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Interesting post,so what was the agreement between Bundocks and Waterhouse?

Third place for Lange-Carranza, the senior Arg crew has already secured their participation for Tokyo 2020, after last Worlds and on the spot Lange pressured the uprising talented Majdalani & Bosco and make them sign and agreement to let go any official internal qualification in exchange for granted economical support , shared training and a Panamericans spot... We don't agree at all with that move, and now Lange is forced no excuses to bring a medal from Tokyo, anything less will be a failure and wasted opportunities, 4 years taken out of another young crew and a chance to growth further for this campaign. Like Waterhouse & Darmanin did when Bundy was campaigning for Rio.
There was no qualy that time neither for the Australian team, but the point being how a younger crew without Olympic experience were performing up to par or better than a legend like Bundock.

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I think it is important to read further down, there is no real internal qualification process in Argentina. Would I sign the agreement if I were in Majdalani/Bosco's spot? Maybe, they are young, probably have 2 more Olympics in front of them. We know this is Lange's last run for sure-quite honestly surprised they didn't quit after their spectacular performance in Rio, but you could say the same after T. Brady's superbowl win last night. Anyway, my point is they will gain a ton of experience still in the next year, they now have guaranteed funding which is HUGE, and young/inexperienced crews tend to falter on the Olympic stage unless they come in with a major boat speed advantage.

I don't recall the deal with Bundock being mentioned but I'm pretty sure he stepped into the coaching role in 2016, realizing the talent that Waterhouse had in the foiling N17.

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You are interpreting what is written incorrectly. He is using the example of Waterhouse becoming better than Bundy as a reason why Argentina shouldn't select Lange so soon because with more time, the youngsters might get better. There was no agreement between Bundy and Waterhouse. There was a selection process based on certain regattas although the selection committee had discretion. The other big difference between the Australian situation and that of the Argentinians is that Waterhouse had been the top Australian team for a while and certainly by the middle of 2014. With the Argentinians, Lange has been their top performer consistently, usually in the top 3 at international events while the youngsters have not been anywhere near close to Lange's level. 

 

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A Class Sailor reads it well , it is a comparison on how Waterhouse was performing, quite clear too reading the entire post. Now what you are missing is that the young Arg crew had top notch level with so little time on the Class and even racing together, just check their initial results in 2018 Worlds (they started their N17 campaign in late 2016): 

Mateo MAJDALANI
Eugenia BOSCO 
1.0 6.0 18.0 1.0 2.0 20.0 2.0

 

"anywhere near" ?  First bullet above was a win over Lange in +20 knots. Aside they finished top ten many events and shared par to par races with Lange countless others on the water and results, the difference being the experience and how to handle consistency.  They also finished top ten at Miami '19. Lange continues to perform in a more consistent way, but reviewing the kids hard data as posted above for ie, will tell you they have great potential.

4 years in their prime, too much to take from them, and the 1 to 1 comparison with Waterhouse & Bundy is a good proof. And next campaign they will need to qualy against Cittadini & Romairone, Nacra 15 World Champs & Youth Olympic Medalist 2018. Hope those don't get caught on a new agreement in the future neither..!

And another important thing to remark here is that  they were relegated in support, they don't even had an official coach with them.

Lange is a legend, but this was not called for, more in the way it was done, on the spot at 2018 Worlds venue. Mateo was also his assistant coach for Rio 2016.

Hard call for the kids too on signing or not, now both have peace of mind taking out qualy pressure situations for Lange and economical support and coaching for the kids, but one key thing is being left behind: Drive to win and improve and race under double pressure (for the event and the qualy).

Lange was in better shape now, of course , he had a granted win on a possible internal qualy? Surely greater chances but was not granted, thus how they forced the kids to that quick on the fly arrangement. And now of course he better brings a medal back to Arg from Tokyo.

Looking what Bora and the US team is doing is the right path to follow.

 

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23 hours ago, k2mav said:

Looking what Bora and the US team is doing is the right path to follow.

Let's see how that works out.

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On 2/6/2019 at 7:59 AM, k2mav said:

Now what you are missing is that the young Arg crew had top notch level with so little time on the Class and even racing together, just check their initial results in 2018 Worlds (they started their N17 campaign in late 2016): 

Mateo MAJDALANI
Eugenia BOSCO 
1.0 6.0 18.0 1.0 2.0 20.0 2.0

 

"anywhere near" ?  First bullet above was a win over Lange in +20 knots. Aside they finished top ten many events and shared par to par races with Lange countless others on the water and results, the difference being the experience and how to handle consistency.  They also finished top ten at Miami '19. Lange continues to perform in a more consistent way, but reviewing the kids hard data as posted above for ie, will tell you they have great potenti

You are misreading the data and not facing reality. To me, what you have posted shows how far off they really are. You cannot take the results of individual races as proof points and you certainl;y cannot take only a selection of the results like you have. What really counts in these events is the performance in the gold fleet once the fleets are split. In qualification, you aim for consistency, which they did not show. The most relevent results they got in qualification were the 18th and 20th, because those results put them out of contention. To be consistent, you often give up the chance to win races to get a 3rd or 4th, bacsue that is far more important. Then you look at gold fleet, when all the good guys come together. Those are the results that show real potential and unfortrunately, at this time, the youngsters are well off the pace. In the mean time, Lange consistently produces the results, time and again. Have the youngsters ever beaten Lange? They need to be doing that at every regatta. Surely the point has now been reached that you need to say that there is not enough time left for them to show that level of consistency. From what i can see, in most of the top sailing countries, their results wouldn't even get them into the main squad from which Olympic participants would be selected.

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15 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You are misreading the data and not facing reality. To me, what you have posted shows how far off they really are. You cannot take the results of individual races as proof points and you certainl;y cannot take only a selection of the results like you have. What really counts in these events is the performance in the gold fleet once the fleets are split. In qualification, you aim for consistency, which they did not show. The most relevent results they got in qualification were the 18th and 20th, because those results put them out of contention. To be consistent, you often give up the chance to win races to get a 3rd or 4th, bacsue that is far more important. Then you look at gold fleet, when all the good guys come together. Those are the results that show real potential and unfortrunately, at this time, the youngsters are well off the pace. In the mean time, Lange consistently produces the results, time and again. Have the youngsters ever beaten Lange? They need to be doing that at every regatta. Surely the point has now been reached that you need to say that there is not enough time left for them to show that level of consistency. From what i can see, in most of the top sailing countries, their results wouldn't even get them into the main squad from which Olympic participants would be selected.

+2. Unfortunately its reminiscent of the state of Nacra 17 sailing in the U.S, there are some good sailors who have put up low scores in the past but none really who are consistent. Bora may have gotten there before the accident but that's about it at this point.

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21 hours ago, A Class Sailor said:

You are misreading the data and not facing reality. To me, what you have posted shows how far off they really are. You cannot take the results of individual races as proof points and you certainl;y cannot take only a selection of the results like you have. What really counts in these events is the performance in the gold fleet once the fleets are split. In qualification, you aim for consistency, which they did not show. The most relevent results they got in qualification were the 18th and 20th, because those results put them out of contention. To be consistent, you often give up the chance to win races to get a 3rd or 4th, bacsue that is far more important. Then you look at gold fleet, when all the good guys come together. Those are the results that show real potential and unfortrunately, at this time, the youngsters are well off the pace. In the mean time, Lange consistently produces the results, time and again. Have the youngsters ever beaten Lange? They need to be doing that at every regatta. Surely the point has now been reached that you need to say that there is not enough time left for them to show that level of consistency. From what i can see, in most of the top sailing countries, their results wouldn't even get them into the main squad from which Olympic participants would be selected.

Aclass Sailor

You are being too definitive on a crew you clearly don't know or their actual performance, thus the results vs your "anywhere".

And finally we all know and results show that Lange is being superior at the moment, no one discussed that aspect. You also are unaware of the local fundings and support management.

The only issue here to contest is how the kids were approached at the Worlds and were say "forced"  or well convinced that they needed to sign abd cancel their will to qualify to Tokyo.

As we know Lange was being more consistent, (any other chance vs the kids on the water hours?) , So the only issue here is why he went for an unplanned on the spot on the fly document/agreement?

His superiority we all agree was enough to win an internal qualy  anywhere at any moment , plus he took advantage approaching the kids who didn't had a coach or relative to discuss with at the worlds.

If they didn't signed a qualy was due, cause Lange would have not gotten away on blocking the kids as they are well known and respected here and on their performance todate with so few hours.

It would have been a major scandal,  no matter his laurels, now this agreement is a softer deal as the kids signed.

 

What you describe counted and was in place for 2016 where other two crews were say discarded as indeed their results were poor, not the case this time around.

And clearly Lange thought so going for that agrrement for them to sign. Get the point?

No agreement whatsovever was seeked for the 2016 campaign.

You and I think alike, surely no contest in the end thus why that poor ethics and questionable agreement?

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Is there any corroboration on the whole thing? I'm Argentine and can report that culturally, gossip runs strong.

Also -- only one boat per country in Tokyo?

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1 hour ago, martin.langhoff said:

Is there any corroboration on the whole thing? I'm Argentine and can report that culturally, gossip runs strong.

Also -- only one boat per country in Tokyo?

Hi , this is official news by Arg Sailing Federation. https://fay.org/2018/09/26/majdalani-y-bosco-podio-en-nacra-17-en-japon/  

Thread started when someone referred  a post made in Catsailingews describing the agreement, and wondering why they didn't let the kids qualify, as it almost certain Lange would have won.

No more gossip or bad intentions or anything beyond hard factual news.

No room for much subjective discussion as is clear Lange is in better shape. We didn't like how this agreement was done. As it was better to have a Federation decision as done in the past, but problem this time that decision was a hard call to take for any official on the reasons posted above.

Thus the need for this mutual agreement.

For the 2016 campaign I had a hard time with personal friends who were campaigning as they complained on the support Lange was getting, it was clear he could ask , demand and deserved whatever he wanted and they , the new teams, needed to prove they were better. In that case , the performance was certainly "anywhere near", not the case again with the kids that have scored many final overall top ten in several events.

All said, all good, Lange is our idol and a Legend, he will represent us in the best way possible, we just hope the kids carreer and drive has not been and wont be affected by this.

Cheers.

 

 

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46 minutes ago, k2mav said:

this is official news by Arg Sailing Federation. https://fay.org/2018/09/26/majdalani-y-bosco-podio-en-nacra-17-en-japon/  

Good to hear it's public info, my search in the FAY website didn't show that article for some reason. The gossipy & bad blood bit is just in the Lange "on the spot pressured (...) Majdalani/Bosco". 

I understand the frustrations of dealing with competing for attention with an established name. And I think we can agree that it's damn hard to make a decision between a consistent performance of Lange/Carranza and the promise of the younger team. Here in Miami, where I saw both teams race, they both did well. Still, except for the first two races, Lange/Carranza finished ahead -- that's 2 to 11.

In the page linked below, use the checkboxes to mark the 2 teams, then click on the 'competitor analytics' tab.

https://wcs2019-miami.sapsailing.com/gwt/Home.html?#/regatta/leaderboard/:eventId=f393a743-dd49-450f-ab8b-d11522b266f2&regattaId=WCS 2019 Miami - Nacra 17

 

Screenshot 2019-02-07 19.19.07.png

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I still think that some of you are making something out of nothing. You look for something worng with such an agreement, if it does exist. It seems everybody is in agreement that Lange was going to win selection anyway. Couldn't the agreement be to ensure that they don't need to go through a pointless selection process? Most people accept that the sooner a team is selected and can stop sailing simply to win country selection, the sooner they can start training to win medals. When selection is still thge issue, you sail the selection regattas to ensure you win selection and not in a way to maximise the chances of winning a medal. 

These youngsters have done very well out of the deal. They get funding, they get to train with lange and they get places at events. Without the argeement, they would get none of that. Look to 2024, which is realistically their best chance for getting to the Olympics, isn't that far better than campaigning on your own at your own expense only to not get selected for 2020 anyway.

Getting back to the point of giving them a chance and comparisons with Jason Waterhouse, by this stage of the last cycle Waterhouse was already beating Bundock regularly, not just in occasional races but in major regattas (2014 Worlds Waterhouse was 3rd and Bundock was 9th), which is not the case here.

It seems to me like the deal was a very sensible move that improves Argentina's chances of a medal both in 2020 and 2024.

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