95Terp

Modified Columbia 30 info?

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I realize the order of operation is backward here, and I'm hesitant to ask, but we just purchased the boat and I was wondering if anyone knows the history or anything about it.  It's a 2008 Columbia 30 that has been somewhat modified.  Most notably it has twin rudders and the original carbon rig has been modified to fly a masthead jib.  Other than that it seems to have undergone a pretty aggressive weight reduction program - no main bulkhead, no hull liner, no inspection ports down below, no cushions, no settee storage bin liners, no sink or stove, no liners in the port and starboard pods where the sink and stove would be, a porta-potti, and an outboard motor.  So, it should have more upwind horsepower than the stock boat, the ability to keep it going straight, and I assume it's pretty light...  

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2 hours ago, 95Terp said:

I realize the order of operation is backward here, and I'm hesitant to ask, but we just purchased the boat and I was wondering if anyone knows the history or anything about it.  It's a 2008 Columbia 30 that has been somewhat modified.  Most notably it has twin rudders and the original carbon rig has been modified to fly a masthead jib.  Other than that it seems to have undergone a pretty aggressive weight reduction program - no main bulkhead, no hull liner, no inspection ports down below, no cushions, no settee storage bin liners, no sink or stove, no liners in the port and starboard pods where the sink and stove would be, a porta-potti, and an outboard motor.  So, it should have more upwind horsepower than the stock boat, the ability to keep it going straight, and I assume it's pretty light...  

I was very interested in these boats, and followed them for a while. I remember a boat on the West Coast that had twin rudders, but IIRC that boat also had a wheel.

It sounds like your boat's structural modifications may have been made with more eye to weight reduction than structural integrity. Stiff & strong is fast, might want to double check everything before hitting the gas pedal!

These are really cool boats, congrats

FB- Doug

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You might try contacting Vince at Columbia Yachts, I'm sure he has info.  That boat was sailed out of Dana Point, Ca originally by a couple of guys.  I think they bought the hull and rig from Columbia but then "assembled" the boat themselves with the twin rudders and masthead rig being a clear change from the original C30.  The boat had none of the additional interior pieces only the base structural pieces.  Those boats were a little "flexy" so be sure to check any points of load bearing, ie winch bases, turning blocks, deck joint...

 

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Vince claimed to have no knowledge of the boat.  Nor did Tim Kernan...

We've been over the boat a few times and had a survey done as well.  It looks solid, just dirty and a little neglected.  

 

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Well if it’s the boat I thinking of then it was definitely a “Frankenstein” of sorts, assembled by owners and continually modified as they went.  It was definitely fast off the wind, upwind you needed railmeat and a good driver to navigate any wave action.  Due to its lightness and flat bottom it could slam and stop if not careful.  One of the owners was a sailmaker, I say that with a hint of sarcasm, so there was a constant redesign of sails.  

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I don't think any of those sails are still around if that's the case.  It has a set of North 3di's and asym's and a brand new Code 0.  

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95-  I'm somewhat familiar with the boat. I own the prototype Hull #1. Understand that all of these boats are a bit different depending on when they were built.

Good, generally well built boats that were ahead of their time. What seemed strange then such as cockpit comings, inboard, and high free-board are pretty normal now.

I can tell you that yours is a later model that was in fact finished off and commissioned by the buyers. How well any of it was executed is not known however you should have a good base platform in any case. The boats are indeed quick, easy to sail, and comfortable while offering some headroom and cockpit space.

I'm not a fan of that twin rudder setup and would look at a deep single rudder option generally for less drag. The boat is pretty narrow. If it's sailed correctly, you should never have any issues. The Southern Spars mast you have is a good mast, same section as the Farr 30 but the tip is supported higher up. Stiffer and lighter than the aluminum option that was also offered at the time. It was designed to eliminate the need for a backstay. I can tell you confidently that it does in fact require a backstay in anything over 8 kts, upwind or down. Without support, there is too much headstay sag which generally powers up the boat too much, reduces pointing, and increases the heel.

Your mast was modded by raising the forestay tang about 6-7' higher than original it appears. Without knowing what else was done to keep the mast in column, I'd definitely have this checked out by a competent mast rigger. It's a good idea, but there is a ton of work involved besides just moving the forestay point up. Were the hounds entirely relocated up higher, or just the headstay?

Check that tang for any signs of wear/tear. Check for inversion upwind and use your backstays. When I talked to Southern about doing a mod such as this, they were strongly against it for many reasons. If it was done correctly, you should have a rocket. Not certain where you sail but this is a light air/high powered setup in it's current config. Good luck and have fun.

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Thanks for the info.  It seems to have survived 10 years of sailing pretty well and It looks to me that whoever put it together knew what they were doing.  We haven't had the rig down yet to inspect it closely, but that will happen soon.  I don't see any provision for a backstay currently and it has a square top main.   However, I have been concerned about the lack of mast bend control so we'll probably look to set something up.  How aggressively do you tune your rig to changing conditions? 

We sail on the Chesapeake which is typically 10 kts or less.  However, we will certainly see days in the 20+ range as well.  

masthead close.jpg

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Good photo - lots to see here... I'm make no claims to be a rig expert but what I see is that your D2 intermediates are not doing much to manage your headstay tension. In fact they may invert in their current config. The original headstay attachment point would terminate right where the D2's are. Since the headstay attaches higher up now, your Cap shrouds have the new job of maintaining headstay tension when they were originally managing tip flex. Issue is if you tighten them, you make the tip stiffer. The boat is already tender... Seems the other owners put all of their eggs in this basket (light air/rocket fast).

Like I said, great for light air however you may have some issues in med to heavy air since your Caps are strung on. Adding a backstay will help. I'd love to hear from someone who really knows this area and not another forum clown regarding this.

You have a very powered up rig. If your are using a Zero, you definitely need dual backstays, no question. I don't see a masthead crane on this rig.

 

 

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Yeah - I wouldn't say the boat was put away well for the winter.  It's going to take a good bit of sorting and updating...

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1 hour ago, longy said:

And yer spi halyard is badly f**cked

We used to do that same thing with our topping lift. Stops the foil from flopping about in strong breeze. 

Edit: Although we weren’t that “creative “ about it. 

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I'm assuming we'll carry a good bit of prebend in the rig which should help keep it from inverting.  However, in thinking about it, I guess we do have the hardware in place for runners.  They aren't currently rigged, nor did I see them anywhere on the boat though.

  

6844596_20180917131036318_1_XLARGE.jpg

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Dumb question but why not just find the original owners and ask them how it all works? Boat's only 10 years old, I'd think they'd be easy to track down.

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I was hoping this approach may accomplish that to some extent.  I don't know who they are...

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As I recall the boat did have a set of masthead runners.  

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Was the boat called Kamikaze?  I've been searching SoCal PHRF ratings from 2009...

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Alright - some more questions just to verify my thinking.  The keel lift runs through that block, back up through one of the two blocks on the crane, then back down and terminates on the shackle just aft of the block correct?  I assume the forward and aft-most bolts are locking the keel in the down position?  And then the loose metal plate and shackle sitting there are for the single-point lifting strap that gets attached to the aft lock-down bolt when the keel is in the raised position?  Finally, what is the round plug on the forward port side of the keel - was there a kelp cutter at some point?  

keel trunk 1.jpg

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Yours is definitely setup different... First, ditch that block and replace with a new high load alloy sheave bolted in for the main lifting point.

Don't use a lashed block or it could get ugly.

Mine runs from crane, thru sheave and back up to anchor point on crane. Not sure what those tabs are for. Most likely for strap as you mention.

There should be attachment points for this at the rear base of keel trunk and forward floor of cockpit. If not, you'll have to find where those tabs bolt to.

The plug on the Port side is exactly that, a plug. Remove and push in the kelp cutting device (see photo). When done, reinstall plug. Takes about 8 sec.

Also works well for underwater bluetooth camera on your phone if you make an acrylic plug. Check for kelp anytime this way.

 

 

 

 

 

kelp cutter.jpg

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So you're running a 3:1 purchase then?  This is what I have on the crane currently...

 

 

keel lift_2.jpg

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IMGP0097-1024x680.thumb.jpg.06a2b9ca65ada0cd3dc9cdeddce52d57.jpg

Mine is 4:1 and terminates at crane end-cap. Sorry no photo. The extra purchase is good if you use a cordless driver instead of the winch which can be slow.

Your crane is lacking the end-cap where pad-eye would be. 

Some boats are also rigged 2:1 like above. Faster to winch up but more muscle required.

You should also have a worm drive winch that holds everything in place when under tension.

 

 

post-1-1097598264.jpg

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All in all a fast looking ride and good choice for the bay I'm sure! I'm no expert but in the interest of debate how are they getting away with no main bulkhead? That's suspicious to me and given the chop we sail in on the Chesapeake a stiffer boat is worth a little bit of weight.

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8 minutes ago, samc99us said:

All in all a fast looking ride and good choice for the bay I'm sure! I'm no expert but in the interest of debate how are they getting away with no main bulkhead? That's suspicious to me and given the chop we sail in on the Chesapeake a stiffer boat is worth a little bit of weight.

It's not a bulkhead. Nothing structural in fact. Merely a lightweight privacy partition for the head and v-berth held in place by a few screws. Some boats including mine have removed them for more space/access to fore-peak and sail stowage. Heads and holding tanks removed as well. Makes the boat much more roomy inside accessing usable space.

 

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That's interesting - we were debating what to do about that as the previous owner had the bulkhead but never installed it.  I was chatting with Tim Kernan a couple years ago about his boat (ex. Comanche, Exigent, etc) and he mentioned that he had added carbon bulkheads and framing which he thought made a big difference in performance.  

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Carbon Wedge Tabs under key deck areas have been added. Same on chain plate frame. This is a grid boat so no primary bulkheads. I know the later boats were a bit lighter (and more flexi) especially Exigent which was the lightest and most oil canny of the bunch. Also the fastest. Perhaps a bulkhead was added but I’m unaware of it and never seen. The first 2 boats were built by Morelli Melvin when they still had a shop so no issues with these although they are probably about 300-450 lbs heavier overall. This also includes inboard saildrive and the 2’ stern treatment a few of these got including mine. Yours should be a kick to sail as it’s basically stripped of everything. Curious what it weighs in at. Have fun!

E7ACA3DB-20D4-4C6D-8A01-BD5892E82B1A.jpeg

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Yeah - I have to imagine it's quite light - there's basically nothing to it besides the base structure and electronics.  Exigent is actually sailing out near me now - we've been chatting with the new owner a little.  I'd like to get a look at it sometime.  So is your boat the former Pacific High?  

Yes, the listing does mention the runners.  I'll have to look for them.  The boat is currently 4 hours away so that'll have to wait a week or two.  

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Looks nice.  Hope we can get ours looking that good eventually.  

It'll be interesting to see what rating we end up with.  Exigent (Now Victorine) rates 75 on the bay.  I would think we should be right around there...

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Single Rating? That seems generous but I’m not familiar with East Coast PHRF. I’m lower at 72 buoy and I’m carrying the smaller jib and inboard. Rating gets way lower for downwind events here. Hell- I think I owe the J88 time which seems absurd but whatever.

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We have random course ratings too which are lower, but they aren’t commonly used that I’ve seen.  And I think J/88’s rate 87 here...

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Update - finally got the boat down from CT and started through the lengthy project list.  The trough in the cockpit floor around the hatches seems destined to be a persistent cesspool.  Has anyone come up with a solution to the standing water in there?  

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There should be 2 drain holes towards the rear, channeled through piping leading to transom exits. If you have the drains, make sure they are not clogged.

If you don’t, you’ll need to I install them.

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Yep.  The list is going in the wrong direction so far...

 

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If your boat is the former "Pi," it rated 60 in ECSA in 2014. In contrast my Columbia 32 rated 75, but we've got the ballenger aluminum spar and fractional jib.

Jack Orr from North did a lot of work with that boat. You definitely need to find the runners. Jack showed me pictures from around 2014 of that rig inverted with a J1 or J2 up... owner was complaining about the fact that he couldn't sail it to the rating. You've got an outboard too if I remember so you've ditched the weight of the 1GM10 (as did eXigent). Personally I like pressing the button and not having to shlub around an outboard when I'm delivering the boat but you're obviously cool with it if you bought it ;)

the hatch drains, as I14 pointed out, are crucial, as is keeping them clear. high quality gasket material is also a must.

I'm not sure if yours has the carbon blade keel or the ductile iron. If it's the iron one, you'll need to check every year that you didn't cut through the fairing material with a crab pot line. The keel on my boat has been problematic, with delamination and a piss poor repair job. PO had it on a hydro lift and would motor in with the keel up, banging around in the trunk, thing was a mess. Don't do that - the boat's not meant to move with the keel up unless you can wedge it and keep it from swinging around. Feel free to PM if you have any questions.

here's a link to the last cert it had that I'm aware of. http://join.ecsa.net/cert2014.aspx?b=3854

 

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On 2/4/2019 at 1:56 PM, Irrational 14 said:

 

 

27 minutes ago, ryley said:

If your boat is the former "Pi," it rated 60 in ECSA in 2014. In contrast my Columbia 32 rated 75, but we've got the ballenger aluminum spar and fractional jib.

Jack Orr from North did a lot of work with that boat. You definitely need to find the runners. Jack showed me pictures from around 2014 of that rig inverted with a J1 or J2 up... owner was complaining about the fact that he couldn't sail it to the rating. You've got an outboard too if I remember so you've ditched the weight of the 1GM10 (as did eXigent). Personally I like pressing the button and not having to shlub around an outboard when I'm delivering the boat but you're obviously cool with it if you bought it ;)

the hatch drains, as I14 pointed out, are crucial, as is keeping them clear. high quality gasket material is also a must.

I'm not sure if yours has the carbon blade keel or the ductile iron. If it's the iron one, you'll need to check every year that you didn't cut through the fairing material with a crab pot line. The keel on my boat has been problematic, with delamination and a piss poor repair job. PO had it on a hydro lift and would motor in with the keel up, banging around in the trunk, thing was a mess. Don't do that - the boat's not meant to move with the keel up unless you can wedge it and keep it from swinging around. Feel free to PM if you have any questions.

here's a link to the last cert it had that I'm aware of. http://join.ecsa.net/cert2014.aspx?b=3854

 

Wow- looking at the cert, that "I" measurement is 9' higher than original Southern Spars config... Like I said, this will be a beast in the light but she'll get overpowered prematurely with that setup. 95- Hope you have a lot of friends that want to go sailing.

Ryley - Don't you guys on the East Coast use Off Wind Ratings as well? On the West Coast, I'm at 72 W/L and 48 Off-wind. Clubs will use the specific rating determined by course.

 

 

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That's the boat, yes.  I'm sure the learning curve is going to be steep.  The standing section of the runners is there - just not the lower running part.  We're working through those issues.  We do have multiple jibs to choose from so that should help some.  When I was discussing boats with Tim Kernan a few years back he strongly suggested the 7/8th fractional rig modification as the original configuration was challenging in light air.  So in comparison to that, we're only a few feet higher on the "I".  I think the boat was up to a 66 rating most recently.  That being said, i have no idea how competent the former owner was.  I never saw a picture of him flying a kite, and several showed the main with no clew strap if that's any indication...

I don't love an outboard, but it does have its benefits.  We're considering electric for short trips to and from the racecourse on weeknights.  

It is the iron keel.  Seems to be in pretty good shape other than some rust and delam right around the hull opening.  The boat lived in the water or on jackstands with the keel down.  I don't think it had been raised in several years.  

 

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Actually, I14 can confirm this but 7/8 was NOT the original config. The original, single spreader carbon stick with no backstay and runners was closer to a 3/4 hoist. My Ballenger spar is pretty close on to a 7/8. Looking at original left coast pictures, the jibs look tiny. My boat's pretty much a weapon in light air, as long as it's flat. it's also not too shabby off the wind - last year in a pursuit race around boston harbor islands, we got passed upwind in some heavy stuff where we really needed a #3 by a J111. We passed him back on the downwind and finished a few minutes ahead of him.

This video was taken the year before that. We were reefed with A2 up, and only 5 on board. We really got hammered going upwind, but the dw was a lot of fun ;)

I14, PHRF-NE is still a single number system, but the majority of our races switched to ORR-ez last year and we're pretty committed to that. I just got my YRA cert for BIRW, but I'm kind of done buying PHRF certs unless absolutely necessary ;)

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Yup - 3/4 rig. I carry a conservative Square Top Main w/2 reefs, L/M #1, HVY #1,  #4 (no furler) and dual runners w/deflectors at hounds.

This gives me decent power I can control up the range.

A2, A3, A5, Zero, and Staysail for downwind options. Considering Symmetrical kite and pole for the VMG advantage.

Putting in some Ropeyes for outboard sheeting options so I can carry my #1 longer as breeze builds. Still a ton of work to do but getting there.

Goal is coastal and some light offshore racing. I'm not looking for more power where I sail.

Columbia30_Plan_01.jpg

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I14, my C30-2 was definitely rigged for a symmetrical. track on the mast with ring, a fitting on the foredeck for the foreguy... but by the time I bought it none of the moving bits were with the boat - no pole, no sym chute. I think it must have had the symmetric when it was on Lake Lanier, but might not have been as effective as they hoped.

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Looking forward to some downwind rides like that.  That kite looks gigantic!  

I know the original rig is 3/4 - Tim was suggesting that rig was underpowered in light air and that's why they started going with the 7/8th on the 30-2's.  With the masthead jib and square top main I don't expect that will be an issue for us.  I imagine we'll be reefing early and often...

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95Terp, I don't know what boat you're coming from, but if you have any questions about getting up to speed on this thing, I'm happy to help.

And yes, that kite was big.. too big actually. I have new North A2 that is slightly smaller but a better shape - if you look at the video, our luff is too long and it's hard to control the curl. New one should be sportier.

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4 hours ago, ryley said:

I14, my C30-2 was definitely rigged for a symmetrical. track on the mast with ring, a fitting on the foredeck for the foreguy... but by the time I bought it none of the moving bits were with the boat - no pole, no sym chute. I think it must have had the symmetric when it was on Lake Lanier, but might not have been as effective as they hoped.

It would be nice to try with a used masthead sym kite. The boat needs about roughly 16 knots to get on the step downwind. Anything less and you could be poling back like a big 5o5.

Worth an experiment at least. If others have done this before, would love to know about the results.

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2 hours ago, ryley said:

95Terp, I don't know what boat you're coming from, but if you have any questions about getting up to speed on this thing, I'm happy to help.

And yes, that kite was big.. too big actually. I have new North A2 that is slightly smaller but a better shape - if you look at the video, our luff is too long and it's hard to control the curl. New one should be sportier.

Thanks for the offer - I'll definitely take you up on it.  We're coming from a Beneteau 10r, so it's quite different from that.  Prior to that though we had a Melges 24 and then an Antrim 27, so this boat isn't unfamiliar.  

We have a pile of kites to sort through.  The newest is a North A1.5 that looks hardly used.  We also have a light A2, and then three other A2's of differing vintages, one of which is labelled "old, big".  It looks old and big.  We also have an almost unused C0.  

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Another question - we're currently rigged with 2 tack lines.  Does that seem necessary?  I've never felt like I wished I had 2 on previous boats.  For the most part we would never do a peel - legs are too short.  Is it needed with the Code 0?  Distance races maybe?  

 

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We only use one. Tapered and super low stretch. Also - If you don't already have a bobstay on the pole, add that to the list. It's required.

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We have a bobstay.  I want to clean that up though.  How do you have it rigged to retract?  

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Simple Ring and stiff shock cord running alongside of deck keeps it taught against bow.

Photos of setup deployed and retracted. Use SK99 for bobstay.

 

IMG_1912.JPG

IMG_1289.JPG

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On 2/8/2019 at 3:01 PM, 95Terp said:

Looks nice.  Hope we can get ours looking that good eventually.  

It'll be interesting to see what rating we end up with.  Exigent (Now Victorine) rates 75 on the bay.  I would think we should be right around there...

Got slapped with a 63 rating.  I guess we'll see...

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Just an FYI - Inspect your mast butt and cradle closely! Aluminum cradle resting on Stainless hinge plate made quite a bit of an electrolysis chemistry experiment.

My current project is fabricating a new cradle since Southern Spars does not make it anymore. Same part used on Farr 30 if you can find one.

Installed a G10 Isolator Plate to hopefully prevent this in the future. It looked fine on the outside until you saw the white powder seeping out form the bottom.

 

 

thumbnail_IMG_2320.jpg

thumbnail_IMG_2322.jpg

thumbnail_IMG_2315.jpg

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Interesting.  I guess it's no surprise that our setup does not resemble that arrangement.  We don't have a hinge at all, nor do we have the plate with attachment points for the blocks.  No electrolysis though...   

deck.jpg

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Irrational, can you send me some close-ups of your bungy arrangement for the bobstay? I used some last year but it did not look nearly as good as yours.

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95Terp,

if you're in mostly light-air venues with the masthead jibs, you can probably sail to that 63 once you get familiar with the boat. in mid-range winds you'll get killed, and when you get back to planing conditions and can switch down to a j3 you might be able to make the 63 stick. I think 66 is more reasonable.

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19 hours ago, ryley said:

Irrational, can you send me some close-ups of your bungy arrangement for the bobstay? I used some last year but it did not look nearly as good as yours.

Next time I'm at the boat, I'll snap a few shots. In the meantime, I'll explain here since it's pretty easy:

Use SK99 Dyneema as opposed to SK78 for bobstay. Far less stretch and holds your splice lengths much better. This will save your sprit in the long run.

Locking splice at bow knuckle and before you terminate at sprit, slip on an Antal ring. The ring should be able to slide up and down wherever it wants to go.

After you terminate the other end of the new bobstay, pre-stretch it overnight using pole outhaul and winch. Once you're happy with the length, you can crimp 5/16" dyneema shock cord (Robline - around 12' or so) around the Antal ring. I used stainless hog rings and covered with heat shrink tubing.

This then goes through a small eyestrap on deck near the forestay (stbd side) then back to a small ti-lite at the base of the first stanchion, then forward to the pulpit attached at the base with a bowline. This allows you to adjust the new shock cord tension after it stretches following the first few outings. System is clean and barely visible. Makes everything more streamline eliminating any lines dragging or hanging off the bow.

Still doing tons of mods to this boat as time allows. Just finished all rig upgrades including new dyform forestay with calibrated turnbuckle and top mast runners w/deflectors at hounds. I should get way better headstay tension control now.

Next up is an upgrade to the upwind sail inventory (slightly larger fathead main w/straighter leech and matched to the new luff curve using the deflectors) and a new jib w/higher clew designed specifically for in-haulers.

Engine water pump is also on to-do list since it's starting to leak.

 

 

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if the water pump is leaking, consider changing the two oil lines that run right underneath it while you've got the pump off.

Also, thank you for the info on the retrieval line. I was almost planning to do an internal tack line but it's more hassle than it's worth.

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Yup, thanks. Done it already which is how I found the leak. Seems to be a trait with the GM10. Good little engine though other than that issue.

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1 hour ago, TimFordi550#87 said:

me want ride.  gimme a holler if you need another bod!

Always welcome.  We're not close to being in the water, but we'll be in touch!  

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Hell, I'm going to be an ORG in 2 weeks, (Old Retired Geezer) so should be an email if you need work in the boatyard.  I have CF and epoxy and will travel,  :-)

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Hey, Congrats!  Careful - I can tell you that's a dangerous offer at this point...:)  

 

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On 4/13/2019 at 6:23 PM, TimFordi550#87 said:

Hell, I'm going to be an ORG in 2 weeks, (Old Retired Geezer) so should be an email if you need work in the boatyard.  I have CF and epoxy and will travel,  :-)

Welcome to the club..... from what I see here at SA, you won't have any problem with friends or figuring out what to do with your time.

FB- Doug

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Hah!  Thanks, Steam.  Lookin' forward to it but I have a tendency to get sucked back into work...I stink at retiring it seems :-)

 

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On 4/5/2019 at 1:13 PM, 95Terp said:

Got slapped with a 63 rating.  I guess we'll see...

Ouch - that will be a bit tough

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63 is a dream come true rating...

SoCal Off-wind rating is 48 and that's with inboard and standard rig.

We have a 75 mile 2/3 down-winder coming up. If we get some breeze on the transom we should be able to hold it. Boat will be about as optimized as it can get and then some. We'll see how it goes.

 

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It already got worse.  PHRF board cancelled that certificate and issued a 60/54 rating.  No explanation  

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:wacko:

Gotta love PHRF. That's one reason I still sail class boats.

I think Ryley is starting to do some ORR events on the East Coast. Perhaps he can chime in on his experience with so far.

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19 minutes ago, 95Terp said:

It already got worse.  PHRF board cancelled that certificate and issued a 60/54 rating.  No explanation  

here's a link to the last NE PHRF cert that was issued: http://join.ecsa.net/cert2014.aspx?b=3854 - it was rated 60 up here too.

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10 minutes ago, Irrational 14 said:

:wacko:

Gotta love PHRF. That's one reason I still sail class boats.

I think Ryley is starting to do some ORR events on the East Coast. Perhaps he can chime in on his experience with so far.

Mass Bay started promoting ORR-ez events last year and we're continuing into 2019 in the same vein. ORA has expanded its ez reach into the chesapeake, southern florida, and the gulf coast as well as a smattering of Maine and California. There are many things to recommend ez in my opinion, not the least of which is rating the boat at different wind speeds and courses. I've attached my 2019 cert as an example. 

the 2019 version of ez is much improved over 2018 in my opinion. for one thing, the entire country is using the same courses and wind ranges, while retaining the custom ratings that some areas use like So Cal and Bayview Mac. This makes the certificate portable to any area. Also for this year, we are able to declare the max crew weight we'll be sailing with, higher or lower than the default, to more accurately reflect the way people sail their boats. lastly, (and this applied last year too), ORA does a good job of rationalizing the ratings against national PHRF averages and they take the time to try to figure out why boats rate faster (or slower) in ez than in PHRF when they differ by more than about 9spm. Last year we had about 390 certs country-wide by the end of the season with Mass Bay making up 205 of them - this year, we're already up to 151 certs overall and cold places haven't started racing yet.

There is a little more work for the RC because you have to decide on a wind strength, and different RC's have taken different approaches, but overall it's not that difficult. We did a survey at the end of the year that showed overall positive reception on the behalf of racers, OAs, and crew with the way ez performed. Of the 46 weekend races on our schedule, all but about 9 are ez races for 2019. 

ez isn't perfect, but it's pretty good and it does a good job of reflecting that 1 rating can't cover everything. I think SoCal got it partly right issuing different ratings for buoy and downwind, but still that doesn't take into account wind speed. One nice thing about ez is that you can get a very basic target table cheap because they have to generate your VPP anyway, so the cost basically covers the formatting and distribution.

ymmv, but it's exactly this seemingly arbitrary and undocumented, untraceable nature of PHRF adjustments that led us to switch.

R2ORR-ez2019.pdf

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10 minutes ago, ryley said:

lastly, (and this applied last year too), ORA does a good job of rationalizing the ratings against national PHRF averages and they take the time to try to figure out why boats rate faster (or slower) in ez than in PHRF when they differ by more than about 9spm.

ymmv, but it's exactly this seemingly arbitrary and undocumented, untraceable nature of PHRF adjustments that led us to switch.

R2ORR-ez2019.pdf

not so much in D fleet

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Firefly, are you stalking me? I forgot that you own a sport boat, so of course this thread is relevant to you.

And  if you had read ANYTHING that Jim and I had sent you this year, you would know that your information is out of date, and AS PROMISED, there are changes being made to the ratings in the D fleet as well. Of all the people who had anything to complain about last year, it was probably me with a 21spm hit, but that didn't stop me from a) doing 14 weekend regattas (15 with Ted Hood) and b) recognizing that it would take more than one season for ORA and MBSA to figure out where the gotchas are. How many races did you do to figure out that your rating was so far off?

Plenty of "D Fleet" boats are racing competitively up and down the east coast under EZ. You lost your credibility with me when you attacked me personally in an email after I made the effort to sit with ORA for 8 hours to figure out where the issues were in the D, F, and G fleets. I've got about 50 performance analysis spreadsheets from up and down the east and gulf coasts that all show that the racing is tighter and more fair under ez, and getting better with every boat in the database. Of course you won't know that because I'm sure you'll be content to race PHRF this year, which is fine - nothing wrong with that. Enjoy your season.

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Ryley- Good stuff. Thanks for the progress report. I’ll be looking into this on the left coast. Seems like a good alternative as I’m starting to see more regattas incorporating this.

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8 hours ago, Irrational 14 said:

Ryley- Good stuff. Thanks for the progress report. I’ll be looking into this on the left coast. Seems like a good alternative as I’m starting to see more regattas incorporating this.

feel free to pm me if you want any more info. Dan Nowlan has been handling a lot of the work on the left coast.

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Anywhooo......  what are you all using for heads?  Marine head?  Porta-potti?  We're planning to go with a porta potti but the floor space in the designated head location is limited.  Any solutions out there?  

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Mine came with a Jabsco twist and lock with the holding tank under the v-berth. The inlet is under the port side "sink" and there's no overboard discharge, just a deck fitting. I'm not a big fan of the Jabsco stuff but given that it barely gets used it's holding up fine, and it's fairly compact. 

https://www.defender.com/product3.jsp?name=jabsco-twist-n-lock-manual-toilet&path=-1|51|2234284|2234286&id=4210441

 

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Mine had a similar setup but I ripped all that crap out. A bucket is available in our cockpit locker if duty calls.

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Yeah - we've had both options on previous boats.  Going for something in between on this one.

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On 4/19/2019 at 11:48 AM, ryley said:

here's a link to the last NE PHRF cert that was issued: http://join.ecsa.net/cert2014.aspx?b=3854 - it was rated 60 up here too.

According to that cert, the boat is about 1,000lbs lighter than most of her sister-ships. If that's accurate, it most likely explains the rating change.

 

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yeah that displacement is suspect. I thought the lightest one was eXigent, which was Tim's personal boat and came in at something like 4800. I've always declared mine as 5500 and about 1650 for the ballast, but I have the iron keel, not the carbon and I've never had any of it weighed.

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We haven’t weighed it either of course.  That’s the displacement from the old PHRF certificate. Though Exigent is listed around 100 pounds lighter even. And rates 75...

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True, but eXigent is still the fractional rig. I think you're getting hit the most for going to the masthead jibs.

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