Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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31 minutes ago, spankoka said:

He is hardly an Islamofascist, he is from a group that is persecuted in Iran. 

Damn. That certainly ruins the joke.

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2 hours ago, Wess said:

There is no logical reason I can think of that would have EU well supplied and US so poorly supplied (including high margin stuff from others where its just a pass through) other than exactly what you describe. Its the one part of this where I don't have any clue about the motivations because its simply not logical.  Everything else, love it or hate it I can at least understand the motivation.  The lack of US supply... of anything... same as Sunfish... no freaking clue.

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4201775/bruce-kirby-inc-v-laserperformance-europe-limited/?page=3

 

Maybe legal reasons? I must admid that I can´t completely understand this stuff...difficult to get for non natives, and with no knowledge on your legal system..

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On 6/18/2019 at 9:46 AM, Gouvernail said:

Just checked the local dealer. No new toys yet 

Local dealer! Hah! check amazon.

 

Or maybe Alibaba

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4 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

Local dealer! Hah! check amazon.

 

Or maybe Alibaba

just checked amazon. no new toys yet.

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1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

https://www.courtlistener.com/docket/4201775/bruce-kirby-inc-v-laserperformance-europe-limited/?page=3

 

Maybe legal reasons? I must admid that I can´t completely understand this stuff...difficult to get for non natives, and with no knowledge on your legal system..

Looks like Bill Barr redacted some of that stuff before posting it online.

However, clearly there is no collusion.

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It seems to me LP under started this whole mess by refusing to pay royalties. Everybody was pretty happy before that, weren’t they? 

Now everybody seems to be angling to own/control the Laser: IOC, WS, ILCA, LP. I find it shocking. 

The Laser trademark issue is only window dressing. The name doesn’t really matter to me except for nostalgia. I think Kirby will win. And I think he SHOULD win.

And in the end we will have what drew so many to the boat and the sport of sailing: a simple, inexpensive and exciting boat. Tight class rules not “pay to win”. 

The Laser became an Olympic class precisely because of its popularity. And as soon as this debacle is over we can get back to sailing. 

If our leadership can’t sort this out I’d suggest replace them not the boat. 

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6 hours ago, Wess said:

You canntt understand basic legal concepts?

What I can understand are the arguments of GSL:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.464.2.pdf

And I understand that a settlement conference is coming next. This still means that nothing is decided or trialed yet.  If the parties find a way to settle the case is over. If not the case is going on to be trialed.

If LP is afraid of losing the case they may have decided for themself, that it´s better to not sell any boats in NA, in order to not further violate the rights of GSL/Kirby in the USA cause this might cost a lot of money.

That´s how I would understand this with my limited knowledge of your legal system and language.

That´s correct?

 

 

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OMG that is funny. I canntt believe anyone would be so silly as to try to peddle that pile of poop here. Only the lawnmower is that “smart.” IPL wrote much truth about why your friends did and continue to lose big in the first round. I suggest you consult his writings. I don’t play with puppets so will not waste further time to answer you. I will give you a hint though.... check out his lawyer’s name. I mean you canntt make this stuff up.

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I had hoped someone else would have a go at answering you properly.

4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

And I understand that a settlement conference is coming next. This still means that nothing is decided or trialed yet.  If the parties find a way to settle the case is over. If not the case is going on to be trialed.

It depends which party you talk to. LP's position is that the contracts are not valid regarding Kirby's royalty (as it is documented in the case), while appear to be following other aspects of the same contracts - for example having ILCA perform an inspection in 2015. (ILCA perform the inspections as the agents of World Sailing as per the contract).

PSA is taking a wait and see approach. It doesn't really affect their main markets in Australian and New Zealand.

Kirby expressed a desire to retire, and sold the contracted designer rights to Global Sailing. (Global sailing has the same shareholders as PSA). I'm unclear what happened with this, however it would seem that the rights are now back with Kirby Inc.

With the case you cite, basically Kirby wants his royalties. According to the contracts, royalties apply no matter where LPE sell boats, and that includes Europe.

(From my experience of doing business in EU including Germany, there was a change about 10 years back regarding the sale of rights. I am fairly sure that will not affect rights which only exist because of contracts which were agreed to by non Germans outside of Germany: ie a different jurisdiction, even for boats sold within Germany.)

4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

If LP is afraid of losing the case they may have decided for themself, that it´s better to not sell any boats in NA, in order to not further violate the rights of GSL/Kirby in the USA cause this might cost a lot of money.

That´s how I would understand this with my limited knowledge of your legal system and language.

That´s correct?

I doubt that is LP's rationale. They still sell boats in North America, though getting them is problematic as discussed elsewhere. (A little side note - there are distribution issues in many areas that LP supplies outside of Europe. Also, inside of Europe, there is good service mostly where the main three suppliers are active. There are plenty of places in Europe where there are supply issues.)

All of this was thrown up-side-down in 2018 with World Sailing's new Olympic equipment policies which includes FRAND. It was ratified in March 2019, with a requirement that the Laser issues are in place by 1 August 2019. That's why things are moving faster right now.

So there are new agreements which were created, though it does not look likely that an agreement will be reached.

EurILCA are saying that there is a risk of further legal action. In my view using "ILCA" has a risk, because the "L" stands for Laser. The risk may not be about winning or losing any court battle - it may be the expense in time, money and brains to defend a more complex defense. (If it were up to me, I'd choose something completely different. Kirby had proposed "Torch". Maybe something different.)

The rift between the EurILCA executive committee and the ILCA World Council is a complication.

---

This was written from memory, and fast (I'm rushed). I'd welcome anyone to provide any additions or corrections to the above. I hope this is helpful. (I doubt I will get 49 likes for my efforts. ;) )

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4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

What I can understand are the arguments of GSL:

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.464.2.pdf

And I understand that a settlement conference is coming next. This still means that nothing is decided or trialed yet.  If the parties find a way to settle the case is over. If not the case is going on to be trialed.

If LP is afraid of losing the case they may have decided for themself, that it´s better to not sell any boats in NA, in order to not further violate the rights of GSL/Kirby in the USA cause this might cost a lot of money.

That´s how I would understand this with my limited knowledge of your legal system and language.

That´s correct?

 

 

What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 

LOL the real question is where do all the legal fees get paid to. Because I would be willing to bet that the lawyers have already made more money than Kirby sold out for. And after this coming second round.... the lawyers will be rich enough to own what is little is left of all the Laser manufacturing/selling businesses WW.

WW

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18 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL the real question is where do all the legal fees get paid to. Because I would be willing to bet that the lawyers have already made more money than Kirby sold out for. And after this coming second round.... the lawyers will be rich enough to own what is little is left of all the Laser manufacturing/selling businesses WW.

WW

And who is really paying the lawyer bills? I hope "ET AL" has deep pockets.

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27 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 

What I understood - with my very basic school english - is that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing. At one point the judge changed his mind, and now GSL is plaintiff in the same old, still ongoing lawcase. The rights are still somewhere, they don't got lost somewhere in the southern ocean.

I have no idea on the US legal system, but would think that LP not only has to pay the license fees, but also a fine, 2x the license fees and all costs of the lawcase if they lose. Maybe even all the money they earned by producing boats without a license plus a fine plus all lawyer and court costs. It also would not mean that GSL is obliged to sign a new contract with LPE. The contract was cancelled for good reasons. 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

What I don't understand is that, assuming LP loses this case, and they have to start paying royalties again, who would they go to?

I know that, many years ago, Kirby did sell the rights to the royalty stream to Global Sailing and then there was some sort of complicated arrangement to transfer something back to Kirby. But at one point after that it was ruled that Kirby had no standing to sue LP for royalties because he had transferred the rights to GS.
 

I would imagine that what Kirby is angling for is a completely new agreement that supersedes the old agreements.  One agreed to by ILCA, WS, and all the various FRAND builders and license holders which pays him royalties.

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9 minutes ago, torrid said:

I would imagine that what Kirby is angling for is a completely new agreement that supersedes the old agreements.  One agreed to by ILCA, WS, and all the various FRAND builders and license holders which pays him royalties.

Would he then be able to sell his rights to these royalties to Global Sailing (like he did before?)

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1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

I have no idea on the US legal system, but would think that LP not only has to pay the license fees, but also a fine, 2x the license fees and all costs of the lawcase if they lose. Maybe even all the money they earned by producing boats without a license plus a fine plus all lawyer and court costs. It also would not mean that GSL is obliged to sign a new contract with LPE. The contract was cancelled for good reasons. 

Wow! I have no idea about UK or US bankruptcy law or of LP's finances or company structure, but I would think that would drive LP into bankruptcy.

Is that what GSL wants? Are they trying to destroy LP?

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Wow! I have no idea about UK or US bankruptcy law or of LP's finances or company structure, but I would think that would drive LP into bankruptcy.

Is that what GSL wants? Are they trying to destroy LP?

I think LPE started this by not paying royalties. It's more like commercial suicide

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There appears to be precious little of LPE left according to the latest public statement. No employees, very much reduced turnover. The trademarks and maybe even all the financial action seem to be elsewhere amongst Rastegar's many companies. I doubt it would be a major deal if LPE were wound up.

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

There appears to be precious little of LPE left according to the latest public statement. No employees, very much reduced turnover. The trademarks and maybe even all the financial action seem to be elsewhere amongst Rastegar's many companies. I doubt it would be a major deal if LPE were wound up.

Sounds like a plan. When will it be officially announced?

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

There appears to be precious little of LPE left according to the latest public statement. No employees, very much reduced turnover

Where did you find that info?

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1 hour ago, JimC said:

There appears to be precious little of LPE left according to the latest public statement. No employees, very much reduced turnover. The trademarks and maybe even all the financial action seem to be elsewhere amongst Rastegar's many companies. I doubt it would be a major deal if LPE were wound up.

Maybe no employees for LPE proper, but they also could be on the books of one of his different companies.  I know the actual factory where the hulls were constructed was a completely separate entity.

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12 minutes ago, torrid said:

Maybe no employees for LPE proper, but they also could be on the books of one of his different companies.  I know the actual factory where the hulls were constructed was a completely separate entity.

They could also all be hired as independent contractors, and not employees of LPE.

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4 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

They could also all be hired as independent contractors, and not employees of LPE.

Whatever the case it does appear Rasty is pretty competent at making a dollar.  Clearly the Laser is in the profit category.  Who would put up such a fight otherwise?

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4 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

They could also all be hired as independent contractors, and not employees of LPE.

That would be against the law, at least in germany, so I think this is could be EU wide law that might also apply to the UK. But somewhere they said, that they have a production in China.....

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15 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

They could also all be hired as independent contractors, and not employees of LPE.

This is all old ground -  the Applying a Blow Torch thread has dozens of entries. Here is a good place for you to dive into the financials:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00922893/filing-history

Note once their turnover got below 5million (I think), they were not required to report turnover any longer.

Another source:

https://uk.globaldatabase.com/company/laserperformance-europe-limited

 

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8 minutes ago, bill4 said:

This is all old ground -  the Applying a Blow Torch thread has dozens of entries. Here is a good place for you to dive into the financials:

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/00922893/filing-history

Note once their turnover got below 5million (I think), they were not required to report turnover any longer.

Another source:

https://uk.globaldatabase.com/company/laserperformance-europe-limited

Most is old, granted. Some has been given new life since March 15, 2019 with the new action by Kirby Inc et al against LPE et al.

https://www.courtlistener.com/recap/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988/gov.uscourts.ctd.99988.464.2.pdf

It's the "et al" which is of equal interest to me. A number of employees work/ed on both LP and Maclaren, for example.

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18 hours ago, dgmckim said:

just checked amazon. no new toys yet.

checked Alibaba. You can buy a "Laser" in Minimum Unit order of 3....

 

Probably doesn't have the plate....

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Whatever the case it does appear Rasty is pretty competent at making a dollar.  Clearly the Laser is in the profit category.  Who would put up such a fight otherwise?

And I think there are many sailors here, despite all that has transpired, who would like to let him make an honest buck off them.

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23 minutes ago, torrid said:

And I think there are many sailors here, despite all that has transpired, who would like to let him make an honest buck off them.

Whatever keep the supply chain going and boats on the water....

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34 minutes ago, torrid said:

And I think there are many sailors here, despite all that has transpired, who would like to let him make an honest buck off them.

Agreed. Including me.

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I have seen that LP has removed their infos on what they think Frand is. Maybe not completely in line with ILCA definitions of Frand, but interesting to read.

Contrary to what I would have expected they seem to have nothing against private import of boats from JPN or AUS, so why don´t you organize a container full of boats from JPN or AUS?

 

I made some screenshots just for reference:

1.pdf

2.pdf

3.pdf

4.pdf

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23 hours ago, bill4 said:

I wonder if anybody has looked into logistics and costs to get boats from Australia or Japan? 

There have been a number of Australian boats going in to NA for a few years now. I'm sure you can contact any Australian dealer and they would have experience sending boats there - however the trademark issue still remains. 

22 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Maybe legal reasons? I must admid that I can´t completely understand this stuff...difficult to get for non natives, and with no knowledge on your legal system..

Perhaps the economics of supplying NA simply don't make sense? As it is, NA has what, half of the number of Laser sailors/ILCA members as Europe do? In addition, LPE would have to ship boats from across the Atlantic, and then distribute them across NA. I'm not fully up to date with the Laser scene in NA, but it seems that there are a large number of small-medium sized dealers spread out throughout the continent. The only economic way to ship Lasers across the Atlantic is in container loads, and I can't imagine there are too many dealers in NA willing to pay in advance for a number of boats to only service a small market. 

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48 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The Laser game needs a well funded, enthusiastic builder, who works tirelessly to create great product and put it in the hands of sailors. The game also needs to have a Class association that works tirelessly to gather information about events, organize major events, and disseminate information about how to get involved in the racing game.

Let’s have some fun and pretend this all happens. What kind of growth in the Laser class in North America would you see taking place over the next 5 years?

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4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Contrary to what I would have expected they seem to have nothing against private import of boats from JPN or AUS, so why don´t you organize a container full of boats from JPN or AUS?

LaserPerfomance seem to be saying a lot.

This, from 2015:

Quote

Says LaserPerformance: “We will continue to take any and all legal action against any entity who is illegally and systematically importing PSA, and other, manufactured boats and parts into our trademark territories that include Europe, North America, South America, Africa and most of Asia.”

(Source = https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2015/02/01/laserperformance-wins-laser-trademark-case/)

---

The above video shows the gulf between ILCA and EurILCA. Most people here on this forum are better informed the European sailors, with obvious errors made.

Who has been misinforming the Europeans? For what possible reason?

The misinformation needs to be dealt with.

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2 hours ago, CenterboardBrake said:

Just seen on the EurILCA facebook page: 

...

I've got to give props to the ILCA for facing the hostile crowd there. I'm left wondering how all the euro folks will react if the vote fails and they let the Olympic selection slip through their fingers...  I'd guess they'll still blame the ILCA

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4 hours ago, BruceH-NZ said:

The above video shows the gulf between ILCA and EurILCA. Most people here on this forum are better informed the European sailors, with obvious errors made.

Who has been misinforming the Europeans? For what possible reason?

The misinformation needs to be dealt with

It's amazing how determined the Europeans are to drag down the leadership of ILCA and how much they think they've been misrepresented. However, the one thing that I didn't hear throughout that video was exactly how they think they have been misrepresented by the ILCA leadership. Everyone present agreed that keeping the Laser in the Olympics should be a priority of the class, but nobody said what they would do differently about maintaining Olympic status. The only suggestion I heard was to continue trying to negotiate with LP and to not provoke them through changing the name, but surely at this point they need to realise that trying to reach an agreement with LP is impossible given LP's history with ILCA. 

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50 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

It's amazing how determined the Europeans are to drag down the leadership of ILCA and how much they think they've been misrepresented. However, the one thing that I didn't hear throughout that video was exactly how they think they have been misrepresented by the ILCA leadership. Everyone present agreed that keeping the Laser in the Olympics should be a priority of the class, but nobody said what they would do differently about maintaining Olympic status. The only suggestion I heard was to continue trying to negotiate with LP and to not provoke them through changing the name, but surely at this point they need to realise that trying to reach an agreement with LP is impossible given LP's history with ILCA. 

One thing is very true. That EurILCA were instrumental in getting LP back to the table; initially with a request to release more plaques.

I agree that some Europeans were keen to drag down the leadership. However it is not all Europeans. Only around 600 signed the petition which called for the resignation of Tracy and Eric, referenced in the meeting. Whereas 9000 or so called for the Laser to be retained in the Olympics.

Tracy and Eric represent the majority viewpoint of the ILCA World Council.

2 hours ago, JMP said:

I've got to give props to the ILCA for facing the hostile crowd there. I'm left wondering how all the euro folks will react if the vote fails and they let the Olympic selection slip through their fingers...  I'd guess they'll still blame the ILCA

That is what some commercial interests are quite literally banking on. 

There was some discussion about the differences between the ILCA World Council and the Sunfish executive council. You can see here that there is significant differences, with some Laser sailors quite happy to represent the LP perspective, in fact literally say that in the meeting.

This is because behind the scenes there has been a long campaign by LP in Europe to achieve that support.

However it is a mistake to think that all of Europe supports LP. 

Additionally there is a conflating of democratic process with other issues; in countries like mine which have excellent democracy, proportional representation this is a hot subject. Improving democratic processes is definitely separate to keeping the Laser in the Olympics.

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6 hours ago, JMP said:

I've got to give props to the ILCA for facing the hostile crowd there. I'm left wondering how all the euro folks will react if the vote fails and they let the Olympic selection slip through their fingers...  I'd guess they'll still blame the ILCA

I think Charles Campion from the UK summed up the feeling well... "The Laser is more important than the Olympics....I don't want the class to lose Olympic status but I think  the class should not tear itself apart for Olympic status."

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All the comments about an alternative class association, that means only one thing - run by the builder.  Be careful what you wish for..l

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Wow!! There was a lot of discomfort in that  meeting. 

Way too many rumors and frustrated folks 

Now that the rumours are 'out', what are the best ways of dealing with them?

At stake is an evitable vote, and if the name isn't changed, then builders will not be appointed, and supply issues won't be fixed.

Also the Laser won't comply with the World Sailing Olympic Equipment policy.

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Where are the voices of the elite Laser sailors.....   They have the most skin in the game....the rank and file usually are persuaded by these folks??

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As being a european I can understand quite well the concerns of the sailers. There are different problems here than in the US, where no boats are availible. First have a look for the information politics of Eric an Tracey. On the german Laserclass site you can read, that 700 additional plaques were issued by ILCA/WS to LPE. From what I understood these are for boats that are already at the dealers. So the dealers might have made prepayments for these boats. Clients may have made prepayments to the dealers. As a client you may already have sold your old boat, that you need for campaining for olympics, youth worlds etc.. So the decertification of LPE at a time when most of the ordered boats had to be delivered has produced a lot trouble in Europe, especially just one year before the olympics. What would you do, when you want to pickup a new boat, who,ve already paid for, and find out that it's not class legal, and you can't use it? The info about these 700 plaques I could only find in german language, but not on the ILCA pages, which also had lead to some strange comments here on the forum. Why don't they inform on why they issued plaques? Was that correct? The information politics of the world coucil are very bad in the view of the europeans, and I can absolutely understand that the sailers have the feeling that the world coucils has seperated itself from the sailers base. Why don't they inform the sailers correctly and don't react openly on letters they were getting from EURLCA ? LPE has published that ILCA were not checking the production for years, and gave ILCA the responsibility for that. Now Eric says in the video the first time that this is not true, cause LP has refused technical inspections since 2015. Who is lying here? Why don't they inform on their homepage about that. Why don't they say that LPE infos are incorrect? Why don't they inform about the ongoing legal case in the US and the possible consequences of that? In other classes there is always a long international discussion before class rules can be changed. In Laser the world council seems to make confidential discussions with other parties, and tells the sailers what they have to do. There is in my opinion a big communication problem. Nevertheless I think Eric and Tracey are on the right path. But the way they try to manage the class is less than perfect. Also look at the illegal boats. Of course it was stupid that LPE  leaked these confidential infos, as this means the class is now divided in new - better and stiffer boats - and the old ones. Better boats is good, but "one design" is destroyed. No discussion, no infos, no member vote on that. Would have been unbelievable in other one design classes, 

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In a layered organization like ILCA just who has the responsibility for informing the sailors? For example, why would you volunteer to be a district representative if the Regional and International people simply go around you to communicate with your sailors? Perhaps the communication problem is the downward flow of the information through the regions to the districts to the sailors?  

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12 minutes ago, CenterboardBrake said:

In a layered organization like ILCA just who has the responsibility for informing the sailors? For example, why would you volunteer to be a district representative if the Regional and International people simply go around you to communicate with your sailors? Perhaps the communication problem is the downward flow of the information through the regions to the districts to the sailors?  

As a former Laser class district secretary, the main reason for volunteering to take on a job like that is to organize the district regatta circuit, publicize information about about those local regattas to members, encourage as many sailors as possible to come to those regattas, publish reports about those local regattas etc. etc.

In this day and age of digital communications I had no problem with the Regional and International Classes communicating directly to members in my district about regional and international issues and announcements and news. I didn't feel they had to do all that through me. That would just slow things down.

Yes, it is important for a district secretary to maintain good two-way communication with sailors in their district but that doesn't mean that the regional and international class officers can't communicate with them directly too.

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Hard to watch the video and have respect for the European representatives. That meeting went off the rails the minute Jean-Luc Michon was given the microphone and and fabricated a lie about not receiving an email. No apology when caught out in real time, instead his partner complained that it took like a day for her to get it. JFC, perfect example of why this has become such a mess, people more concerned about being important than in helping to solve the problem at hand. And at the end of the day, Eric made the effort to be there to, unbelievably, communicate directly to the sailors. And he gets shredded for doing it. 

 

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Wow... Maybe the Aero will steal a last minute victory.

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44 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

As being a european I can understand quite well the concerns of the sailers. There are different problems here than in the US, where no boats are availible. First have a look for the information politics of Eric an Tracey. On the german Laserclass site you can read, that 700 additional plaques were issued by ILCA/WS to LPE. From what I understood these are for boats that are already at the dealers. So the dealers might have made prepayments for these boats. Clients may have made prepayments to the dealers. As a client you may already have sold your old boat, that you need for campaining for olympics, youth worlds etc.. So the decertification of LPE at a time when most of the ordered boats had to be delivered has produced a lot trouble in Europe, especially just one year before the olympics. What would you do, when you want to pickup a new boat, who,ve already paid for, and find out that it's not class legal, and you can't use it? The info about these 700 plaques I could only find in german language, but not on the ILCA pages, which also had lead to some strange comments here on the forum. Why don't they inform on why they issued plaques? Was that correct? The information politics of the world coucil are very bad in the view of the europeans, and I can absolutely understand that the sailers have the feeling that the world coucils has seperated itself from the sailers base. Why don't they inform the sailers correctly and don't react openly on letters they were getting from EURLCA ? LPE has published that ILCA were not checking the production for years, and gave ILCA the responsibility for that. Now Eric says in the video the first time that this is not true, cause LP has refused technical inspections since 2015. Who is lying here? Why don't they inform on their homepage about that. Why don't they say that LPE infos are incorrect? Why don't they inform about the ongoing legal case in the US and the possible consequences of that? In other classes there is always a long international discussion before class rules can be changed. In Laser the world council seems to make confidential discussions with other parties, and tells the sailers what they have to do. There is in my opinion a big communication problem. Nevertheless I think Eric and Tracey are on the right path. But the way they try to manage the class is less than perfect. Also look at the illegal boats. Of course it was stupid that LPE  leaked these confidential infos, as this means the class is now divided in new - better and stiffer boats - and the old ones. Better boats is good, but "one design" is destroyed. No discussion, no infos, no member vote on that. Would have been unbelievable in other one design classes, 

This is very interesting, and a bit perplexing.

ILCA created a new position on the ILCA World Council to ensure that Europe had a stronger voice. That position was filled by Alexandra Behrens, who is the German LaserKlasse President. While she is fairly new, it also means that ILCA information can be in German - and German concerns can be aired at ILCA World Council.

I agree that communication can be improved, and what you say above about the plaques is a good example of where.

That being said, there have been genuine attempts by the ILCA to spell out some of the issues about the plaques on the ILCA website. In light of the above, I don't think that it addresses your concerns.Your question of who is lying about inspections is a good one. Shall we put that to the test and try our collective best to find out?

I think that part of the problem is that too many things are considered 'commercially sensitive' and transparency suffers as a result.

I haven't dealt with all of your points above - though I'd like to, I'm out of time.

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8 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Guy from Texas grabbing  thread “microphone” and a loop of extra wire in the same hand:

This is a thread about the ILCA withdrawing eligibility of LP built toys and the fact the ILCA is seeking new builders. 

We can have a discussion about not discussing other subjects some other time but this thread is about ILCA refusing to accept toys from the company with rights to use the trademark and ILCA seeking  a new supplier.

We cannot control the discussions between the commercial interests which World  Sailing is moderating. Maybe it will be seen as aggression by LP but the ILCA currently has no “life Boat” and is in the middle of the ocean on a boat that refuses to go to our home shore. 

We want lifejacketS and lifeboats.

We can talk about not talking some other time and we did talk to the captain in a meeting a couple weeks ago. The  ILCA President is doing a great job.

This thread is about refusing to allow use of LP boats in our contests and finding a new builder. .....

Hands “Microphone” to random poster who is eager to comment ....


What we've got here is failure to communicate...
 

 

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42 minutes ago, tillerman said:


What we've got here is failure to communicate...
 

Certainly a lot more talking than listening. Too bad there aren't more Europeans on this site. Almost all of their concerns have been discussed well-beaten somewhere in these 22 pages.  

This video reminds me of a staff meeting in a large company, with the beleaguered office head taking body punches from the more vocal staff members. The speakers are more interested in listening to themselves than trying to understand the messages and direction of management. And - there is always the "poor communication" claims that are the bane of all large companies.  Of course, there is always room for improvement, but there is also always more than most people are aware.  And that little bastard gentleman who was asking for heads to roll and ignorantly asked "who wrote the FRAND for the Laser class" should be beaten with a wet mainsheet. I also think Jean-Luc Michon  showed a surprising lack of class with his posture and eye-rolling. If he is EurILCA's spokesperson, nobody else must have applied for that role.

The comments regarding disproportionate representation on the WC are noted, but in the event of a membership vote, that becomes moot. The Euros will get there way. Olympics or not, hopefully Jean-Luc et al can get LP to send some boats off the Continent. 

I do sense, unfortunately, that there is a bit of an underlying anti-American sentiment in all this. As a Canadian working over the years for a number of American-based global companies, I  can say it is not uncommon. Cultural differences are significant.

 

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12 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Certainly a lot more talking than listening. Too bad there aren't more Europeans on this site. Almost all of their concerns have been discussed well-beaten somewhere in these 22 pages.  

This video reminds me of a staff meeting in a large company, with the beleaguered office head taking body punches from the more vocal staff members. The speakers are more interested in listening to themselves than trying to understand the messages and direction of management. And - there is always the "poor communication" claims that are the bane of all large companies.  Of course, there is always room for improvement, but there is also always more than most people are aware.  And that little bastard gentleman who was asking for heads to roll and ignorantly asked "who wrote the FRAND for the Laser class" should be beaten with a wet mainsheet. I also think Jean-Luc Michon  showed a surprising lack of class with his posture and eye-rolling. If he is EurILCA's spokesperson, nobody else must have applied for that role.

The comments regarding disproportionate representation on the WC are noted, but in the event of a membership vote, that becomes moot. The Euros will get there way. Olympics or not, hopefully Jean-Luc et al can get LP to send some boats off the Continent. 

I do sense, unfortunately, that there is a bit of an underlying anti-American sentiment in all this. As a Canadian working over the years for a number of American-based global companies, I  can say it is not uncommon. Cultural differences are significant.

 

I detect there is a certain lack of understanding and respect going both ways.

As a Brit who was involved in managing a consolidation of European and American departments into one organization for a multi-national company, I also see a lot that was familiar to me from my professional life.

You can see the cultural differences playing out in this video. And the different agendas and priorities based on different local issues and needs.

Although I have a great deal of respect for Tracy and Eric,  in retrospect it may not have been a very smart or sensitive choice to have both the President and General Manager of an international organization like this be Americans based in America (especially when most of the members are European.)

 

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9 minutes ago, tillerman said:


Although I have a great deal of respect for Tracy and Eric,  in retrospect it may not have been a very smart or sensitive choice to have both the President and General Manager of an international organization like this be Americans based in America (especially when most of the members are European.)

 

X2

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

Certainly a lot more talking than listening. Too bad there aren't more Europeans on this site. Almost all of their concerns have been discussed well-beaten somewhere in these 22 pages.  

I've invited a few. Also have provided links on some FB pages. I'm sure you guys know a few too. :) (I don't have any sock puppets, never will).

 

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That video on the EurILCA Facebook page is the first time I have heard the recent class actions involving a rule and name change referred to as a backup plan.

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17 minutes ago, torrid said:

That video on the EurILCA Facebook page is the first time I have heard the recent class actions involving a rule and name change referred to as a backup plan.

Eric is a good politician. He is doing the best he can to sell the rule change to the Europeans. Didn't you like the life jacket analogy? What sailor could disagree with that?

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10 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Wow!! There was a lot of discomfort in that  meeting. 

Way too many rumors and frustrated folks 

You got that right, Gouv. My BP was at warp 8.

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5 hours ago, CenterboardBrake said:

Hard to watch the video and have respect for the European representatives. That meeting went off the rails the minute Jean-Luc Michon was given the microphone and and fabricated a lie about not receiving an email. No apology when caught out in real time, instead his partner complained that it took like a day for her to get it. JFC, perfect example of why this has become such a mess, people more concerned about being important than in helping to solve the problem at hand. And at the end of the day, Eric made the effort to be there to, unbelievably, communicate directly to the sailors. And he gets shredded for doing it. 

 

You nailed it.

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33 minutes ago, torrid said:

That video on the EurILCA Facebook page is the first time I have heard the recent class actions involving a rule and name change referred to as a backup plan.

I think their exact wording was "contingency planning" which started in 2018 when the World Sailing Olympic Equipment policies were being discussed.

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36 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

World Sailing has this FRAND thing. Why?

Is there a higher authority than WS making WS demand FRAND?

Who gives WS its authority to demand FRAND? 

Kim Andersen answers most of the questions here: https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2019/05/12/kim-andersen-preparing-for-change/

The history includes a legal action, nothing to do with Lasers.

The higher authorities are governments and their legislation (Specifically EU directives) plus the IOC.

The 'authority' who 'controls' World Sailing? World Sailing's 'control' is dominated by Member Nation Authorities (MNAs) using representative democracy processes.

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1 hour ago, aroy210677 said:

You nailed it.

It's pretty clear that Jean Luc is facilitating if not, instigating the spread of false rumours and misinformation throughout the class associations; there is no way the various letters would've been published from the Italians, Spaniards et al without consulting Jean Luc first. My question to you Andy, has Jean Luc even proposed any other viable solution for keeping the class in the Olympics? Or has he been happy just to offer his criticism without any constructive input? 

 

Further, shouldn't we have seen a vote being sent out by now? I'm on the committee for a district association and haven't heard anything through our communication lines yet. 

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I just listened to the entire video posted above. Wow. Eric showed real restraint and professionalism in advancing what he believes is the best path forward. You may agree or disagree with the path, but kudos for him in discussing the issue directly with the sailors in this tough forum. I understand that there are some hard feelings all round that go back over many years, but I find the innuendo against him personally and the ILCA management of Tracy very distasteful. He was the class act in that forum as he put the class before his own comfort.

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31 minutes ago, mob590 said:

I just listened to the entire video posted above. Wow. Eric showed real restraint and professionalism in advancing what he believes is the best path forward. You may agree or disagree with the path, but kudos for him in discussing the issue directly with the sailors in this tough forum. I understand there some hard feelings all round that go back over many years, but I find the innuendo against him personally and the ILCA management of Tracy very distasteful. He was the class act in that forum as he put the class before his own comfort.

I agree that Eric did an excellent job of reporting on the recent negotiations and explaining the need to vote on the rule change.

But that hostility from the Europeans to the ILCA leadership looked like it was based on great frustration with the direction ILCA has been taking and must have been building for some time. I was very sad to see this. I don't remember seeing anything as dysfunctional as this in the thirty years I was a Laser class member.

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7 hours ago, bill4 said:

do sense, unfortunately, that there is a bit of an underlying anti-American sentiment in all this. As a Canadian working over the years for a number of American-based global companies, I  can say it is not uncommon. Cultural differences are significant.

Don't believe there is anti American sentiment in Europe, except for Trump and some people around him. Cultural differences? No idea.. Very calm discussion for southern Europe standards in Rose's I believe. I heard somewhere that Americans find the European way to discuss or talk very rude, while this may just be the normal way of democratic discussion here. Ever seen some discussion in European parliaments? Britain HOP Brexit discussions?

 

Some very sharp and clear questions came up, where I think  people would have expected clear and sharp answers, and not politicians beat about the Bush. Class members that need to vote on major class rule changes, need to know all the details, so they can take a proper decision. Ilca world council may have failed to communicate properly what this is all about. Just repeating several times the same "we need the vote to stay Olympic" without going deeply into the details does not  change minds. Talks about confidential stuff only makes them angry. This is not a discussion on CIA operations in north Korea. that have to stay top secret. 

LPE has posted some news on the FRAND discussion on Facebook, where they try to make sailers believe that Ilca first has to sign the trademark agreement, otherwise they would sign such a FRAND  contract. Any comments from Ilca on this? 

LPE has posted a lot of stuff on their homepage. https://www.laserperformance.us/ilca-news Many questions of European sailers are related to these informations. When Ilca is staying quiet to properly respond on that, they make the sailers believe that this is all true, and Ilca is acting incorrectly. 

Talk Ilca, inform your members, discuss. Last important News.is from may 31! 

There might be other people here that can better explain what the cultural differences between US VS EUR are, maybe I've got it completely wrong. 

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Perhaps ILCA are unable to talk because of their legal advice? I completely agree that their has been a lot of shit slinging from LPE aimed at ILCA, with nothing in response from ILCA which has probably led many to believe everything LPE is saying. I've heard from a World Council member that ILCA have wanted to take the moral high ground by not engaging in a "he said, she said" press release/social media battle. However, their lack of replies may have made ILCA start to look like the bad guys. 

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It is two way communication that is the issue here. It is the responsibility of the EU reps on the World Council to raise issues on EU member's behalf.

That means asking the questions clearly. 

Some of the issues raised seemed new to Eric, they seemed to surprise him. There is a big gap in the information given on the ILCA website and the questions asked at the meeting. Technically, Tracy is responsible, however (and it is a huge HOWEVER), Tracy can't be in all places at once, so it is the responsibility of the regional reps to ensure that their region's voice was heard.

Specifically, that was Jean Luc's responsibility; and to a lesser extent Alexandra's (because she is new to ILCA World Council).

It seemed very apparent that Jean Luc was sowing discord in the meeting. Raising the question of the email blindsided Eric for sure. Either Jean Luc was unaware of the impact (which I hope he was) or it was deliberate. I think Jean Luc has some very serious questions to answer about both this, and how come the rest of the ILCA did not know about these questions until the meeting?

I would say that Eric did put feelers out before the meeting, would he be at fault if he was misinformed?

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6 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Until the old men get the hell out of the way and turn the game over to the most enthusiastic responsible kids, the game will continue to whither. 

Excellent idea. Now could you tell us how the hell to find those kids because I sure as hell don't see many volunteers coming forward.  How many contested elections do you see in sport round your way? Can't remember the last one in my area.

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Seems the EurICLA are now deleting comments from their Facebook video post, a couple of mine are gone along with an informative post from Chris Caldecoat debunking the EurICLA accusation of PSA not supplying boats for the NZ youths

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5 minutes ago, JMP said:

Seems the EurICLA are now deleting comments from their Facebook video post, a couple of mine are gone along with an informative post from Chris Caldecoat debunking the EurICLA accusation of PSA not supplying boats for the NZ youths

EurILCA are in damage control.

I  thought it was an informative post so I took a copy:

EurILCA FB Page - comments Chris Caldecoat 23 June 2019.png

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Does Frand man that supply of sails and spars would also be opened up to new suppliers?  

That would seem to be a step forward.

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Chris Caldecoat's post raises some interesting issues. (Caldecoat has been very quiet over the last few months). Other than the two World Youth Champs, I can't recall LP supplying boats in ILCA since around 2011/2012. Can anyone else?

PSJ and PSA have, multiple times.

---

In the scale of things, this is just one small example of many where there have been contrary statements made, the contrary versions both can't be true.

It is increasingly apparent that there has been a sustained misinformation campaign by LaserPerformance, which has successfully misinformed many Europeans. It would seem that a select few may have assisted LaserPerformance to do this. The result is for everyone to see in a full blown rift between EurILCA and ILCA.

The best way to deal with this misinformation is one item at a time.

Because there are so many, it raises the question on how best to present them to maximise reach into the EU?

The objective of this work is to mend the rift between EurILCA executive committee and ILCA World Council. A tough task, but not impossible.

I might have to increase my time spent on this a little, however it is probably worth it.

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31 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Please don’t @BruceH-NZ.  

It doesn't appear that anybody else is.

Normally there would be independent investigative reporters working on this, fact checking, and disseminating information.

Ideally, a meaningful attempt to deal with the misinformation this needs to happen before the opening of voting - which must be getting close.

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One of the reasons your rep is so low is that you misinterpret information, get hung up on irrelevant details and obfuscate.

You are not well placed to fact check, educate and inform us on this topic.  Indeed, it is somewhat patronising that you think we need putting straight and are too stupid to make an informed opinion.  It is also arrogant to think that posting on here is going to somehow heal a rift between ILCA and EurILCA.  

Sorry to be so blunt but we really don’t need you to “take charge”.

The question WS need to answer is why they shortlisted 4 classes for the singlehander slot, none of which have a FRAND business model and most likely none could move to by the start of August even if willing to in principle.  I’m no Finn fan boy, but at least it is. FRAND class...

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On 6/22/2019 at 7:11 AM, tillerman said:

I think Charles Campion from the UK summed up the feeling well... "The Laser is more important than the Olympics....I don't want the class to lose Olympic status but I think  the class should not tear itself apart for Olympic status."

THIS!!!  But alas I think the dice are cast and everyone is entrenched in their position. Only questions now is does the vote pass, and if no then what and if yes how many days till the lawsuit... either way the class I knew ain't ever going to be the same.  What a shame. All for the Olympics. 

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6 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

The question WS need to answer is why they shortlisted 4 classes for the singlehander slot, none of which have a FRAND business model and most likely none could move to by the start of August even if willing to in principle.  I’m no Finn fan boy, but at least it is. FRAND class...

And why the premier class in the world would get sucked into such a self destructive mess to appease WS.  I just don't get it.

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This goes beyond Sailing Academy, as indicated in my post you appear to be reacting to. My posts here are not a reflection of my normal work. This is social media, so different rules apply which include alternate interpretations, tangents and obfuscation. (Have you watched the doco 'Merchants of Doubt'?) 

Respectfully, I don't think ILCA members are too stupid or "need putting straight" to make an informed opinion. In talking directly to several it is apparent that some are unaware they have been mislead by misinformation. Here's a statement made to me recently (not on SA):
image.png.9be785b39f1a91a0dbe15bb11de05a81.png

The thanks referred to information that I shared with him/her which is already in the public domain.

Sailing Academy is the wrong forum to do that sort of work which is why I suggested a website. (Did you deliberately misinterpret me Sosoomii?) On second thoughts, a Facebook page might be just as good. So to answer the presumption that lead to your comment, I don't think posting here is going to heal a rift between ILCA World Council and the EurILCA executive committee. Also, I don't think there is a rift between most sailors - and those who think Eric is not working for the benefit of the class are misinformed. Particularly those who don't want FRAND seem to think that ILCA has an option. (Actually there is, however the ILCA World Council is clear that they want the class to remain Olympic, and Eric is doing his job.)

Take charge? Not sure what you think I'm thinking here - is that a joke? I'm not in charge nor have any desire to be. With better presentation of what is already known, many of the statements made and resulting questions can be addressed. Independence is important. This isn't taking charge, nor even close to it.

---

I agreed with your question about the shortlisted classes for World Sailing. Having 2 or 3 existing builders makes the Laser remain the front runner. ILCA World Council is committed to retaining the Olympic status is working to make the changes. 

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On 6/22/2019 at 5:11 AM, tillerman said:

I think Charles Campion from the UK summed up the feeling well... "The Laser is more important than the Olympics....I don't want the class to lose Olympic status but I think  the class should not tear itself apart for Olympic status."

I think the class is already being torn apart by LP ignoring their non-Euro customers and prospective customers. 

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43 minutes ago, Wess said:

And why the premier class in the world would get sucked into such a self destructive mess to appease WS.  I just don't get it.

 May be naive thinking but it seems to me that the Olympics (well, WS) needs the Laser more than the Laser needs the Olympics... it also seems that Laser Performance know this and that they have a strong hand (since they can walk away and still have a viable business).

 ILCA don't appear to have the support of most of their members, nor are they going the right way about winning them over... (they did not come across well at that meeting to European eyes, despite what is written here from a NA perspective).

 It seems quite possible that they are overplaying a weak hand. 

 As I've said before... if they want European support they need to win it, and evasive answers and promises are not doing so...

Cheers,

               W.

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6 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

ILCA don't appear to have the support of most of their members, nor are they going the right way about winning them over... (they did not come across well at that meeting to European eyes, despite what is written here from a NA perspective).

Agreed. I anticipate that the meeting is a wake up call, and expect improvements from the ILCA World Council.

That been said, solutions are more likely to come from within the European region (including Scotland!) - and certainly not New Zealand. I'm picking up on some interesting comments by Europeans who I am talking to about Jean Luc. Though understand that I am somewhat of a magnet for dissent.

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