Paul Koch

Rapido Trimarans - 2 x New Folding Models Coming !

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Hi Everyone , Rapido Trimarans are currently developing 2 new Folding Trimarans that will fold for marina berthing .

They will be an exciting addition to the fleet of Rapidos led by our flagship the Rapido 60 ! 

RT40 Aft Cockpit 031719.pdf       RAPIDO50_Interior_Arrangement_240718 (1).pdf   RT40 Aft Cabin 031719.pdf

If you want know more email paul@rapidotrimarans.com

YES , I bought an add !

 

898345917_perspectiveview.thumb.png.62b2a643fd598488069253fc1b7465e9.png

                                                                                                                              RAPIDO 40

 

1324792388_Rapido50perspective.thumb.jpg.d5a5de6c95f27892cd3d58cb76830816.jpg

                                                                                                                                RAPIDO 50

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Really nice to see the development in the bigger trimarans for  "normal" use.

 

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At last - some offshore trimarans to go play with!

How soon?

How much?

How heavy?

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Hi Boardhead,

Depends on the options selected what the weight and price is , obviously options cost more and weigh more !

Rapido 40  US$450,000 to $600,000 for a boat with too much stuff for me ! I personally like a simple light weight fast boat ! Early weight Estimate 3700 Kg

Rapido 50 US$800,000 to $1,200,000  6500 Kg 

Rapido 60 US$1,400,000 to US$1,800,000 with all bells and whistles .   9800 Kg

Expect first Rapido 50 to be launched by early 2020 and Rapido 40 shortly after  though we are highly motivated to get them out sooner . We just bought a big CNC Robot to speed up the tooling !

 

 

 

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     Excellent, I wish you Good Luck with all three and can’t wait to see the 40 in person, hopefully a bare bones, performance version.

     I respect the fact that you have to offer all the bells and whistles for the marina based just talking fast brigade but more is always less for true performance. 

     Hopefully  you can persuade an owner to go for a well dressed shell and remind the sailing world just how much fun a truly fast offshore 40’ tri can be.

     Development of high performance 40’ multihulls has been going in the wrong direction for a long time.

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The Rapido 40 looks awesome! 

Is fully foiling, like the D&A F10 from the same designer, an option on this boat? What is her estimated performance - any polars?

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2 hours ago, Nets said:

The Rapido 40 looks awesome! 

Is fully foiling, like the D&A F10 from the same designer, an option on this boat? What is her estimated performance - any polars?

Maybe in the future when the technology is more user friendly to average sailors ! But initially it has long C foils which will give a lot of lift . We don't have polars yet but expect the performance to be very good , certainly better than almost all 40 ft cruising multihulls!

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Really great to see the first drawings of the Rapido 40. It is along the lines what I've waiting for some time. On the web site it says "Intracoastal Waterway"  - What category will it be? What offshore/ocean capability will it have?

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On 3/20/2019 at 6:06 PM, Paul Koch said:

Maybe in the future when the technology is more user friendly to average sailors ! But initially it has long C foils which will give a lot of lift . We don't have polars yet but expect the performance to be very good , certainly better than almost all 40 ft cruising multihulls!

Really nice to get the board out of the living space too.  Will the 50 and 60 go that was in the future?

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7 hours ago, fredriktham@gmail.com said:

Really great to see the first drawings of the Rapido 40. It is along the lines what I've waiting for some time. On the web site it says "Intracoastal Waterway"  - What category will it be? What offshore/ocean capability will it have?

Maybe that is confusing ! We are keeping the mast height at 65 ft off the water  so it fits under all the bridges in the intracoastal waterway . The design is for a ocean going boat that you can sail anywhere . Will be built to CE Cat A . It will also fold up with the floats vertical , eliminating the old Corsair issue of crap growing on the sides when folded and left in a marina .

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Thanks for the clarification. I was concerned there for a while that when finally someone went to build something in the 40 foot space that it wasn't going to be ocean capable :)!

A few other thoughts:

No nav station?

Not a lot of storage or hangers for wet weather gear or is it just missing on the drawings?

The aft berths in the aft cockpit version - looks like the head of whoever is in it will basically be on the floor of the cockpit. Not a great place to be on a passage?

 

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7 hours ago, fredriktham@gmail.com said:

Thanks for the clarification. I was concerned there for a while that when finally someone went to build something in the 40 foot space that it wasn't going to be ocean capable :)!

A few other thoughts:

No nav station?

Not a lot of storage or hangers for wet weather gear or is it just missing on the drawings?

The aft berths in the aft cockpit version - looks like the head of whoever is in it will basically be on the floor of the cockpit. Not a great place to be on a passage?

 

There is a small space for electronics and navigation equipment . If you still need to use charts , use the saloon table , all boats are a compromise ! The head of the person in the aft bunk is is in the cabin , and the door can be closed , not the cockpit , their legs are under the seat in the cockpit , actually would be quite comfortable as your head is closer to the centre of the boat . 

Best bunk at sea will be the saloon settee with feet facing forward especially if racing at speed .

You could hang your wet weather gear on the bulkhead under the overhang of the cabin , usually a very dry place on a Rapido Trimaran .

 

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Are you planning to build the R40 in carbon?

image.png

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2 hours ago, Nets said:

Are you planning to build the R40 in carbon?

image.png

YES !  The first 2 boats will be built in all Carbon and we will do the the next couple in all Carbon at the same price if you get in quick ! We will also offer a base detuned version in glass with a alloy rig for the guys who don't want the performance . Obviously all structural bits will stay in Carbon .

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16 hours ago, EarthBM said:

How does the folding system work?

All will become clear with the passage of time !

It is simple to fold , unique , innovative and super strong !

Sorry , cant say more at the moment !

But we will not build anything that is not bulletproof and reliable !

And we have very experienced boat builders , engineers and designers all adding their wisdom to this project !

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Is it two separate bunks or a double in the aft cabin version?

Any plans for an all electric version?

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30 minutes ago, fredriktham@gmail.com said:

Is it two separate bunks or a double in the aft cabin version?

Any plans for an all electric version?

Where does this fascination for electric propulsion come from when talking about a boat that isn't intended to be a marina queen or daysailer?

Electric = more complication, more cost, STILL an IC engine for the generator or else the need for days, not hours, to recharge via solar.  Electric only makes sense for limited use with easily accessible shore power.  There IS a case for that, but 40 and 50' offshore trimarans???   Color me jade-d....

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3 hours ago, Veeger said:

Where does this fascination for electric propulsion come from when talking about a boat that isn't intended to be a marina queen or daysailer?

Electric = more complication, more cost, STILL an IC engine for the generator or else the need for days, not hours, to recharge via solar.  Electric only makes sense for limited use with easily accessible shore power.  There IS a case for that, but 40 and 50' offshore trimarans???   Color me jade-d....

Word. 

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The most complicated thing on any boat with an IC aux engine is the IC aux engine. You could have solar, wind, and/or hydro, in addition to shore power. Most boats stay near home and have shore power at home. Most times they go farther, they can afford to sacrifice some speed to do hydro gen.

Just because you are familiar with them and used to managing them doesn't make them any less complicated or easier to manage.

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If electric propulsion ever make sense - it will be on a fast trimaran; its not cheaper but  to get rid of the diesel system is worth a lot.... 

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11 hours ago, Veeger said:

Where does this fascination for electric propulsion come from when talking about a boat that isn't intended to be a marina queen or daysailer?

Electric = more complication, more cost, STILL an IC engine for the generator or else the need for days, not hours, to recharge via solar.  Electric only makes sense for limited use with easily accessible shore power.  There IS a case for that, but 40 and 50' offshore trimarans???   Color me jade-d....

I can give a lot of reasons but did you ever have the oil sump empty its contents into the bilge? What can I say - there is no oil sump on an electric engine.

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3 hours ago, fredriktham@gmail.com said:

 

I can give a lot of reasons but did you ever have the oil sump empty its contents into the bilge? What can I say - there is no oil sump on an electric engine.

I have yet to hear from anyone doing extended cruising that they liked the system or that it was robust and practical. Heard a number of folks say it wasn’t. Unless just doing near home and onshore/coastal hops where they plugged in frequently. And to be honest, though not sure it’s fair, I am less concerned about your scenario and more concerned about a run away batt bank fire.

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Hi Gents,

Just a few words as we did not buy the adds ;)

We have used good electric outboard - not marketing bla bla - can be run on 24 / 36 / 48 V, negative on plastic parts, direct drive, high efficiency, etc. 

But for the bigger boats we simply plan ... diesels :D

Have good day,

 

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 I'm all for getting rid of the IC noise and hassle but to merely exchange one set of issues for another.  Charging, range, battery concerns (they aren't 'clean', nor green in the manufacturing stage)

Salty environments and electricity are notoriously at war with one another and the complexity of a modern Li technology battery is mind boggling.  It's no longer as simple has having a heavy black box in the bowels of the boat with a couple wires coming off of it.

Hydro generation really requires two things to be effective.  Boat speed (usually at least 6-8 kts) and the willingness to sacrifice some of that boat speed to generate juice.  So practically, you need even MORE boat speed to get to and maintain the speeds req'd while generating.

Apart from dedicated ocean racers and high performance multihulls, most cruiser types don't spend very much time at the higher speeds.

I'm leaning pretty heavily toward a fuel cell as a means to supplement my solar on winter or rain days...

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I have a small fuel cell on my tri for rain days in spring and autumn and I am very content.

Next step would be a saloon i e I am looking for a 40 foot tri! 

fuel cell

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The efficiency loss in a diesel operating at the less than optimal RPM 95% of the time alone makes a generator - electric motor system better. In theory.

In practice we probably don’t yet have a system implementation at the cost and debugging point that makes it more competitive than diesels. It’s a coordination failure (aka chicken-egg problem). 

 

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Part of it depends on the mindset too:
People use to sail/cruise without an engine at all so if you compare electric propulsion to that instead of a diesel inboard, it's suddenly a lot more favorable! An electric motor is also definitely a lot simpler and less maintenance than an IC motor with a lot less than can go wrong!
The main difference is the lack of familiarity from most of the cruisers out there: if we didn't have IC motors and someone just invented it today, I think it would be a pretty hard sell: crazy complex machine with tons of moving parts, loud, requiring toxic and explosive chemicals, poking holes in the hull, spewing hot, toxic gases, you get the picture...
The only thing IC has going for it is the energy storage density and the only reason it's palatable is because the solutions to all the inherent issues have been refined over many decades to the point that we aren't really aware of them (or at least used to them and accept them).
Fuel cells are another interesting one: simple principle of operation but tricky and not mature technology but in theory miles ahead of IC.

If you ditched the diesel and basically sailed all the time and only treated aux propulsion as something you rarely used, then electric could make sense on a long range cruiser... But that's obviously not for everyone! It would help to have a boat that sails well (including in light air) and you also need the skills/balls to go with it.

The other time electric makes sense is if you have a lot of systems already (i.e. on a big fancy boat with electric everything) and propulsion just becomes another "load".

One more scenario that could be practical *again not for everyone) would be if you had a tender with a big OB and had it "connect" to the mothership like a traditional OB "sled" (that would be easier to do on a cat). In this case you could either ditch the prop on the mothership altogether or use electric and have the dinghy OB as your "extended range" option and ditch the generator.

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CF has/had a long running thread in its multihull section.  Its pretty contentious for CF but some folks there like their EP.  Lots of info, some appeared to pretty empirical.   One guy is building a big cat with em.  I think his handle was Big Beaky but I can't find him or the thread now.  Maybe it got so bad it was deleted.   There are other threads there though.

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I guess the advantage of the propshaft over a saildrive is weight? How much do you save, if I might ask?

Oh, and a rough idea of the time to raise the amas? An hour, or can you streamline that at all?

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18 hours ago, dcnblues said:

I guess the advantage of the propshaft over a saildrive is weight? How much do you save, if I might ask?

Oh, and a rough idea of the time to raise the amas? An hour, or can you streamline that at all?

There are a few advantages having a shaft drive , reliability , weight about 20 Kg (44 lbs) lighter , but the biggest plus is the ability to centralise the weight of the engine closer to the middle of the boat which improves the motion when sailing a lot . I realistically expect that we will be able to fold both the 40 and the 50 in under 10 minutes start to finish !

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On 4/12/2019 at 1:55 AM, Airwick said:

One more scenario that could be practical *again not for everyone) would be if you had a tender with a big OB and had it "connect" to the mothership like a traditional OB "sled" (that would be easier to do on a cat). In this case you could either ditch the prop on the mothership altogether or use electric and have the dinghy OB as your "extended range" option and ditch the generator.

see Tenders on http://harryproa.com/?p=1747.  Pretty easy to do something similar on the tri, if you removed it for folding and offset the weight with stuff in the other outrigger.  

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On 4/11/2019 at 10:27 AM, Kalimotxo said:

I have a small fuel cell on my tri for rain days in spring and autumn and I am very content.

Next step would be a saloon i e I am looking for a 40 foot tri! 

fuel cell

You could fit several of those fuel cells in Skateaway and not weigh it down much at all. 

And it is an awesome tri!

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By the way if anyone is interested in talking about Rapido Trimarans I will be at our stand at Le Grande Motte International Multihull Show from the 24th April till the 28th April ! Get me on Whats-App +84 939 040 201 or email me paul@rapidotrimarans.com

Rapido2.jpg

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On 4/14/2019 at 9:08 PM, Paul Koch said:

I realistically expect that we will be able to fold both the 40 and the 50 in under 10 minutes start to finish !

Holy Crap! I can't imagine you're not going to have very hot sellers! Can't wait to see a demo on that! Congratulations (and especially to your engineers) on a ripping design!

I'm sure money's tight, but do remember that paying a pro photographer for a few dozen awesome high def images can really help bring in those new buyers. A) People get obsessed with boats, B, people have big high def computer screens. Our screens are starving for beautiful high def images of your gorgeous toy!

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On 4/12/2019 at 6:56 PM, eric1207 said:

CF has/had a long running thread in its multihull section.  Its pretty contentious for CF but some folks there like their EP.  Lots of info, some appeared to pretty empirical.   One guy is building a big cat with em.  I think his handle was Big Beaky but I can't find him or the thread now.  Maybe it got so bad it was deleted.   There are other threads there though.

Ok I stumbled across that CF EP thread under Oceanvolt:  Link.  Get some coffee and a comfy chair.

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You have some great looking well designed/equipped boats there with Rapido Paul.  Best of luck at the show! 

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Paul was formerly with Corsair. I LOVED the layout of the Corsair 37 when I stepped on it at a boatshow. It seemed like the perfect daysailer / weekender. For years I've been obsessed with Gunboats as my dream cruiser, but here in SF, I'd want that 37. But in a perfect world, someone would just freshen the manufacturing a tad, maybe make it a tad bigger, and hey, check out that Seacart 30, maybe let me fly the hull a bit... Hey, Rapido 40 / 50, PERFECT! I'm stoked about the two new sizes. About the only question is will they fly the center hull. (I'm having a hard time imagining they won't, under ideal conditions, but I'd still want them even if they didn't). Folding in ten minutes is going to be a game / industry changer.

May I humbly suggest the first things you do when the 40 and 50 hit the water is the pro photoshoot, and a helicopter shoot which replicates Gunboat's 'Wipeout' video? These boats are going to be ridiculously fast, and that sells...

It's going to be a fun competition and debate about which is better: the boards on the amas on the 40, or the centerboard on the 50...

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11 hours ago, Paul Koch said:

3700 Kg light weight ! 

That's.... well.... pretty dang aggressive/impressive!  But one thing I've learned is that the definition of 'light' most often leaves off a lot of stuff we typically add before putting on crew, food and liquids (water, fuel).

What's the 'loaded' target displacement?

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Amazing helm setup!  A lot to like about this boat.

Any renders of it folded?

Hard side decks just for foredeck access in a seaway or some other benefits?

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Yeah , hopefully not too optimistic , I share your concern about quoted design weights and I would prefer not to quote anything yet , other than to say we will use every possible method at our disposal to keep the boat as light as possible . 

You did ask for a target displacement ! I know what we used to achieve with the Corsair 37 and with the methods we now use we feel that we can build a relatively lighter boat than back in the Corsair days !

Time will tell !

 

 

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On 4/20/2019 at 5:14 AM, Paul Koch said:

Hot off the drawing board ! Latest Rapido 40 Renderings ! 

rt40_001j2_render_side.jpg

rt40_001_j2_render_2.jpg

rt40_001_j2_render_fromaftfloat.jpg

rt40_001_j2_render_fullrigweather.jpg

rt40_001_j2_render_lowstbdbow.jpg

rt40_001_j2_render_perspectiveportstern.jpg

rt40_001_j2_render_stbdbow.jpg

 

I do like this boat. 

Nice job Guys. 

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On 3/18/2019 at 7:11 AM, Paul Koch said:

Depends on the options selected what the weight and price is , obviously options cost more and weigh more !

Rapido 40  US$450,000 to $600,000 for a boat with too much stuff for me ! I personally like a simple light weight fast boat ! Early weight Estimate 3700 Kg

So, for the Rapido 40 you are pricing similarly to the similar sized Seawind 1260.  Curious to know what your refutation of Ian Farrier's assertion that a catamaran makes more sense than a trimaran once you get to ocean cruising and the boat is 40 feet or more.  I don't actually recall why he said that--maybe because he was designing a 40 foot cat at the time:)

In case anyone cares, Triac composites (who make the rapido's), also made the SeaRail that I own.  Hopefully, the rapido's will get better inspections during construction.  I expect they will considering the differences in pricetag.  Just wish they had made my daggerboard trunk less leaky.  

 

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4 hours ago, mundt said:

Chair and tiller!  No steering wheel!

Definitely. A wheel on a 40’ is a deal killer.

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If you want to see how to live and sail beautifully on that size tri you need only watch some "trimaran Spirit" vids.  

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19 hours ago, MultiThom said:

So, for the Rapido 40 you are pricing similarly to the similar sized Seawind 1260.  Curious to know what your refutation of Ian Farrier's assertion that a catamaran makes more sense than a trimaran once you get to ocean cruising and the boat is 40 feet or more.  I don't actually recall why he said that--maybe because he was designing a 40 foot cat at the time:)

Did some digging in the f-boat archives and answered my own question...

Catamaran Pros and Cons

Catamarans over 35' begin to offer many advantages and become the cruising multihull of choice over 40', with considerably more room and better interior layouts being possible. With only two hulls versus three, they are also less complex and easier to build than a trimaran, and thus offer the most room for the least amount of effort and cost. There is some extra work required with the need for two rudders and daggerboards, and two engine installations, but the savings overall easily offset this.

A cruising catamaran will not perform or handle as well as the equivalent cruising trimaran, but once large enough to offer full standing headroom on the bridgedeck, without a high windage boxy cabin, their performance can be quite acceptable, and even impressive. However, they do need to be designed correctly, with a modern rig and systems, and be built with advanced methods to achieve the very necessary light weight.

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Catamarans might have made more sense over 35 ft than Trimarans for a performance cruising boat untill the Rapido's came along !

I might be biased but I believe we offer a very good comprimise between room and performance with our layouts with the saloon higher up in the hull than most preceding trimarans with the exception maybe of Chris Whites Hammerhead 54 . Biggest plus of a trimaran is the better motion at sea and the ability to really sail well upwind without the slaming that most cats have to put up with  !

 

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The thing you get on a 40 cat is that the hulls are big enough to give you 4 double bedrooms and bathrooms - then living room in the middle - it a perfect fit . 

You are up to a rather big tri to give that interior space. 

So trimarans is the sport-option - better performance but less space. 

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I'm with Seagull here. I have not yet seen a convincing trimaran layout with 3+ proper cabins. 

@Paul Koch is there a chance to cram two distinct cabins to port and starboard into the back? Or does the folding mechanism forbid a wider hull in that part? 

I would love to get a big Rapido/Newick/Hughes tri for our cruising plans, but I guess that it will have to be a catamaran for a few years to fulfill our space requirements. 

Paul 

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7 hours ago, SeaGul said:

The thing you get on a 40 cat is that the hulls are big enough to give you 4 double bedrooms and bathrooms - then living room in the middle - it a perfect fit . 

You are up to a rather big tri to give that interior space. 

So trimarans is the sport-option - better performance but less space. 

 

2 hours ago, toolbar said:

I'm with Seagull here. I have not yet seen a convincing trimaran layout with 3+ proper cabins. 

@Paul Koch is there a chance to cram two distinct cabins to port and starboard into the back? Or does the folding mechanism forbid a wider hull in that part? 

I would love to get a big Rapido/Newick/Hughes tri for our cruising plans, but I guess that it will have to be a catamaran for a few years to fulfill our space requirements. 

Paul 

Where, how and with whop do you folks cruise?  We searched forever for a bridgedeck cat with great sailing qualities, and simple systems, and it simply does not exist at any price.  While I do like the bridgedeck living of the cat (and potential for enclosed helm station) my gosh it comes with so many trade offs and so much extra space, weight, and systems that you don't need we finally got a big tri.  Love it.  Two staterooms, functional galley, great saloon, and really nice head/shower.  All with simple systems and great sailing.  And I can trailer it cross country.  So wish I had not wasted a decade looking for e bridgedeck cat.  YMMV.  Wish Rapido much success!!

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9 hours ago, Paul Koch said:

Biggest plus of a trimaran is the better motion at sea and the ability to really sail well upwind without the slaming that most cats have to put up with  !

I've never sailed on a tri.., but i have sailed a lot on bigger performance catamarans.

while i accept that the motion is better on a tri..., the catamaran hull designs are improving.., but i am talking about boats a lot bigger than 40ft,  It may not be possible to take advantage of the newer hull shapes on a 40ft cat without sacrificing too much in the accommodations.

 

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55 minutes ago, us7070 said:

I've never sailed on a tri.., but i have sailed a lot on bigger performance catamarans.

while i accept that the motion is better on a tri..., the catamaran hull designs are improving.., but i am talking about boats a lot bigger than 40ft,  It may not be possible to take advantage of the newer hull shapes on a 40ft cat without sacrificing too much in the accommodations.

 

Tough to have good hull shapes with accommodations that please everyone!

What has changed over the years in my opinion is the want /need to carry around a lot of stuff !

I personally think Catamaran design was way better back in the early eighties ! Most cats these days are fat and heavy from trying to cram too much in to them ! My old Parralax 11 designed by Robin Chamberlin was a way better sailing boat than most new cruising cats these days because it was kept simple and light ! Still did the job as a cruising boat , twin diesels , fridge freezer , every thing needed to cruise in comfort but still performed very well. 36 ft cruising cat that weighed 8400 lbs (4000 Kg )

Should be easy to do today but no one wants a light fast cat without every luxury it seems!

Still it slammed like hell upwind , was fast , but far from comfortable , maybe that is why I prefer Trimarans !

But on the other hand , it seems most cruising cat owners never sail upwind anyway !

 

 

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Simple, light, fast accommodating 40’ catamaran? Did any of you guys check out the TRT 1200, it really fits the bill quite well, was out sailing with my friend last Wednesday at speeds at least comparable to 35 - 40’ Dragonflies, Farriers, Corsairs etc.

The TRT is slow compared to my boat but here we go again with the need for light and simple for speed. The pressures for perceived comfort and luxury that owners, potential and actual, bring to commercial boat builders will continue to nix the the availability of really fast offshore trimarans.

I wish Rapido all the very best with their endeavors but it’s a tough wish to fulfill.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Where, how and with whop do you folks cruise? 

With kids that are growing up fast and a planned multi-year cruise, three cabins appear to be key feature to ensure family peace. 

If it was just me and the wife with occasional guests or a shorter cruise (last year we sailed for four month on the trimaran, that was still fine) three hulls would be my first choice. That's why we will keep the trimaran in storage, for when we return. 

Paul 

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33 minutes ago, toolbar said:

With kids that are growing up fast and a planned multi-year cruise, three cabins appear to be key feature to ensure family peace. 

If it was just me and the wife with occasional guests or a shorter cruise (last year we sailed for four month on the trimaran, that was still fine) three hulls would be my first choice. That's why we will keep the trimaran in storage, for when we return. 

Paul 

That makes sense Paul; I get it.  Our kids have grown and so 2 cabins is all we want.  Thank God as that keep the door open to a tri.

42 minutes ago, boardhead said:

Simple, light, fast accommodating 40’ catamaran? Did any of you guys check out the TRT 1200, it really fits the bill quite well, was out sailing with my friend last Wednesday at speeds at least comparable to 35 - 40’ Dragonflies, Farriers, Corsairs etc.

The TRT is slow compared to my boat but here we go again with the need for light and simple for speed. The pressures for perceived comfort and luxury that owners, potential and actual, bring to commercial boat builders will continue to nix the the availability of really fast offshore trimarans.

I wish Rapido all the very best with their endeavors but it’s a tough wish to fulfill.

Its really hard to explain this.  We had looked very long and hard at TRT when we were on our cat search.  But there is something "joy of sailing" related that you don't get in a big cat and its not about outright speed.  There is a responsiveness and a feeling to the tri... a joy to sail that I don't don't get in the bigger cats.  My wife would say exact same.  The cats can be as fast but its like helming a bus.  Fast bus but still a bus.  The Miata might actually be slower but its more fun to drive than the bus. And that one factor more than anything is what finally convinced us we were not buying a cat and instead bought a bigger tri.

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I totally agree Wess,  Tiller - our St Francis Cat is the current active option and the auto pilot steers her - all the time. Being a bigger boat with two (small) inboard diesels passage times are not that different from our trimaran but she is a snore compared

I will never tire of being wowed by the speed and responsiveness of the tri but it’s a younger guy’s tool and I well recall the day that I was having a blast driving her upwind in the mid teens through a decent chop when a cry from below announced my wife’s frustration at being pitched off the settee onto the floor whilst trying to read her book - she has been wowed enough!

Oh, I still have to say that 25 years ago and for more than a decade, the tri was a perfect fit.

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Market 1: liveaboard world cruisers with 3 kids.

Market 2: weekend husband+wife cruisers

I’d say Market 2 is 100x1000x larger than Market 1 in practice. However it’s hard to justify $600-800k cost for a weekend toy. So buyers rationalize boat purchase as a second home.

Rapido 40 (if displacement and cost projections pan out) is likely to be successful. But a clever marketing stratagem may be required.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

That makes sense Paul; I get it.  Our kids have grown and so 2 cabins is all we want.  Thank God as that keep the door open to a tri.

Its really hard to explain this.  We had looked very long and hard at TRT when we were on our cat search.  But there is something "joy of sailing" related that you don't get in a big cat and its not about outright speed.  There is a responsiveness and a feeling to the tri... a joy to sail that I don't don't get in the bigger cats.  My wife would say exact same.  The cats can be as fast but its like helming a bus.  Fast bus but still a bus.  The Miata might actually be slower but its more fun to drive than the bus. And that one factor more than anything is what finally convinced us we were not buying a cat and instead bought a bigger tri.

That’s a great analogy.  I had one of the first Miatas (1990) and a few since, but our “second” car was a minivan. If we had to go down to one car it would be the minivan.  The Rapido would be great if I brought at most half of my family...with the whole family its about finding the least boring cat / bus / minivan. (Our Sienna is perfectly serviceable and the vehicle of choice for many outings but never for just two of us)

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If "getting there is half the fun", then I'd say a big tri is the better cruiser for you.  If not and you just want to move your home from place to place, a big cat makes more sense--but then again, plane tickets and rental houses make the most sense (for me anyway). 

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12 hours ago, Wess said:

We searched forever for a bridgedeck cat with great sailing qualities, and simple systems, and it simply does not exist at any price.  

That seems to be the design brief for the MaineCat 38 - curious if you were able to check one out.  

Interesting to hear the comments on responsiveness and "fun to sail" aspect of the tri vs cat.  I've got much more limited multihull experience than most of you, but I suspect it's the feedback you get from the heeling angle of a tri, which is nice because it's familiar to mono sailers, and also more linear than a cat.  

I keep getting tempted by big cats like the Seawind 1160 since I know my wife and kids would have so much fun on one which means I'd probably get to spend more time on the boat.  But every time I see one sailing I reconsider.  Agree with the Miata comments - I've owned three NAs.  The Rapidos look fantastic!

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11 hours ago, Paul Koch said:

I personally think Catamaran design was way better back in the early eighties ! Most cats these days are fat and heavy from trying to cram too much in to them ! My old Parralax 11 designed by Robin Chamberlin was a way better sailing boat than most new cruising cats these days because it was kept simple and light ! Still did the job as a cruising boat , twin diesels , fridge freezer , every thing needed to cruise in comfort but still performed very well. 36 ft cruising cat that weighed 8400 lbs (4000 Kg )

 

9 hours ago, Wess said:

Its really hard to explain this.  We had looked very long and hard at TRT when we were on our cat search.  But there is something "joy of sailing" related that you don't get in a big cat and its not about outright speed.  There is a responsiveness and a feeling to the tri... a joy to sail that I don't don't get in the bigger cats.  My wife would say exact same.  The cats can be as fast but its like helming a bus.  Fast bus but still a bus.  The Miata might actually be slower but its more fun to drive than the bus. And that one factor more than anything is what finally convinced us we were not buying a cat and instead bought a bigger tri.

I agree with both of these. I don't have a good reaction to modern cruising catamarans, either how they look or how they sail, especially how they feel when sailing. A trimaran can feel like sailing a monohull, just faster and so much better control downwind. Plus there's a place to put the headstay and it only needs one daggerboard and one rudder.

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16 hours ago, toolbar said:

I'm with Seagull here. I have not yet seen a convincing trimaran layout with 3+ proper cabins. 

@Paul Koch is there a chance to cram two distinct cabins to port and starboard into the back? Or does the folding mechanism forbid a wider hull in that part? 

I would love to get a big Rapido/Newick/Hughes tri for our cruising plans, but I guess that it will have to be a catamaran for a few years to fulfill our space requirements. 

Paul 

 

http://www.multihulldesigns.com/designs_stock/71tri.html

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1 hour ago, Russell Brown said:

A trimaran can feel like sailing a monohull, just faster and so much better control downwind. 

Huh. Does that have value in and of itself? I suppose the dinghy I grew up in steeped me in monomaran-ish experience, but even then, I lusted after the Hobie 14s from scout camp, and got hours on them when I could. When I've crewed on boats in the Bay, I've taken what I could get (more monos avilble than multis) but when it comes to voting with my hard-earned dollars... every boat has been a multihull thus far, at least if it has been bigger than a kayak, canoe, or inflatable. When I'm dreaming, it is in multihulls.

I like sailing flat -- or flying a hull when conditions permit, and choosing[/i[ to tilt, rather than having to lean. I only have a week or so of offshore time on a 39' cat, and my 30' Tennant is still trailer-bound, so let me ask: what is it particularly that you dislike about modern cruising catamarans, how they look , sail, or feel when sailing? Is it just the motion, the centralized weight or low clearance of a centralized bridgedeck, or?

Randii

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I have some good experience with TRT1200 - mostly the GT version. A fantastic boat - lots of space - but driving it is more the bus feel - as again a fast trimaran is like a sports-car - or a R-bike.

Under 20ft - its cats that dominate - and a beach cat is all a multi can be - fast and fun, and relatively cheap. 

Passing 20ft and with the possibility for some interior space - gives us tris - still light fast and responsive.

At around 30ft you can have fast cats like Raider 30 - with some interior - but still fast and responsive if they are light and hav proper sails. 

At 40 - you can have a Formula 40 cat - or a condomaran, most tri is still performance orientated and fun. For the condomaran - it seems like all hope of good sailing is gone - but a danish multihull designer Lars Oudrup - MyCat - Havkatt - has a Lagoon 38 . went around the world with it and did well in ARC regatta. And outsails fast like bigger X boats in local regattas when its  fresh - even upwind - so all hope is not out even for these boats - given you get a good set of sail and want to use them. 

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Here is one heretical thought: my family wants to travel an extended period of time by boat.

Well informed analysis leads to a boat where no one touches the helm because it is boring to sail.

Am I to come to the rational conclusion to buy a motorboat and put two fabulous sailing dinghys on deck, that make everyone in my family smile?

:ph34r:

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Boring at the helm?    

 

 

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I’m certainly no multihull guru, but we do cruise on a tri, one we’ve owned for 9 years. The tri tells us when it’s not happy, like a mono. We can push it harder knowing that we will feel the boat getting overpowered before capsize is a concern. Perhaps that’s not true on tri’s designed to fly the main hull, but it is on our cruising tri. Did I mention we can sail at or above wind speed in light air with just main and jib? Or no brigedeck slamming, ever?

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10 hours ago, socalrider said:

That seems to be the design brief for the MaineCat 38 - curious if you were able to check one out.  

Interesting to hear the comments on responsiveness and "fun to sail" aspect of the tri vs cat.  I've got much more limited multihull experience than most of you, but I suspect it's the feedback you get from the heeling angle of a tri, which is nice because it's familiar to mono sailers, and also more linear than a cat.  

I keep getting tempted by big cats like the Seawind 1160 since I know my wife and kids would have so much fun on one which means I'd probably get to spend more time on the boat.  But every time I see one sailing I reconsider.  Agree with the Miata comments - I've owned three NAs.  The Rapidos look fantastic!

We considered both the MC 38 and 41.  Have friends with each.  Also considered the Seawind line.  But ultimately went the trimaran route.  For somebody who has not sailed a tri its really hard to grasp and I don't do a good job explaining it.  Sailing a decent performance cat is not as bad as Kalimotxo wonders below.  There are lots of things any of these boats - TRT, Seawind, MC, GB, HH, TS, Outremer, Catana, etc... do really really well at varied price points.  I could see myself owning one again.  Its less that all cats suck - they don't - its that the tri can be so amazingly wonderful.  After owning and sailing both (first cats then the tri) or my wife and I, having fallen in love with the sailing qualities of the tri, we just had to see if we could make one cruisable.  And we found a project that would not hurt the bank account and so gave it a go.  Sooooooo very glad we did.

If you have sailed dinghies and like tillers and want to cruise but haven't sailed a tri... go check one out!

2 hours ago, Kalimotxo said:

Here is one heretical thought: my family wants to travel an extended period of time by boat.

Well informed analysis leads to a boat where no one touches the helm because it is boring to sail.

Am I to come to the rational conclusion to buy a motorboat and put two fabulous sailing dinghys on deck, that make everyone in my family smile?

:ph34r:

 

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So watching that Verbatim/Bullfrog video (again) and having designed, built and sailed a boat so similar for so long I have to wonder how any commercial builder would feel at the prospect of one of their products being subjected to that kind of treatment. I took Chris White for a ride years ago and his comment at the end of the day - "It would be irresponsible to sell a boat built that lightly to the public!"

These are serious toys for driven people, not that popular today and perhaps a dying breed - but soooooooo much fun.

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14 hours ago, socalrider said:

That seems to be the design brief for the MaineCat 38 - curious if you were able to check one out.  

 

I think there will be a MC38 at our rally.  Come look it over.  Can't speak for the owner but he was looking for crew.  Easy drive from Seattle.  Ten bucks for pizza dinner.  Link here.  I'm leaving now, maybe maybe make contact via the email in the link   Apologies for being a tireless/tiresome promoter.

I do like the Rapido 40 though, hmmmmmm, my F31 is getting to be a lot of work for this old man, maybe.........

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1 hour ago, eric1207 said:

I think there will be a MC38 at our rally.  Come look it over.  Can't speak for the owner but he was looking for crew.  Easy drive from Seattle.  Ten bucks for pizza dinner.  Link here.  I'm leaving now, maybe maybe make contact via the email in the link   Apologies for being a tireless/tiresome promoter.

I do like the Rapido 40 though, hmmmmmm, my F31 is getting to be a lot of work for this old man, maybe.........

Wish I didn't have an already fully booked weekend or there'd be two 38's at your rally!

Having owned an F-28cc, a full on cruising cat and now the 38, I'd say the 38 is a pretty good bridge between the two.  With hulls only 3' wide at the lwl, a bit of wind pressure will depress the lee hull enough that you actually get a little heel going (for a cat).  The cable steering is so balanced and easy to sail with just two fingers like on a well balanced helm with tiller.  Having about 2/3rds of a full turn from hard over to hard over makes maintaining course a matter of turning the wheel rim a couple inches if needed.

However, Wess has found a very good solution for performance, feel and room.  If I had another cat, I'd really like to have a slightly longer (35,36') 'Gougeon 32' concept with about 10' beam.  Russ' 32 is probably the only cat with cruising capability (albeit spartan) that also looks to offer every bit of sailing enjoyment as a tri.

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The new Rapido tri's look splendid and I look forward to seeing the 40 up close.

Having just finished launching a new offshore tri and knowing of two other new tri owners who faced the same predicament ( 1 UK based and 1 in Australia ), I can fairly confidently say that at the moment, one of the biggest barriers for new offshore tri ownership will be lack of available insurance. We found cover in the end but it was not an easy task, terms are paved with extra conditions and it was pretty expensive for what you are getting. God forbid you want to race. One other owner had to withdraw from this years AZAB race because he could not get any terms for his older tri.

There's no doubt that trimarans are fast and fun but getting insurance companies to cover them comprehensively for offshore sailing is a major ball ache.

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1 hour ago, gurok said:

 

There's no doubt that trimarans are fast and fun but getting insurance companies to cover them comprehensively for offshore sailing is a major ball ache.

Actually doesn't have to be offshore racing, insurance for my dinky tri has all sorts of limitations to the point that racing and having damage due to racing would be something I wouldn't even go to the insurance company for (ie, self insurance)...which is another reason I don't race anymore (the others being fat, old, BTDT, and diabetic).  

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Comprehensive insurance used to be a good deal in the UK way back in the early 80’s when I first owned a trimaran, even including a short handed, double Atlantic crossing the premium was under $300 annually. I was shocked when it came time to place cover with an American company, four fold the cost just for coastal coverage, I guess the UK and Oz caught up.

If you build your own boat you are probably not going to let anyone else fix it so comprehensive coverage becomes pointless and liability insurance is a fraction of the cost. If you are not prepared to take the risk and self insure your own vessel why would you expect an insurance company to take the chance.

Sadly a procession of major losses by incompetent skippers have driven rates sky high, I recall reading a report of one total loss of a cruising cat run aground on a Bahamian reef whose direct route failed to take it into account - Columbus spotted it!

Insurance companies are in business to make a profit.

 

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Insurance for racing; never seen a car or bike that races with insurance..... If its not kind of "tour racing"  with a boat that is not a pure racer - have they any insurance?

 

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We currently own a Corsair C36 trimaran. Corsair F27 prior. US based.  We have never had issue getting insurance. Ever. Including racing. We had one claim (dismasted due to my stupidity) over 40 years of sailing and most of that is multis and most of that is in 2 trimarans. Been across the pond. All covered.

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It sounds like some of these boats are home-built.., or quite old.., or both...

even if it's not really home built.., but is from a small shop that only turned out a few boats, it's kind of the same thing.

boats like that are often not insurable - multihulls or monohulls.

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So Wess, how much did the rig cost and how much did you spend on insurance in 40 years?

I never made an insurance claim either in over 40 years including all that you mentioned but the majority in personally, not pro built, multihulls. Never had a problem finding coverage either.

Spent quite a lot of time fixing my pro built Cat in areas that certainly would have resulted in insurance claims had they not been remedied prior to failure instead of just paying the premium and  filing the claim.

Some amateur builders cruise extensively, I met a few on beautiful boats, others just like building and dreaming, some pass on unfinished projects, some pro built boats are excellent, others are crap, it’s all over the map.

I have encountered enough sailers who think it’s fair game to make multiple claims, often for their incompetence from that, to them, seemingly bottomless resource for me to consider whether I want to fund that system. 

Thankfully we have the right to decide what degree of risk we wish to insure and what degree of risk we wish to take.

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