Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

Recommended Posts

19 minutes ago, shanghaisailor said:

 

Does an existing Ford Motor Car owner have any rights over how the Ford Motor Company is currently building their cars? I don't think so.

It might be smart of FORD to listen to existing customers for when they want to buy a new car but they don't have to do anything. 

Or am I missing something?

SS 

 

It's a waste of everyone's time when people compare government sanctioned, monopoly-controlled sporting organizations with near absolute control over competition standards and entry requirements with random companies selling random shit.

Someone selling cars has literally nothing to compare to  government-sanctioned sporting monopoly rules.  That's what you are missing.

LPE has now become Ford though, with no right to anything to do with Olympics or any major ILCA-sanctioned championship.  The have no more say.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, BlatantEcho said:

Clearly you guys aren't in the loop.

 

EurILCA (and all of Europe) is controlled by THREE dealers - all of whom are deeply in bed with LaserPerformance.
The Euros pay zero attention to the rest of the world, and for years have ignored the plight of the class anywhere else but Europe.

The Italian, German and Dutch dealers all serve those three entire countries with just three dealers.
You don't think they aren't going to come out strongly and support LP??  Of course they are.  They are isolated and the three most powerful people in Europe for Laser sailing.  That's where their bread is buttered guys, get a clue.

 

No one should be the LEAST bit surprised by this.  Politics as usual with guys who make all the money now.
They don't care about sailors in the least, just protecting their turf in the easiest way possible - fighting for the status quo.

Drain the swamp!

#MLGA

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Tcatman said:

What current international classes currently own their intellectual property?  In small multihulls... Nacra and Hobie CA's don't.   Don't know about C2's/Vipers but I doubt it.   The only one I know of is the Tornado Class who cut a deal with Rodney March back in the day.   I never understood how big a deal this might prove to be.

I could easily be wrong and don't have time to dig but the Opti class may.  I think...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I have to think it is older classes that have never been SMOD.  .   Lightining. Albacore, 505 Windmills, Snipes ????

I guess the problem for laser started when Kirby sold the IP rights to LPE  to cash out...

I dimly remember reading that the Viper 640 class bought their IP and contracted with a decent builder to become a successful class.    True??

I know ISAF/World Sailing really wants control of a class via dollar leverage/contracts... and hates having to deal with sailor politics of a sailor/owner run class  (see Tornado experience and the solution now of the N17 class)

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, Tcatman said:

I have to think it is older classes that have never been SMOD.  .   Lightining. Albacore, 505 Windmills, Snipes ????

I guess the problem for laser started when Kirby sold the IP rights to LPE  to cash out...

I dimly remember reading that the Viper 640 class bought their IP and contracted with a decent builder to become a successful class.    True??

I know ISAF/World Sailing really wants control of a class via dollar leverage/contracts... and hates having to deal with sailor politics of a sailor/owner run class  (see Tornado experience and the solution now of the N17 class)

 

He "sold" them to PSA/Global Sailing.  He then "bought" them back.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, BlatantEcho said:

EurILCA (and all of Europe) is controlled by THREE dealers [snip] Politics as usual with guys who make all the money now.
They don't care about sailors in the least, just protecting their turf in the easiest way possible - fighting for the status quo.

Why do you think this?  EurILCA should be controlled by its members and its members are Laser sailors, no?   If those sailors are happy with the service they get from their dealers and LPE and want to keep them then EurILCA's position is quite reasonable and appropriate.  If they are working at cross interest to their members - the sailors - that will become quite clear pretty fast.  Its odd though that its EurILCA that is saying this stuff should be taken to the sailors for a vote.  Its ILCA that seem to be taking unilateral action both with LPE and the rigs without seek member input.  I am not a fan of the position (current or past) of ILCA but can certainly agree they should adopt a position that supports the views of its members (even if I don't happen to like or agree it).  Same way I would expect EurILCA to support and align with its European members/sailors and not US or sailors from some other region.

Why are you seemingly critical of an organization adopting a position aligned with its members interest... isn't that what they are supposed to do??

I mean I wish ILCA and EurILCA would adopt positions more aligned with grass roots and club level Laser sailor... but those folks ain't join so I can't hardly blame either organization for doing what their members want.

What we maybe have here is a case where EurICLA is aligned with its members and ILCA is not and that kinda surprises me.  It will be interesting to follow those pages and see if actual EurILCA members are in disagreement.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
54 minutes ago, torrid said:

He "sold" them to PSA/Global Sailing.  He then "bought" them back.

There are (at least) two kind of "rights" here and I think people are getting them confused.

Bruce Kirby had the "right" to receive royalties from Laser builders. This was by virtue of contracts he had with the builders - and was reinforced by a Laser class rule which said that to be a builder of Lasers recognized by the class, that builder had to have a contract with Bruce Kirby. Bruce sold these rights (or the company that owned those rights) to Global Sailing in 2010 or thereabouts. At the time he said it was an estate planning move - which makes sense. 

The other "rights" that are more important in the current battle are the trademarks to the Laser name and the Laser logo. These are owned by the builders in their respective territories. I am not sure about the history of the ownership of the trademarks. I guess they belonged to Bruce Kirby originally but, if so, I think they were transferred to the builders many decades ago. Can anybody enlighten us on that?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

pretty sure rastey owns the word laser in this context and the sunburst logo.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Tcatman said:

What current international classes currently own their intellectual property?  In small multihulls... Nacra and Hobie CA's don't.   Don't know about C2's/Vipers but I doubt it.   The only one I know of is the Tornado Class who cut a deal with Rodney March back in the day.   I never understood how big a deal this might prove to be.

Pretty sure most box rule/scantling monohulls/classes with a dead designer own the rights to their class name and logo, Finn, Lightning, Star, Snipe...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Tcatman said:

What current international classes currently own their intellectual property?  In small multihulls... Nacra and Hobie CA's don't.   Don't know about C2's/Vipers but I doubt it.   The only one I know of is the Tornado Class who cut a deal with Rodney March back in the day.   I never understood how big a deal this might prove to be.

This has certainly become an issue in SMOD world, see J/70.

The F18 class effectively owns their IP through control of the box rule. The current World Championship boat is also an open source hull/foil design. The builder has a license agreement in place but the designer would be willing to license it to others if there were an issue with the current builder (there is not). Goodall own the IP behind the C2 and Viper, Windrush The Edge, Cirrus their R2, Nacra the Infusion etc. The reality however is once a boat is made public, reverse engineering said boat isn't rocket science. Building it to a quality target and price point is however.

Anyone could build a Laser hull. I won't get into the legality of the situation but I do think it is in the best interest of the class to own the IP and select multiple class legal builders. If I was a class member I would also vote to update the build guide and utilize modern materials and manufacturing techniques to build a stiffer, longer lasting and likely cheaper boat. This is in the interest of the average sailor. It is not in the interest of the builders.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, samc99us said:

stiffer, longer lasting and likely cheaper boat

There's a trick in there: if you update to new materials and technique that'll make the boat last longer, you have to hike up the margins to stay in business. If not now, later, because once the longer lived hulls are a significant percentage of the market, your sales will stagnate...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

There's a trick in there: if you update to new materials and technique that'll make the boat last longer...

There's an argument that the laser goes soft at pretty much the right rate - fast enough that plenty of newishness boats get cycled into the sh market, but slow enough that those boats are still worth having.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Maybe this post is the product of standing for the last bunch of hours holding a sander against the bottom of a boat. There isn’t a hell of a lot of thinking involved in fairing a 24 four hull, so the mind has too much time to over think stuff.

 

why oh why oh why are we having ANY of these conversations?? 

Something like 50,000 of us like to play a silly game on a certain sailboat boat.

There were four builders making the toys and all four were making money and making nice boats. 

What the hell happened?? 

Why?

Why hasn’t whatever caused a mess to develop been solved??

EVERYBODY involved would benefit from simply returning to whatever was going on pre problem 

NOBODY is currently in a better position than pre-problem. 

We don’t have to go back to the old way and stay there 

I am not suggesting that.

i am suggesting we do like we do with a computer. 

Pick a date where it was working and for which all the operational information is known. 

Wipe everything clean and go back to that setup.

Then, with the experience gained since that date, CAREFULLY, start installing desired new programs. 

DO NOT EVEN THINK ABOUT INSTALLING ANY PROGRAM THAT CAUSED A CRASH!!!! 

Remember this: EVERYBODY WANTS THERE TO BE LOTS OF BRAND NEW BOATS AND SAILS SOLD.

EVERYBODY!!!

We all want a healthy supply company whose profitability allows it to support warranty issues and the game played in its products.

We had that just a few years ago. 

In fact, pretty much the EXACT SAME PEOPLE  were running every aspect of the boat building and game playing. 

In fact, it has been apparent for years that each person involved is fully capable of making this work. 

Why do I have to type this??? 

 

 

Just a guess, but someone somewhere has a loan to pay

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, tillerman said:

There are (at least) two kind of "rights" here and I think people are getting them confused.

Bruce Kirby had the "right" to receive royalties from Laser builders. This was by virtue of contracts he had with the builders - and was reinforced by a Laser class rule which said that to be a builder of Lasers recognized by the class, that builder had to have a contract with Bruce Kirby. Bruce sold these rights (or the company that owned those rights) to Global Sailing in 2010 or thereabouts. At the time he said it was an estate planning move - which makes sense. 

The other "rights" that are more important in the current battle are the trademarks to the Laser name and the Laser logo. These are owned by the builders in their respective territories. I am not sure about the history of the ownership of the trademarks. I guess they belonged to Bruce Kirby originally but, if so, I think they were transferred to the builders many decades ago. Can anybody enlighten us on that?

There is no remaining IP on the design of the Laser. BK extended his income from the Laser long after the design rights expired by negotiating to receive a fee per boat fee ) based on a contract with the trademark owners/builders.

  BK assigned this contract to a company he owned called BKI .  Subsequently BK sold BKI to Global Sailing, the parent company of the Australian Laser builder.  The Australian builder purportedly terminated the contract with Laser Performance believing (incorrectly it turned out) that this would prevent LP from continuing to build the Laser (with obvious beneficial ramifications for GS).  There were three problems with the sale. Firstly, BK was in breach of the World Sailing contract which required he get permission to sell his contractual rights . Secondly, terminating the royalty/fee contract did not in fact allow GS to terminate the rights for a trademark owner to build boats because they didnt get permission from the Class . As I have posted on the Torch thread, class associations have intrinsic power as the monopoly customer and they can change their rules to benefit members....which they did.  Thirdly, GS made a very short sighted move if they terminated the contract...because all they achieved was effectively ending the right to receive the fee.  They had paid $ 2 million for something which they then made worthless :(  The litigation followed as GS tried to reinstate the contract. Thus far, no luck.

The Trademarks actually originally belonged to Ian Bruce who commissioned BK to design the Laser and owned the company that built and supplied Lasers world wide until he got overextended . At one time he owned or part owned 9 plants world wide building the Laser.  The Laser concept .....the idea of a simple, strict one design singe handed boat was originally Ian's ....and Ian wrote the class rules which were such an important ingredient to its success.  When IB was forced to liquidate, various parties acquired the trademarks but in order to secure clear rights they signed contracts with BK who still had a contract with IB's companies. One cant help but wonder how different the story might have been if IB had weathered the economic downturn in the late 70s/Early 80s and had continued to own and part own Laser production worldwide. The builders would have been controlled by someone whose passionate vision created the concept .  Ah well , instead we eventually got Rasty.

  • Like 6

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, IPLore said:

There is no remaining IP on the design of the Laser. BK extended his income from the Laser long after the design rights expired by negotiating to receive a fee per boat fee ) based on a contract with the trademark owners/builders.

  BK assigned this contract to a company he owned called BKI .  Subsequently BK sold BKI to Global Sailing, the parent company of the Australian Laser builder.  The Australian builder purportedly terminated the contract with Laser Performance believing (incorrectly it turned out) that this would prevent LP from continuing to build the Laser (with obvious beneficial ramifications for GS).  There were three problems with the sale. Firstly, BK was in breach of the World Sailing contract which required he get permission to sell his contractual rights . Secondly, terminating the royalty/fee contract did not in fact allow GS to terminate the rights for a trademark owner to build boats because they didnt get permission from the Class . As I have posted on the Torch thread, class associations have intrinsic power as the monopoly customer and they can change their rules to benefit members....which they did.  Thirdly, GS made a very short sighted move if they terminated the contract...because all they achieved was effectively ending the right to receive the fee.  They had paid $ 2 million for something which they then made worthless :(  The litigation followed as GS tried to reinstate the contract. Thus far, no luck.

The Trademarks actually originally belonged to Ian Bruce who commissioned BK to design the Laser and owned the company that built and supplied Lasers world wide until he got overextended . At one time he owned or part owned 9 plants world wide building the Laser.  The Laser concept .....the idea of a simple, strict one design singe handed boat was originally Ian's ....and Ian wrote the class rules which were such an important ingredient to its success.  When IB was forced to liquidate, various parties acquired the trademarks but in order to secure clear rights they signed contracts with BK who still had a contract with IB's companies. One cant help but wonder how different the story might have been if IB had weathered the economic downturn in the late 70s/Early 80s and had continued to own and part own Laser production worldwide. The builders would have been controlled by someone whose passionate vision created the concept .  Ah well , instead we eventually got Rasty.

"Ah well , instead we eventually got Rasty" - and he's a right cnut…...

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, IPLore said:

The Trademarks actually originally belonged to Ian Bruce who commissioned BK to design the Laser and owned the company that built and supplied Lasers world wide until he got overextended . At one time he owned or part owned 9 plants world wide building the Laser.  The Laser concept .....the idea of a simple, strict one design singe handed boat was originally Ian's ....and Ian wrote the class rules which were such an important ingredient to its success.  When IB was forced to liquidate, various parties acquired the trademarks but in order to secure clear rights they signed contracts with BK who still had a contract with IB's companies. 

Thanks for that explanation. Always nice to confuse the debate here with actual facts.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And now the German Laser Class (as well as the European Laser Class) have come out against ILCA's termination of LP along with a new explanation of what the real reason was for ILCA's action.

"The German Laser Class Association also weighed in on the controversy yesterday with a statement of their own. The German association asserts that the actual reason that ILCA terminated LaserPerformance was not the refusal of LaserPerformance to allow an inspection of the building facilities, but that LaserPerformance refuses to accept a Fair Reasonable and Non-Discriminative agreement that would be acceptable to World Sailing.

The German statement also criticized the ILCA’s decision to terminate LaserPerformance, by far the largest Laser builder in the world, asserting that:

+ ILCA refused to accept their offer of mediation on multiple occasions;

+ "A replacement for LaserPerformance is not yet in sight;" and

+ ILCA's actions will result in a significant deterioration of the supply of class-legal Lasers in Europe and beyond, with a supply from the ILCA-approved Australian boat-builder seen as "impractical and expensive."

The German Association also stated, "If everything goes according to the plans of the ILCA, we will soon be sailing "The Boat Formerly Known as the Laser" inasmuch as [the German Class asserts] the brand rights are owned by LaserPerformance not ILCA."

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2019/04/04/OpEd-European-Laser-Class-Association-goes-public-with-their-disagreement-with-ILCAs-decision-to-terminate-LaserPerformance-as-a-builder-so-too-the-German-Laser-Class?fbclid=IwAR0J8pNLwx9bfGNgaJvmPN4dMaJjopmPFWKdVg70Oo2ScFJWlocU-qhDoa0


 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So we need to make a red version of this for the sail? 

126A3399-06E1-443D-A7A7-177D5632BCA4.png

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tillerman said:

And now the German Laser Class (as well as the European Laser Class) have come out against ILCA's termination of LP along with a new explanation of what the real reason was for ILCA's action.

"The German Laser Class Association also weighed in on the controversy yesterday with a statement of their own. The German association asserts that the actual reason that ILCA terminated LaserPerformance was not the refusal of LaserPerformance to allow an inspection of the building facilities, but that LaserPerformance refuses to accept a Fair Reasonable and Non-Discriminative agreement that would be acceptable to World Sailing.

The German statement also criticized the ILCA’s decision to terminate LaserPerformance, by far the largest Laser builder in the world, asserting that:

+ ILCA refused to accept their offer of mediation on multiple occasions;

+ "A replacement for LaserPerformance is not yet in sight;" and

+ ILCA's actions will result in a significant deterioration of the supply of class-legal Lasers in Europe and beyond, with a supply from the ILCA-approved Australian boat-builder seen as "impractical and expensive."

The German Association also stated, "If everything goes according to the plans of the ILCA, we will soon be sailing "The Boat Formerly Known as the Laser" inasmuch as [the German Class asserts] the brand rights are owned by LaserPerformance not ILCA."

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2019/04/04/OpEd-European-Laser-Class-Association-goes-public-with-their-disagreement-with-ILCAs-decision-to-terminate-LaserPerformance-as-a-builder-so-too-the-German-Laser-Class?fbclid=IwAR0J8pNLwx9bfGNgaJvmPN4dMaJjopmPFWKdVg70Oo2ScFJWlocU-qhDoa0


 

Yea, saw this too and can only think its a sad to see the class imploding like this.  Who knows, maybe something good comes out of it in the end.

Its becoming very clear that ILCA took action that the organizations who represent the majority of ILCA sailors do not agree with and apparently were not even consulted about.

Be interesting to know if World Sailing have or are even trying to put in place the same FRANDs for other Laser builder territories.  If no, its not a good look for ILCA and WS.  If yes and accepted by other builders, then not a good look for LPE.  Will just add that if its no then LPE may have a reasonable grounds for refusing inspection which would explain why they have been so open about it.

Either way,  lawyers be all like $$$$$, and sailors be all like WTF????

Maybe its time to blow it all up and start over with a generic class for a laser spec.  Call its the Grass Roots Class.  :)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interestingly, ILCA are offering charter boats in Canada for the Youth Worlds this summer.

I wonder where they are sourcing them from.

Hmm,

             W.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
33 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yea, saw this too and can only think its a sad to see the class imploding like this. 

Anyone who has been watching the class for a decade or longer knows this isn't an implosion at all Wess, unless you have other information that we havent' seen here.

The implosion happened years ago when the RI facilitiy closed and the litigation got serious, with the fallout shrinking the class over the past few years like nothing before ever has. Knowing LP owner's history quite well and having read almost every piece of litigation he has been involved in, ILCA's move is actually their last big chance at self-rescue.  

The fact that LP's most closely-knit dealers are coming out against this is what anyone would have expected.  They are also in the only area in the world that hasn't had the catastrophic supply problems that everywhere else has.  For Olympians and juniors from places like Chile and Argentina and Canada, that matters a lot.

I can't believe we haven't seen a lawsuit yet frankly.  You'd think Rastegar's lawyers would be quicker!

 

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Anyone who has been watching the class for a decade or longer knows this isn't an implosion at all Wess, unless you have other information that we havent' seen here.

The implosion happened years ago when the RI facilitiy closed and the litigation got serious, with the fallout shrinking the class over the past few years like nothing before ever has. Knowing LP owner's history quite well and having read almost every piece of litigation he has been involved in, ILCA's move is actually their last big chance at self-rescue.  

The fact that LP's most closely-knit dealers are coming out against this is what anyone would have expected.  They are also in the only area in the world that hasn't had the catastrophic supply problems that everywhere else has.  For Olympians and juniors from places like Chile and Argentina and Canada, that matters a lot.

I can't believe we haven't seen a lawsuit yet frankly.  You'd think Rastegar's lawyers would be quicker!

 

 

 

Not sure I agree.  The term implosion aside, what I mean is that its sad to see the official class itself starting to fracture and split.  Every where I have ever traveled - and that has been pretty damn far and wide - if there was water nearby you could find a Laser fleet and a friend and have something in common.  I really like that. Its what makes the Laser special to me.  So I hate seeing fracture of the class and sailors.

I agree and disagree the comment about the class shrinking.  If you mean those sailing Lasers, I think its done better than sailing in general and racing especially.  Maybe it was even better pre-me but I have not seen a huge decline in the number of folks racing Lasers and wherever and whenever I travel its easy to find a fleet.   If you mean official class members... those part of ILCA... yes I agree.  Chicken and egg thing and I don't know what came first but grass roots and club sailors don't join and ILCA does not cater to them. They support the higher level sailor.  And if I am totally honestly, I don't care about the problems of the Olympic sailor here, there or anywhere. I am more interested in club level grass roots sailing, junior programs, and those assisting inner city youth.  You say that this might be the last chance for ICLA to save itself... self-rescue.  But to me - and I don't mean the mess with LPE, this or the prior litigation - ICLA needs to save itself from itself.  It is focused (maybe rightly given those are the members) on the few at the top of the pyramid of Laser sailing and not at the club level.  Does not seem sustainable.  Can't blame that on RI, LPE, Kirby.   ILCA, Kirby w Torch, builders, or others could reinvent and re-energize this class with a focus at the grass roots club level.  @Gouvernailand I often share this grass roots passion though we likely see different paths to get there.

Anyway, its turning into too long a post and too far off the topic.

Bottom line is its blowing up again.  :(

On the positive side, its Friday, my 32 anniversary weekend and I have got enough done on the new to us tri refit that we are going to head out for a short weekend cruise.  Hopefully all will be good with the Laser world when we get back.... if we get back... gotta hope my rudder and cobbled together batt bank repairs hold up.

PS - I actually kinda hope ILCA holds firm and LPE is gone, because at that stage it likely ain't a LASER anymore.  And the closer things move to generic names and generic boats the better things are for the kinda stuff I like to do.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Wess said:

ICLA needs to save itself from itself.  It is focused (maybe rightly given those are the members) on the few at the top of the pyramid of Laser sailing and not at the club level.  Does not seem sustainable. 

Wess, This sounds like my critique of the A class.  What I came to realize is ...  that duh! "its a single handed boat: duh!    ergo.... It's just about ME.      There are NO elements of club here...   You pack up your single handed boat and drive several hours to mid winters or a winter Florida circuit  (A Class) responsible only for your self and your personal entertainment... no crew or team or family to manage.    The international and national class leadership can manage this..    They simply purchase a Yacht Club's regatta service package.   They don't count on some club's members who have a deep attachment to the single handed class to organize and run the event.     In fact,.... there is no expectation that you will show up at the next event ... there is no peer pressure to keep the circuit going.  This community is pretty  transactional.

In a fantasy world.... what would you have done to support laser sailing at the local level and how would you do it.?  I really don't know!  

In A Class world,  club sailing has proven to be unsustainable with few exceptions..while a national winter circuit and a handful of regional events all run by other organizations is the state of the game.    At the end of the day...I concluded that  you are left with trying to make a group of INDIVIDUALS spread around the country organize as a typical club.   Ok...sure....  but there is not much value added there and the individuals don't value this much at all.   For A class and Moths... its pretty clear you don't need much of a club level base in the states.

So,  without an obvious service  delivered for your dues...   why would a local club sailor join the international class .... same question as to why join US Sailing.   In laser world...    How do you find a common interest among Olympic sailors,  Kids, College aged sailors, national level adults and club level adults... Not to mention two rig sizes.    You should offer some thoughts here with reference to club sailing.

I think Clean cuts to the core of the issue...  at the first level... you need boats, parts and service.... this very issue is the reason you join your class association because  the free market doesn't work in sailboat racing classes.   The class association has an essential role to play in getting this right.... otherwise, dead man walking.   Sounds to me that the ILCA leadership has it right here...

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Quote

but we know most don't see it that way

So...resale value.. because of giant championships....   Do you have any data?

Strict one design maintains resale value... Again do you have any data?

I get why full on competitors value these two things...  but without some data.... the average club sailor....doesn't believe you that this is to their benefit... AND... you don't convince anyone to join up by insinuating that they are cheats as free riders... especially over things that YOU value  and they don't care about.

Hey... its not so bad to have the rank and file... just going... meh.... class membership!..  It could be worse... when I owned an A class.... I was convinced the feckless leadership Internationally and Nationally were pissing away dollars and making decisions that were not serving my basic interests.   5 years later... new leadership recognized the reality of two divisions/classes of A's.            meh... is much better then feckless asses.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes and Yes   are assertions.... Do you have a citation with some data and a model?    ( I don't have one and would love to see something)

Quote

and are happy to ride for free on the dues others pay. 

Ok... what did you mean then...

I use cheats  (as in cheating on the other dues paying members or shirking responsibility)    whatever.... I don't think you meant to compliment non dues paying owners.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, tillerman said:

And now the German Laser Class (as well as the European Laser Class) have come out against ILCA's termination of LP along with a new explanation of what the real reason was for ILCA's action.

"The German Laser Class Association also weighed in on the controversy yesterday with a statement of their own. The German association asserts that the actual reason that ILCA terminated LaserPerformance was not the refusal of LaserPerformance to allow an inspection of the building facilities, but that LaserPerformance refuses to accept a Fair Reasonable and Non-Discriminative agreement that would be acceptable to World Sailing.

The German statement also criticized the ILCA’s decision to terminate LaserPerformance, by far the largest Laser builder in the world, asserting that:

+ ILCA refused to accept their offer of mediation on multiple occasions;

+ "A replacement for LaserPerformance is not yet in sight;" and

+ ILCA's actions will result in a significant deterioration of the supply of class-legal Lasers in Europe and beyond, with a supply from the ILCA-approved Australian boat-builder seen as "impractical and expensive."

The German Association also stated, "If everything goes according to the plans of the ILCA, we will soon be sailing "The Boat Formerly Known as the Laser" inasmuch as [the German Class asserts] the brand rights are owned by LaserPerformance not ILCA."

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2019/04/04/OpEd-European-Laser-Class-Association-goes-public-with-their-disagreement-with-ILCAs-decision-to-terminate-LaserPerformance-as-a-builder-so-too-the-German-Laser-Class?fbclid=IwAR0J8pNLwx9bfGNgaJvmPN4dMaJjopmPFWKdVg70Oo2ScFJWlocU-qhDoa0


 

Apparently what was reported as the position of the German Laser Class was actually only the opinion of the President of the German Laser Class.

Alexandra Behrens - President of the German Laser Class recently posted on Facebook...

"Please note that there is NO statement of the German Laser Class. If somebody read my post correctly, he / she would notice that it is asking the German Laser sailors for their opinion about the ILCA press release. Since I voted against the termination of the LCMA by ILCA I also explained my reasons to do so. This is my personal opinion and NOT a statement of the German Laser Class. We may publish a statement but as a democratic organization I would not do so without knowing the opinion of the board and the members."

The source which I quoted has amended its post to make it clear that statement is from Ms Behrens - not the German Laser Class. 

Ms Behrens is also an At-Large Member of the ILCA World Council.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tcatman said:

Why would a local club sailor join the international class

 

A great question.

Why, in this day and age, do we need to join class associations?

Didn't class associations originate in the days when the only means of communication between sailors with a common interest in any particular sailboat was the class newsletter? This newsletter was on paper and was typically mailed once a quarter. It was a top-down communication, edited by some central authority, full of news several months old etc. etc. But it was the main way that people could say, "Hey we are having a regatta at Ploppagoolagoop Yacht Club on June 1st - come and join us." In fact getting a copy of that newsletter with the list of upcoming regattas was the main - maybe only - reason that local club sailors joined the class.

Now that we have emails and websites and social media and Sailing Anarchy, we have a multitude of free ways to communicate with other sailors who own the same sailboat as us. Why on earth do we need to join a class association at all?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, lemonpepper said:

I've never heard of Mrs Behrens or that there was a seat on council for an at large member. I guess I'm out of it.

It looks like they have also retracted most of the original statement too. Probably smart.

The Laser World Council can have any class members on it that the existing members of the council would like to be on it. Seek Article 6 of the ILCA Constitution...

6. World Council

(1) The Association shall be governed by the World Council comprised of the Chairman of each Regional Executive Committee from time to time holding office, the immediate Past President of the World Council, the Executive Secretary, the two appointed members of the Advisory Council, and such additional officers to be appointed by the Council for such term as it may from time to time determine. Each officer shall be a member of the Association.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
26 minutes ago, lemonpepper said:

I thought the whole point of being here was to make assertions that boost our self esteem. Maybe I missed the memo that we have to have data for every statement. 

Cheating is using unfair means to try to win. I never said that free riders are cheaters. 

cheating is often used to mean taking something of value..... Ie ... he cheated me on that deal.   or he is cheating the system... 

So OK.... semantics....  but you did not mean to compliment sailors who don't pay dues for something they don't value and you can't substantiate the indirect value for them.

since you can't offer much support on the value/  $$$$  part of the game.. more the point....   what is a free rider?....

A free rider would be a long time boat owner... club racer who fronts up at championship event... pays the current dues. and regatta fee at the door.      You could argue they were free riding on the system that makes championships available year after year..   Obviously, you don't think this is fair or appropriate.

Now, consider your options to prevent that from happening.... you would have to collect current dues,   current late fees,   and finally past dues in addition to registration fees.   (There is a good reason that most Organizing Authorities don't want anything to do with your class membership rules)   Alternatively..... you could publicly shame these sailors... by calling them out at registration.... (Welcome Johnny who joined the class after three years of competing locally, our checking account thanks you....)  or... you could take them outside and beat the  cash out of them......   Chances are.... you don't grow the class this way.   The free rider notion is a rat hole.

The other way to think about it... is....   class membership gets you a discount on the regatta entry fee.     Now .... you don't have to go down the free rider rat hole and things are priced properly.... (I seem to remember the 505 class saying that most of their class membership dues are collected at championship registration)

Sorry about the rant..  Seems like I am surrounded by simple answers to complex questions that are just half assed.  .. I am fed up with simple minded answers  (class membership is valuable to rank and file club racers for their boat resale value) without and support or critical thinking involved.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, tillerman said:

A great question.

Why, in this day and age, do we need to join class associations?

Didn't class associations originate in the days when the only means of communication between sailors with a common interest in any particular sailboat was the class newsletter? This newsletter was on paper and was typically mailed once a quarter. It was a top-down communication, edited by some central authority, full of news several months old etc. etc. But it was the main way that people could say, "Hey we are having a regatta at Ploppagoolagoop Yacht Club on June 1st - come and join us." In fact getting a copy of that newsletter with the list of upcoming regattas was the main - maybe only - reason that local club sailors joined the class.

Now that we have emails and websites and social media and Sailing Anarchy, we have a multitude of free ways to communicate with other sailors who own the same sailboat as us. Why on earth do we need to join a class association at all?

I joined the class so my dues will support the ILCA lawsuit.  Oh and I still get the quarterly "Laser Sailor" publication.  Oh and we have a class website which I put our District regatta info on.  Oh and the class reimburses my for District even expenses, (special trophy's, annual mailers, and the like).  Oh and we have folks at the class office who handle all of the above stuff.  Oh and we get the annual class rules booklet.  I do miss the hull sticker though.  It was cool to see hulls that had 10 years or more of those lined up on it.  I'm sure there are other reasons, but those top my list. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
29 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I joined the class so my dues will support the ILCA lawsuit.  Oh and I still get the quarterly "Laser Sailor" publication.  Oh and we have a class website which I put our District regatta info on.  Oh and the class reimburses my for District even expenses, (special trophy's, annual mailers, and the like).  Oh and we have folks at the class office who handle all of the above stuff.  Oh and we get the annual class rules booklet.  I do miss the hull sticker though.  It was cool to see hulls that had 10 years or more of those lined up on it.  I'm sure there are other reasons, but those top my list. 

They stopped issuing hull stickers???

What were they thinking???

Oh, the humanity!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Tcatman said:

cheating is often used to mean taking something of value..... Ie ... he cheated me on that deal.   or he is cheating the system... 

So OK.... semantics....  but you did not mean to compliment sailors who don't pay dues for something they don't value and you can't substantiate the indirect value for them.

since you can't offer much support on the value/  $$$$  part of the game.. more the point....   what is a free rider?....

A free rider would be a long time boat owner... club racer who fronts up at championship event... pays the current dues. and regatta fee at the door.      You could argue they were free riding on the system that makes championships available year after year..   Obviously, you don't think this is fair or appropriate.

Now, consider your options to prevent that from happening.... you would have to collect current dues,   current late fees,   and finally past dues in addition to registration fees.   (There is a good reason that most Organizing Authorities don't want anything to do with your class membership rules)   Alternatively..... you could publicly shame these sailors... by calling them out at registration.... (Welcome Johnny who joined the class after three years of competing locally, our checking account thanks you....)  or... you could take them outside and beat the  cash out of them......   Chances are.... you don't grow the class this way.   The free rider notion is a rat hole.

The other way to think about it... is....   class membership gets you a discount on the regatta entry fee.     Now .... you don't have to go down the free rider rat hole and things are priced properly.... (I seem to remember the 505 class saying that most of their class membership dues are collected at championship registration)

Sorry about the rant..  Seems like I am surrounded by simple answers to complex questions that are just half assed.  .. I am fed up with simple minded answers  (class membership is valuable to rank and file club racers for their boat resale value) without and support or critical thinking involved.

 

 

 

What would you call a regatta that uses the trademarked Laser name but allows competitors to use illegal "practice" parts and sails 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I joined the class so my dues will support the ILCA lawsuit.  Oh and I still get the quarterly "Laser Sailor" publication.  Oh and we have a class website which I put our District regatta info on.  Oh and the class reimburses my for District even expenses, (special trophy's, annual mailers, and the like).  Oh and we have folks at the class office who handle all of the above stuff.  Oh and we get the annual class rules booklet.  I do miss the hull sticker though.  It was cool to see hulls that had 10 years or more of those lined up on it.  I'm sure there are other reasons, but those top my list. 

If someone who plans on racing, refuses to join and support the class they should take up another sport. These are not toys they are race boats

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

They are both.

And they are sometimes cruising boats, swim platforms, and even planters

It appears this ILCA vs LP thing is about a whole lot of issues most of which involve control. 

Early this century I discovered my enjoyment of sailboat Racing was being destroyed by my interactions with those who are compelled to be in charge.

I have found it is way way way way way more fun to just invite as many folks as I can contact and then go out and play. 

 Please come to Austin Easter Weekend and bring your Laser. If you can’t find a place that stocks and sells Lasers, maybe you should buy yourself an AERO. Either boat is welcome. I will make certain there is plenty of food on shore and Barry  ( shown sailing in this fifteen year old photo) will run great races. 

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

 

AC9BD305-F33D-4D06-95E1-2123D8434BDC.jpeg

  • Like 3
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

They are both.

And they are sometimes cruising boats, swim platforms, and even planters

It appears this ILCA vs LP thing is about a whole lot of issues most of which involve control. 

Early this century I discovered my enjoyment of sailboat Racing was being destroyed by my interactions with those who are compelled to be in charge.

I have found it is way way way way way more fun to just invite as many folks as I can contact and then go out and play. 

 Please come to Austin Easter Weekend and bring your Laser. If you can’t find a place that stocks and sells Lasers, maybe you should buy yourself an AERO. Either boat is welcome. I will make certain there is plenty of food on shore and Barry  ( shown sailing in this fifteen year old photo) will run great races. 

https://americasfavoriteboatshop.com/36th-easter-laser-regatta

 

AC9BD305-F33D-4D06-95E1-2123D8434BDC.jpeg

Dude you have mellowed. And are wise beyond your years. Wish I could be there and meet you in person. Maybe post retirement. Make the Easter regatta my “one last Laser race” and enjoy a beer with the Gouv. Let the control freak, lawyers and money grabber fight Gouv. Just sail!!

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Posted (edited)
Quote

What would you call a regatta that uses the trademarked Laser name but allows competitors to use illegal "practice" parts and sails 

Probably the wrong guy to ask... since I HATE these kind of classes (Laser... Hobie 16s etc)    So.... IMO.... I ask...  Illegal....  or unfair parts and sails?

Are you sailing to compete? then the illegal equipment is an issue for you... if you are racing to sail... then you only want a fair playing field. 

What do I call the regatta? The event title and NOR should make that clear....    Me thinks... Gouv's Easter Regatta is a racing event to go sail....   I doubt you get protested for a "practice" part.  Miami OCR's best be using class legal parts.

I completely support your position of doing nothing to undermine the competition...so... no surprises...set expectations for the event and then deliver....I have a broader standard here...{Fair)   I just would stay away from  calling racers who go to sail  without class membership free riders"  .... better to sell the class magazine, boat stickers, t shirts, and programs that grow sailing for youth and newbies as a reason to join the class.... 

Final thought... WHY some people think  the idea that I support "pay your class dues and support world championships" is persuasive is beyond me..   As a club sailor, I don't want to contribute  ANYTHING from my dues towards running a national champ that I am not attending.  You should  pay for your own games...   If you need to fly in international judges.... great!.... bill it to the event... not the class which is asking me to kick in a few bucks towards the world champs..   YMMV.

Clean's point about  a viable class association that manages the relationship with the builder is the most compelling reason to pay up.

 

Edited by Tcatman
addition

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, VWAP said:

What would you call a regatta that uses the trademarked Laser name but allows competitors to use illegal "practice" parts and sails 

a good idea

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, VWAP said:

What would you call a regatta that uses the trademarked Laser name but allows competitors to use illegal "practice" parts and sails 

Intensity Sails Grass Roots Galactic Championship for Lasers, Boats Formerly Known as Lasers, Torches and Prisms

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, VWAP said:

If someone who plans on racing, refuses to join and support the class they should take up another sport. These are not toys they are race boats

If they are race boats, why would it be a good idea to potentially drive away club-level racers by giving them another (albeit minor) bit of paperwork and cash to hand over?  The clubs also support the sport, so should the class take actions that may harm the club fleets? Club officials rarely seem to enjoy chasing sailors to pay class dues, so why lay that ask upon volunteers who are already doing their bit and more? 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Curious said:

If they are race boats, why would it be a good idea to potentially drive away club-level racers by giving them another (albeit minor) bit of paperwork and cash to hand over?  The clubs also support the sport, so should the class take actions that may harm the club fleets? Club officials rarely seem to enjoy chasing sailors to pay class dues, so why lay that ask upon volunteers who are already doing their bit and more? 

 

Ummm, Not sure where anyone suggested the OA collect class dues. You should read part 1 of the RRS,   Racing Rules of Sailing. Reminde ,  we are a self policing sport 

You also might look at all of RRS rule 78

Here is a link  to the RRS for you

http://www.sailing.org/documents/racingrules/

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Odds are I have personally collected class dues from more people than the sum of everyone else who has commented in this thread. 

When I have done so I have been able to explain to each one of those players EXACTLY how that money would be spent and why it was beneficial TO THAT PERSON to part with the funds. 

      If you cannot make that case to each sailor, I believe the class needs to be fixed. 

  • Like 2
  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, VWAP said:

Ummm, Not sure where anyone suggested the OA collect class dues. You should read part 1 of the RRS,   Racing Rules of Sailing. Reminde ,  we are a self policing sport 

You also might look at all of RRS rule 78

Here is a link  to the RRS for you

http://www.sailing.org/documents/racingrules/

I know RRS 78. It requires boats to follow class rules. But the relevant Laser class rule, (Pt 1 R9) only requires class membership when competing in class "sanctioned events". If it's not a "class sanctioned" event but is only a normal club race or regatta, no membership is required. There is therefore no breach of RRS 78 if one is not a class member when one is only doing normal club races or other non-sanctioned events.

We are a self policing sport so people should read the rules.

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
57 minutes ago, Curious said:

But the relevant Laser class rule, (Pt 1 R9) only requires class membership when competing in class "sanctioned events". If it's not a "class sanctioned" event but is only a normal club race or regatta, no membership is required.

Not quite:

The relevant ILCA Rule 9 reads, 'No person is permitted to race a Laser in any Fleet, InterFleet, District, or other sanctioned event unless at least one member of the crew is a current member' of ILCA. As a 'Fleet' consists of six or more Laser sailors who sail together, either at a club as as part of some other organisation, the rule therefore covers club racing, open meetings (i.e. InterFleet) and national events, not just events run by, or on behalf of, the Laser Association.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

No way at all is that the correct reading of the situation. "Fleet" capitalised in that way must refer to an official Fleet; that is, one of sailors who are ALREADY members and who apply for and are granted a Fleet charter under the ILCA Constitution Pt 9. A Fleet "may be granted a charter upon application...by 6 or more members of the Association...".  Note that the Constitution uses the word MAY, which is permissive and not mandatory. Note also that the formation of a fleet requires "a charter" which is only granted "upon application". Furthermore the sailors must be members of ILCA. If the sailors are not members of the Association, there can be no Fleet charter granted, therefore it's not a Fleet.

The creation of a fleet is therefore merely only a possibility, after application, open ONLY to members. It is not an automatic occurrence whenever Lasers, and even ILCA members, sail together.  If the Fleet is granted a charter it becomes a "sanctioned event".

A "Fleet" is not created whenever six Laser sailors sail or race together. Otherwise it would lead to the ludicrous situation where five Lasers could legally sail in a mixed fleet beer can race, but that the sailors would find themselves breaking the class and ISAF rules if a sixth Laser entered without their knowledge. It would mean that sailing school students and people at a resort would be expected to join ILCA if six hire boats are on the water at the same time. It would also mean that every such group would have to elect a Fleet Captain annually and that person would be responsible for ensuring that class rules are followed. There is no way that a group of boat hirers or people who do twilight races can be given that obligation.

I'd also warrant that any class rule that said that any bunch of six people who raced Lasers at a club had to be class members would be illegal under various restrictive practices legislation. It is simply ludicrous to claim that any bunch of people can impose a legal requirement that purchasers of equipment be FORCED to join an association merely because they want to sail together, and it is simply not the correct reading of the Constitution.

 


 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

There's a sort of inverse catch 22 in RRS78. If a boat is not maintained as a Laser - ie Intensity parts - it ceases to be a Laser and is not subject to Laser class rules in RRS78 (this is an opinion I got from the RYA rules advisory service). And any organisation is permitted to run races for Lasers and not quite Lasers if they so desire.  Logically that suggests the boat also ceases to be a Laser if the sailor isn't an ILCA member.

As for class membership, you are exaggerating. It only applies to class association sanctioned events. As a club we choose to make our Laser Open meeting a UKLA sanctioned event (thus ILCA eventually), so we don't permit fake sails etc, and I suppose we theoretically require UKLA membership, although its not checked. Our club class racing, by contrast, has not been sanctioned by UKLA, and we allow both Lasers and not quite Lasers to race together.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 4/5/2019 at 9:27 AM, MR.CLEAN said:

Anyone who has been watching the class for a decade or longer knows this isn't an implosion at all Wess, unless you have other information that we havent' seen here.

The implosion happened years ago when the RI facilitiy closed and the litigation got serious, with the fallout shrinking the class over the past few years like nothing before ever has. Knowing LP owner's history quite well and having read almost every piece of litigation he has been involved in, ILCA's move is actually their last big chance at self-rescue.  

The fact that LP's most closely-knit dealers are coming out against this is what anyone would have expected.  They are also in the only area in the world that hasn't had the catastrophic supply problems that everywhere else has.  For Olympians and juniors from places like Chile and Argentina and Canada, that matters a lot.

I can't believe we haven't seen a lawsuit yet frankly.  You'd think Rastegar's lawyers would be quicker!

 

 

 

Clean and I have agreed on much of our commentary on various phases of the Laser dispute and litigation .....but I disagree here.

This is a new sequel in the horror genre of the Laser Class and it is the scariest yet.

Up until now the Class Association has been a unified voice of reason in the swirling dispute between builders.  The cognoscenti of the Laser dispute have taken a macabre pleasure in following the blow by blow chapters of the million dollar litigation over the hundred thousand dollar trade mark but the average Laser sailor has been able to ignore it if he or she chooses.  If you dont like horror movies, you can just go sailing and curl up in the evening afterwards and just watch a RomCom, while Wess, IPL, Tiller Clean etc turn on the SA forums to watch and comment on the bloodbath....confident in the knowledge that the Class Association has got your back and is taking care of the average Laser sailor.

What has changed is that , for the first time, the Laser Class Association appears to be splintering.

  •  Up until now, the ILCA has done its best to ensure that the warring builders do not interrupt supply
  • Now the ILCA has actually terminated a builder without having a replacement signed up.  At first we could assume it was a negotiating move.
  • Until we hear that the regions within the ILCA did not all agree with the decision, notably one of the largest regional and a most affected region
  • So we are faced with builder fighting builder and regional class fighting regional class......
  • All this in the lead up to deciding if the Laser should remain the Olympic single handed dinghy?  Honestly, if you were WS, would you want to risk an event  being hosted in a boat where all hell has just broken out between builders and within the class association.  

This qualifies as an implosion in my book. The Laser Class has been circling the worm hole for some time now...but they just decided to jump in ......and see how they emerge the other side.  The saga has moved from an obscure sailing streaming channel to "Trending on Netflix"

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
31 minutes ago, IPLore said:

This is a new sequel in the horror genre of the Laser Class and it is the scariest yet.

Up until now the Class Association has been a unified voice of reason in the swirling dispute between builders.  The cognoscenti of the Laser dispute have taken a macabre pleasure in following the blow by blow chapters of the million dollar litigation over the hundred thousand dollar trade mark but the average Laser sailor has been able to ignore it if he or she chooses.  If you dont like horror movies, you can just go sailing and curl up in the evening afterwards and just watch a RomCom, while Wess, IPL, Tiller Clean etc turn on the SA forums to watch and comment on the bloodbath....confident in the knowledge that the Class Association has got your back and is taking care of the average Laser sailor.

What has changed is that , for the first time, the Laser Class Association appears to be splintering.

  •  Up until now, the ILCA has done its best to ensure that the warring builders do not interrupt supply
  • Now the ILCA has actually terminated a builder without having a replacement signed up.  At first we could assume it was a negotiating move.
  • Until we hear that the regions within the ILCA did not all agree with the decision, notably one of the largest regional and a most affected region
  • So we are faced with builder fighting builder and regional class fighting regional class......
  • All this in the lead up to deciding if the Laser should remain the Olympic single handed dinghy?  Honestly, if you were WS, would you want to risk an event  being hosted in a boat where all hell has just broken out between builders and within the class association.  

This qualifies as an implosion in my book. The Laser Class has been circling the worm hole for some time now...but they just decided to jump in ......and see how they emerge the other side.  The saga has moved from an obscure sailing streaming channel to "Trending on Netflix"

A sad day indeed.

Through all the Kirby lawsuits saga I was (here and elsewhere) a staunch supporter of the class as being the only party which was actually on the side of the sailors.

Now we have different factions of the sailor representatives on the ILCA World Council disagreeing in public, not only on what their policy should be, but even on the facts of the case - e.g. what was the real reason for ending the class's approval of Laser Performance as a Laser builder.

I am sure there must have been many differences of opinion aired behind closed doors within the World Council through all the turmoil of the last 10 years, but I can't recall any situation quite like this.

It's almost as bad as Brexit.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, tillerman said:



It's almost as bad as Brexit.

Maybe they are related.

Rasty has posted vigorous opposition to Brexit on the LP FB page.

Rees Mogg was recently seen leaving Tracy Usher's office.

The plot thickens :ph34r:

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

ILCA just posted a list of FAQs relevant to this thread:

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/04/06/faq-6-april-2019/


Extract from FAQ...

Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?

A:  No.  In order to avoid trade mark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I gotta hand it to the ILCA......they are playing hardball.

 

Q: Can the terminated European builder be reapproved as a class-legal manufacturer?

A: Yes, but since the agreement with the former European builder has been terminated, it would need to enter into new arrangements with ILCA and the remaining parties to the agreement.  Any reapproval would be under the same FRAND terms as will apply to all other builders.

Q: The European class organization published a request to mediate some kind of negotiation between ILCA and the terminated builder.  Will that happen?  

A:  ILCA fully understands and appreciates the importance of the European region, which represents 61% of the class members worldwide, and the role the former European builder played in that region.  ILCA will continue to cooperate with all relevant stakeholders and to protect the best interest of our members and our sport. ILCA remains open to participate in any reasonable negotiations and would look forward to engaging in a constructive dialogue to explore reapproval.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

And they got their ducks all lined up in a row before pushing the red button:

Q:  Is World Sailing aware of these changes?

A: Yes. ILCA has kept World Sailing fully informed during this process and we continue to work in close cooperation with the governing body of our sport.

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yup and not directly stated but strongly implied that the other existing builders are agreeing to enter into the same FRAND that LPE would not. Game over. Bye bye LPE. Don’t think I am going to miss ya...

Unless of course you come back offering more affordable and longer lasting Laser hulls and rigs als the practice sails. Then I will love ya. 

Think the price of boats for whatever the new boat is called just went up considerably. What are the odds it’s called the Torch and we witness the return of the grey haired one. That would beat all. It’s certainly possible from legal standpoint. 

Typed while Otto steers us along on a great sailing day on the Chesapeake. This Darm and Stormy tastes good!!!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I hope they start offering T-shirts with the new class name.  That would be nice.  Belts, too.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Interesting what turns up with some trademark searches. Anyone who actually understands this stuff may like to search further, or explain what I've found.

A company called Weather Helm Inc registered the ILCA trademark last year in the US. 

The Attorneys attached to that registration are the same Attorneys attached to ILCA's registration of the "ILCA Standard" trademark around the same time, and their application to register "4.7" a couple of years ago (Velum have a very similar application). So not a stretch to think that ILCA and Weather Helm Inc are closely related.

Weather Helm Inc also registered another trademark late last year, for the purposes of sailing vessels, equipment, organising sailing events etc. 

If you wanted a new class name that continues the Laser theme, and your class president was a physicist, what would you choose?

Anyone planning on sailing their Gamma dinghy this weekend?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The only trademark I can find for ILCA in the US is for the International Lactation Consultant Association!

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, GBR2083 said:

Links don’t work

Looks like the search sessions expire after a while. You can do the search yourself here.

Better still, visit www.gammaclass.org. You'll never guess what site it redirects to....

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?
A:  No.  In order to avoid trade mark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules.  ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 minutes ago, EdS said:

Q: Will boats from the newly-named builders be sold under the LASER brand?
A:  No.  In order to avoid trade mark issues and to comply with the requirements of European competition law, all current and future ILCA-approved builders will sell boats under a new brand name. ILCA and the current approved builders are finalizing the intellectual property details for the new brand, including fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory (FRAND) licensing rules.  ILCA expects to announce the new brand name in the next four weeks.

Too late, I've already announced the new name - the Gamma Class. Sorry ILCA.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, redstar said:

Too late, I've already announced the new name - the Gamma Class. Sorry ILCA.

Already used by Gul for sailing clothing, and ISTR it was also a now discontinued Proctor Metal mast. Gamma dinghy pulls up 500K results on google, and gamma sail 5M, so it won't be a smart choice. Of course that may not stop them choosing it.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This is like when my company merged with another company a few years ago and they had to choose a new name.  What they came up with was meaningless gibberish that nobody likes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

On the other hand LPE is owned by Full Moon Holdings Ltd, which is itself owned by Sina Holdco Ltd, whose bank balance is much healthier.  The only person with “significant control” of Sina is Sima Rastegar, resident of tax free Monte Carlo where she is president of the  Monaco Association of Family Offices.  So I suspect there is sufficient money to keep LPE going if she wants to.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Sima is a woman and presumably is Farzad Rastegar’s sister, cousin or estranged wife (she seems to have a partner called Patrick). Farzad owns Macaren buggies amongst other interests and was heavily involved in round as of this battle as he apparent owns the companies that hold the rights to the Laser logo and name, at least in some territories.  Those accounts no more mean LPE is bankrupt than Amazon’s do.  It is just a way of reducing the tax burden. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Some speculation on my part, which I'm known to do and never turns out right.

1. Is this the reason why at the sea trials the Lasers was "presented by ILCA" and not a builder, namely LPE?  Maybe LPE made their own bid which wasn't shortlisted?

2.  I'm betting this action was deliberately taken between the sea trials and the final selection.

3. Is WS on board with the ILCA's actions?  My impression is yes.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

In the intergalactic *ASER championship a few years from now, we will have:

  • Pre (April) 2019 Lasers from LP (with the ILCA/WS sticker); still Class-legal
  • Class-legal Lasers built by the Japanese and Australian manufacturers, unless LP stops licensing the Laser trademark
  • Non Class-legal Lasers made by LP after mid April 2019 (no ILCA/World Sailing sticker)
  • Legal *ASERs (or Gammas or Torches) made by, as yet to be appointed, ILCA approved manufacturers

I would hate to write the NOR or SIs for this regatta!

PS: The idea of having a Prism Class covering all Laser-like boats doesn't sound so alien anymore...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I suspect that if the two associations  do eventuate the animosity will be enough that each will ban anyone who sails or enrolls with the other. No likelihood of joint regattas above local levels. The obvious divison will be Europe loyal to LPE and Oceania loyal to their builders and ILCA. The Americas can decide which team to back. Chaos.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
21 hours ago, redstar said:

Looks like the search sessions expire after a while. You can do the search yourself here.

Better still, visit www.gammaclass.org. You'll never guess what site it redirects to....

Now displaying only a blank page.

 Superficially, (and as IPLore earlier stated) it seems the root of the current fallout is the disagreement over what LPE refers to as "The 1998 agreement", which grants LPE rights to the Laser in Europe, the Americas and many other places.

LPE claim that ILCA won't even meet them to discuss renewal.

Anyone know why?

  It's a pretty bald statement and suggests bad faith on ILCAs part. Is the agreement contrary to the "FRAND" principle?  What is actually broken at the moment that dropping LPE will fix? What is it that ILCA is trying to achieve?

Cheers,

              W.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Three points that I doubt will make me friends around here but hey. 

@Gouvernail after telling us, repeatedly, how terrible it is, I thought you'd agree that Something Must Be Done so ilca is shooting for something. And it's the same thing you seemed to be proposing: open up the manufacturing options for lasers.

ILCA seem to have done their homework, with WS, trademarks, etc. When an organization is disorganized, we give them crap. When they've clearly planned and start executing on a plan, I'd give them credit. I think someone on the other thread started with "conspiracy". What bs.

There's a catch-22 with organizations that might try to represent everyone in a space ("laser sailors") yet inevitably represent those who signed up and voted. If they aren't representing you... sign up and vote, volunteer and generally participate. Even if  "just" to vote the pigs out. Just like the race committee in your local club, or Brexit: it's easy to say what you're against, hard to take a stance towards what to do. 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
11 hours ago, Phil S said:

I suspect that if the two associations  do eventuate the animosity will be enough that each will ban anyone who sails or enrolls with the other.

Won't be allowed under WS rules. Only WS yields the ban hammer.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

Now displaying only a blank page.

 

58d17676-26ae-4f4f-9cbc-b98f3cb35d87.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
15 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

If you have a better word for a group of people making plans please offer it.

You have it right there: planning :-) -- there's a few synonyms but that one works well. 

Following that same topic, it seems like they've planned a few things. We don't know what we don't know, but they seem to have crossed more Ts and dotted more Is than LP. We can always be concerned, but... aren't those details encouraging?

BTW, I am no jackass, no troll, and not part of any conspiracy trying to tar you or anyone. I'm a sailor, and you can see my many posts and videos about sailing, breaking and fixing boats. Why do you get so personal, so quick?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 hours ago, torrid said:

Some speculation on my part, which I'm known to do and never turns out right.

1. Is this the reason why at the sea trials the Lasers was "presented by ILCA" and not a builder, namely LPE?  Maybe LPE made their own bid which wasn't shortlisted?

2.  I'm betting this action was deliberately taken between the sea trials and the final selection.

3. Is WS on board with the ILCA's actions?  My impression is yes.

Yea, rare I disagree with @IPLorebut I don't think there is any negotiation here. This ain't a tactic.  This is the end game IMHO.  LPE is gone for good from the ILCA class or whatever they will reform as (IGCA??).

@WGWarburton - you ask what is ILCA trying to achieve... I don't speak for them but this appears to be designed to maximize their chances of remaining an Olympic class and aligned with the interests of high level Laser sailors (ie those with Olympic aspirations). 

So... "What does ILCA want?"  Olympic status, FRAND manufacturers, and manufacturer support including supplied boats at high level events.  Period.  I intend or imply no judgement with that statement.  Even if they succeed in ditching LPE, and securing FRAND mfg agreements, I am guessing the Olympic status is 60:40 yes at best.  Lose that and I wonder if the downside is worth it. 

What is the downside?  I would be willing to bet that the price of whatever the Laser will be (Gamma?) is about to increase significantly for EU and NA sailors.  For those high level club sailors that do events that require class membership (Masters, Championships, etc...) and class legal boats this could hurt the wallet.

Yet to be seen is if LPE keeps making and selling Lasers (they certainly can legally) and starts up a competing class (oddly enough which would be a Laser class) aimed at club and Masters type sailors.  Run that class well and build boats to a spec that keeps the old and new Lasers equal in terms of on the water performance but makes them last longer and cost less and I would bet they could sell a lot.  I always hope Kirby was going to do that with the Torch but... :(

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
28 minutes ago, Wess said:

...

@WGWarburton - you ask what is ILCA trying to achieve... I don't speak for them but this appears to be designed to maximize their chances of remaining an Olympic class and aligned with the interests of high level Laser sailors (ie those with Olympic aspirations). 

So... "What does ILCA want?"  Olympic status, FRAND manufacturers, and manufacturer support including supplied boats at high level events.  Period.  I intend or imply no judgement with that statement.  Even if they succeed in ditching LPE, and securing FRAND mfg agreements, I am guessing the Olympic status is 60:40 yes at best.  ...

Hmm, that seems a reasonable take on it... though I would have thought a public fallout with their biggest builder would harm rather than boost their Olympic aspirations. I must admit that my impression is that it is (or was?) theirs to lose, as the alternatives at the recent trials don't seem to have a significantly better offer. 

 Maybe this tactic will get them better access to boats for events in the future but from what I'm hearing at the moment they are up against it for this year's Youth Worlds... and AFAIK they haven't even been challenged by LPE on the legality of that situation, yet, which seems a likely step, if my understanding of the dispute is correct...

So... maybe I need to try and understand the other side of the coin... if that's what ILCA want, why are LPE the wrong people to get it from? According to LPE, ILCA are not even talking to them..

Cheers,

               W.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites