Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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LP/LPE planning to start builder-controlled class association and gave finger to the ILCA inspection?

or

????

 

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11 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

The IOC will not like this one. 

Might just be the opposite.  from what i am told there is no love lost between World Sailing and LP, and it's not like IOC honorary/past pres Rogge (a Finn olympian) isn't plugged into WS and the sport in general.  Not sure how plugged in, but Rastegar sure does have a lot of people who don't like him.

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33 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Might just be the opposite.  from what i am told there is no love lost between World Sailing and LP, and it's not like IOC honorary/past pres Rogge (a Finn olympian) isn't plugged into WS and the sport in general.  Not sure how plugged in, but Rastegar sure does have a lot of people who don't like him.

Not sure there is anyone who likes LPE.  What a mess.  Can I still call a new Laser a Laser since they own the rights to that name in US and Europe, LOL.  Actually I don't care what they make the class call it.  Always wished that ILCA would go the route of any builder any name / one build spec but that ain't gonna happen for many reasons. 

Guessing we now get our toys from new global overlord PSA.  Want to bet the prices for everything laser don't go up?

 

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not sure there is anyone who likes LPE.  What a mess.  Can I still call a new Laser a Laser since they own the rights to that name in US and Europe, LOL.  Actually I don't care what they make the class call it.  Always wished that ILCA would go the route of any builder any name / one build specbut that ain't gonna happen for many reasons. 

Guessing we now get our toys from new global overlord PSA.  Want to bet the prices for everything laser don't go up?

 

 the name thing is so odd and frankly i haven't kept up with the kirby litigation stuff so I don't even know what the issues really are.  I can't imagine LP will do anything but sue, and quickly, so it'll probably come out in the wash

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55 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not sure there is anyone who likes LPE.  What a mess.  Can I still call a new Laser a Laser since they own the rights to that name in US and Europe, LOL.  Actually I don't care what they make the class call it.  Always wished that ILCA would go the route of any builder any name / one build spec but that ain't gonna happen for many reasons. 

Guessing we now get our toys from new global overlord PSA.  Want to bet the prices for everything laser don't go up?

 

LP wasn't paying is bills to suppliers so prices may actually go down if suppliers start dealing with respectable builders and re-open the pipeline.

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11 minutes ago, torrid said:

Did the RS Aero just become much more price competitive?

If PSA is building and owning the world I bet it did. 

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the new builder is... RS Sailing

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1 minute ago, Daniel Holman said:

RS Sailing is not a builder in the strictest sense of the word. 

i think you are misinterpreting how serious my response was........

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but, i also didn't know that about RS. So i learned something today

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

Not a shame...this is a banner moment!  LP has been a disaster for the class.  

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1 hour ago, torrid said:

Did the RS Aero just become much more price competitive?

I think the opposite is about to happen, if they pick the right builder. LP has thrown up so many road blocks that getting a better partner will bring the Laser back up to speed.

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3 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

hell, I'd build em

I’ll take 2, please.

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44 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

hell, I'd build em

Love it!

For class or "generic" and at what retail LOL?

Would so love to see a generic laser hulls and spars (ala 99-er or practice sails) built and priced as generic to help grass roots OD sailing.

 

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What would be interesting is if instead of going the Torch/Laser clone route, the ILCA took complete ownership of the design manual and updated it.  Part of bring a new builder online could involve building a Laser hull with modern materials and techniques to make it cheaper and more durable.

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16 minutes ago, torrid said:

What would be interesting is if instead of going the Torch/Laser clone route, the ILCA took complete ownership of the design manual and updated it.  Part of bring a new builder online could involve building a Laser hull with modern materials and techniques to make it cheaper and more durable.

it'd be cool but they've been very clear about emphasizing consistency across boats to keep as many boats competitive as possible.

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1 hour ago, Dave Clark said:

hell, I'd build em

You guys should definitely do it. Grab the Sunfish too. That's it, keep it smaller.

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57 minutes ago, torrid said:

What would be interesting is if instead of going the Torch/Laser clone route, the ILCA took complete ownership of the design manual and updated it.  Part of bring a new builder online could involve building a Laser hull with modern materials and techniques to make it cheaper and more durable.

I think that's why ILCA took it over, to make sure there were no changes due to modern materials and techniques.

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Great questions @Gouvernail. Would only add...

* What is it about this boat/class that seems to have all major players involved pursuing a scorched earth strategy? 

I can't see how the path that any of them are on is aimed at helping the majority of people that sail lasers. 

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I lost track of the last round, but is the construction manual still under copyright and who owns it? 

I can see that ILCA can decide on who it permits to be a member (although even that is muddied as an Olympic class), but struggle to see how it can prevent LPE building Lasers. 

I know that LPE are not well regarded, but the principle that a company can design, build, market and supply a boat only for the owners club to somehow deny that company the right to do that seems weak. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

What is it about this boat/class that seems to have all major players involved pursuing a scorched earth strategy? 

My 2c: the market is established, strong, yet shrinking and without a clear growth path. This triggers a social response of doubling down on whatever strategy you're pursuing.

Jared Diamond's "Collapse" book is applicable here. "What was the Easter islander thinking as he chopped down the last tree?" 

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45 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

"What was the Easter islander thinking as he chopped down the last tree?" 

This would make a nice boat.

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When I first read the ILCA announcement, I got rather excited, in a (sort of) 'serves them right' way. But now that I have calmed down, I see many issues. Some of them have been pointed out already, such as the naming rights. Let me add that ILCA is facing substantial legal fees based on the likelihood of LP going to court.  I want to sail, and I really don't want my ILCA dues to be spent on legal fees. 

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1 hour ago, martin.langhoff said:

My 2c: the market is established, strong, yet shrinking and without a clear growth path. This triggers a social response of doubling down on whatever strategy you're pursuing.

Jared Diamond's "Collapse" book is applicable here. "What was the Easter islander thinking as he chopped down the last tree?" 

Sounds like something I read recently about newspapers.  Newspapers are of course dying, but there are still people who want a physical paper to hold in their hand while they drink their morning coffee.  Existing newspaper owners are conducting a scorched earth policy, setting very high subscription rates which they know those last few holdouts will pay.  They know the business is dying, but they want to extract every last cent from it before it goes belly up.

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13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

You need to come on down to Austin on Easter Weekend and tell the huge throng of Laser sailors what you think!!

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

45F4CE4C-4B54-45E2-8D05-78EF7E830BE2.jpeg

I wish I had gotten down there to your regatta one of the past years, but at this stage in life my racing days are behind me and I am headed off cruising with the wife again on a big tri we just refit.  So the Laser thing is mostly just of academic interest for me. Heck I am even selling the UFO which is the most fun I have ever had in a vertical position!! 

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I guarantee sailing Kasers is a hell of a lot more fun than bitching about LP

hell yea

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Or the Torch or the 99er or... 

Did I miss the LPE response?  No press release, no nothing?  Just crickets??

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

Or the Torch or the 99er or... 

Did I miss the LPE response?  No press release, no nothing?  Just crickets??

LP did respond...

“ILCA statements are falsehoods and defamatory. We will fully protect and enforce our intellectual rights property, including Laser intellectual property. ILCA offices, now located in Austin, Texas, USA, should be moved back to the UK or EU, where over 75% of active Laser class members and sailors reside, managed by a full-time professional team paid for by the builders through increased plaque fees. LaserPerformance is proud and determined to continue to support Laser sailors and community around the world.”

https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/03/28/battle-begins-for-laser-class-authority/

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Just underlines the fact that there is beef between the two parties, and that whilst a new European builder would probably be good if it happened quickly and cleanly, I would expect that rasty won’t want to just roll over and let his cash cow go so laser customers will have more years of legal battles and all that means to look forward to. 

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Its all very strange. It seems to me the only statement referring to LPE in that ILCA press release is

"the builder’s refusal to allow inspection of the boats being built in their manufacturing facility as required by that contract."

Easily proved if that is a falsehood and defamatory I should have thought. 

But to be honest I expect its just a standard phrase that lawyers always roll out, and one isn't really supposed to look for meaning in it.

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13 minutes ago, JimC said:

 

But to be honest I expect its just a standard phrase that lawyers always roll out, and one isn't really supposed to look for meaning in it.

that's not really a thing

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9 hours ago, lemonpepper said:

That LP response seems like a complete non-sequitur if you ask me. They don't even bother to deny the breach that occurred only go straight to a weak defamation position.

That and rub the sailors noses in poop with

Quote

managed by a full-time professional team paid for by the builders through increased plaque fees

ie We charge you the sailor extra $$$ on your boat so that we can pay ourselves $$$ to continue to operate independently of and in opposition to the Class Association that is run by & for you the sailor.

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The only reason for them not to allow a inspection  would be a change in material or construction. I'm having a hard time imagining them lowering the quality.

Perhaps they figured out that it was more cost effective to glue the mast step and hull/deck joints with a gun adhesive like Plexus or West System Six10. Its got to be better than mixing up batches of bondo. Perhaps the quality of exterior plywood has gotten so bad that they had to start using marine ply for deck blocking. 

The other option could be they've been using a chopper gun and a Laser resembles a cheap tub instead of a boat.

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2 hours ago, CaptainAhab said:

The only reason for them not to allow a inspection  would be a change in material or construction. 

Well now, that’s not true. Maybe ILCA wanted LPE to pay their inspection expenses (from Texas) and LPE declined. Maybe the proposed date was inconvenient.  Maybe the ILCA rep didn’t have the necessary PPE to get to the factory floor.  Maybe the shop was full of commercially sensitive ARC rigs and ILCA were wanting to spy.  Who knows?

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1 hour ago, Dex Sawash said:

Maybe they wanted to force ILCA to react?

None of what sosoomi said would be in any way remarkable if ILCA and lpe had a decent functional relationship.

As it is, looks like the relationship has not been good, and ILCA were waiting for an opportunity to throw the book at lpe.

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You folks are cracking me up. I think there is information spread over 4 threads about this latest move by ILCA (somebody pick one; any one).  Alas all anyone can do is speculate because there is precious little information (and pretty vague claims) in the public domain.

The only thing for sure is LPE own the name (for now).  Speculation but LPE's past statements make me think they are potentially pursuing a tortuous interference claim re ILCA.  Would further speculate that ILCA feels they are standing on firm ground.

Kinda wishing the Laser gets dropped from the Olympics.  That would eventually force the class and builders (whomever both ends up being) to focus more at the grass roots level which is where Laser was born.

But for now it sounds like more lawyers are going to make more money from sailors... sigh... 

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1 hour ago, lemonpepper said:

Or maybe LP acts like a complacent monopoly and made an enormous blunder by miscalculating

i try not to paint anyone as incompetent or complacent as a default argument about their actions. this stuff is always more complicated than it appears on the surface. While people see LP as making counterintuitive or inexplicable choices, they may have a very good reason for doing such in terms of their own business priorities. I'm not defending LPs actions - they have made things very difficult for laser sailors, issues which seem to have resolved (somewhat) lately.

I hope the laser stays in the olympics. it's the only sailing class that really deserves to be there, to begin with, and the reason it deserves to be there has nothing to do with LP. it has everything to do with the number of sailors who sail it, the relatively low cost of entry and the breadth of the class around the world.

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15 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

While people see LP as making counterintuitive or inexplicable choices, they may have a very good reason for doing such in terms of their own business priorities.

What was the Easter Islander saying, or thinking, while he chopped down the last tree?

Clearly, had a very good reason, in terms of his worldview and priorities...

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@martin.langhoff He was probably thinking, if I make this tree into a boat, I can leave this island that I’ve stripped of all it’s resources

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2 hours ago, dgmckim said:

I hope the laser stays in the olympics. it's the only sailing class that really deserves to be there, to begin with, and the reason it deserves to be there has nothing to do with LP. it has everything to do with the number of sailors who sail it, the relatively low cost of entry and the breadth of the class around the world.

You seem to be involved with the Laser at a club and grass roots level so your comment is interesting to me.  The Laser was always my favorite boat to race.  So accessible, pure and simple.  But the builders, and class is focused more on the high level sailors and not the club/grass roots.  I don't mean that as a criticism.  The class should represent its dues paying members and the numbers clearly tell a story that grass roots and club level sailors are not there (joining ILCA).  Now I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg... ie if club sailors don't join because the class focus is at sailors above them or if the focus is there because club level sailors never joined in large numbers (I suspect this). All that said if you take away the Olympics the class would be forced to focus more at the club and grass roots level and that might be good.  Or not; YMMV!!

If nothing else there is one lesson here for all classes (or manufacturers).  Own everything.  All rights.  The name, the specs (or builders manual), etc...  This diluted ownership (of rights) structure sure ain't working so well for Laser anymore.

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20 minutes ago, Wess said:

You seem to be involved with the Laser at a club and grass roots level so your comment is interesting to me.  The Laser was always my favorite boat to race.  So accessible, pure and simple.  But the builders, and class is focused more on the high level sailors and not the club/grass roots.  I don't mean that as a criticism.  The class should represent its dues paying members and the numbers clearly tell a story that grass roots and club level sailors are not there (joining ILCA).  Now I don't know which came first, the chicken or the egg... ie if club sailors don't join because the class focus is at sailors above them or if the focus is there because club level sailors never joined in large numbers (I suspect this). All that said if you take away the Olympics the class would be forced to focus more at the club and grass roots level and that might be good.  Or not; YMMV!!

If nothing else there is one lesson here for all classes (or manufacturers).  Own everything.  All rights.  The name, the specs (or builders manual), etc...  This diluted ownership (of rights) structure sure ain't working so well for Laser anymore.

My point was that from an Olympics standpoint, it would make sense to have the most accessible boat be the Olympic boat. This falls within the general understanding of Olympic Spirit, which might be defined as "The important thing is not to win, but to take part". In that sense, the more opportunity you have for people to get to the Olympics, the better.

 

 

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52 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

My point was that from an Olympics standpoint, it would make sense to have the most accessible boat be the Olympic boat. This falls within the general understanding of Olympic Spirit, which might be defined as "The important thing is not to win, but to take part". In that sense, the more opportunity you have for people to get to the Olympics, the better.

 

 

And you actually believe that the members of the IOC believe this? Their actual credo is more akin to, "Money Talks, Bullshit Walks".

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15 minutes ago, Rum Runner said:

And you actually believe that the members of the IOC believe this? Their actual credo is more akin to, "Money Talks, Bullshit Walks".

Nowhere in there did I assert what I think the IOC believes. I said what I thought regarding the Olympic equipment selection. What the IOC values will be evident when they make their choice. I thought it was pretty clear that it was my opinion on the matter, not what I think the IOC believes.

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On 4/1/2019 at 12:51 PM, CaptainAhab said:

The only reason for them not to allow a inspection  would be a change in material or construction.

You're assuming a rational explanation. Nothing I've read or heard about LPE makes me think you should expect that. :-(

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World Sailing were to have inspected the manufacturing facility as part of the selection process. LPE must have hid all the secret stuff, although the WS inspection probably didn’t dive too deep. 

WS: “What is behind that locked door?”

LPE: “Um, er, just storage. Nothing in there of interest. Certainly nothing that impacts how we make Lasers. Honest! Are those RS fuckers telling you we are up to something?!?!”

WS: “Uh, no... just looking for the toilet...”

 

 

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LASERPERFORMANCE RESPONSE TO ILCA

STATEMENT OF 27 MARCH 2019 2 April 2019

LASERPERFORMANCE (“LP”) finds the recent events deplorable as well as potentially catastrophic for the Laser sailors and the class organization as configured today. It is important to know the background to the current dispute.

The falsehoods and misrepresentations contained in the official ILCA announcement are disturbing since they reflect on the class organization and bear on the credibility of governance of the class.

LP makes the following statements and responds to ILCA’s misleading statements:

▪️ LP has granted ILCA certain rights to use the Laser Trademark for its activities pursuant to an intellectual property license dated February 1998 (the “1998 Agreement”).

▪️ LP has been seeking a renewal of the 1998 Agreement which expires after multiple extensions on 31 August 2019.

▪️ ILCA has steadfastly refused to enter into a renewal agreement of like substance and has refused to have any meetings with LP on the matter.

▪️ LP refused to have ILCA undertake an inspection of LP’s facilities five months before expiry of 1998 Agreement and after three years of ILCA refusing to renew its license under the 1998 Agreement.

▪️ LP does not and has not refused inspection of its manufacturing facility or its products by other legitimate regulatory bodies. Indeed, LP has formally requested World Sailing to inspect LP’s facility given that they are the ultimate authority for compliance and the issuance of the boats’ plaques.

▪️ ILCA has not shared any of this with the sailors nor have they proposed how it would operate without a valid license from LP after August 2019.

▪️ ILCA is not legally able to seek new manufacturers for Laser products in LP territory without LP’s consent. LP territory covers the world excluding Australia, New Zealand (PSA) and Japan, Korea (PSJ). This is a simple matter of ownership of intellectual property and LP will enforce against any party who attempts to violate LP’s intellectual property rights.

▪️ ILCA can indeed appoint new builders in Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) and Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) limited territory; however, neither of them can supply boats into LP territory without LP’s consent.

▪️ PSA has tried in the past to import illegally into LP territory by a variety of schemes. LP has successfully enforced its property rights against PSA and will continue to enforce its rights against PSA and any collaborating dealers or persons. The last of such legal action was in Belgium and it was adjudicated in favor of LP with the dealer involved filing for bankruptcy to avoid payment of award pursuant to the court judgment.

▪️ PSA is unable to supply LP’s output even if they could legally sell into LP territories. Indeed, the last time PSA agreed to support a class event – also a World event – was the Youth Worlds 2016 in New Zealand with 105 boats which ended up in PSA withdrawing its support three months before the event.

▪️ PSA’s withdrawal meant cancellation of the event except for WS reaching out to LP to step in both to save the event and to prevent the adverse effects a major cancellation impacting the Olympics standing of Laser.

▪️ The 2024 Olympic is in Paris, France – an LP territory and LP can be the only authorized supplier of Laser boats at such event.

▪️ ILCA decertifying the most established and the original manufacturer of Laser sailboats will not end the supply of LP Lasers to our markets. However, it will signal to the Olympic authorities that the most popular Olympic sailing event has poor governance and leadership, leading to unpredictable supply.

▪️ LP, in partnership with its outstanding dealership network, has consistently shown that it is the only supplier that can consistently provide support to events and sailors at a global level.

LP proposes the following to prevent the implosion of the Laser class organization:

A. ILCA sign the renewal agreement to the 1998 Agreement in order to continue to use the granted trademark rights. 
B. ILCA move back to Europe where 75% of Laser sailors live and sail. 
C. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

LASERPERFORMANCE 
2 April 2019

contact@laserperformance.com

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38 minutes ago, lemonpepper said:

Strip away all the other bravado and chest beating and you end up with an admission that LP refused to let ILCA inspect the factory. Apparently that is breach of their license agreement with ILCA.

It's also a fairly common reason to repudiate a manufacturing contracts. 

If I don't make sure my client has the right to inspect its manufacturer in an agreement, it's probably malpractice.  Once the agreement is executed, If a party doesn't enforce its rights,  it may be deemed to have waived them.

Unless somehow the rules for manufacturing dinghies are different than the truck axles I am literally looking at in a manufacturing requirements contract I'm reviewing, or unless LPE's right to inspect isn't as clear as they seem to think. 

Call me crazy but it also seems like Rastey admitted in their release that they didn't allow ILCA in to inspect? 

 

 

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Remember this from the Sunfish Thread?: 

https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/ISCA_President_Letter_Nov-07-17.pdf 

Quote

The World Council was prepared to sign a trademark agreement until LP required that the ISCA initials and the name International Sunfish Class Association name were to be signed over to LP as well. This was a deal breaker for the World Council.


One wonders if LPE were trying to pull a similar stunt on the ILCA. I don't speak lawyerese, but the phrase "agreement of like substance" doesn't seem to me to quite mean "identical to the previous agreement".

Incidentally this is the latest from ISCA

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/sunfish-class-and-laser-performance

Quote

The Sunfish Class is disappointed to hear the news from ILCA and wants to share with all Sunfish Class members that our Class is working with LP to strengthen our relationship with the builder whereby LP will more actively support ISCA and USSCA operations and the Class will work with and support LP to achieve their objectives of geographic expansion and greater participation within the Sunfish Class by youth and women sailors.


 

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45 minutes ago, JimC said:

Remember this from the Sunfish Thread?: 

https://www.sunfishclass.org/documents/ISCA_President_Letter_Nov-07-17.pdf 


One wonders if LPE were trying to pull a similar stunt on the ILCA. I don't speak lawyerese, but the phrase "agreement of like substance" doesn't seem to me to quite mean "identical to the previous agreement".

Incidentally this is the latest from ISCA

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/sunfish-class-and-laser-performance


 

It's hard to feel that LP has any credibility since they have all but destroyed the Laser class in the US.  What retailers are left, and they've diminished greatly because LP wants to go direct to the consumer, can't get parts from the supplier because LP doesn't pay their bills.  When I talked to somebody in the know here in the US it sounded like LP was down to one employee.  There was some surprise as to who that person was and the position that they had found themself.  I don't know how the Sunfish class thinks that they can work with this format.  I applaud the decision to leave LP.  I work on a lot of Lasers to promote our fleet and I have had to go to "practice parts" too many times because you can't get the "legal" parts. Quite literally, there would be no "practice part" industry if it wasn't for the missteps of LP.

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5 hours ago, VWAP said:

LASERPERFORMANCE RESPONSE TO ILCA

STATEMENT OF 27 MARCH 2019 2 April 2019

LASERPERFORMANCE (“LP”) finds the recent events deplorable as well as potentially catastrophic for the Laser sailors and the class organization as configured today. It is important to know the background to the current dispute.

The falsehoods and misrepresentations contained in the official ILCA announcement are disturbing since they reflect on the class organization and bear on the credibility of governance of the class.

LP makes the following statements and responds to ILCA’s misleading statements:

▪️ LP has granted ILCA certain rights to use the Laser Trademark for its activities pursuant to an intellectual property license dated February 1998 (the “1998 Agreement”).

▪️ LP has been seeking a renewal of the 1998 Agreement which expires after multiple extensions on 31 August 2019.

▪️ ILCA has steadfastly refused to enter into a renewal agreement of like substance and has refused to have any meetings with LP on the matter.

▪️ LP refused to have ILCA undertake an inspection of LP’s facilities five months before expiry of 1998 Agreement and after three years of ILCA refusing to renew its license under the 1998 Agreement.

▪️ LP does not and has not refused inspection of its manufacturing facility or its products by other legitimate regulatory bodies. Indeed, LP has formally requested World Sailing to inspect LP’s facility given that they are the ultimate authority for compliance and the issuance of the boats’ plaques.

▪️ ILCA has not shared any of this with the sailors nor have they proposed how it would operate without a valid license from LP after August 2019.

▪️ ILCA is not legally able to seek new manufacturers for Laser products in LP territory without LP’s consent. LP territory covers the world excluding Australia, New Zealand (PSA) and Japan, Korea (PSJ). This is a simple matter of ownership of intellectual property and LP will enforce against any party who attempts to violate LP’s intellectual property rights.

▪️ ILCA can indeed appoint new builders in Performance Sailcraft Australia (PSA) and Performance Sailcraft Japan (PSJ) limited territory; however, neither of them can supply boats into LP territory without LP’s consent.

▪️ PSA has tried in the past to import illegally into LP territory by a variety of schemes. LP has successfully enforced its property rights against PSA and will continue to enforce its rights against PSA and any collaborating dealers or persons. The last of such legal action was in Belgium and it was adjudicated in favor of LP with the dealer involved filing for bankruptcy to avoid payment of award pursuant to the court judgment.

▪️ PSA is unable to supply LP’s output even if they could legally sell into LP territories. Indeed, the last time PSA agreed to support a class event – also a World event – was the Youth Worlds 2016 in New Zealand with 105 boats which ended up in PSA withdrawing its support three months before the event.

▪️ PSA’s withdrawal meant cancellation of the event except for WS reaching out to LP to step in both to save the event and to prevent the adverse effects a major cancellation impacting the Olympics standing of Laser.

▪️ The 2024 Olympic is in Paris, France – an LP territory and LP can be the only authorized supplier of Laser boats at such event.

▪️ ILCA decertifying the most established and the original manufacturer of Laser sailboats will not end the supply of LP Lasers to our markets. However, it will signal to the Olympic authorities that the most popular Olympic sailing event has poor governance and leadership, leading to unpredictable supply.

▪️ LP, in partnership with its outstanding dealership network, has consistently shown that it is the only supplier that can consistently provide support to events and sailors at a global level.

LP proposes the following to prevent the implosion of the Laser class organization:

A. ILCA sign the renewal agreement to the 1998 Agreement in order to continue to use the granted trademark rights. 
B. ILCA move back to Europe where 75% of Laser sailors live and sail. 
C. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

LASERPERFORMANCE 
2 April 2019

contact@laserperformance.com

Thanks for posting that VWAP.  That is one hell of a statement. This is gonna be messy.

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Quote

LASERPERFORMANCE RESPONSE TO ILCA

STATEMENT OF 27 MARCH 2019 2 April 2019

We are cunts

LASERPERFORMANCE 
2 April 2019

contact@laserperformance.com

FIFY

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6 hours ago, VWAP said:

LASERPERFORMANCE RESPONSE TO ILCA

 

LP proposes the following to prevent the implosion of the Laser class organization:

A. ILCA sign the renewal agreement to the 1998 Agreement in order to continue to use the granted trademark rights. 
B. ILCA move back to Europe where 75% of Laser sailors live and sail. 
C. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

LASERPERFORMANCE 
2 April 2019

contact@laserperformance.com

Only A makes sense, but the renewal agreement probably has terms in it that are unacceptable to ILCA.

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I suspect A, B, and C were already demands LP made to the class before this blew up... LP has a habit of demanding more and more to maintain the status quo (some times less than the status quo....)  

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The only group winning in all of this are the lawyers.  :(

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2 hours ago, Thistle1678 said:

I suspect A, B, and C were already demands LP made to the class before this blew up... LP has a habit of demanding more and more to maintain the status quo (some times less than the status quo....)  

You are correct. The below was part of the statement that LP published in January...

"Class relationships and World Sailing will be a focus of our external partnerships. As key stakeholders, we would be engaging with them in the hope of bringing them requisite resources for their successful expansion and continuity. These include the International Laser Class Association (ILCA) where we would move for a motion to bring back ILCA to the UK; move for a motion to fund a full time and dedicated executive team for the ILCA; support the Laser Class Action Group led by stakeholders in Europe; and ensure the ILCA license is renewed and the Olympic contract is executed accordingly."

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Oh yeah that was part of the WTF statement where they blamed the court battle with Kirby et. al. on the class after the class instituted a change in the fundamental rule, ostensibly at LP's request... 

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57 minutes ago, Thistle1678 said:

Oh yeah that was part of the WTF statement where they blamed the court battle with Kirby et. al. on the class after the class instituted a change in the fundamental rule, ostensibly at LP's request... 

I don't think ILCA has ever done anything at LPE or Kirby's request.  And I don't mean they didn't request.  Looking back, ILCA has done what is in the best interest of their dues paying members... which much as I wish was more aligned with grass roots sailors interests and it ain't... is what they should be doing.

But this whole no inspection (LPE) and boot em (ILCA) thing is a bit baffling.  I am generally left thinking the no inspection thing is not the real issue, its just the means to an end.  But what end and instigated by whom?  LPE had to know they were triggering this with refusing inspection and its kinda like they have said "uncle; I want out of this business" but there are far better, far less expensive means to pressure somebody else (PSA) to buy you out at a higher price. And if its ILCA wanting LPE gone - and that can easily be understood - again it just seems like there are better ways to do it without incurring more legal fees and putting so much that matters to them and their members (boat supply in general and mfg supplied boat for any events in LPE territory, and even the Olympic status) at potential risk.

Never before have I seen a situation where so many seem to be willing to shoot themselves in the foot while handing over their wallets to lawyers??  Does Laser sailing and building make one go mad??

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don't think ILCA has ever done anything at LPE or Kirby's request.  And I don't mean they didn't request.  Looking back, ILCA has done what is in the best interest of their dues paying members... which much as I wish was more aligned with grass roots sailors interests and it ain't... is what they should be doing.

But this whole no inspection (LPE) and boot em (ILCA) thing is a bit baffling.  I am generally left thinking the no inspection thing is not the real issue, its just the means to an end.  But what end and instigated by whom?  LPE had to know they were triggering this with refusing inspection and its kinda like they have said "uncle; I want out of this business" but there are far better, far less expensive means to pressure somebody else (PSA) to buy you out at a higher price. And if its ILCA wanting LPE gone - and that can easily be understood - again it just seems like there are better ways to do it without incurring more legal fees and putting so much that matters to them and their members (boat supply in general and mfg supplied boat for any events in LPE territory, and even the Olympic status) at potential risk.

Never before have I seen a situation where so many seem to be willing to shoot themselves in the foot while handing over their wallets to lawyers??  Does Laser sailing and building make one go mad??

I don't think it's anything specific to Lasers, but it does sound a lot like a shrinking market and the scramble to maximize cash returns in that declining market.  What happens in declining markets? Consolidation, cost reductions, etc.

LPE likely sees a SMOD Laser class as a way for them to cut costs by getting away from the build process manual and would have more control of the cash flow as well.

 

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54 minutes ago, Wess said:

I don't think ILCA has ever done anything at LPE or Kirby's request.  And I don't mean they didn't request.  Looking back, ILCA has done what is in the best interest of their dues paying members... which much as I wish was more aligned with grass roots sailors interests and it ain't... is what they should be doing.

But this whole no inspection (LPE) and boot em (ILCA) thing is a bit baffling.  I am generally left thinking the no inspection thing is not the real issue, its just the means to an end.  But what end and instigated by whom?  LPE had to know they were triggering this with refusing inspection and its kinda like they have said "uncle; I want out of this business" but there are far better, far less expensive means to pressure somebody else (PSA) to buy you out at a higher price. And if its ILCA wanting LPE gone - and that can easily be understood - again it just seems like there are better ways to do it without incurring more legal fees and putting so much that matters to them and their members (boat supply in general and mfg supplied boat for any events in LPE territory, and even the Olympic status) at potential risk.

Never before have I seen a situation where so many seem to be willing to shoot themselves in the foot while handing over their wallets to lawyers??  Does Laser sailing and building make one go mad??

I don't know about that I remember the campaigning "We must do this or we'll lose our builder!!!" LPE threatened to pull trademarks, support, charter boats and everything else to ram the change through...   LPE moved production to China already so your going to get chopper gun Chinesium boats if you don't hold them to the construction manual, there's not much too it high tech mind you just basic layup.  As stated before LPE wants to own the class, lock stock, and expensive carbon barrels.... 

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BTW, anyone know the resolution to the Sunfish class, I know the class association largely backed down and maintained their relationship, but I never heard details.  Possibly the same road ILCA is on...

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Well I just looked up International Sunfish on the US patent and trademark office website, and it appears that ISCA is still registered to the |International Sunfish Class association, so that suggests that LPE were the ones who backed down.

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13 minutes ago, JimC said:

Well I just looked up International Sunfish on the US patent and trademark office website, and it appears that ISCA is still registered to the |International Sunfish Class association, so that suggests that LPE were the ones who backed down.

The Sunfish Class approved third party everything (in frustration) and send several unkind things about LPE it all disappeared last year at some point... 

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"The Sunfish Class is disappointed to hear the news from ILCA and wants to share with all Sunfish Class members that our Class is working with LP to strengthen our relationship with the builder whereby LP will more actively support ISCA and USSCA operations and the Class will work with and support LP to achieve their objectives of geographic expansion and greater participation within the Sunfish Class by youth and women sailors.

Rich Chapman, President ISCA"

Sounds like it's all peaches and cream now... Or Rich is being held hostage... :-P 

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ISCA has their nuts in a vice.  There is only one builder and limited international reach.  I know it is sailed in multiple countries, but it is definitely USA-centric.

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11 minutes ago, torrid said:

ISCA has their nuts in a vice. 

Maybe so, but according to ISCA at the time the main sticking point was ISCA refusing to hand over the trademark for ISCA to LPE. If the trademark is still registered to ISCA then it does appear that it was LPE who blinked.

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22 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

It's also a fairly common reason to repudiate a manufacturing contracts. 

If I don't make sure my client has the right to inspect its manufacturer in an agreement, it's probably malpractice.  Once the agreement is executed, If a party doesn't enforce its rights,  it may be deemed to have waived them.

Unless somehow the rules for manufacturing dinghies are different than the truck axles I am literally looking at, in a manufacturing requirements contract I'm reviewing, or unless LPE's right to inspect isn't as clear as they seem to think. Are you literally looking at the truck axles, or are you looking at a contract about truck axles?  Your client will be hoping for unambiguous language.:D

Call me crazy but it also seems like Rastey admitted in their release that they didn't allow ILCA in to inspect? Hi Clean, see the Torch thread. Yes IMHO, this was a particularly poorly worded paragraph in an overall weakly constructed release.  As a great lawyer once said " If there is the smell of cordite and courtroom in the air , the client says nothing to the press without being reviewed by counsel first"

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, torrid said:

ISCA has their nuts in a vice.  There is only one builder and limited international reach.  I know it is sailed in multiple countries, but it is definitely USA-centric.

 

1 hour ago, JimC said:

Maybe so, but according to ISCA at the time the main sticking point was ISCA refusing to hand over the trademark for ISCA to LPE. If the trademark is still registered to ISCA then it does appear that it was LPE who blinked.

 

Yea, its odd.  I think most would agree that ISCA had a stronger trademark case than ILCA does.  And initially ISCA was very aggressive in their stance.  So to see them now making nice with LPE is very odd. But maybe as Torrid said they had nowhere else to go for boats (but geeze if folks - multiple - still make Snipes, and very few a year, then I gota think they could have found somebody to make boats.

But now its ILCA that is being aggressive.  Very odd.  I wonder if they have some agreement with PSA, Kirby, or others to cover their legal bills.

It would also be interesting if one of our lawyerly friends could update the blowtorch thread with where that PSA, Kirby and LPE litigation stands and best guesses at outcomes because that seems to feed into this latest mess.  They gotta be connected.

 

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32 minutes ago, Wess said:

And initially ISCA was very aggressive in their stance.  So to see them now making nice with LPE is very odd.

Not if LPE abandoned the attempt to grab the ISCA IP which was the claimed sticking point. If they did, and ISCA ended up with an agreement they were perfectly happy with why wouldn't they play nice now?

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

 

 

Yea, its odd.  I think most would agree that ISCA had a stronger trademark case than ILCA does. 

 

Count me as one who does not agree with that......at least not yet.

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On 4/2/2019 at 3:40 PM, VWAP said:

LASERPERFORMANCE RESPONSE TO ILCA

STATEMENT OF 27 MARCH 2019 2 April 2019

LP proposes the following to prevent the implosion of the Laser class organization:

A. ILCA sign the renewal agreement to the 1998 Agreement in order to continue to use the granted trademark rights. 
B. ILCA move back to Europe where 75% of Laser sailors live and sail. 
C. ILCA appoint a professional executive team to run the class operations paid for by increased plaque fees charged to the builders.

LASERPERFORMANCE 
2 April 2019

contact@laserperformance.com

Cummon'  surely we can enjoy the irony of Laser Performance, head quartered  at  25 Van Zant Street, Norwalk, CT 06855, whose owner resides in CT suggesting that ILCA move to Europe.  :unsure::huh::lol:

 

Where exactly would they suggest? They appear to be suggesting ILCA move to the UK at precisely the same time as LP is reviewing its own presence in the UK. In one of Rasty's Rants he wrote "

The most significant of these changes are BREXIT - the UK decision to leave the EU - ... Brexit has already taken its toll with repeated delays in shipping schedules in and out of the UK as well as the threat and uncertainties of a hard BREXIT yet to disrupt our business further.... As a result of Brexit, we will review our UK based service operations ..."

But go ahead ILCA, Rasty advises moving to a country which is on the verge of introducing draconian immigration hurdles and closing its borders to the free movement of Europeans. That would be a terrific choice for a global headquarters .  Bhutan would be another place to consider 

 

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That’s all well and good but you have previously called for the Laser to be cheaper and for it to be better built/longer lasting. As a customer or the class association  those are admirable wishes, but from the builders perspective that’s not good business.

There will always be tensions between the various stakeholders, unfortunately some key players seem to lack the people skills to reach a compromise.

Perhaps they are taking a leaf from the book of Brexit. 

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Why?

 

Why do I have to type this??? 

 

 

Because handwriting doesnt get the respect it used to.

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1 hour ago, GBR2083 said:

That is a huge WOW!  I have always thought and said that ILCA is acting on behalf its members.  Well pass me some crow because here are the bulk of the members saying that maybe ain't so.  Not just w regards to booting LPE but with re the rigs as well.  This appears to be a pretty big deal and hints at a split within the class.  So who is ILCA repesenting???

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

That is a huge WOW!  I have always thought and said that ILCA is acting on behalf its members.  Well pass me some crow because here are the bulk of the members saying that maybe ain't so.  Not just w regards to booting LPE but with re the rigs as well.  This appears to be a pretty big deal and hints at a split within the class.  So who is ILCA repesenting???

I am not surprised that there are differences of opinion in a global organization like ILCA.

What does surprise me is that the Europeans felt the need to go public on their differences with the top leadership