onepointfivethumbs

C&C 30 implosion?

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Looking at exactly zero entries for Charleston Race Week, two hulls at Big Boat Series and one entry for BIRW, what happened to the C&C 30? I thought it was a cool little "mini-TP52" and everyone I talked to who sailed them loved the boat. Anybody "in-the-know" know what happened?

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I don't know what happened. May be lack of class leadership?  

That said, when it came out I for one did not get it. Another O/D boat in what seemed like a crowded size range.  Then I got a chance to sail on one and I got it.  It is a great multi purpose racer and truly a mini TP 52.  I for one would not mind getting one for buoy racing and point to point events in SoCal.

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People have probably been scared off by the offset companionway.

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do you think it was the nail in the coffin that winning sail magazine's boat of the year award is?

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5 minutes ago, basketcase said:

do you think it was the nail in the coffin that winning sail magazine's boat of the year award is?

The nail will be when new boat builders do not allow Magazine's with the curse of Sail aboard their new boat. Until then the curse continues. 

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Maybe they're all in California, looking to surf to HNL.

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$300,000 for a 30' campaign with limited venues is pretty large stretch for about 99.99% of us regular hacks.  Hell, 1/10 that for a J24 or so campaign is out of reach of about 90% of us, but at least that $30K would buy you two regattas anywhere in the US on any given weekend.

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I'm sure there's another thread around here for this.  But when a class has owners who have support tenders that cost more than the boat they are racing, said class is fucked.

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14 minutes ago, Swimsailor said:

I'm sure there's another thread around here for this.  But when a class has owners who have support tenders that cost more than the boat they are racing, said class is fucked.

Just curious which owner had/has this?

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34 minutes ago, Peacefrog said:

 

Just curious which owner had/has this?

eXtreme 2 I believe. 

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43 minutes ago, Gorn FRANTIC!! said:

eXtreme 2 I believe. 

He doesnt have a C&C 30 any longer.  He bought an M32 catamaran.  And while Dan did have a big Rib, etc he was the one that was keeping the class going. It shouldnt be a surprise that the OD nature of the class imploded right after he sold his boat.

MS

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From what I heard the class organisation has been poor, and maybe too many similar boats all launched at the same time as well as the Melges 32 still going strong? Farr 280 also a flop, J88 stealing some sales possibly, MC31, Xtreme 32 etc.

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C&C going tits up again may have something to do with it.

When the 30 came out I posted at the time it was likely a doomed effort. There is a fixed pool of owners interested in this kind of racing at that expense level. Pretty much a zero-sum game, for any new class to thrive one old class must die.

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10 hours ago, Mr. Squirrel said:

He doesnt have a C&C 30 any longer.  He bought an M32 catamaran.  And while Dan did have a big Rib, etc he was the one that was keeping the class going. It shouldnt be a surprise that the OD nature of the class imploded right after he sold his boat.

MS

So the guy keeping the class together is spending $500k on his program?  Yeah, fucked.

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7 hours ago, JL92S said:

Melges 32 still going strong?

Lol, sure.

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C&C 30 is expensive to campaign and the fleet is all pros. That being said its a sweet boat that rips 

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7 minutes ago, pudge said:

The true demise was at inception with the non-retractable bowsprit. 

I beg to differ, If anything, a non-retractable bowsprit would be more appealing. The bowsprit could be removed. I don't know how easy or hard this process is.

Look at the Farr 400. It has a retractable bowsprit and look how well it went over. 

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3 minutes ago, RATM said:

I beg to differ, If anything, a non-retractable bowsprit would be more appealing. The bowsprit could be removed. I don't know how easy or hard this process is.

Look at the Farr 400. It has a retractable bowsprit and look how well it went over. 

probably right, it was merely a tongue-in-cheek response anyways. 

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Wow I so love SA and the total lack of "talkoutyourassness" that happens here :) So much misinfo here it is stunning.

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9 minutes ago, Peacefrog said:

Wow I so love SA and the total lack of "talkoutyourassness" that happens here :) So much misinfo here it is stunning.

it's almost as bad as CNN

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2 hours ago, Peacefrog said:

Wow I so love SA and the total lack of "talkoutyourassness" that happens here :) So much misinfo here it is stunning.

Please fact check us.  

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2 hours ago, Peacefrog said:

Wow I so love SA and the total lack of "talkoutyourassness" that happens here :) So much misinfo here it is stunning.

Some things never change.

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6 hours ago, Peacefrog said:

Wow I so love SA and the total lack of "talkoutyourassness" that happens here :) So much misinfo here it is stunning.

Tac, just because people aren’t talking doesn’t mean we don’t know. But for what it’s worth, your boat is one of the good ones. Guys buying two boats for A and B training teams on the other hand. That was ridiculous. 

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This is where sailing needs to have its NASCAR moment. At one point, NASCAR was about the Saturday wrench guy who raced that night, and went to work Monday. 

That's how sailing used to be before the pros were 'officially' allowed (yes, I came of age in IOR with all of the 'wink wink' stuff). Now that a 30 footer costs what a house in Nashville does, no wonder that only those who can afford a $1,500,0000 'starter' home in SF can afford a boat to be competitive.

Start an "amateur league" and a "pro league" (how long will that last?) or take it back to Corinthian roots.

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When used Melgi 32 are so cheaply available, whats the point?

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9 hours ago, Borax Johnson said:

This is where sailing needs to have its NASCAR moment. At one point, NASCAR was about the Saturday wrench guy who raced that night, and went to work Monday. 

That's how sailing used to be before the pros were 'officially' allowed (yes, I came of age in IOR with all of the 'wink wink' stuff). Now that a 30 footer costs what a house in Nashville does, no wonder that only those who can afford a $1,500,0000 'starter' home in SF can afford a boat to be competitive.

Start an "amateur league" and a "pro league" (how long will that last?) or take it back to Corinthian roots.

if you want to go sail some overweight, under powered, and under performing shitter - there are plenty of IOR boats floating around for you to pick up for cheap. Go make it happen. Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying to buy a half mil dol boat.. (that said i really do have a soft spot for the ton boats and some of the IMS designs) 

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1 hour ago, mustang__1 said:

if you want to go sail some overweight, under powered, and under performing shitter - there are plenty of IOR boats floating around for you to pick up for cheap. Go make it happen. Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying to buy a half mil dol boat.. (that said i really do have a soft spot for the ton boats and some of the IMS designs) 

That's because you never sailed on them. Right at the edge of the rule, IOR and IMS boats sucked to sail on. Wire sheets on IOR maxi, only do that once. IMS 500 boats you only want to broach once on those, feels like its never coming upright again!

Although it was sad to see Waterline go under and the C&C30 class fall away, it does however mean that people with average money get to rip around in these things in PHRF.

Comme ci comme ça.

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2 hours ago, mustang__1 said:

if you want to go sail some overweight, under powered, and under performing shitter - there are plenty of IOR boats floating around for you to pick up for cheap. Go make it happen. Nobody is holding a gun to your head saying to buy a half mil dol boat.. (that said i really do have a soft spot for the ton boats and some of the IMS designs) 

I love the experience of a 60nm straight shot race that is dead upwind in 20+kts and the looks of longing from everyone on anything that approaches a sport boat as they see us blow past them while eating hot food on the weather rail of our overweight, under powered and underperforming shitter....that is if they didn't bail at the first sight of the conditions.  

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Cool boats.  Lots of tweaky stuff.  42 ft boat shoved into a 30 footer.  Expensive and difficult to campaign when you have to pay pros to be competitive.  Really fun to sail though.  I can find negatives why the class died but I think it just came down to lack of boats and willingness to travel all over the place to exotic locations to race 6 boats.

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9 minutes ago, Cal20sailor said:

I love the experience of a 60nm straight shot race that is dead upwind in 20+kts and the looks of longing from everyone on anything that approaches a sport boat as they see us blow past them while eating hot food on the weather rail of our overweight, under powered and underperforming shitter....that is if they didn't bail at the first sight of the conditions.  

^^^^^ This

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1 hour ago, jackolantern said:

I found this to be an interesting datapoint that came out of people going to the Waterline auction a couple years ago:

PQFIYrb.jpg

9UsPA5R.jpg

 

There's going to be a little difference between hull #1 and subsequent boats once they figure out the tooling and the laminate schedule, but two whole pounds of difference in a carbon blade? Gonna be difficult to keep changing the corrector weight setup when boats come out so inconsistently.

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2 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

There's going to be a little difference between hull #1 and subsequent boats once they figure out the tooling and the laminate schedule, but two whole pounds of difference in a carbon blade? Gonna be difficult to keep changing the corrector weight setup when boats come out so inconsistently.

More to the point, it doesn't instill a load of confidence when production "records", especially those critical to ensuring OD compliance, are written on scrap cardboard. Really, nobody there had a laptop and Excel? SMH.

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Wow so much unnecessary anger and just mis information. 

First of all the boat had great momentum for the initial onset with 27 (I believe) boats built in roughly 14-18 months. The class looked like it was going to continue to grow but right when things really were getting good a few "technicalities" in the rules that were presented to the owners arose. The biggest one being if the boat was sold as a owner driver class or a Cat 1 driver class (It seems as the initial draft of rules were presented in a way that would assure the would be owners so the builder could make the sale). For most this wasn't a huge deal but did effect a few key people that were surrounding the class and helping it grow. Some great angst, finger pointing and typical mud slinging ensued and just as things were getting good with 16 boats on the line and multiple regattas with 10 or more boats the numbers started to dwindle for a bunch of different reasons and eventually collapsed..... I have be heard the class is getting some much deserved rebirth . 

For those that say the boat is overweight, under canvased and under performing I remember saying the same thing and wondering why someone would choose this boat the first day I walked into US watercraft. I was there to check over the build for a new client of mine and honestly wondered "why not just get a Melges 32". Funny thing as time went on I personally grew to love the boat and what it is and most importantly what it can do. Sure as it turns out it just's like most of us and it could loose a little bit of weight (my guess would be about #200 or 4% of total OD weight ) but I would argue that it has plenty of sail area and if sailed properly plenty quick unlike its human counter part.

And of course the age old Extreme 2 killed the class with all the pro's, that huge tender, and outspending everyone by at least double......Ughhh...oh almost forgot they cant win all that stuff with out cheating duh

Ok I am out of practice on this one so bear with me. (Funny thing you don't have to defend anything when you aren't winning ha) Yes Extreme 2 had a nice tender, a 25 foot protector that cost about 50% of the out the door price of the C&C 30. Well everyone must have been pro's then?.....Nope Just 2. David Shriner and Mark Mendleblatt being there for 90% of the racing.....Thats all??? Yup that's all but of course they also had a very dedicated bunch of Cat1's that happened to be very skilled at sailing....Yeah but they all got paid right????.... Nope but they also didnt have to spend anything and had the chance to sail with a team (family) that was just as dedicated to the cause as they were......So how did they spend all that money??....turns out they didnt and weren't even the highest spenders in the class (but they did have fancy crew gear, and did do all the events)......Ok so that boat must have been more juiced up than Lance Armstrong then....Sorry to disappoint but that boat was measured triple the amount of times than any other boat in the class and NEVER had a issue. 

Well shit how did they win so much and kill the class????

Honestly it was a just a case of really good timing, great people, and a true group effort on the part of Extreme 2 

A few of the key factors 1) Dan Cheresh was the best driver in the class, Even before that boat Dan managed to win something like 14 national championships (including Mumm 30, and back to back in the 1D35"s) 2) Remember when it was written above that the team did all the events???? Yeah thats the doubled edge sword of doing a bunch of events to promote the class as time in the boat always makes you get better 3) Great people....I have never been a part of any sailing team that had truly bonded more as a family and had each others back and really got into the trenches to work for a common goal 4) timing....A few of these great people that were cat 1's worked their asses off and are successful Cat 3's since they aged out Or in the case of a few others they once were sailmakers (meaning the actual people that make the sails not sales) in their  (very) distant youth (a few also managed to win a world championship on the way as well)

How do I know all of this useless shit? I ran the sailing team for Dan and still do and was there from the early days of walking into the factory to check out the newly assembled boat. I also am proud to say I did a fair bit of helping make the sails, tuning, and the way the boats are sailed what they are today. 

I personally love the little boat and have often said the C&C 30 is like that dog that shows up on your doorstep one cold night. At first you be grudgingly let them inside "only this once" and give them something to eat, and over time the relationship grows from the dog that steals your steak off your plate and sits on your new couch, to you sharing your steak, and making room for them, to even that dog saving your ass a few times and watching out for you. Eventually you come to the realization that as it turns out thats the best Damn dog a man could ever ask for!

So why this boat instead the Melges 32...Well after all the abuse we dished out to Extreme 2 crashing just about every way imaginable to racing in a "typical" down wind Mac race that had us going upwind in 20+ for 25 hrs (where over a 100 boats retired or broke) I dont think we would have a melges 32 left so who really cares if the 32 gets on the step at 12knots instead of 13 when you can do so much more with the boats.

I know its pretty easy to see but I really do think the 30 is a great boat that can do so much more than the typical 30 odd foot OD race boat can and is happy to do so.

 

       

   

 

 

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That is the funny thing about the Extreme2 argument...no one seems to remember that Dan has been around the block more than a few times and developing and running a successful program is something he has been doing for, oh, a few decades. No doubt, the man does it right. 

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 I will return to my original premise - this venture was fighting over a very limited pool of sailors that can afford to haul a 30 foot boat around the country. This is close to a zero-sum game and some class has to die for another one to live in this rarefied climate.

 

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I agree Kent - compared to the 1D35 it was an easier prospect,  but....it's still a pretty serious proposition to campaign something like that !!

 

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13 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

It just struck me the original C&C sold around 800 C&C 30s. Is anyone ever going to hit those numbers again?

 

Not for a boat with furniture. The J70 is probably going to be the last class that sells 1,000 boats fairly quickly.

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There are 700ish J/105s in the world, right?

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2 hours ago, Alex W said:

There are 700ish J/105s in the world, right?

Last US built boat was 685, I think, but the class association refers to 638 total hulls.

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