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1917:  In the spring of 1917, a few things happened that shaped the world.  Some for the better, some for the worse:  The Russian Revolution, the Mexican Revolution, the first woman was elected to the US House of Representatives, but the critical moment was when the US decided to enter WWI on the side of the Allies and defeat the imperial longings of Germany and the Kaiser.  Thus began the American Century of active participation in the affairs of the world.  

100 years pass.  

2017:  In the spring of 2017, a few things happened that shaped the world.  Some for the better, some for the worse: The Chinese started their Belt and Road" project, the Brits voted for Brexit, but the critical moment was when Donald tRump assumed the *residency of the US and began the US  withdrawal from the world stage promoting isolationism, nationalism, and anti-environmentalism. 

Now, in ways big and small, the US is being set aside.  China becomes the world''s largest economy, the world moves on the Paris Accord without the US, Ethiopia refuses to send the 737 black box to the FAA, China moves into Venezuela, Russia sets the agenda for intermediate missiles in Europe, Korea ignores the US saber-rattling....and on and on.

All because a minority of a minority voted for a lying, narcissistic, greedy, white supremacist con man and stooge for dying industries.

Fuck us.

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9 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

I remember all the stories about the American collapse and Japan's emergence as that top world economic power in the 80's.

 

Isn't that special.

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Yep, Donnie has pulled up the drawbridge making the US a footnote in world politics.

China, Russia and to a lesser extent Europe have filled the vacuum that remained.

He’s playing checkers in a room full of Grandmasters and telling the folks back home that he’s winning.

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The sky is falling!  the sky is falling!

 

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Think about it this way, will America we world leaders with the ability to bully and take what it wants in 100 years, how about 200 or 500? Same goes for the couple of million chinless Mitch Turtle heads will they still be around then, what about  the bubbas? The rise of anti vaxx, anti science, shit in my nest environmental policies and "do you want fries with that coke " education level should ensure that you wont make it in any sense that you recognise today.

Long term thinking, thats what the magas cant do.

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

1917:  In the spring of 1917, a few things happened that shaped the world.  Some for the better, some for the worse:  The Russian Revolution, the Mexican Revolution, the first woman was elected to the US House of Representatives, but the critical moment was when the US decided to enter WWI on the side of the Allies and defeat the imperial longings of Germany and the Kaiser.  Thus began the American Century of active participation in the affairs of the world.  

100 years pass.  

2017:  In the spring of 2017, a few things happened that shaped the world.  Some for the better, some for the worse: The Chinese started their Belt and Road" project, the Brits voted for Brexit, but the critical moment was when Donald tRump assumed the *residency of the US and began the US  withdrawal from the world stage promoting isolationism, nationalism, and anti-environmentalism. 

Now, in ways big and small, the US is being set aside.  China becomes the world''s largest economy, the world moves on the Paris Accord without the US, Ethiopia refuses to send the 737 black box to the FAA, China moves into Venezuela, Russia sets the agenda for intermediate missiles in Europe, Korea ignores the US saber-rattling....and on and on.

All because a minority of a minority voted for a lying, narcissistic, greedy, white supremacist con man and stooge for dying industries.

Fuck us.

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think. I am not sure that things are as dire as you suggest. With the right leadership (and that is not just a case of anyone but Trump) the US can compete successfully with China and perhaps Europe and India over the next century but time is getting short. The right leadership is not just in the WH but in Congress and big business. 

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2 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

I remember all the stories about the American collapse and Japan's emergence as that top world economic power in the 80's.

 

I don't think anyone (with a brain) saw Japan as a thread in the same way China is a thread. You need only consider the relative size, resource base, and population of the two. Not too hard to imagine China with the world leading companies type of companies that Japan spawned. Add that to its geopolitical advantages and demography and it is impressive.

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1 minute ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think. I am not sure that things are as dire as you suggest. With the right leadership (and that is not just a case of anyone but Trump) the US can compete successfully with China and perhaps Europe and India over the next century but time is getting short. The right leadership is not just in the WH but in Congress and big business. 

I agree with your take, but the interesting thing is you said "compete successfully" which, for the last century we were not doing.  We simply led.  Led scientifically, economically, culturally, and certainly militarily.  Now, we seem to be throwing all our resources into military dominance, which is a long-term failing strategy, as the first three are by far more convincing and stable ways to show strength to the world and provide comfort and happiness to us USAns.

Not that I'm necessarily arguing for a single dominant nation as being automatically a good thing for the world.  

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Not to pick nits, but China is still second to the US when looking at nominal GDP. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

If you look at PPP, then China is first but PPP seems more relevant to per capita comparisons where China is way down the list 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

The sky is not falling quite yet. 

 

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Japan Inc was a propaganda movement to remove business regulations in the US. Not surprising that Nostradumbass fell for it.  The USA has 26x the land mass, over 2x the population and massive natural resources yet somehow Japan would rule the world?  Hey, they did build better cars.....

If it's true that competition benefits everyone then China is not a threat to the US, it's an opportunity.  Meanwhile Trump will be leaving soon and his footnote will be

mistakesdemotivator.jpeg?v=1416776264

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The USA: "The first nation that has gone from barbarism to decadence without an intervening period of civilization"----- Winston Churchill.

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Looking at China holistically is kind of silly at this point; some parts of rural China will probably never catch up GDP wise. Just like some parts of the US will never catch up; lots of small rural towns have no reason to exist anymore. In China the Pearl Delta, the Yangstze Delta, Beijing, and a number of the other urban areas will continue to grow in quality of life to match "the West".

At this point though, I'd say the US is doomed from elite cultural failure. Some parts will survive because there some really smart people out there kicking ass. It's just certain parts are doomed and it's a cultural mindset issue. For too long people - especially in certain business sectors - have focused on domestic enemys and domestic comparative advantage. You don't want unions because unions are bad; you don't want regulations because regulations are bad for you. If you were Boeing your goal was to eliminate all the domestic enemys - move production to a non-Union state; capture regulators. The rest of the world just served to feed money to your corporate coffers. This is the Donald Trump business mindset - highly rooted in, and stuck on rooting (in the Oz sense) one place - while the world feeds you money.

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1 hour ago, Happy said:

The USA: "The first nation that has gone from barbarism to decadence without an intervening period of civilization"----- Winston Churchill.

Winnie was a great wordsmith. 

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1 hour ago, LenP said:

Not to pick nits, but China is still second to the US when looking at nominal GDP. 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

If you look at PPP, then China is first but PPP seems more relevant to per capita comparisons where China is way down the list 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(PPP)_per_capita

The sky is not falling quite yet. 

 

I agree that exchange rate and PPP GDP measures each have their strengths and weaknesses. I think this thread is looking fairly longterm though and the trend is clear. Certainly China will never again have 12% annual growth, mature economies cannot, but if they settle in around 5%, with compounding that does the trick. We often forget that China's economy still has to evolve a lot. China's GDP comes (rounded) 8% from agriculture, 41% from industry (manufacturing and construction), and 52% from services. In the US the equivalent numbers are 1%, 19% and 80%. It is obvious that China's economy has a long way to go until it resembles an advanced Western one (numbers for Western Europe, Canada, Oz, Japan are similar to the US ones. You have to think about the kind of services growth that will occur in areas like banking, tourism, and entertainment. So far we have not thought about China as being that important globally in these areas but it is coming. China will not be seen just as the world's factory.

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Perhaps the biggest problem is that Americans don't see that there's a problem, by and large.....

 It's like the Dutch boy and the dike (Not dyke), or the little boy who cried "wolf!"....

 Look at your foot. See any fungus on your toenails? Nah! That's just because I didn't clip them last month!.....:rolleyes:

When the shit hits the fan there ain't gonna be no going back, only finding a new space.

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China’s GDP was never as good as the Chinese GDP.   Its phony,   That doesn’t man the American era isn’t over.   The British did great deeds in world war even after their era ended.    Rome endured long after Nero played his fiddle.   The US will endure long after we landed on the moon or invented the shoe phone.   Yet our era has ended.  

We have the most powerful military in the world, but unless we quickly conquer and loot the next five powers who. collectively spend the same resources, it is wasted money.    Our education is third rate.   Due to fear of foreigners and overreliance research,even once lauded American universities cease to be the destination of choice.   Do to politicians fearing facts and disliking research without clear profit our technological dominance dwindles faster then we can give it to China in short term deals.   Although we don’t take European vacations, our short term strategies, downsizing and outsourcing curtail our industrial strength.    Income inequality and lost potential of all those born poor eliminate our historic strength.   Lack of immigration prevents new vigor from supplementing trailer park lassitude.   

Our worst failing is not these detestable facts.  It’s the complacency of conservatives, as this list demonstrates.   As I tell my team, one cannot stand still or one falls behind as the world moves forward.   The day you cease to be hungry and think you have succeeded is the day you cease to be productive and become dead weight.    

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10 minutes ago, Mrleft8 said:

Perhaps the biggest problem is that Americans don't see that there's a problem, by and large.....

 It's like the Dutch boy and the dike (Not dyke), or the little boy who cried "wolf!"....

 Look at your foot. See any fungus on your toenails? Nah! That's just because I didn't clip them last month!.....:rolleyes:

When the shit hits the fan there ain't gonna be no going back, only finding a new space.

I believe putting my finger in a dyke likely to disappoint both me and the dyke.  

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7 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Don't hold back, tell us what you really think. I am not sure that things are as dire as you suggest. With the right leadership (and that is not just a case of anyone but Trump) the US can compete successfully with China and perhaps Europe and India over the next century but time is getting short. The right leadership is not just in the WH but in Congress and big business. 

If Trump wins a second term I'd say that's the end of the USA.

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Hoping for America’s failure is a tenet of the far left, which has been made more intense by the Trump election.  Capitalism is a failed system in their view.

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20 hours ago, Lark said:

I believe putting my finger in a dyke likely to disappoint both me and the dyke.  

It depends doesn't it?

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1 hour ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:
22 hours ago, Lark said:

I believe putting my finger in a dyke likely to disappoint both me and the dyke.  

It depends doesn't it?

I sincerely hope that you won't tell us about it if you ever put your finger in a dyke's Depends

-DSK

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20 hours ago, SloopJonB said:

If Trump wins a second term I'd say that's the end of the USA.

If not the end then a much further slide into Alice’s rabbit hole. It will take decades, if not generations, to recover. While that is going on China and perhaps India will be supplanting us. We could well become the modern equivalent of the British Empire when it once ruled the world but is now a former shadow of itself.

 

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20 hours ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

If I had a dime for every time some dipshit wrote off America. 

If I had a dime for every stupid post you and your "Friends of Malarkey" have written I could take a cruise all expenses paid.

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On 3/19/2019 at 6:16 AM, Left Shift said:

1917:  In the spring of 1917, a few things happened that shaped the world.  Some for the better, some for the worse:  The Russian Revolution, the Mexican Revolution, the first woman was elected to the US House of Representatives, but the critical moment was when the US decided to enter WWI on the side of the Allies and defeat the imperial longings of Germany and the Kaiser.  Thus began the American Century of active participation in the affairs of the world.  

100 years pass.  

2017:  In the spring of 2017, a few things happened that shaped the world.  Some for the better, some for the worse: The Chinese started their Belt and Road" project, the Brits voted for Brexit, but the critical moment was when Donald tRump assumed the *residency of the US and began the US  withdrawal from the world stage promoting isolationism, nationalism, and anti-environmentalism. 

Now, in ways big and small, the US is being set aside.  China becomes the world''s largest economy, the world moves on the Paris Accord without the US, Ethiopia refuses to send the 737 black box to the FAA, China moves into Venezuela, Russia sets the agenda for intermediate missiles in Europe, Korea ignores the US saber-rattling....and on and on.

All because a minority of a minority voted for a lying, narcissistic, greedy, white supremacist con man and stooge for dying industries.

Fuck us.

As soon as you use ridiculous spellings like tRump you declare you are not interested in a discussion of any sorts. You are simply declaring your blinkered position and waiting for those that agree with it to come along and give you a nice little pat on the back and join you sweet little circle jerk. What you seem to not understand is that it makes your supposed argument as silly as the crap you moan about from Trump.

As for your comments, they are pathetic and childish.

On 3/19/2019 at 8:48 AM, Left Shift said:

I agree with your take, but the interesting thing is you said "compete successfully" which, for the last century we were not doing.  We simply led.  Led scientifically, economically, culturally, and certainly militarily.  Now, we seem to be throwing all our resources into military dominance, which is a long-term failing strategy, as the first three are by far more convincing and stable ways to show strength to the world and provide comfort and happiness to us USAns.

Not that I'm necessarily arguing for a single dominant nation as being automatically a good thing for the world.  

What the fuck are you on. The US ran the world through gunboat diplomacy for the last century when possible, ie most of the time. You could do the first three because of the threat from you military. Deal with us or we will fuck you up was how it went. Our culture is the best, follow it or we will fuck you up. Our democracy is the best, follow or we will fuck you up. You spent a long time being exceptional because after WW II you were the only country left with a decent manufacturing base left in the world and you had managed to ensure GB was bankrupt. You even managed to 'persuade' lots of German and Japanese scientists to come work for you. The world has been catching up ever since and finding you were not as exceptional as you liked to think for quite a while now.

Now you think it is all to do with Trump. That the fall from the self built pedestal has only occurred since 2017. That since this date the US has decided to just spend it all on a big military and ignored the scientific, economic and cultural. Eyes wide shut for so long that, upon opening them, you need to deny that the present situation has been coming for a long time. Because to admit this would mean having to admit you had been drinking the cool aid for so long you couldn't see. So now it can be neatly planted in tRumps lap. At least I suppose it makes you feel good that it wasn't anything to do with you. Delusional is about the only word I could come up with.

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4 minutes ago, Gissie said:

As soon as you use ridiculous spellings like tRump you declare you are not interested in a discussion of any sorts. You are simply declaring your blinkered position and waiting for those that agree with it to come along and give you a nice little pat on the back and join you sweet little circle jerk. What you seem to not understand is that it makes your supposed argument as silly as the crap you moan about from Trump.

As for your comments, they are pathetic and childish.

What the fuck are you on. The US ran the world through gunboat diplomacy for the last century when possible, ie most of the time. You could do the first three because of the threat from you military. Deal with us or we will fuck you up was how it went. Our culture is the best, follow it or we will fuck you up. Our democracy is the best, follow or we will fuck you up. You spent a long time being exceptional because after WW II you were the only country left with a decent manufacturing base left in the world and you had managed to ensure GB was bankrupt. You even managed to 'persuade' lots of German and Japanese scientists to come work for you. The world has been catching up ever since and finding you were not as exceptional as you liked to think for quite a while now.

Now you think it is all to do with Trump. That the fall from the self built pedestal has only occurred since 2017. That since this date the US has decided to just spend it all on a big military and ignored the scientific, economic and cultural. Eyes wide shut for so long that, upon opening them, you need to deny that the present situation has been coming for a long time. Because to admit this would mean having to admit you had been drinking the cool aid for so long you couldn't see. So now it can be neatly planted in tRumps lap. At least I suppose it makes you feel good that it wasn't anything to do with you. Delusional is about the only word I could come up with.

^ pretty much spot on.

 

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3 hours ago, Mrleft8 said:
3 hours ago, Gissie said:

As soon as you use ridiculous spellings like tRump you declare you are not interested in a discussion of any sorts. You are simply declaring your blinkered position and waiting for those that agree with it to come along and give you a nice little pat on the back and join you sweet little circle jerk. What you seem to not understand is that it makes your supposed argument as silly as the crap you moan about from Trump.

As for your comments, they are pathetic and childish.

What the fuck are you on. The US ran the world through gunboat diplomacy for the last century when possible, ie most of the time. You could do the first three because of the threat from you military. Deal with us or we will fuck you up was how it went. Our culture is the best, follow it or we will fuck you up. Our democracy is the best, follow or we will fuck you up. You spent a long time being exceptional because after WW II you were the only country left with a decent manufacturing base left in the world and you had managed to ensure GB was bankrupt. You even managed to 'persuade' lots of German and Japanese scientists to come work for you. The world has been catching up ever since and finding you were not as exceptional as you liked to think for quite a while now.

Now you think it is all to do with Trump. That the fall from the self built pedestal has only occurred since 2017. That since this date the US has decided to just spend it all on a big military and ignored the scientific, economic and cultural. Eyes wide shut for so long that, upon opening them, you need to deny that the present situation has been coming for a long time. Because to admit this would mean having to admit you had been drinking the cool aid for so long you couldn't see. So now it can be neatly planted in tRumps lap. At least I suppose it makes you feel good that it wasn't anything to do with you. Delusional is about the only word I could come up with.

^ pretty much spot on.

 

Not entirely incorrect... but, the intentional withdrawal of the last two years and the intentional repudiation of international agreements, and the intentional installation of incompetents and ideologues into positions of policy is an entirely new step in redefining the US's role in the world.  

Wielding a big stick no matter how clumsily while engaged in the world is entirely different in kind and in perception from bragging about your big stick while intentionally rejecting engagement with the world at large.

"Trump", no matter how it is spelled is, in fact, unique.  And rarely has a turning point in a nation's role in the world - as well as it's respect - been as clearly defined.   This may be delusional to you, but I don't think so.  But that's just my opinion.  You have yours.

 

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4 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Not entirely incorrect... but, the intentional withdrawal of the last two years and the intentional repudiation of international agreements, and the intentional installation of incompetents and ideologues into positions of policy is an entirely new step in redefining the US's role in the world.  

Wielding a big stick no matter how clumsily while engaged in the world is entirely different in kind and in perception from bragging about your big stick while intentionally rejecting engagement with the world at large.

"Trump", no matter how it is spelled is, in fact, unique.  And rarely has a turning point in a nation's role in the world - as well as it's respect - been as clearly defined.   This may be delusional to you, but I don't think so.  But that's just my opinion.  You have yours.

 

Thanks for the polite answer, was unsure how it would be received, but was not meant to be a dump on the US. I would agree that Trump is unique, I guess where I differ is that I see some good things he has done. I am not interested in going down the rabbit hole of what, as for most in PA it is considered treason to even hint that he may have been okay sometimes.

As for redefining the role of the US in the world, it has needed to happen for a while. In fact it has been happening for a while. This is not a good or bad thing, just how the world is changing and developing. The only thing I will say is that perhaps Trump is a man for his time. (Please keep an open mind and keep reading.)The US needs to find a way to get on with the world without resorting to the big stick. Trump, so far, has shown little inclination to bring out the big stick. It may not always be this way, but so far the only bombs he likes to drop are on twitter. They can be embarrassing, for both himself and the country, but they don't kill people. Unless you count the heart attacks induced in those that dislike him.

From my point of view, having lived all over the world for many years, America has got used to being the only big boy on the street. Russian has kept playing and the US has allowed it to keep in the club, but only because it is hard to call a club of one a club any more. The whole world needs to change and accept things are developing in a new order. Trump gave NATO shit for lagging behind and being happy under the US umbrella. To me a good thing, they need to stand up and be responsible for their own shit a bit more.

Anyway, I see a changing of the power base in the world coming, in fact it is already in mid change. For it to be a peaceful change the US will need to learn to share its toys again or there will be blood in the sand pit. For this to happen we, as in the world, needs to not have a hawk in the White House. But we also don't want a push over, the occupant needs  to be able to push back at times. The man there at the moment seems to do both, it is just a pity he is also a complete fucking loser and dickhead.

I hope we can keep this thread at least reasonably civil until the use retards pile in.

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4 hours ago, Gissie said:

What the fuck are you on. The US ran the world through gunboat diplomacy for the last century when possible, ie most of the time. You could do the first three because of the threat from you military. Deal with us or we will fuck you up was how it went. Our culture is the best, follow it or we will fuck you up. Our democracy is the best, follow or we will fuck you up. You spent a long time being exceptional because after WW II you were the only country left with a decent manufacturing base left in the world and you had managed to ensure GB was bankrupt. You even managed to 'persuade' lots of German and Japanese scientists to come work for you. The world has been catching up ever since and finding you were not as exceptional as you liked to think for quite a while now.

Now you think it is all to do with Trump. That the fall from the self built pedestal has only occurred since 2017. That since this date the US has decided to just spend it all on a big military and ignored the scientific, economic and cultural. Eyes wide shut for so long that, upon opening them, you need to deny that the present situation has been coming for a long time. Because to admit this would mean having to admit you had been drinking the cool aid for so long you couldn't see. So now it can be neatly planted in tRumps lap. At least I suppose it makes you feel good that it wasn't anything to do with you. Delusional is about the only word I could come up with.

Yep. The bolded is absolutely correct. That and the petro dollar.

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10 hours ago, Gissie said:

Thanks for the polite answer, was unsure how it would be received, but was not meant to be a dump on the US. I would agree that Trump is unique, I guess where I differ is that I see some good things he has done. I am not interested in going down the rabbit hole of what, as for most in PA it is considered treason to even hint that he may have been okay sometimes.

As for redefining the role of the US in the world, it has needed to happen for a while. In fact it has been happening for a while. This is not a good or bad thing, just how the world is changing and developing. The only thing I will say is that perhaps Trump is a man for his time. (Please keep an open mind and keep reading.)The US needs to find a way to get on with the world without resorting to the big stick. Trump, so far, has shown little inclination to bring out the big stick. It may not always be this way, but so far the only bombs he likes to drop are on twitter. They can be embarrassing, for both himself and the country, but they don't kill people. Unless you count the heart attacks induced in those that dislike him.

From my point of view, having lived all over the world for many years, America has got used to being the only big boy on the street. Russian has kept playing and the US has allowed it to keep in the club, but only because it is hard to call a club of one a club any more. The whole world needs to change and accept things are developing in a new order. Trump gave NATO shit for lagging behind and being happy under the US umbrella. To me a good thing, they need to stand up and be responsible for their own shit a bit more.

Anyway, I see a changing of the power base in the world coming, in fact it is already in mid change. For it to be a peaceful change the US will need to learn to share its toys again or there will be blood in the sand pit. For this to happen we, as in the world, needs to not have a hawk in the White House. But we also don't want a push over, the occupant needs  to be able to push back at times. The man there at the moment seems to do both, it is just a pity he is also a complete fucking loser and dickhead.

I hope we can keep this thread at least reasonably civil until the use retards pile in.

I agree one of Trumps less bad traits (redeeming is false advertising) is his RELATIVE aversion to military action.    This is cancelled out by his gutting diplomacy in favor of military spending.    All negotiations are by the madman in chief, with the professional diplomats jumping ship.    President Obama’s love of drone strikes was IMO one of his three great disappointments.

Trump will never share his toys,   He abandons the broken ones in bankruptcy and buys new sandboxes on credit.

Increasing NATO spending would have been better if he didn’t add lies to his claims and call Germany America’s greatest foe while trying to negotiate outside of the E.U. as he was doing so.   Increasing US spending instead of cutting it to the NATO 2% but proving so erratic no nation can trust America’s word is not the preferred method of downplaying our role as the world’s policeman.   It forces international arms races as nobody knows what to expect.    Which of course justifies further military spending in this country.   It reminds me of  the British empire and Germany prior to the Great War.  

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15 hours ago, Gissie said:

. The US ran the world through gunboat diplomacy for the last century when possible, ie most of the time. You could do the first three because of the threat from you military. Deal with us or we will fuck you up was how it went. Our culture is the best, follow it or we will fuck you up. Our democracy is the best, follow or we will fuck you up. You spent a long time being exceptional because after WW II you were the only country left with a decent manufacturing base left in the world and you had managed to ensure GB was bankrupt. You even managed to 'persuade' lots of German and Japanese scientists to come work for you. The world has been catching up ever since and finding you were not as exceptional as you liked to think for quite a while now.

Now you think it is all to do with Trump. That the fall from the self built pedestal has only occurred since 2017. That since this date the US has decided to just spend it all on a big military and ignored the scientific, economic and cultural. Eyes wide shut for so long that, upon opening them, you need to deny that the present situation has been coming for a long time. Because to admit this would mean having to admit you had been drinking the cool aid for so long you couldn't see. So now it can be neatly planted in tRumps lap. At least I suppose it makes you feel good that it wasn't anything to do with you. Delusional is about the only word I could come up with.

Second remaining paragraph is brutally honest.  Please clarify the bold part.   Though far from perfect, we fought as a unified people, much as the former empire did.   We just did better, making more.    We trained navel aviators in the safety of Lake Michigan, on training carriers.   The British had the same opportunity on the other four lakes.   The Philippines may not have enjoyed being an American colony, but they detested being Japanese slaves and were strong allies.   Oz, Kiwi and Canada had nominal indipendence and fought hard though Australia was perhaps even slower then the US to see the need to build a military in the pre war years, trusting to the Royal Navy.   Even India provided a small percentage of its men in a volunteer army.   The difference was the limited ability of agrarian or uneducated (India and Pakistan) colonies to fight a modern war despite their vast resources.    Great Britain did not chose to build large numbers of war plants in these safe locations to the extent we did, since they weren’t England.    Even though a huge percent of British land was relatively safe from direct attack the industrial areas that were producing the most were not.    We were in the opposite situation, with Alaska, Guam, Philippines etc not contributing a big chunk to our economy and the Japanese balloon bombs of the west coast, rare shelling, coastal Uboat attacks and German infiltration attempts having no significant impact on the 48 states.   That set us up to prosper even as the Philippines went from colony to despot and the Panama Canal was given to the country it transacted.   England was still rebuilding when its much larger possessions revolted and either left or distanced themselves further.   Aside from being a good ally and helping the British Empire survive long enough to fall apart after the war, America did not play a meaningful role in its collapse.

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11 hours ago, Gissie said:

Thanks for the polite answer, was unsure how it would be received, but was not meant to be a dump on the US. I would agree that Trump is unique, I guess where I differ is that I see some good things he has done. I am not interested in going down the rabbit hole of what, as for most in PA it is considered treason to even hint that he may have been okay sometimes.

Trumps openly acknowledged things that nobody was willing to - on an international level China's abusive trade practices would be foremost among those. I don't think Trumps done a damn bit to fix any of them.

Trump is the ultimate end of empire America - mortgaging the future to buy the dreams of the past,  full of bullshit and bluster, eager to take credit for victorys that haven't occurred,  and he spends his days shitposting on social media filling his face with fast food and watching TV.

GB bankrupted itself; the US didn't pick WW1 or WW2.

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12 hours ago, Gissie said:

Thanks for the polite answer, was unsure how it would be received, but was not meant to be a dump on the US. I would agree that Trump is unique, I guess where I differ is that I see some good things he has done. I am not interested in going down the rabbit hole of what, as for most in PA it is considered treason to even hint that he may have been okay sometimes.

As for redefining the role of the US in the world, it has needed to happen for a while. In fact it has been happening for a while. This is not a good or bad thing, just how the world is changing and developing. The only thing I will say is that perhaps Trump is a man for his time. (Please keep an open mind and keep reading.)The US needs to find a way to get on with the world without resorting to the big stick. Trump, so far, has shown little inclination to bring out the big stick. It may not always be this way, but so far the only bombs he likes to drop are on twitter. They can be embarrassing, for both himself and the country, but they don't kill people. Unless you count the heart attacks induced in those that dislike him.

From my point of view, having lived all over the world for many years, America has got used to being the only big boy on the street. Russian has kept playing and the US has allowed it to keep in the club, but only because it is hard to call a club of one a club any more. The whole world needs to change and accept things are developing in a new order. Trump gave NATO shit for lagging behind and being happy under the US umbrella. To me a good thing, they need to stand up and be responsible for their own shit a bit more.

Anyway, I see a changing of the power base in the world coming, in fact it is already in mid change. For it to be a peaceful change the US will need to learn to share its toys again or there will be blood in the sand pit. For this to happen we, as in the world, needs to not have a hawk in the White House. But we also don't want a push over, the occupant needs  to be able to push back at times. The man there at the moment seems to do both, it is just a pity he is also a complete fucking loser and dickhead.

I hope we can keep this thread at least reasonably civil until the use retards pile in.

Well, when you started your reply with "What the fuck are you on" and ended it with calling me "delusional", you made it a little hard to remain polite.  I tried, but you might make an effort as well.

Please, everyone, remember that it was the current *resident in the White House who wondered aloud to "his generals" why we couldn't use nuclear weapons, who saber-rattled with North Korea including threatening wholesale destruction and suggested sending troops to Venezuela was on the table.  That he hasn't done those things is perhaps more situational luck than his distaste for engaging in warfare. 

Of course, hie personal distaste for blood (which is"disgusting" if its shed on one of his marble floors) is different from his unwillingness to have others suffer a bit.

 

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On 3/18/2019 at 1:22 PM, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

I remember all the stories about the American collapse and Japan's emergence as that top world economic power in the 80's.

 

The Japanese did NOT have more natural resources us, a larger work force than us, and a government that was absolutely totalitarian with the ability to set aside human rights.  They never owned manufacturing the way China does now, and the US was never in nearly this much debt to the Japanese.

You continue to be idiot.

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18 minutes ago, Grrr... said:

The Japanese did NOT have more natural resources us, a larger work force than us, and a government that was absolutely totalitarian with the ability to set aside human rights.  They never owned manufacturing the way China does now, and the US was never in nearly this much debt to the Japanese.

You continue to be idiot.

The Chinese do have an aging population, tremendous pollution problems, enormous debt issues on the local level, investments that were foolish and a whole lot of poverty.  The manufacturing is going to Vietnam, the Philippines and there is no end to the impoverished world wide who can be put into factories for consumers.  If you add the US to Europe to our Asian allies and others, the Chinese are not about to dominate the world.

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On 3/19/2019 at 9:05 AM, J28 said:

Hoping for America’s failure is a tenet of the far left, which has been made more intense by the Trump election.  Capitalism is a failed system in their view.

Sore loser syndrome. 

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4 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Trumps openly acknowledged things that nobody was willing to - on an international level China's abusive trade practices would be foremost among those. I don't think Trumps done a damn bit to fix any of them.

Trump is the ultimate end of empire America - mortgaging the future to buy the dreams of the past,  full of bullshit and bluster, eager to take credit for victorys that haven't occurred,  and he spends his days shitposting on social media filling his face with fast food and watching TV.

GB bankrupted itself; the US didn't pick WW1 or WW2.

Not sure about China, apart from the abusive trade practices. He has pointed it out and at least attempted to deal with it, which is more than any other leader around the world (especially ours) has done. I also think his bluster, threats, then talking is a fairly normal way is the way to deal with them. Time will tell on this one.

Whether he is the end of the American Empire, again time will tell. But perhaps its time in the sun was passing anyway as the dogs yapping at its heels have grown bigger and stronger and he drew the short straw. As for the bluster, bullshit and social media shit, agreed he is a wanker.

I think you will find that the US was more than happy to sell GB whatever they wanted at the beginning. It was an aim of FDR to make sure that GB was taken down to make room for an expanding US. It was a time of "cash and carry". Once the cash ran out it became territory. At one point bases in the Caribbean for 50 shitty destroyers, most of which were serviceable. Once GB was bankrupt the US stepped in and splashed the cash, but not before. Not pointing it out as a good or bad thing, just how shit happened.

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On 3/18/2019 at 3:42 PM, Bristol-Cruiser said:

I don't think anyone (with a brain) saw Japan as a thread in the same way China is a thread. You need only consider the relative size, resource base, and population of the two. Not too hard to imagine China with the world leading companies type of companies that Japan spawned. Add that to its geopolitical advantages and demography and it is impressive.

It will be interesting to see how China adapts to a population that is starting to demand a western standard of living. As Robots take over the manufacturing cost differential between us and them will continue to shrink. Already their tremendous growth rate is starting to fall back to Earth. 

I've seen smarter people that you write off America before.  

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2 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Well, when you started your reply with "What the fuck are you on" and ended it with calling me "delusional", you made it a little hard to remain polite.  I tried, but you might make an effort as well.

Please, everyone, remember that it was the current *resident in the White House who wondered aloud to "his generals" why we couldn't use nuclear weapons, who saber-rattled with North Korea including threatening wholesale destruction and suggested sending troops to Venezuela was on the table.  That he hasn't done those things is perhaps more situational luck than his distaste for engaging in warfare. 

Of course, hie personal distaste for blood (which is"disgusting" if its shed on one of his marble floors) is different from his unwillingness to have others suffer a bit.

 

Apologies on the language in my first post. These days most threads here turn into a shit fight of abuse rather quickly. I did expect this one to do the same, so I guess I wanted to get a couple of cheap shots in first.

Yes your leader has done all the things you have claimed. But how bad are they really. Telling Kim he had a bigger red button. Absolute gold. Kim is more bluster than Trump, having the Pres of your avowed enemy take the piss out of your threats is going to make you sit up and notice. With the shit hole Venezuela has turned into hindsight shows it may not have been a bad thing. The point is he hasn't done any of these things and I don't believe it is situational luck. He doesn't see war as a good thing. Not good for business may be his rational, or perhaps he does like to see body bags as much as most of your previous presidents have. I know, many will think it is good for business, but not the sort of business he likes to do. Weapons and infrastructure are not his thing. Probably even has a hard on for some of the wealthy assholes that have made millions from this very thing and the last thing he wants to do is enable them to make more millions from the deaths of some American lives.

As for personal distaste of blood, so what. Not many, apart from crazies, would find blood on their floors tasteful.

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1 hour ago, hasher said:

The Chinese do have an aging population Yes and this is a huge problem. They have already increased retirement age and automation will help. One problem they have not done anything with is the huge load put on the working age people, family by family, by the one child policy. In the past a large family was able to look after a small number of elders. Now there are fewer younger people to look after a growing number of oldsters.

tremendous pollution problems, Yes, but they have made considerable progress in this area. My wife is in Beijing to see her mother fairly often and she said the frequency and seriousness of bad air days is much better.

enormous debt issues on the local level, investments that were foolish and a whole lot of poverty.  Nowhere in human history do we see a time when so much poverty has been eliminated in such a short time. Poverty elimination continues at a decent pace. The fact that there is internal debt is a problem but nearly as much as if it were foreign debt. There are foolish investments anywhere there are investments.

The manufacturing is going to Vietnam, the Philippines and there is no end to the impoverished world wide who can be put into factories for consumers. Who do you think owns the factories in these countries. The Chinese, government and business have far stronger linkages all over the world than does the US or Western Europe.

If you add the US to Europe to our Asian allies and others, the Chinese are not about to dominate the world.

Guess this depends on how you define 'dominate'. To my mind, in the last century the US dominated the world. This did not mean that the Western European nations, Japan and a few others were not important either globally or regionally.

 

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6 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

It will be interesting to see how China adapts to a population that is starting to demand a western standard of living. As Robots take over the manufacturing cost differential between us and them will continue to shrink. Already their tremendous growth rate is starting to fall back to Earth. 

I've seen smarter people that you write off America before.  

Jack, have you been to China and had a look at how things are? I strongly suggest you go for a visit. The Chinese are not 'starting to demand a western standard of living'. Far more of them already have it than in the United States or the EU. Just do the math. How do you know how smart I might be. At least I can create coherent posts here.

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5 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Apologies on the language in my first post. These days most threads here turn into a shit fight of abuse rather quickly. I did expect this one to do the same, so I guess I wanted to get a couple of cheap shots in first.

Yes your leader has done all the things you have claimed. But how bad are they really. Telling Kim he had a bigger red button. Absolute gold. Kim is more bluster than Trump, having the Pres of your avowed enemy take the piss out of your threats is going to make you sit up and notice. With the shit hole Venezuela has turned into hindsight shows it may not have been a bad thing. The point is he hasn't done any of these things and I don't believe it is situational luck. He doesn't see war as a good thing. Not good for business may be his rational, or perhaps he does like to see body bags as much as most of your previous presidents have. I know, many will think it is good for business, but not the sort of business he likes to do. Weapons and infrastructure are not his thing. Probably even has a hard on for some of the wealthy assholes that have made millions from this very thing and the last thing he wants to do is enable them to make more millions from the deaths of some American lives.

As for personal distaste of blood, so what. Not many, apart from crazies, would find blood on their floors tasteful.

This little bit of monologue by Trump is what I was referring to:

“I was at Mar-a-Lago and we had this incredible ball, the Red Cross Ball, in Palm Beach, Florida. And we had the Marines. And the Marines were there, and it was terrible because all these rich people, they’re there to support the Marines, but they’re really there to get their picture in the Palm Beach Post… so you have all these really rich people, and a man, about 80 years old—very wealthy man, a lot of people didn’t like him—he fell off the stage.

“So what happens is, this guy falls off right on his face, hits his head, and I thought he died. And you know what I did? I said, ‘Oh my God, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away. 

"I couldn’t, you know, he was right in front of me and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him… he’s bleeding all over the place, I felt terrible. You know, beautiful marble floor, didn’t look like it. It changed color. Became very red. And you have this poor guy, 80 years old, laying on the floor unconscious, and all the rich people are turning away. ‘Oh my God! This is terrible! This is disgusting!’ and you know, they’re turning away. Nobody wants to help the guy. His wife is screaming—she’s sitting right next to him, and she’s screaming.

“What happens is, these 10 Marines from the back of the room… they come running forward, they grab him, they put the blood all over the place—it’s all over their uniforms—they’re taking it, they’re swiping [it], they ran him out, they created a stretcher. They call it a human stretcher, where they put their arms out with, like, five guys on each side.

“I was saying, ‘Get that blood cleaned up! It’s disgusting!’ The next day, I forgot to call [the man] to say he’s OK,” said Trump, adding of the blood, “It’s just not my thing.”

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4 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

It will be interesting to see how China adapts to a population that is starting to demand a western standard of living. As Robots take over the manufacturing cost differential between us and them will continue to shrink. Already their tremendous growth rate is starting to fall back to Earth. 

I've seen smarter people that you write off America before.  

The development of the all seeing eye and social rating is an attempt by XI to get in front of the problem. The growing middle class demanding a western standard of living isn't a problem until they get to lose it. Poor are poor with nothing to really lose. The middle class, a growing group in China, have things to lose. They also have the ability to try and become disruptive as they lose things. So totalitarian control is required. Xi has started this by announcing himself the new Emperor in all but name. As for their tremendous growth rate, most money people have treated the official figures as a joke for quite a while now.

As for writing America off, this would be a silly call. Things are definitely changing and her long lonely time at the top is coming to an end. Not a good/bad thing, just more change in our world.

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21 minutes ago, Gissie said:

I think you will find that the US was more than happy to sell GB whatever they wanted at the beginning. It was an aim of FDR to make sure that GB was taken down to make room for an expanding US. It was a time of "cash and carry". Once the cash ran out it became territory. At one point bases in the Caribbean for 50 shitty destroyers, most of which were serviceable. Once GB was bankrupt the US stepped in and splashed the cash, but not before. Not pointing it out as a good or bad thing, just how shit happened.

We were happy to sell weapons; the UK was happy to have colonials die for them in droves and then fuck over the colonials at the end. Just attempting to point out that WW1 & WW2 weren't conflicts of US choosing - they were (mostly) European conflicts in origin. Yanks always like to point out Pearl Harbor; Japan moved against the british empire in Asia at the same time.

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2 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

This little bit of monologue by Trump is what I was referring to:

“I was at Mar-a-Lago and we had this incredible ball, the Red Cross Ball, in Palm Beach, Florida. And we had the Marines. And the Marines were there, and it was terrible because all these rich people, they’re there to support the Marines, but they’re really there to get their picture in the Palm Beach Post… so you have all these really rich people, and a man, about 80 years old—very wealthy man, a lot of people didn’t like him—he fell off the stage.

“So what happens is, this guy falls off right on his face, hits his head, and I thought he died. And you know what I did? I said, ‘Oh my God, that’s disgusting,’ and I turned away. 

"I couldn’t, you know, he was right in front of me and I turned away. I didn’t want to touch him… he’s bleeding all over the place, I felt terrible. You know, beautiful marble floor, didn’t look like it. It changed color. Became very red. And you have this poor guy, 80 years old, laying on the floor unconscious, and all the rich people are turning away. ‘Oh my God! This is terrible! This is disgusting!’ and you know, they’re turning away. Nobody wants to help the guy. His wife is screaming—she’s sitting right next to him, and she’s screaming.

“What happens is, these 10 Marines from the back of the room… they come running forward, they grab him, they put the blood all over the place—it’s all over their uniforms—they’re taking it, they’re swiping [it], they ran him out, they created a stretcher. They call it a human stretcher, where they put their arms out with, like, five guys on each side.

“I was saying, ‘Get that blood cleaned up! It’s disgusting!’ The next day, I forgot to call [the man] to say he’s OK,” said Trump, adding of the blood, “It’s just not my thing.”

I can only say every one sees what they want to in events. I see a guy admitting he couldn't watch, that all his wealthy friends found it disgusting and looked away. His beautiful marble floor, it no longer looks beautiful as the blood spreads out. What did you want him to say, "I noticed the amazing patterns the contrasting red made as it spread over my beautiful marble". Yet Marines, the ones they were all there to support did their shit. They could deal with it, with the blood. To me he comes across as someone who is proud of what these Marines did. Something that him and his rich friends couldn't deal with.

Then he admits that he wanted the blood cleaned up because he finds it disgusting. Should he have asked for it to stay. Maybe have a protective coating on it so he could come and see it when he wanted.

Anyway, we all get to interpret things in the way that we want. No one is more correct than another (unless it's mine of course). The hard part is to try and see more than one interpretation.

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3 minutes ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

We were happy to sell weapons; the UK was happy to have colonials die for them in droves and then fuck over the colonials at the end. Just attempting to point out that WW1 & WW2 weren't conflicts of US choosing - they were (mostly) European conflicts in origin. Yanks always like to point out Pearl Harbor; Japan moved against the british empire in Asia at the same time.

Of course you were happy to sell weapons, you had a desperate buyer and made full use of it. As for fucking the colonies over, not sure what you mean. The empire was already wobbling and support form places like India had caveats attached that the Empire would give them more freedom when it was over.

I agree that neither war was of US choosing, however the US played their hand very well to come out and the end of the second one as the only fully functioning manufacturing country in the world. This lead to what has now been called the era of American exceptionalism. An era that is coming to a close as it is no longer alone at the top. It is how this transition is handled, by all parties that will dictate the next couple of decades. As I posited at the beginning, perhaps for all his warts, Trump is not the worst leader you could have at the moment. Far from the best, but far from the worst as well. If you had a serious hawk now, or elect one in the coming years, us small guys will need to hunker down because there will be some shit flying.

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41 minutes ago, Gissie said:

 As for fucking the colonies over, not sure what you mean.

I mean all of the monuments in NZ & Oz too war dead and the higher casualty rate for the ANZACs. 

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1 hour ago, Gissie said:

I can only say every one sees what they want to in events. I see a guy admitting he couldn't watch, that all his wealthy friends found it disgusting and looked away. His beautiful marble floor, it no longer looks beautiful as the blood spreads out. What did you want him to say, "I noticed the amazing patterns the contrasting red made as it spread over my beautiful marble". Yet Marines, the ones they were all there to support did their shit. They could deal with it, with the blood. To me he comes across as someone who is proud of what these Marines did. Something that him and his rich friends couldn't deal with.

Then he admits that he wanted the blood cleaned up because he finds it disgusting. Should he have asked for it to stay. Maybe have a protective coating on it so he could come and see it when he wanted.

Anyway, we all get to interpret things in the way that we want. No one is more correct than another (unless it's mine of course). The hard part is to try and see more than one interpretation.

Are those rose-colored glasses pricey?   

A man was wounded and our bone-spurred hero turned way and "didn't want to touch him". 

What did I want him to say?  I wanted him to say, "I called for help", "I checked his pulse", "I signaled the Marines", "I knelt beside him and held his hand", or even "I reached for my phone and called 911."  Any of those.

Take a look at the picture of Juan Romero, a busboy, kneeling over Robert Kennedy on the kitchen floor.  That's what real people do.

1585067330_ScreenShot2019-03-20at4_36_17PM.thumb.png.6c57c1b30b39ee2c6c4d2c3cba58e564.png

Our president is a psychopath.  IMO, of course.

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6 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Jack, have you been to China and had a look at how things are? I strongly suggest you go for a visit.

Why do you hate the Chinese so much?

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4 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Are those rose-colored glasses pricey?   

A man was wounded and our bone-spurred hero turned way and "didn't want to touch him". 

What did I want him to say?  I wanted him to say, "I called for help", "I checked his pulse", "I signaled the Marines", "I knelt beside him and held his hand", or even "I reached for my phone and called 911."  Any of those.

Take a look at the picture of Juan Romero, a busboy, kneeling over Robert Kennedy on the kitchen floor.  That's what real people do.

1585067330_ScreenShot2019-03-20at4_36_17PM.thumb.png.6c57c1b30b39ee2c6c4d2c3cba58e564.png

Our president is a psychopath.  IMO, of course.

It was too icky for him to do anything.

But he would run unarmed into a school shooting.

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6 hours ago, Left Shift said:

Are those rose-colored glasses pricey?   

A man was wounded and our bone-spurred hero turned way and "didn't want to touch him". 

What did I want him to say?  I wanted him to say, "I called for help", "I checked his pulse", "I signaled the Marines", "I knelt beside him and held his hand", or even "I reached for my phone and called 911."  Any of those.

Take a look at the picture of Juan Romero, a busboy, kneeling over Robert Kennedy on the kitchen floor.  That's what real people do.

1585067330_ScreenShot2019-03-20at4_36_17PM.thumb.png.6c57c1b30b39ee2c6c4d2c3cba58e564.png

Our president is a psychopath.  IMO, of course.

No, that is what some people do. I have been on site when we had a 1" steel cable snap. Fortunately only one got snicked by, but it was not pleasant. People react very differently to these things. From the guy who heads over and knows about things like femoral arteries to those that turn and throw up. We had it all, plus the many variations in between. To judge someone on their reaction to blood leaking onto a floor is going to severely limit those you find suitable to be a reasonable human being. But each to his own values I guess.

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how's this for a metric on critiquing a national 'leader'; that dirty son of a bitch trumpstain (along with his fellow parasites) would gut, oh say, trivial things, environmental regulations specifically, across the board and say it's in the name of 'progress' and jobz. deal breaker, it says so much, too much.

no mercy, fuck that dirty, asinine shit bag, his head would do well to be on a pike to set a clear example on what isn't decent and moral. that goes for the rest who sell life and the voiceless down the road for superficial gain.

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On 3/20/2019 at 11:44 AM, Gissie said:

As soon as you use ridiculous spellings like tRump you declare you are not interested in a discussion of any sorts. You are simply declaring your blinkered position and waiting for those that agree with it to come along and give you a nice little pat on the back and join you sweet little circle jerk. What you seem to not understand is that it makes your supposed argument as silly as the crap you moan about from Trump.

As for your comments, they are pathetic and childish.

What the fuck are you on. The US ran the world through gunboat diplomacy for the last century when possible, ie most of the time. You could do the first three because of the threat from you military. Deal with us or we will fuck you up was how it went. Our culture is the best, follow it or we will fuck you up. Our democracy is the best, follow or we will fuck you up. You spent a long time being exceptional because after WW II you were the only country left with a decent manufacturing base left in the world and you had managed to ensure GB was bankrupt. You even managed to 'persuade' lots of German and Japanese scientists to come work for you. The world has been catching up ever since and finding you were not as exceptional as you liked to think for quite a while now.

Now you think it is all to do with Trump. That the fall from the self built pedestal has only occurred since 2017. That since this date the US has decided to just spend it all on a big military and ignored the scientific, economic and cultural. Eyes wide shut for so long that, upon opening them, you need to deny that the present situation has been coming for a long time. Because to admit this would mean having to admit you had been drinking the cool aid for so long you couldn't see. So now it can be neatly planted in tRumps lap. At least I suppose it makes you feel good that it wasn't anything to do with you. Delusional is about the only word I could come up with.

I'm glad someone said it .

The USA has been on the downslide generally for at least 20 years...Hmmm I think Globalisation may have played a hand.

Perhaps Trump may be credited with going to war with this intangible foe :) 

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17 hours ago, Bristol-Cruiser said:

Jack, have you been to China and had a look at how things are? I strongly suggest you go for a visit. The Chinese are not 'starting to demand a western standard of living'. Far more of them already have it than in the United States or the EU. Just do the math. How do you know how smart I might be. At least I can create coherent posts here.

 

Yew clearly China has eclipsed the US.  Rah Rah Rah Go China. 

 

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8 hours ago, Gissie said:

No, that is what some people do. I have been on site when we had a 1" steel cable snap. Fortunately only one got snicked by, but it was not pleasant. People react very differently to these things. From the guy who heads over and knows about things like femoral arteries to those that turn and throw up. We had it all, plus the many variations in between. To judge someone on their reaction to blood leaking onto a floor is going to severely limit those you find suitable to be a reasonable human being. But each to his own values I guess.

When talking about times that need courage Trump says he'll run into a school building with an active shooter. When faced with actual injury Trump does fuck all. It's not hard to see Trump as a particularly hypocritical bullshitter. 

Which is why lots of times I get the sense you are defending some other, alternate, Trump. Or responding to what you think critics think of Trump, not actual Trump.

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39 minutes ago, Nailing Malarkey Too said:

Yew clearly China has eclipsed the US.  Rah Rah Rah Go China. 

 

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First off, for the kind of comparisons you are talking about you need to use PPP GDP rather than nominal. Secondly, China has a population of 1.3 billion. There are at least 500 million living a full scale Western lifestyle (whether this is a good thing in another matter), i.e. more than the total population of the US. I will repeat my question, have you visited China? It is a fascinating place to see.

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7 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

When talking about times that need courage Trump says he'll run into a school building with an active shooter. When faced with actual injury Trump does fuck all. It's not hard to see Trump as a particularly hypocritical bullshitter. 

Which is why lots of times I get the sense you are defending some other, alternate, Trump. Or responding to what you think critics think of Trump, not actual Trump.

But most politicians are hypocritical bullshitters. He certainly comes across as an obnoxious blowhard. At the same time many of those that hate on him do so in a blind way. No matter what he does or says there is always a negative twist put on it, no matter the stretch required to get there. It reminds me of the old joke.

One evening Trump was seen walking across New York harbour.

The following headlines in the Washington post screamed

Trump Can't Swim!

So not defending him that much, in the end he isn't my Pressie. But the mindless chatter on hear gets a bit boring as you all strive to out do each other on how bad Trump is. Or dumping insults on those that suggest anything different. So back to the usual program..

Trump is a cunt, racist, pussy grabber... Whatever floats your boat.

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12 minutes ago, Gissie said:

But most politicians are hypocritical bullshitters. He certainly comes across as an obnoxious blowhard. At the same time many of those that hate on him do so in a blind way. No matter what he does or says there is always a negative twist put on it, no matter the stretch required to get there.

Thats because Trump means what he says to be taken in a negative way by those who oppose him. It's not a stretch, he wants those who oppose him to hate him, and because of that those who hate those who oppose him to love him.

There's all kinds of "middle of the road" "rational" twits in the US who don't get this. He wants to divide. That's his goal. If you don't get that you aren't being "centrist" you are sucking Trumps dick.

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1 minute ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Thats because Trump means what he says to be taken in a negative way by those who oppose him. It's not a stretch, he wants those who oppose him to hate him, and because of that those who hate those who oppose him to love him.

If you are clever enough to recognise this why are you, and your elk, so bloody dumb you fall for it. Why fall for a trap you claim you can see. Why take it in a negative way and fuel the fires of hate and division.

Or is this really an attempt to justify why you can never see anything positive in his actions, ever. Not even a glimmer at any point. But Trump has recognised this weakness in his opponents and has become a master at exploiting it. Until those like yourself can get over what has happened and stop reacting the way you do, he will win again, and win bigly. So if you are as bright as you make out, turn down the rhetoric and engage the brain a little more. It is the only way to deal with dickheads like Trump.

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16 minutes ago, Gissie said:

If you are clever enough to recognise this why are you, and your elk, so bloody dumb you fall for it.

Are you married? If I kick your wife in the face will it piss you off? If you know I'm doing it to piss you off will it piss off you less, or more?

There's tons of things that Trump could have done to unify with little cost. He chose not too.

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1 minute ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

Are you married? If I kick your wife in the face will it piss you off? If you know I'm doing it to piss you off will it piss off less, or more?

There's tons of things that Trump could have done to unify with little cost. He chose not too.

What an angry little turd you are. There may be ton's of things Trump could have tried to do. However you, between wanting to kick my wife for some obscure reason, would still have found a way to make it negative and bleated about it.

You are the one that pointed out Trump wants his opponents to be negative about him because it rallies his supporters. So again if you are such a smart little fucker, why are you so dumb as to fall for it. Or are you wrong and just making an excuse for the hate you bring to the table.

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20 hours ago, Mismoyled Jiblet. said:

clearly it's my fault I'm mad at the guy kicking my wife in the face because it rallys his supporters. How much money should I give him to stop?

This makes no sense to me, when has Trump kicked your wife in the face? I guess it is an allegory for something, but could you elaborate a little.

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20 hours ago, Gissie said:

What an angry little turd you are. There may be ton's of things Trump could have tried to do. However you, between wanting to kick my wife for some obscure reason, would still have found a way to make it negative and bleated about it.

You are the one that pointed out Trump wants his opponents to be negative about him because it rallies his supporters. So again if you are such a smart little fucker, why are you so dumb as to fall for it. Or are you wrong and just making an excuse for the hate you bring to the table.

Keep it civil, Gissie.  I know you can do it.  

Little turd, little fucker, dumb, hate...Let's try to keep the discussion well above a tRumpian plane.  

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7 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Keep it civil, Gissie.  I know you can do it.  

Little turd, little fucker, dumb, hate...Let's try to keep the discussion well above a tRumpian plane.  

"Are you married? If I kick your wife in the face will it piss you off? If you know I'm doing it to piss you off will it piss off less, or more?"

I find this far from civil and have asked for some sort of explanation on the meaning behind it. But you are correct, I will try harder to contain myself. The problem I have with MJ is he comes across as either an intelligent poster that is worth listening to, or he comes across as an abusive blind tosser with a closed mind. The first one I enjoy, the second one can naff off.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

"Are you married? If I kick your wife in the face will it piss you off? If you know I'm doing it to piss you off will it piss off less, or more?"

I find this far from civil and have asked for some sort of explanation on the meaning behind it. But you are correct, I will try harder to contain myself. The problem I have with MJ is he comes across as either an intelligent poster that is worth listening to, or he comes across as an abusive blind tosser with a closed mind. The first one I enjoy, the second one can naff off.

The problem here is you apparently didn't understand an argument made by reductio ad absurdum.  Pointing out an absurd situation highlights the underlying flaws in the basic premise. 

Catch your breath and move on.

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6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

The problem here is you apparently didn't understand an argument made by reductio ad absurdum.  Pointing out an absurd situation highlights the underlying flaws in the basic premise. 

Catch your breath and move on.

Brings back school memories. Latin, probably should have given it a bit more effort but hindsight is not a very useful skill.

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2 minutes ago, Gissie said:

Brings back school memories. Latin, probably should have given it a bit more effort but hindsight is not a very useful skill.

Tempus fugit, but ilegitimi non carborundum.

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6 minutes ago, Left Shift said:

Tempus fugit, but ilegitimi non carborundum.

:lol: Taught my kids that at a very early age.

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It's certainly true that every trivial little negative about Trump gets offered as a plat du jour ..some are rather mean offerings. Like the toilet paper on shoe thing.:rolleyes:

It's not good..just wearies people. Of course trump contributes a lot of this crap. He want's people weary, to switch off.

Prime example, yesterdays Golan heights announcement..hoping people would react to that rather than the release of Muellers report..which I'm pretty sure he would have been notified of.

Pigs might fly :)

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5 minutes ago, Shortforbob said:

It's certainly true that every trivial little negative about Trump gets offered as a plat du jour ..some are rather mean offerings. Like the toilet paper on shoe thing.:rolleyes:

It's not good..just wearies people. Of course trump contributes a lot of this crap. He want's people weary, to switch off.

Prime example, yesterdays Golan heights announcement..hoping people would react to that rather than the release of Muellers report..which I'm pretty sure he would have been notified of.

Pigs might fly :)

That's what Air Force 1 is for. :rolleyes:

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