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dfw_sailor

Uh Oh. I just bought a $1 Irwin 30 Competition. Atomic 4 or Electric?

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This was not planned. It appeared on CL yesterday afternoon. Its not a project boat, but not pristine by any stretch either. Inside is a bit rough in places, more cosmetic than anything. Bottom / Topsides re done 4 years ago. Deck Cabin roof has largely been prepped for a repaint. Basically it was someone elses project where most external cosmetic work is nearly done, but the project partners had a bust up, and the elderly owner said it is time to go. Reasonably good sails, good overall inventory. I also have all sorts of suitable sails from parting out other boats of similar vintage & size, with comparable dimensions. Plus extra stuff I have parted out over time. We might do some club racing, but really it is intended for day sailing / overnighting on Lake Ray Hubbard Texas (approx 4 miles x 5 miles). When the weather is good we sail 4 - 5 days and evenings per week, as we live 2 mins from the marina. 

The $1 price did not include a motor. The Atomic 4 was removed and rebuilt and is being offered for $1k. 

Because the lake is relatively small, little engine use is required (in and out of small marina), plus maybe a few times a year having to motor say 3 miles due to zero wind.

I figure my options are:

- Buy the atomic for the 1K and spend a weekend dropping it back in. Because of Marina / Lake rules, I will possibly have to pay $200 - $400 for crane work to drop the motor in. 

- Buy the atomic for 1k and onsell it at a higher price (? not much more though), and spend $1.5k - 2.5k electric conversion (10hp brushed industrial DC, 48 volt lead acid bank, good charging system and good control system). It could be the prices I have in mind are not achievable any more. Turn Key system kits run to about 5k. I have an electrical / mechanical & sailing background so I can do much by myself.

We have a Merit 22 (sadly its going to have to go, unless I can find a trailer for it - very scarce around here) - but we have got used to just using a trolling outboard (Minkota endura c55 which is underpowered but was just about sufficient for normal use. Had it running for 3 years).

Still in shock.... But wife pushed me into getting it when we saw it in the dark last night and this morning in daylight before doing the paperwork. I'm happy it was a shared decision. 

Suggestions?

 

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Put the A4 back in - you won't need a crane -  two guys can muscle it back into place. A halyard is all the "crane" you will need - they only weigh about 300 Lbs. Take the starter and alternator off and you'll be down around 275 - within the capability of one strong guy.

Pics please - is it the 1/2 Tonner with the chines aft? There was one of them around here with a blue "Imp" style paint job that was a very good looking boat.

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pictures will come - as soon as an interloper has moved stuff off the boat :) (there is a story to that, but what happens at the marina stays at the marina lol) 

 Plus I am backed up with work commitments etc this week. So pics next weekend, if not before.

Thanks for the advice - sounds like the A4 is the way to go.

These are pics of the boat 10 years ago. No longer yellow! is now white with black boot and top stripe. Some wood work is missing etc. There is much stuff to be picked up from owners house / garage.

Irwin 30 sailboatIrwin 30 sailboat

 

Next pics wont look as good ;)

The Competition model has a tiller instead of wheel, and quite a sparse interior. 1973. 

Here is a different boat, but better image showing deck / cabin etc. 6' standing head room. 10,000 lbs, 473 sqft SA (with 100% fore), PHRF ~ 177.  Seems to be a range of cabin window layouts within the same model.

 

Image result for irwin 30 competition

Fingers crossed we made an ok decision. Time will tell. 

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Pics - but not as I thoght.

 

I bought a boat for £1

it cost me quite a lot of money and time

best of luck to you - great adventure

 

Dylan

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For lake sailing, just to get in and out of the slip I definitely would have gone electric.  Cleaner and simpler for you, cleaner for the lake.

If you do install the Atomic-4, it's safe to avoid the heat exchanger upgrade and go raw water cooled because your raw water is fresh and it won't eat the block.

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Personally, I'd think pretty hard about going electric. Part of that is that my experience withA4s has been uniformly awful. I'd put an outboard on the back first.

How close to an off-the-shelf electric engine can you get? Where is it going to mate up: shaft, coupling, what? Remember that your charger (solar? Wind gen?) becomes part of your propulsion too.

Quiet, no fuel, minimum oil, minimum maintenance.... several big upsides. But the big question is, can you get one that will fit into your motor mounts etc etc without an unreasonable amount of work?

FB- Doug

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He's on a lake. He's not going to do any passage making under power. That's the beauty of it. He doesn't really need solar or wind.

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Thanks everyone - Y'all have talked me back into electric :)

A bit more research this morning - brushed DC 48v ~$500. Kelley regen capable 300A peak motor controller ~$250. Smart 4 bank charger ~$200. Allow $200 for other stuff. So lets say $1200 + Batteries. Others have found the operating power consumption is about 20 amp, so overkill on the controller.

Can go cheap with batteries  so about $300 - $400 (wet vs AGM). Overcome possible hydrogen discharge (minimized with smart charger anyway) with a small blower / vent system while charging. Build battery box under the stairs  where front of the A4 used to be. Minimizes power cable lengths / thinner cables.  Maintains similar weight in the same location.

Motor mount above prop shaft with pulley / belt drive, including tensioner. That gives me gearing options if necessary (although the motor controller is programmable for torque vs rpm and probably means I wont need to gear.

At about $1600 for this setup, I'll go with this instead of the A4. 

No smell, minimal fire risk. Upgrade batteries in 4 years once the rest of the boat work is done. Still only about $100 per year in Battery cost. I can live with that for the benefits.

I am too busy to have to deal with temperamental gas (or diesel) engines that need significant maintenance.

As Ajax said, I don't need to do Solar or Wind. Shore Power :). Interesting - regen after even just an hours sailing is enough to put enough charge back in to get back into the marina. Not the basis for my plan though.

The Merit 22 will probably take several months to get rid of, so we will keep sailing it, and not rush the Irwin 30 work.

 

 

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You're one of the few people where the application is easily appropriate for *affordable* electric propulsion.

Cruisers, such as "Sailing Uma" ended up upgrading to large, expensive lithium banks in order to get the range and power desired.

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So maybe it's just me...but I've generally found that well maintained engines of any type/fuel source don't tend to be temperamental, and don't tend to need significant maintenance.  Only engines that have been long ignored turn into temperamental beasts.  The challenge any buyer of an inexpensive used inboard powered boat faces, is that the engine has likely NOT been well maintained....leading to temperamental-ness, and a lot of maintenance to get back into good running order.

The maintenance on an electric power system is different than that for gas/diesel, but there is still maintenance required.  Ignore it, and you'll have a temperamental electric power system.  

OBTW, I like electric in your situation...

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A4s are fine and not temperamental at all - when in good shape.  They are ALL old now and there has been plenty of time for stupid owner tricks and salt water to make them NOT in good shape, so it is definitely buyer beware in 2019 for engines that went out of production in the early 1980s.

I vote electric for two reasons:

1. If the engine was good, they would have put it back and made the boat much more valuable. Who wants a boat with no engine?

2. This is the first time EVER I have seen an application where no one is ignoring the laws of physics and thermodynamics and everything else for some dream of electric propulsion that cannot possibly work. This is the exact application that electric was made for B)

BTW - the batteries you want are the ones made for electric vehicles in the first place. Buy golf cart batteries, floor sweeper batteries, fork lift batteries, or some other type of "traction battery" ;)

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13 minutes ago, Crash said:

So maybe it's just me...but I've generally found that well maintained engines of any type/fuel source don't tend to be temperamental, and don't tend to need significant maintenance.  Only engines that have been long ignored turn into temperamental beasts.  The challenge any buyer of an inexpensive used inboard powered boat faces, is that the engine has likely NOT been well maintained....leading to temperamental-ness, and a lot of maintenance to get back into good running order.

The maintenance on an electric power system is different than that for gas/diesel, but there is still maintenance required.  Ignore it, and you'll have a temperamental electric power system.  

OBTW, I like electric in your situation...

My A4 started right up yesterday after having sat since December. She settled right into a nice idle after blowing a cloud of fogging oil smoke out the exhaust :)

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24 minutes ago, Ajax said:

You're one of the few people where the application is easily appropriate for *affordable* electric propulsion.

Cruisers, such as "Sailing Uma" ended up upgrading to large, expensive lithium banks in order to get the range and power desired.

Yes, it is really only cost effective for day sailing / overnighting. it will be interesting to see what effect regen has though. Thanks for the advice Ajax - you pushed me back to electric :)

 

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1 minute ago, dfw_sailor said:

Yes, it is really only cost effective for day sailing / overnighting. it will be interesting to see what effect regen has though. Thanks for the advice Ajax - you pushed me back to electric :)

 

A friend of mine has an electric boat. It is fun to cruise it around his lake in perfect quiet.

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2 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

A4s are fine and not temperamental at all - when in good shape.  They are ALL old now and there has been plenty of time for stupid owner tricks and salt water to make them NOT in good shape, so it is definitely buyer beware in 2019 for engines that went out of production in the early 1980s.

I vote electric for two reasons:

1. If the engine was good, they would have put it back and made the boat much more valuable. Who wants a boat with no engine?

2. This is the first time EVER I have seen an application where no one is ignoring the laws of physics and thermodynamics and everything else for some dream of electric propulsion that cannot possibly work. This is the exact application that electric was made for B)

That's one of my biggest concerns. This boat started out in New Jersey for about 30 years, before going to freshwater, for the last 20 years. Cant be sure of the maintenance history of the motor, but given the paint job I would say it has been pro rebuilt once, and now just diy rebuilt a second time.

I haven't dealt with gas engines before, just diesel, up to 50' boats, and havent had too many issues in the past. But given the low requirement for distance motoring on the lake, electric seems far preferable in this case.

 

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6 minutes ago, kent_island_sailor said:

A friend of mine has an electric boat. It is fun to cruise it around his lake in perfect quiet.

And as I get older - quiet becomes more important. We mainly sail late evenings into early morning to get away from redneck noise (jet skiers, fishing boats and speedboats playing doof doof music). Also this lake turns into a washing machine with rebounding wake during the day when not much wind chop - wind tends to keep most of the stink boats off the water :). This wont be as annoying on the 30' compared to the Merit 22 though. The Merit is flighty and uncomfortable in side ways slop when not much wind.

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33 minutes ago, Crash said:

So maybe it's just me...but I've generally found that well maintained engines of any type/fuel source don't tend to be temperamental, and don't tend to need significant maintenance.  Only engines that have been long ignored turn into temperamental beasts.  The challenge any buyer of an inexpensive used inboard powered boat faces, is that the engine has likely NOT been well maintained....leading to temperamental-ness, and a lot of maintenance to get back into good running order.

The maintenance on an electric power system is different than that for gas/diesel, but there is still maintenance required.  Ignore it, and you'll have a temperamental electric power system.  

OBTW, I like electric in your situation...

I'm much prefer electrical maintenance than combustion, so that is a factor for me. But it is easier for me than most, with a significant amount of electrical engineering in my career. I'm a green technologies person, so once I have it working well I will document it as an example for lake use. Most documentation on the web is too specific or too general. I might start a thread on the renovation of the Irwin 30, if there is some interest.

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25 minutes ago, dfw_sailor said:

That's one of my biggest concerns. This boat started out in New Jersey for about 30 years, before going to freshwater, for the last 20 years. Cant be sure of the maintenance history of the motor, but given the paint job I would say it has been pro rebuilt once, and now just diy rebuilt a second time.

I haven't dealt with gas engines before, just diesel, up to 50' boats, and havent had too many issues in the past. But given the low requirement for distance motoring on the lake, electric seems far preferable in this case.

 

Engines are engines and in all cases engines with salt water coolant, diesel or gasoline, will eventually have issues and some of those issues are not easy to fix. To make things worse OLD engines have OLD support systems and it really doesn't matter how good the engine is if the fuel tank is full of rust and exhaust has holes in it :rolleyes:

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Couple of thoughts - you really need to join the Atomic 4 cult to own one. The more things I own (own me) that require fuel the more I like electric stuff.  I once had some equipment that needed a new battery pack, put in some golf cart batteries that gave 80% of the performance at 25% of the cost.  Another advantage of going electric is everything is new - yeah, some maintenance required but will be a fraction of the other option.  Lastly -- blowing yourself up highly unlikely.

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21 minutes ago, d'ranger said:

Couple of thoughts - you really need to join the Atomic 4 cult to own one. The more things I own (own me) that require fuel the more I like electric stuff.  I once had some equipment that needed a new battery pack, put in some golf cart batteries that gave 80% of the performance at 25% of the cost.  Another advantage of going electric is everything is new - yeah, some maintenance required but will be a fraction of the other option.  Lastly -- blowing yourself up highly unlikely.

Don't be too sure about that, batteries on charge give off explosive gas and a 48 volt bank of traction batteries shorted out can go REALLY wrong :o

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I had an Irwin 37 and it was extremely poor quality. Looks like the competition models were a little nicer though. That said it is a 46 year old boat that is not worth much of anything even in good condition. Check the standing rigging, check the bulkheads, check the keel/hull joint, and check the rudder shaft.

slap a $250 outboard motor mount on the transom, then find a $250 9.9 or 15hp on craigslist and call it a day! glass up all the through hulls and you'll have a worry free simple day-sailor

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1 hour ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Don't be too sure about that, batteries on charge give off explosive gas and a 48 volt bank of traction batteries shorted out can go REALLY wrong :o

image.png.5cca9ede09a20f0c3fcc53d5b274f53f.png

The majority of house fires are electrical.

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4 hours ago, kent_island_sailor said:

Don't be too sure about that, batteries on charge give off explosive gas and a 48 volt bank of traction batteries shorted out can go REALLY wrong :o

With a modern 4 bank charger  + small fan / duct I don't have any concerns.  Battery bank will be fused and covered as well. But yes, a massive short will go kaboom.  Saw a photo many years ago where a guy had built an RC submarine with Wet cells. Everything closed up while it charged! Next morning tested the engine without venting and had an immediate explosion, with battery plates embedded in the ceiling overhead. Only 12V x 4 AH capacity. Lucky he wasn't standing over it.

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3 hours ago, USA 5184 said:

I had an Irwin 37 and it was extremely poor quality. Looks like the competition models were a little nicer though. That said it is a 46 year old boat that is not worth much of anything even in good condition. Check the standing rigging, check the bulkheads, check the keel/hull joint, and check the rudder shaft.

slap a $250 outboard motor mount on the transom, then find a $250 9.9 or 15hp on craigslist and call it a day! glass up all the through hulls and you'll have a worry free simple day-sailor

Unfortunately in the Dallas Forth Area (or within 6 hours drive) a 10 year old 9.9 long shaft goes for about $1,200. Good older (but not ancient) outboards are very hard to find. Older motors also tend to lose their cowels to light fingers a lot in this area.

Thanks for the suggestions - they are very valid. I don't have any illusions about the value of the boat. This is probably going to just be in our possession for 5 years, at which point is  sold for about 2k after us putting about 3k purchased items into, and probably 2k of stuff we have lying around. E.g. I have almost unused sails from a similar boat, a couple of self tailing winches, cheat on bulkhead panel wood work with a veneer so it is pleasant for us but not major work, the motor solution etc. It is also possible old boats may go up a little in value in this area, as there aren't all that many left in a recoverable state like this one.

The interior build is certainly poor - hasn't aged all that well, and there is a multitude of holes from various items that have been added / removed over the years. 

The rig / rigging is good. All but one halyard is fine. Keel  / Hull is fine. No significant slop in the rudder. Boat is very dry. I will probably jack up a temp compression post and remove / inspect the existing base plate sitting on the grid. Has significant layered corrosion at the edges and a noticeable depression in the middle.

The interloper still has personal effects on board so I haven't gone hog wild yet. 

 

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I have an 86lb 24v electric outboard on my 23'er.  Most days I don't use my gas outboard (3.5kn vs 6kn). The other benefit of electric is that you can add just a smidge of power in effective silence - great on super low wind days.  Really, if I didn't harbor illogical dreams of doing coastal sailing on my lakeboat, I'd go electric only.

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I'm no expert, but for your use and the lake location, it does seem like electric makes the most sense.

And it seems that your intended use would be just about the worst possible duty for an IC engine.  It would never warm up unless you motored it for a long time just for that purpose.  Fuel gets bad sitting around too. 

Good luck!

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3 hours ago, bay_cloud said:

I have an 86lb 24v electric outboard on my 23'er.  Most days I don't use my gas outboard (3.5kn vs 6kn). The other benefit of electric is that you can add just a smidge of power in effective silence - great on super low wind days.  Really, if I didn't harbor illogical dreams of doing coastal sailing on my lakeboat, I'd go electric only.

Yes, we have done that too. Just a little electric push to help the sails take shape. 

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2 hours ago, dfw_sailor said:

Yes, we have done that too. Just a little electric push to help the sails take shape. 

Oh, I didn’t know you were a racer.

Ahem. 

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On 3/12/2019 at 5:59 PM, Mr. Ed said:

Oh, I didn’t know you were a racer.

Ahem. 

Lol!

Unfortunately on this lake if the wind is that dead during an afternoon race, we would just quit the race and go fishing. Very unusual to have wind pickup during the day before 5.00pm. Do get a lake / land effect about 6pm until 10pm though.

No seabreeze :(

This morning would have been fun though 60 kt straight line ahead of a storm line, about 5.30am. 

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9 hours ago, dfw_sailor said:

Lol!

Unfortunately on this lake if the wind is that dead during an afternoon race, we would just quit the race and go fishing. Very unusual to have wind pickup during the day before 5.00pm. Do get a lake / land effect about 6pm until 10pm though.

No seabreeze :(

This morning would have been fun though 60 kt straight line ahead of a storm line, about 5.30am. 

That was quite a blow. The dock my future boat is on moved about 10 feet in all that wind.

Jim

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Word of warning: I posted the high res version of the pics.

The deck / cabin has been partly worked on. At some stage someone painted it in white, over beige, and then someone else decided to take off most of the white, in prep for another paint job. Not too much spider cracks, but a decent amount of rub wear in the usual places, epoxy plugs in old hardware positions etc. Someone has spilt a solvent in the cockpit, with a small section of damage on a seat , side wall, and eaten into the gel coat about  18" along one side of the floor.  

20190315_180902.jpg

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I am confused by a stuck? slide with a rope hanging off it, about 1/3 the way up the *outside* of the furler track. It is a CDi furler, with twin tracks / feeds on the inside, and a single slot without feeder on the other side. I have a volunteer for going up in the chair to take a better look at the top of the furler, check out other stuff while there of course.

Will be creating a new thread related to the remodel, and fitting electric. Might be a week or so - work is a priority for the next 10 days or so.

 

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On 3/10/2019 at 5:34 PM, dfw_sailor said:

This was not planned. It appeared on CL yesterday afternoon. Its not a project boat, but not pristine by any stretch either. Inside is a bit rough in places, more cosmetic than anything. Bottom / Topsides re done 4 years ago. Deck Cabin roof has largely been prepped for a repaint. Basically it was someone elses project where most external cosmetic work is nearly done, but the project partners had a bust up, and the elderly owner said it is time to go. Reasonably good sails, good overall inventory. I also have all sorts of suitable sails from parting out other boats of similar vintage & size, with comparable dimensions. Plus extra stuff I have parted out over time. We might do some club racing, but really it is intended for day sailing / overnighting on Lake Ray Hubbard Texas (approx 4 miles x 5 miles). When the weather is good we sail 4 - 5 days and evenings per week, as we live 2 mins from the marina. 

The $1 price did not include a motor. The Atomic 4 was removed and rebuilt and is being offered for $1k. 

Because the lake is relatively small, little engine use is required (in and out of small marina), plus maybe a few times a year having to motor say 3 miles due to zero wind.

I figure my options are:

- Buy the atomic for the 1K and spend a weekend dropping it back in. Because of Marina / Lake rules, I will possibly have to pay $200 - $400 for crane work to drop the motor in. 

- Buy the atomic for 1k and onsell it at a higher price (? not much more though), and spend $1.5k - 2.5k electric conversion (10hp brushed industrial DC, 48 volt lead acid bank, good charging system and good control system). It could be the prices I have in mind are not achievable any more. Turn Key system kits run to about 5k. I have an electrical / mechanical & sailing background so I can do much by myself.

We have a Merit 22 (sadly its going to have to go, unless I can find a trailer for it - very scarce around here) - but we have got used to just using a trolling outboard (Minkota endura c55 which is underpowered but was just about sufficient for normal use. Had it running for 3 years).

Still in shock.... But wife pushed me into getting it when we saw it in the dark last night and this morning in daylight before doing the paperwork. I'm happy it was a shared decision. 

Suggestions?

 

If you are sailing it on a lake, a better propulsion system might be a 6 horse long shaft outboard.  Much easier to install, and when something goes wrong you just drop it off at the local repair shop.  There are always a bunch on craigslist that run just fine.  Benefit is that the engine area can become storage, which 30 foot boats always need more of.  The engine area tends to be just right for a nice size igloo cooler.

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9 hours ago, Grrr... said:

If you are sailing it on a lake, a better propulsion system might be a 6 horse long shaft outboard.  Much easier to install, and when something goes wrong you just drop it off at the local repair shop.  There are always a bunch on craigslist that run just fine.  Benefit is that the engine area can become storage, which 30 foot boats always need more of.  The engine area tends to be just right for a nice size igloo cooler.

Understand completely. Not much going around here in Dallas Fort worth for a reasonable price. For me electric will be a fun project :)

I do a lot of electrical with my product design and manufacture so it is of interest to me. Also, as old as the Irwin 30 is, it has a very nice profile so my heart doesn't want to spoil it. 

Appreciate the input though!

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On 3/22/2019 at 1:27 PM, Grrr... said:

If you are sailing it on a lake, a better propulsion system might be a 6 horse long shaft outboard.  Much easier to install, and when something goes wrong you just drop it off at the local repair shop.  There are always a bunch on craigslist that run just fine.  Benefit is that the engine area can become storage, which 30 foot boats always need more of.  The engine area tends to be just right for a nice size igloo cooler.

There's a lot to be said for this, even though it wrecks the yachtiness.

Another advantage is no drag when raised.

But it's big and ugly, and sticks out a lot.  Mine is nearly 5' tall.  Not super-heavy, but bigger than you want to deal with lifting on and off all the time. 

If you leave it on your boat...  outboards get stolen a lot, maybe why they're always on Craigslist. 

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Outboard will work fine on lake that does not get rough will NOT stay in water on rough weather

PA312583.jpg

Owning A 1970 CAL 29 with the original A4 still fine with one valve job during the refit its and EPIC JOB to get the motor back in in a manner that will pass a survey and be safe 

Your more or less dealing with a mess like this from and electric and fuel system standpoint

PB272602.jpg

And you need to get back to something like this

2011_04040033.jpg

Even getting back to functional gauges is money and work BUT i needed long-term saltwater reliability and in my case it was the best choice    

2011_04300014.jpg

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On 3/11/2019 at 9:26 AM, dfw_sailor said:

Thanks everyone - Y'all have talked me back into electric :)

A bit more research this morning - brushed DC 48v ~$500.

 

 

Ummm, just buy an old fork lift motor for under $100. Lots of videos on YT to show you how. If you really want to go DIY, build your battery pack out of used 18650 Lithium Ion batteries salvaged from old laptop battery packs. You don't even have to do any soldering if you use assembly kits like Viruzend.

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Work has been getting the best of me for the last 4 weeks, and will likely continue for a few more weeks like this.

So, lack of time plus a bonus find yesterday means I will go with gas (outboard) for this summer, and revisit electric in fall. Thanks for everyone's input - it has been great.

Found various items such as 30hp bracket, evinrude yachtwin 9.9 hp - appears to be in good condition, run within last year ok, 3 gallon fuel tank, ritchie compass (near new), extra sound speakers and more.

Boat these were sourced on about to be destroyed. Always be nice to your Marina :)

I'm not above scrounging. No matter how many hours I work I don't make more money in the immediate sense - long term payoff.

No regrets about the Irwin 30. Mainly cosmetic work - other than a frozen prop shaft - another reason for going with gas for this summer. 

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On 3/23/2019 at 7:14 PM, blurocketsmate said:

There's a lot to be said for this, even though it wrecks the yachtiness.

Another advantage is no drag when raised.

But it's big and ugly, and sticks out a lot.  Mine is nearly 5' tall.  Not super-heavy, but bigger than you want to deal with lifting on and off all the time. 

If you leave it on your boat...  outboards get stolen a lot, maybe why they're always on Craigslist. 

Given I might have a functional 9.9 long shaft at no cost, I can put up with the look for this summer. Electric will become a project for winter. 

 

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59 minutes ago, Kenny Dumas said:

I’ve got a 4:1 block off the back stay to lift my 10 hp. Start in the up position, easy to drop when it starts

@Kenny Dumas Do you have a picture of this setup. Mine is just a rope and it's a PITA to raise and lower. I do have a stern pulpit that this could be mounted to.
Jim

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Picture a small 4:1 vang for ~20 ftr. I have a split bridle backstay for the top and the bottom attaches to the outboard bracket   Cam cleat makes it nice. 

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