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genealex

Even smaller spectator numbers for olympic sailing

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Since  the 2020 Paralympic games dropped the sailing entirely,  you wonder if this is the gradual push to remove sailing from the games..

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2 hours ago, The Q said:

Since  the 2020 Paralympic games dropped the sailing entirely,  you wonder if this is the gradual push to remove sailing from the games..

Few things would benefit our sport more.

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2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

In other news, no one cares. 

Did you get that from The Onion?

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On 1/31/2019 at 6:33 AM, Svanen said:

Few things would benefit our sport more.

Meaningless comment.

There are plenty of things that could benefit our sport. Being dropped from the Olympics is NOT one of them.

Those of us in the front line of promoting sailing, trying to run regattas and raise sponsorship know the value of the Olympics. Although they are fun to watch, the reality is that the trickle down from events like the Americas Cup etc do not really help us organize or run local regattas. The Olympics creates an aspiration for the really talented youth sailors to remain in small boat sailing.  It allows us to show sponsors that we are relate to an Olympic sport that the sponsor recognizes. Although no fan of World sailing, they provide rules and  they are (thankfully) primarily funded through IOC.

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27 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Meaningless comment.

There are plenty of things that could benefit our sport. Being dropped from the Olympics is NOT one of them.

Those of us in the front line of promoting sailing, trying to run regattas and raise sponsorship know the value of the Olympics. Although they are fun to watch, the reality is that the trickle down from events like the Americas Cup etc do not really help us organize or run local regattas. The Olympics creates an aspiration for the really talented youth sailors to remain in small boat sailing.  It allows us to show sponsors that we are relate to an Olympic sport that the sponsor recognizes. Although no fan of World sailing, they provide rules and  they are (thankfully) primarily funded through IOC.

Walk into just about any club in America and ask people at the bar to name the Olympic classes, and recent medal winners. The response is always underwhelming. 

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10 minutes ago, sunseeker said:

Walk into just about any club in America and ask people at the bar to name the Olympic classes, and recent medal winners. The response is always underwhelming. 

If you walk into any yacht club where they still race small sail boats rather than provide a dining service for the power squadron......and you ask the people who volunteer to run the junior sailing program, organize race committee, raise sponsorship for the regional regatta, promote team racing, call around the fleet on Thursday evening to make sure everyone gets to the line on saturday morning ......ask them if it would help them if sailing was dropped from Olympics!

Yeah I'm sure that old Joe and his drinking buddies slumped in the chairs by the bar couldnt give a damn .

You are right, I don't know the names of the recent Olympic medal winners....I really dont.......but if a member of the US Olympic team attends a youth regatta to spend an hour talking about sailing, it is standing room only.  When I call the local car dealer to ask for a little support for an upcoming regatta, I can remind them that our future Olympians are made right here.   

Americans still dig a gold medal.  We had a guy from the 1980 US Olympic hockey squad passing through on business and I was introduced to him at the bar, I was honored to meet him.I admire dedication and sporting success. If Paul Foerster (3 Olympic medals in sailing!!) walked into our yacht club bar, we would line up to shake him by the hand.  

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Sailboat racing any kind makes for irrelevant, awkward, boring viewing for the majority of the population. It’s difficult to manage logistically - far from shore, need for sea room, etc. - hard to create a visceral sense of engagement or drama for the average viewer,  and low viewership numbers. For the people to whom media is a business, it’s a low payoff, ho-hum proposition.

Just think of that scene from ‘The Office’ where Andy is watching a regatta and everyone else is completely lost...

Its like watching a chess match with wind. 

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4 hours ago, Peanut Butter said:

Sailboat racing any kind makes for irrelevant, awkward, boring viewing for the majority of the population. It’s difficult to manage logistically - far from shore, need for sea room, etc. - hard to create a visceral sense of engagement or drama for the average viewer,  and low viewership numbers. For the people to whom media is a business, it’s a low payoff, ho-hum proposition.

Just think of that scene from ‘The Office’ where Andy is watching a regatta and everyone else is completely lost...

Its like watching a chess match with wind. 

But its the Olympics! Every strange geek sport like synchronised swimming, sabre fencing, or hop-step-and-jump gets its 15 minutes in the Olympics! Of course it is irrelevant, awkward, and boring - but that's exactly the point!

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Hey man, I geek out at all the esoteric stuff - summer and winter - too. Even the equestrian events and pole vaulting. 

But shit like that doesn’t pay the bills and the fact that fewer cities are lining up to host these circuses because there’s no way to make their money back is proof that the death spiral has begun.

Besides, newer generation find no relevance in these things. My guess is the olympics will soon be replaced by giant video gaming competitions...

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6 hours ago, IPLore said:

Those of us in the front line of promoting sailing, trying to run regattas and raise sponsorship know the value of the Olympics....

Ask the people who volunteer to run the junior sailing program, organize race committee, raise sponsorship for the regional regatta, promote team racing, call around the fleet on Thursday evening to make sure everyone gets to the line on Saturday morning ......ask them if it would help them if sailing was dropped from Olympics!

You're perfectly entitled to your opinion; but please spare me the sanctimonious nonsense about being on "the front line" and purporting to speak for other people. 

I've done quite enough race management, jury and committee work to be entitled my own opinion. Although it's obviously different from yours, that doesn't automatically make it a minority viewpoint, let alone a wrongheaded one.

7 hours ago, IPLore said:

It allows us to show sponsors that we are relate to an Olympic sport that the sponsor recognizes.

Some of us believe that sponsorship is a terrible thing for sailing.

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3 hours ago, Svanen said:

'I've done quite enough race management, jury and committee work to be entitled my own opinion.

Some of us believe that sponsorship is a terrible thing for sailing.

 

On 1/31/2019 at 6:33 AM, Svanen said:

Few things would benefit our sport more.

I dont want to join the shit slinging above. You are entitled to your opinion. But count me curious as to why

1) Why you believe the sponsorship we get at regattas is a terrible thing for sailing.  Schweppes were generous sponsors of our World Champs in Perth.  It allowed the regatta participants to have a fantastic party at the Freemantle Maritime Museum halfway through the regatta and it helped keep regatta entry fees reasonable so that anyone fro WA could afford to participate. Aspen Insurance, the Bermuda Tourist Board and Goslings sponsored our 2016 Worlds in Bermuda.  The sponsors included $1,000 towards transportation costs for every competitor. Honestly I cant see what is so terrible about that. And until you have had Goslings rum punch served out of a top loading washing machine, you havent lived

2) Also why you think being dropped from the Olympics will increase participation and the quality of sailing.  I will admit I may be a bit biased. Ever since I was a kid I loved the Olympic spectacle and watching it on TV. When I finally had a bit of coin, I went as a spectator to the Atlanta Olympics and got a kick out of that. I also went to London and Weymouth in 2012 and really enjoyed it. I think the UK hosted a great Olympics. 

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Sailing gets almost no airtime in North America (partially because of the NBC monopoly and the gushing over the hot swimmers and the cute gymnastics girls) since it's a niche market. I don't know what the case is in Europe or Oceania. 

The problem is with WS, not the IOC. WS has positioned themselves as the sole arbiter of the future of the sport, the wishes of the sailors be damned. When that happens to help fill the coffers of WS Execs, more the better as far as they care. They view it as "aqua-NASCAR", thus the big push for foiling and skiffs and anything with a high "crash n' burn" potential. If they can get the average viewer to watch even a few minutes of it, they can sell ad space, and they can make money.

What really drives me up the wall is boiling the sport down to the lowest common denominator. You CANNOT explain the RRS, a starting sequence, tacks and gybes, and the differences in boats in a 20-something minute Medal Race. It's too complicated, and it loses viewer interest. People love watching swimming and track because it's obvious- that guy crossed the line first, so he wins the medal.

So many great human interest stories get lost in just trying to get the average (dull) American up to speed with what the hell is going on. Santi Lange losing a lung to cancer and then winning Gold. Caleb living out of a truck for years to pay for his campaign. Paige Railey flipping over the handlebars of her bike and breaking her spine. Giles playing second fiddle to Ainslie and finally getting his shot.

The simplest answer is don't bother. There are great sailing announcers and people within the sport who can advocate for keeping sailing for sailors, spectators and media rights be damned.

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17 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Walk into just about any club in America and ask people at the bar to name the Olympic classes, and recent medal winners. The response is always underwhelming. 

America is not the entire world. 

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31 minutes ago, Curious said:

America is not the entire world. 

And just because a small fraction of the world cares about Olympic sailing, the entirety of the sport is supposed to be burdened with the rules and regulations that serve a couple of thousand people in an effort to be paid from Olympic sailing? Fine, have all your Olympic bullshit, just leave the rest of us out of it.

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Exactly which rules and regulations do you find to be burdensome to the sport?

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30 minutes ago, dogwatch said:

Exactly which rules and regulations do you find to be burdensome to the sport?

It’s not so much the right of way racing rules as it is the regulations and all sorts of other schemes that default to power/control by WS without any real sort of checks and balances by recreational racing sailors. The way rule 69 is now written is just an invitation to abuse, witness the filing against Witt in the Volvo. That’s just one example. There’s way too much that is imposed on the rest of the sport just because of the Olympics.

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I don't much like how RRS 69 was rewritten either. However that followed appeals against cases in AC34. Not due to the Olympics. 

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The value of an Olympic medal varies from country to country and from sport to sport. In most cases the value of Olympic medal is greatly overrated.

Consider this season of the most prestigious motocross championship class hotly contested by a strong international field

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIM_Motocross_World_Championship

MXGP[edit]

Round Date Grand Prix Location Race 1 Winner Race 2 Winner Round Winner Report
1 4 March 23px-Flag_of_Argentina.svg.png Argentina Neuquen Italy Tony Cairoli Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
2 18 March 23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands Valkenswaard Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
3 25 March 23px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png Spain Redsand Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Report
4 8 April 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy Pietramurata Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
5 15 April 23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal Agueda Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
6 1 May 23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia Orlyonok Belgium Clément Desalle Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Belgium Clément Desalle Report
7 13 May 23px-Flag_of_Latvia.svg.png Latvia Ķegums Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
8 20 May 23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany Teutschenthal Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
9 3 June 23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png Great Britain Matterley Basin Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
10 10 June 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France St Jean d'Angely Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
11 17 June 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy Ottobiano Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Report
12 1 July 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png Indonesia Pangkal Pinang Italy Tony Cairoli Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
13 8 July 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png Indonesia Semarang Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
14 22 July 23px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png Czech Republic Loket Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
15 5 August 23px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png Belgium Lommel Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
16 19 August 16px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png  Switzerland Frauenfeld Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
17 26 August 23px-Flag_of_Bulgaria.svg.png Bulgaria Sevlievo Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
18 2 September 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey Afyon Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
19 16 September 23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands Assen Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
20 30 September 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy Imola Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report

one might say that one Jeffrey Herlings has had a nice season. After 3 MX2 worldchampionships and 4 runner ups he took the crown in a convincing manner

On the other hand a speed skater that has failed to qualify for the the Olympics in 2010 and 2014 but managed to snatch gold on the 1000 and 1500 meters on the 2018 winter Olympics. Speed skating is popular in the Netherlands and Norway, some Germans, Russians and Koreans compete as well.

guess who won the title of Dutch sportsman of year.

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10 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

I dont want to join the shit slinging above.

There has been no shit slinging, just a difference of opinion.

I have nothing against IPLore, and AFAIK he has no vendetta against me. 

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2 hours ago, sunseeker said:

It’s not so much the right of way racing rules as it is the regulations and all sorts of other schemes that default to power/control by WS without any real sort of checks and balances by recreational racing sailors. The way rule 69 is now written is just an invitation to abuse, witness the filing against Witt in the Volvo. That’s just one example. There’s way too much that is imposed on the rest of the sport just because of the Olympics.

Would it be churlish of me to point out that I am not aware of one instance of rule 69 being used in the Olympics.  

It is designed to address gross misconduct in the sport and most/all of that exists outside of the Olympic regattas every 4 years.  Sadly , there are cheats and a tiny minority of people who are abusive on the race course or parking lot and the sport needs a way of addressing it.  Rule 69 needs revision but that is down to us and our representative body, not the Olympics. IMO. 

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4 minutes ago, Svanen said:

There has been no shit slinging, just a difference of opinion.

I have nothing against IPLore, and AFAIK he has no vendetta against me. 

Sorry...that came out wrong.  I enjoy the commentaries from both IPL and Svanen. Please accept my apologies.

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3 hours ago, genealex said:

The value of an Olympic medal varies from country to country and from sport to sport. In most cases the value of Olympic medal is greatly overrated.

Consider this season of the most prestigious motocross championship class hotly contested by a strong international field

Source:  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2018_FIM_Motocross_World_Championship

MXGP[edit]

Round Date Grand Prix Location Race 1 Winner Race 2 Winner Round Winner Report
1 4 March 23px-Flag_of_Argentina.svg.png Argentina Neuquen Italy Tony Cairoli Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
2 18 March 23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands Valkenswaard Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
3 25 March 23px-Flag_of_Spain.svg.png Spain Redsand Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Report
4 8 April 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy Pietramurata Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
5 15 April 23px-Flag_of_Portugal.svg.png Portugal Agueda Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
6 1 May 23px-Flag_of_Russia.svg.png Russia Orlyonok Belgium Clément Desalle Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Belgium Clément Desalle Report
7 13 May 23px-Flag_of_Latvia.svg.png Latvia Ķegums Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
8 20 May 23px-Flag_of_Germany.svg.png Germany Teutschenthal Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
9 3 June 23px-Flag_of_the_United_Kingdom.svg.png Great Britain Matterley Basin Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
10 10 June 23px-Flag_of_France.svg.png France St Jean d'Angely Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
11 17 June 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy Ottobiano Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Italy Tony Cairoli Report
12 1 July 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png Indonesia Pangkal Pinang Italy Tony Cairoli Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
13 8 July 23px-Flag_of_Indonesia.svg.png Indonesia Semarang Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
14 22 July 23px-Flag_of_the_Czech_Republic.svg.png Czech Republic Loket Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
15 5 August 23px-Flag_of_Belgium_%28civil%29.svg.png Belgium Lommel Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
16 19 August 16px-Flag_of_Switzerland.svg.png  Switzerland Frauenfeld Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
17 26 August 23px-Flag_of_Bulgaria.svg.png Bulgaria Sevlievo Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
18 2 September 23px-Flag_of_Turkey.svg.png Turkey Afyon Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
19 16 September 23px-Flag_of_the_Netherlands.svg.png Netherlands Assen Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report
20 30 September 23px-Flag_of_Italy.svg.png Italy Imola Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Netherlands Jeffrey Herlings Report

one might say that one Jeffrey Herlings has had a nice season. After 3 MX2 worldchampionships and 4 runner ups he took the crown in a convincing manner

On the other hand a speed skater that has failed to qualify for the the Olympics in 2010 and 2014 but managed to snatch gold on the 1000 and 1500 meters on the 2018 winter Olympics. Speed skating is popular in the Netherlands and Norway, some Germans, Russians and Koreans compete as well.

guess who won the title of Dutch sportsman of year.

So in the eyes of Dutch journalists an Olympic medal is something of note.   That and finishing 5th in the Formula One World Championship B)

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1 hour ago, Mambo Kings said:

Would it be churlish of me to point out that I am not aware of one instance of rule 69 being used in the Olympics.  

It is designed to address gross misconduct in the sport and most/all of that exists outside of the Olympic regattas every 4 years.  Sadly , there are cheats and a tiny minority of people who are abusive on the race course or parking lot and the sport needs a way of addressing it.  Rule 69 needs revision but that is down to us and our representative body, not the Olympics. IMO. 

Uh....well....there was this little incident where Ainslie got out of his Finn, swam over to a photoboat and got in the face of the driver, with no real consequences.

Iker Martinez and his NACRA modifications come to mind as the most recent example of sweeping the behavior of Olympic heros under the rug.

Neither incident happened in the Olympics, but they are Olympians sailing in Olympic class regattas.

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6 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

Would it be churlish of me to point out that I am not aware of one instance of rule 69 being used in the Olympics.  

It is designed to address gross misconduct in the sport and most/all of that exists outside of the Olympic regattas every 4 years.  Sadly , there are cheats and a tiny minority of people who are abusive on the race course or parking lot and the sport needs a way of addressing it.  Rule 69 needs revision but that is down to us and our representative body, not the Olympics. IMO. 

 

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20 hours ago, sunseeker said:

Uh....well....there was this little incident where Ainslie got out of his Finn, swam over to a photoboat and got in the face of the driver, with no real consequences.

Iker Martinez and his NACRA modifications come to mind as the most recent example of sweeping the behavior of Olympic heros under the rug.

Neither incident happened in the Olympics, but they are Olympians sailing in Olympic class regattas.

Proving you can’t please all the people all of the time. Some think 69 is overly harsh. Some think it is too lax.

My personal view, entirely personal mind you .....on both of those incidents.

 

1. The Ainslie incident. The press boat was irresponsible and in the wrong place for an important regatta. Ainslie lost his temper . He should not have. But he proved he was human like so many of the rest of us. He deserved a reprimand/ warning.   I personally believe it was only elevated to rule 69 because it was Ben Ainslie.  I have seen sailors lose their temper in the heat of the moment....and then get a chance to apologize. In one incident, a sailor got so mad with a press boat that he grabbed the shirt of the journalist ripped the buttons off the shirt and threw him to the ground. Charleston Race Week....I know other anarchists were there.  It was again an overreaction and inappropriate but it didn’t bring the sport into disrepute. The sailor apologized for overreacting. The journalist apologized for affecting the race . The skipper bought a round of drinks and offered to buy a new shirt which the journalist declined .  Ainslie has to go though a rule 69 process to deliver his apology and he lost the results of an important regatta. But he is famous and held to a higher standard. I certainly agree that there should not have been further action. 

 

2.  Iker Martinez is purported to have cheated. If he did, then in my mind that is wholly different matter. It is a gross breach of sportsmanship. It brings the sport into disrepute and if he cheated he should not be allowed near an Olympic race course ever again and should be banned from racing for a period of time.   There is no place for deliberate dishonesty in our sport. 

But I would want a rule to penalize dishonesty and cheating and gross misconduct even without the Olympics and as you point out, these were not the Olympics, they were sailors who were also Olympians. 

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Imagine a major soccer game where there is just a grass field 3 cameras and two goals. It would not work! But sailing is just like that. 

I mean the build tribunes so that people can watch. It's not that hard to hire boats or build platforms so that a possible audience can watch directly on the water. 

Olympic sailing is lost between the chairs. Big boat sailors don't care, mass audience don't care, as far as I can see there is not a real community for dinghy racing (maybe with the exception of sailing anarchy) 

As a youth I have competed in many different sports. As I switched to sailing I expected some kind of a warm welcome in the sail racing community. Competing now since 5 years I can count the number of supporters on one hand and the rocks that have been thrown in front of me feet build up a solid mountain only few would dare to climb. 

 

 

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34 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Proving you can’t please all the people all of the time. Some think 69 is overly harsh. Some think it is too lax.

My personal view, entirely personal mind you .....on both of those incidents.

 

1. The Ainslie incident. The press boat was irresponsible and in the wrong place for an important regatta. Ainslie lost his temper . He should not have. But he proved he was human like so many of the rest of us. He deserved a reprimand/ warning.   I personally believe it was only elevated to rule 69 because it was Ben Ainslie.  I have seen sailors lose their temper in the heat of the moment....and then get a chance to apologize. In one incident, a sailor got so mad with a press boat that he grabbed the shirt of the journalist ripped the buttons off the shirt and threw him to the ground. Charleston Race Week....I know other anarchists were there.  It was again an overreaction and inappropriate but it didn’t bring the sport into disrepute. The sailor apologized for overreacting. The journalist apologized for affecting the race . The skipper bought a round of drinks and offered to buy a new shirt which the journalist declined .  Ainslie has to go though a rule 69 process to deliver his apology and he lost the results of an important regatta. But he is famous and held to a higher standard. I certainly agree that there should not have been further action. 

 

2.  Iker Martinez is purported to have cheated. If he did, then in my mind that is wholly different matter. It is a gross breach of sportsmanship. It brings the sport into disrepute and if he cheated he should not be allowed near an Olympic race course ever again and should be banned from racing for a period of time.   There is no place for deliberate dishonesty in our sport. 

But I would want a rule to penalize dishonesty and cheating and gross misconduct even without the Olympics and as you point out, these were not the Olympics, they were sailors who were also Olympians. 

The Anslie incident is exactly related to the title of this thread. It was about spectators and ISAF/WS’s insatiable desire to become a sports tv production company. If the goal is more tv coverage, guess what, that means more cameraboats in places that were never there prior to trying to force feed sailing on tv. Sailors and everyone else needs to understand the cameraboat is going to be in the way from time to time.

Its interesting that you place a greater value measurement issues for a class where there is so much unknown about the measurement vs a guy who created a physical altercation.  Nice to know your value system.

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Personally I think the Olympics have gotten out of hand. Eliminate the big team sports like hockey, basketball, soccer/football etc. Keep just the little team stuff like luge, skeleton etc. The big sports have their own big stage venues. Minimize equipment to the carrying capability of the typical Olympian (skis, skates, javelin, etc.) So I guess all the sailboats will be Opti sized or surf sized which would allow small courses close to shore. Even as an avid golfer, I didn't favor the addition of golf to the Olympics; the 4 majors are sufficient international competition.

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We’ve all seen this before, but what the hell, it’s funny enough to view again.

 

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6 hours ago, sunseeker said:

The Anslie incident is exactly related to the title of this thread. It was about spectators and ISAF/WS’s insatiable desire to become a sports tv production company. If the goal is more tv coverage, guess what, that means more cameraboats in places that were never there prior to trying to force feed sailing on tv. Sailors and everyone else needs to understand the cameraboat is going to be in the way from time to time.

Agreed!

6 hours ago, sunseeker said:

It’s interesting that you place a greater value measurement issues for a class where there is so much unknown about the measurement vs a guy who created a physical altercation.  Nice to know your value system.

I don’t believe he intended to argue that physical assault is less blameworthy than gaming measurement criteria. If I understand post #28 correctly, he was only suggesting that hot-headed impulsive behaviour should be punished less harshly than coldly-calculated deliberate misconduct.

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58 minutes ago, Svanen said:

Agreed!

He was only suggesting that hot-headed impulsive behaviour should be punished less harshly than coldly-calculated deliberate misconduct.

Exactly.  

Lets be clear, Ainslie is not the kind of person who has not been getting into physical fights in bars and dry sailing areas. I would not describe him as hot headed (say compared to certain celebrity skippers we can all name)  A camera boat hindered his race in a world championship. He was furious ( as would a lot of people have been), he jumped off his boat , climbed on a rib and yelled at the skipper and cameraman and then pushed by them to jump off and swim after his boat. As he pushed by the camera man, he grabbed the cameraman's life vest knocking the camera man off balance. the cameraman was clear that Ainslie did NOT swing at him.    

So I said IF (capital IF)  Iker had deliberately cheated then yes that is a whole different ball of wax from yelling at and then boarding a camera boat that ruined your race.

You have caught my value system. I race. I never cheat. I dont want to sail with or against people who cheat.  I have raced against people who occasionally get stressed in the heat of competition. I think it is appropriate to talk to them and ask them to refrain but I will sail against them.   There is something about deliberately cheating which is a  character flaw. I just dont want any part of it.    I think someone can be given a chance to amend themselves but cheating is a very bad thing and thats one cause for 69 that I am okay with whether it is in amateur of professional sailing.

 

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How is it that the actual story was about how they were reducing the number of spectators so there would be fewer to evacuate in the event of a tsunami, and no one has bothered to even comment on the fact that f there is such big tsunami risk, would about the risk to the sailors who are actually on the water?  Maybe they should move the venue to a safer location?

Or maybe we can just bitch about the effect of sailing being being an Olympic sport?

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Just a question.

Other than Sydney, has there been 5000 shore side spectators to view sailing at the Olympics?

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On 1/31/2019 at 12:58 AM, The Q said:

Since  the 2020 Paralympic games dropped the sailing entirely,  you wonder if this is the gradual push to remove sailing from the games..

Sailing was removed from the Paralympics for 2 reasons.

  1. It was the same people and countries over and over and over and over since it's inclusion after the 1996 Savannah Games where it was a demonstration event. Sydney 2000 was the first official Games for sailing. SO 2000 to 2016, probably the shortest life of any event in the Oly or Para games.
     
  2. After the IPC, International Paralympic Committee, said, they wanted more women represented, ISAF and IFDS lowered the standards for disabled certification. That was the nail in the coffin of Para Sailing. It became an event of the Least Disabled. Though there were plenty of real disabled, there were very few near the top 3.

Everyone should use sip and puff and there should only be the double handed RS Venture. Then lets see who wants to race. It will only be the truly disabled.

 

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Who cares?

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15 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Sailing was removed from the Paralympics for 2 reasons.

  1. It was the same people and countries over and over and over and over since it's inclusion after the 1996 Savannah Games where it was a demonstration event. Sydney 2000 was the first official Games for sailing. SO 2000 to 2016, probably the shortest life of any event in the Oly or Para games

 

 

 That's a lame excuse when Archery has Huber Van innis with 6 golds and 3 silvers

Basket ball is almost always won by the USA.

Swimming has Michael Phelps with 23 Golds 3 silver and 2 Bronze

Table tennis is almost always won by China

 

Then you look at say Paralympic running with mulitiple different categories so almost all can win some sort of medal..

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1 hour ago, The Q said:

Swimming has Michael Phelps with 23 Golds 3 silver and 2 Bronze

Thats another point why sailing has a difficult stand to attract viewers. For 28 olympic medals you would need to compete 112 years. People love their heroes and 2 or 3 gold medals is just not enough. 
 

We need more disciplines where a sailor can compete simultaneously. Nacra 17 short course and Nacra 17 long distance race (4 hours). 470 up and down and a drop out slalom race in a stadium area. 49er team race. 

I also don't understand the 1 nation rule and the limitation in starters. I honestly think that's couses the big problems on the back end of the fleet. 20 starters for a fleet race is a joke. Imagine a marathon with that many starters. 

More medals and more competitors would result in more media time and obviously more sailors to follow and identify with. More medals for an individual athlete would gain the chances to have someone who really pushes the attraction level of our whole sport. 

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21 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

Sailing was removed from the Paralympics for 2 reasons.

  1. It was the same people and countries over and over and over and over since it's inclusion after the 1996 Savannah Games where it was a demonstration event. Sydney 2000 was the first official Games for sailing. SO 2000 to 2016, probably the shortest life of any event in the Oly or Para games.
    5 hours ago, The Q said:

     That's a lame excuse when ….

    Swimming has Michael Phelps with 23 Golds 3 silver and 2 Bronze

    Then you look at say Paralympic running with mulitiple different categories so almost all can win some sort of medal..

     

 

 Michael Phelps won most of those medals in the able bodied Olympics.

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13 hours ago, The Q said:

 That's a lame excuse when Archery has Huber Van innis with 6 golds and 3 silvers

Basket ball is almost always won by the USA.

Swimming has Michael Phelps with 23 Golds 3 silver and 2 Bronze

Table tennis is almost always won by China

 

Then you look at say Paralympic running with mulitiple different categories so almost all can win some sort of medal..

 

8 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 Michael Phelps won most of those medals in the able bodied Olympics.

The problem is the Olympics have a feeder system.

The Paralympics have Accidents and Ambulances as a feeder system.

You guys should do your home work. I downloaded the results from WS on all the Paralympic and world events and the IPC is right. The same countries and the same people over 16 years......................Bye Bye

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12 hours ago, born2sail.at said:

More medals and more competitors would result in more media time and obviously more sailors to follow and identify with. More medals for an individual athlete would gain the chances to have someone who really pushes the attraction level of our whole sport. 

Consider an event where one nation is consistently dominant...e.g. USA Swimming or the GBR Finn Squad. I don't think many MNA's would be excited to keep funding a certain discipline if the results were never going to be favorable towards them.

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19 hours ago, EYESAILOR said:

 Michael Phelps won most of those medals in the able bodied Olympics.

That I know, but the point was getting rid of a sport from the olympics because of the dominance of one person or country..

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11 hours ago, onepointfivethumbs said:

Consider an event where one nation is consistently dominant...e.g. USA Swimming or the GBR Finn Squad. I don't think many MNA's would be excited to keep funding a certain discipline if the results were never going to be favorable towards them.

I think there is not much difference to the status quo. There are only a few nations competing in every discipline. Sailing is not a sport where you can guarantee a medal anyway. Think of Billy Besson or Lara Vadlau. 

I just think that 20 teams isn't enough. One fleet with 40 boats would be better. Maybe two teams per nation. With that you automatically have one more medal per discipline because you can award the best nation. 

The basic problem is that sailing basically has one media appearance every 4 years. And not even at the olympics every race is covered. The development in the last years has lead to shorter races with quick decisions. A good thing if you have an audience. For sailing a slower approach with more time on the screen would be better. More like, snooker, curling, golf or marathon not like cross skiing or athletics. Currently it is very unlikely that someone accidentally end up watching a sail race but its very likely that you end up watching golf when you watching at night. 

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If sailing acted more like Track and Field, it might actually be a good thing.
Many disciplines and qualifying at the games for each discipline.
Imagine that, twice as many as we see currently and watching the qualifying.

But who would watch it.............................NOBODY, except us.................which is really nobody.

 

:)

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21 minutes ago, Meat Wad said:

But who would watch it.............................NOBODY, except us.................which is really nobody.

So why is nobody watching sail racing? I mean there are people watching chess, curling even cricket. Personally I think watching cycling is boring as hell. And so on. 
 

I think there are two options: 

1. Its a hen and egg problem. There is no TV time, so there is no opportunity to watch and the games every four years with very little TV time as well is not really a game changer in this topic. 

More TV time = more audience (critical mass) 

2. The target group is wrong. People watching specific sports due to different reasons. Faster, more crashes and shorter maybe is the wrong way for our sport. I mean people watching the tour de France, maybe we should ask ourselves why they watch this. Or we try to catch up with action sports but then big changes have to be made. Its too boring to be an action sport and its too fast to attract the viewing group of long distance sports. (That has nothing to do with the boats, just with the race format!) 

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2 hours ago, Meat Wad said:

If sailing acted more like Track and Field, it might actually be a good thing.
Many disciplines and qualifying at the games for each discipline.
Imagine that, twice as many as we see currently and watching the qualifying.

But who would watch it.............................NOBODY, except us.................which is really nobody.

 

:)

I think an interesting way to go about it would be to abandon the current OD classes as they are, and create disciplines like "Men's Singlehander" and "Women's Doublehander (Trapeze)". Each country would get a quota proportionate to its adult population, so if there were ten disciplines then large developed countries would get ten spots while small countries would get two or three. Countries would organize their trials using their MNA's boat of choice.

A hundred-boat qualification series, winnowed down to a 25-boat gold fleet, followed by a point-to-point distance race, and the top ten boats go into a match racing round-robin.

The only catch would be that no one would know the boat they would be sailing until they got there, so you could have a really great 470 team thrown into an F18, or a Finn sailor has to learn quickly how to be a good Contender sailor.

Then there's no arms race, there's no bitching about representation because there would be 5x men's and 5x women's events, no SMOD would be able to snatch up all the contracts then turn around and make shitty boats (cough...cough...LP), and then the best all-around sailors, who know how to sail different boats, and handle both huge fleet management and small fleet match racing. Then different classes all get even exposure and sailors aren't painting themselves into a corner.

I think Elvstrom proposed something like this once, sadly probably would never get off the ground.

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On 2/2/2019 at 4:12 AM, IPLore said:

Meaningless comment.

There are plenty of things that could benefit our sport. Being dropped from the Olympics is NOT one of them.

Those of us in the front line of promoting sailing, trying to run regattas and raise sponsorship know the value of the Olympics. Although they are fun to watch, the reality is that the trickle down from events like the Americas Cup etc do not really help us organize or run local regattas. The Olympics creates an aspiration for the really talented youth sailors to remain in small boat sailing.  It allows us to show sponsors that we are relate to an Olympic sport that the sponsor recognizes. Although no fan of World sailing, they provide rules and  they are (thankfully) primarily funded through IOC.

Typing in capitals and the other very lame arguments given do little to support massive taxpayer funding toward an expensive elite niche with dubious benefits if any to club sailing.

The money directed to the niche albeit likely a smaller amount could be better focused on exciting affordable sailing for the average punter - the real backbone behind sailing.

 

 

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Olymipic sailing has very little positive effect on club membership or participation. The only people that really care are the Opti moms.

 Unfortunately Olympic sailing has become so specialized and out of touch with the average sailor that no ones really that interested in the results. As a spectator sport it’s absolutely pathetic, very hard to watch very boring and hard to understand. If there ever was an elite sport that shuts out the vast majority of potential competitors/participants/ viewers then sailing is it.

 I love sailing, I love watching it and I love racing, but the Olympics? Not so much, mainly because I don’t believe that gear sports are actually in the true spirit of the event. Compounding sailings gradual demise is that the Olympics seem to be one massive gravy train piled on top of an absolute bullshit medal competition by the host country and current super powers.

oh and did anyone mention PED’s?

 

 

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On 2/9/2019 at 12:44 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

I think an interesting way to go about it would be to abandon the current OD classes as they are, and create disciplines like "Men's Singlehander" and "Women's Doublehander (Trapeze)". Each country would get a quota proportionate to its adult population, so if there were ten disciplines then large developed countries would get ten spots while small countries would get two or three. Countries would organize their trials using their MNA's boat of choice.

A hundred-boat qualification series, winnowed down to a 25-boat gold fleet, followed by a point-to-point distance race, and the top ten boats go into a match racing round-robin.

The only catch would be that no one would know the boat they would be sailing until they got there, so you could have a really great 470 team thrown into an F18, or a Finn sailor has to learn quickly how to be a good Contender sailor.

Then there's no arms race, there's no bitching about representation because there would be 5x men's and 5x women's events, no SMOD would be able to snatch up all the contracts then turn around and make shitty boats (cough...cough...LP), and then the best all-around sailors, who know how to sail different boats, and handle both huge fleet management and small fleet match racing. Then different classes all get even exposure and sailors aren't painting themselves into a corner.

I think Elvstrom proposed something like this once, sadly probably would never get off the ground.

Okay, so let's work out the numbers. There are 350 sailors going to Tokyo - that's the limit set by the IOC. So with 10 events evenly spread, there's 35 sailors in each singlehanded event and 17 boats in each doublehanded event.

If we look at each nation's population and its proportion of global population, each nation will get the following number of entrants in each class;Singlehanders - China 6 sailors; India 6 sailors; USA 1 sailor; Indonesia 1 sailor; Brazil 1 sailor; Pakistan 1 sailor; Nigeria 1 sailor; Bangladesh 1 sailor; Russia 1 sailor; Mexico 1 sailor; Japan 1 sailor; Ethiopia 1 sailor; Phillipines 1 sailor; Egypt 1 sailor; Vietnam 1 sailor; Congo 1 sailor; turkey 1 sailor; Iran 1 sailor; Germany 1 sailor; Thailand 1 sailor;UK 1 sailor; France 1 sailor;  Tanzania 1 sailor; Italy 1 sailor; South Africa 1 sailor.

It would be even worse for the doublehanders. There would be three Chinese crews and three Indian crews. There would be one US crew, one Indonesian crew, 1 Brazilian crew,  a Pakistani crew, a Nigerian team, a Bangladeshi team, a boat from Russia, one from Mexico, and one from Japan.

The world's second, third, fourth, fifth and seventh best Olympic nations (according to 2016 results) wouldn't get a single starter between them.  If this proposal had been put in place over the last two events, we'd have seen no Dorian van Rijsslberghe or Bouwmeester; no Burton, Kontides,Stipanovic or Meech; no Slingsby; no Outteridge and Jensen; no Tuke and Burling, or Belcher, Fantela or Marenic. Zbogar wouldn't win Finn silver because he wouldn't be allowed to race. We wouldn't have seen Santiago Lange fight back from cancer to win gold. We wouldn't have seen Martine Grael and Kahena Kunze (or any of the other FX medallists). No Hanna Mills and Saskia Clark.

If events ran true to form, in the 49er the 11th best crew would have easily won gold, followed by the crews who finished third and second last. Gee, what a spectacle. At least the contest between the Pakistani, Nigerian, Bangladeshi, Indian and Chinese crews would have let us see those well-known skiff powerhouses in operation. Oh, and good luck to the sole US entrant when there are six Chinese sailors to team race them down the fleet.

As far as the proposal to keep the selected designs secret - how the hell is that going to work? Where are these boats going to be built in secret? With what moulds, spars and sails?

If the well funded teams know that there is a range of possible boats,they can just buy a whole range of different craft and sail on them. The Brits can afford to buy a Contender, an MPS, a RS 700, an International Canoe, a 14, a 49er, an RS 800 or whatever. How is the mythical Bangladeshi squad going to find funding to buy a full range of practise boats?

How does  a country even select a team, when they don't know what boats they will end up sailing? The only way to select a versatile sailor is to have the trials in various different classes - gee that would be a cheap event for competitors and organisers, wouldn't it!  

Of course, it would never get that far. As soon as sailing announced that it would only allow competitors from the 35th biggest nations, the other 170 nations would vote sailing out of the Games, post haste.

 

 

 

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Even better, make all the boats race together and use Portsmouth rating system. All the crews rotate threw the various boats - then we will see if the Nacra specialist can hold down a finn,  and figure out how to get a kite board around the course. The rating system would give some semblance of even handedness, but since everyone has to sail all 5 or 6 differint kinds of boats...... A 25 mile course each day - a real pentathalon of sailing!! Then you would get the Nacra style crashes that make sailing in Perth and San Fran so exciting to watch!

 

See, this isn't that difficult.

 

Lets see - a Finn (or RS or whatever - bring whatever rig size you like), a moth or a kite board, a 49er or a 18 footer, throw in a Melges 20, and maybe a Snipe for old schoolers. 3 persons, teams decide who is selected for the 1 and 2 man boats. Ben might still have won, but we would all respect and understand it.

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On 2/8/2019 at 4:02 PM, born2sail.at said:

So why is nobody watching sail racing? I mean there are people watching chess, curling even cricket. Personally I think watching cycling is boring as hell. And so on. 
 

I think there are two options: 

1. Its a hen and egg problem. There is no TV time, so there is no opportunity to watch and the games every four years with very little TV time as well is not really a game changer in this topic. 

More TV time = more audience (critical mass) 

2. The target group is wrong. People watching specific sports due to different reasons. Faster, more crashes and shorter maybe is the wrong way for our sport. I mean people watching the tour de France, maybe we should ask ourselves why they watch this. Or we try to catch up with action sports but then big changes have to be made. Its too boring to be an action sport and its too fast to attract the viewing group of long distance sports. (That has nothing to do with the boats, just with the race format!) 

Well, actually it is what can people do...................emulate.

-Almost everyone has access to sking. If they don't, they can watch and know they have access to try it.
You might think people have access to sailing, maybe at a certain level, but most do not feel they do have access to sailing.
Besides the learning curve is so long until you reach a certain level that most do not want to undertake the time to learn. Which is why ha also have so many computer illiterate people, even after  computers have been around for almost 40 years. People will not take the time to learn.

The reason sailing will fail, it does not reach the mainstream because it is considered out of reach.

On 2/8/2019 at 5:44 PM, onepointfivethumbs said:

I think an interesting way to go about it would be to abandon the current OD classes as they are, and create disciplines like "Men's Singlehander" and "Women's Doublehander (Trapeze)". Each country would get a quota proportionate to its adult population, so if there were ten disciplines then large developed countries would get ten spots while small countries would get two or three. Countries would organize their trials using their MNA's boat of choice.

A hundred-boat qualification series, winnowed down to a 25-boat gold fleet, followed by a point-to-point distance race, and the top ten boats go into a match racing round-robin.

The only catch would be that no one would know the boat they would be sailing until they got there, so you could have a really great 470 team thrown into an F18, or a Finn sailor has to learn quickly how to be a good Contender sailor.

Then there's no arms race, there's no bitching about representation because there would be 5x men's and 5x women's events, no SMOD would be able to snatch up all the contracts then turn around and make shitty boats (cough...cough...LP), and then the best all-around sailors, who know how to sail different boats, and handle both huge fleet management and small fleet match racing. Then different classes all get even exposure and sailors aren't painting themselves into a corner.

I think Elvstrom proposed something like this once, sadly probably would never get off the ground.

All disciplines are open. M/F. after all this is a sport open to all.

2 events with several course types. Salmon and W/L racing.

  • Single handed Moth Foiling. The hull is OD but based on the person sailing, the rig/sail is tailored to their weight.
  • double handed Foiling Cat. Once again. the Hull and foils are OD but the rig/sails can be tailored too the crew.

This is the only way big people and little people can compete against each other.

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