Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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I sincerely hope that Andy Roy will continue to give us info that can be relied upon.  My recommendation to Andy is to wear a life vest and a helmet while on Sailing Anarchy because some of the nonsense expressed here may be hurtful. 

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Just now, bill4 said:

Ok, Andy. For 1000 points, what did you do at the Canadian Nationals at Royal Vic in 1983 (I think) that nobody else did?

Ah Bill, you had to remind me, eh?

Ok, where do I start.  It was '82.  Had a little lead in the regatta after Day 1. Ultimate frisbee game breaks out on the club lawn (see red arrow in photo below). Disaster (Mark Brink), Lemuck (Larry Lemieux) and I go up for a long, high toss. Brink lands on me, we all heard a loud crack, and my foot is turned 180 deg. from where it should've been. Ambulance called.  Bunch of guys visit me next day in hospital (screws inserted in ankle).  There was no wind on that second day, so one of them wisecracks to me: "Hey Andy, I've got good news for you, you're still leading the regatta!".

RVYC.png

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We have a winner! Right - 1982. I ended up beating you in that regatta.

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5 minutes ago, bill4 said:

We have a winner! Right - 1982. I ended up beating you in that regatta.

You must've been a young lad.  Bill, you have the best "interests" of anyone on here on their SA profile.

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About as young as you! And, in step with my interests, I am enjoying a dark rum and coke right now.

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And, if I may digress for one more post, it is worth noting I beat Al Clark at the 2011 Nationals. He broke some ribs in pre-regatta training....

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That’s good enough for me @VWAP.

Though I wonder about one of Bill’s interests... golf... really!?!?

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10 hours ago, VWAP said:

"World Sailing has now proposed three dates for joint World Sailing -ILCA Laser inspection of our Banbury factory (May 28,29 or 30). LaserPerformance has agreed and is waiting for confirmed date. Will ILCA stand by its word to make sure Laser sailing and events are not hurt by issuing plaques after factory inspection certification?"

Ok, back to addressing some of LP's statements.  These proposed dates are not for a "Laser inspection" (where ILCA's Chief Technical Officer would perform detailed measurements, etc.), and WS did not intend to use the word inspection. It is a visit to the plant to verify the production date of boats (re: plaquing or not). ILCA has not been invited as far as I know, but we really don't need to be there as WS can perform the verification.  

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1 minute ago, bill4 said:

And, if I may digress for one more post, it is worth noting I beat Al Clark at the 2011 Nationals. He broke some ribs in pre-regatta training....

Laughing again!

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4 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

Laughing again!

So to conclude my digression, I believe I am the only poster to have beaten both you and Al Clark. 

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Just now, Gouvernail said:

Yeah yeah yeah... we all beat somebody at one time or another. I best Brink and Lemieux st the Gulfport world’s. 

But not one of you has won the Easter Laser Regatta snd today is Four time Easter champion Eric Faust's  Birthday... I am thinking it is number 54 but with another year like this one and he will turn Seventy next May.  

Good call, recognizing Eric's birthday. He took the day and I believe this weekend off, and certainly well deserved. He's been working his butt off for us Laser sailors.

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32 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

HYeah yeah yeah... we all beat somebody at one time or another. I beat both Brink and Lemieux at the Gulfport world’s. Andy was sixth

a fellow named Simon Cole won that regatta on the water by 40 points but the folks in  charge threw him out of the Race. (Andy won that first race)  The equipment truck was opened so late half the fleet missed the start. I was the third guy to get his stuff and I got there just before the last minute. ( pure luck) As the club was upwind of the start and some sort of poison rule was in effect, everybody who failed to get below the line in time was scored PMS that race. ( I got 56)

Cole had 30.25 points in the other seven races. The committee’s winner had 63.75 points in those same seven and  77.75 overall. (Andy Had 104.75)( I got 351 which I think, remembering the entry and  boat charter fee, was just under a dollar a point 

in a fine act of sportsmanship Oscar Paulich accepted the trophy and immediately walked over to Simon and announced to the crowd , “We all know who really won this regatta.”

That brought the house down 

 

 

But not one of you has won the Easter Laser Regatta snd today is Four time Easter champion Eric Faust's  Birthday... I am thinking it is number 54 but with another year like this one and he will turn Seventy next May.  

Wow, some info there I've forgotten about, Fred. The equipment truck opened late so half the fleet missed the start!?  Yes, Simon was really fast. I remember a race (decent hiking breeze - one of the only one of those) where he was leading (and went on to win) and I was in second. We crossed tacks several times on the final beat and would wave at each other each time and he declined to tack on me each time. He was a good sport.

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56 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

HYeah yeah yeah... we all beat somebody at one time or another. I beat both Brink and Lemieux at the Gulfport world’s. Andy was sixth

a fellow named Simon Cole won that regatta on the water by 40 points but the folks in  charge threw him out of the Race. (Andy won that first race)  The equipment truck was opened so late half the fleet missed the start. I was the third guy to get his stuff and I got there just before the last minute. ( pure luck) As the club was upwind of the start and some sort of poison rule was in effect, everybody who failed to get below the line in time was scored PMS that race. ( I got 56)

Cole had 30.25 points in the other seven races. The committee’s winner had 63.75 points in those same seven and  77.75 overall. (Andy Had 104.75)( I got 351 which I think, remembering the entry and  boat charter fee, was just under a dollar a point 

in a fine act of sportsmanship Oscar Paulich accepted the trophy and immediately walked over to Simon and announced to the crowd , “We all know who really won this regatta.”

That brought the house down 

 

 

But not one of you has won the Easter Laser Regatta snd today is Four time Easter champion Eric Faust's  Birthday... I am thinking it is number 54 but with another year like this one and he will turn Seventy next May.  

 

CCF05102019_00000.jpg

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59 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

HYeah yeah yeah... we all beat somebody at one time or another. I beat both Brink and Lemieux at the Gulfport world’s. Andy was sixth

a fellow named Simon Cole won that regatta on the water by 40 points but the folks in  charge threw him out of the Race. (Andy won that first race)  The equipment truck was opened so late half the fleet missed the start. I was the third guy to get his stuff and I got there just before the last minute. ( pure luck) As the club was upwind of the start and some sort of poison rule was in effect, everybody who failed to get below the line in time was scored PMS that race. ( I got 56)

Cole had 30.25 points in the other seven races. The committee’s winner had 63.75 points in those same seven and  77.75 overall. (Andy Had 104.75)( I got 351 which I think, remembering the entry and  boat charter fee, was just under a dollar a point 

in a fine act of sportsmanship Oscar Paulich accepted the trophy and immediately walked over to Simon and announced to the crowd , “We all know who really won this regatta.”

That brought the house down 

 

 

But not one of you has won the Easter Laser Regatta snd today is Four time Easter champion Eric Faust's  Birthday... I am thinking it is number 54 but with another year like this one and he will turn Seventy next May.  

So wait - why did he get thrown out?

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2 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

Ok, back to addressing some of LP's statements.  These proposed dates are not for a "Laser inspection" (where ILCA's Chief Technical Officer would perform detailed measurements, etc.), and WS did not intend to use the word inspection. It is a visit to the plant to verify the production date of boats (re: plaquing or not). ILCA has not been invited as far as I know, but we really don't need to be there as WS can perform the verification.  

The inspection by WS was part of the tender process. LPE are making it sound like this is some sort of a concession on their part. There won’t be much in he way of checking for custom mast rakes, looking to see if there was any fuckery with deck and hull weights or God knows what else. LPExit.

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5 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

Ok, back to addressing some of LP's statements.  These proposed dates are not for a "Laser inspection" (where ILCA's Chief Technical Officer would perform detailed measurements, etc.), and WS did not intend to use the word inspection. It is a visit to the plant to verify the production date of boats (re: plaquing or not). ILCA has not been invited as far as I know, but we really don't need to be there as WS can perform the verification.  

Presumably this is to issue plaques for all the boats heading out to various Euro and World championship venues etc that LP had backlogged in the factory prior to the termination of their Builders Agreement?  Would be "totes awks" as my teens would say if they had stuffed that up ...

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44 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The pre built inventory for those events must be worth millions of Pounds or Euros or dollars or whatever they use these days. It would certainly stress LP financially  to say, "Make us a builder again or these sit." 

But they might just have that sort of money squirreled away in anticipation of the fight. 

World Sailing would need to be financially able to turn down the short term fees as well as the International Laser Class Association, and there would be some mighty frustrated sailors and event organizers.

LP doesn't seem to be acting like.."OH well. That was a nice business while it lasted Let's just give up. " 

  Note that any new manufacturers seem to be expected by many to be able to cover this: It's a big ask to deliver that much expensive inventory up front. In one of LPs statements they claim that they had to step in to help out the Class when LPA withdrew from supplying to a major event in NZ. I don't know the detail behind that but you can see why LP would want to sing about it, if they can do so...

    There must be some pretty complex inventory and logistics management needed to meet requirements for substantial charter boat fleets while maintaining a viable business model.

<sarcasm> I guess if you are a highly profitable company with a large team that can be dedicated to it then it's just part of your business, it's just as well there so much money to be made building and chartering out boats. If there's any truth behind the story about the PSA fleet supply they must have missed an opportunity to make a killing, mustn't they? </sarcasm>

 Cheers,

                W.

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love to hear the story on why LPA bailed out of the kiwi event?

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@aroy210677- the stroll down memory lane was nice and likely many here (because they give a sh*t about Laser) have similar stories and love the boat because of the fleets that can be found anywhere.  But that all seems to be at some risk so maybe we can get back to the issue?  Trying to not ask questions here that you can't answer due to potential litigation but maybe these are safe enough...

1.) What is your view as a  ILCA WC member of the LPE claim of PSA boats built contrary to the construction manual seemingly deliberately and clearly with an intent to improve performance of the boat over the long term (ie stiffer).  Specifically, is the LPE claim true and if so why did ILCA allow and sanction these out of spec boats?

2.) Do you expect that a new builder will be announced prior to a class vote on the name changes and do you expect that new builder will offer boats at the same price and make event boat available to the same extent as LPE?  When do you expect a new builder announcement and the class vote to take place?

3.) Given the various statements out of the Europeans do you think the class will fracture?

4.) Is the new builder (for Europe, NAS, etc...) required to have a contract with and pay fees to PSA/GS and if yes, why?

Thanks for answering what you can.

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

@aroy210677- the stroll down memory lane was nice and likely many here (because they give a sh*t about Laser) have similar stories and love the boat because of the fleets that can be found anywhere.  But that all seems to be at some risk so maybe we can get back to the issue?  Trying to not ask questions here that you can't answer due to potential litigation but maybe these are safe enough...

1.) What is your view as a  ILCA WC member of the LPE claim of PSA boats built contrary to the construction manual seemingly deliberately and clearly with an intent to improve performance of the boat over the long term (ie stiffer).  Specifically, is the LPE claim true and if so why did ILCA allow and sanction these out of spec boats?

2.) Do you expect that a new builder will be announced prior to a class vote on the name changes and do you expect that new builder will offer boats at the same price and make event boat available to the same extent as LPE?  When do you expect a new builder announcement and the class vote to take place?

3.) Given the various statements out of the Europeans do you think the class will fracture?

4.) Is the new builder (for Europe, NAS, etc...) required to have a contract with and pay fees to PSA/GS and if yes, why?

Thanks for answering what you can.

1. I have to be careful on this one due to confidentiality agreements (which, interestingly enough, LPE broke when they released the statement on this topic, which included excerpts from the LCMA.).  I will say this. Their statement is misleading and omits several very important points from the matter

2. Applications are being accepted with interest from an impressive and long list or potential builders spanning 4 continents. I'm not sure how long the approval process will take once responses to the RFP are received, but the plan is to move as quickly as possible.  Plan is for multiple to be selected and on multiple continents.

3. The recent European letters (Italy and Spain) are certainly disappointing and include claims/statements that are not true or are misleading. I think once/if we get the Olympic selection we will get everyone working together.

4. No.

One more point of interest. The intention from what I understand is to re-establish BK royalty payment (PSA and PSJ cool with that, and of course new builders would need to as well).

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3 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

1. I have to be careful on this one due to confidentiality agreements (which, interestingly enough, LPE broke when they released the statement on this topic, which included excerpts from the LCMA.).  I will say this. Their statement is misleading and omits several very important points from the matter

2. Applications are being accepted with interest from an impressive and long list or potential builders spanning 4 continents. I'm not sure how long the approval process will take once responses to the RFP are received, but the plan is to move as quickly as possible.  Plan is for multiple to be selected and on multiple continents.

3. The recent European letters (Italy and Spain) are certainly disappointing and include claims/statements that are not true or are misleading. I think once/if we get the Olympic selection we will get everyone working together.

4. No.

One more point of interest. The intention from what I understand is to re-establish BK royalty payment (PSA and PSJ cool with that, and of course new builders would need to as well).

Thank you.

Re #2 - Are you able to say if you think the builder will be named prior to the class vote?

Interesting re #4 and a bit bummed to read your last comment but that is a personal POV not relevant to this.  Just prefer the class to be clear of any encumbrances.  But regardless I tip my cap to those of you in class management that are handling this.  Assuming the new builder offers same priced boats, same level of event boats, and same (or ideally) better service, you folks have really taken a bad situation and made it much better.  Can't imagine how you put up with all the crap that comes with such a high level and time consuming volunteer job.  Know its small consolation but THANK YOU!

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Just now, Wess said:

Thank you.

Re #2 - Are you able to say if you think the builder will be named prior to the class vote?

Interesting re #4 and a bit bummed to read your last comment but that is a personal POV not relevant to this.  Just prefer the class to be clear of any encumbrances.  But regardless I tip my cap to those of you in class management that are handling this.  Assuming the new builder offers same priced boats, same level of event boats, and same (or ideally) better service, you folks have really taken a bad situation and made it much better.  Can't imagine how you put up with all the crap that comes with such a high level and time consuming volunteer job.  Know its small consolation but THANK YOU!

In your question  #2, note that it will definitely be builderS.  Sorry, I don't know the answer to the timing vs. the vote. The vote could start as early as the end of this month, so it might happen first.  Not sure why it matters to know the builders for the vote.  The royalty isn't really a "class encumbrance", but rather a builder obligation.

Thanks on the tip of the cap, but the heavy lifting is being done by Eric and Tracy. Also a tip to Nick Page in New Zealand. He's a star addition to the WC, and wrote an impressive FRAND policy for the class.

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21 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

 Not sure why it matters to know the builders for the vote. 

 

Pure speculation on my part but to avoid a fracture it seems maybe relevant.  Europe has been served better than anyone by LPE and so their reluctance to leave that is at least understandable perhaps.  I don't know and doubt that most class members care as much about Olympics as they care about boat and part prices and support, and charter/event boat supply.  And there is a reasonable case to be made that so many over such a long period have not been able to make a go as serving these markets, that things might get worse not better.  So knowing of and hearing from a new builder and what they will and will not do in terms of price, support, and event boats might sway votes and keep the class intact... or at least that was my thinking.

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7 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

In your question  #2, note that it will definitely be builderS.  Sorry, I don't know the answer to the timing vs. the vote. The vote could start as early as the end of this month, so it might happen first.  Not sure why it matters to know the builders for the vote...

 

I don't think the names are important, but the numbers are. If voters are advised that the change to ILCA goes hand in hand with the appointment of, say, 2 new builders in Europe, a builder in North America a builder in South America, and a builder in SE Asia, that is very compelling. Who wouldn't vote for that?

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20 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I don't think the names are important, but the numbers are. If voters are advised that the change to ILCA goes hand in hand with the appointment of, say, 2 new builders in Europe, a builder in North America a builder in South America, and a builder in SE Asia, that is very compelling. Who wouldn't vote for that?

Exactly. I'm betting there will be two in NA.

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1 minute ago, aroy210677 said:

Exactly. I'm betting there will be two in NA.

Gouv! How does that sound to you?

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@aroy210677 - A non traveling club level sailor will love multiple builders in the same territory.  But for the higher levels sailors that make up most of ILCA's membership, supply of event boats seems like it might be a big deal, no?  So how exactly does that work when there are multiple builders in the same territory.  Assuming they take a loss on these - or better said make less of a profit and need to front the cash - is it not possible that none of the builders would want to supply event boats?  Sorry if I am missing something obvious.

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41 minutes ago, Wess said:

@aroy210677 - A non traveling club level sailor will love multiple builders in the same territory.  But for the higher levels sailors that make up most of ILCA's membership, supply of event boats seems like it might be a big deal, no?  So how exactly does that work when there are multiple builders in the same territory.  Assuming they take a loss on these - or better said make less of a profit and need to front the cash - is it not possible that none of the builders would want to supply event boats?  Sorry if I am missing something obvious.

Not sure, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Melges,  Catalina, Hunter, and maybe even MFG come to mind. I don’t know who else has the capacity, experience, and interest in building old fashioned fiberglass sailing toys while running the risk of the potential lawsuits and the political nonsense surrounding the sailboat racing game. 

My position hasn't changed in years. We need to remove the IP requirements from our Constitution and Rules, then see if the threat of losing the racing business causes LP to enthusiastically serve it in a reliable manner rather than allow frustration to cause the players to seek a better source of toys. 

Currenly those of us who play the game won’t let anyone other than LP provide toys, they don’t need to do anything as we wish because our rules clearly say we can’t go elsewhere. 

Maybe LP would not do anything differently to cling to its market.

Maybe, when faced with the real threat of loss of market they wouid choose to serve it. 

Currently the only available option is toys from LP. 

@Wess The International Laser Class Association cannot certify any new builders before this alleged theoretical vote on a Currently non-existent proposal is accomplished. Our class rules  have an IP requirement which can only be met by LP 

 

 

 

Love your passion for grass roots sailing Gouv but here we will have to agree to disagree. There is a way forward. Or at least I think there is. But I am just an old multihull cruiser wank! 

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1 hour ago, aroy210677 said:

Not sure, but we'll burn that bridge when we get to it.

Maybe just me but seems like a kinda important duck to have lined up for your membership. That said I am but an n of one! And I suspect that even if the vote fails a court would force a name change anyway so maybe it really don’t matter. 

Andy have you folks discussed what you would and would not do if the vote fails? And can you share?

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

Maybe just me but seems like a kinda important duck to have lined up for your membership. That said I am but an n of one! And I suspect that even if the vote fails a court would force a name change anyway so maybe it really don’t matter. 

Andy have you folks discussed what you would and would not do if the vote fails? And can you share?

As said before, the vote is going to happen soon. Late May my guess 

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Shame the vote didn’t happen before the name change was announced - the printed sailing magazines are now reporting the name has already changed.

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So if the class is able to find the right builders for North America who can provide a boat and the right quality and price point, is there any reason to expect demand for new boats to take off?

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I'd expect them to make way more money from parts and sails personally.  Someone's making a huge margin on the sails somewhere in that supply chain

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

@aroy210677 - A non traveling club level sailor will love multiple builders in the same territory.  But for the higher levels sailors that make up most of ILCA's membership, supply of event boats seems like it might be a big deal, no?  So how exactly does that work when there are multiple builders in the same territory.  Assuming they take a loss on these - or better said make less of a profit and need to front the cash - is it not possible that none of the builders would want to supply event boats?  Sorry if I am missing something obvious.

 

I believe they make more on these boats, after taking into account the finance costs and the charter fees, than they would if they received an order for a similar number of boats to a sailing school or holiday company. There is no way they make a loss. Do you really think LP would have done it for a loss? No way!!!

1 hour ago, JMP said:

Someone's making a huge margin on the sails somewhere in that supply chain

I keep hearing this but see no evidence of it and those involved deny it. People make the mistake of looking at what a "training sail" is being sold for by a small sailmaker and thinking that applies to a big sailmaker and an distribution set up that involves buying significant numbers at one time and holding stock.

It's very easy for a small sailmaker to do a Laser sail cheaply. All tghey need is a sewing machine, because they can order the panels cut out by a plotting company and don't even need to order a whole roll of sailcloth, so they can make to order and not have money tied up in stock. The problem comes when you place an order for, say, 500 sails to be delivered in 6-8 weeks. You can't cut sails out one at a time. They need to be bulk cut and that doesn't come cheap. You need a bank of machinists. The capital investment in the plant adds significant cost. You need to buy the cloth and component parts in bulk, in advance. The savings for bulk don't pay for the plant and up front investment in materials. Then there is an issue of quality. People complain about inconsistencies in Laser sails and that is from plants that are ISO9001 certified (which costs a lot to get). Start bulk manufacturing without that sort of standard and process in place and you get a nightmare in quality, as has been seen in the past with other classes. None of this comes cheap and none of this is included in the price of "training sails" and we haven't even started talking about stocking and distribution costs.

I suspect that it might be possible to reduce the cost of sails a bit but I would be very surprised if there really were big savings to be had.

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there are some posts here where a US laser dealer made a laminate squarehead sail so guys over 90kg could sail the laser competitively.

They did lots of testing, presented to the ILCA for a vote but got nowhere, it retailed for USD100 less

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In New Zealand....

A new Waszp 8.2m sail 3d moulded with battens and pulleys $1499

Laser 7.1m Dacron sail $1299

Someone is creaming it

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should I start buying stock in intensity sails? asking for a friend

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1 minute ago, dgmckim said:

should I start buying stock in intensity sails? asking for a friend

Possibly not a bad idea :p

They could double their prices and still be an attractive offering 

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11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Melges,  Catalina, Hunter, and maybe even MFG come to mind. I don’t know who else has the capacity, experience, and interest in building old fashioned fiberglass sailing toys while running the risk of the potential lawsuits and the political nonsense surrounding the sailboat racing game. 

My position hasn't changed in years. We need to remove the IP requirements from our Constitution and Rules, then see if the threat of losing the racing business causes LP to enthusiastically serve it in a reliable manner rather than allow frustration to cause the players to seek a better source of toys. 

Currenly those of us who play the game won’t let anyone other than LP provide toys, they don’t need to do anything as we wish because our rules clearly say we can’t go elsewhere. 

Maybe LP would not do anything differently to cling to its market.

Maybe, when faced with the real threat of loss of market they wouid choose to serve it. 

Currently the only available option is toys from LP. 

@Wess The International Laser Class Association cannot certify any new builders before this alleged theoretical vote on a Currently non-existent proposal is accomplished. Our class rules  have an IP requirement which can only be met by LP 

 

 

 

I just thought you would consider two builders in NA better than none...

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On 5/11/2019 at 7:51 PM, A Class Sailor said:
 

I believe they make more on these boats, after taking into account the finance costs and the charter fees, than they would if they received an order for a similar number of boats to a sailing school or holiday company. There is no way they make a loss. Do you really think LP would have done it for a loss? No way!!!

I believe Steve Clark's earlier comments on this point is more informed than me or anyone else here.  :)

Anyway we shall see.  An Olympic slot selection is not finalized for a while if I recall and I was really surprised Andy was saying they didn't even  know yet or would deal later with the issue of event boats supply.

I just really wonder - given the history dating long prior to LPE -  if any one builder can make a go of it never mind multiple builders in a territory.  Really surprised they would rush a vote with so much uncertainty around the things that would seem to matter the most to actual class members but ILCA seem to be executing a well thought out plan up to now so I must be missing something.

I am also morbidly curious what LPE will do.  Seems like so far its just been issuing misleading statements if you believe the ILCA comments in this thread (which I do).  Its like the war is over without anyone actually firing a shot!

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On 5/12/2019 at 12:51 AM, A Class Sailor said:
 

I believe they make more on these boats, after taking into account the finance costs and the charter fees, than they would if they received an order for a similar number of boats to a sailing school or holiday company. There is no way they make a loss. Do you really think LP would have done it for a loss? No way!!!

I keep hearing this but see no evidence of it and those involved deny it. People make the mistake of looking at what a "training sail" is being sold for by a small sailmaker and thinking that applies to a big sailmaker and an distribution set up that involves buying significant numbers at one time and holding stock.

It's very easy for a small sailmaker to do a Laser sail cheaply. All tghey need is a sewing machine, because they can order the panels cut out by a plotting company and don't even need to order a whole roll of sailcloth, so they can make to order and not have money tied up in stock. The problem comes when you place an order for, say, 500 sails to be delivered in 6-8 weeks. You can't cut sails out one at a time. They need to be bulk cut and that doesn't come cheap. You need a bank of machinists. The capital investment in the plant adds significant cost. You need to buy the cloth and component parts in bulk, in advance. The savings for bulk don't pay for the plant and up front investment in materials. Then there is an issue of quality. People complain about inconsistencies in Laser sails and that is from plants that are ISO9001 certified (which costs a lot to get). Start bulk manufacturing without that sort of standard and process in place and you get a nightmare in quality, as has been seen in the past with other classes. None of this comes cheap and none of this is included in the price of "training sails" and we haven't even started talking about stocking and distribution costs.

I suspect that it might be possible to reduce the cost of sails a bit but I would be very surprised if there really were big savings to be had.

If the above logic was true then all these large companies mass producing things clearly have got it wrong. The world tells us otherwise. 

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On ‎5‎/‎11‎/‎2019 at 9:19 PM, Sailabout said:

there are some posts here where a US laser dealer made a laminate squarehead sail so guys over 90kg could sail the laser competitively.

They did lots of testing, presented to the ILCA for a vote but got nowhere, it retailed for USD100 less

It should have been voted down.  If you're 90kg and not competitive it's not your body weight that's hurting you it's your skippering ability!  I'm a touch over 90kg and fully capable of winning races in my district, (and others) in any conditions from drifters to 20+.

However. when I branch out to NA's and other big league championship events I do get sorted into the 20's for results, but it's my skill level in the boat.  Not my weight!  

 

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

I believe Steve Clark's earlier comments on this point is more informed than me or anyone else here.  :)

Anyway we shall see.  An Olympic slot selection is not finalized for a while if I recall and I was really surprised Andy was saying they didn't even  know yet or would deal later with the issue of event boats supply.

I just really wonder - given the history dating long prior to LPE -  if any one builder can make a go of it never mind multiple builders in a territory.  Really surprised they would rush a vote with so much uncertainty around the things that would seem to matter the most to actual class members but ILCA seem to be executing a well thought out plan up to now so I must be missing something.

I am also morbidly curious what LPE will do.  Seems like so far its just been issuing misleading statements if you believe the ILCA comments in this thread (which I do).  Its like the war is over without anyone actually firing a shot!

I didn’t say, ILCA doesn’t know, I said I didn’t know. The leadership team are working all the issues  

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46 minutes ago, aroy210677 said:

I didn’t say, ILCA doesn’t know, I said I didn’t know. The leadership team are working all the issues  

Good point; sorry, my bad!  Thanks for the correction. To me, you are ILCA!!

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1 hour ago, aroy210677 said:

I didn’t say, ILCA doesn’t know, I said I didn’t know. The leadership team are working all the issues  

Hi,

      Playing devil's advocate again... it seems UKLA are neutral and EurILCA would prefer we voted against ILCA's name change...

 Given that the status quo seems ok from a strictly local perspective... why should UK Laser sailors vote for the name change, given the apparent risk that it would significantly disrupt the supply of gear, compromise the businesses of friends in the trade and potentially kill the class, if the new manufacturers can't make a go of it for any reason...?

 I'm thinking that if there are compelling reasons it would be a good idea to disseminate them to UKLA members, many of whom are probably not well informed (I can tell from discussions ongoing here, that I'm not, for one!!!).

Cheers,

              W.

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28 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      Playing devil's advocate again... it seems UKLA are neutral and EurILCA would prefer we voted against ILCA's name change...

 Given that the status quo seems ok from a strictly local perspective... why should UK Laser sailors vote for the name change, given the apparent risk that it would significantly disrupt the supply of gear, compromise the businesses of friends in the trade and potentially kill the class, if the new manufacturers can't make a go of it for any reason...?

 I'm thinking that if there are compelling reasons it would be a good idea to disseminate them to UKLA members, many of whom are probably not well informed (I can tell from discussions ongoing here, that I'm not, for one!!!).

Cheers,

              W.

The name change is what it is. The change of builders is the real issue.  IMHO, as long as ILCA can tell voters - in advance of or concurrent with sending out the ballot - a succinct plan and timing for appointing 2 or more new builders in the UK and the Continent, a couple in North America, plus others globally, there should be less hesitation for UK and Euro sailors. More builders should also strengthen the Olympic bid case. 

 

On 5/12/2019 at 12:29 AM, Gouvernail said:

...Considering the builders’ track record, I am concerned about ANY new Laser builder. 

... It would be VERY EASY for Lasers to become known as the crappy cheap junky boat

I am optimistic that the RFP process will separate those dedicated to building a quality product from those who will produce pieces of shit. Plus - there will be no "special orders"...

Related image 

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41 minutes ago, bill4 said:

 The change of builders is the real issue.  IMHO, as long as ILCA can tell voters - in advance of or concurrent with sending out the ballot - a succinct plan and timing for appointing 2 or more new builders in the UK and the Continent, a couple in North America, plus others globally, there should be less hesitation for UK and Euro sailors. More builders should also strengthen the Olympic bid case. 

 

I am optimistic that the RFP process will separate those dedicated to building a quality product from those who will produce pieces of shit.

Bill - having returned to my cruising roots I am not in touch with those racing anymore. So am curious your view on this.  I am totally with you that quality should not be an issue given the construction manual and inspections and I too hope ILCA lines up the ducks rather than rushing into a vote.  But as noted earlier I worry about the viability of any new builder especially when its builderS and how that impacts on votes.

I gather you and most here know the history and string of those not able to make a go building lasers for these LPE territories.  And now we want multiple builders (plural!!) to make the same capital investment LPE did, and supply boats at the same price, and offer better service, all in a much smaller territory than LPE, and even face competition within their territory (can't wait to see if there is a competitor to PSA in their territory but that is a different thing), and supply event boats when its clearly not in their best interest to do so.  I just fear this is not a viable economic model for e builder.  The ask almost seems to violate basic economic theory as we all know it?!  Can ILCA get somebody to sign on... sure... maybe... but will there be anyone left long term.... I wonder.  More simply said, true good to be true might be just that!?

  * Do you as an ILCA class member and voter have this same builder viability (customer price, event boat supply) concern and if so how could the class address it prior to a vote?

  * Alternately, if the price of boats goes up by say 40% and/or there are no longer any event boats for charter (or the price of charter increases significantly) is it a real concern or more of a non-issue for somebody like you?

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25 minutes ago, Wess said:

Bill - having returned to my cruising roots I am not in touch with those racing anymore. So am curious your view on this.  I am totally with you that quality should not be an issue given the construction manual and inspections and I too hope ILCA lines up the ducks rather than rushing into a vote.  But as noted earlier I worry about the viability of any new builder especially when its builderS and how that impacts on votes.

I gather you and most here know the history and string of those not able to make a go building lasers for these LPE territories.  And now we want multiple builders (plural!!) to make the same capital investment LPE did, and supply boats at the same price, and offer better service, all in a much smaller territory than LPE, and even face competition within their territory (can't wait to see if there is a competitor to PSA in their territory but that is a different thing), and supply event boats when its clearly not in their best interest to do so.  I just fear this is not a viable economic model for e builder.  The ask almost seems to violate basic economic theory as we all know it?!  Can ILCA get somebody to sign on... sure... maybe... but will there be anyone left long term.... I wonder.  More simply said, true good to be true might be just that!?

  * Do you as an ILCA class member and voter have this same builder viability (customer price, event boat supply) concern and if so how could the class address it prior to a vote?

  * Alternately, if the price of boats goes up by say 40% and/or there are no longer any event boats for charter (or the price of charter increases significantly) is it a real concern or more of a non-issue for somebody like you?

If I were an ILCA class representative taking applications from wanna be builders I'd give top priority to the builder who is already secure with another line, (or perhaps multiple lines) of watercraft already being built in an existing facility with years of experience under their belt.  It does not necessarily need to be a sailboat manufacturer, (Does Tierra ring a bell to anyone?).  There's no way the ILCA on it's own generates enough builds to sustain a shop.  However, put it into an existing rotation I'm sure it would be a decent filler.  Especially if it stays in the Olympics.  Just my $0.02 worth...  

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Good point; sorry, my bad!  Thanks for the correction. To me, you are ILCA!!

I do not believe there has been a confirmation that this person is a current member of the ILCA World Council. A simple yes or no is all that is needed. 

If the answer is yes then is this person speaking on behalf of the ILCA or just for themselves.

One way or the other it is pretty irrelevant but would be interesting to know  but understandable as to why no direct answer 

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4 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Hi,

      Playing devil's advocate again... it seems UKLA are neutral and EurILCA would prefer we voted against ILCA's name change...

 I'm thinking that if there are compelling reasons it would be a good idea to disseminate them to UKLA members, many of whom are probably not well informed (I can tell from discussions ongoing here, that I'm not, for one!!!).

Cheers,

              W.

The goal is to keep the boat in the Olympics; WS requires multiple builders and FRAND. LP has so far refused to grant licenses to the Laser trademark so, in order to be able to have multiple builders, the name must be changed.

A vote against a name change will force the boat out of the Olympics.

E

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11 minutes ago, Emilio Castelli said:

The goal is to keep the boat in the Olympics; WS requires multiple builders and FRAND. LP has so far refused to grant licenses to the Laser trademark so, in order to be able to have multiple builders, the name must be changed.

A vote against a name change will force the boat out of the Olympics.

E

Did you get any kind of update this past weekend  on what is happening?

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29 minutes ago, Emilio Castelli said:

The goal is to keep the boat in the Olympics; WS requires multiple builders and FRAND. LP has so far refused to grant licenses to the Laser trademark so, in order to be able to have multiple builders, the name must be changed.

A vote against a name change will force the boat out of the Olympics.

E

But is that really bad? I really wonder if the class might not actually be better off if it wasn’t an Olympic class. It would force everyone to focus a bit more on growing at the grass roots and club level. This is not intended or implied criticism of ILCA - club level sailors generally don’t join in large numbers and so aren’t members that can drive class direction - but if the class focused more there and less on retaining the Olympic slot the future might be different no?

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56 minutes ago, VWAP said:

I do not believe there has been a confirmation that this person is a current member of the ILCA World Council. A simple yes or no is all that is needed. 

If the answer is yes then is this person speaking on behalf of the ILCA or just for themselves.

One way or the other it is pretty irrelevant but would be interesting to know  but understandable as to why no direct answer 

Fair but the more you travel and spend lots of time in different cultures you can appreciate that not everyone likes or responds directly to direct questions. There was enough there so that it’s clear to me at least that it is him. And for sure he is speaking for himself not ILCA. 

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26 minutes ago, Wess said:

Fair but the more you travel and spend lots of time in different cultures you can appreciate that not everyone likes or responds directly to direct questions. There was enough there so that it’s clear to me at least that it is him. And for sure he is speaking for himself not ILCA. 

Yes

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54 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Did you get any kind of update this past weekend  on what is happening?

Tracy is tired and needs a haircut.

E

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34 minutes ago, Wess said:

But is that really bad? I really wonder if the class might not actually be better off if it wasn’t an Olympic class. It would force everyone to focus a bit more on growing at the grass roots and club level. This is not intended or implied criticism of ILCA - club level sailors generally don’t join in large numbers and so aren’t members that can drive class direction - but if the class focused more there and less on retaining the Olympic slot the future might be different no?

That's why there will be a vote. If the class does not care about staying in the Olympics, all we have to do is vote against a name change.

Personally I think having the boat in the Olympics is good for grass root sailing; we can get event boats cheaper  and we can get very lightly used sails for half price (and I mean really lightly used).

And you get to see how the boat can be sailed at top level.

But if the boat loses Olympic status, life will go on.

E

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22 minutes ago, Emilio Castelli said:

That's why there will be a vote. If the class does not care about staying in the Olympics, all we have to do is vote against a name change.

Personally I think having the boat in the Olympics is good for grass root sailing; we can get event boats cheaper  and we can get very lightly used sails for half price (and I mean really lightly used).

And you get to see how the boat can be sailed at top level.

But if the boat loses Olympic status, life will go on.

E

Suspect it’s more complicated than that. If you asked me yes or no to Olympics I vote and I think everyone votes yes to Olympics. I suspect this vote is about the shoe that hasn’t dropped and that’s less event boats and more expensive boats for a chance at maybe retaining Olympic status. But will also say again it’s a bit of a bogus vote. Once divorced from LPE - and that divorce is final like it or not - you simply have to change the name or you are going to be forced by LPE and a court to change it. 

Botton line: I think the fat lady has already sung. Most just missed the song.

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4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I never have decided where I stand on the Olympic status thing. 

1. I think it is an absolute farce to have Sailboat Racing  in the Olympics but not have the only boat that is raced worldwide . 

2. The Laser was doing just fine from 1969 to 1996 and it could be argued the Laser World Championship was always harder to win than any Olympic gold medal. Even after the Laser became Olympic, The Laser world championship fleet has always been deeper than any Olympics. 

Example: 1982... Two Canadians placed 1 and Two. If it had been the Olympics Andy would have been on a coach boat cheering for his training buddy . 

 

In some years now the Laser world’s are not even held. They do an IYRU event instead with very limited entry. Guys like Eric Faust (who got in to a world’s as something like the 15th NA Qualifier) or me, who got in simply by winning District 15 would never get to sail their fantasy world championship if the boat stays Olympic. 

——-

Overall it is cool to sail a toy used innthe Olympics, but I am not happy about the fact our games resources often end up being sucked up by the Olympic related crap. 

There is a feeling of “we are going to take over your playground and sometimes we won’t even let you play.”

One HUGE GREAT THING about sailboat Racing has been the fact I could race against Paul Elvstrom, Dick Tillman, Ian Bruce, Robert Scheidt, and Peter Seidenberg. Wednesday night I will rig up and race against kids who have never heard of any of those guys. 

I just wish I could buy a new boat so I could put another kid in another one of my old ones. 

 

Plus one million!

Share a lot of your passion and interests but you drive me nuts sometimes with irrelevant rants.... 

.... but man every word of that is so on point...

Plus one million. You said it best and far better than I could.

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35 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

1. I think it is an absolute farce to have Sailboat Racing  in the Olympics but not have the only boat that is raced worldwide . 

hard agree. they might as well throw sailing out of the games if they get rid of the laser (the ONLY boat that actually qualifies to be there).

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2 hours ago, Emilio Castelli said:

 

A vote against a name change will force the boat out of the Olympics.

E

Why?  As far as I can find out, with a reasonable amount of care there can still be an International Laser Class Association. It merely has to make it reasonably apparent that it does not have "official" PS support, and that it is engaged in running sailboat races for Lasers and ILCA dinghies rather than supplying Laser (TM) sailboats and equipment.

 

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

Why?  As far as I can find out, with a reasonable amount of care there can still be an International Laser Class Association. It merely has to make it reasonably apparent that it does not have "official" PS support, and that it is engaged in running sailboat races for Lasers and ILCA dinghies rather than supplying Laser (TM) sailboats and equipment.

 

For ILCA dinghies to exist, the class has to approve the name change. If there is no name change there will be no frand and WS will not use the Laser anymore because they run the risk of being sued.

My hope is that now that LP is no longer an approved builder, the parties will meet and LP will agree to frand and be re-instated as a builder. If they do, we could possibly move forward keeping the Laser name and having multiple builders. This is just hope though; LP has not acted rationally in the past and I doubt they'll start now.

E

 

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i'm unclear on how this works. As I understand it, the name must change, right? If the class votes down a name change, but LP does not allow ILCA to use the trademark, what happens then? Is the class then voting on what the name must change to and not allowance of a name change?

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1 minute ago, dgmckim said:

i'm unclear on how this works. As I understand it, the name must change, right? If the class votes down a name change, but LP does not allow ILCA to use the trademark, what happens then? Is the class then voting on what the name must change to and not allowance of a name change?

Seems to me if the name change doesn't go through, then the only place you can buy a boat in which you can compete in a World Sailing event is from PSA or PSJ. 

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1 minute ago, bill4 said:

Seems to me if the name change doesn't go through, then the only place you can buy a boat in which you can compete in a World Sailing event is from PSA or PSJ. 

but isn't that problematic, too since sales/etc are restricted to certain regions by certain manufacturers? It still can't be a Laser since the trademark for NA etc is owned by LP? is that wrong or do i misunderstand

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Just now, dgmckim said:

but isn't that problematic, too since sales/etc are restricted to certain regions by certain manufacturers?

I believe PSA and PSJ can sell worldwide, but I am happy to be corrected.

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2 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I believe PSA and PSJ can sell worldwide, but I am happy to be corrected.

I don't think PSA and PSJ can sell boats trademarked as Lasers in territories where LP owns the Laser trademark. LP have won at least one lawsuit against PSA for an attempt to do this in the past.

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

I don't think PSA and PSJ can sell boats trademarked as Lasers in territories where LP owns the Laser trademark. LP have won at least one lawsuit against PSA for an attempt to do this in the past.

Sounds like a name change is the only way to go!

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I do like Emilio's idea of allowing LP back in the game after they make appropriate concessions. Their 'territory' would obviously be smaller.

Whistling against the wind?

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14 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

I do like Emilio's idea of allowing LP back in the game after they make appropriate concessions. Their 'territory' would obviously be smaller.

Whistling against the wind?

Will there even be "territories" in the brave new world of the ILCA Dinghy? I am sure  I read somewhere (but am too lazy to look for it now) that every builder would be able to sell ILCA Dinghies anywhere in the world.

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so, no one really answered the question I asked. How can they put the right to a name change to a vote (which could be rejected) if the trademark restrictions forbids them from using 'Laser'? There's no choice but to change the name. It cannot be 'Laser' in one of the global regions if LP doesn't allow use of their trademark.

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Fair use, no? If I like building things out of Lego, it's not as if I must never say the "L" word. In fact I think I could form a Lego club and hold Lego parties. 

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2 minutes ago, spankoka said:

Fair use, no? If I like building things out of Lego, it's not as if I must never say the "L" word. 

But ILCA just doesn't want to play with Lego, it wants to appoint new Lego manufacturers. That's where they will run into trouble with the company who owns the Lego trademark for most of the world.

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2 hours ago, Emilio Castelli said:

For ILCA dinghies to exist, the class has to approve the name change. If there is no name change there will be no frand and WS will not use the Laser anymore because they run the risk of being sued.

My hope is that now that LP is no longer an approved builder, the parties will meet and LP will agree to frand and be re-instated as a builder. If they do, we could possibly move forward keeping the Laser name and having multiple builders. This is just hope though; LP has not acted rationally in the past and I doubt they'll start now.

E

 

Why?

What is stopping PSJ, for example, from building ILCA dinghies and selling them over the internet to people in the UK etc?  That may satisfy FRAND.

Under what part of trademark law can PS stop anyone using the term International Laser Class Association, running events for Lasers, and using the Laser symbol as long as proper care is taken to ensure that it is apparent to the reasonable observer that they are not using LP's trademark in a way that breaches the law? As far as I can see from my research, anyone can run a Toyota Car Club and run Toyota Car Rallies, for example.  They just have to make it obvious that they are not using Toyota's trademarks in the wrong way. For example, there was a significant case involving an unauthorised Ferrari owner's club, but Ferrari seems to have won only on the use of the logo, not the term "Ferrari".

Is there anything actually stopping ILCA from adding a section to the class rules, as they did when they created the 4.7 and Radial, referring to ILCA dinghies?  Don't some of the same principles possibly apply to the ILCA dinghy as to the Radial and 4.7? For example, the Constitution says that the class name is the International Laser Class Association and that it uses the Laser symbol, but that doesn't stop them from also running Laser (TM) Radial events and the 4.7 having a different symbol. 

Obviously the Constitution is read with some sense - for example it states that it shall "be the policy of the Association to maintain the Laser as the epitome of a strict one-design class of sailboat" but the term "one design" has obviously mean read to mean "three different one designs" and "strict" has been mean to read allowing alterations and updates. The fact that the name of the class is the International Laser Class Association has not stopped them from running events for Laser Radials, Laser Ms and Laser 4.7s so are we sure that it cannot run races for ILCA Dinghies that also allow Lasers to race?
 

I'm not saying that ILCA is definitely in the clear - I'm saying that I can't find and have not seen any clear indication that they may not be OK to keep on running even without a name change.

 

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On 5/11/2019 at 11:29 PM, Gouvernail said:

Considering the builders’ track record, I am concerned about ANY new Laser builder. 

The fact is, every new set of Laser building staff has built some absolute garbage. Vanguard and LP did not build garbage at first because each simply bought an existing shop, kept the experienced workers, and continued. 

Lasers may be simple but the deck is super easy to build as garbage. The deck to hull attachment system is a primitive method using  a primitive  easy to screw up adhesive system. New laminator employees take about three years to mostly quit making tragic mistakes. There are a whole lot of little things that make the difference between building very nice Lasers and crap that isn’t quite right and needs to be finished properly by the customer.

if there are two new NA builders I fear one or both will suck. Our game is facing its first significant competition from another singlehander in years.

RS builds solid clean boats that work. It would be VERY EASY for Lasers to become known as the crappy cheap junky boat. 

The used-to-be-laser IS the crappy cheap junky boat. It’s just that everyone has one.

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Under current contracts, any individual can buy a Laser directly from any builder - LP put a statement out to this effect.  So an Italian can buy a PSJ boat, but you’d have to ship it half way round the world.

Therefore the Laser class can in theory continue without a European builder, but in practise it is difficult, hence the (proposed) name change.

When ILCA announced the name change (now altered to just a proposal), I felt the statements were deliberately coy about whether it was the name of the boat, the class or the class association that they were changing. I do not see, for example, how the International Laser Class Association can represent ILCAs but not (all) Lasers without causing confusion and being accused of being misleading.  

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But there is absolutely no principle that says that a sporting body's name has to closely describe all the gear it caters for, nor would it be workable. The International Laser Class Association has never represented all Lasers since whenever the Laser II class broke away. It's never represented Laser SB20s, Laser 4000s, Laser 2000s, Laser 3000s, Laser 28s or Laser Picos. Not only that, it has stopped representing the Laser II and the Laser M.

The International Windsurfer Class Association does not represent all windsurfers and no one seems to have said it's very confusing. The International Moth Class Association makes no attempt to represent British Moths, NZ Restricted Moths, or Classic Moths and no one seems to be confused.  The International Funboard Association certainly does not represent all Funboards, the International Raceboard class bans many, many Raceboards, the International Hobie Class Association does not represent all Hobies, the A Class and F16 associations certainly make no attempt to cater for all the boats that can fit into their class rules. The International 420 association does not represent all 420s; it seems to ignore the strong Club 420 class and LP's own modified Club420. The National Solo Association does not cover all solo sailors; the Shorthanded Sailing Association does not cover everyone who sails singlehanded or two up.

The ILCA doesn't even cater for LP-built standard Lasers that don't have a rig retaining line, the rudder at the right angle, or that use an I-sail so it is obvious to anyone that it only caters for a sub section of kit, just like every other sporting body does.

It's not even as if this is unique to sailing. The International Cycling body does not cater to all bicycles, the swimming association does not cater to all swimming events, the polo association probably doesn't cater to all types of polo.

There are so many sporting associations that don't even attempt to cater for all the types that have their name and seem to fit within their general rules that any charge levelled at the ILCA would catch many of the world's sporting bodies - even World Sailing does not cater to all forms of sailing and no one seems to think that's misleading. It seems that there is almost no chance that anyone would expect a sporting body's titles to describe exactly what equipment it caters for. One suspects that if World Sailing claims that ILCA's name is misleading then World Sailing is going to need a new letterhead itself - World Sailing That Is Not Ice Sailing, Some Canoe Sailing, Skate Sailing, Snow Sailing, Land Sailing, Commercial Sailing or Cruising Sailing. Try fitting WSTINISSCSSSSSLSCSCS onto a website.

 

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Whilst I expect that's true Cs, I imagine that ILCA will also be very keen to do absolutely everything they can to minimise the chance of lawsuits. It doesn't help much if you win in the end if it costs you five years of money, grief and distraction.

 

Its mildly amusing to note that International Yacht Racing Union was a narrow but basically accurate description, and successive names have got broader and broader in scope without the activity covered expanding very much. 

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14 hours ago, VWAP said:

I do not believe there has been a confirmation that this person is a current member of the ILCA World Council. A simple yes or no is all that is needed. 

If the answer is yes then is this person speaking on behalf of the ILCA or just for themselves.

One way or the other it is pretty irrelevant but would be interesting to know  but understandable as to why no direct answer 

Hello “VWAP” (?).  It’s  “This person” here. Yes, member of ILCA WC.  No, not “speaking on behalf of the ILCA”. Just providing a little info here and there. 

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11 hours ago, Emilio Castelli said:

For ILCA dinghies to exist, the class has to approve the name change. If there is no name change there will be no frand and WS will not use the Laser anymore because they run the risk of being sued.

My hope is that now that LP is no longer an approved builder, the parties will meet and LP will agree to frand and be re-instated as a builder. If they do, we could possibly move forward keeping the Laser name and having multiple builders. This is just hope though; LP has not acted rationally in the past and I doubt they'll start now.

E

 

E - There ain't much I agree with LPE about but this may be one.  Nobody seem to know exactly what is needed to be FRAND compliant.  The LPE statement on FRAND seems to me on its face to be reasonable. Go back in the thread and read how Aero does it (claims they are FRAND).  OMG, if that pig in lipstick approach is FRAND compliant then what we had in the Laser class prior to this mess would meet the WS test as well and frankly is more consumer friendly.  If you buy WW (or nearly WW rights) to a trademark its a bit unfair to be forced to give them up for no gain and especially if its not clear you have to. And given the Aero example its not at all clear to me that they have to. 

9 hours ago, tillerman said:

But ILCA just doesn't want to play with Lego, it wants to appoint new Lego manufacturers. That's where they will run into trouble with the company who owns the Lego trademark for most of the world.

For the rest of you arguing over the name change please read Tiller above.  Or go back a few pages and read IPLores comments which are very clear and specific.  The boat's name gotta change and once you are doing that its wise to change the organization name too.  No point in incurring legal fees when you don't have to. 

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Unless World Sailing interprets FRAND differently to other industries, no way is the Aero currently FRAND compliant. To be truly FRAND anyone should be able to build and sell the boat directly provided they pay a fair and reasonable license fee to the License holder. No “qualification” of builders, no RS approval(other than agreement if fair and reasonable fee). And that would apply to sails and other aftermarket parts - so essentially open sailmaker on very tight tolerances. 

I find it odd that the recent evaluation report specifically excludes FRAND when it appears so central to WS dictat.  Indeed the Aero was praised for its single manufacturer having sufficient capacity whilst the D Zero, which came closest to offering a FRAND approach, was criticised for not having sufficient quality control in place for its open builder approach. I’m not sure how consistent WS are being on this. 

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1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

 I’m not sure how consistent WS are being on this. 

Absolutely agree.  From the outside looking in it feels like a moving target. 

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