Just now, Sean said:

I'm thankful for my walls. Without 'em, I'd be freezing my ass off.

Yeah. My roof would probably come down. At least there's no Mexicans hiding here, we have walls.

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I have walls, and a roof.... I have tiles, that really suck, but ya'know, when you buy an already built place, ya can only do so much before you move in..... I'd love to have saltilo ("Mexican") tile floors, but that int happening until I build a "guest house" on the property that we can live in while I demo the crap that we bought....

 It's difficult living in a place where people have entirely different views on life than you do..... It's not hard to get along with the people, they're easy.... But the crap they eat, and the shitty construction drives me nuts! (And that's a very short drive!)

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15 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

Wall are not immoral they just inevitably don’t work

The USG builds the best prisons in the world. They are exceptional! So why not turn the country into a giant prison? Like North Korea, or the Berlin during the USSR? They are begging for it after all. Nevermind immigration reform, that would be too simple!

Build that wall! 

Build that wall! 

Build that wall! 

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I notice that no one else has brought this up, but just in the way that Jamaican immigration to Great Britain is a payback for colonialism, the influx of possible immigrants from Central America is, in a lot of ways, merely payback for the US colonial policy at the end of the 1800s.  Panama, for instance, would not exist without US interference.  Honduras certainly was a US colonial product of United Fruit.  Hey, were just getting the forseen result of years of colonialism.  If we made the problem, then we are part of the solution, or so it seems to the poor peasant.

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22 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Joshua sent spies to Jericho, the first city of Canaan to be taken, and discovered that the land was in fear of Israel and their God. The Israelites marched around the walls once every day for six days with the priests and the Ark of the Covenant. On the seventh day they marched seven times around the walls, then the priests blew their ram's horns, the Israelites raised a great shout, and the walls of the city fell. Following God's law of herem the Israelites took no slaves or plunder but slaughtered every man, woman and child in Jericho, sparing only Rahab, a Canaanite prostitute who had sheltered the spies, and her family.

I love the Old Testament.  Lots of interesting stories.  Then I skip to Revelation which is much simpler to understand.

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1 minute ago, hasher said:

I love the Old Testament.  Lots of interesting stories.  Then I skip to Revelation which is much simpler to understand.

But the old testament is so much more....... intense. Brutal. Trumpian.....

 If he sinned against you, sin against him ten fold!

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4 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

But the old testament is so much more....... intense. Brutal. Trumpian.....

 If he sinned against you, sin against him ten fold!

He just wouldn't like the prophets (or David and Solomon) much:  

Psalm 105 – Remembering their sojourn:  “When they were few in number, of little account, and strangers in it, wandering from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another people,...”

Psalm 137:1-6 – “By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down and wept…How could we sing the Lord’s song in a foreign land?”

Psalm 146:9 – “The Lord watches over the strangers…”

Ecclesiastes 4:1 – “Look, the tears of the oppressed—with no one to comfort them.”

Isaiah 16:4 – Be a refuge to the outcasts of Moab.

Jeremiah 7:5-7 – “If you do not oppress the alien…then I will dwell with you in this place…”

Jeremiah 22:3-5 – Do no wrong or violence to the alien.

Ezekiel 47:21-22 – The aliens shall be to you as citizens, and shall also be allotted an inheritance.

Zechariah 7:8-10 – Do no oppress the alien.

Malachi 3:5 – The messenger will bear witness against those who thrust aside the alien.

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10 minutes ago, hasher said:

I love the Old Testament.  Lots of interesting stories.  Then I skip to Revelation which is much simpler to understand.

Don't forget that Republicans are Evangelical. There is no old Testament or New Testament for that matter. Their moral standards are set by Breitbart and TMZ.

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12 minutes ago, Laker said:

I notice that no one else has brought this up, but just in the way that Jamaican immigration to Great Britain is a payback for colonialism, the influx of possible immigrants from Central America is, in a lot of ways, merely payback for the US colonial policy at the end of the 1800s.  Panama, for instance, would not exist without US interference.  Honduras certainly was a US colonial product of United Fruit.  Hey, were just getting the forseen result of years of colonialism.  If we made the problem, then we are part of the solution, or so it seems to the poor peasant.

Some day I will tell the story of a man named "Short Poke"...

I need to phrase the story properly, so that certain people who exist in a certain place don't get affected....

 But let me just start by saying that while "Short Poke" was not a tall man, I never noticed it until the bailiff called him to the court room by saying "You! Short man! your time is now!"

I'm 6'2".... And I never really noticed that he was only about 5' tall until that moment...

 

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1 minute ago, badlatitude said:

Don't forget that Republicans are Evangelical. There is no old Testament or New Testament for that matter. Their moral standards are set by Breitbart and TMZ.

Evangelical means following the teaching of the scriptures.  The New Testament is filled with the turn the other cheek and Jesus rebuking Peter for cutting off the ear of the Roman Soldier.  Most (all?) of the disciples were killed in a horrible fashion.  I don't find any sign that Trump's identity lies there.  Nor his followers.

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Just now, hasher said:

Evangelical means following the teaching of the scriptures.  The New Testament is filled with the turn the other cheek and Jesus rebuking Peter for cutting off the ear of the Roman Soldier.  Most (all?) of the disciples were killed in a horrible fashion.  I don't find any sign that Trump's identity lies there.  Nor his followers.

I think I forgot to include the sarcasm font

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9 minutes ago, badlatitude said:

Their moral standards are set by Breitbart and TMZ.

I don't think that was sarcasm.

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Trump wouldn't know a bible if it bit him in his fucking flabby ass.

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2 minutes ago, hasher said:

Evangelical means following the teaching of the scriptures.  The New Testament is filled with the turn the other cheek and Jesus rebuking Peter for cutting off the ear of the Roman Soldier.  Most (all?) of the disciples were killed in a horrible fashion.  I don't find any sign that Trump's identity lies there.  Nor his followers.

image.png.ce81059aa015ae120b53f61112165148.png 

evangelize is as you say,

Evangelical, the proper noun, is a different beast entirely.    It refers to a politically active hypocritical and closed minded individual that is unconscionably certain whatever he wants to do is the will of his god and whatever he dislikes or fears is the devil’s deed.

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29 minutes ago, Laker said:

I notice that no one else has brought this up, but just in the way that Jamaican immigration to Great Britain is a payback for colonialism, the influx of possible immigrants from Central America is, in a lot of ways, merely payback for the US colonial policy at the end of the 1800s.  Panama, for instance, would not exist without US interference.  Honduras certainly was a US colonial product of United Fruit.  Hey, were just getting the forseen result of years of colonialism.  If we made the problem, then we are part of the solution, or so it seems to the poor peasant.

"Yankee Go Home" has morphed into "Yankee We're Coming Home". :D

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1 minute ago, SloopJonB said:

"Yankee Go Home" has morphed into "Yankee We're Coming Home". :D

No, it really hasn't.

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2 minutes ago, Lark said:

image.png.ce81059aa015ae120b53f61112165148.png 

evangelize is as you say,

Evangelical, the proper noun, is a different beast entirely.    It refers to a politically active hypocritical and closed minded individual that is unconscionably certain whatever he wants to do is the will of his god and whatever he dislikes or fears is the devil’s deed.

The evangelicals have actually supported Trump stupidly.  Some actually oppose the wall.  Is the wall immoral?  It goes against the community standards of doing what is generally accepted.    Trump's support of the wall is to appease his base who live in fear of the future because they fail to understand the past and present.  

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23 replies and no one other than @Fakenews (unbelievably) has attempted to answer a simple question:  are walls immoral?

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2 minutes ago, SloopJonB said:

"Yankee Go Home" has morphed into "Yankee We're Coming Home". :D

You don't seem to understand that most of the immigrants to the USA don't think it's their "right" to become US citizens. It's their wish, their prayer, their hope.

 They don't think they "deserve" a car, or a job, they just want the opportunity to get these things by honest work, and diligence.

 Sure there are bad hombres coming across. but most of these people are like your grand parents, or great grandparents....

 I've met a lot of bad people in my 58 years, but I've met 100,000 people who are not bad, or not all that bad.

 Am I good? You decide.

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2 minutes ago, J28 said:

23 replies and no one other than @Fakenews (unbelievably) has attempted to answer a simple question:  are walls immoral?

I answered. Yes they are immoral.

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Evangelicals today focus on the end days and are convinced that the U.S. must support Israel.  I have no problem supporting Israel but I don't find a religious reason for it.  They were convinced that Obama would lead to Armageddon by abandoning Israel.  He did not, would not and it was never going to happen.

Trump on the other hand would see his sons and daughters go to jail so he could continue being blameless for the boil he is on the ass of the USA.  So yes, I'd be very afraid Israel if you rely on this lying piece. 

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4 minutes ago, J28 said:

23 replies and no one other than @Fakenews (unbelievably) has attempted to answer a simple question:  are walls immoral?

Is the wall immoral?  It goes against the community standards of doing what is generally accepted. If I keep writing it will you read it?

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Fakenews - not immoral, but ineffective

Mrleft8 - immoral

Hasher -  It goes against the community standards of doing what is generally accepted (?) - I guess that means it’s immoral...

Any one else?

 

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1 minute ago, J28 said:

I guess that means it’s immoral...

Do have a different meaning than what's found in dictionaries?

 

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59 minutes ago, J28 said:

23 replies and no one other than @Fakenews (unbelievably) has attempted to answer a simple question:  are walls immoral?

I’m not getting all warm and fuzzy.  You’re still an idiot with a shitty boat.

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31 minutes ago, hasher said:

Do have a different meaning than what's found in dictionaries?

 

What is the “community standard”?

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I quoted the prophets and early kings of Israel.  I will point out that the Catholic Churches are the place that refugees of all faiths find solace in Europe and elsewhere.  You know our ancestors are immigrants.  (I admire my ancestors for being those kind of folks).

Community standards are changing today.  But clearly, it is always the desire for the one on the "inside" to close the door behind them.  Let me in, keep them out.

Common decency would be a part of community standards.  Holding up the rights of everyone.  Your life is no greater or lesser than mine.  We have procedures at the border.  People claim asylum.  There is a process.  If we had a government in operation there would be lawyers and Judges evaluating cases.

I don't have answers.  Trump is grandstanding and offering sacred cows to his base.  Atlanta and Georgia in general is full of illegals who work.  They are important to our economy and our country.  If Trump was serious he could crack down on employers.  But no, he just addressed the farmers and said it was fine for them to hire illegals.

I am not cynical.  I find Trump deplorable.  His followers just seem to be selfish or greedy or ignorant or evil or delusional.

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21 minutes ago, Fakenews said:

all warm and fuzzy

Shit, this is what I was looking for.  Did I crash the wrong party?

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@hasher Try to remove Trump or Trump supporters from your thinking.  And let’s forget the word “wall”.  Does a country have a right to have a border or are borders immoral?

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1 minute ago, hasher said:

Shit, this is what I was looking for.  Did I crash the wrong party?

Ignore @Fakenews - he makes no worthwhile contributions.

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2 minutes ago, J28 said:

@hasher Try to remove Trump or Trump supporters from your thinking.  And let’s forget the word “wall”.  Does a country have a right to have a border or are borders immoral?

It can have a border but border walls are stupid.

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1 minute ago, J28 said:

@hasher Try to remove Trump or Trump supporters from your thinking.  And let’s forget the word “wall”.  Does a country have a right to have a border or are borders immoral?

I understand that the Germans used Turkish labor because they needed it.  (May still, but I think not).  They were allowed in, worked, were grateful, and were required to leave as Germany determined.  Germany is a highly more regulated society than ours.  I don't think we'd ever accept that level of control.  But this idea that the government is bad, the immigrant is bad and only the businessmen matter is REDICKORUS.

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14 minutes ago, hasher said:

Shit, this is what I was looking for.  Did I crash the wrong party?

You need to go to Cursing Anarchy and offer a picture of a kitten.

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Just now, Ishmael said:

You need to go to Cursing Anarchy and offer a picture of a kitten.

I have a big black cat.  ( The last time I posted that, people got the wrong idea).  He does sleep in my bed.  Lofts suck when you can't keep the cat off the bed.

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4 minutes ago, hasher said:

I have a big black cat.  ( The last time I posted that, people got the wrong idea).  He does sleep in my bed.  Lofts suck when you can't keep the cat off the bed.

Fly strips and lots of them. Shave the thing when it gets too annoying.

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Just now, Ishmael said:

Fly strips and lots of them. Shave the thing when it gets too annoying.

But I'm in love.

 

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14 minutes ago, hasher said:

But I'm in love.

 

I am not going to go into the steps necessary to make a hat from your pet, you're all alone here.

 

PS. Not too much alum.

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He's still beautiful.  I gave him a raw egg today so his coat will be beautiful when he dies.

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1 minute ago, hasher said:

He's still beautiful.  I gave him a raw egg today so his coat will be beautiful when he dies.

Did you rub him with it or feed it to him? Egged cats are icky.

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3 hours ago, Ishmael said:

Are hedges confusing?

hedge.jpg

My god, it’s the Pagoda Fuana Function!

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I've met some that loved their pets so much they couldn't have another.  I am a whore.  I like animals, a lot.  I will move on to my next true love.  I put it in bowl for him so I could eat without the beggar want to have some of mine.

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I'm currently waiting for a beloved cat to die. He's been bitten twice in the head by a rattlesnake, survived 17+ years of coyote-infested terrain, and now he's just wallowing in ancient misery with no sign of death in sight.

I will be sorry to witness his demise. He may outlive me, if I don't refill that CO2 tank.

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3 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

Joshua sent spies to Jericho, the first city of Canaan to be taken, and discovered that the land was in fear of Israel and their God. The Israelites marched around the walls once every day for six days with the priests and the Ark of the Covenant. On the seventh day they marched seven times around the walls, then the priests blew their ram's horns, the Israelites raised a great shout, and the walls of the city fell. Following God's law of herem the Israelites took no slaves or plunder but slaughtered every man, woman and child in Jericho, sparing only Rahab, a Canaanite prostitute who had sheltered the spies, and her family.

Slaughtering helpless women and kids for the glory of God is sooooo Old Testament. 

Quote

  There are six things that the Lord hates, seven that are an abomination to him: haughty eyes, a lying tongue, and hands that shed innocent blood, a heart that devises wicked plans, feet that make haste to run to evil, a false witness who breathes out lies, and one who sows discord among brothers.

 

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2 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Slaughtering helpless women and kids for the glory of God is sooooo Old Testament. 

 

Jesus, Mark!

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1 minute ago, justsomeguy! said:

I'm currently waiting for a beloved cat to die. He's been bitten twice in the head by a rattlesnake, survived 17+ years of coyote-infested terrain, and now he's just wallowing in ancient misery with no sign of death in sight.

I will be sorry to witness his demise. He may outlive me, if I don't refill that CO2 tank.

I have had several dogs and cats.  My grandfather taught me about the love of animals, if you need to be taught.  He was a gentle man.  I saw a classmate shoot a dog with a bb gun.  It was just a sting, but why?  That is just cruelty.  Children who mistreat animals prospectively treat people the same.  

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2 minutes ago, Amati said:

Jesus, Mark!

Oh, right. Sorry, slaughter everybody! Somebody come over here and video this. Give me your tapes before we whack you, thanks so much.

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3 minutes ago, Amati said:

Jesus, Mark!

  ...and Matthew and Luke!  

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Are we getting all Old Testament now?  There was a prophet mentioned older than time. 

It didn't relate to the story of Jesus.

I only know my questions and what I want to discover.

History is an interesting place, fascinating.  Today is pretty much blow away your brain. (metaphysically).

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7 minutes ago, hasher said:

...if you need to be taught. 

No, I don't.

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14 minutes ago, Amati said:

Jesus, Mark!

Do you love dropping bombs on people?

We carpet bombed the Germans.

Did we really need to send a second nuclear weapon upon Japan?

And they are now among are closest allies.

The Don thinks that Russia wouldn't do what we did if they had the upper hand?

I hope there is deep government that keeps the traitor in check.

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First of all we need some reference point for "immorality"  Are you viewing this from a deontological or teleological point of view. If you are viewing this from a Christian based view of immorality, what degree of the Hellenic thesis/antithesis argument are you going to use?  You have been very fluffy in your approach to a statement of the morality/immorality of anything.  What would the Buddist perspective be here anyway?  Does it call out for your wanting of a thing, this wall?  Does the wall actually exist or is it merely a metaphor whether it has physical substance or not?   In other words, what the f.... sort of question is that?

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4 hours ago, J28 said:

23 replies and no one other than @Fakenews (unbelievably) has attempted to answer a simple question:  are walls immoral?

I won’t whitewash this,   Walls are amoral.

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4 hours ago, hasher said:

I have a big black cat.  ( The last time I posted that, people got the wrong idea).  He does sleep in my bed.  Lofts suck when you can't keep the cat off the bed.

Kittty tower.

3 hours ago, Mark K said:

  ...and Matthew and Luke!  

And duck!

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8 hours ago, Laker said:

I notice that no one else has brought this up, but just in the way that Jamaican immigration to Great Britain is a payback for colonialism, the influx of possible immigrants from Central America is, in a lot of ways, merely payback for the US colonial policy at the end of the 1800s.  Panama, for instance, would not exist without US interference.  Honduras certainly was a US colonial product of United Fruit.  Hey, were just getting the forseen result of years of colonialism.  If we made the problem, then we are part of the solution, or so it seems to the poor peasant.

This got me reading. Wikipedia's entry about banana republics was interesting. .....

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6 hours ago, Lark said:

I won’t whitewash this,   Walls are amoral.

And let us all bow to the concept of "morality" being made up in the first place. 

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6 hours ago, Lark said:
10 hours ago, J28 said:

23 replies and no one other than @Fakenews (unbelievably) has attempted to answer a simple question:  are walls immoral?

I won’t whitewash this,   Walls are amoral.

That's better than being b-moral and WAY better than c-moral

-DSK

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

That's better than being b-moral and WAY better than c-moral

-DSK

 

Moralizing in any form is suspect.   d-moralizing is a real downer.  

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Why do you feel that way?  Do you think that we shouldn't have or enforce national borders? 

Since most illegals came in by air for each of the last seven years, why aren’t we building walls across the runways?  

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10 minutes ago, Lark said:

Since most illegals came in by air for each of the last seven years, why aren’t we building walls across the runways?  

Because they are not illegals at the time of their entry. And for other obvious reasons.

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1 minute ago, Dog said:

Because they are not illegals at the time of their entry. And for other obvious reasons.

The reality of life is that the wall is Dumpster's political promise that has no connection with the issue.  And he wants us to just to nod and say yes sir.  Most are saying no sir.  

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Just now, Dog said:

Because they are not illegals at the time of their entry. And for other obvious reasons.

Asylum seekers aren’t illegal either, unless they drop out of sight before their hearing.    We don’t mind stopping them from traveling,.   If such treatment is good enough for the poorest and most vulnerable, it should be good enough for everybody trying to come to America.   I’m sure Russia will pay for my airport wall.

 

 

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Public Health Notice; please focus on Pelosi and Ocasio-Cortez as thinking about Trump may be hazardous to your health.

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22 minutes ago, Lark said:

Since most illegals came in by air for each of the last seven years, why aren’t we building walls across the runways?  

That doesn't really address the question of border walls being immoral, as asserted by Mme Pelosi.   I'm sincerely interested in the perspectives of those who agree, and trying to understand them. 

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2 minutes ago, Lark said:

Asylum seekers aren’t illegal either, unless they drop out of sight before their hearing.    We don’t mind stopping them from traveling,.   If such treatment is good enough for the poorest and most vulnerable, it should be good enough for everybody trying to come to America.   I’m sure Russia will pay for my airport wall.

 

 

The procedure for seeking asylum is to register at the consulate in one's own country or at a point of entry. The proposed sections of wall are to discourage illegal entry.

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Just now, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

That doesn't really address the question of border walls being immoral, as asserted by Mme Pelosi.   I'm sincerely interested in the perspectives of those who agree, and trying to understand them. 

Can’t help you there.    I can explain why they are ugly and ineffective.   I can explain why lying to the people and saying we wouldn’t have to pay for the wall violates my code of morality.    Morals are vague.things, subject to change.   Hasher did a nice job of explaining why our anti poor and desperate person wall would go against the moral code of a mythical sect called Christians , as instructed by the King James Bible.   Real life Christians have a different moral code.   

 

13 hours ago, hasher said:

He just wouldn't like the prophets (or David and Solomon) much:  

Psalm 105 – Remembering their sojourn:  “When they were few in number, of little account, and strangers in it, wandering from nation to nation, from one kingdom to another people,...”

Psalm 137:1-6 – “By the rivers of Babylon, there we sat down and wept…How could we sing the Lord’s song in a foreign land?”

Psalm 146:9 – “The Lord watches over the strangers…”

Ecclesiastes 4:1 – “Look, the tears of the oppressed—with no one to comfort them.”

Isaiah 16:4 – Be a refuge to the outcasts of Moab.

Jeremiah 7:5-7 – “If you do not oppress the alien…then I will dwell with you in this place…”

Jeremiah 22:3-5 – Do no wrong or violence to the alien.

Ezekiel 47:21-22 – The aliens shall be to you as citizens, and shall also be allotted an inheritance.

Zechariah 7:8-10 – Do no oppress the alien.

Malachi 3:5 – The messenger will bear witness against those who thrust aside the alien.

 

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"Anti poor and desperate person wall"?  You better get a tourniquet for that bleeding heart - as you know well and good that there are a lot of not good people and things that the physical border deters from entry as well.   

Do you advocate an open border, or do you accept that some controls are necessary? 

If you do accept that some controls are necessary, do you also accept that physical barriers are one component of the comprehensive approach to border security?  

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23 minutes ago, Dog said:

The procedure for seeking asylum is to register at the consulate in one's own country or at a point of entry. The proposed sections of wall are to discourage illegal entry.

https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-05-01/how-does-seeking-asylum-work-us-border

Fortunately most assylum needers are going to welcoming countries.  The 18 year old Saudi girl went to Canada.

 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/soviet-pilot-lands-russian-mig-fighter-plane-in-japan

If they bring a warplane with them we make an exception.   

 

 

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7 minutes ago, Lark said:

Can’t help you there.    I can explain why they are ugly and ineffective.   I can explain why lying to the people and saying we wouldn’t have to pay for the wall violates my code of morality.    Morals are vague.things, subject to change.   Hasher did a nice job of explaining why our anti poor and desperate person wall would go against the moral code of a mythical sect called Christians , as instructed by the King James Bible.   Real life Christians have a different moral code.   

 

 

I do not see the statement as being against the ability to control borders.  This particular physical wall I think is immoral in that it's main reason for being is as a monument to an individual.  Hadrian may have his wall, Qin Shi Huang may have had his, but this wall will be bigly, hugely and looooong and therefore the best! It may also be immoral in the same sense as the Berlin Wall.

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5 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

"Anti poor and desperate person wall"?  You better get a tourniquet for that bleeding heart - as you know well and good that there are a lot of not good people and things that the physical border deters from entry as well.   

Do you advocate an open border, or do you accept that some controls are necessary? 

If you do accept that some controls are necessary, do you also accept that physical barriers are one component of the comprehensive approach to border security?  

I don’t claim to be a good Christian and don’t argue the US is a Christian nation, unlike  many conservative Republicans who want the wall.   I am not against immigration control.   I am against the stupid wall and the lie that Mexico will pay for it.   I am against the hypocrisy of my Republican neighbors.

If you want to limit employment to legal people, fix DACA, allow guest workers, keep using sensors and technology to enforce the boarder, and address visa overstays I’m in agreement.   If you just want to build a wall and look puzzled when Mexico doesn’t cough up a check, I’ll call you an idiot.

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2 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

If you do accept that some controls are necessary

How much control?  My neighbors had a dispute over the alley.  The police were called.  I was observing as was another neighbor from Germany.  I was quiet and he was not.  The police said Wolfgang, go in your house.  He did.  If I had been told such I would have replied with an expletive. How much control do you want the government to have?  I like a nice civilized society.  I dated a German girl.  She liked the way we think here rather than her country of origin.

The fact is these immigrants, legal and illegal, are fueling our growth as a nation.  Those with few unique skills or a bad work ethic loose in competition with the labor coming into the country.  This has been the case for time immemorial.  There is no crisis.  Lock up the employers and the immigrants will have no reason to cross the border.  I am no advocating that necessarily, just saying. 

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13 minutes ago, Laker said:

I do not see the statement as being against the ability to control borders.  This particular physical wall I think is immoral in that it's main reason for being is as a monument to an individual.  Hadrian may have his wall, Qin Shi Huang may have had his, but this wall will be bigly, hugely and looooong and therefore the best! It may also be immoral in the same sense as the Berlin Wall.

Thanks for offering this perspective.  It leads to a question, the answer to which should lead to an acceptable compromise of understanding;  It sounds like you're not opposed to physical barriers as a component of border security, rather, your opposition is to the implementation as Pres Trump has described it - is that correct? 

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1 minute ago, hasher said:

How much control?  My neighbors had a dispute over the alley.  The police were called.  I was observing as was another neighbor from Germany.  I was quiet and he was not.  The police said Wolfgang, go in your house.  He did.  If I had been told such I would have replied with an expletive. How much control do you want the government to have?  I like a nice civilized society.  I dated a German girl.  She liked the way we think here rather than her country of origin.

The fact is these immigrants, legal and illegal, are fueling our growth as a nation.  Those with few unique skills or a bad work ethic loose in competition with the labor coming into the country.  This has been the case for time immemorial.  There is no crisis.  Lock up the employers and the immigrants will have no reason to cross the border.  I am no advocating that necessarily, just saying. 

Stipulating to the benefits that many of the legal and illegal immigrants provide also requires an acknowledgement of the portion of the illegal border incursions that are harmful as well.   How much control?  Excellent question, and one that I would say should be answered based upon metrics and pragmatic objectives, I don't know enough to offer an intelligent opinion.   I would say that prevention of illegal incursions is a worthy objective.  I also think that our government has been negligent since the post-Reagan years in addressing the procedural causes - our poorly functioning immigration system, refusal to address the millions already in the country illegally, refusing to address employers who depend upon the black market labor pool of illegal immigrants.  

Border security is important, but, it's a long way from being the only or most important thing to address in the problem of illegal immigrants. 

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6 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Thanks for offering this perspective.  It leads to a question, the answer to which should lead to an acceptable compromise of understandings;  It sounds like you're not opposed to physical barriers as a component of border security, rather, your opposition is to the implementation as Pres Trump has described it - is that correct? 

We already have a lot of physical barriers in place..... I'd be interested in the state of maintenance on them. Not averse to extending/improving barriers where needed and cost-effective; but I wonder if the ones we already have are crumbling like so much of the country's other infrastructure

1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

....   ...   ...

Border security is important, but, it's a long way from being the only or most important thing to address in the problem of illegal immigrants. 

Nailed it

-DSK

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25 minutes ago, Lark said:

https://www.pri.org/stories/2018-05-01/how-does-seeking-asylum-work-us-border

Fortunately most assylum needers are going to welcoming countries.  The 18 year old Saudi girl went to Canada.

 

https://www.history.com/this-day-in-history/soviet-pilot-lands-russian-mig-fighter-plane-in-japan

If they bring a warplane with them we make an exception.   

 

 

So clearly the wall is no impediment to those wishing to apply for asylum legally.

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14 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:

How about your roof?

 

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14 hours ago, Laker said:

I notice that no one else has brought this up, but just in the way that Jamaican immigration to Great Britain is a payback for colonialism, the influx of possible immigrants from Central America is, in a lot of ways, merely payback for the US colonial policy at the end of the 1800s.  Panama, for instance, would not exist without US interference.  Honduras certainly was a US colonial product of United Fruit.  Hey, were just getting the forseen result of years of colonialism.  If we made the problem, then we are part of the solution, or so it seems to the poor peasant.

i've said this numerous times...

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18 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

Thanks for offering this perspective.  It leads to a question, the answer to which should lead to an acceptable compromise of understanding;  It sounds like you're not opposed to physical barriers as a component of border security, rather, your opposition is to the implementation as Pres Trump has described it - is that correct? 

I am not particularly opposed to physical barriers, it is just that I am a little leery of their effectiveness (efficacy) as a large entity. In a military sense, a wall these days is not a great obstruction and I think they must be viewed in that vein.  No, I am not opposed to physical barriers. Just look at the barriers at the borders. Extend that to the middle of the Montana prairie for instance ( I know, different border) and I become skeptical.

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