Steam Flyer

OK capitalists, why should gov't workers work for free?

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What the title says.

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

Thanks to Ches_Guy, I'd like to put this link here for those inclined to offer some help to the Coast Guardsmen caught in the shut-down http://www.cgmahq.org/

As others have pointed out, the US Constitution prohibits forcing people to work for free.

It is also an outrage against the basic principles of capitalism

Could it be that our cheerleaders have their heads wedged up Trumps bee-hind and will get around to defending their principles when a little sunlight gets in there?

-DSK

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6 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

What the title says.

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

Thanks to Ches_Guy, I'd like to put this link here for those inclined to offer some help to the Coast Guardsmen caught in the shut-down http://www.cgmahq.org/

As others have pointed out, the US Constitution prohibits forcing people to work for free.

It is also an outrage against the basic principles of capitalism

Could it be that our cheerleaders have their heads wedged up Trumps bee-hind and will get around to defending their principles when a little sunlight gets in there?

-DSK

As long as President Trump is in the Oval Office, making liberal heads explode, you won't see a change in the current version of "GOP principles".

Mission Accomplished.

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9 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

I didn't know that had happened.

I did hear that some people could either work for deferred pay or quit or be fired. That happens sometimes. But when quitting is an option, I see a bit of a difference between that and slavery.

Who is being compelled to work for no pay?

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2 minutes ago, dogballs Tom said:

I didn't know that had happened.

I did hear that some people could either work for deferred pay or quit or be fired. That happens sometimes. But when quitting is an option, I see a bit of a difference between that and slavery.

Who is being compelled to work for no pay?

Quitting is always an option. Whether you get fired, or whipped, or killed, any person will always have the option to choose. What negative consequences would you accept for "being compelled"?

Nice tap-dance, thanks for coming out into the open as a Trumpette.

I was going to say earlier, but am trying to avoid over-long pedantic posts: as a maneuver to shrink gov't I can see the idealogical appeal of the shut-down to some small-gov't conservatives. But it's dangerous and clumsy. It would be justice if those who think this is cool and fun and proves Trump's leadership had their families all go down with salmonella

-DSK

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55 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

What the title says.

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

Thanks to Ches_Guy, I'd like to put this link here for those inclined to offer some help to the Coast Guardsmen caught in the shut-down http://www.cgmahq.org/

As others have pointed out, the US Constitution prohibits forcing people to work for free.

It is also an outrage against the basic principles of capitalism

Could it be that our cheerleaders have their heads wedged up Trumps bee-hind and will get around to defending their principles when a little sunlight gets in there?

-DSK

Are they working for free or just waiting to get paid?

Is the USG going to stiff them?

What about the ones that don't have to show up for work, do they still get paid for staying home after the shut down is over? 

Is the government a capitalist venture? 

 

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41 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Quitting is always an option. Whether you get fired, or whipped, or killed, any person will always have the option to choose. What negative consequences would you accept for "being compelled"?

Nice tap-dance, thanks for coming out into the open as a Trumpette.

I was going to say earlier, but am trying to avoid over-long pedantic posts: as a maneuver to shrink gov't I can see the idealogical appeal of the shut-down to some small-gov't conservatives. But it's dangerous and clumsy. It would be justice if those who think this is cool and fun and proves Trump's leadership had their families all go down with salmonella

-DSK

Funny that you think that without the federal government, we would all get salmonella.  

Did you mention something about religion?

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6 minutes ago, jzk said:

Funny that you think that without the federal government, we would all get salmonella.  

Did you mention something about religion?

Salmonella killed close to a thousand USAneans last year, and the year before that, and the year before that....... that was -with- food inspectors.

Now I can hear you arguing the point now, gee w should just fire them all if they're that ineffective. This childishly assumes tha nothing ever goes wrong in the real world, aside the the added factor that food companies make bigger short-term profits when they cut corners.

Nice diversion from the the main thread subject. I see your own capitalist principles are flexible enough to apparently feel it's fine when Trump does it. No surprise there

-DSK

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Being forced to work with pay withheld/deferred shouldn’t be happening, but I didn’t know anyone was “working for free.” Why misrepresent what’s happening as it applies to the Constitution (presumably you mean the 13th amendment)?

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1 minute ago, Steam Flyer said:

Salmonella killed close to a thousand USAneans last year, and the year before that, and the year before that....... that was -with- food inspectors.

Now I can hear you arguing the point now, gee w should just fire them all if they're that ineffective. This childishly assumes tha nothing ever goes wrong in the real world, aside the the added factor that food companies make bigger short-term profits when they cut corners.

Nice diversion from the the main thread subject. I see your own capitalist principles are flexible enough to apparently feel it's fine when Trump does it. No surprise there

-DSK

You don't trust people.  You need other people to control them.  How can you trust those "other" people?

What stupid logic you have.  You cite that salmonella is a problem, and therefore automatically the federal government is the solution?

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1 minute ago, MidPack said:

Being forced to work with pay withheld/deferred shouldn’t be happening, but I didn’t know anyone was “working for free.” 

This whole shutdown thing is very silly.  We have to pay it all anyway.  

That being said, who is being "forced" to work with pay deferred?  

What does "force" mean to you?  

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4 minutes ago, jzk said:

This whole shutdown thing is very silly.  We have to pay it all anyway.  

That being said, who is being "forced" to work with pay deferred?  

What does "force" mean to you?  

Great, another PA thread that instantly devolves into picking nits instead of the substance of the question. Knock yourself out...

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IMHO - anyone who's working thru a shutdown by virtue of being deemed "essential personnel" should be paid - it's absolute BS to wreck the financial stability of the people who we depend upon to do the essential work of government.  "Shutting down government" is stupid, costly, and if people are doing their damn jobs, completely unnecessary.  

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18 minutes ago, jzk said:

You don't trust people.  You need other people to control them.  How can you trust those "other" people?

What stupid logic you have.  You cite that salmonella is a problem, and therefore automatically the federal government is the solution?

Nothing "automatic" about it.

Could food processing companies eliminate food-born disease?

Probably not completely, but they could certainly knock it down to a tiny percent of what it IS (note the reference to reality)

Why don't they?

-DSK

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1 minute ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

IMHO - anyone who's working thru a shutdown by virtue of being deemed "essential personnel" should be paid - it's absolute BS to wreck the financial stability of the people who we depend upon to do the essential work of government.  "Shutting down government" is stupid, costly, and if people are doing their damn jobs, completely unnecessary.  

Agreed completely

I also think it's heinous that politicians and political appointees are getting paid thru all this, whether they are working or not

As  I mentioned in another thread, the voters of this country (including those who could vote but have not done so) have really screwed the pooch

-DSK

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18 minutes ago, jzk said:

This whole shutdown thing is very silly.  We have to pay it all anyway.  

That being said, who is being "forced" to work with pay deferred?  

What does "force" mean to you?  

There are many who are being forced to work w/deferred pay - TSA, USCG, and many other functions deemed essential, but that by law can't be funded w/out congressional appropriations.  Those who's paychecks are being deferred still have to buy gas, eat, pay the electric bill, mortgage, rent, daycare - their expenses aren't paused just because their paychecks are.  Force - means that they are compelled by statute or circumstances to do things that are harmful - like spending $$ they don't have, or NOT spending the $$ they counted on to maintain themselves.  The Coasties can't quit - they don't show up?  They are subject to legal penalties.  Essential personnel who hope to maintain their jobs?  Same thing - they don't show up, they will get fired.  The threat of firing looks an awful lot like "force" to me. 

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17 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Nothing "automatic" about it.

Could food processing companies eliminate food-born disease?

Probably not completely, but they could certainly knock it down to a tiny percent of what it IS (note the reference to reality)

Why don't they?

-DSK

Who cares more about eliminating food-born disease?  The business owner and insurance company that has to pay for the consequences of those diseases, or some random guy on the government payroll?  

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5 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

 The Coasties can't quit - they don't show up?  They are subject to legal penalties.

That ones particularly nasty about this shutdown. No pay, can't not showup.

The stupidity of the "just quit" brigade ignores that the government can't hire replacements now. Now - for the hardcore libertarians who've already bullshitted here, that's a feature, not a bug. For those of us who see useful services from the government, that's bad.

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3 minutes ago, jzk said:

Who cares more about eliminating food-born disease?  The business owner and insurance company that has to pay for the consequences of those diseases, or some random guy on the government payroll?  

Judging by industrys inability to reduce them without regulation - the "random guy on the government payrool"*

* who is almost certainly smarter and more knowledgeable than a dumbfuck libertarian troll giving away his knowledge for free on the internet because face it - you and dogballs should be paying people to read your dumb bullshit. it's a market failure you don't.

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43 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

IMHO - anyone who's working thru a shutdown by virtue of being deemed "essential personnel" should be paid - it's absolute BS to wreck the financial stability of the people who we depend upon to do the essential work of government.  "Shutting down government" is stupid, costly, and if people are doing their damn jobs, completely unnecessary.  

Agreed.

And, let us not forget the damage is not being limited to only those who are furloughed.  Anyone who is dealing with them has to absorb some of the pain.

One friend is maxing out her credit card to pay for childcare while she reports to work and is not being paid.  Staying home is not an option, as she is designated as "essential".  If she doesn't stay current, she will need to make other arrangements and her spots will go to others.  I heard some "helpful" folks share that the childcare facility should waive the payments until the furlough ends.  Yeah, that's a great idea.  How about we ask a childcare facility in the DC metro area how that might affect their ability to stay in business?

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2 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:

Is the government a capitalist venture? 

That's really where the analogy breaks down.

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8 minutes ago, cmilliken said:
2 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:

Is the government a capitalist venture? 

That's really where the analogy breaks down.

"The government" must be financially self-sustaining. The government of the USA is most often said to follow capitalist principles. Capitalism is widely and avidly espoused or defended here. Our laws encompass many capitalist principles.

-DSK

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3 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

What the title says.

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

Thanks to Ches_Guy, I'd like to put this link here for those inclined to offer some help to the Coast Guardsmen caught in the shut-down http://www.cgmahq.org/

As others have pointed out, the US Constitution prohibits forcing people to work for free.

It is also an outrage against the basic principles of capitalism

Could it be that our cheerleaders have their heads wedged up Trumps bee-hind and will get around to defending their principles when a little sunlight gets in there?

-DSK

Steam - I agree with you on that but remember also that there are a lot of employees sitting home right now who will get full back pay for doing nothing during the whole shut down. Is this a government policy to pay people for not doing their jobs?

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These guys probably aren't worried about salmonella.

15053328_web1_M-Air-travel-EDH-190109.jp

Air Force One: "Tower, AF1 ready to taxi."

Tower: "AF1, Hold."

Air Force One: "Holding. How long?"

Tower: "Until Shitstain sends me a paycheck."

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Sol better dust off the Ebola thread. I think he needs to expand its coverage...

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2 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I also think it's heinous that politicians and political appointees are getting paid thru all this, whether they are working or not

As  I mentioned in another thread, the voters of this country (including those who could vote but have not done so) have really screwed the pooch

-DSK

I agree, but as my wife noted, most of those people could easily weather having their pay withheld (no government employee is ultimately working for free that I know of) for weeks, months or years. Most of them don’t live paycheck to paycheck. So it looks bad, but it probably wouldn’t make much if any difference in their childish behavior.

I recently read that 80% of all Americans live paycheck to paycheck. That’s alarmingly high? I’d like to think more than 20% of Americans could have more money in reserve if they chose to.

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1 hour ago, jzk said:

Who cares more about eliminating food-born disease?   ...    ...    ...

The people eating it?

1 hour ago, jzk said:

....    ...    ...  The business owner and insurance company that has to pay for the consequences of those diseases, or some random guy on the government payroll?  

 

Are you under the impression that the court system which enforces "having to pay for the consequences" are somehow not part of the government?

Also, I hate to inject harsh reality into your dreamworld, but insurance companies and business owners were (and are) ignoring the consequences of food-born illness for a long time. Remember the Pinto.

-DSK

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15 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The people eating it?

And the people eating it are also paying for the inspections not getting done. Vlad smiles knowingly.

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4 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

What the title says.

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

Thanks to Ches_Guy, I'd like to put this link here for those inclined to offer some help to the Coast Guardsmen caught in the shut-down http://www.cgmahq.org/

As others have pointed out, the US Constitution prohibits forcing people to work for free.

It is also an outrage against the basic principles of capitalism

Could it be that our cheerleaders have their heads wedged up Trumps bee-hind and will get around to defending their principles when a little sunlight gets in there?

-DSK

Actually I'm fairly outraged that they are making some federal workers work without pay.  I think its a travesty and if they are that essential that the country shuts down without them, then fucking pay them.  No pay, no work is my mindset.  It seems completely illegal to force them to work without pay.  I'm surprised this has not been challenged in court yet.  

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2 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

There are many who are being forced to work w/deferred pay - TSA, USCG, and many other functions deemed essential, but that by law can't be funded w/out congressional appropriations.  Those who's paychecks are being deferred still have to buy gas, eat, pay the electric bill, mortgage, rent, daycare - their expenses aren't paused just because their paychecks are.  Force - means that they are compelled by statute or circumstances to do things that are harmful - like spending $$ they don't have, or NOT spending the $$ they counted on to maintain themselves.  The Coasties can't quit - they don't show up?  They are subject to legal penalties.  Essential personnel who hope to maintain their jobs?  Same thing - they don't show up, they will get fired.  The threat of firing looks an awful lot like "force" to me. 

yep

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34 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Remember the Pinto.

Wasn't that once of Chris Columbus's ships??

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17 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Wasn't that once of Chris Columbus's ships??

Pinta was one of Columbus’ ships..... Pinto was a US car?... Or a blotchy horse?

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They work for us.  Have you had anyone work for you? Of course you have.  And you pay them.

I like going camping in National Parks.  I am always amazed by the orderliness and safety I experience with my family.  I am enthralled by this world of technology that will allow me to go anywhere I'd like at amazing speeds.  I have good food, nice roads, safe streets and a myriad of other benefits from Uncle Sam. 

This shut down makes zero sense (cents?).

Perhaps a national strike would be our best response.  Let's stop all work until the overseers wake up. 

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

The people eating it?

 

Are you under the impression that the court system which enforces "having to pay for the consequences" are somehow not part of the government?

Also, I hate to inject harsh reality into your dreamworld, but insurance companies and business owners were (and are) ignoring the consequences of food-born illness for a long time. Remember the Pinto.

-DSK

Yes, clown boy, the people eating it care about eating good food.  That is why they will buy food from reputable places that have industry certifications etc.  No government priests necessary to bless your food for you.

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57 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Actually I'm fairly outraged that they are making some federal workers work without pay.  I think its a travesty and if they are that essential that the country shuts down without them, then fucking pay them.  No pay, no work is my mindset.  It seems completely illegal to force them to work without pay.  I'm surprised this has not been challenged in court yet.  

three unions sued (air traffic controllers, treasury workers, and one other)  the judge did not side with the unions.  but it's not over

U.S. District Judge Richard J. Leon announced the decision on Tuesday afternoon

edit: two unions and some individual fed workers

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16 minutes ago, jzk said:

Yes, clown boy, the people eating it care about eating good food.  That is why they will buy food from reputable places that have industry certifications etc.  No government priests necessary to bless your food for you.

you are being willfully obtuse

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56 minutes ago, Sidecar said:
58 minutes ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Wasn't that once of Chris Columbus's ships??

Pinta was one of Columbus’ ships.

Whoosh!

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1 hour ago, MidPack said:

I agree, but as my wife noted, most of those people could easily weather having their pay withheld (no government employee is ultimately working for free that I know of) for weeks, months or years. Most of them don’t live paycheck to paycheck. So it looks bad, but it probably wouldn’t make much if any difference in their childish behavior.

I recently read that 80% of all Americans live paycheck to paycheck. That’s alarmingly high? I’d like to think more than 20% of Americans could have more money in reserve if they chose to.

I think she's wrong. I would guess most of the furloughed are running out of funds.

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Actually I'm fairly outraged that they are making some federal workers work without pay.  I think its a travesty and if they are that essential that the country shuts down without them, then fucking pay them.  No pay, no work is my mindset.  It seems completely illegal to force them to work without pay.  I'm surprised this has not been challenged in court yet.  

I believe it has been. Someone will have a cite.

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

What the title says.

I'm surprised that more of the self-appointed cheerleaders for capitalism (you know who you are) have not loudly condemned the forcing of gov't workers to come in and do their jobs with no pay.

Thanks to Ches_Guy, I'd like to put this link here for those inclined to offer some help to the Coast Guardsmen caught in the shut-down http://www.cgmahq.org/

As others have pointed out, the US Constitution prohibits forcing people to work for free.

It is also an outrage against the basic principles of capitalism

Could it be that our cheerleaders have their heads wedged up Trumps bee-hind and will get around to defending their principles when a little sunlight gets in there?

-DSK

 

Well, if going into your contract that is a condition then I guess you knew it up front. First responders in Florida know that even if there is a disruption of the paycheck system, say a hurricane hits Tallahassee, they still have to show up for work, work overtime and can have vacations and holidays canceled. 

For others, if they expect to be paid after the fact they should also do the expected work. If any are in a situation where they are told to show up but they won't get paid and their contact has no provision for that, then they should not have to work. 

Democrats should let Trump build his wall and move on.

  1. The impact on the economy is already well past the amount he is seeking. 
  2. The spending is kind of a mini-stimulus.
  3. Dems insist the wall is ineffective so what does it matter if it exists or not. (maybe they really think it will be effective?)
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28 minutes ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
45 minutes ago, jzk said:

Yes, clown boy, the people eating it care about eating good food.  That is why they will buy food from reputable places that have industry certifications etc.  No government priests necessary to bless your food for you.

you are being willfully obtuse

It's a religious thing. Try talking to the Mormons about genetic markers, Jewish ancestry, and Lamanites. You get the same willful ignorance of reality because accepting facts undermines their faith in a system they desperately want/need to believe in.

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

I think she's wrong. I would guess most of the furloughed are running out of funds.

I think this is about the House and the Senate - not the civil service. Most of the Congressmen and Senators seem to have so much more money than can be accounted for from their government paychecks that all but the newest ones probably don't give a shit about their government pay :rolleyes:

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5 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:

IMHO - anyone who's working thru a shutdown by virtue of being deemed "essential personnel" should be paid - it's absolute BS to wreck the financial stability of the people who we depend upon to do the essential work of government.  "Shutting down government" is stupid, costly, and if people are doing their damn jobs, completely unnecessary.  

Whenever someone comes around to pick the "essential" guy we all hide. Who wants to drive in and spend gas money for no pay :angry: And no, the gas station, bank, day care, etc etc do not take IOUs.

Anyone know if their is some kind of charity for the USCG?

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5 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I also think it's heinous that politicians and political appointees are getting paid thru all this, whether they are working or not

As  I mentioned in another thread, the voters of this country (including those who could vote but have not done so) have really screwed the pooch.

 

3 hours ago, MidPack said:

I agree, but as my wife noted, most of those people could easily weather having their pay withheld (no government employee is ultimately working for free that I know of) for weeks, months or years. Most of them don’t live paycheck to paycheck. So it looks bad, but it probably wouldn’t make much if any difference in their childish behavior.

 

1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

I think she's wrong. I would guess most of the furloughed are running out of funds.

You realize I was talking about “politicians and political appointees” right? I stand by my wife’s observation.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Whenever someone comes around to pick the "essential" guy we all hide. Who wants to drive in and spend gas money for no pay :angry: And no, the gas station, bank, day care, etc etc do not take IOUs.

Anyone know if their is some kind of charity for the USCG?

Been posted a few places - http://www.cgmahq.org/ 

 

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42 minutes ago, MidPack said:

 

 

You realize I was talking about “politicians and political appointees” right? I stand by my wife’s observation.

Oh, who cares about them?

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1 hour ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Democrats should let Trump build his wall and move on.

  1. The impact on the economy is already well past the amount he is seeking. 
  2. The spending is kind of a mini-stimulus.
  3. Dems insist the wall is ineffective so what does it matter if it exists or not. (maybe they really think it will be effective?)

So, using your logic, all the President has to do is through an expensive tantrum and we should give him what he wants.

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1 hour ago, Raz'r said:

Oh, who cares about them?

Steam Flyer initiated the thought.

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5 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Actually I'm fairly outraged that they are making some federal workers work without pay.  I think its a travesty and if they are that essential that the country shuts down without them, then fucking pay them.  No pay, no work is my mindset.  It seems completely illegal to force them to work without pay.  I'm surprised this has not been challenged in court yet.  

Why? Someone’s gotta get burned in this Drumpf-ster fire you wished for.

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4 hours ago, hasher said:

They work for us.  Have you had anyone work for you? Of course you have.  And you pay them.

I like going camping in National Parks.  I am always amazed by the orderliness and safety I experience with my family.  I am enthralled by this world of technology that will allow me to go anywhere I'd like at amazing speeds.  I have good food, nice roads, safe streets and a myriad of other benefits from Uncle Sam. 

This shut down makes zero sense (cents?).

Perhaps a national strike would be our best response.  Let's stop all work until the overseers wake up. 

I'm curious,  whats stopping a strike from going ahead?

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1 hour ago, Bus Driver said:

So, using your logic, all the President has to do is through an expensive tantrum and we should give him what he wants.

come on Bus...that's more banal blather from one of the three stooges..........;-)    i just can;t figure out which one Jack is?  

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16 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Why? Someone’s gotta get burned in this Drumpf-ster fire you wished for.

He has a point you know. Can't cheer on the bitch burning but complain about it needing fuel. That's how the disasters you're happy to promote are supposed to work (in theory). People get burnt so badly they want to change things... 

...bur in practice, as long as there is a scapegoat, nothing does. People don't want to blame themselves or their team, so expect Trump to get blamed for everything and the GOP to stay exactly the same as it's been for decades. 

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4 hours ago, A guy in the Chesapeake said:
5 hours ago, jzk said:

Yes, clown boy, the people eating it care about eating good food.  That is why they will buy food from reputable places that have industry certifications etc.  No government priests necessary to bless your food for you.

you are being willfully obtuse

I'm not sure he is. I think whoever is behind the JZK character is really pretty dumb.  Every once in a while, they show a flash of humor, and often the stubborn exercise of stupidy is amusing in itself.

-DSK

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36 minutes ago, Ease the sheet. said:

I'm curious,  whats stopping a strike from going ahead?

The law.

The same law should prevent slavery but it isn't :rolleyes:

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1 hour ago, MidPack said:
2 hours ago, Raz'r said:

Oh, who cares about them?

Steam Flyer initiated the thought.

Please be accurate.

 

8 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

 

I also think it's heinous that politicians and political appointees are getting paid thru all this, whether they are working or not

 

 

-DSK

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59 minutes ago, dacapo said:

come on Bus...that's more banal blather from one of the three stooges..........;-)    i just can;t figure out which one Jack is?  

Well, Moe was the smart one so it's not him.

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6 hours ago, hasher said:

They work for us.  Have you had anyone work for you? Of course you have.  And you pay them.

I like going camping in National Parks.  I am always amazed by the orderliness and safety I experience with my family.  I am enthralled by this world of technology that will allow me to go anywhere I'd like at amazing speeds.  I have good food, nice roads, safe streets and a myriad of other benefits from Uncle Sam. 

This shut down makes zero sense (cents?).

Perhaps a national strike would be our best response.  Let's stop all work until the overseers wake up. 

That's not a bad idea. We get our yellow safety vests on and take to the streets. 

But I fear there are no martyrs among us. 

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26 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

Please be accurate.

 

 

-DSK

Where was I mistaken? You said something, I agreed and just pointed out it wouldn’t “hurt” the people you noted.

Touchy much?

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3 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

So, using your logic, all the President has to do is through an expensive tantrum and we should give him what he wants.

Although many feel that it's a waste of time and money that will have little effect in stemming the flow of poor people migration, there are a lot of people all for it. My point being don't think of it as what He wants, but what his constituents want. However misguided they may be. 

Representative Democracy you know. 

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5 minutes ago, Prof Anthrax said:

Although many feel that it's a waste of time and money that will have little effect in stemming the flow of poor people migration, there are a lot of people all for it. My point being don't think of it as what He wants, but what his constituents want. However misguided they may be. 

Representative Democracy you know. 

Sure but Speaker Pelosi has a constituency as well and it is appreciably larger than that of the guy who lost to Hillary by 3M.

image.png.85183049bdbb40a0350d051b3e28f7c9.png

Representative Democracy you know.

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2 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

Sure but Speaker Pelosi has a constituency as well and it is appreciably larger than that of the guy who lost to Hillary by 3M.

image.png.85183049bdbb40a0350d051b3e28f7c9.png

Representative Democracy you know.

That's the great part about it , it's never about the majority. Founding fathers kinda thing you know. 

Nancy represents a district in California. Her majority is extrapolated through the House Democrats. POTUS' minority represents the voters in all 50 states. 

Representative Democracy 

Damn those Founding fathers.

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No, Speaker Pelosi's majority is her House majority which represents 60M voters, somewhat more than Kevin McCarthy or Shitstain. The point of the Founders was a republican form of government which would neither enable a king (tyrant) nor would be a direct democracy (mob). It was meant to be inefficient and it has been. Speaker Pelosi owes nothing to either Shitstain nor to his plurality and she, to quote Pirates of the Caribbean, 'must' do nothing.

Damn those Founding Fathers.

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8 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

"The government" must be financially self-sustaining.

21 trillion in debt not to mention unfunded liability is self sustaining? :blink:

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1 hour ago, SloopJonB said:

Well, Moe was the smart one so it's not him.

i'm guessing the fat sloppy one

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3 hours ago, MidPack said:

Where was I mistaken? You said something, I agreed and just pointed out it wouldn’t “hurt” the people you noted.

Touchy much?

Sorry, I got the impression it had been turned around somewhere in translation

-DSK

 

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2 hours ago, Mickey Rat said:
11 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

"The government" must be financially self-sustaining.

21 trillion in debt not to mention unfunded liability is self sustaining? :blink:

It is for now. US gov't debt instruments are the most secure investment on the planet. Have been for a long time. When you look at interest rates, it seems that rather few people expect it to change in the near future.

The USA must stop borrowing money to pay for entitlement programs, but it would help a lot to stop pissing away money a lot of stuff we do. It reflects Americans habits of maxing out their credit cards, then transferring their balance.

-DSK

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54 minutes ago, Steam Flyer said:

The USA must stop borrowing money to pay for entitlement programs,

Military interventionism has its trade-offs. Maintaining 800 plus military bases in more than 70 countries and territories abroad is not cheap. Someone has to pay. 

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3 hours ago, Prof Anthrax said:

That's the great part about it , it's never about the majority. Founding fathers kinda thing you know. 

Nancy represents a district in California. Her majority is extrapolated through the House Democrats. POTUS' minority represents the voters in all 50 states. 

Representative Democracy 

Damn those Founding fathers.

The Democratic majority in the House also represents all 50 states, and the voting electorate chose the Democrats by about an 8 percent margin in the popular vote nationally.  That's the most recent election.

Representative democracy indeed.

THAT base is decidedly against wasting money on a wall.

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7 hours ago, Raz'r said:
13 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Actually I'm fairly outraged that they are making some federal workers work without pay.  I think its a travesty and if they are that essential that the country shuts down without them, then fucking pay them.  No pay, no work is my mindset.  It seems completely illegal to force them to work without pay.  I'm surprised this has not been challenged in court yet.  

Why? Someone’s gotta get burned in this Drumpf-ster fire you wished for.

You confuse, as usual, Raz'lets - what I think "should be" and "what is".  In a normal, healthy, functioning Representative Democracy - we wouldn't have shutdowns like these or any others where people are forced to work without pay or lose their jobs for good if they don't.  But knowing that we DO NOT have a normal, healthy, functioning Representative Democracy and have not for a while well prior to the ascendency of shitstain - I feel something drastic needs to happen to get us back on course.  If that means figuratively burning down some institutions to get there - then I want that to happen.  As I said in a recent other thread, the alternative IMHO is worse.  Doing nothing and continuing down this path will cause FAR more pain than some furloughed Federal workers missing some paychecks.  

And again, to be clear..... the "bitch" I most seek to burn down is the current GOP.  The more shit like this happens and the further the party goes down the road following Adolf Trump into the abyss - the harder they will burn once people wake up to the reality finally that the political institution called the GOP is diseased.  And the only way, IMHO, that people are going to wake up is for something truly drastic and radical to happen that exposes the corruption and the rotting flesh inside that has been masked all these years.  I'm fervently hoping trump is shown by Bob M to be a Russian agent or at the least to be controlled/blackmailed by Putin.  And shown with overwhelming evidents that even his most loyal backers can't deny it.  If the case ends up being a run of the mill perjury or corruption scandal - I don't think that will be enough to actually burn the bitch down properly.  There will be too much plausible deniability.  

To this end of getting real political change in a party that has lost its way, Cheeto has been a godsend.  Through his clumsiness and lack of filter - He is exposing all the issues that has been festering inside the party.  He's exposed Bitch McConnell for being the partisan hack he is.  He's exposed the evangelical right for being the hypocrites they are.  He's exposed all the other players who have unabashedly put party before country.  ONLY by burning that bitch down to the ground can we properly rebuild it or replace it and we can reclaim our values and our morals that we lost a while back.

My $.02

 

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And yet you still saw some sort of legitimacy to Kavenaugh. It’s hard to take you seriously. You type well though.

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17 minutes ago, Olsonist said:

And yet you still saw some sort of legitimacy to Kavenaugh. It’s hard to take you seriously. You type well though.

What was "illegitimate" about BK?  Are you disputing his qualifications as a jurist or his experience on the bench or his past opinions he has rendered???  

Oh, you mean the unproven allegations from 35 years ago in a he said/she said witch hunt orchestrated by the dems as a payback for Merrick Garland??  

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1 hour ago, Not guilty said:

And President Trump won the election because we are not playing water polo. America pickeded President Trump.

 

Pickeded? picketed?..yes they did, but as they still do...it's "America pickets President Trump".

You're welcome.

https://www.google.com/search?q=picketed+trump&rlz=1C1CHBD_en-gbAU714AU714&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjtspexr_nfAhVQWysKHUi4Dx0Q_AUIDygC&biw=1366&bih=626

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19 hours ago, Steam Flyer said:

I was going to say earlier, but am trying to avoid over-long pedantic posts: as a maneuver to shrink gov't I can see the idealogical appeal of the shut-down to some small-gov't conservatives. But it's dangerous and clumsy. It would be justice if those who think this is cool and fun and proves Trump's leadership had their families all go down with salmonella

You could probably use some Koch-$pon$ored propaganda.

On 1/13/2019 at 4:50 AM, dogballs Tom said:

let's have a look at what libertarians really think about government shutdowns.

Quote

To be clear: A temporary, unplanned shutdown of an undetermined length that probably won't save money is not what most libertarians have in mind when they talk about limited government.

 

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11 hours ago, Bus Driver said:

So, using your logic, all the President has to do is through an expensive tantrum and we should give him what he wants.

To be clear there are two tantrums in play. When you can agree with that statement ask me your question again.

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8 hours ago, Olsonist said:

Sure but Speaker Pelosi has a constituency as well and it is appreciably larger than that of the guy who lost to Hillary by 3M.

image.png.85183049bdbb40a0350d051b3e28f7c9.png

Representative Democracy you know.

Yes but the beauty of a constitutional republic structured as the founding fathers did, moderates the blanket ability of the 53% to tyrannize over the 45% even though in your demented world that 45% is subhuman and deserving of extinction. 

 

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1 minute ago, Not guilty said:

Oh you want to play grammar nazi , that is the first sign of a loss in a debate. STOP POSTING you ignorant cunt.

Trump is the President. 

Another fail.

"Oh you want to play grammar nazi. (FULL STOP, Capital T)That is the first sign of a loss in a debate. STOP POSTING you ignorant cunt.

Trump is the President."

You really are struggling with this grammar thing aren't you? :D 

 

 

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First —to be clear this shutdown shows how much a clusterfuck DC really is.  

 

Second- they are not working for free.   Nor are those not working unemployed.  All will receive full back pay.  What they are losing is the immediate use of funds.  So they are out the cost of borrowing any money they need.  Chase regularly sends me checks to write against my $0 balance credit card.  “Use our money for free 12 months no interest.” 3% transaction fee.  So an employee who nets $48k could get $10k interest free for $300.   That employee (assuming a decent credit rating) is out $300.   

That is reality.  If some of these employees have nothing but maxed out credit cards- that is unfortunate. But not THIS administration’s doing.  

 

 And—- for those living in California, they can make more money. The unemployment check they will receive  will more than cover the transaction fee.  

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Takes a special kind of idiot to say "No problem, just go get yourself into debt". Those supporting Trump's hissy fit are that special kind of idiot.

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1 minute ago, Bent Sailor said:

Takes a special kind of idiot to say "No problem, just go get yourself into debt". Those supporting Trump's hissy fit are that special kind of idiot.

Every time I take you off ignore.  Ya go back on!!!

 

You really are stupid.  I stated the shutdown is wrong. I neither supported Donnie or Nancy or Chuckie.

 I also stated that all the workers are out the transaction fee. That is because they will get FULL BACK PAY.  When that happens, they pay the principal.   They never go into debt or incur further costs- if they are in good financial shape. Do you still live in your moms  basement or do you pay your own bills??  

 

Never said or implied it was a good thing.    But those in California CAN make money if the unemployment checks really come in. 

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