Blue Crab

Would we go to war over Israel?

Would we go to war over Israel?  

15 members have voted

This poll is closed to new votes
  1. 1. Would we go to war over Israel?

    • No. No more boots on the ground in the ME.
      7
    • Yes ... but
      8

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  • Poll closed on 03/08/2019 at 06:29 AM

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

You've made a mistake very typical for people who have spent all but no time there, confused "Arab" with "Muslim"

What do you call a Christian in Israel? "An Arab." 

Hold up ... You're saying that Israeli Arabs are all  Christians? Really?

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26 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Hold up ... You're saying that Israeli Arabs are all  Christians? Really?

Nah. He's saying if you're not an Israeli  you don't count. 

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30 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Hold up ... You're saying that Israeli Arabs are all  Christians? Really?

nah..half of them are Jewish :D

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1 hour ago, Shortforbob said:

nah..half of them are Jewish :D

Which half are being genocided?

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

Hold up ... You're saying that Israeli Arabs are all  Christians? Really?

  Are you saying there are no Christians in Israel? Really?? 

 

 

 

 

 Two can play at this game. 

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53 minutes ago, Mark K said:

  Are you saying there are no Christians in Israel? Really?? 

 

 

 

 

 Two can play at this game. 

Your certainly not allowed to be Atheist. agnostic or lapsed anything..no civil marriage in Israel.

 

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6 hours ago, Mark K said:

  Are you saying there are no Christians in Israel? Really?? 

 

 

 

 

 Two can play at this game. 

There are Israeli Christians. But there are a lot more Israeli Muslims. I'm not sure where you came up with that silly thing, but please be careful, Meli apparently believes everything she reads.

Now any thoughts as to why Israel doesn't recognize any moderate religions?

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5 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

Your certainly not allowed to be Atheist. agnostic or lapsed anything..no civil marriage in Israel.

 

Most Israelis are irreligious. There is no civil marriage there for a reason which I'm trying to get Mark to explore. You have no idea what you're writing about. Maybe stick to 1970s British punk rock?

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On 3/13/2019 at 6:29 AM, Mohammed Bin Lyin said:

Muslims actually believe in flying donkeys along with talking trees and rocks.

There will never be peace in that area until people start debunking the Islam delusion which is protected with blasphemy laws

Out of fairness....... don't Christians also believe in dudes who walk on water, talking fishes, talking bushes and such?  

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8 hours ago, mikewof said:

There are Israeli Christians. But there are a lot more Israeli Muslims. I'm not sure where you came up with that silly thing, but please be careful, Meli apparently believes everything she reads.

Now any thoughts as to why Israel doesn't recognize any moderate religions?

Why doesn't the State of Israel recognize interfaith marriages? 

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5 hours ago, Mark K said:

Why doesn't the State of Israel recognize interfaith marriages? 

They do.

They don't recognize the religions to produce interfaith marriages. And therein lies the tale ...

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First sentence: "Marriages in Israel can be performed only under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, and no religious intermarriages can be performed legally in Israel."

Down page: "The Israeli Interior Ministry registers marriages on presentation of proper documentation. Israel’s religious authorities — the only entities authorized to perform weddings in Israel — are prohibited from marrying couples unless both partners share the same religion. Therefore, interfaith couples can be legally married in Israel only if one of the partners converts to the religion of the other. However, civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages entered into abroad are recognized by the state."

 

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2 hours ago, Term Limits! said:

First sentence: "Marriages in Israel can be performed only under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, and no religious intermarriages can be performed legally in Israel."

Down page: "The Israeli Interior Ministry registers marriages on presentation of proper documentation. Israel’s religious authorities — the only entities authorized to perform weddings in Israel — are prohibited from marrying couples unless both partners share the same religion. Therefore, interfaith couples can be legally married in Israel only if one of the partners converts to the religion of the other. However, civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages entered into abroad are recognized by the state."

 

Right, so Israel recognizes the marriages, but they don't recognize any moderate religions to perform the gay, interfaith or civil marriages. 

About half of Israel's population describes themselves as secular, so what's the possible agenda behind that? 

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3 hours ago, mikewof said:

Right, so Israel recognizes the marriages, but they don't recognize any moderate religions to perform the gay, interfaith or civil marriages. 

About half of Israel's population describes themselves as secular, so what's the possible agenda behind that? 

Why doesn't Israel permit interfaith marriages to happen in Israel? 

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12 hours ago, Mark K said:

Why doesn't Israel permit interfaith marriages to happen in Israel? 

Verbiage is important, huh? But now we're getting somewhere ...

I'll answer your question, but I have been asking a question of your for a while, I think I get my answer first ...

Israel has delegated marriage to their religious institutions, and they don't recognize any moderate religions that would allow such marriages. Why do you think Israel doesn't recognize any moderate religions? If you can answer my question, then you'll answer your question ... another way of asking my question, why doesn't Israel permit moderate religion to contribute to law, but they allow extremists to contribute to law in Israel?

It's a bizarre question, huh Mark? There is this country, a beacon in the Middle East, where interracial love, interfaith love, homosexual love and transgender love happen openly, and with little fear of repercussion and even recognized by the state! And yet, they give no mechanism for these love-affairs to turn to marriages. Huh?

Could it be Mark, that the goal of this policy has nothing to do with marriage, and in fact marriage is just an unfortunate side-effect of a larger policy? Find that policy and you might find your answer.

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12 hours ago, mikewof said:

Verbiage is important, huh? But now we're getting somewhere ...

I'll answer your question, but I have been asking a question of your for a while, I think I get my answer first ...

Israel has delegated marriage to their religious institutions, and they don't recognize any moderate religions that would allow such marriages. Why do you think Israel doesn't recognize any moderate religions? If you can answer my question, then you'll answer your question ... another way of asking my question, why doesn't Israel permit moderate religion to contribute to law, but they allow extremists to contribute to law in Israel?

It's a bizarre question, huh Mark? There is this country, a beacon in the Middle East, where interracial love, interfaith love, homosexual love and transgender love happen openly, and with little fear of repercussion and even recognized by the state! And yet, they give no mechanism for these love-affairs to turn to marriages. Huh?

Could it be Mark, that the goal of this policy has nothing to do with marriage, and in fact marriage is just an unfortunate side-effect of a larger policy? Find that policy and you might find your answer.

Why doesn't Israel permit interfaith marriages to happen in Israel? Are you saying it's "just one of those things"? 

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

Why doesn't Israel permit interfaith marriages to happen in Israel? Are you saying it's "just one of those things"? 

I'm not saying it's "one of those things."

You're looking at the marriage thing, but you're ignoring the conditions that create the marriage thing.

How can it make sense to you? Israel is a very new country, perhaps the only country to have been formed at it's base on collectivism. Unlike much of the rest of the Middle East, Israel has no problem in recognizing the rights of people in interfaith, homosexual, transgender or interracial relationships, homosexuals from  And yet, they don't recognize any moderate religions, not a single one ...

All the strict schisms of Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, the classical B'hai, Druze, Samaritanism, Islam. But where are the reformed religions like Quaker, Reform Judaism, Sufism? These, among others, are religions that would preform interfaith and homosexual marriages, they've been around longer than Israel Israel, and yet, Israel doesn't recognize them. Why?

And yet, Israel is one of the most irreligious countries. It's even a more secular setup in key ways than the USA.

How does any of this make sense to you? Israel was formed from square one with deep social safety nets that are far beyond places like the USA and Britain. Gay couples don't even need marriage in Israel to share their wealth, inheritance, their rights and their children. Why would they disenfranchise anyone through marriage?

Maybe try to change your mindset, and you'll see the reason. Israel welcomed LGBT soldiers (including women) to the military about thirty years ago, even back when homosexuality was legally a reason for deportation from countries like Australia. Tel Aviv is the main asylum destination for LGBT people across the Middle East, even from countries where gay men can are are still executed for being gay.

Do you see any logical reasons at all for these contradictions?

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13 minutes ago, mikewof said:

I'm not saying it's "one of those things."

You're looking at the marriage thing, but you're ignoring the conditions that create the marriage thing.

How can it make sense to you? Israel is a very new country, perhaps the only country to have been formed at it's base on collectivism. Unlike much of the rest of the Middle East, Israel has no problem in recognizing the rights of people in interfaith, homosexual, transgender or interracial relationships, homosexuals from  And yet, they don't recognize any moderate religions, not a single one ...

All the strict schisms of Christianity, Orthodox Judaism, the classical B'hai, Druze, Samaritanism, Islam. But where are the reformed religions like Quaker, Reform Judaism, Sufism? These, among others, are religions that would preform interfaith and homosexual marriages, they've been around longer than Israel Israel, and yet, Israel doesn't recognize them. Why?

And yet, Israel is one of the most irreligious countries. It's even a more secular setup in key ways than the USA.

How does any of this make sense to you? Israel was formed from square one with deep social safety nets that are far beyond places like the USA and Britain. Gay couples don't even need marriage in Israel to share their wealth, inheritance, their rights and their children. Why would they disenfranchise anyone through marriage?

Maybe try to change your mindset, and you'll see the reason. Israel welcomed LGBT soldiers (including women) to the military about thirty years ago, even back when homosexuality was legally a reason for deportation from countries like Australia. Tel Aviv is the main asylum destination for LGBT people across the Middle East, even from countries where gay men can are are still executed for being gay.

Do you see any logical reasons at all for these contradictions?

What's the logic in the government of Israel not recognizing a marriage between a Jew and an "Arab" of any of those faiths?  What other "secular" country behaves like that? 

 

 

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

What's the logic in the government of Israel not recognizing a marriage between a Jew and an "Arab" of any of those faiths?  What other "secular" country behaves like that? 

Again, it seems that marriage thing is a byproduct of a larger, overriding idea.

Since you still refuse to answer my question before asking me yet another one of your own questions, I'll repose my question to you with to the larger reality on the ground in Israel ... What's the logic in the government of Israel not recognizing moderate religions that will perform a marriage between a Jew and an "Arab" of any of those faiths?

Are you willing to answer now?

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I could take a guess. 

Because on the one hand, Israel needs every able body they can get.

On the other they do not wish to dilute the "purity"  if their population.

and advocate for the institution of civil marriage in Israel. Former president of the Israeli Supreme Court, Aharon Barak, argues that the right to marry and build a family is a fundamental human right and is essential to human dignity. But many religious Zionist leaders and most if not all ultra-Orthodox Israelis, including the ultra-Orthodox political parties United Torah Judaism and Shas, disagree.

They argue that maintaining the rabbinate’s exclusive control over issues of personal status, particularly marriage and divorce, is an essential part of maintaining Israel’s character as a Jewish state. Practically, they also worry that instituting civil marriage will encourage intermarriage and assimilation within Israel.

The Mamzer Argument

In addition, many religious leaders are concerned that civil marriage and divorce could create a deep rift within Israeli Jewry, by enabling the possibility that many halakhic mamzerim (plural of mamzer) will be born in Israel.

Uri Paz, in an article on the website of Aish ha-Torah, an Orthodox Jewish educational organization, explains that according to Jewish law, civil marriage, although not ideal, still counts as a valid marriage after the fact. Civil divorce, however, does not count as a valid divorce according to Jewish law. Therefore, if a couple were to marry, either in a religious or a civil ceremony, then divorce civilly without getting a religious divorce, and then the woman were to remarry civilly, any children produced in her second marriage would be mamzerim, since Jewish law would consider her still married to her first husband.

By instituting civil marriages and divorces in Israel, the argument goes, the number of mamzerim will rise. Israeli Jews who observe halakhah will not be able to marry growing numbers of Israeli Jews whose parents or grandparents did not.

https://www.myjewishlearning.com/article/civil-marriage-in-israel/

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39 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I could take a guess. 

Because on the one hand, Israel needs every able body they can get.

On the other they do not wish to dilute the "purity"  if their population.

That's a theory I guess ... but how does that square with actual Israeli law and culture?

Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the Middle East, and it's one of the few countries in the Middle East that offers asylum to interfaith couples who are persecuted elsewhere, so how does your theory fit real life there?

Your theory might hold for Saudi Arabia or Iran, but it's obviously far from relevant in Israel, that country that was founded from the first stone on proto-hippie collectivism.

Any other ideas Meli?

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3 minutes ago, mikewof said:

That's a theory I guess ... but how does that square with actual Israeli law and culture?

Tel Aviv is the gay capital of the Middle East, and it's one of the few countries in the Middle East that offers asylum to interfaith couples who are persecuted elsewhere, so how does your theory fit real life there?

Your theory might hold for Saudi Arabia or Iran, but it's obviously far from relevant in Israel, that country that was founded from the first stone on proto-hippie collectivism.

Any other ideas Meli?

you are dishonest, read and post the link. It's more than a theory.

Many Israelis find these solutions problematic, and advocate for the institution of civil marriage in Israel. Former president of the Israeli Supreme Court, Aharon Barak, argues that the right to marry and build a family is a fundamental human right and is essential to human dignity. But many religious Zionist leaders and most if not all ultra-Orthodox Israelis, including the ultra-Orthodox political parties United Torah Judaism and Shas, disagree.

They argue that maintaining the rabbinate’s exclusive control over issues of personal status, particularly marriage and divorce, is an essential part of maintaining Israel’s character as a Jewish state. Practically, they also worry that instituting civil marriage will encourage intermarriage and assimilation within Israel.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel (Hebrew: הרבנות הראשית לישראל, Ha-Rabanut Ha-Rashit Li-Yisra'el) is recognized by law[2] as the supreme rabbinic authority for Judaism in Israel. The Chief Rabbinate Council assists the two chief rabbis, who alternate in its presidency. It has legal and administrative authority to organize religious arrangements for Israel's Jews. It also responds to halakhic questions submitted by Jewish public bodies in the Diaspora. The Council sets, guides and supervises agencies within its authority.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel consists of two Chief Rabbis: an Ashkenazi rabbi and a Sephardi rabbi, also known as the Rishon leZion. The Chief Rabbis are elected for 10 year terms. The present Sephardi Chief Rabbi is Yitzhak Yosef and the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi is David Lau, both of whom commenced their terms in 2013.[3]

The Rabbinate has jurisdiction over many aspects of Jewish life in Israel. Its jurisdiction includes personal status issues, such as Jewish marriages and Jewish divorce, as well as Jewish burials, conversion to Judaism, kosher laws and kosher certification, Jewish immigrants to Israel (olim), supervision of Jewish holy sites, working with various ritual baths (mikvaot) and yeshivas, and overseeing Rabbinical courts in Israel.

The Rabbinical courts are part of Israel's judicial system, and are managed by the Ministry of Religious Services. The courts have exclusive jurisdiction over marriage and divorce of Jews and have parallel competence with district courts in matters of personal status, alimony, child support, custody, and inheritance. Religious court verdicts are implemented and enforced—as for the civil court system—by the police, bailiff's office, and other agencies.[4]

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Again, it seems that marriage thing is a byproduct of a larger, overriding idea.

Since you still refuse to answer my question before asking me yet another one of your own questions, I'll repose my question to you with to the larger reality on the ground in Israel ... What's the logic in the government of Israel not recognizing moderate religions that will perform a marriage between a Jew and an "Arab" of any of those faiths?

Are you willing to answer now?

  I am asking you for an answer to these questions because I can't understand the reason. What idea says that Jews and Arabs shouldn't intermarry? What is the goal there? 

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I suggest that Mikey doesn't want to open up this can of worms.

The chief Rabbinate is currently under fire for insisting Jews take DNA testing to prove their Jewishness before they can legally marry.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Chief-Rabbinate-admits-using-DNA-tests-for-Jewish-status-determination-582605

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12 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

I suggest that Mikey doesn't want to open up this can of worms.

The chief Rabbinate is currently under fire for insisting Jews take DNA testing to prove their Jewishness before they can legally marry.

https://www.jpost.com/Israel-News/Chief-Rabbinate-admits-using-DNA-tests-for-Jewish-status-determination-582605

 

 So Israel has adopted Hitler's view that Jewish is as much or more race than religion.  That's really effin' tragic.  

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4 hours ago, Shortforbob said:

you are dishonest, read and post the link. It's more than a theory.

Many Israelis find these solutions problematic, and advocate for the institution of civil marriage in Israel. Former president of the Israeli Supreme Court, Aharon Barak, argues that the right to marry and build a family is a fundamental human right and is essential to human dignity. But many religious Zionist leaders and most if not all ultra-Orthodox Israelis, including the ultra-Orthodox political parties United Torah Judaism and Shas, disagree.

They argue that maintaining the rabbinate’s exclusive control over issues of personal status, particularly marriage and divorce, is an essential part of maintaining Israel’s character as a Jewish state. Practically, they also worry that instituting civil marriage will encourage intermarriage and assimilation within Israel.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel (Hebrew: הרבנות הראשית לישראל, Ha-Rabanut Ha-Rashit Li-Yisra'el) is recognized by law[2] as the supreme rabbinic authority for Judaism in Israel. The Chief Rabbinate Council assists the two chief rabbis, who alternate in its presidency. It has legal and administrative authority to organize religious arrangements for Israel's Jews. It also responds to halakhic questions submitted by Jewish public bodies in the Diaspora. The Council sets, guides and supervises agencies within its authority.

The Chief Rabbinate of Israel consists of two Chief Rabbis: an Ashkenazi rabbi and a Sephardi rabbi, also known as the Rishon leZion. The Chief Rabbis are elected for 10 year terms. The present Sephardi Chief Rabbi is Yitzhak Yosef and the Ashkenazi Chief Rabbi is David Lau, both of whom commenced their terms in 2013.[3]

The Rabbinate has jurisdiction over many aspects of Jewish life in Israel. Its jurisdiction includes personal status issues, such as Jewish marriages and Jewish divorce, as well as Jewish burials, conversion to Judaism, kosher laws and kosher certification, Jewish immigrants to Israel (olim), supervision of Jewish holy sites, working with various ritual baths (mikvaot) and yeshivas, and overseeing Rabbinical courts in Israel.

The Rabbinical courts are part of Israel's judicial system, and are managed by the Ministry of Religious Services. The courts have exclusive jurisdiction over marriage and divorce of Jews and have parallel competence with district courts in matters of personal status, alimony, child support, custody, and inheritance. Religious court verdicts are implemented and enforced—as for the civil court system—by the police, bailiff's office, and other agencies.[4]

Dishonest?

Did you read the link you posted? It's about the opinions of a religious institution. That's not new, Mark and I have been discussing that thing for a few days now.

But the opinions of one of Israel's recognized religions is not the same as Israeli law. The law has created an oasis for mixed ethnicity and homosexual couples.

Is that really the most logical conclusion you can find about why Israel seems to find moderate religions so threatening, possibly even undermining?

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3 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Dishonest?

Did you read the link you posted? It's about the opinions of a religious institution. That's not new, Mark and I have been discussing that thing for a few days now.

But the opinions of one of Israel's recognized religions is not the same as Israeli law. The law has created an oasis for mixed ethnicity and homosexual couples.

Is that really the most logical conclusion you can find about why Israel seems to find moderate religions so threatening, possibly even undermining?

well why don't you tell us why mixed or civil marriage is not legal in Israel then.and how the Rabbinate have no jurisdiction over marriage law .I'm sure you're just itching to.

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5 hours ago, Mark K said:

 

 So Israel has adopted Hitler's view that Jewish is as much or more race than religion.  That's really effin' tragic.  

So if some yahoos write their opinions, that overwhelms actual law and culture for actual Israelis?

Have you personally known even a single mainstream Israeli who agrees with that nonsense you wrote up there? Have you ever met an actual Israeli? It's a nation of Deadheads fercrissakes!

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3 minutes ago, mikewof said:

So if some yahoos write their opinions, that overwhelms actual law and culture for actual Israelis?

Have you personally known even a single mainstream Israeli who agrees with that nonsense you wrote up there? Have you ever met an actual Israeli? It's a nation of Deadheads fercrissakes!

Yahoo's..the Rabbinate?

The Rabbinical courts are part of Israel's judicial system, and are managed by the Ministry of Religious Services. The courts have exclusive jurisdiction over marriage and divorce of Jews and have parallel competence with district courts in matters of personal status, alimony, child support, custody, and inheritance. Religious court verdicts are implemented and enforced—as for the civil court system—by the police, bailiff's office, and other agencies.[4]

Bit like Sharia really.

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

well why don't you tell us why mixed or civil marriage is not legal in Israel then..I'm sure you're just itching to.

You need to read. 

Interfaith marriages, gay marriages, interracial marriages are 100% legal and accepted in Israel. Remember, Israel protected gay rights even back when Australia still could deport someone for being gay.

But Israel doesn't recognize any moderate Christian, Jewish, Islamic. Druze, B'hai, or Samaritan religions. They are all fundamental sects. Why?

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Just now, Shortforbob said:

Yahoo's..the Rabbinate?

The "Rabbinate" is a governing body of a tiny schism of Judaism in a country that is largely irreligious and secular.

So yes, yahoo is sufficiently descriptive. They're good guys, but they're so far from mainstream Israel that they are pitstream in the thick of yahooland.

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

The "Rabbinate" is a governing body of a tiny schism of Judaism in a country that is largely irreligious and secular.

So yes, yahoo is sufficiently descriptive. They're good guys, but they're so far from mainstream Israel that they are pitstream in the thick of yahooland.

BULLSHIT

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5 minutes ago, mikewof said:

You need to read. 

Interfaith marriages, gay marriages, interracial marriages are 100% legal and accepted in Israel. Remember, Israel protected gay rights even back when Australia still could deport someone for being gay.

But Israel doesn't recognize any moderate Christian, Jewish, Islamic. Druze, B'hai, or Samaritan religions. They are all fundamental sects. Why?

You are being disingenuous.

Gay marriage etc performed OUTSIDE Israel is recognized for statistical purposes. Anyone can hold a marriage ceremony in Israel..but it's not legally recognized for Family law or divorce or any other purposes.

You're full of bullshit. 

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1 minute ago, mikewof said:

Ah, so with what do you disagree?

Fuck off mike, you're a waste of BB.

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22 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

You are being disingenuous.

Gay marriage etc performed OUTSIDE Israel is recognized for statistical purposes. Anyone can hold a marriage ceremony in Israel..but it's not legally recognized for Family law or divorce or any other purposes.

You're full of bullshit. 

For "statistical purposes"?

WTF? Just a few posts ago you were suggesting that Israel is working toward some kind of "Nazi" purity. Now you've done a 180 and you're suggesting that Israel suddenly wants these people for "statistical purposes"?

Make up you mind perhaps, Meli? Which reason is it?

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2 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

Fuck off mike, you're a waste of BB.

Please don't blame me for you inability to form a coherent position, huh?

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6 hours ago, Mark K said:

  I am asking you for an answer to these questions because I can't understand the reason. What idea says that Jews and Arabs shouldn't intermarry? What is the goal there? 

What is the goal?

You assume that's the goal. But what if that isn't the goal? Your question would thus be unanswerable.

Again, you need to first accept that there is a larger issue than marriage. Marriage is a cultural speedbump compared to things like territorialism, migration, and resource competition.

In its classic sense, marriage wasn't even needed for regular shmoes. The whole purpose of marriage was to create a clear transition of ownership for property and nobility, and landed gentry.

But nomadic tribes, renters, herders, and gatherers, marriage was some guy taking a wife or six. The church got involved with Joe Shmoe marriage when they saw they could skim some money off of it.

Again, the larger question isn't marriage, it's religion. If Israel recognized some moderate religions then interfaith and gay marriages would be common. And as now, the State would recognize them.

So again, that's my question, and you seem committed to putting words in my mouth about a question that I didn't ask.

That you gave credence to a nonsensical theory about Israeli "racial purity" suggests that your mind is already made up, and I'm wasting my time.

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2 hours ago, mikewof said:

That you gave credence to a nonsensical theory about Israeli "racial purity" suggests that your mind is already made up, and I'm wasting my time.

Your time would only have been wasted if you were honestly trying to have a discussion on the topic.

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9 hours ago, mikewof said:

Is that really the most logical conclusion you can find about why Israel seems to find moderate religions so threatening, possibly even undermining?

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/equality-religion-and-gender-in-israel

I assume you're getting at what's described in the link?

The problem with 'moderate' religions are that that they bridge the private/public barrier.  Fundamentalists are basically allowed to do whatever they want 'personally' but have literally no say in the public sphere.  That's an easier division.  Moderates would expect a more encompassing view - a blurring of lines either intentionally or not - which would disrupt the detente.

 

 

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8 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Your time would only have been wasted if you were honestly trying to have a discussion on the topic.

Then you've never wasted a second of your own time since you got here. Thanks for the heads up, I'll try to avoid letting you waste my time.

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13 hours ago, mikewof said:

So if some yahoos write their opinions, that overwhelms actual law and culture for actual Israelis?

Have you personally known even a single mainstream Israeli who agrees with that nonsense you wrote up there? Have you ever met an actual Israeli? It's a nation of Deadheads fercrissakes!

Deadheads who can't marry Arabs because the government won't let them, you mean? Those "yahoos" seem to be running the show. 

 No worries, I am aware the Likudniks are just a small minority. Bibi has managed to parlay that into a coalition of ruling yahoos is all. As one of his generals once put it "With the skill of an Arafat". 

  

 

 

 

 

  

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4 hours ago, cmilliken said:

https://jwa.org/encyclopedia/article/equality-religion-and-gender-in-israel

I assume you're getting at what's described in the link?

The problem with 'moderate' religions are that that they bridge the private/public barrier.  Fundamentalists are basically allowed to do whatever they want 'personally' but have literally no say in the public sphere.  That's an easier division.  Moderates would expect a more encompassing view - a blurring of lines either intentionally or not - which would disrupt the detente.

Yes, that article touches on it, Israel did have "heightened sensitivity" to the problems of discrimination. They even share the dubious distinction with Australia of never having ratified a bill of rights. But like Australia, they have made adaptations. Israel even elected a woman PM back in the 1960s. They seem to embody the ideas of social justice well enough.

I think you're right that moderate religions are far more disruptive than fundamental religions, and yes, that's my point too.

But Israel is not beholden to their fundamentalist religions, it seems the opposite. Israel seems to use its fundamentalist religions to control the rise of moderate religions. And that's apparently because both Israeli Arabs and Israeli Jews already have their moderate religion, I guess it might as well be called Israelism. They can both largely ignore their Judaism, Druze, Islam and Christianity, and live a highly protected secular life in a largely secular country that is mostly filled with their fellow irreligious. Their fellow gays, union activists, feminists, socialists, collectivists, and atheists.

Christians rarely seem to understand this lust for secularity -- except maybe Catholics and Mormons -- because Christians are born into a world where they can be as religious or irreligious as they like, it's even written into the rules of Christianity ... they get to ignore most of the dietary, sex and commerce rules to which Jews and Muslims live and die.

So Israel didn't authorize a moderate church to marry interfaith? Yeah, that's the point, they don't want competition in the secular sphere, that's the detente you mention.

In Israelism, marriage is performed nightly at the nightclubs in Tel Aviv, and every afternoon at the sidewalk cafes. The Israeli marriage is written into the country's collectivist socialism; women have rights, and marriage brings next to nothing to the average Israeli's life that they don't already get from their country.

And it's been a wildly successful social experiment ... a tiny country in one of the toughest neighborhoods found a way to use their collectivism to win wars built on atheism and community, rather than ethnicity and lineage. They have obtained wealth and found peace with former enemies without needing to rely on religion or Meli's nonsensical "racial purity."

Yah, that would be a cultural model that any highly mongrelized country like USA, Canada, South Africa or Iran would find useful.

Again, how many contemporary countries were literally founded on collectivism like Israel? Secularity is Israel's playground. Marriage? That's that antique thing that Christians used to use before rights were codified. And different flavors of it happen all over. In the USA, divorce is more highly protected, legally supervised and nurtured than marriage. That's our method, we make marriage easy and then get the victims of marriage on the back-end.

 

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20 minutes ago, Mark K said:

Deadheads who can't marry Arabs because the government won't let them, you mean? Those "yahoos" seem to be running the show. 

 No worries, I am aware the Likudniks are just a small minority. Bibi has managed to parlay that into a coalition of ruling yahoos is all. As one of his generals once put it "With the skill of an Arafat". 

Once again, the Israeli government doesn't give two shits if Arab and Jew Deadheads spend their lives together and procreate, they just apparently don't want any moderate religions threatening the sanctity of their secularity.

While you and Meli and Battlecheese do your darndest to create an Israeli reality to your worldview, interfaith couples and gay couples flock to Israel to live in freedom that they can't get elsewhere.

Your theory is thus demonstrably wrong. Maybe adjust it?

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10 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Once again, the Israeli government doesn't give two shits if Arab and Jew Deadheads spend their lives together and procreate, they just apparently don't want any moderate religions threatening the sanctity of their secularity.

While you and Meli and Battlecheese do your darndest to create an Israeli reality to your worldview, interfaith couples and gay couples flock to Israel to live in freedom that they can't get elsewhere.

Your theory is thus demonstrably wrong. Maybe adjust it?

They wish defend the secular nature of their government by refusing to acknowledge interfaith marriages?

   Makes perfect sense.  Btw, you may be guilty of using a racial slur to describe an Israeli. That's anti-antisemitism.  

  yahoo (n.) 
"a brute in human form," 1726, from the race of brutish human creatures in Swift's "Gulliver's Travels."

 

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1 hour ago, Mark K said:

They wish defend the secular nature of their government by refusing to acknowledge interfaith marriages?

   Makes perfect sense.  Btw, you may be guilty of using a racial slur to describe an Israeli. That's anti-antisemitism.  

  yahoo (n.) 
"a brute in human form," 1726, from the race of brutish human creatures in Swift's "Gulliver's Travels."

 

At least it fits the available data.

Your theory fails at first examination. If you have a better idea, lay it on me. But your "racial purity" thing is clearly nonsense. Why would a country who wants racial purity be so eager to bring in so many diverse people from so many different places?

I mean, yeah Mark, your contrarian nature is adorable, but if your own theory so obviously fails, then you need a new one.

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1 hour ago, mikewof said:

Your theory fails at first examination. If you have a better idea, lay it on me. But your "racial purity" thing is clearly nonsense. Why would a country who wants racial purity be so eager to bring in so many diverse people from so many different places?

I agree. It makes no sense. Why would anyone be talking about racial purity when discussing Israel - a country which will take Jewish people from almost anywhere?

What sort of deluded mind would attempt to conflate the issues of religion and race?

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14 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

I agree. It makes no sense. Why would anyone be talking about racial purity when discussing Israel - a country which will take Jewish people from almost anywhere?

What sort of deluded mind would attempt to conflate the issues of religion and race?

Okay, I'm glad I didn't put you on ignore. Yes, that's a good point, but there are still racists who actually believe that there is such a thing as "race" even in this age where the genome has obliterated that nonsense.

Just like Italy will take Italians, and Greece will take Greeks, and Morocco will take Moroccans, Israel will take Jews. Some call that kind of return a "cultural lifeboat." Yes, Lebanese live in Australia, but a vital component of global Lebanese culture and community IS the existence of Lebanon. My Australian neighbor has a teenage boy who has spent all of two weeks in Australia in his life, he's a Colorado as the day is long, but he identifies as an Australian. They eat Vegemite and Tim Tams and the boy plays footie, which is rare here.

Some people need a homeland, and that's a good thing. The collectivist founders of Israel took the approach of my neighbor with his son. They disconnected the religion from the culture for one of the first times in Jewish history, and the result is a nation of irreligious Jews who keep finding ways to bring peace back to their little chunk of land.

So yes, religion isn't race, because race isn't real, it's a tool of racists. But to your point, religion isn't ethnicity either. And we live on a rock where people happily beat each other senseless over ethnicity, from Cronulla to Kathmandu. Most of these countries are largely populated by Christians or Muslims, Buddhists or Hindus, but one of them, a teeny little country in the Mediterranean is populated by mostly irreligious and atheistic Jews. And for some reason, a relative handful of highly intelligent Atheists and progressive Christians around the world have an eternal hatred of that reality.

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9 hours ago, mikewof said:

...and the result is a nation of irreligious Jews who keep finding ways to bring peace back to their little chunk of land.

Imo they are doing a spectacularly bad job.

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1 hour ago, Battlecheese said:

Imo they are doing a spectacularly bad job.

Obviously that's your opinion. Your opinion is shared by millions like yourself.

But why is that opinion so pervasive given the reality of the situation there? Israelis found peace with avowed enemies like Jordan and Egypt, and they're on the road to peace with Lebanon, and adding peace each year with Palestine.

So yeah, you have your opinion, but like so many others, why is your opinion not based in reality?

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27 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Obviously that's your opinion. Your opinion is shared by millions like yourself.

But why is that opinion so pervasive given the reality of the situation there? Israelis found peace with avowed enemies like Jordan and Egypt, and they're on the road to peace with Lebanon, and adding peace each year with Palestine.

So yeah, you have your opinion, but like so many others, why is your opinion not based in reality?

We have already covered these issues in this thread. Jordan and Egypt are on the american payroll. Lebanon is peaceful because israel has mostly left them alone since losing that war in 2006.

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Israel have a weird way of showing they're the good guys if they want support in the case of war breaking out. The West Bank settlement and the lack of oversight allowing the illegal actions of Mossad spring to mind.

They were the first country I've looked at as an ally and seriously started to question if we weren't making excuses just because they were on 'our side'.

  

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38 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

Israel have a weird way of showing they're the good guys if they want support in the case of war breaking out. The West Bank settlement and the lack of oversight allowing the illegal actions of Mossad spring to mind.

They were the first country I've looked at as an ally and seriously started to question if we weren't making excuses just because they were on 'our side'.

  

The creeping land annexation and the 2 rules for land development where the bulldozers go in & flatten Palestinian structures while the Jewish ones get a pass when squatting on Palestinian land did it for me years ago. Pox on both sides is my current position. If the Palestinians disavowed Hamas/pushing Israelis into the sea and stopped trying to get what they're *NEVER* going to get (right of return for everyone including descendants plus return of all land) I'd be supporting them wholeheartedly.

FKT

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On 3/17/2019 at 2:26 PM, mikewof said:

At least it fits the available data.

Your theory fails at first examination. If you have a better idea, lay it on me. But your "racial purity" thing is clearly nonsense. Why would a country who wants racial purity be so eager to bring in so many diverse people from so many different places?

I mean, yeah Mark, your contrarian nature is adorable, but if your own theory so obviously fails, then you need a new one.

So why does the government of Israel refuse to recognize interfaith marriages? 

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2 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

We have already covered these issues in this thread. Jordan and Egypt are on the american payroll. Lebanon is peaceful because israel has mostly left them alone since losing that war in 2006.

So you're saying that Egypt and Jordan don't actually have intensive and profitable trade with Israel, and Israel just manages the Palestinian border crossings for them ... because the USA tells them to? And the natural gas deal with Lebanon in the Leviathan fields, that's because Israel lost to Lebanon? Then why doesn't your kooky logic similarly apply to Egypt, who lost a major war and shit-ton of land to Israel, which was then returned to them in a peace deal?

Why? Because you seem to make this stuff up as you go along?

And the increasing peace and trade with Palestine, that's a U.S. thing too?

The interesting thing here is that guys like you manage to write these things about Israel, regardless the peace, and yet China, Russia, Saudia, Turkey, India (Kashmir)? Nada. You apparently have a hard-on against Israel. I've no idea why, I suspect you have no idea why either.

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25 minutes ago, Mark K said:

So why does the government of Israel refuse to recognize interfaith marriages? 

Ah, so now it's a game? Your own link, the one you pasted, showed that Israel does in fact, recognize interfaith marriages. But in order to appear less taken, you're just going to stick to your story huh? You and Bull Gator hanging out together?

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1 hour ago, shaggybaxter said:

Israel have a weird way of showing they're the good guys if they want support in the case of war breaking out. The West Bank settlement and the lack of oversight allowing the illegal actions of Mossad spring to mind.

They were the first country I've looked at as an ally and seriously started to question if we weren't making excuses just because they were on 'our side'.

Israel has an odd alliance with the USA, as far as we are from them. Their alliances with Italy, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco and Turkey make more sense.

But while you doubt Israel's alliance, you might remind yourself that they agree not to do defense business with a bunch of nations at our request. Israel has little ideological difference with India, China and Russia, but they agree not to sell their electronic warfare to them at our request. And they keep humoring us, with their balance of payments of U.S. aid amounting to much less than they could make in their defense markets.

I have no idea of they are "on our side", but they do seem to walk the walk.

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Just now, mikewof said:

Israel has an odd alliance with the USA, as far as we are from them. Their alliances with Italy, Jordan, Egypt, Morocco and Turkey make more sense.

But while you doubt Israel's alliance, you might remind yourself that they agree not to do defense business with a bunch of nations at our request. Israel has little ideological difference with India, China and Russia, but they agree not to sell their electronic warfare to them at our request. And they keep humoring us, with their balance of payments of U.S. aid amounting to much less than they could make in their defense markets.

I have no idea of they are "on our side", but they do seem to walk the walk.

G'day Mike,

I'm sure your right in the big picture aka: walking the walk, but I'd be a bit circumspect if you looked behind the curtains. For example, Israel did a roaring trade through dubious third parties with Sth Africa at the height of the apartheid movement, not something they advertised for obvious reasons.

They've dirty hands in a lot of stuff that went down in the 80's and even the 90's, that's for sure. 

 

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1 hour ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

The creeping land annexation and the 2 rules for land development where the bulldozers go in & flatten Palestinian structures while the Jewish ones get a pass when squatting on Palestinian land did it for me years ago. Pox on both sides is my current position. If the Palestinians disavowed Hamas/pushing Israelis into the sea and stopped trying to get what they're *NEVER* going to get (right of return for everyone including descendants plus return of all land) I'd be supporting them wholeheartedly.

FKT

I guess I'll put you down for "they should just shut up and enjoy their refugee camps".

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9 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

I guess I'll put you down for "they should just shut up and enjoy their refugee camps".

Do you seriously expect Israel to allow/encourage some 5 million people who are the present-day descendants re-entry & citizenship in Israel?

The only way this is going to happen is if Israel loses a major war. If you think it's going to happen and encourage people in that belief, you're just prolonging the war settlement further.

Not a matter of shutting up & enjoying their camps, it's a matter of power. Look at the mass movements of people following the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The Turks *to this day* are really sensitive about what they did back then. Fridhof Nansen was one of the forst commissioners for refugees in the League of Nations, IIRC. Want to have a go at rolling that one back, too - it's only 2X as far back in time (bit less actually) than the 1948 war.

Why don't you practice on an easy topic - start with unscrambling a bowl of eggs.

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44 minutes ago, mikewof said:

And the natural gas deal with Lebanon in the Leviathan fields, that's because Israel lost to Lebanon?

Deal? There is no deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_gas_field

Quote

The existence of the Leviathan gas fields poses several challenges to states in that area of the Eastern Mediterranean, in terms of cooperation between them, as well as for the wider Mediterranean energy context.[30] After discovery of the Leviathan gas fields in 2010, Lebanon argued that the field extends into Lebanese waters. Lebanon’s Parliament Speaker Nabih Berri stated that Israel is "ignoring the fact that according to the maps the deposit extends into Lebanese waters," Agence France-Presse reported on June 9.[31] Israeli Minister of National Infrastructures Uzi Landau responded "We will not hesitate to use our force and strength to protect not only the rule of law but the international maritime law," in an interview.[31]In August 2010, Lebanon submitted to the United Nations its official view regarding the maritime border, indicating that it considered the Tamar and Leviathan gas fields to be outside Lebanese territory (though it indicated other prospective fields in the region may be within Lebanese territory). The US expressed support for the Lebanon proposal.[32]

Lebanon had no leverage, and folded rather than risk a war. I am sure they managed to get something out of it in exchange for quietly going away.

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8 minutes ago, Fah Kiew Tu said:

Do you seriously expect Israel to allow/encourage some 5 million people who are the present-day descendants re-entry & citizenship in Israel?

The only way this is going to happen is if Israel loses a major war. If you think it's going to happen and encourage people in that belief, you're just prolonging the war settlement further.

Not a matter of shutting up & enjoying their camps, it's a matter of power. Look at the mass movements of people following the fall of the Ottoman Empire. The Turks *to this day* are really sensitive about what they did back then. Fridhof Nansen was one of the forst commissioners for refugees in the League of Nations, IIRC. Want to have a go at rolling that one back, too - it's only 2X as far back in time (bit less actually) than the 1948 war.

Why don't you practice on an easy topic - start with unscrambling a bowl of eggs.

I totally agree that the Right of Return is off the table from israel's perspective. I suspect it will require a major war which resets all of the national boundaries in the region to fix this mess. Not that I am hoping for this, but I'm not sure any other alternatives are likely.

It strikes me as slightly humorous that you are a fan of the Palestinians just sucking it up, even though further up in the thread you note that the area they have retreated to continues to shrink...

You raising the topic of Nansen is interesting: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fridtjof_Nansen#Greco-Turkish_resettlement

Quote

After the Greco-Turkish War of 1919–1922, Nansen travelled to Istanbul to negotiate the resettlement of hundreds of thousands of refugees, mainly ethnic Greeks who had fled from Turkey after the defeat of the Greek Army. The impoverished Greek state was unable to take them in,[9] and so Nansen devised a scheme for a population exchange whereby half a million Turks in Greece were returned to Turkey, with full financial compensation, while further loans facilitated the absorption of the refugee Greeks into their homeland.

The differences between these two situations seem particularly stark.

 

 

 

 

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8 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

Deal? There is no deal.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Leviathan_gas_field

Lebanon had no leverage, and folded rather than risk a war. I am sure they managed to get something out of it in exchange for quietly going away.

Read your link. Lebanon has leverage and access to the gas that they can pull out of the field from their territorial waters, same as Israel. And regardless the hawks, Israel and Lebanon continue to move to licensing the Levant field without a war. They did not "fold", they report their own licensing ... https://www.lpa.gov.lb/

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2 minutes ago, mikewof said:

Read your link. Lebanon has leverage and access to the gas that they can pull out of the field from their territorial waters, same as Israel. And regardless the hawks, Israel and Lebanon continue to move to licensing the Levant field without a war. They did not "fold", they report their own licensing ... https://www.lpa.gov.lb/

I read my link. As you have backtracked to: there was no (public) deal. Lebanon clarified their international waters boundary with the UN, conveniently excluding the Leviathan field.

If I were Lebanese I would probably suspect the leadership had just been making a fuss to get their palms greased so they'd go away.

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50 minutes ago, shaggybaxter said:

G'day Mike,

I'm sure your right in the big picture aka: walking the walk, but I'd be a bit circumspect if you looked behind the curtains. For example, Israel did a roaring trade through dubious third parties with Sth Africa at the height of the apartheid movement, not something they advertised for obvious reasons.

They've dirty hands in a lot of stuff that went down in the 80's and even the 90's, that's for sure.

Israel and South Africa were thick as thieves in the day, that ended somewhat when S. Africa went compliant with the NPT.

The Israel-US defense agreements are two-sided of course ... Israel agrees on the export restrictions, and they get the military aid and purchase packages. I agree though, it's an odd alliance, and as economic warfare becomes the new cold warfare, Israel's alliances with their neighbors will become more important.

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5 minutes ago, Battlecheese said:

I read my link. As you have backtracked to: there was no (public) deal. Lebanon clarified their international waters boundary with the UN, conveniently excluding the Leviathan field.

If I were Lebanese I would probably suspect the leadership had just been making a fuss to get their palms greased so they'd go away.

No backtrack. They didn't go to war, regardless the saber rattling, and now they're both working up their own extraction agreements. It's not the white dove of peace, but rather the promise of profits that has both Israel and Lebanon behaving themselves. And that's been my point all along in this thread, commerce is ultimately more profitable than war in the long-term.

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13 minutes ago, mikewof said:

No backtrack. They didn't go to war, regardless the saber rattling, and now they're both working up their own extraction agreements. It's not the white dove of peace, but rather the promise of profits that has both Israel and Lebanon behaving themselves. And that's been my point all along in this thread, commerce is ultimately more profitable than war in the long-term.

Well, you wrote: And the natural gas deal with Lebanon in the Leviathan fields

Maybe it's just me, but "Um, ok, you can have it - we'll go look over here" falls short of the situation you imply.

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8 hours ago, Battlecheese said:

Well, you wrote: And the natural gas deal with Lebanon in the Leviathan fields

Maybe it's just me, but "Um, ok, you can have it - we'll go look over here" falls short of the situation you imply.

Thank you for the correction then, it's less of a deal and more of an agreement. They're both working to extract gas from the field, and signs seem to point to no conflict, other than commercial conflict.

Commerce has apparently brought a little bit of peace between Israel and Lebanon. Kinda neat huh? And it seems to be happening similarly with Egypt, Jordan and Palestine. Just a few years ago, Egypt had given up on Gaza and of course Jordan did all they could to disengage from the West Bank. And now it's 2019 and they're all selling stuff to each other.

George Marshall said "If man does find the solution for world peace it will be the most revolutionary reversal of his record we have ever known." And it seems that Marshall's method for peace might be the only one that ever works in the long-run. It seems to be the only one which still works now.

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On 3/18/2019 at 8:38 PM, mikewof said:

Ah, so now it's a game? Your own link, the one you pasted, showed that Israel does in fact, recognize interfaith marriages. But in order to appear less taken, you're just going to stick to your story huh? You and Bull Gator hanging out together?

I suppose I will be labeled antisemitic by you (again) for this, but...

 

Marriages in Israel can be performed only under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, and no religious intermarriages can be performed legally in Israel.[1]

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On 3/16/2019 at 12:24 PM, Mark K said:

What's the logic in the government of Israel not recognizing a marriage between a Jew and an "Arab" of any of those faiths?  What other "secular" country behaves like that? 

 

 

Its simple.  Its because the jewish state doesn't want Arabs breeding with jews and diluting their majority rule.

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1 hour ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Its simple.  Its because the jewish state doesn't want Arabs breeding with jews and diluting their majority rule.

awww. Don't you go ruining our fun.

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2 hours ago, Mark K said:

I suppose I will be labeled antisemitic by you (again) for this, but...

 

Marriages in Israel can be performed only under the auspices of the religious community to which couples belong, and no religious intermarriages can be performed legally in Israel.[1]

And yet, according to the link you posted in this very thread, Israel DOES recognize interfaith marriages.

This is the bit that you didn't paste; "However, civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages entered into abroad are recognized by the state.

So when you ask "why does the government of Israel refuse to recognize iinterfaith marriages?" You in fact do know that the government of Israel DOES recognize interfaith marriages, but the conservative religions that they recognize don't allow it.

Actually, just to mess with your insistence, Israel DOES recognize a religion that does interfaith marriages, Baha'i performs interfaith marriages between a Baha'i and a non Baha'i. But Israel doesn't recognize a moderate Jewish or Muslim sect that will perform interfaith marriages.

So again, for the sixth or seventh time, your actual question is "why doesn't Israel recognize any moderate Jewish or Islamic religions?"

And you insist to avoid that question. I have no idea why, except that maybe the answer will fuck with your worldview, and you want to avoid thinking about it, perhaps?

 

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2 hours ago, Shootist Jeff said:

Its simple.  Its because the jewish state doesn't want Arabs breeding with jews and diluting their majority rule.

It's only simple when you take Mark's dishonest word game.

Because the reality is that Israel does recognize interfaith marriages, regardless what Mark wrote, but they don't recognize the moderate Jewish and Islamic religions to perform the marriages. 

And then, what you wrote about dilution and majority rule is demonstrated as wrong, because statistically, Reform Judaism interfaith marriages would INCREASE the number of Jewish children for that "majority rule", since Reform Jewish marriages with the ethnic Jewish majority in Israel, would thus increase the number of Jews in Israel. And yet, Reform Judaism still isn't recognized as an official religion in Israel.

So now JBSF, would you like to try again on a different explanation that fits the facts rather than Mark's word game?

 

Think about it JBSF ... why are there so few Jews in the world, much less than 1%  compared to the massive numbers of Christians, Hindus, Muslims and Buddhists? FT_17.04.05_projectionsUpdate_globalPop6 Your theory doesn't make sense in the only country with a majority of Jews. That's the nature of having more than 51% of Jews in Israel; any interfaith marriage that transmits Judaism through either parent (like Reform Judaism) would then statistically increase the number of Jews. So what gives, JBSF?

You may have noticed that I've asked Mark about this for over a week in this thread, and he still refuses to answer it.

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20 hours ago, mikewof said:

And yet, according to the link you posted in this very thread, Israel DOES recognize interfaith marriages.

This is the bit that you didn't paste; "However, civil, interfaith and same-sex marriages entered into abroad are recognized by the state.

So when you ask "why does the government of Israel refuse to recognize iinterfaith marriages?" You in fact do know that the government of Israel DOES recognize interfaith marriages, but the conservative religions that they recognize don't allow it.

Actually, just to mess with your insistence, Israel DOES recognize a religion that does interfaith marriages, Baha'i performs interfaith marriages between a Baha'i and a non Baha'i. But Israel doesn't recognize a moderate Jewish or Muslim sect that will perform interfaith marriages.

So again, for the sixth or seventh time, your actual question is "why doesn't Israel recognize any moderate Jewish or Islamic religions?"

And you insist to avoid that question. I have no idea why, except that maybe the answer will fuck with your worldview, and you want to avoid thinking about it, perhaps?

 

So why is it illegal for interfaith marriages to be made in Israel? 

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9 hours ago, Mark K said:

So why is it illegal for interfaith marriages to be made in Israel? 

Ah, now we're getting somewhere after the previous false start a few days ago ...

You might have your own opinion, that may or may not be consistent with these facts ...

1. Israel has no problem with interfaith marriages performed in Israel that take advantage of legal loopholes, like Paraguayan Consulate marriages in Tel Aviv, or they can do civil union marriages if the couples declare a secular marriage, regardless their actual religious beliefs. Israelis can also do Common Law marriages under the original Socialist law still in effect.

2. Israel seems to encourage interfaith marriages and gay marriage by giving those marriages a 100% pass if performed in the "loophole methods."

Given these facts, it seems that Israel has no problem with these types of marriages, but rather with the reform/secular institutions that perform these marriages. Why? Probably because a largely secular religion would "threaten the detente" as CMillikin wrote, between the religious right and the collectivist and socialist foundations of the State of Israel. In other words, Israelism or Zionism already IS the secular religion in Israel, and they don't want to dilute that wildly effective branding with a bunch of milquetoast religions that could eventually weaken the State.

I can only assume that you doubt this, and probably prefer to follow Meli's misinformed nonsense that Israelis are a bunch of Nazis who want "racial purity" even though that explanation doesn't begin to hold up in even the lightest examination. But before you doubt too much, consider China's treatment of Falun Gong, an essentially secular religion, compared to its official "non-secular" religions of Buddhism, Taoism and Catholicism. But China literally imprisons and treats as criminals the adherents to the secularity of Falun Gong, apparently because it is so similar to China's Socialist Secularity. The conventional religions don't present much of the threat to China or Israel because they are so markedly different from the State Secularity. But things like Falun Gong, Reform Judaism, Quakers or Sufism are so friggen close to what Israel sells, that they would risk eventually not being discernible as religions, and become alternative identities of Statism.

Of course, the big difference is that Falun Gong adherents find it nearly impossible to live in China without persecution, but Israel is just trying to marginalize religious marriage, by encouraging civil unions that are compatible with their inherent collectivism. But further, if this is your biggest or Meli's biggest complaint about Israel, then it's not really worth bitching about, because whatever method -- regardless how fucked up you or Meli might claim it to be -- Israel IS the regional haven for people who want to live unmolested in gay and interfaith marriages. You and Meli are complaining about an administrative strategy, but Israel provides healthcare to all its people regardless of marriage, unlike the USA. And unlike Australia, Israel doesn't imprison asylum seekers for their homosexuality or unpopular ethnicity to a prison island in a remote atoll of the Pacific. So yeah, complain about it if you like, but they're rapidly abandoning the kinds of human rights abuses common in USA and Australia. And maybe that's just the nature of a collectivist parliament government.

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