Jules

Daysails, Short Cruises for $15K?

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I ain't gettin' any younger but $15K is about all I can come up with now if I want to finally own that boat I've been dreaming about forever.  Plans are to daysail Charlotte Harbor, do occasional overnights to barrier islands and maybe once a year get down to the Keys.

We looked at a Precision 27 and for cruises it would be great, as long as you don't have to scurry to the bow quickly.  You could barely get out of the cockpit without snaking your body around something.  I really liked the boat but if you ever had to get out of the cockpit...

We also looked at a Catalina 27.  Great for getting about topside, great condition outside but below it was cramped.  My SO had no place to sleep that didn't require bent legs.

I'm lost as to what other boats to look at next.  Any ideas?

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29 minutes ago, 'Bacco said:

Catalina 30. 

This will be the best bang for your buck

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Santana 35.  I got one for 11k 15 years ago lots of room decent boat 

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Tartan 30, or 34.  Two S&S classics.  30 draws 5', 34 draws less with keel centerboard.  Both well built, and not expensive now. 

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3 minutes ago, BOKSAROX said:

Tartan 30, or 34.  Two S&S classics.  30 draws 5', 34 draws less with keel centerboard.  Both well built, and not expensive now. 

+1000.  Both great boats that were built well and sail well.  A Catalina 30 has no soul.  I would opt for the 34 and enjoy owning a classic. 

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I see j30s in that $ range.  Not sure of ideal draft in your water but sounds like a concern. I like boats like Js and Catalina’s with active owner groups they provide great resources when you have questions.  The hunt is part of the fun.  Take your time and Let us know what you end up with.   

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Just now, Barnacle Balls said:

this.

or even a 27 and have some extra beer $

Grew up on Lake Erie and sailed on the 27 as well.  Another great boat.  The OP should find a shorter SO and get a boat that sails first and is a camper second.  

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S2 7.9 once again should make the short list.  Ramp launchable if you can store mast up.  Retractable daggerboard.  Huge quarter berth for the SO.  And will sail circles around anything mentioned so far.  

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17 hours ago, Jules said:

I ain't gettin' any younger but $15K is about all I can come up with now if I want to finally own that boat I've been dreaming about forever.  Plans are to daysail Charlotte Harbor, do occasional overnights to barrier islands and maybe once a year get down to the Keys.

We looked at a Precision 27 and for cruises it would be great, as long as you don't have to scurry to the bow quickly.  You could barely get out of the cockpit without snaking your body around something.  I really liked the boat but if you ever had to get out of the cockpit...

We also looked at a Catalina 27.  Great for getting about topside, great condition outside but below it was cramped.  My SO had no place to sleep that didn't require bent legs.

I'm lost as to what other boats to look at next.  Any ideas?

$15K will get you a very nice C&C 30 with cash left over. This boat can do any number of missions including crossing an ocean or going out for lunch.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1977/c-c-30-3221981/?refSource=standard

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Thank you!  The searches I've done have come up with a lot of boats but most, outside of better known brands like Tartan, I know little about.   

On the draft, most here say if you want to sail Charlotte Harbor year round, keep the draft as shallow as possible.  The canal we're on is one of the deepest around but right at our dock, about where the keel might be, it's gotten as shallow as 4', that we've measured and other than when depth is affected by storms.  A neighbor across the street has a Passport 42 with a 6-6 draft and at least half the time I can see the mast leaning.

Whatever it is it can't be a project boat.  I've been working with my hands over 40 years now and my body is a bit worn out.  If I have to work on the boat I'd rather it be trimming the sails.

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I would just be patient for a well-loved, well priced (for the right buyer who will also love it), excellent example of a "something-or-other 30ish footer".   Less about year/size and more about motivation of our rapidly aging sailing demographic that own these boats.   I knew a nicely maintained boat given away, but only to an new owner who would take care of it.  

Patience is your friend.  Its a buyer's market...

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34 minutes ago, sail69 said:

I would just be patient for a well-loved, well priced (for the right buyer who will also love it), excellent example of a "something-or-other 30ish footer".   Less about year/size and more about motivation of our rapidly aging sailing demographic that own these boats.   I knew a nicely maintained boat given away, but only to an new owner who would take care of it.  

Exactly.  I had a mid-80s Pearson 28-2 that would fit your requirements with the shoal draft keel (and they are popular near you and in your price range).  I had multiple interested buyers for mine (which I think was very well cared for) and picked someone who I thought would take good care of it.  I didn't want to watch it rot like another sailboat that I used to own.

Pearson 28-2 had nice side decks for a cruiser, sailed well, good interior for 6' and shorter, but berths are a little short if you are taller than that.  I often had 2 couples or 3 or 4 total friends cruising on it.  I'd probably have kept it if it were built a little more for speed (for my needs a 1' deeper keel and 4' taller mast would have been great).  They came stock with nice cruising features like cabin heat, a shower (which I never used) and a hot water heater.

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All excellent suggestions from above.  A few (probably obvious) things to consider.  First is for the size you are looking at you are talking paying 10 cents on the dollar of what a new boat would cost so it is definitely helpful to make sure your expectations meet reality, i.e. don't expect to get the new swan in perfect condition for pennies on the dollar.  Secondly given your tight budget, the boat will need to be semi local as finding something in the northeast or PNW if it had to be trucked would cost a huge part of that budget.  In doing a quick look at YW in Florida, there are not a ton of choices in that range and even fewer when a project boat is out.  I think the wisest comment here is take your time as it may take a bit of time to find the boat you want, semi locally, at a price you can afford. Also it may be of benefit to have the boat surveyed, but take heed in the comment about buying at the price point you are looking at and have "reasonable" expectations.  The good news is boat shopping is mostly free and part of the fun of the process.  Good luck and feel free to report back on your findings.

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2 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

S2 7.9 once again should make the short list.  Ramp launchable if you can store mast up.  Retractable daggerboard.  Huge quarter berth for the SO.  And will sail circles around anything mentioned so far.  

Slight edit to above post, having owned a 7.9 in the past I would second this recommendation.  Although declining in numbers recently, there used to be a nice fleet of boats in Punta Gorda. There was a reason for that (draft issues-none, sails well, good built quality, etc) plus the added bonus if you have a sufficient tow vehicle the keys are a few hrs away not days (plural).  Remember every boat is a compromise, so you may not get all the things on your wish list, but I think you will get many.

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3 hours ago, Cal20sailor said:

S2 7.9 once again should make the short list.  Ramp launchable if you can store mast up.  Retractable daggerboard.  Huge quarter berth for the SO.  And will sail circles around anything mentioned so far.  

If he thought the Catalina 27 was cramped, i'm not sure the 7.9 is the boat for him.  I can say this with authority having grown up on a C27 and now own a 7.9 of my own.

I'd say Pearson 30, Tartan 30 or Catalina 30 should be on the short list(or anything else that had more than a few hundred made ).  There is strength in numbers for peer-to-peer tech support.  Stay away from the One-off 30s for a first boat.

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5 hours ago, Looper said:

If he thought the Catalina 27 was cramped, i'm not sure the 7.9 is the boat for him.  I can say this with authority having grown up on a C27 and now own a 7.9 of my own.

I'd say Pearson 30, Tartan 30 or Catalina 30 should be on the short list(or anything else that had more than a few hundred made ).  There is strength in numbers for peer-to-peer tech support.  Stay away from the One-off 30s for a first boat.

The quarter berth on the 7.9 is huge.  Overall cabin volume, you are right.  I'd say buy a J22 because it's a joy to sail and buy a hotel in KW.  Or J27 if you can find one.  For some reason, the 29 doesn't get me excited for daysailing.  

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I have a really nice 81' S2 9.2a I will sell you for 15K...new UK X-Drive sails...ready 2 sail. I been sailing it for the past 8 years...Steel cradle, all fresh water...4 oversize self tailing winches in the cockpit...refrigeration in ice box works great. Was keeping but I bought a S2 11.0  on a sweet deal and it wouldn't hurt my bank account to let the old boat go easy. New VHF with GPS and AIS and RAM mic. Old sails in good shape. Solid boat that has lots of life in her with a couple tweaks, nothing major just stuff I had planned...overall its good+ - Stellar interior...Awesome stereo with two zones. See has been on Lake Michigan from the get go. It was raced back in the day and has spinnaker gear and rigging if that trips your trigg.  Roller furling...too...

hmmm 5.5' draft I believe...might be a tad too deep...

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Be patient and look for sale by owner on Craig’s List and other local options. Last year we picked up a loaded 1979 C&C 36 with never used sails etc for 15k. Guy had a new boat and needed to move it but was very proud of her and even though she was priced below market he wanted to ensure she was going to go to someone that would take care of her. I contact him routinely for history and he has been an awesome resource. Good luck! 

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On 2/25/2019 at 1:33 PM, ryley said:

A little higher in your price range, but sails well, draws 3' w/board up, and this one is well loved and taken care of. Make him an offer he can't refuse.

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1969/pearson-wanderer-30-3472024/

 

That is the best example of a Wanderer I have ever seen.  Much upgraded from the original. But I wonder if those pictures are recent; that boat looks pretty shiny and spiffy for a boat refitted in 2003.  Not sure what the winds are like in Charlotte Harbor, but the Wanderer is a heavy boat and not known as a good light air performer.

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1 hour ago, Hukilau said:

That is the best example of a Wanderer I have ever seen.  Much upgraded from the original. But I wonder if those pictures are recent; that boat looks pretty shiny and spiffy for a boat refitted in 2003.  Not sure what the winds are like in Charlotte Harbor, but the Wanderer is a heavy boat and not known as a good light air performer.

we did pretty darn well in one in all wind conditions. but.. you are surely right that there are other boats that will outperform it. Still, as an all around performer, the Wanderer is still one of my favorite boats that I raced on, and by far the best boat my parents owned when I was growing up.

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On 2/24/2019 at 9:57 PM, Jules said:

I ain't gettin' any younger but $15K is about all I can come up with now if I want to finally own that boat I've been dreaming about forever.  Plans are to daysail Charlotte Harbor, do occasional overnights to barrier islands and maybe once a year get down to the Keys.

We looked at a Precision 27 and for cruises it would be great, as long as you don't have to scurry to the bow quickly.  You could barely get out of the cockpit without snaking your body around something.  I really liked the boat but if you ever had to get out of the cockpit...

We also looked at a Catalina 27.  Great for getting about topside, great condition outside but below it was cramped.  My SO had no place to sleep that didn't require bent legs.

I'm lost as to what other boats to look at next.  Any ideas?

That Precision you looked at has a lousy Bimini/dodger mounting that sure puts all the supports in the way...plus when the “updated” the Starwind 27 design to make the P27, they had to widen the cabintop/ house to maintain headroom over the settees that are “pushed out towards the edges of the hull to create that elbow-roomy euro layout.

 

The earlier Starwind 27 has a more conventional layout with a house/cabintop that is narrower, and so consequently has much wider side decks...it also still has a reasonably sized quarterberth, so the SO shouldn’t need to sleep with bent legs.

 

 

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www.free-boat.com/sailboat/

 

Follow your dreams!  

Don't forget the cost of the "Yacht" is the cheap part. 

Sail Safe. 

 

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On 2/26/2019 at 6:01 PM, Hitchhiker said:

 Just take my money already!!

I may be insulting some here, but I (overly) rebuilt a 1973 Bristol 30 to the same condition.  I sold it soon thereafter after finally tiring of its CCA design characteristics:  immediately wants to heel to 25 degrees in any  breeze, will not go to windward and is narrow and cramped down below.

For fun, and the ability to claw off a lee shore, get a fin keel with a spade rudder (ala the C & C 36 mentioned above).  And don't tell me full keel boats are "safer".   I have logged thousands of ocean miles (and many in gale force conditions) in my fin/spade design.  Never felt anything but safe.

Be patient...something perfect will pop up.

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The SO found an Aloha 32.  Never heard of Aloha.  There's a CS 33 we called the broker on. 

Crash, you nailed it on the Precision 27.  But it's someone else's problem now.  Maybe they are really skinny.

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22 hours ago, Jules said:

The SO found an Aloha 32.  Never heard of Aloha.  There's a CS 33 we called the broker on. 

Crash, you nailed it on the Precision 27.  But it's someone else's problem now.  Maybe they are really skinny.

Both Canadian built boats.  Mark Ellis design on the Aloha, similar looking lines to a Niagara 35.  Both should be well built, but as always the long period from when these boats left the factory until they landed in your back yard is what counts, i.e. care among probably several owners of that time frame.  Good luck and keep us posted.

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Jules - don't underestimate the importance of your - completely enviable - lack of interest in working on the boat.  Condition is EVERYTHING, and 95% of the "good old boats" out there are in shit condition, despite what their brainwashed owners think. 

Don't settle until you've found one that's been genuinely massively overhauled or brilliantly, consistently maintained, or is recently built but cheap for some valid reason (owner moved out of state e.g.).   If it's older than, say, 1985, and hasn't had a total tear-down and rebuild by the last owner, it's probably due.  Unless you and your SO don't mind mildew in every corner, flaking paint chips in your food, gelcoat worn beyond restorability, un-tunable rigging, frozen sheaves and blocks, wiring such a mess that you can't install the new stereo someone gifts you for your "new" boat, peeling carpet headliner that reeks from 45 years of cigarettes and mildew and burnt food, fresh and black water hoses that need replacement...I could go on.  A lot of boats can look pretty good at first, but start poking into lockers and lazarettes and sniffing around, and things quickly unravel. 

$15k will buy you a great daysailer, maybe a weekender (like a lavishly maintained and upgraded Ranger 23), but anything larger is going to need work.

"Nah, that's BS, my buddy's got a great So-and-so 30, recent yanmar, he'll let it go for five grand and you're croozin'!" people will say.  Go for it.  But when the SO says to sell the boat after a night on the hook smelling the faint waft of worn holding tank vent hose and itching from musty old cushions, don't say I didn't warn you!

 

 

edit:  the Aloha 32 would be a great, if slow, couples cruiser -- again if it's in genuinely excellent condition -- and I stand corrected: that Wanderer was a gem, assuming it was indeed in that condition at time of sale, and sold for $15k. But settle for nothing less than a stem-to-sterm rehab like that in a boat of that vintage, or you'll forever be working on it instead of sailing.

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1 hour ago, Steam Flyer said:

Plus, it's pretty.

Not sure how well it will go to windward with the board up, though....... ^_^

FB- Doug

Probably not all that well, but what boats that draw 3.5 feet DO go upwind well? You can always drop the board once you get clear of the shallows. Also note the original engine has been replaced :) Where the OP lives is the perfect environment for these boats and their sisters and they all seemed to go away back in the 70s. The wing keel is IMHO a very poor substitute.

If anyone actually is interested I live close enough to take a look and get photos.

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1 minute ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Probably not all that well, but what boats that draw 3.5 feet DO go upwind well? You can always drop the board once you get clear of the shallows. Also note the original engine has been replaced :) Where the OP lives is the perfect environment for these boats and their sisters and they all seemed to go away back in the 70s. The wing keel is IMHO a very poor substitute.

If anyone actually is interested I live close enough to take a look and get photos.

Leeboards, dude

I dislike wing keels, they're more efficient -IF- very cleverly designed but most production boats don't have the design resources to make good ones. And if you get one for sailing shallow water, it's like mating a danforth anchor to your keel.

But FWIW I agree, the ability to go in shallow water at all is the benefit, having to beat thru water too shallow for the board is evidence of poor planning.

FB- Doug

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Thanks again for the help.  That Tartan is one I missed (but gotta check with the SO who has reached the end of the Internet searching). ;) 

Yesterday we saw that CS 33.  For someone with champagne taste, I was surprised how much I liked it.  And it was close to my beer budget.  Most of my 30 years sailing has been on bigger boats and it's been hard for me to get excited about anything smaller.  I've been that ruined (spoiled).  But I really liked this boat.  Good visibility from the helm, easy access from cockpit to bow, solid glass hull, standing rigging redone by Mack a couple years ago, 4'6" draft (about the max for Charlotte Harbor), and enough headroom below for the SO.  And it has nice lines.

Downside is the present owner knows practically nothing about boats it's been neglected.  Good part of that is he's only owned it for a few months.  He bought it for a cheap apartment. 

One thing screaming at me is the strong diesel smell below, maybe the worst of any boat I've been on.  It has a Buhk DV24 installed in 1989 (no hour meter).  A cursory look didn't show any gasket leaks and I couldn't see any fresh diesel in the bilge below.  The broker said the previous owner brought the boat down from up north and it still had anti-freeze in the bilge when they sold it to the present owner (there was a puddle of clean anti-freeze in a forward section of the bilge).  Back where the stuffing box is I saw what looked like anti-freeze and water mixed, sitting in the bilge.  First thing I'd do is call in a marine mechanic to inspect things then proceed to a survey if things looked good.  Our first trip would be bringing her back through the Okeechobee Waterway, probably 50 or more hours of motoring over several days.

There's a leak at the mast that probably caused the weak floorboards.  It has no mast boot.  One small floorboard was replaced but two of the others only require one big guy to step on them and his foot will end up in the bilge.  The configuration of the mast above deck looks like it's almost impossible to wrap a boot around it.  The main halyard wire exits the mast only inches above the cabin deck.  CS has to have had some way to better seal that than just some sealant.  Presently there's silicone, which experience taught me requires some voodoo magic to completely stop leaks.

It rained pretty hard while we were below and the only leak I saw was at the mast.  There were some stains on the bulkhead at one of the chaiplates and around one of the hatches but no sign of leaks during the cloudburst.  We found no wet cushions, on top or bottom. 

We will probably make an offer today or tomorrow pending engine inspection and then survey if the engine looks good.  Buhk is said to be one of the easiest diesel engines to work on and is supposed to be very reliable.  But 30 years?  Probably needs something more than an oil change.  It's raw water cooled and is supposed to be flushed regularly if kept in salt water.  Maybe the previous owner did that but I doubt the new owner has.  It looks like all he does is sleep there and sip warm beer.  There's no refrigeration. 

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28 minutes ago, Jules said:

Thanks again for the help.  That Tartan is one I missed (but gotta check with the SO who has reached the end of the Internet searching). ;) 

Yesterday we saw that CS 33.  For someone with champagne taste, I was surprised how much I liked it.  And it was close to my beer budget.  Most of my 30 years sailing has been on bigger boats and it's been hard for me to get excited about anything smaller.  I've been that ruined (spoiled).  But I really liked this boat.  Good visibility from the helm, easy access from cockpit to bow, solid glass hull, standing rigging redone by Mack a couple years ago, 4'6" draft (about the max for Charlotte Harbor), and enough headroom below for the SO.  And it has nice lines.

Downside is the present owner knows practically nothing about boats it's been neglected.  Good part of that is he's only owned it for a few months.  He bought it for a cheap apartment. 

One thing screaming at me is the strong diesel smell below, maybe the worst of any boat I've been on.  It has a Buhk DV24 installed in 1989 (no hour meter).  A cursory look didn't show any gasket leaks and I couldn't see any fresh diesel in the bilge below.  The broker said the previous owner brought the boat down from up north and it still had anti-freeze in the bilge when they sold it to the present owner (there was a puddle of clean anti-freeze in a forward section of the bilge).  Back where the stuffing box is I saw what looked like anti-freeze and water mixed, sitting in the bilge.  First thing I'd do is call in a marine mechanic to inspect things then proceed to a survey if things looked good.  Our first trip would be bringing her back through the Okeechobee Waterway, probably 50 or more hours of motoring over several days.

There's a leak at the mast that probably caused the weak floorboards.  It has no mast boot.  One small floorboard was replaced but two of the others only require one big guy to step on them and his foot will end up in the bilge.  The configuration of the mast above deck looks like it's almost impossible to wrap a boot around it.  The main halyard wire exits the mast only inches above the cabin deck.  CS has to have had some way to better seal that than just some sealant.  Presently there's silicone, which experience taught me requires some voodoo magic to completely stop leaks.

It rained pretty hard while we were below and the only leak I saw was at the mast.  There were some stains on the bulkhead at one of the chaiplates and around one of the hatches but no sign of leaks during the cloudburst.  We found no wet cushions, on top or bottom. 

We will probably make an offer today or tomorrow pending engine inspection and then survey if the engine looks good.  Buhk is said to be one of the easiest diesel engines to work on and is supposed to be very reliable.  But 30 years?  Probably needs something more than an oil change.  It's raw water cooled and is supposed to be flushed regularly if kept in salt water.  Maybe the previous owner did that but I doubt the new owner has.  It looks like all he does is sleep there and sip warm beer.  There's no refrigeration. 

 

Check the tank connections to the filter, and the fill connection, and the vent. Diesel smell is horrible, and it doesn't just come from the bilge.  It's one of the main complaints peopl have against diesel engines, and it's partly because diesel fuel is not volatile like gasoline...... it lingers and lingers, and eventually supports microbe growth that smells even worse.

But it all you're getting is fuel smell, it might be coming from an open connection rather than leaks/drips into the bilge.

I like the CS boats, well built and good designs.

FB- Doug

[edit to add] You might look into the cost to just replace the fuel system piping/tubing. The tubing is not cheap, the main problem is going to be access to all the nooks & crannies it runs in.

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Pics from the "engine room".  Does that fuel tank look like it's aluminum?

CS33_002.jpg.2bc0cca454724d238072adba0789c924.jpg

And what was that hose for?

CS33_001.jpg.43a90e016a6b3cfc0f570a67cf112283.jpg

The seawater/oil mix mentioned above

CS33_003.jpg.660d3644221987aaf6fa8211234951e6.jpg

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Fuel Tank:  Maybe aluminum, but given rust on it, and coating bilge under it, I'd guess steel...

Errant Hose: Cooling hose of some kind?  Maybe an old hose to the impeller?  Too big to be a fuel line...

Motor mount in the bottom left corner of the pic of the unknown hose looks shot...guessing that is the port side forward motor mount.  Guessing PO had a leaky impeller/housing/hose connection that leaked on it for some time.  Aft one on same side looks better. 

If diesel smell is in the soft fabrics in the cabin (cushion covers, etc) it can be very tough to get rid off.  Might mean new cushions/covers...

Thought you didn't want a project? :P

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I watched this video of an inspection. Couple of issues, companionway hatch and some deep crazing at the mast and port aft.

 

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The second video inside shows the waste tank under the vee berth smelling it up, the y valve frozen, a plastic thru hull for the propane drain that could be submerged. A leak in from the antisiphon onto an electrical component, a difficult gland to get access and some massive chain plate brackets to transfer the load to the bulkhead. Makes me wonder if the 3/4 in bulkhead is the weak link with lateral flex. Always interesting to look this close at a boat. The third video shows some dodgy repair at the keel hull joint, that can't be from the yard.

 

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4 hours ago, Crash said:

Thought you didn't want a project? :P

For what I want and how much I have to spend, a project was inevitable.  Truth be told, if I don't have a project to work on, I'm bouncing off walls.  I just like to convince myself I'll end up sailing more than fixing up the boat.  And often it works!  

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4 hours ago, Norse Horse said:

I watched this video of an inspection. Couple of issues, companionway hatch and some deep crazing at the mast and port aft.

When he's doing the tap test and comments on the hollow sound, does that mean the fiberglass has delaminated from the balsa core?

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1 hour ago, Jules said:

When he's doing the tap test and comments on the hollow sound, does that mean the fiberglass has delaminated from the balsa core?

Yes or balsa has turned to moosh. Rebedding hardware and windows seem like the last thing peeple are willing to spend money or their time on.

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