Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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50 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

Phew, there certainly are cultural differences, what is your first language?

Same as all humans: Gibberish.

50 minutes ago, Mambo Kings said:

A double negative? .....so you are trying to say it is OK for commercial interests to pay sailing  association executives.........and you are not trying to say it is not OK.

I was being very explicit in what I didn't mean. ;) 

Actually, commercial interests paying sailing association executives is a very serious issue that a certain class association faces right now. I shouldn't joke about it. It is an issue that in my view needs the attention of World Sailing - otherwise, what is the point of having rules on ethics if they are not enforced?

English is my first language; and I'm very comfortable in my ability to write.

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On 5/26/2019 at 10:38 AM, Gouvernail said:

I cannot remember any who went into a position of authority with malice for the game.

Governance is very important.

I agree, that 99.999% of the selfless volunteers make the game possible.

But there is the occasional bad apple. 

Where I see there is a potential problem is when a commercial interest pays an official to help 'fix' things for their benefit.

This from the ILCA constitution:

Quote

5. The Association has authority over all activities of the Laser Class throughout the world, and its powers shall be vested in and carried out by the World Council, Regional Executive Committees, District Associations and Fleets as provided in this Constitution and any By-Laws passed pursuant to the provisions hereof; all subject to and in accordance with the General Rules and By-Laws of the International Sailing Federation.

World Sailing has rules about conflicts of interest, and a register of declared interests. Also rules about bribery.

This is a sensitive subject, but it need not be. The only person on the ILCA World Council to declare their interests is Takao Otani. Why? Do these rules not apply to the ILCA World Council? If they don't, then maybe they should. And for the exec of the National Laser Associations.

---

The letter from Alexandra Behrens (President, Germany / At Large Member, ILCA World Council) is remarkable in how similar in content it was with LPE's public calls for the ILCA Exec to be replaced. If there is a financial connection, then that potential conflict needs to be announced, and the German ILCA members would in my view benefit from knowing exactly who Alexandra Behrens is representing.

These are volatile times and transparency is a good thing.

---

Wondering what the result is with the ILCA/WS/PSA/PSJ/LPE meeting.

It was last week and I have yet to hear anything official.

The outcome may impact how quickly the North American supply issues are resolved - it is important that Gouv gets his toys!

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15 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

I have absolutely no idea what point you intended but that which you wrote suggests

One in hundred thousand volunteers don’t make the game possible?

One in 100,000 sounds about right. (I'm an optimist, small "o", no pun intended.)

Sailing when the game is run by bad apples is still possible, but wayyyyy less fun. My want is for execs to be working for the benefit of the sailors, with any conflicts of interest announced. If an exec gets paid to "fix things" for some entity with a financial interest, then  there should be clear rules on how that is dealt with.

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Question: Gantt, Are you  suggesting we have someone who is being directly influenced financially by outside entities? 

That is a serious allegation which shouid only be made with names and supporting facts 

Like this?

14 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

The letter from Alexandra Behrens (President, Germany / At Large Member, ILCA World Council) is remarkable in how similar in content it was with LPE's public calls for the ILCA Exec to be replaced. If there is a financial connection, then that potential conflict needs to be announced, and the German ILCA members would in my view benefit from knowing exactly who Alexandra Behrens is representing.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

@Gantt Next thing you will be warning us to look for the same activities that brought down the FIFA executives. 

Should we be closely inspecting the flow of money from prospective Laser World Championship Hosts? 

Hell, I missed out totally on that opportunity.  Two decades  ago, I could have been raking in the bribes to schedule major North American regattas at venues where the chambers of commerce understood the benefits of hosting. If their hosting proposal had included an envelope with a half million $$$ I wouldn’t have scheduled the Canadian Nationals in Edmonton but had they offered  funds to others who cared more about money and less about quality sailing they might have had some success. 

Indeed, it appears you have missed out. I think of it more as a genetic disposition in your case. ;)  And here's the rub. ILCA history shows that rumours of wrong doing have led to the wrongful demise of at least one volunteer who clearly had the best interests of Laser sailing at heart - you. Declaring conflicts of interest is a great way to get this in the open, particularly when combined with the policy of declaring gifts. Defining conflicts and bribes is only a half measure, there needs to be follow through.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Note: I wouid not have a problem with an outside  entity offering funding to the Association as a quid pro quo. The  officers couid certainly consider and decide whether the deal was good for the sailing game . Certainly they wouid turn down any deal that did not benefit the sailing game. 

Indeed, we live in very strange times. One of the sponsors of World Sailing is MacLaren, makers of strollers. It does not take a marketing genius to question how strange that is, particularly since the age and gender of most who sail is not the same as those who purchase strollers. Also, the timing was strange too, the acceptance of the MacLaren sponsorship was made at a time when the owner of MacLaren, Farzad Rastegar, who also owns Laser Performance, was defending himself in a legal action. I'm sure that World Sailing was pleased to have the sponsorship, in addition to the income from the Plaques. Strangely, this was at a time where Laser Performance was gaining a reputation for not paying its bills.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

An  officer who wouid directly take benefits from an outside source in exchange for application of influence inntge operations of the Association would be an entirely different matter. 

The decision to change the fundamental rule was made on the basis that contracts were no longer valid. Heini Wellmann made the statements that showed his lack of knowledge of the IYRU agreement, and Jeff Martin (ILCA's signatory to the IYRU Agreement) stood by and said nothing. How could that possibly have happened? There were rumours that Laser Performance was paying Jeff Martin to influence ILCA and World Sailing. These rumours in my view continue to be damaging to the reputation of the now deceased Martin, who had dedicated decades of his life to the benefit of Laser sailing.

The point I'm making here is that by declaring conflicts of interest and gifts gives a transparency that quashes these rumours.

1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Question: Gantt, Are you  suggesting we have someone who is being directly influenced financially by outside entities? 

That is a serious allegation which shouid only be made with names and supporting facts 

Here, on this thread, this statement was made:

In my view the Europeans do pay attention to the rest of the world, and have a similar view on ethics that led to World Sailing's adoption of the conflict of interest and bribery policies.

So now the rumours are targeting Alexandra Behrens (President, Germany / At Large Member, ILCA World Council), with additional things being said in private. Her extraordinary letter calling for the resignation of the ILCA exec drew attention to herself.

Decisions to appoint new builders are being made, so the stakes are high. It is very important in my view that the members of the ILCA World Council are seen to be acting in the interests of their members. Having a conflict of interest isn't wrong per se, however not declaring it is. The minutes should show that when conflicts exist, those who have the conflict abstain from voting.

Knowing the difference between a conflict of interest and a bribe may appear simple, though there are murky areas exploited by those who intend to deceive. The point of having a clear policy is to give little room for such deceit.

I agree Gouv, this is a very serious topic.

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Making allegations in this forum - with absolutely no supporting information - that a respected member of the ILCA World Council is being improperly influenced financially by outside entities is very serious.

Even my lawnmower would not sink so low.

 

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19 hours ago, Gantt said:

The letter from Alexandra Behrens (President, Germany / At Large Member, ILCA World Council) is remarkable in how similar in content it was with LPE's public calls for the ILCA Exec to be replaced.

Its only actually remarkable if both were written at the same time. If there's a time gap between the first being made public and the second one being written then the second may simply be copying the first. You can agree with another party without there being anything untoward going on you know.

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14 minutes ago, JimC said:

Its only actually remarkable if both were written at the same time. If there's a time gap between the first being made public and the second one being written then the second may simply be copying the first. You can agree with another party without there being anything untoward going on you know.

It may seem strange to Laser sailors in some parts of the world, but when a boat manufacturer is doing a good job of servicing buyers of their boats - even if only part of the world - it would be quite normal for a local class official to express support for the builder's position in a dispute of this nature. 

 

 

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5 hours ago, bill4 said:

Like this?

Since Gantt liked my comment, I best clarify. I was referring to the allegation being made by Gantt. I don't consider the letters as evidence of anything and I certainly don't support this position at all. 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Making allegations in this forum - with absolutely no supporting information - that a respected member of the ILCA World Council is being improperly influenced financially by outside entities is very serious.

Even my lawnmower would not sink so low.

 

Earlier in this very thread, many people - including you, apparently - accepted LP's allegation that PSA had made illegal boats on ILCA's watch. There was no supporting information of any probative value for that allegation.

Surely it is not OK to accept some damning allegations with no supporting information but not others?

 

 

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On 5/26/2019 at 7:59 AM, Gantt said:

 

Actually, commercial interests paying sailing association executives is a very serious issue that a certain class association faces right now. 

Sorry, where is the evidence that a commercial interest is paying anyone from EURILCA?

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42 minutes ago, Curious said:

Earlier in this very thread, many people - including you, apparently - accepted LP's allegation that PSA had made illegal boats on ILCA's watch. There was no supporting information of any probative value for that allegation.

Surely it is not OK to accept some damning allegations with no supporting information but not others?

 

 

I realize your comment is not aimed at me but come on even ILCA’s own statement and even their recent letter to WS support a position that PSA did in fact produce non compliant boats which sadly where allowed to be and remain plaqued. One of the rare things I would disagree with ILCA about.

And please stop quoting the damn unethical lawnmower. 

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Where did ILCA admit it?

LP released a notice from ILCA to PSA which contains allegations, but  to me it looked like what we call a "show cause" notice. It detailed allegations so that PSA could respond, NOT because those allegations had been proven. That's standard procedure in many regulatory/enforcement environments. It is also significant that PSA did not admit those allegations, and I believe that Aroy has also denied that the events occurred. If I remember rightly, there were statements that there were "options" in the layout schedule and it may be that PSA simply chose a different option or a different reasonable definition of the schedule.

The fact that LP only published part of the documents is itself possibly significant. If they have actual damning information and are happy to release information that is normally confidential then why not release the smoking gun?

I'm probably in the worst position of anyone here if PSA did build faster boats since I have a mint older one and I'm returning to serious racing against world champs with newer PSA boats. Oddly enough it seems that I'm faster when stiffness should count.*

PSA also alleged that LPE changed a layup before PSA did, but for some reason that allegation has been ignored by people who accept LP's allegation.

* I didn't buy a newer one because as I noted here, I'm unhappy with the released statements by ILCA and PSA about the new rigs. That should indicate that I'm not an ILCA/PSA poodle.

 

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On 4/5/2019 at 4:33 AM, BlatantEcho said:

The Italian, German and Dutch dealers all serve those three entire countries with just three dealers.
You don't think they aren't going to come out strongly and support LP??  Of course they are.  They are isolated and the three most powerful people in Europe for Laser sailing.  That's where their bread is buttered guys, get a clue.

Let's say that BlatantEcho, who indicated a conflict of interest is correct, and (I have no information to doubt him.)

How Wess responded is of interest.

On 4/5/2019 at 8:47 AM, Wess said:

Why do you think this?  EurILCA should be controlled by its members and its members are Laser sailors, no?   If those sailors are happy with the service they get from their dealers and LPE and want to keep them then EurILCA's position is quite reasonable and appropriate.  If they are working at cross interest to their members - the sailors - that will become quite clear pretty fast.  Its odd though that its EurILCA that is saying this stuff should be taken to the sailors for a vote.  Its ILCA that seem to be taking unilateral action both with LPE and the rigs without seek member input.  I am not a fan of the position (current or past) of ILCA but can certainly agree they should adopt a position that supports the views of its members (even if I don't happen to like or agree it).  Same way I would expect EurILCA to support and align with its European members/sailors and not US or sailors from some other region.

Why are you seemingly critical of an organization adopting a position aligned with its members interest... isn't that what they are supposed to do??

I mean I wish ILCA and EurILCA would adopt positions more aligned with grass roots and club level Laser sailor... but those folks ain't join so I can't hardly blame either organization for doing what their members want.

(Note that Wess concludes earlier that I'm unethical by saying "And please stop quoting the damn unethical lawnmower.", yet Wess also claims that he has blocked me, so can't read my posts.)

Tillerman weighed in, electing to share an OPED by Sailing Illustrated, which shares Alexandra Behrens' position, a good move, since it documents her position against the ILCA decisions. Later Tillerman said:

On 4/6/2019 at 6:08 AM, tillerman said:

Alexandra Behrens - President of the German Laser Class recently posted on Facebook...

"Please note that there is NO statement of the German Laser Class. If somebody read my post correctly, he / she would notice that it is asking the German Laser sailors for their opinion about the ILCA press release. Since I voted against the termination of the LCMA by ILCA I also explained my reasons to do so. This is my personal opinion and NOT a statement of the German Laser Class. We may publish a statement but as a democratic organization I would not do so without knowing the opinion of the board and the members."

The source which I quoted has amended its post to make it clear that statement is from Ms Behrens - not the German Laser Class. 

Ms Behrens is also an At-Large Member of the ILCA World Council.

My point above was (and still is) that it is more important than ever to document any conflict of interests.

Whether BlatantEcho's comment is correct or not, is not really the issue. Wess in my view is 100% right to raise the question of ethics.

World Sailing's policy on conflicts includes:

Quote

2 Background
2.1 Parties have an obligation to act in the best interests of World Sailing and in accordance with the Constitution and Regulations.  They are expected to act impartially and objectively and to actively take steps to avoid Conflicts.
2.2 Conflicts matter because they affect discussions and decision-making and may result in decisions being reached that are not in the best interests of World Sailing.  They can give the impression – both internally and to the wider public – that improper conduct has occurred even when it has not.
2.3 Conflicts come in a number of different forms.  It is primarily the responsibility of each Party to identify if there is a Conflict or potential Conflict that may affect them or someone connected to them.
2.4 This Policy is not intended to adversely affect normal decision making within World Sailing.  It is intended to make it more transparent, and to allow the management of Conflicts that will inevitably arise.  It is important that management of a Conflict is proportionate to the risk that it poses to the best interests of World Sailing.

Which is why I said:

On 5/27/2019 at 3:12 PM, Gantt said:

World Sailing has rules about conflicts of interest, and a register of declared interests. Also rules about bribery.

This is a sensitive subject, but it need not be. The only person on the ILCA World Council to declare their interests is Takao Otani. Why? Do these rules not apply to the ILCA World Council? If they don't, then maybe they should. And for the exec of the National Laser Associations.

then:

11 hours ago, Gantt said:

Decisions to appoint new builders are being made, so the stakes are high. It is very important in my view that the members of the ILCA World Council are seen to be acting in the interests of their members. Having a conflict of interest isn't wrong per se, however not declaring it is. The minutes should show that when conflicts exist, those who have the conflict abstain from voting.

Knowing the difference between a conflict of interest and a bribe may appear simple, though there are murky areas exploited by those who intend to deceive. The point of having a clear policy is to give little room for such deceit.

 ---

Laser Performance said this on April 2:

Quote

The falsehoods and misrepresentations contained in the official ILCA announcement are disturbing since they reflect on the class organization and bear on the credibility of governance of the class.

Questions of impropriety have already been raised.

---

8 hours ago, tillerman said:

Making allegations in this forum - with absolutely no supporting information - that a respected member of the ILCA World Council is being improperly influenced financially by outside entities is very serious.

I agree.

And they are no less serious when allegations of impropriety are made outside of this forum, with or without supporting information.

World Sailing already has:

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1 hour ago, Gantt said:

My point above was (and still is) that it is more important than ever to document any conflict of interests.

But if there is no conflict of interests then there's nothing to document, and all we have is utterly unfounded allegations. There's surely not much doubt that a healthy relationship with the builder has been very good for the Laser class over the decades, and if her Association still has a healthy builder relationship then its certainly within her members' interests to support it. 

Worldwide, however, that relationship does not appear to be uniformly healthy, which is why the International assoc may take a different view. 

This is all perfectly reasonable folks, there's no need for these allegations and insinuations.

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2 minutes ago, JimC said:

This is all perfectly reasonable folks, there's no need for these allegations and insinuations.

Last week, in front of witnesses Farzad Rastegar, in what was described as an angry outburst claimed to have made payments to Jeff Martin and Alexandra Behrens.

These claims may or may not have been true, but bear further investigation.

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There's a court case going on in the UK at the moment which demonstrates nicely how easy it is to make invented allegations and how great the damage they cause to entirely innocent people's lives can be if they are made public.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

There's a court case going on in the UK at the moment which demonstrates nicely how easy it is to make invented allegations and how great the damage they cause to entirely innocent people's lives can be if they are made public.

Invented allegations?

I am satisfied that the outburst occurred as I mentioned above. I doubt Rastegar invented his claim, however, it remains a claim until corroborated.

Making the claim public

Dealing with this behind closed doors will not lead to the improvements that the ILCA needs. 

What's next?

In my view, the best step forward is to implement World Sailing's policy on conflicts of interest, ethics and bribery.

3 hours ago, Gantt said:

World Sailing's policy on conflicts includes:

Quote

2 Background
2.1 Parties have an obligation to act in the best interests of World Sailing and in accordance with the Constitution and Regulations.  They are expected to act impartially and objectively and to actively take steps to avoid Conflicts.
2.2 Conflicts matter because they affect discussions and decision-making and may result in decisions being reached that are not in the best interests of World Sailing.  They can give the impression – both internally and to the wider public – that improper conduct has occurred even when it has not.
2.3 Conflicts come in a number of different forms.  It is primarily the responsibility of each Party to identify if there is a Conflict or potential Conflict that may affect them or someone connected to them.
2.4 This Policy is not intended to adversely affect normal decision making within World Sailing.  It is intended to make it more transparent, and to allow the management of Conflicts that will inevitably arise.  It is important that management of a Conflict is proportionate to the risk that it poses to the best interests of World Sailing.

 

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I'm signed up to a similar policy because I serve on an RYA group. It does precisely nothing to stop or even limit invented allegations of corruption.

The whole Laser tangle has been full of distortions and selective editing of documents (from all sides) to make things appear entirely different to what they really were. Repeating a secondhand allegation of dubious provenance is highly irresponsible in my book. As I've said above, the end result may be that the only volunteers you get are those with rhinoceros thick hides. Whilst that may be a useful attribute, the pool of potential volunteers is already so small that few classes actually get to hold elections. If you make the pool even smaller what happens to the class administration?

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Gantt, you are implying that there is the slightest reason in the world to implement the policy on conflicts of interest. There has been no reasonable evidence to back that up. You say that you doubt that Rastegar invented his claim. That could be one hell of an inference you are making.  What evidence are you basing it on?  There have been many abusive outbursts towards you here - would you say there is no doubt that those outbursts are true? Why do you believe Rastegar's alleged outburst and not the outbursts directed against you?

It is HORRIFYING how many people do not understand the difference between an allegation and the truth.  A fair bit of the stuff thrown around here by a bunch of people could be found defamatory in some jurisdictions. To be honest I'd be applauding loudly if the lynch mob members who throw away the most basic principles of a decent legal system lost their all for the foul insults they have so viciously thrown around.

Personally I think WS should institute a Code of Conduct for competitors, like other sports do, and people like you and others who have used such ridiculously poor evidence to imply that ILCA officials are being corrupt should be investigated under the Code and perhaps thrown out of the sport. Abusing officials is not allowed in most sports and it shouldn't be allowed in sailing.

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30 minutes ago, Curious said:

Personally I think WS should institute a Code of Conduct for competitors, like other sports do, and people like you and others who have used such ridiculously poor evidence to imply that ILCA officials are being corrupt should be investigated under the Code and perhaps thrown out of the sport. Abusing officials is not allowed in most sports and it shouldn't be allowed in sailing.

There is a code of conduct for sailing, in my view World Sailing rules are poorly applied. This same point was made by the independent chair of the World Sailing governance commission. 

Abusing officials is not allowed in sailing.

Since the statement by Rastegar was witnessed by two World Sailing officials (and others), my decision to make it public was because in part, I was not confident anything was going to be done about it. In my view, Rastegar had nothing to gain by making the statement, in fact, the opposite is true.

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9 hours ago, Curious said:

Where did ILCA admit it?

LP released a notice from ILCA to PSA which contains allegations, but  to me it looked like what we call a "show cause" notice. It detailed allegations so that PSA could respond, NOT because those allegations had been proven. That's standard procedure in many regulatory/enforcement environments. It is also significant that PSA did not admit those allegations, and I believe that Aroy has also denied that the events occurred. If I remember rightly, there were statements that there were "options" in the layout schedule and it may be that PSA simply chose a different option or a different reasonable definition of the schedule.

The fact that LP only published part of the documents is itself possibly significant. If they have actual damning information and are happy to release information that is normally confidential then why not release the smoking gun?

I'm probably in the worst position of anyone here if PSA did build faster boats since I have a mint older one and I'm returning to serious racing against world champs with newer PSA boats. Oddly enough it seems that I'm faster when stiffness should count.*

PSA also alleged that LPE changed a layup before PSA did, but for some reason that allegation has been ignored by people who accept LP's allegation.

* I didn't buy a newer one because as I noted here, I'm unhappy with the released statements by ILCA and PSA about the new rigs. That should indicate that I'm not an ILCA/PSA poodle.

 

Sorry, don't think I did and certainly didn't mean to imply you were anyone's poodle.  And my choice of words was poor.  On the PSA boats, after reading LPE's claims, the ILCA letter to WS, and Andy's comments I concluded that those PSA boats in question were manufactured "differently" than most Lasers.  I suspect that also means "out of compliance with the construction manual at the time." I gathered that ILCA found some way to get comfortable that these boats were close enough that it didn't matter and let it ride.  I would not doubt other builders including LPE over time has produced similar "different" or "out of compliance" boats.  Where I maybe disagree with ILCA is that a bedrock principal of the class - SMOD (a regional SMOD for those nitpickers) is being abandoned.  Abandoned for FRAND (even when it might not need to be), abandoned through inaction on manufacturer inspections which seem to have been few and far between, and inaction on different or non compliant boats (from any builder including those from PSA).  With full facts I may well agree w ILCA's logic but they ain't talking so...

Anyway this thread (not your comments Curious) seems to have descended into an odd combination of wild acquisitions and high school cliques so I am going to leave it to the idiots until we have some actual facts to consider.  As for the PSA boats, I doubt we will ever know the full truth.

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5 hours ago, Gantt said:

Last week, in front of witnesses Farzad Rastegar, in what was described as an angry outburst claimed to have made payments to Jeff Martin and Alexandra Behrens.

 

3 hours ago, Gantt said:

I am satisfied that the outburst occurred as I mentioned above. I doubt Rastegar invented his claim, however, it remains a claim until corroborated.

I remember you from the last thread as someone dumber than shit and worse yet willing to lie repeatedly.  I never thought anyone would stoop so low and be so stupid to admit voting in a class ballot when they were not even a member of the class but yet there you were admitting to it and even proud of the fact.

And now when I think you cant get any lower, you make some baseless claim about a gentleman who was a class volunteer taking bribes; your acquisition made worse yet since that volunteer has since passed and so is not even around to defend himself.  You should be ashamed but based on your past behavior you will not be.  You should be sued for libel and slander but I fear an insanity defense would get you off.

You must live under a rock you piece of low life scum. 

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3 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

By saying that you doubt that Rastegar invented the (utterly unproven) allegation about the ILCA official and then referring to the WS Code you've implied the official breached it. You have no reasonable grounds for that implication.

Earlier I did not realise why people were insulting you so much; now I think it is apparent.

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On 5/25/2019 at 2:40 PM, Gantt said:

In my view, it goes beyond my writing style.

Nope.  It's your writing style.  And your content. 

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17 hours ago, tillerman said:

Making allegations in this forum - with absolutely no supporting information - that a respected member of the ILCA World Council is being improperly influenced financially by outside entities is very serious.

Even my lawnmower would not sink so low.

 

It's also actionable.  Be careful, folks.  

 

16 hours ago, tillerman said:

It may seem strange to Laser sailors in some parts of the world, but when a boat manufacturer is doing a good job of servicing buyers of their boats - even if only part of the world - it would be quite normal for a local class official to express support for the builder's position in a dispute of this nature. 

 

 

It may seem strange to Europeans, but when someone with a supposedly independent view tows a corporate party line to the point of repeating their words verbatim, it's quite normal for them to have some kind of agenda or hidden interest.

 

Of course, anyone accusing someone of having such interest or acting on it does so at their own peril.  

 

 

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8 hours ago, Gantt said:

 

Whether BlatantEcho's comment is correct or not, is not really the issue. 

 

Whether you support an allegation or not, if it is false than you are generally liable for defamation anyway.  

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Sorry, don't think I did and certainly didn't mean to imply you were anyone's poodle.  And my choice of words was poor.  On the PSA boats, after reading LPE's claims, the ILCA letter to WS, and Andy's comments I concluded that those PSA boats in question were manufactured "differently" than most Lasers.  I suspect that also means "out of compliance with the construction manual at the time." I gathered that ILCA found some way to get comfortable that these boats were close enough that it didn't matter and let it ride.  I would not doubt other builders including LPE over time has produced similar "different" or "out of compliance" boats.  Where I maybe disagree with ILCA is that a bedrock principal of the class - SMOD (a regional SMOD for those nitpickers) is being abandoned.  Abandoned for FRAND (even when it might not need to be), abandoned through inaction on manufacturer inspections which seem to have been few and far between, and inaction on different or non compliant boats (from any builder including those from PSA).  With full facts I may well agree w ILCA's logic but they ain't talking so...

Anyway this thread (not your comments Curious) seems to have descended into an odd combination of wild acquisitions and high school cliques so I am going to leave it to the idiots until we have some actual facts to consider.  As for the PSA boats, I doubt we will ever know the full truth.

Your interpretation about the construction could be right, but surely the main point is that we don't know. Maybe there have always been differences, as implied by the use of the term "option" to refer to parts of the LCM. The long list of problematic Lasers from US manufacturers shows that there's always been variations.  It may be a matter of commercial confidence; Andy mentioned a duty of confidentiality or something similar.

No one has been found to be guilty so they should be treated as innocent. It's a pretty good rule in criminal law and it's a good one in sailing too.

PS- Nope, you didn't imply was a poodle; I just brought it up because I have been defending one side.

 

 

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36 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

It may seem strange to Europeans, but when someone with a supposedly independent view tows a corporate party line to the point of repeating their words verbatim, it's quite normal for them to have some kind of agenda or hidden interest.

OTOH Occams razor suggests that if someone has a obvious and reasonable legitimate interest in toeing a corporate party line (which I submit is the case here) then there is little point in looking for anything hidden. That's the trouble with the conspiracy theorist mindset. Too often they are so busy looking for molehills that they don't notice they're on a mountain.

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3 minutes ago, JimC said:

OTOH Occams razor suggests that if someone has a obvious and reasonable legitimate interest in toeing a corporate party line (which I submit is the case here) then there is little point in looking for anything hidden. 

Maybe, but ignoring undisclosed interests and pretending they don't negatively effect outcomes is a great way to ensure that some of the rampantly increasing corruption that's been reported lately in sport finds its way into ours.

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And if there is no undisclosed interest? Hard to prove a negative. I really can't be bothered to look through all the court stuff again, but I have a vague feeling that the builder was required to to pay expenses to ILCA officials conducting inspections.  Would you like to guarantee that 'payments' to ILCA folk were not perfectly legitimate and contractually required on those lines?

What makes this sort of s*** slinging particularly reprehensible is that the honest volunteer will almost certainly not have the funds to take on their accuser in court.

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That’s the end of this thread then. Maybe that’s no bad thing because I cantt understand recent posts.

 

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

What the hell is the purpose of the last few dozen posts above ?

why would any of the described bullshit matter??

hiw does  ny one of the above posts cause more boats to benunder more sailors either this Wednesday night or ever? 

Suggestion:

if your post will not at least theoretically  cause more people to come play with us, don’t click the “submit reply” button. 

 

 

If we all just sit back and let the officials get insulted, then why should they step up and run races any Wednesday night?

If we do not do our bit to defend the class officials, why should the class officials do so much more for us?

If we stand by and see them slandered, why should they not stand by and watch the class collapse?

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21 hours ago, Curious said:

Your interpretation about the construction could be right, but surely the main point is that we don't know. Maybe there have always been differences, as implied by the use of the term "option" to refer to parts of the LCM. The long list of problematic Lasers from US manufacturers shows that there's always been variations.  It may be a matter of commercial confidence; Andy mentioned a duty of confidentiality or something similar.

No one has been found to be guilty so they should be treated as innocent. It's a pretty good rule in criminal law and it's a good one in sailing too.

PS- Nope, you didn't imply was a poodle; I just brought it up because I have been defending one side.

 

 

We maybe have to agree to disagree on this one.  For sure we don't know with absolute certainty.  I am with you there.  You start to lose me with the guilt and innocent language... there is no criminal or civil action now (or ever) about this aspect of mess.  Just some boats.  That are likely different.  And blessed.  By my reading of those 3 documents. YMMV; I get that.  I certainly don't see it as the end of the world either way.  Indeed, the blessing may well have been well intentioned.  I can be a fan and supporter but have questions about this and even disagree without thinking them liable, guilty or even slightly bad.  Anyway enough smoke there for me to believe based on what I have that there was a bit of a fire. But I imagine there was lots of fires the good folks at ILCA had to deal with given the players they had to deal with.  

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4 hours ago, Curious said:

If we all just sit back and let the officials get insulted, then why should they step up and run races any Wednesday night?

If we do not do our bit to defend the class officials, why should the class officials do so much more for us?

If we stand by and see them slandered, why should they not stand by and watch the class collapse?

This!  Plus one.

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

What the hell is the purpose of the last few dozen posts above ?

why would any of the described bullshit matter??

hiw does  ny one of the above posts cause more boats to benunder more sailors either this Wednesday night or ever? 

Suggestion:

if your post will not at least theoretically  cause more people to come play with us, don’t click the “submit reply” button. 

 

5 hours ago, Curious said:

If we all just sit back and let the officials get insulted, then why should they step up and run races any Wednesday night?

If we do not do our bit to defend the class officials, why should the class officials do so much more for us?

If we stand by and see them slandered, why should they not stand by and watch the class collapse?

Not that he can't speak for himself, but there is no way Gouv's comments were intended to dismiss "the greater good".  Like many, he gets tired and bored with topics that drag on and on with people with varied (or no) legal expertise jumping on the stand to argue points that are based on limited or no fact. There is a pattern:

1)  Gannt says something controversial/incorrect/of questionable merit

2) The pile on commences

3)  Gannt tries futilely to defend himself - oft times bobbing and weaving and altering his comments 

4) The conversation goes all over the place, generally veering well off topic

5) Gouv gets pissed and sends a passionate missive trying to get the discussion back to sailing. (You can measure his passion-o-meter level by his typing words like "benunder")

Next up: a couple songs to add a bit of levity!

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Gouv - your song choices are as bad as your sailing is good.  The topic is volunteers.  So I present the one and only Grace Slick....

 

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personally I think Gantt is a high level troll. very sophisticated tactics being employed, and to great success. it's actually quite impressive

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 @Gouvernail:  Wess may have you beat on the psychedelic music, but you are at the pointy end of the psychedelic dream fleet!  "Drink" dispensers, eh?  Hmnnn.

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12 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

personally I think Gantt is a high level troll. very sophisticated tactics being employed, and to great success. it's actually quite impressive

No one can brutalize written english like he can.  Must be an uber-sophisticated troll!  

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30 minutes ago, bacq2bacq said:

 @Gouvernail:  Wess may have you beat on the psychedelic music, but you are at the pointy end of the psychedelic dream fleet!  "Drink" dispensers, eh?  Hmnnn.

All quiet on both the eastern and western fronts.  ILCA and LPE's news feeds are all about.... SAILING LASERS (!!)... go figure.  Well in that spirit lets return to sailing, and drink dispensers!?

  * Question: Can a Laser be improved by the addition of a cup holder and is it still a class legal boat (and no; water bottles and mast holder don't count)?

Asking because rumor has it one Tuesday evening an SSA Laser sailor glided up to the Pussers dock and got a Painkiller or two (level 4) before sailing out to the course and start line for TESOD racing.  One cup in hand and the other in a centerline cockpit cup holder, the first cup was emptied during the starting sequence and dropped in the RC boat while executing a boat end start (rumor has it the pin was favored) - but no roll tacks or gybes during the race.  This could not have been me as my Laser has no drink holder but I have always thought it a wonderful idea.  And I do love Painkillers...

 

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

All quiet on both the eastern and western fronts.  ILCA and LPE's news feeds are all about.... SAILING LASERS (!!)... go figure.  Well in that spirit lets return to sailing, and drink dispensers!?

  * Question: Can a Laser be improved by the addition of a cup holder and is it still a class legal boat (and no; water bottles and mast holder don't count)?

Asking because rumor has it one Tuesday evening an SSA Laser sailor glided up to the Pussers dock and got a Painkiller or two (level 4) before sailing out to the course and start line for TESOD racing.  One cup in hand and the other in a centerline cockpit cup holder, the first cup was emptied during the starting sequence and dropped in the RC boat while executing a boat end start (rumor has it the pin was favored) - but no roll tacks or gybes during the race.  This could not have been me as my Laser has no drink holder but I have always thought it a wonderful idea.  And I do love Painkillers...

 

 

Mini bottles of scotch fit well in my life jacket pocket.  Not a great summer drink but wonderful when sailing in after some cold weather racing.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

 

  * Question: Can a Laser be improved by the addition of a cup holder and is it still a class legal boat (and no; water bottles and mast holder don't count)?

 


A Laser can be improved in many ways, including by the addition of a cup holder. When you're done this is what it will look like.

 

View-of-the-RS-Aero-Olympic-one-handed-discipline-from-2024-750x445.jpg

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Not a great summer drink

not with that kind of attitude!

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:


A Laser can be improved in many ways, including by the addition of a cup holder. When you're done this is what it will look like.

 

View-of-the-RS-Aero-Olympic-one-handed-discipline-from-2024-750x445.jpg

huh. interesting. what kind of boat is that?

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2 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

huh. interesting. what kind of boat is that?

 A slow one

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1 minute ago, dgmckim said:

huh. interesting. what kind of boat is that?

I have no idea. It's certainly not an RS Aero - even though it has some similarities. This is an RS Aero.

yysw231799.jpg
 

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

huh. interesting. what kind of boat is that?

Well it has to be obsolete with the white sail and all....

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45 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Well it has to be obsolete with the white sail and all....

True.

Although how it's funny how the Evaluation Panel for the One Person Dinghy in the 2024 Olympics, rated the boat with the see-through sail and the boat with blue or grey sails lower than the two boats with white sails. Go figure.

Screen Shot 2019-05-29 at 4.55.33 PM.png

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

Gouv - your song choices are as bad as your sailing is good.  The topic is volunteers.  So I present the one and only Grace Slick....

 

What? You dissed Gouv's excellent choice of Nick Cave? And to think I used to respect you!   :-p  

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4 hours ago, dgmckim said:

huh. interesting. what kind of boat is that?

It's an early Aero according to Google image searches.

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3 minutes ago, Curious said:

It's an early Aero according to Google image searches.

Thank you for clarifying, however, it was not a serious question... I was poking some fun at Tillerman for promoting the aero

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So an aero that is not quite the same as all the class legal aeros eh?? Methinks we need a special counsel asap !!

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19 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

Thank you for clarifying, however, it was not a serious question... I was poking some fun at Tillerman for promoting the aero

D'oh. Sorry, I was a cheapass so I bought a computer without an irony meter, and I was still in shock at the dissing of Nick Cave. In my defence, when there seemed to be a question about the design I wondered if it could be RS' newer and smaller Neo. 

RS Neo'

The Neo looks nice, and the Aero is nice, but it's sort of amusing that shortly after promoting the incredible advantages of the Aero's light weight, RS brought out a boat that is 2'6" shorter than a Laser and 14lb heavier. It seems that a heavier boat is a terrible boat if it's sold by the opposition, but a fine thing if it's sold by you.   :-p

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5 minutes ago, Essex said:

So an aero that is not quite the same as all the class legal aeros eh?? Methinks we need a special counsel asap !!

Why bother with a special counsel when we have so many lynch mobs ready to fire into action?   

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

* Question: Can a Laser be improved by the addition of a cup holder and is it still a class legal boat (and no; water bottles and mast holder don't count)?

Wess, with your experience, I would have thought you would better appreciate the important second function of the Laser mast/coffee-cup-holder. 

Mine broke.  It's doughnut was stale:
 

IMAG1910[1].jpg

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24 minutes ago, Curious said:

D'oh. Sorry, I was a cheapass so I bought a computer without an irony meter, and I was still in shock at the dissing of Nick Cave. In my defence, when there seemed to be a question about the design I wondered if it could be RS' newer and smaller Neo. 

RS Neo'

The Neo looks nice, and the Aero is nice, but it's sort of amusing that shortly after promoting the incredible advantages of the Aero's light weight, RS brought out a boat that is 2'6" shorter than a Laser and 14lb heavier. It seems that a heavier boat is a terrible boat if it's sold by the opposition, but a fine thing if it's sold by you.   :-p

I agree. Who would buy a boat heavier than the Laser? What were they thinking?

 

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7 hours ago, dgmckim said:

huh. interesting. what kind of boat is that?

Aero knock off made in China. A few grand cheaper. The class is doomed. Just like the Laser...

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7 hours ago, tillerman said:


A Laser can be improved in many ways, including by the addition of a cup holder. When you're done this is what it will look like.

 

View-of-the-RS-Aero-Olympic-one-handed-discipline-from-2024-750x445.jpg


To clear up any confusion, this appears to be a photo of a pre-production prototype RS Aero.

No grab-rails yet. No RS Aero graphics yet. Vang and other control lines rigged differently from first production boats.

A version of the photo appeared in the first post in the rs aero thread on DA on February 28 2014.

First reply was "so another singlehanded hiker to join the ranks for a half dozen other RS boats, the Hoot, the DS, the MxNext."
 

 

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Not making any comment, other than Europe Laser Sailors appear to be unhappy, on the content of EurILCA latter attached, just passing on for info. 

04A6A0AD-D5FA-4064-9107-37A80C4FC521.jpeg

F4F8AD16-8E51-4CB3-9454-2FC06254B7DE.jpeg

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3 hours ago, GBR2083 said:

Not making any comment, other than Europe Laser Sailors appear to be unhappy, on the content of EurILCA latter attached, just passing on for info. 

04A6A0AD-D5FA-4064-9107-37A80C4FC521.jpeg

F4F8AD16-8E51-4CB3-9454-2FC06254B7DE.jpeg

Well that appears to seal the deal... or rather the lack thereof.  The word entrenched comes to mind.

@tillerman - You may get your Aero Olympic dream sooner rather than later.  Oddly enough I find myself hoping you do.  How many pages back did Steve Clark call this?  The man is a prophet!

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3 hours ago, GBR2083 said:

Not making any comment, other than Europe Laser Sailors appear to be unhappy, on the content of EurILCA latter attached, just passing on for info. 

Accompanying the release is this comment, from Beat Heinz on his Facebook page:

Quote

Dear Friends on Facebook, last night EurILCA has released a circular to all our districts giving an update on the current situation with Laser and our European builder Laser Performance. The EurILCA has serious doubts that current ILCA management is really handling this all for the best of the class and therefore is requesting change. I also heard that our Italian friends will launch an individual petition steering the same direction. If you agree with you that there is urgent change required please share this on your social media accounts and also support the petition. Thanks, Beat

If the "The EurILCA has serious doubts that current ILCA management is really handling this all for the best of the class and therefore is requesting change" as Beat Heinz says above, then isn't it reasonable to question whether or not EurILCA is representing sailors or LPE/dealerships? EurILCA is advocating the similar changes to what LPE wants. World Sailing (Kim Anderson) is advocating making changes, yet EurILCA isn't calling for World Sailing to change their executive. To accept no change is to accept that North America will continue to have bad service.

---

The point of declaring conflicts of interest, is to provide transparency and to leave no room for back room deals. Officials aren't always compromised by having a relationship with a financial interest, however not having transparency is a recipe for both perceived and actual corruption.

In addition to Farzard Rastegar's alleged impropriety, I should mention that I have more than one source documenting more than one event; and I've kept records.

In my view Tracy Usher and Eric Faust have not been compromised, and have the best interests of Laser / ILCA dinghy racing at heart.

Governance is important.

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45 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well that appears to seal the deal... or rather the lack thereof.  The word entrenched comes to mind.

@tillerman - You may get your Aero Olympic dream sooner rather than later.  Oddly enough I find myself hoping you do.  How many pages back did Steve Clark call this?  The man is a prophet!

Indeed.

And just when I had got used to the idea of the Aero having the glory of being the boat that won the Trials.. but escaped the all the downsides of actually being in the Olympics.
 

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12 hours ago, Curious said:

D'oh. Sorry, I was a cheapass so I bought a computer without an irony meter, and I was still in shock at the dissing of Nick Cave. In my defence, when there seemed to be a question about the design I wondered if it could be RS' newer and smaller Neo. 

RS Neo'

The Neo looks nice, and the Aero is nice, but it's sort of amusing that shortly after promoting the incredible advantages of the Aero's light weight, RS brought out a boat that is 2'6" shorter than a Laser and 14lb heavier. It seems that a heavier boat is a terrible boat if it's sold by the opposition, but a fine thing if it's sold by you.   :-p

The neo is a sailing school boat where they are looking for indestructible. The Aero is for people that have stopped repeatedly hitting hard objects and maybe would like to own the boat. Two very different markets so in the instance of a boat for elite sailors such as Olympians then it would appear having a heavy boat is not that great a quality to be admired. 

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22 minutes ago, bdu98252 said:

The neo is a sailing school boat where they are looking for indestructible. The Aero is for people that have stopped repeatedly hitting hard objects and maybe would like to own the boat. Two very different markets so in the instance of a boat for elite sailors such as Olympians then it would appear having a heavy boat is not that great a quality to be admired. 

"The Aero is for people that have stopped repeatedly hitting hard objects."  I like it!

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Oh yee of little faith.... I believe ILCA is moving forward in the interest of the class.  There is a plan and certain pieces have to fall into place.  I believe a big one is for LPE to either boost production and guarantee North American new boat and gear availability or preferably allow a new NA based builder to come on line.  I believe this is the start of the negotiations.  Everything else is a non-starter.  We'll see... In the mean time I had a hell of a time racing a VX One in 15-20 last night over 6 mile course on 50 minutes!

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1 hour ago, bdu98252 said:

The neo is a sailing school boat where they are looking for indestructible. The Aero is for people that have stopped repeatedly hitting hard objects and maybe would like to own the boat. Two very different markets so in the instance of a boat for elite sailors such as Olympians then it would appear having a heavy boat is not that great a quality to be admired. 

Yes, I'm well aware of that but it's not just about durability and performance, but the fact that RS talked up the logistics and design advantages of light weight by saying, for example, that the Aero was "exceptionally user friendly on shore" because of its light weight.  If exceptionally light weight creates an "exceptionally user friendly" experience, then logically surely an unusually heavy boat (by modern standards) must be an "exceptionally user UNfriendly" on shore, no? :P  I like RS as a company and many of their boats are very good but seriously, you must admit that going on and on about good light boats are, and then selling a bunch of quite heavy boats, is rather amusing.

The 4000, 2000, Neo etc seem like good boats but to throw flak at the 57kg Laser for being "too heavy" and then promote 60-68kg 12 footers and a 130kg 14 footer IS an example of double standards, surely. Even the 400 and 500 are bloody leadmines by some standards, so if the Laser is too heavy then so is most of RS' own range. 

I'm not quite sure, by the way, that the Finn fans will admit that there's anything wrong with having a heavy dinghy in the Games.

 

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1 hour ago, Gantt said:

Accompanying the release is this comment, from Beat Heinz on his Facebook page:

If the "The EurILCA has serious doubts that current ILCA management is really handling this all for the best of the class and therefore is requesting change" as Beat Heinz says above, then isn't it reasonable to question whether or not EurILCA is representing sailors or LPE/dealerships? EurILCA is advocating the similar changes to what LPE wants. World Sailing (Kim Anderson) is advocating making changes, yet EurILCA isn't calling for World Sailing to change their executive. To accept no change is to accept that North America will continue to have bad service.

---

The point of declaring conflicts of interest, is to provide transparency and to leave no room for back room deals. Officials aren't always compromised by having a relationship with a financial interest, however not having transparency is a recipe for both perceived and actual corruption.

In addition to Farzard Rastegar's alleged impropriety, I should mention that I have more than one source documenting more than one event; and I've kept records.

In my view Tracy Usher and Eric Faust have not been compromised, and have the best interests of Laser / ILCA dinghy racing at heart.

Governance is important.

 There's an implicit assumption that the interests of sailors and LPE/dealerships are not aligned; within Europe, that's not obviously the case.

  Whilst it's arguably in the European sailors' interest to have a strong presence in the Americas, it's pretty clearly not in the interests of the EUrilca membership to wreck their own supply chain. The size of the Eurilca membership gives them significant influence and it would be remiss of them not to use that.

 I note with interest that they advocate promoting the 4.7 and not the "new rigs"... I'm not convinced about that. The 4.7 works passably well in Europe for youths,  where decent breeze is reasonably common, but I can see why it wouldn't be an attractive proposition where winds are predictably light.  It seems to me that Julian's Cx rigs are probably a better technical solution, though whether they are politically acceptable is a different story... It also seems to me that if the Laser wants to continue as the women's single-hander, the class will need to address the fact that the Radial is too powerful for the majority of the world's women (weakening one of the universality arguments)... and doing that will mean winning over LPE & the Europeans, who have little to gain from a rig switch... unless the alternative is a boat switch!

Cheers,

                 W.

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

The 4000, 2000, Neo etc seem like good boats but to throw flak at the 57kg Laser for being "too heavy" and then promote 60-68kg 12 footers and a 130kg 14 footer IS an example of double standards, surely. Even the 400 and 500 are bloody leadmines by some standards, so if the Laser is too heavy then so is most of RS' own range. 

You realize the Neo is a Quba hull repurposed and is made of plastic right?  It's designed for clubs and beach use, not for racing.

You're comparing a Ferrari to an F-150 because they both have four tires.

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6 hours ago, GBR2083 said:

Not making any comment, other than Europe Laser Sailors appear to be unhappy, on the content of EurILCA latter attached, just passing on for info. 

04A6A0AD-D5FA-4064-9107-37A80C4FC521.jpeg

F4F8AD16-8E51-4CB3-9454-2FC06254B7DE.jpeg

Does one think that perhaps the EurILCA people are the most ignorant people alive?  Maybe it is so?

Someone above was insinuating corruption on some level.  Gantt or someone. 
Can we check if these EurILCA guys are being paid directly by LP?  Seriously, reads like a Press Release from LaserPerformance themselves.

How the living f*** can they claim to represent the class when they side with the worst builder in the class' history?  
***SERIOUSLY***  This is INsane. 

 

Where is Gouv to set them straight?

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7 hours ago, GBR2083 said:

Not making any comment, other than Europe Laser Sailors appear to be unhappy, on the content of EurILCA latter attached, just passing on for info. 

04A6A0AD-D5FA-4064-9107-37A80C4FC521.jpeg

F4F8AD16-8E51-4CB3-9454-2FC06254B7DE.jpeg

What is the "solidarity programme" that the letter refers to? I had never heard that phrase before.

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How can the ILCA “assist the builders” with supply issues? LPE have made it pretty clear they don’t give a shit about supplying and generally supporting the class outside Europe. Their actions have spoken. There needs to be a builder in North America.

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52 minutes ago, bill4 said:

How can the ILCA “assist the builders” with supply issues? LPE have made it pretty clear they don’t give a shit about supplying and generally supporting the class outside Europe. Their actions have spoken. There needs to be a builder in North America.

Yea I had to laugh at that line too.  Apparently LPE never heard the expression "Physician heal thyself!"

Its going to be interesting to see if the EurILCA views are actually aligned with their class members or not. I still don't think the vote actually matters, but it will be telling as to if EU sailors really do feel LPE serves them well and is getting shafted.  That is kinda unbelievable from a US centric perspective but we have folks like @WGWarburton who we have no reason to doubt saying the view of EU sailors (not just the EurILCA leadership) is that way.  I really don't know what to think anymore.

If a vote is taken and fails it will be interesting to see what ILCA leadership does then.  Can't exactly put Humpty Dumpty back together again at that stage can you?

Feeling more and more like we might end up with 2 classes and boats - ILCA and Laser - and lots more litigation between all the parties, and then who/what actually ends up in the Olympics?  @tillerman likely has a new spring in his step and twinkle in his eye today... will he take up residence in a new country to seek an Olympic bid in his Aero?  Inquiring minds want to know!.

More seriously it would be so interesting to hear from Bill Crane now that he is gone.

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1 hour ago, WestCoast said:

 

You're comparing a Ferrari to an F-150 because they both have four tires.

easy now

maybe a GTI vs. a pontiac vibe

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1 minute ago, Gouvernail said:

Don’t hold your breath. Bill is still in a position where offering public comment would not be prudent. 

My impression is he would love to supply a ton of information and correct a whole lot of what he knows is inaccurate nonsense ( even in this very thread)  but his real life is still tethered a bit to his LP relationship and his future is better served by steering clear of the morass and going fishing. 

I hope he lands on his feet and finds a good use for his talents and knowledge. 

Completely agree it ain't gonna happen. Would be insightful if it did though.  Just tell us which way to vote Bill... though I am guessing he already did with his feet! ;)

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6 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Don’t hold your breath. Bill is still in a position where offering public comment would not be prudent. 

My impression is he would love to supply a ton of information and correct a whole lot of what he knows is inaccurate nonsense ( even in this very thread)  but his real life is still tethered a bit to his LP relationship and his future is better served by steering clear of the morass and going fishing. 

I hope he lands on his feet and finds a good use for his talents and knowledge. 

IIRC he still has a kid or kids in school and probably not looking for a long vacation.  Anyone need a boatbuilder?

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Being both a bigger market and the home of the builder, I'm guessing European dealers are more able to jump through LPE's hoops, maintain an inventory, and isolate class members from the issues we are seeing in the US.

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41 minutes ago, Wess said:

Feeling more and more like we might end up with 2 classes and boats - ILCA and Laser - and lots more litigation between all the parties, and then who/what actually ends up in the Olympics?  @tillerman likely has a new spring in his step and twinkle in his eye today... will he take up residence in a new country to seek an Olympic bid in his Aero?  Inquiring minds want to know!.

More seriously it would be so interesting to hear from Bill Crane now that he is gone.

If I have a spring in my step and a twinkle in my eye today it's because I'm looking forward to sailing my RS Aero at the regatta on Saturday at Massapoag YC - home of the first , the largest and the most fun RS Aero regattas in the north-east. We will have a bunch of new RS Aero owners  along with many old RS Aero friends. Will we set a new record for largest RS Aero regatta in the north-east? We will see.

As I wrote some months ago, I am in two minds as to whether having the RS Aero in the Olympics will be a good or a bad thing. And I am certainly not contemplating an Olympic bid from any country.

It would be interesting to hear from Bill Crane but I don't expect he will want to say anything substantive. However.... for what it's worth..... I posted this EurILCA letter on my blog's Facebook page this morning and Bill Crane was the first to "like" it. Read into that what you will!

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7 minutes ago, tillerman said:

If I have a spring in my step and a twinkle in my eye today it's because I'm looking forward to sailing my RS Aero at the regatta on Saturday at Massapoag YC - home of the first , the largest and the most fun RS Aero regattas in the north-east. We will have a bunch of new RS Aero owners  along with many old RS Aero friends. Will we set a new record for largest RS Aero regatta in the north-east? We will see.

As I wrote some months ago, I am in two minds as to whether having the RS Aero in the Olympics will be a good or a bad thing. And I am certainly not contemplating an Olympic bid from any country.

It would be interesting to hear from Bill Crane but I don't expect he will want to say anything substantive. However.... for what it's worth..... I posted this EurILCA letter on my blog's Facebook page this morning and Bill Crane was the first to "like" it. Read into that what you will!

Color me STUNNED!  You can decide for yourself about what...:ph34r:

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