WoobaGooba

Mega-yacht Sues Courageous Sailing Center for Youth?

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I think your title for this thread is off.  The Mega yacht isn't suing the Courageous Center; it's the other way 'round.  The Center has filed a complaint seeking a declaration that whatever happened, the limit of their liability is the value of their 420 that struck the megayacht.  The Center pegs that value at $1000.

And by the way, there was no "collision".  It was an "allision".  What I thought was a typo in the complaint turns out to be a nautical term I never heard before.

https://gcaptain.com/maritime-word-of-the-day-allision/

Whaddaya know?

I'd sure like to know what kind of damage was caused to the Ngoni.  It must be something serious enough to cause them to threaten a not-for-profit sufficiently to hire a lawyer.  Or maybe the allision just caused someone on the Ngoni to spill the Grey Poupon.

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13 minutes ago, Hukilau said:

I think your title for this thread is off.  The Mega yacht isn't suing the Courageous Center; it's the other way 'round.  The Center has filed a complaint seeking a declaration that whatever happened, the limit of their liability is the value of their 420 that struck the megayacht.  The Center pegs that value at $1000.

And by the way, there was no "collision".  It was an "allision".  What I thought was a typo in the complaint turns out to be a nautical term I never heard before.

https://gcaptain.com/maritime-word-of-the-day-allision/

Whaddaya know?

I'd sure like to know what kind of damage was caused to the Ngoni.  It must be something serious enough to cause them to threaten a not-for-profit sufficiently to hire a lawyer.  Or maybe the allision just caused someone on the Ngoni to spill the Grey Poupon.

I've done a lot of work for Insurance companies involving this type of claim.  I would bet that the millionaire is claiming reimbursement for re-painting the mega yacht and I'm not talking about local cutting and blending where the actual damage from the allision was.  Oh no. He'll insist on at least the whole side after trying to push for the entire yacht!   Just the cost of dry docking will close down the non-profit for good!  Then you've got to pay for scaffolding, laydays, and non-ones even fired up the sanders yet!!!!!

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3 hours ago, Hukilau said:

I think your title for this thread is off.  The Mega yacht isn't suing the Courageous Center; it's the other way 'round.  The Center has filed a complaint seeking a declaration that whatever happened, the limit of their liability is the value of their 420 that struck the megayacht.  The Center pegs that value at $1000.

 

Why would Courageous Sailing file for limit of liability if they were not being sued?

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What an asshole.

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5 hours ago, Hitchhiker said:

I've done a lot of work for Insurance companies involving this type of claim.  I would bet that the millionaire is claiming reimbursement for re-painting the mega yacht and I'm not talking about local cutting and blending where the actual damage from the allision was.  Oh no. He'll insist on at least the whole side after trying to push for the entire yacht!   Just the cost of dry docking will close down the non-profit for good!  Then you've got to pay for scaffolding, laydays, and non-ones even fired up the sanders yet!!!!!

One would assume the sailing center has liability insurance for the boats (or they would be complete morons) thus this will be an issue for their insurance company and not the sailing center

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People like that should not have boats - or not take them to places near anyone else. 

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10 hours ago, WoobaGooba said:

Why would Courageous Sailing file for limit of liability if they were not being sued?

Unclear to me, as I am not maritime lawyer.  And like I said, I'd sure like to know what the damage here is and what Ngomi wants.  But the complaint filed by the Sailing Center is not linked to any existing lawsuit (like if Ngomi had filed a suit against Courageous); it was filled on it's own as a separate matter.  If the Sailing Center had been sued, this would be a motion within that lawsuit, not a separate complaint on it's own.  At least, that's the way this lawyer sees it...

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14 hours ago, Hukilau said:

And by the way, there was no "collision".  It was an "allision".  What I thought was a typo in the complaint turns out to be a nautical term I never heard before.

https://gcaptain.com/maritime-word-of-the-day-allision/

Whaddaya know?

Makes me wonder who Al is and what he did to get a whole type of crash named after him?

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Courageous provides free sailing for the inner city youth of Boston.  It has introduced many thousands of kids to sailing over the decades. 

When the 12 meter Courageous finally retired after an illustrious America's cup career, the syndicate donated her to the fledgling sailing center and the city provided a disused pier during the redevelopment of the old Charleston Navy Yard.  The staff initially operated  out of Courageous equipment container.    They obtained a handful of Rhodes 19s and the Navy Yard developer generously provided a fleet of J22s (with a nudge from Boston's mayor....during the development approval process).  Then it was up to a handful of volunteers and a small dedicated staff to pound the pavements and raise enough money each year to run the kids program.   

I arrived in Boston in 1988, the year after its opened, signed up as a volunteer and spent many happy years sailing at Courageous and helping to raise money during corporate challenges.  I have friends that I made 30 years ago volunteering at Courageous that are still friends today, even though I live in  a different city. It has a special vibe about the place.    Courageous is all about getting kids out on the water.....some get a one time taste for it. Others acquire a passion for life. Almost all of them would never have stepped foot in a sail boat without Courageous.   Courageous does truly good work.

Most wealthy sailors who visit Boston, and learn about Courageous , want to write a check.  There is no better way to give back to the sport you love.

So along comes Tony Buckingham, who claims to have represented Great Britain in sailing....and Courageous is concerned he is about to sue them?????  I trust this is simply a communication error Tony and that you will soon be making a very public donation.

Ngoni seems like a beautiful boat and one would hate to see it become the subject of scorn and ridicule wherever it goes.

Hopefully Courageous overreacted here and Tony has no intention of suing the center. Maybe voices got raised between the boat captain and a member of the Courageous sailing staff? Something that can be fixed over a cold beer? Perhaps Tony could smooth things over by putting a dozen new 420s on the dock.  Hey he should go out sailing with some of the kids....its an unforgettable experience.

 

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18 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Courageous provides free sailing for the inner city youth of Boston.  It has introduced many thousands of kids to sailing over the decades. 

When the 12 meter Courageous finally retired after an illustrious America's cup career, the syndicate donated her to the fledgling sailing center and the city provided a disused pier during the redevelopment of the old Charleston Navy Yard.  The staff initially operated  out of Courageous equipment container.    They obtained a handful of Rhodes 19s and the Navy Yard developer generously provided a fleet of J22s (with a nudge from Boston's mayor....during the development approval process).  Then it was up to a handful of volunteers and a small dedicated staff to pound the pavements and raise enough money each year to run the kids program.   

I arrived in Boston in 1988, the year after its opened, signed up as a volunteer and spent many happy years sailing at Courageous and helping to raise money during corporate challenges.  I have friends that I made 30 years ago volunteering at Courageous that are still friends today, even though I live in  a different city. It has a special vibe about the place.    Courageous is all about getting kids out on the water.....some get a one time taste for it. Others acquire a passion for life. Almost all of them would never have stepped foot in a sail boat without Courageous.   Courageous does truly good work.

Most wealthy sailors who visit Boston, and learn about Courageous , want to write a check.  There is no better way to give back to the sport you love.

So along comes Tony Buckingham, who claims to have represented Great Britain in sailing....and Courageous is concerned he is about to sue them?????  I trust this is simply a communication error Tony and that you will soon be making a very public donation.

Ngoni seems like a beautiful boat and one would hate to see it become the subject of scorn and ridicule wherever it goes.

Hopefully Courageous overreacted here and Tony has no intention of suing the center. Maybe voices got raised between the boat captain and a member of the Courageous sailing staff? Something that can be fixed over a cold beer? Perhaps Tony could smooth things over by putting a dozen new 420s on the dock.  Hey he should go out sailing with some of the kids....its an unforgettable experience.

 

I’m going with the last part and hopefully this is just an over the top action taken by the sailing centres insurance company ........just in case of further legal ongoings. 

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it's the front page, fer chrissakes

can you spell "misleading"? how about "fake news"? 

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28 minutes ago, Parma said:

it's the front page, fer chrissakes

can you spell "misleading"? how about "fake news"? 

Click bait!! and if it wasn’t for people posting about it, most of us would never know about it. 

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4 hours ago, mad said:

I’m going with the last part and hopefully this is just an over the top action taken by the sailing centres insurance company ........just in case of further legal ongoings. 

I highly doubt this action would be filed without a demand letter from Ngoni.  

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7 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Courageous provides free sailing for the inner city youth of Boston.  It has introduced many thousands of kids to sailing over the decades. 

When the 12 meter Courageous finally retired after an illustrious America's cup career, the syndicate donated her to the fledgling sailing center and the city provided a disused pier during the redevelopment of the old Charleston Navy Yard.  The staff initially operated  out of Courageous equipment container.    They obtained a handful of Rhodes 19s and the Navy Yard developer generously provided a fleet of J22s (with a nudge from Boston's mayor....during the development approval process).  Then it was up to a handful of volunteers and a small dedicated staff to pound the pavements and raise enough money each year to run the kids program.   

I arrived in Boston in 1988, the year after its opened, signed up as a volunteer and spent many happy years sailing at Courageous and helping to raise money during corporate challenges.  I have friends that I made 30 years ago volunteering at Courageous that are still friends today, even though I live in  a different city. It has a special vibe about the place.    Courageous is all about getting kids out on the water.....some get a one time taste for it. Others acquire a passion for life. Almost all of them would never have stepped foot in a sail boat without Courageous.   Courageous does truly good work.

Most wealthy sailors who visit Boston, and learn about Courageous , want to write a check.  There is no better way to give back to the sport you love.

So along comes Tony Buckingham, who claims to have represented Great Britain in sailing....and Courageous is concerned he is about to sue them?????  I trust this is simply a communication error Tony and that you will soon be making a very public donation.

Ngoni seems like a beautiful boat and one would hate to see it become the subject of scorn and ridicule wherever it goes.

Hopefully Courageous overreacted here and Tony has no intention of suing the center. Maybe voices got raised between the boat captain and a member of the Courageous sailing staff? Something that can be fixed over a cold beer? Perhaps Tony could smooth things over by putting a dozen new 420s on the dock.  Hey he should go out sailing with some of the kids....its an unforgettable experience.

 

i'll second that wish for a resolution that involves getting a new donor on board...

it's a very good program for boston's kids, in a really cool spot (right next to Old Ironsides)....

the staff are all dedicated sailors, and the volunteers are doing it for the right reasons..and its all done on a shoestring budget

i've sailed there many times, and its easy to imagine some young sailor putting a boat in the wrong place...its happened to all of us..

if this incident ends up compromising this program it would be a damn shame..

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3 hours ago, eastern motors said:

I highly doubt this action would be filed without a demand letter from Ngoni.  

Agree.

If there’s a written notice of claim (which need not be a lawsuit, a claim notice or letter will suffice) the Limitation petition must be filed within 6 months of such notice.  So yeah, Limitation can be filed as a preventative measure even if (Nigoni) hadn’t yet filed a lawsuit.   And if they do, it will be a “claim” in that limitation proceeding, rather than a separate lawsuit.

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8 hours ago, mad said:

I’m going with the last part and hopefully this is just an over the top action taken by the sailing centres insurance company ........just in case of further legal ongoings. 

Most of all, I'm just trying not to draw "red lines" and escalate a tense situation. I would like to leave Tony a way out without losing face, that maybe could benefit underprivileged kids in Boston.

So rather than lay into him, I'm suggesting he just go for a sail with the kids or watch them get off the school bus and go off for their program. It would warm the coldest of hearts.....and if you have any genuine passion for sailing, then its hard not to like what they do.

My personal experience is that I was a newly arrived Brit in Boston 30 years ago. I was a young guy jonesing to go sailing in the harbor. I went down to the Navy Yard to sign up as an adult member so that I could take out a Laser and sign up for the Wednesday evening series in the J22s.  The sailing director (I think it was Ben Block back then) cleverly timed one of my visits to overlap with the end of the day time youth programs. I was blown away by these happy kids scrambling around boats, with no idea what they were doing but eager as hell...and Ben persuaded me to volunteer to give a racing clinic. One clinic turned into a dozen. Now the trade off was they still owned Courageous back then and I got the opportunity to helm Courageous going full pelt down Boston Harbor. That was really something! 

So a couple of years later when I had some good fortune in my professional life, the first charitable check I wrote in my life was to Courageous. I felt really good about it. As a donor you get bang for your buck because the staff run the program on a shoe string and every dime gets used effectively for kids to sail for free. Its a damn good cause.

I havent been back to the Navy Yard in 10 years. I  miss Boston , it was a great city to live in. The harbor is at the center of living in Boston; and part of the scene on Boston harbor for the last 30 years has been  seeing dozens of kids buzzing around in sailboats. Beantown without Courageous would be a poorer place.

 

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Little known fact......in fact a totally unknown fact (because there was an NDA) .....is that Paul McCartney has sailed at Courageous. He was a surprisingly good Laser sailor and buzzed around the harbor  quite happily for over an hour with no press and nobody bothering a guy jest having fun in a sail boat. Then he hauled his boat back on the dock, went off for a shower and Im told played a great set later that evening.

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4 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Most of all, I'm just trying not to draw "red lines" and escalate a tense situation. I would like to leave Tony a way out without losing face, that maybe could benefit underprivileged kids in Boston.

So rather than lay into him, I'm suggesting he just go for a sail with the kids or watch them get off the school bus and go off for their program. It would warm the coldest of hearts.....and if you have any genuine passion for sailing, then its hard not to like what they do.

My personal experience is that I was a newly arrived Brit in Boston 30 years ago. I was a young guy jonesing to go sailing in the harbor. I went down to the Navy Yard to sign up as an adult member so that I could take out a Laser and sign up for the Wednesday evening series in the J22s.  The sailing director (I think it was Ben Block back then) cleverly timed one of my visits to overlap with the end of the day time youth programs. I was blown away by these happy kids scrambling around boats, with no idea what they were doing but eager as hell...and Ben persuaded me to volunteer to give a racing clinic. One clinic turned into a dozen. Now the trade off was they still owned Courageous back then and I got the opportunity to helm Courageous going full pelt down Boston Harbor. That was really something! 

So a couple of years later when I had some good fortune in my professional life, the first charitable check I wrote in my life was to Courageous. I felt really good about it. As a donor you get bang for your buck because the staff run the program on a shoe string and every dime gets used effectively for kids to sail for free. Its a damn good cause.

I havent been back to the Navy Yard in 10 years. I  miss Boston , it was a great city to live in. The harbor is at the center of living in Boston; and part of the scene on Boston harbor for the last 30 years has been  seeing dozens of kids buzzing around in sailboats. Beantown without Courageous would be a poorer place.

 

Exactly this, I don’t believe this has any hand of the owner involved. It’s not his style, I’ve had the pleasure to meet him and  some his regular crew over the years. 

This sounds very badly mishandled on both sides. 

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48 minutes ago, Tanton Y_M said:

A prick for a boat.

20180623_110740_001_resized (1).jpg

A 420 (which is apparently the "allisioner" in question) running into that 190' boat would have a hard time making a mark in the bootstripe. (Which doesn't look perfect in the above photo anyway.) What actually happened to bring this up at all?  

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22 minutes ago, PaulK said:

 

A 420 (which is apparently the "allisioner" in question) running into that 190' boat would have a hard time making a mark in the bootstripe. (Which doesn't look perfect in the above photo anyway.) What actually happened to bring this up at all?  

Click bait from the Ed. 

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Pretty sure if you hit another boat, even if other boat is stationary, it's still a collision.

Allisioning is reserved for permanently fixed objects like rocks, bridges, piers, Pence's thoughts on the gays... Sorry been hanging around PA too much lately

 

And the reason they filed suit is the US Limitation of Liabilities Act. In US Maritime Law you can limit the liability of the injured party to the value of your boat, including pleasure craft. It's not obscure to maritime lawyers.

It's really old, odd law. Say a crewmember is killed on an oil tank barge in an explosion. The owner can limit their liability to the value of the barge, which might be much less than a wrongful death suit on land.

"A vessel owner [in this case the sailing center], pursuant to the Limitation Act, is entitled to limit its liability after a maritime incident or casualty to the post casualty value of the vessel [the $1000 420 dinghy] and the pending freight, except when the loss occurred due to its "privity or knowledge." 46 U.S.C. App. §183(a). In other words, privity or knowledge will be found to exist where the acts of negligence or unseaworthiness that caused the casualty were known or should have been know by the vessel owner.

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2 hours ago, mad said:

Exactly this, I don’t believe this has any hand of the owner involved. It’s not his style, I’ve had the pleasure to meet him and  some his regular crew over the years. 

This sounds very badly mishandled on both sides. 

Don't think he is personaly involved either, if there even is a case at all.

But to say it's not his style, that I don't buy. This guy is red fucking hot: 

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Tony_Buckingham

And yes indeed, it must have been a pleasure to meet him. I quote: Socially he has a reputation as a bon viveur. "You could not get a more engaging lunch companion," said one acquaintance.

"He's also a former mercenary provider who hates being  called a mercenary"

 

 

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Boat captains do this kind of stuff, not the owners.

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5 hours ago, Fiji Bitter said:

Don't think he is personaly involved either, if there even is a case at all.

But to say it's not his style, that I don't buy. This guy is red fucking hot: 

https://wikispooks.com/wiki/Tony_Buckingham

And yes indeed, it must have been a pleasure to meet him. I quote: Socially he has a reputation as a bon viveur. "You could not get a more engaging lunch companion," said one acquaintance.

"He's also a former mercenary provider who hates being  called a mercenary"

 

 

Have a search on some other owners, you might just find they have similar, alluded to backgrounds. 

 

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So TLDR; version is:

420 and Ngoni collide.

Ngoni - probably with paid captain aboard and with the aid of their insurance company - make a claim or start the process of making a claim against the 420 for the scratch in their paint. Even a 10 minute touchup job with a spray can will cost a ton of money if you have to haul a 190 foot boat out to do it.

Courageous Sailing starts the legal process to limit the liability to the value of the 420.

Do I have this right?

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Good one.

If that's the bow in question then restoring it to prior could easily be a $50,000 bill unless they used a buffable paint.

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24 minutes ago, mad said:

So in the interior pics, The Gym, (Heavy Bag, Seriously??? ) what is the contraption on the left side, with wires and what looks like 2 sets of massive clamps on top and bottom??  I see a foot pedal too..  

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Harry McDonough heard about this he woulda fixed the whole mess in no time.

Southie Legend.

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7 minutes ago, See Level said:

Here's the issue

"Ngoni’s hull sports a bespoke metallic topcoat that the owner’s team calls "Claire de Lune," applied using an electrostatic coating technique that uses charged particles to bond the paint to the surface"

https://www.yachtsinternational.com/yachts/launched-58m-project-398-ngoni

Fully understand the hardship of the PBL.

Therefore, if the $1000 does not cover the buffing out, I suggest we start a Gofund page for the ex Mercenary. 

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Until now I couldn't conceive how this accident could happen.  We have club dinghies sail in waters with stationary yachts all summer long, year after year, and nothing has ever happened.

Now it makes sense, given the opportunity, I would hit that thing with a club 420 too.

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26 minutes ago, See Level said:

Here's the issue

"Ngoni’s hull sports a bespoke metallic topcoat that the owner’s team calls "Claire de Lune," applied using an electrostatic coating technique that uses charged particles to bond the paint to the surface"

https://www.yachtsinternational.com/yachts/launched-58m-project-398-ngoni

Claire De Lune is a classical instrumental not a paint colour. It is widely known & is the song used at the end of oceans twelve?? when they finish the job & state out at the fountain in Vegas. 

Wankers

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https://caughtinsouthie.com/features/sailing-ocean-blue-harry-mcdonough-sailing-center/

Apologies for the thread drift here.   I learned to sail in Southie.  Met Harry and knocked around in an old Laser on Pleasure Bay until I got sorted out and then trained out on the Old Harbor.  Launched off the beach next to South Boston YC.

Harry was a character.   Among many in that scene around his little club on the Bay.   Was a cool little scene back in the day.  

Courageous came into the picture and then the Navy Yard became the focal point of activities.  Would see Harry around Pleasure Bay and still give him a shout and get a big smile.  Cool Daddy.

 

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9 hours ago, Teener said:

Until now I couldn't conceive how this accident could happen.  We have club dinghies sail in waters with stationary yachts all summer long, year after year, and nothing has ever happened.

Now it makes sense, given the opportunity, I would hit that thing with a club 420 too.

An old Hobie 16 maybe. Two bows...

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On 1/25/2019 at 5:50 PM, Hitchhiker said:

I've done a lot of work for Insurance companies involving this type of claim.  I would bet that the millionaire is claiming reimbursement for re-painting the mega yacht and I'm not talking about local cutting and blending where the actual damage from the allision was.  Oh no. He'll insist on at least the whole side after trying to push for the entire yacht!   Just the cost of dry docking will close down the non-profit for good!  Then you've got to pay for scaffolding, laydays, and non-ones even fired up the sanders yet!!!!!

Wow. It seems you are correct.

Boston gossip (no claim for accuracy)

Insurance companies involved (no surprise). 

They want the whole side painted  (a very prescient guess by Hitch, but cummon a bump from a 420?). 

My feeling is that if you choose to paint your boat with a  "bespoke metallic topcoat that you call "Claire de Lune," applied using an electrostatic coating technique" , you bear some responsibility for that. It is a boat and boats bump into stuff. 

I don't buy the argument that this is all down to the Boat Captain. If (as Boat Captain) you are proposing to make a large insurance claim from or sue a kids sailing program...that is something that you tell your boss about before you push the red button. The reputational issues are too important.

But note: Ngoni has not sued anyone yet and so there is still hope that Tony can sort this out as a gentleman.

 

 

 

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On 1/25/2019 at 9:07 PM, SloopJonB said:

What an asshole.

 

On 1/26/2019 at 7:43 AM, PaulK said:

People like that should not have boats - or not take them to places near anyone else. 

A highly-maneuverable dinghy hits a stationary yacht, causing some sort of damage (as Hukilau has twice pointed out, we don't know its extent) ...  and somehow the innocent mega yacht owner is an entitled asshole? That's essentially the same argument as this scenario:

 

On 1/26/2019 at 8:44 AM, Mambo Kings said:

Courageous provides free sailing for the inner city youth of Boston. It has introduced many thousands of kids to sailing over the decades.... Almost all of them would never have stepped foot in a sail boat without Courageous. Courageous does truly good work....

So along comes Tony Buckingham, who claims to have represented Great Britain in sailing....and Courageous is concerned he is about to sue them?????  I trust this is simply a communication error Tony and that you will soon be making a very public donation.... Perhaps Tony could smooth things over by putting a dozen new 420s on the dock.

No doubt it's a great institution. We need, and should support, community groups that get people sailing who wouldn't otherwise have that opportunity. I fully support that worthy goal.

However, no public interest mission is a licence to negligently damage other people's property. Presumably the Center has third party liability insurance in place (if not, it has no business operating, especially when it is serving young people).

Let the legal process play out. There is no reason to rubbish the yacht owner, or to imply that he has some sort of overriding moral duty because (i) a charity was responsible for the poor seamanship, and (ii) he's a non-American rich guy.

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I would think if I were the hired skipper of a boat with a 6 figure paint job, I would call the insurance company about 20 seconds after someone hit me to make sure it was on record it was not my fault and I did everything possible to look after the owner's interest in his boat that needs million dollar repairs if anyone touches it :rolleyes:

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Damn, you all are making me homesick for Boston.  Community Boating, racing at BU, and the roughneck kids from Southie who got to sail and race courtesy of Harry McDonough, who would buy up and fix up 110s and other sailing craft.  Many of these sailors went on to Northeastern, and raced around New England.  A wonderful legacy.

"Allision" an admiralty term is typically used by the stationary or anchored boat (or dock) that "got hit".  

Using the Limitation Act defensively as may be the case here, is just being cautious.  I hope this turns out to be a teapot tempest.

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6 minutes ago, Svanen said:

 

 

So: a highly-maneuverable dinghy hits a stationary yacht, causing some sort of damage (as Hukilau has repeatedly pointed out, we don't know its extent) ...  and somehow the innocent mega yacht owner is a jerk? That's essentially the same argument as this scenario:

 

No doubt it's a great institution. We need, and should support, community sailing groups that get people sailing who wouldn't otherwise have that opportunity. I fully support that worthy goal.

However, no public interest mission is a licence to negligently damage other people's property. Presumably the Center has third party liability insurance in place (if not, it has no business operating, especially when it is serving young people).

Let the legal process play out. There is no reason to rubbish the yacht owner, or to imply that he has some sort of overriding moral duty because (i) a charity was responsible for the poor seamanship, and (ii) he's a non-American rich guy.

All true.........but shit happens and if the paint job is THAT expensive and THAT fragile and THAT hard to fix, maybe it would be cost effective to hire some guy in a RIB to guard the boat 24/7.

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An ultra-expensive paint job has zero appeal to me.

I fully agree that "shit happens": as human beings, we all make mistakes. Usually this occurs without expensive consequences, but sometimes with. That's why liability insurance exists.

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5 minutes ago, Svanen said:

An ultra-expensive paint job has zero appeal to me.

I fully agree that "shit happens": as human beings, we all make mistakes. Usually this occurs without expensive consequences, but sometimes with. That's why liability insurance exists.

True, but I bet we are looking at close to or over 7 figures. I doubt their 420 insurance has anywhere near those limits.  If you paint one whole side, a few years down the road the boat will be two different colors so you really need the whole thing done :rolleyes:

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I have no knowledge of what the Center's actual policy limits are; but given that it is involved with sailing instruction, it would be well-advised to have at least $1 million coverage in place. A serious accident may eventually occur, resulting in personal injury or wrongful death litigation.

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I have it on pretty good authority that Ngoni's owner has been pretty... let's say forceful about this from day 1, when he flew in his personal yacht surveyor. It's a real shame it's gotten to this point. 

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Put some posters up in Southie advertising free drinks for the best graffiti job on the boat. That'll teach him, maybe next time he will electrostatic his ass instead :lol:

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53 minutes ago, ryley said:

I have it on pretty good authority that Ngoni's owner has been pretty... let's say forceful about this from day 1, when he flew in his personal yacht surveyor. It's a real shame it's gotten to this point. 

I suppose it would be rather upsetting, learning that your super-pricey pride and joy had been banged up. I don't blame him for wanting to assess the damage and repair it properly. Of course, there would be no reason to be obnoxiously personal or self-righteous about it (if that is indeed what's happened) ... turn things over to the insurer and the lawyers, and get on with life.

A side comment:

While I appreciate nice things as much as the next person, I see little appeal in possessing easily-damaged works of art. :unsure: One of my wife's nephews owns a fancy sportscar: or should I say, it owns him? He's paranoid about protecting it at all times, to the point where it seems he is reluctant to drive it.

A few years ago, I was offered the chance to purchase a beautiful wooden sailing yacht at an extremely attractive price (the owner had terminal cancer). It was less than ten years old and in perfect condition: quite simply the best-looking boat that I had ever seen, or am likely to see. But I did not buy it, because I knew that I would be unable to maintain it to that same ultra-high standard.

 

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Here's a link to an article which in turn has a link to the Limitation petition:

http://www.boatinglaw.com/maritimearticles/courageous420limitation.html

The scrape happened last July, so the petition was filed a week ago, just before the 6-month limit in which to do so would have expired.    Nothing earth-shaking, it's a standard format, describing 7-10 knot wind and difficulty maneuvering because of shifting winds (I guess).   Now Ngoni interests will be invited to file a claim in that limitation action.  Then you can see what amount they claim.  

Courageous has previously filed a limitation a few years ago regarding a personal injury in their fleet.

Tom Muzyka, their attorney, is an old hand at admiralty law, he'll know what to do to protect Courageous Sailing.

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2 hours ago, Svanen said:

 

 

A  dinghy hits a stationary yacht, causing some sort of damage (as Hukilau has twice pointed out, we don't know its extent) ...  and somehow the innocent mega yacht owner is an entitled asshole? That's essentially the same argument as this scenario:

However, no public interest mission is a licence to negligently damage other people's property. Presumably the Center has third party liability insurance in place (if not, it has no business operating, especially when it is serving young people).

Let the legal process play out. There is no reason to rubbish the yacht owner, or to imply that he has some sort of overriding moral duty because (i) a charity was responsible for the poor seamanship, and (ii) he's a non-American rich guy.

S, 

So far nobody has suggested that negligence was involved.

As you point out, we have do not have independent evidence of the damage.  All we have to go on is the information in front of us which consists of

(i) A 420 with a displacement of 230 lbs hit a stationary 190 foot yacht with a displacement of 397 tons.

(ii) Winds were 7-10 knots and shifty.

(iii) The impact was described as a "low speed allision"

(iv) The damage was described as "minor damage and scratches"

There has been a suggestion that the owner is claiming that he wants the whole 190+ feet side of the boat repainted. We dont know if that is true.

Nobody (at least not this commentator) is calling the owner an arsehole . Based on the limited knowledge we have in front of us,  an audience of experienced sailors is making an educated guess that the damage was indeed minor.  Based on that educated guess, one hopes that the owner is not asking for his entire boat to be repainted by a charity or its insurance company.  The charity, which does a lot for youth and sailing, has a savvy lawyer who has sought to limit the maximum claim to $1,000.

The best outcome would be:

1)  The boat captain learns that in US waters, damage claims can be limited to a reasonable value dependent on the value of the smaller vessel. Thus if you are in charge of a vessel worth millions of dollars with a sensitive paint job, there is an onus on the captain on taking precautions to protect that fragile asset.  If you put Faberge painted eggs in the overhead locker you cant blame the pilot for a bad landing.

2) The owner, Tony, gets a $1,000 from the insurance company and then contemplates a worthy donation to Courageous.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

S, 

So far nobody has suggested that negligence was involved.

As you point out, we have do not have independent evidence of the damage.  All we have to go on is the information in front of us which consists of

(i) A 420 with a displacement of 230 lbs hit a stationary 190 foot yacht with a displacement of 397 tons.

(ii) Winds were 7-10 knots and shifty.

(iii) The impact was described as a "low speed allision"

(iv) The damage was described as "minor damage and scratches"

There has been a suggestion that the owner is claiming that he wants the whole 190+ feet side of the boat repainted. We dont know if that is true.

Nobody (at least not this commentator) is calling the owner an arsehole . Based on the limited knowledge we have in front of us,  an audience of experienced sailors is making an educated guess that the damage was indeed minor.  Based on that educated guess, one hopes that the owner is not asking for his entire boat to be repainted by a charity or its insurance company.  The charity, which does a lot for youth and sailing, has a savvy lawyer who has sought to limit the maximum claim to $1,000.

The best outcome would be:

1)  The boat captain learns that in US waters, damage claims can be limited to a reasonable value dependent on the value of the smaller vessel. Thus if you are in charge of a vessel worth millions of dollars with a sensitive paint job, there is an onus on the captain on taking precautions to protect that fragile asset.  If you put Faberge painted eggs in the overhead locker you cant blame the pilot for a bad landing.

2) The owner, Tony, gets a $1,000 from the insurance company and then contemplates a worthy donation to Courageous.

 

 

 

 

Or donate a 420 with a big soft rubrail.   Might start a trend??  ;-)

I too don't rush to see bad motives here without knowing more. 

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Hello Mambo,

The owner has been called an asshole on this thread, although no, not by you.

Perhaps he is one! I know nothing about him. But his character should not suffer adversely by the mere fact that he (understandably) wants his damaged property restored to its pre-accident condition.

I read the pleading: thank you nolatom for providing the link. Negligence is expressly denied (para. 11) but I don't see that flying, do you? The Center's lawyer relies on an act of God defence ("the 420's navigation and maneuvering was impaired by wind shifts"), but in the absence of unusual circumstances - none pleaded - it was pretty clearly poor seamanship and prima facie negligent for the dinghy to come close enough to the yacht for an allusion to have resulted.

I don't blame the Center, its lawyer, or its insurer for trying to limit liability or otherwise affirmatively defending a potential claim; anymore than I blame the owner or his insurer for trying to hold the Center fully responsible.

The Act may well apply and the owner's insurer will have to accept the fact that its subrogation rights are severely restricted. But in such circumstances, it seems slightly naive to expect the owner to make any sort of voluntary payment to the Center. Why should he? Sure, it's a good cause, but there is no shortage of those. For all we know, he already donates to Jubilee Sailing Trust, VISA-GB, the RYA, etc.: none of whom have "caused minor damage and scratches" to his pristine yacht and then tried to hide behind limitation legislation (which as I have said the Center is perfectly entitled to do, but is unlikely to endear it to him).

Best, Svanen

 

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Lessons I learned on this subject tied up at SSA in Annapolis:

Cast boom end fittings do a great job at scratching the topsides.

Generally the larger boat creates a wind hole and or gusty conditions the kid in the 420 does not understand. 

Kids who are good sailors feel the need to show off and sail as close as possible to the large yachts, even when the instructor constantly yells at them not to get close.

The wind hole next to a yacht will always cause the 420 to unwittingly gybe and the boom end to hit the hull.

Metallic paint can not successfully be touched up. You have to paint the whole side for a decent finish.

The coating on Ngoni has a very hard finish to reduce topside damage.

This hardened paint finish is no match for a 420 boom end fitting.

 

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15 minutes ago, Soley said:

Lessons I learned on this subject tied up at SSA in Annapolis:

Cast boom end fittings do a great job at scratching the topsides.

Generally the larger boat creates a wind hole and or gusty conditions the kid in the 420 does not understand. 

Kids who are good sailors feel the need to show off and sail as close as possible to the large yachts, even when the instructor constantly yells at them not to get close.

The wind hole next to a yacht will always cause the 420 to unwittingly gybe and the boom end to hit the hull.

Metallic paint can not successfully be touched up. You have to paint the whole side for a decent finish.

The coating on Ngoni has a very hard finish to reduce topside damage.

This hardened paint finish is no match for a 420 boom end fitting.

 

So it was YOU that scratched my boat?!?!  :o

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

So it was YOU that scratched my boat?!?!  :o

I was on the boat that was scratched....put that pointed finger back in its holster!

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Typically the guys buy the hype: hardest finish, best DOI, best UV protection etc. When everyone would be better off with a softer paint that is patchable, but the customer is always right, and the salesman knows best.

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5 hours ago, Svanen said:

While I appreciate nice things as much as the next person, I see little appeal in possessing easily-damaged works of art. :unsure: One of my wife's nephews owns a fancy sportscar: or should I say, it owns him? He's paranoid about protecting it at all times, to the point where it seems he is reluctant to drive it.

There was an arsehole around here who owned a gorgeous red Ferrari. I say arsehole because he used to park it straddling the white dividing line and taking 2 spots to keep people from getting too close.

One day there wasn't much parking so I parked my beat-up rusty old utility maybe 25mm off of his driver side door. Then I took some pix to show there was no damage to either vehicle.

What could he do about it after all? Call the cops or parking police? That'd work well....

Anyway I've learned a new word from this thread - allision. Thanks for that.

FKT

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who finishes a boat with a coating that cannot be touched up when the inevitable "minor scratch" happens...??

are we to believe that every time the boat is scratched, it needs to be hauled, and the entire side completely refinished?

that kind of stupidity does not need to be rewarded...

 

 

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10 hours ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Anyway I've learned a new word from this thread - allision. Thanks for that.

I still want to know who Al is and what he did.

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5 hours ago, WoobaGooba said:

Where was Ngomi parked when the scratch got attached?

 

 

Capture.JPG

can you spot the us navy's oldest vessel in that photo?

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Playing devil's advocate;

Surely the skipper of Ngoni would have simply informed his insurers of the issue and then they would have taken over the matter. This is between two insurers, not an owner and a charity anymore. But if someone bumped your car in a car park and you saw that it was a charity owned vehicle, would you just wave them off with a smile after handing over a donation , or would you ask for their insurance details?

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Playing devil's advocate;

Surely the skipper of Ngoni would have simply informed his insurers of the issue and then they would have taken over the matter. This is between two insurers, not an owner and a charity anymore. But if someone bumped your car in a car park and you saw that it was a charity owned vehicle, would you just wave them off with a smile after handing over a donation , or would you ask for their insurance details?

This is more like you park your $500,000 perfectly restored AC Cobra on the road in front of your house and a kid on a tricycle crashes into it. The parents are sorry and are perfectly willing to pony up a few hundred bucks to touch up a scratch. They are in for a surprise as to the cost of concourse-worthy aluminum body work and paint :o

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2 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Playing devil's advocate;

Surely the skipper of Ngoni would have simply informed his insurers of the issue and then they would have taken over the matter. This is between two insurers, not an owner and a charity anymore. But if someone bumped your car in a car park and you saw that it was a charity owned vehicle, would you just wave them off with a smile after handing over a donation , or would you ask for their insurance details?

Using the car example, the scratch is 9" long.   And there is other pre-existing cosmetic damage from door dings etc.  How does that play out with the insurance companies? 

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8 hours ago, WoobaGooba said:

Where was Ngomi parked when the scratch got attached?

 

 

Capture.JPG

I'm pretty sure it was docked on an outer dock at Charlestown Marina in the top of your pic. Tough to imagine a 420 did that much damage to a boat like that. I could understand being pissed, but given the owner's means of fixing it, and that it was done by a kid sailing at a place like Courageous, hopefully he'll show some mercy. If it was a douchenozzle in a Sea Ray, well different story. 

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9 hours ago, WoobaGooba said:

Where was Ngomi parked when the scratch got attached?

 

 

Capture.JPG

 

ngoni.jpg

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2 hours ago, WoobaGooba said:

Using the car example, the scratch is 9" long.   And there is other pre-existing cosmetic damage from door dings etc.  How does that play out with the insurance companies? 

I have had this go both ways. A neighbor hit my car in the door. His insurance company wanted to do a bondo and respray. I said HELL NO,  my car is all original metal. You are buying me a new door skin and painting the whole door. They argued the car was old anyway and not in pristine condition. I argued that was not a factor, your insured hit my car and I want it back how it was before it got hit and don't forget a rental car! Got him up from $350 to $1800 :D

My boat got hit at the dock and put a nice scratch in the paint and wrecked the satphone antenna. Insurance paid for the $$$ satphone repair but would not pay for the scratch. They said the paint was beat up anyway and the boat could have used a paint job before it got hit :(

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New product name idea:

"Limitation Act Paint"---

So rare and beautiful it will trigger a Limitation Act complaint if you even look at it...  ;-)

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

 

ngoni.jpg

I remember when Ngoni was there - my wife and I drove over and took a look at it (the mast was very prominently visible from far away - we noticed it on the approach to the Sumner Tunnel.  The drawing above is correct for all intents and purposes - I think it was at the southern end of the outer T dock (closer to Constellation Wharf), but this is a pretty accurate representation.

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it pretty much took up the entire dock but you're right it was a little further SW. It was an impressive beast from the water, although someone on my crew had seen it out in P'town prior to coming to Boston. it was apparently having a rough time trying to anchor in ptown harbor with the submarine anchor arrangement on board. I think the only time I saw anyone aboard was when North came down to put the sails back on.

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13 hours ago, Chimp too said:

Playing devil's advocate;

Surely the skipper of Ngoni would have simply informed his insurers of the issue and then they would have taken over the matter. This is between two insurers, not an owner and a charity anymore. But if someone bumped your car in a car park and you saw that it was a charity owned vehicle, would you just wave them off with a smile after handing over a donation , or would you ask for their insurance details?

Easy one.

I used to moor about 100 yards from floats holding the club's 410s.

In the summer classes were in the morning and in the afternoon.

Some nights they taught adults.

 

Have come aboard many a time for find scratches or a ding in the awlgrip.  The original Awlgrip you cannot buff out like AG 2000.

Shrugged it off hoping they learned something.

If you believe in the sport, you let some things slide....

Who the fuck is going to notice a scratch in the paint near the waterline if that vessel is so special?

What petty wanker is going to point it out on such a magnificent machine?

Who is going to talk the price down of such a fine machine if everything else is fine?   Especially when you retort ? "It was tapped by a 6 year old learning to sail"

 

 

I wonder if this owner has ever taken the kids from Courageous out for  a sail on his boat?

Pile up good karma points and have a blast as the kids are in awe of his wicked cool sailboat.

Nothing I look forward to volunteer for more than taking half a dozen 6-10 year olds out for sail at the end of their week of sailing classes on a "big boat".
Just happy I was blessed to be able to afford a boat so I could take the out to experience sailing.

 

Hoping the owner does the right thing...

 

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On 1/28/2019 at 3:09 PM, Soley said:

I was on the boat that was scratched....put that pointed finger back in its holster!

If I recall from another thread, Soley knows that about which he speaks, because he is or was a professional boat captain on some very high end boats.

Some suggest that the skipper might have lodged the insurance claim vs Courageous without any involvement from the owner. I would have thought that kind of final decision would be kicked upstairs for approval. Soley would have an opinion on that. 

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2 hours ago, Plausible said:

the right thing for him is to step in front of a bus.........

pot..... kettle.

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On 1/28/2019 at 1:33 AM, See Level said:

Here's the issue

"Ngoni’s hull sports a bespoke metallic topcoat that the owner’s team calls "Claire de Lune," applied using an electrostatic coating technique that uses charged particles to bond the paint to the surface"

https://www.yachtsinternational.com/yachts/launched-58m-project-398-ngoni

That’s one hell of an expensive maintenance program to buy!!! 

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28 minutes ago, mad said:

That’s one hell of an expensive maintenance program to buy!!! 

Especially because it looks exactly like my car, which is also a metallic grey/silver finish. I don't even like the color, but for some reason 95% of all cars made that year were grey-silver variants.

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On 1/29/2019 at 3:01 AM, yikes said:

who finishes a boat with a coating that cannot be touched up when the inevitable "minor scratch" happens...??

are we to believe that every time the boat is scratched, it needs to be hauled, and the entire side completely refinished?

that kind of stupidity does not need to be rewarded...

 

 

There’s a certain validity to that comment, however many superyachts and smaller are painted with certain finishes, regardless of the paint system that will require large scale repairs if scratched. Such as perlescent and metallic finishes. 

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42 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Especially because it looks exactly like my car, which is also a metallic grey/silver finish. I don't even like the color, but for some reason 95% of all cars made that year were grey-silver variants.

Did your new car door match the rest of the car? I’d be surprised if it did and even more so in a year or twos time. 

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I think if you have a boat as expensive as that, you have a moral obligation to make the world a better place, because you are in a position to do so.  Otherwise, you're a loser.

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3 hours ago, mad said:

There’s a certain validity to that comment, however many superyachts and smaller are painted with certain finishes, regardless of the paint system that will require large scale repairs if scratched. Such as perlescent and metallic finishes. 

yeah, i hear you....

 

back to my point, why would you do that knowing that minor scratches are part of using the boat.....the insurance costs must be exorbitant...

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3 hours ago, mookiesurfs said:

I think if you have a boat as expensive as that, you have a moral obligation to make the world a better place, because you are in a position to do so.  Otherwise, you're a loser.

Effective altruists would say that if you can afford to own a fourth-hand Sunfish, you have a moral obligation to deprive yourself of such frivolous recreational pleasure and give all your surplus cash to benefit the less fortunate.

They would also strongly assert that the Courageous Sailing Center is not a cost-effective charity and that all its donors have a moral obligation to immediately cease such funding and instead ship their money off to a higher priority cause, such as provision of clean water in Burkina Faso. 

17881993.jpg

 

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