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Defy

F24 mk1 rudder question

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Anyone ever see a f24 rudder like this?

The newer designs are different and I would assume because this design did not work.  Any thoughts on it?  

 

05500F98-8FD1-4017-9CE1-9212E601FA21.jpeg

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Thanks,

 

does it rotate up? Or do you have to pull down to take it off once it’s on a trailer?

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Got one on mine. Swings up for trailering. It will tends to cavitate at high speeds, if you push it which I experienced once. Maybe that’s why the redesigned them. Other than that it’s fine.

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14 hours ago, Jimmycrab said:

Got one on mine. Swings up for trailering. It will tends to cavitate at high speeds, if you push it which I experienced once. Maybe that’s why the redesigned them. Other than that it’s fine.

It actually just ventilates (air sucked in from above) or sailplan stalls instead of rudder cavitate (water boils at the rudder surface due to low pressure)...but same result, you can't steer unless you do something with something other than the rudder.  Yah, I know, I'm nitpicky, sorry;;;just like to call things by the right name.

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Thanks,  I am not a super speed freak 9-10 knots is plenty with the kids.  I am more interested shallow water/beach ability of the tris.  Saw a few MK1s that might fit the bill (if the price is right.  But that was the first time I saw the rear rudder on one.  

 

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There is an active Fboat forum at https://fct.groups.io/g/main/topics    Lots of expertise there and lots of postings by Ian Farrier himself before his untimely death.

Also there's a specific F24 forum on the same host site: Groups.io or some such.  Don't have a link for that.

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As someone who has sailed an F24 a fair amount, I really like the lockup suffer and centerboard. The MK1 is slower then the 2, but it is more idiot resistant. 

Great boat all around. 

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Thanks, it will all depend on the deal.  I want one that my family can enjoy for 5-6 years to see if we like it enough to drop 100k on a new one.

 

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7 hours ago, Defy said:

Thanks, it will all depend on the deal.  I want one that my family can enjoy for 5-6 years to see if we like it enough to drop 100k on a new one.

 

I went through a couple used Corsairs in short order, spent quite a bit of money getting them right and finally bought a new 760.  The used Corsairs held their value well and based on that I felt the investment in the new boat was worth it.  Especially the performance and ease of set-up on the new boat is so much better than any of the old boats.  If I were to do it over again - I would go right to the new Corsair.

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13 hours ago, free2speed said:

  Especially the performance and ease of set-up on the new boat is so much better than any of the old boats.  

Please elaborate on what changes have been made on new Corsairs and how those changes improved performance and ease of setup. 

Thanks 

 

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6 minutes ago, lakepee said:

Please elaborate on what changes have been made on new Corsairs and how those changes improved performance and ease of setup. 

Thanks 

 

From my research -  lighter materials, more aggressive/bigger sail plans, bigger floats, from the Mk1 to the Mk2 and beyond the rotating mast is a big one but I think the fixed mast is easier to set up.  

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13 hours ago, free2speed said:

I went through a couple used Corsairs in short order, spent quite a bit of money getting them right and finally bought a new 760.  The used Corsairs held their value well and based on that I felt the investment in the new boat was worth it.  Especially the performance and ease of set-up on the new boat is so much better than any of the old boats.  If I were to do it over again - I would go right to the new Corsair.

Yeah, I am not sure the family is going to really dig sailing on the bigger boat.  This is really just testing the waters.  I have paddleboards, kayaks, and a Hobie TI right now so we really only go out in swimming weather and the kids are more interested in getting to the beach (5 and 7) than sailing.  My thoughts with starting with a 20-30k one is to play around in the Chesapeake (its across the street from me) and maybe do some camping.  But realistically I don't know how they will take to a bigger boat.  They might love it and we will be out in the afternoons and every weekend on it or it might be a fight to get  them out on it once a month.  20-30k is easier to swallow for that.  Plus i have 6 years till I retire and big water might not be in the cards, so i might be back to Hobies.

I think I have found a Mk1 I like that is clean, just need to shore up a storage spot and get a survey done.      

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15 minutes ago, lakepee said:

Please elaborate on what changes have been made on new Corsairs and how those changes improved performance and ease of setup. 

Thanks 

 

Too many small improvements to list them all but a couple that stand out.  The gin pole fits in the boom pivot hole and the stepping plate is this tiny piece that fits in the tool box. The tiller and cassette is a one piece molded carbon affair that weighs nothing and works without any slop.  I had nothing but troubles with the MKI and the MKII rudder assemblies. The new beams have a way better profile and the whole boat folds effortlessly.  The wider beams are also more comfortable to walk and sit on.  The nets are direct laced with spectra and don't squeak. None of those stupid washers to break either. The 760 is a lot roomier inside with the elevated deck profile. The flangeless reverse bow floats move through the water with no turbulence or spray.  It's indescribable how the floats slice through the water like a porpoise with laminar flow over the top when submerged. I regularly sail the boat at 14 knts without a care. In light wind, with the screecher nothing can touch it. When I go to sell it in a couple years and move up to the new 880, I will probably get a pretty good price as well. 

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8 minutes ago, Defy said:

From my research -  lighter materials, more aggressive/bigger sail plans, bigger floats, from the Mk1 to the Mk2 and beyond the rotating mast is a big one but I think the fixed mast is easier to set up.  

Which materials are lighter? The gel coat? The foam core? The single layer of glass fiber per skin that constitutes the majority of the skin area? Vinyester resin? The aluminum in the folding system? Interior molded liners?

Bigger floats are heavier than smaller floats.

What about easier setup? The older non rotating mast were easier to setup? I don't buy it, rotating rigs are very easy to step with much less fussy rig tuning once it's up .

 

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8 minutes ago, lakepee said:

Which materials are lighter? The gel coat? The foam core? The single layer of glass fiber per skin that constitutes the majority of the skin area? Vinyester resin? The aluminum in the folding system? Interior molded liners?

Bigger floats are heavier than smaller floats.

What about easier setup? The older non rotating mast were easier to setup? I don't buy it, rotating rigs are very easy to step with much less fussy rig tuning once it's up .

 

Truth in lending, I am a noob and don't own a Corsair yet, I have just read Mk1s are heavy and overbuilt "Too many features were added, and what was intended to be a low cost simple entry level boat became too complex, overweight, and impossible to build at a profit." from Ian commenting on an Mk1.  

As for the bigger floats that was more in the improvement not necessarily weight part of your question.  

Mast - just seems to make sense for a fixed mast to be easier to setup, less moving parts/angles when raising, less to trim and tune (as it doesn't move), and less performance due to the less tuning.

Just my thoughts, I am by no means an expert but I have read a lot =) 

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Ok back on the Mk1 rudder, how much control do you have without the centerboard?  ie in shallow water?  Do you kick up the rudder and centerboard and just use the motor?

Very shallow at low tide by my house 1-2 foot if you stray out of the channel.  Right now i don't have to pay attention to the tides as much as my Hobie drafts next to nothing, but I have forgot to un-cleat my rudder a few times and sheared a pin coming in too fast.  

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One of the potential major issues in a MK 1 (and I agree it is a really nice boat for a family camper/cruiser) is that the lack of a daggerboard made them reinforce the "tunnel" to support the mast loading (with a daggerboard like the MK II, the loads are straight down along the centerboard trunk).  On a few (very few) MK1s, that tunnel got damaged (repetitive stresses) and essentially made the boat worthless without extensive rebuilding.  Just saying, before pulling the trigger, take the time to remove the mouse fur and inspect that tunnel on both sides--or hire a surveyor.  I'm not saying that's a bad design...newer designs (like my SeaRail) use a tunnel reinforcement since the daggerboard is aft in the cockpit.

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13 hours ago, MultiThom said:

One of the potential major issues in a MK 1 (and I agree it is a really nice boat for a family camper/cruiser) is that the lack of a daggerboard made them reinforce the "tunnel" to support the mast loading (with a daggerboard like the MK II, the loads are straight down along the centerboard trunk).  On a few (very few) MK1s, that tunnel got damaged (repetitive stresses) and essentially made the boat worthless without extensive rebuilding.  Just saying, before pulling the trigger, take the time to remove the mouse fur and inspect that tunnel on both sides--or hire a surveyor.  I'm not saying that's a bad design...newer designs (like my SeaRail) use a tunnel reinforcement since the daggerboard is aft in the cockpit.

Is this what Ian was talking about in his used boat guide? 

 

"No real problems, but one structural aspect to check is that the aft beam bulkhead is taped
properly to the hull on each side. I intended to introduce a more advanced monocoque
structure with the 24, but Corsair decided to stick with my older F-27 system, and sneaked it
in when I was out of the country for a while. This works fine with aft cabin boats, but is
heavier and more complex than it could be. Coupling it with a small boat aft cockpit
configuration such as the F-24 also made the aft beam bulkhead area very difficult for the
laminators to get to, and thus taping quality suffers. Not a serious problem if noticed early -
just awkward to get to and fix."

 

 

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No, the aft beam isn't under the mast.  Basically, the tunnel I'm talking about is inside the cabin and right under the mast base. 

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tunnel=ring frame?  As an experienced f-24 guy I wanted to ask Multithom at what windspeed would you reef an F-24 assuming you're sailing for pleasure and not racing?  thanks

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32 minutes ago, mundt said:

tunnel=ring frame?  As an experienced f-24 guy I wanted to ask Multithom at what windspeed would you reef an F-24 assuming you're sailing for pleasure and not racing?  thanks

I sailed/raced an F242.  I reefed 6 or 7  times in the 12 years I sailed the boat (over 7000 miles).  The windspeeds at which I reefed were all above 30 and gusts to 40.   The F242 is underpowered so it is safe (with experienced skipper) without reefing to those windspeeds.  However, if you have passengers (not crew), you probably won't be out in winds above 25 unless a squall comes out of nowhere.  It is easy to reef with the jiffy reef system, but honestly, the passengers won't feel safer reefed or not when the water has whitecaps everywhere.  True story, my last sail with the boat was with the prospective owners and it was one of the times I reefed...was a real nasty day and we were going downwind at 16 kts with just jib and main.  I decided to reef to go back to weather and we were still hitting 12 upwind.  Never did get to fly the spinnaker for him.  

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thanks for the excellent info.  I had some experience with a ring frame on a Reynolds 33. I went inside to grab a snack and noticed that the ring frame under main beam was loose and wiggling around.  We were mid-channel during a race to Catalina.  Very experienced skipper and crew, we watched it for a few minutes and decided to go back home before the hull folded up.  Problem was corrected and never happened again but I'd guess that without a very strong ring inside a tube (especially in a loaded area near beams or mast) the tube would fold up pretty darn quick.

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22 hours ago, Defy said:

Ok back on the Mk1 rudder, how much control do you have without the centerboard?  ie in shallow water?  Do you kick up the rudder and centerboard and just use the motor?

Very shallow at low tide by my house 1-2 foot if you stray out of the channel.  Right now i don't have to pay attention to the tides as much as my Hobie drafts next to nothing, but I have forgot to un-cleat my rudder a few times and sheared a pin coming in too fast.  

I have a similar situation at my buddies dock, very shallow. I’m able to motor out with rudder up or even half way down. I’m also on the Chesapeake and it’s a great little boat for cruising with the family and beaching. I plan on keeping this for a couple more years a eventually move up in size. Another good thing about these boats are so easy to solo sail. Good luck on the search.

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Thanks again for everyone's info.  Last question anyone know of a boat surveyor in Charlotte, NC area that know about Corsairs?  I would like to make an offer on one but won't make it down there to look at it for a few months.    

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15 hours ago, Defy said:

Thanks again for everyone's info.  Last question anyone know of a boat surveyor in Charlotte, NC area that know about Corsairs?  I would like to make an offer on one but won't make it down there to look at it for a few months.    

Call the finish line (corsair dealer in FL), they might recommend a surveyor.  

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are we mixing up MK1 F24's and MK1 Corsairs in this thread?

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1 hour ago, Sailabout said:

are we mixing up MK1 F24's and MK1 Corsairs in this thread?

There were some F242 questions but it started with F241 question about a rudder.  As far as I know, though, there's no difference between F24 mK 1 and Corsair 24 Mk 1.  Ian was affiliated with Corsair during the release of the MK 1 and for a while during the production of the Mk II.  

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On 3/4/2019 at 7:21 PM, Defy said:

Ok back on the Mk1 rudder, how much control do you have without the centerboard?  ie in shallow water?  Do you kick up the rudder and centerboard and just use the motor?

Very shallow at low tide by my house 1-2 foot if you stray out of the channel.  Right now i don't have to pay attention to the tides as much as my Hobie drafts next to nothing, but I have forgot to un-cleat my rudder a few times and sheared a pin coming in too fast.  

I have sailed without the centerboard down  accidentally a few times and it works but upwind is super weird feeling. Not good veg, but off the wind would be ok. You’d have to practice to see what your maneuverability was. 

I have motored without the board or rudder, you can navigate water as shallow as you feel safe not plugging your outboard with mud, maybe 2’. 

I often motor with the board down and with the rudder up, you can spin the boat around on the board, very maneuverable. 

Its a little hard to get the board half down but I imagine you could have it a little down and that would improve steering but still be shallow. 

Both the rudder and the board can hit mud and pop up without damage, though you have to be careful not to hit them backing up, that would be bad. 

The manual says to never try to sail or motor without the board down, and it does sidesilp a lot without the board, but as I say, you can do it if you understand what it does and can anticipate the lack of control. If you use the outboard you can spin the boat even without the board, though I imagine in a strong side wind you could get in trouble. 

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Thanks,  I did buy an MK1 and have to say we love it.  High tech enough to keep me interested and simple enough so the family can enjoy it.  

I only drop my centerboard fully down in 10ft or more water.  But I have quickly found out that it really doesn't matter too much for the centerboard because the jam cleat is so worn out it will come up on it's own so i bet if i touch with it down it would just uncleat itself.  I have a new cleat but will wait till I am better aquainted with my channels =) 

When I am shallow and feel like i need the board (docking!!! in 4 feet) I put a black sharpie line with the board about 1/3 down.  I can pull to that and quickly glance at the cleat on the bulkhead and see if it has moved.  

As for the rudder yeah, i hate the rudder setup on the MK1s.  I am in talks with ruddercraft on getting a plug made so I can put a real kickup rudder in (the picture is what I am going for).  I found out last weekend when the rudder kicks up it rips the tiller out of your hand (never did that on my hobie!) also if the rudder is turned it can't kick up.  I was getting off the beach and at about 50 yards away from the beach depth said 3 feet.  Ok, rudder down, turn to get away from other boats, and boom 1 foot and the rudder kicked up.  Not a big deal, but I had no control, lucky at 1 foot the motor is not touching so I just grabbed the throttle and we were off to deeper water.  

Still learning a ton.  Last weekend was our first 100% smooth dock, the trick is to drive past the slip and then back it in.  The couple of docks before that evolved frantic jumps and some black rubber dock rash (nothing hurt just ego burns).   

 

 

piccorsair24mk1100d.jpg

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