Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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Just to be clear.

the question on the table was:

What would LP use as reason for a lawsuit?

I presented one possible answer.

Any reasonably creative person could come up with a hundred reasons. 

If you ask me for “Things a person can do with a brick” my list will only be limited by the time limit for the response and my willingness to continue answering.

One use for a brick might be to turn off my cell phone. Certainly I am not suggesting that use is reasonable or a use for which  I advocate.

This thread is polluted with dozens if not hundreds of posts written by authors who seem entirely unwilling and/ or disinterested in comprehending  and /or  giving value to the motives of the “other side.”

When asked to speculate about those motivations I offered a possibility. I thought my response might help us understand one another. 

UNDERSTANDING THE OTHER SIDE IS NOT TREASON!!!

This isn’t a sailboat race. Having only one winner is not a reasonable goal. 

Consider this:

If our collective actions cause a “painful” result for ANYONE involved, it is reasonable to believe others will consider that result as a possibility before playing that “anyone’s” role for us in the future.

just in case the previous paragraph wasn’t clear:

For those of us to whom it is apparent Tracy or Eric or Jean Luc or Andy or Bill Crane or Farzad or Alexandra or any Laser Sailor has been treated like shit,  it is going to be a little less likely we would willingly serve in one of those positions any of them currently fill. 

 As we are incapable of offering great riches as a reward, everyone who serves the Laser game at any position from seamstress in Sri Lanka to PRO for our next race is largely compensated with appreciation. 

Why don’t we complain about RC work??

**That Volunteer might say, “Nobody with a brain in his head would do RC for those assholes.”

There are a myriad of reasons NOT to invest time and money in the Laser building business. We cannot afford to add “they treat their builders  like shit” to the list. 

If we get it 100% right, five years from now,  EVERYBODY named in my list above will say , “I sure do like how we handled things in 2019.”

How can we get a reliable supply of toys in the Americas? 

( I am not being NA centrist. I simply don’t give a shit about the Olympics. ) 

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10 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Which ads more to the question:  "Exactly WHY do we want LP and NOT our class in control of our destiny?"

NOBODY has ever been in control.  The formula has always been builders want to build and sell boats. Sailors want to buy and sail those boats. 

 

There is nothing about anybody being “in charge” that does anybody any good. 

In fact, for the sake of the whole Laser phenomenon, anybody who wants to be in charge needs to be told to fuck off. 

To that end:

The removal of the Brand name is exactly the “fuck off” mentioned in the previous sentence .

For the last fifty years EVERYBODY has used the one word to benefit the game. We used it to guarantee one design. We used it to get visibility. We used it as a brand name to allow investment in manufacturing and inventory. We used it to do whatever we damn well pleased to put butts in boats. 

Ownership of the brand never really mattered. No one involved ever used the brand ownership to control anything. 

The opinion of the ILCA is ownership of the brand is now being used by one party for reasons other than putting butts on boats. 

For that reason ILCA wants to unhook from the brand. The brand is only one word. EVERYBODY has the same butts on boats goal. Nobody has any valid reason to be in control.

Note: World Sailing seems to be trying to get control. I feel another “fuck off” is way overdue.  

 

 

 

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22 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

For those of us to whom it is apparent Tracy or Eric or Jean Luc or Andy or Bill Crane or Farzad or Alexandra or any Laser Sailor has been treated like shit,  it is going to be a little less likely we would willingly serve in one of those positions any of them currently fill. 

There are a myriad of reasons NOT to invest time and money in the Laser building business. We cannot afford to add “they treat their builders  like shit” to the list. 

Treat the builders and Farzad like shit?  I totally get the others who are unpaid volunteers and only trying to represent the interests of the class and it's future, (we hope).  Other than LP/Farzad, (one in the same and compensated for services provided) what other builder has been treated like shit?

Given the lack of services and essential exit from a significant portion of the Laser market in which LP controls can one not understand why many would be extremely pissed off at these guys?  Furthermore, given this long history of poor service how can anyone think it's going to magically turn around and become wonderful?

Clearly LP has little interest in the NA market.  So, agree to what is required by WS and allow for, (hopefully) a builder in the NA.  This market does nothing for LP now so what's the downside for them in letting it go?  They can trip along their merry way and keep Europe happy by focusing on that market and kick the "ugly American's" to the curb.

The ball is in his court.  Fortunately or unfortunately we are tied to the Olympics now and we will live or die from that, (as will Laser production for LP at least in the near term) until the class has time to settle and stabilize from this upheaval.

The only way we can get time to heal and rebuild is to stay in the Olympics until at least 2024.  

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@RobbieB  please go back and read my post again before you delete your reply. 

I will also offer this clarification:

 

It doesn’t matter whether we treat anyone like shit. It matters whether the perception is “we treat people like shit.”

If Farzad thinks we totally  fucked him, you can bet your sweet ass he will bitch. Other potential builders will hear that bitching. Other potential builders may say, “That would NEVER happen to me.”

Other potential realistic businessmen builders  would PROBABLY say, “I better charge a bit more and keep a huge reserve for when those assholes turn on me.”

My point is absolutely NOT to take sides. I simply want an enthusiastic supportive builder of sailing toys who works tirelessly to put butts on boats.

We need to do our  very best not to create enemies. 

Enemies absolutely will not put butts on boats 

 

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55 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Just to be clear.

the question on the table was:

What would LP use as reason for a lawsuit?

I presented one possible answer.

Any reasonably creative person could come up with a hundred reasons. 

If you ask me for “Things a person can do with a brick” my list will only be limited by the time limit for the response and my willingness to continue answering.

One use for a brick might be to turn off my cell phone. Certainly I am not suggesting that use is reasonable or a use for which  I advocate.

This thread is polluted with dozens if not hundreds of posts written by authors who seem entirely unwilling and/ or disinterested in comprehending  and /or  giving value to the motives of the “other side.”

When asked to speculate about those motivations I offered a possibility. I thought my response might help us understand one another. 

UNDERSTANDING THE OTHER SIDE IS NOT TREASON!!!

This isn’t a sailboat race. Having only one winner is not a reasonable goal. 

Consider this:

If our collective actions cause a “painful” result for ANYONE involved, it is reasonable to believe others will consider that result as a possibility before playing that “anyone’s” role for us in the future.

just in case the previous paragraph wasn’t clear:

For those of us to whom it is apparent Tracy or Eric or Jean Luc or Andy or Bill Crane or Farzad or Alexandra or any Laser Sailor has been treated like shit,  it is going to be a little less likely we would willingly serve in one of those positions any of them currently fill. 

 As we are incapable of offering great riches as a reward, everyone who serves the Laser game at any position from seamstress in Sri Lanka to PRO for our next race is largely compensated with appreciation. 

Why don’t we complain about RC work??

**That Volunteer might say, “Nobody with a brain in his head would do RC for those assholes.”

There are a myriad of reasons NOT to invest time and money in the Laser building business. We cannot afford to add “they treat their builders  like shit” to the list. 

If we get it 100% right, five years from now,  EVERYBODY named in my list above will say , “I sure do like how we handled things in 2019.”

How can we get a reliable supply of toys in the Americas? 

( I am not being NA centrist. I simply don’t give a shit about the Olympics. ) 

 

22 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

NOBODY has ever been in control.  The formula has always been builders want to build and sell boats. Sailors want to buy and sail those boats. 

 

There is nothing about anybody being “in charge” that does anybody any good. 

In fact, for the sake of the whole Laser phenomenon, anybody who wants to be in charge needs to be told to fuck off. 

To that end:

The removal of the Brand name is exactly the “fuck off” mentioned in the previous sentence .

For the last fifty years EVERYBODY has used the one word to benefit the game. We used it to guarantee one design. We used it to get visibility. We used it as a brand name to allow investment in manufacturing and inventory. We used it to do whatever we damn well pleased to put butts in boats. 

Ownership of the brand never really mattered. No one involved ever used the brand ownership to control anything. 

The opinion of the ILCA is ownership of the brand is now being used by one party for reasons other than putting butts on boats. 

For that reason ILCA wants to unhook from the brand. The brand is only one word. EVERYBODY has the same butts on boats goal. Nobody has any valid reason to be in control.

Note: World Sailing seems to be trying to get control. I feel another “fuck off” is way overdue.  

 

 

 

I agree with you but you are spitting into the wind.   They don't get it and don't want to.  While I am really sad about how ILCA has handled this - I don't think they are worse than any of the others I would just have expected them to hold to a more lofty standard - I do agree with Tracy and disagree with you on one thing Gouv.  I really don't think there is much of a market here for new boats.  There just ain't many or any people in the US saying "I would buy a new Laser if only my dealer had one."  Maybe I am wrong but I feel really bad for the class if that is so because post  LPE FRAND world the pricing, quality and supply situation is going to get worse.  And as a hint for those wondering how LPE could and I bet will sue ILCA (if agreement is not reached, the vote passed and ILCA and WS go forward as outlined) just go back a few pages and read what the same folks who called it right the last time said about this time. 

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38 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

( I am not being NA centrist. I simply don’t give a shit about the Olympics. ) 

Have you thought this through?.... or is your position simply reactionary?

You may have 30 years of the bottom up focused class management BUT in the 2020s... I don't know that you can keep any semblance of the current international sailing scene (gold cup level events like Miami OCR's) that look like the present or even remotely like the glory days of the past without Olympics.   Perhaps you can persuade me?

Challenging the assumption that the ILCA must remain 100 % focused on remaining Olympic means that you outline and persuade HOW you see the international and National  scenes playing out over the next 5 to 6 years  (life time of a race boat/ amateur campaign)

Step One... might answer....Why do you think that loosing the top 200 sailors of single handed dinghies in the world will be positive for competition at a regions NA's or at the world level and benefit the rank and file and the highly competitive top of the pecking order kind of sailors?   (IMO, the top amateurs relish this challenge... its the equivalent of taking a shot at Serena Williams and this is a big risk to screw the Olympics position)

Step Two,   given a history of provided boats that are resold in the region of such a yearly major event.....How do the builders/dealers evaluate the risk/profit in the charter and resell of these boats IN THIS ERA of no Olympics and decline in sailboat racing participation?

Step Three,  In the event that the tradition of provided boats craters.... How will the laser culture adapt to bring your own boat to Worlds?

There is some history here to look at...  The Tornado and Elliot  were the last two boats to get cut from the games.   What are those classes like 8 years out?  Can you sell that future to laser rank and file and the top of the pecking order amateur sailors?

Tall order Gouv

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13 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

@RobbieB  please go back and read my post again before you delete your reply. 

I will also offer this clarification:

 

It doesn’t matter whether we treat anyone like shit. It matters whether the perception is “we treat people like shit.”

If Farzad thinks we totally  fucked him, you can bet your sweet ass he will bitch. Other potential builders will hear that bitching. Other potential builders may say, “That would NEVER happen to me.”

Other potential realistic businessmen builders  would PROBABLY say, “I better charge a bit more and keep a huge reserve for when those assholes turn on me.”

My point is absolutely NOT to take sides. I simply want an enthusiastic supportive builder of sailing toys who works tirelessly to put butts on boats.

We need to do our  very best not to create enemies. 

Enemies absolutely will not put butts on boats 

 

I'm not going to delete my reply as I don't share your view on this.

Over the years what builder, (or builders) have we had such a horrible relationship with?  We have 3 current builders.  Only 1 has a beef with ILCA and vice/versa.  66% happy, 33% not but also not properly serving their territory for YEARS.  If we don't get this squared away to meet the WS deadline all points are mute as there will be no need for new builders anyway.

I not in the "It's time to tell everyone to f-off" school.  I'm in the "let's take some control back" school.  As a class, as a group who is voting on an option presented by our volunteer board.  Is this a bit of a rail road job?  Yes, but we're out of time and WS rules to remain an Olympic class requires this.

BTW- what options has the opposition come with?  All I'm seeing is accusations, temper tantrums and 7th grade level propaganda FB posts.  If there's something better that can square this away in 20 days I'm all ears!!!!  

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12 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

As a class, as a group who is voting on an option presented by our volunteer board.  Is this a bit of a rail road job?  Yes, but we're out of time and WS rules to remain an Olympic class requires this.

Kinda surprised you would admit that - the "yes" part - but leave that aside. That sounds to me like an open mind. OK so...

Why should anyone care about remaining an Olympic class.  As I pointed out to Tracey who claimed that means they can "grow" they have not grown it in the 25 years the Laser has been there.  And now - unlike before -  you are forced to bow to WS's BS and abandon SMOD for FRAND.  I offered this first as a question (it was ignored like every other one they don't want to answer) and then as a bet and each and every ILCA rep passed.  So I offer the same bet to you because I believe (and described why many pagers ago over and over) that FRAND as outlined is going to bring the class a world of hurt... 

"I previously offered a friendly handle of rum and ginger beer (like dark and stormies?) bet that if FRAND was implement as envisioned here that boat prices would go up not down, quality problems would increase not decrease, and supply problems would increase not decrease.   I will add to that friendly wager that the growth rate (I was told its actually in decline... no?) does not appreciably improve.  LPE may never have offered you a free boat (did PSA?... KIDDING) but I just offered you free rum! 

[snip]

I would be willing to bet in the scenario described that you folks would end up in court with LPE on the other side."

Do I have some inside info - yes - but so do you.  And its just a friendly little wager and you and I get around each others neck of the woods fairly often I am guessing.

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Why should anyone care about remaining an Olympic class. 

individual sailors may not be as invested in olympic sailing. Most of us are club level racers who want to enjoy our boats with likeminded people, but, as has been addressed many times in this thread, the Olympics DO matter on a structural/development level. For the people who run the class, it's vitally important to keep a strong development pathway to high level sailing that includes the laser. People who are in positions that worry about structural growth are telling you that it matters. And you respond with with an assertion that you know better. Why don't you take over? Put yourself into a position that has meaningful clout for the direction of the class since you have a better idea of how to run it than all the people telling you what they are actually trying to do to help the class. enough of the armchair quarterbacking.

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

Kinda surprised you would admit that - the "yes" part - but leave that aside. That sounds to me like an open mind. OK so...

Why should anyone care about remaining an Olympic class.  As I pointed out to Tracey who claimed that means they can "grow" they have not grown it in the 25 years the Laser has been there.  And now - unlike before -  you are forced to bow to WS's BS and abandon SMOD for FRAND.  I offered this first as a question (it was ignored like every other one they don't want to answer) and then as a bet and each and every ILCA rep passed.  So I offer the same bet to you because I believe (and described why many pagers ago over and over) that FRAND as outlined is going to bring the class a world of hurt... 

"I previously offered a friendly handle of rum and ginger beer (like dark and stormies?) bet that if FRAND was implement as envisioned here that boat prices would go up not down, quality problems would increase not decrease, and supply problems would increase not decrease.   I will add to that friendly wager that the growth rate (I was told its actually in decline... no?) does not appreciably improve.  LPE may never have offered you a free boat (did PSA?... KIDDING) but I just offered you free rum! 

[snip]

I would be willing to bet in the scenario described that you folks would end up in court with LPE on the other side."

Do I have some inside info - yes - but so do you.  And its just a friendly little wager and you and I get around each others neck of the woods fairly often I am guessing.

Yep- but here we are in the 12th hour.  I've not seen anything better come by and from all indications nothing is going to.  So I'm hitching my wagon up to this horse who may get me home or may be old/tired and die after 3 steps....Supply issues here in the US absolutely suck period.  I can't see how any new model could be worse.

Frankly I like the way the change proposal is written.  Hell, if LP steps up their game and there's a sudden influx of new boat orders they could very well be on the receiving side of those orders.  I'd take a boat from them assuming they are playing nice.

Currently the class growth rate is going the wrong way in the US.  The last 2 years has been a decent downturn.  I say it's due to poor supply, support and dealers quitting.   Legal wrangling hasn't helped either.  At times I've felt like ILCA wasn't doing anything but taking lip service from LP, "Oh, things are going to improve.  We promise...yeah right..." Staying the current course is not going to reverse that.  

However this ends up I'd wager there's a 90% chance LPE goes to court, but outside of spite I honestly can't understand why... 

Wish you were a class member Wess.  Wish many of the posters on this thread were and would vote either way just so long as a registered voice is heard.  For me it's like listening to people bitch about who's president.  "Well, did you vote" …"No"... Then you can't complain because you chose NOT to use your voice when/where it counted.

Either way I'll have a rum drink with just about anybody, anytime.

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

( I am not being NA centrist. I simply don’t give a shit about the Olympics. ) 

With all due respect, I think you are being NA-centric, Gauv. Or at least "West-centric". Because not giving a shit about the Olympics is equivalent to ignoring the sailing realities of the underdeveloped, developing and emerging nations with sailing scenes that are not structured like NA. 

By "West", I am actually referring to nations where a model of private ownership of Lasers holds, hence Laser Fleets can be formed, and a local Class Association can develop. On the other side (the "East") are the nations where Lasers are purchased only by federations, national sailing associations, sailing clubs or schools; and very few (if any) Lasers are individually owned (and if so, only by Olympic hopefuls). In such countries, Fleets cannot be formed constitutionally, and there are no local Laser Class Associations. They are not even aware of the existence of a entities named as "Class Associations". There's just a "Laser Contact Person" appointed by the federation. (You can substitute any other descriptor for "West" and "East" here, say "Blue" and "Green", respectively.)

Probably you will remember my post about the (30?) countries where there is no Laser Class Association to speak of. (ALG, AND, ANT, BAH, BAR, BRN, BUL, CAY, COL, CRO, ECU, GIB, GRE, GRN, ISL, ISR, IVB, LTU, PUR, RUS, SLO, SRB & TUR, ...) These are all countries where sailing is governed by the heavy hands of a Federation, or at best by a national Sailing Association (both always affiliated with the State). I will refer to either one as a "federation". In the Green countries, you cannot even participate in a local race without being "licensed" by the "federation". Most licensees are the "athletes" (property) of a club, and in many of the Green countries, even if you have a "Sailing License", that piece of plastic cannot be in your possession; it is locked in the safe of the club (that owns you).

Now, in such Green countries, everyday sailing itself is also much more formalized and regulated than in the Blue countries. No Laser sailor can go out sailing alone just to cruise. All Laser sailing is in the form of "OTW training". All clubs have scores of paid Laser coaches. Depending on its size, clubs may have separate A,B,C teams, etc.

And in such Green countries, the federation invests in a class only if the class is in the Olympics, or is a stepping-stone to a class in the Olympics. Like the Opti-4.7-Radial-Standard echelon... In such countries, there are no other classes of boats that are raced. In TUR, for instance, the current official dinghy classes are the Optimist, Laser, 420, 470, 49er. Oh, there are also 3 Finns and ~20 Pirat's left over, and a bunch of RS:Xs that the federation no longer supports as of last year. In CRO, the only racing classes are the RS:X, Laser, 470, 49er and Finn, with the Finn going out the door.

In such Green countries, the moment the Laser is taken out of the Olympics and the federation no longer supports the class, all Lasers would gradually be transferred to sailing schools, holiday villages (or flower pots). All Laser sailors (except for some who may be devoted to the boat) would transfer in bulk to the class selected in place of the Laser. Replacing the existing 100s of Lasers with another class of singlehanders is, of course, extremely costly to the MNA. So, those Green countries care a lot about the Laser staying in the Olympics.

And when you ignore those Green countries, of course you are being "NA-centric", my friend.

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55 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

individual sailors may not be as invested in olympic sailing. Most of us are club level racers who want to enjoy our boats with likeminded people, but, as has been addressed many times in this thread, the Olympics DO matter on a structural/development level. For the people who run the class, it's vitally important to keep a strong development pathway to high level sailing that includes the laser. People who are in positions that worry about structural growth are telling you that it matters. And you respond with with an assertion that you know better. Why don't you take over? Put yourself into a position that has meaningful clout for the direction of the class since you have a better idea of how to run it than all the people telling you what they are actually trying to do to help the class. enough of the armchair quarterbacking.

 

I did my turn in the barrel and other than occasional fun with some other semi geriatrics I am done dinghy racing.  But really your whole assertion for why a class should abandon its bedrock SMOD roots for a WS demand to go FRAND to stay in Olympics (not equally applied BTW) is that in bold?  Because they said so???  Thanks but no.  Sorry but if there is anything I have learned in following this mess is that everybody will say whatever and ignore whatever they want in order to win.    And... so based on your theory above the people in EurILCA should vote no because they are telling their members it matters?

Oh and hello??!!  Why didn't it matter and work for the past 25 years??  Hello is anyone out there??

 

49 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Yep- but here we are in the 12th hour.  I've not seen anything better come by and from all indications nothing is going to.  So I'm hitching my wagon up to this horse who may get me home or may be old/tired and die after 3 steps....Supply issues here in the US absolutely suck period.  I can't see how any new model could be worse.

Frankly I like the way the change proposal is written.  Hell, if LP steps up their game and there's a sudden influx of new boat orders they could very well be on the receiving side of those orders.  I'd take a boat from them assuming they are playing nice.

Currently the class growth rate is going the wrong way in the US.  The last 2 years has been a decent downturn.  I say it's due to poor supply, support and dealers quitting.   Legal wrangling hasn't helped either.  At times I've felt like ILCA wasn't doing anything but taking lip service from LP, "Oh, things are going to improve.  We promise...yeah right..." Staying the current course is not going to reverse that.  

However this ends up I'd wager there's a 90% chance LPE goes to court, but outside of spite I honestly can't understand why... 

Wish you were a class member Wess.  Wish many of the posters on this thread were and would vote either way just so long as a registered voice is heard.  For me it's like listening to people bitch about who's president.  "Well, did you vote" …"No"... Then you can't complain because you chose NOT to use your voice when/where it counted.

Either way I'll have a rum drink with just about anybody, anytime.

The 12th hour.  I gotta say that sounds a lot like the Y2K thing.  A whole lots of scare for a non event.  I am not sure WS boots the Laser even if the class votes no and the builders can't find agreeable FRAND terms.  As others have said they need us more than we need them.  Further there are ways to put lipstick on the FRAND pig and for everyone to maintain the status quo and go to the Olympics without blowing things up. If that was ALL everyone REALLY wanted.

I see you too passed up on my bet which is highly biased in your favor but no worries I too will drink rum with anyone and especially any Laser sailor past or present (except one on ignore and maybe even him) regardless of how they vote. 

I am curious about your vote comment. Not here or there but why do you think I should?  True enough that I own a Laser.  I sail it with some regularity just for fun. I race it extremely rarely now a days. The fee to rejoin the class is insignificant so it would be very easy for me to do so.  BUT... in my current and likely future state how the vote turns out does not impact me.  It will impact others who are very active in the class.  Its one thing to talk (or type) about and discuss things.  But to vote (especially when my view is likely a minority in the US) just seems wrong to me.  Would never happen but I would not feel good if my one vote changed things.  

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11 minutes ago, drLaser said:

Wit all due respect, I think you are being NA-centric, Gauv. Or at least "West-centric". Because not giving a shit about the Olympics is equivalent to ignoring the sailing realities of the underdeveloped, developing and emerging nations with sailing scenes that are not structured like NA. 

By "West", I am actually referring to nations where a model of private ownership of Lasers holds, hence Laser Fleets can be formed, and a local Class Association can develop. On the other side (the "East") are the nations where Lasers are purchased only by federations, national sailing associations, sailing clubs or schools; and very few (if any) Lasers are individually owned (and if so, only by Olympic hopefuls). In such countries, Fleets cannot be formed constitutionally, and there are no local Laser Class Associations. They are not even aware of the existence of a entities named as "Class Associations". (You can substitute any other descriptor for "West" and "East" here, say "Blue" and "Green", respectively.)

Probably you will remember my post about the (30?) countries where there is no Laser Class Association to speak of. (ALG, AND, ANT, BAH, BAR, BRN, BUL, CAY, COL, CRO, ECU, GIB, GRE, GRN, ISL, ISR, IVB, LTU, PUR, RUS, SLO, SRB & TUR, ...) These are all countries where sailing is governed by the heavy hands of a Federation, or at best by a national Sailing Association, always affiliated with the State. I will refer to either one as a "federation". In the Green countries, you cannot even participate in a local race without being "licensed" by the "federation". Most licensees are the "athlete" (property) of a club, and in many of the Green countries, even if you have a "Sailing License", that piece of plastic cannot be in your possession; it is locked in the safe of the club (that owns you).

Now, in such Green countries, everyday sailing itself is also much more formalized and regulated than in the Blue countries. No Laser sailor can go out sailing alone just to cruise. All Laser sailing is in the form of "OTW training". All clubs have scores of paid Laser coaches. Depending on its size, clubs have separate A,B,C teams, etc. And in such Green countries, the federation invests in a class only if the class is in the Olympics, or is a stepping-stone to a class in the Olympics. Like the Opti-4.7-Radial-Standard echelon... In such countries, there are no other classes of boats that are raced. In TUR, for instance, the current official dinghy classes are the Optimist, Laser, 420, 470, 49er. Oh, there are also 3 Finns and ~20 Pirat's left over, and a bunch of RS:Xs that the federation no longer supports as of last year. In CRO, the only racing classes are the RS:X, Laser, 470, 49er and Finn, with the Finn going out the door.

In such Green countries, the moment the Laser is taken out of the Olympics and the federation no longer supports the class, all Lasers would gradually be transferred to sailing schools, holiday villages (or flower pots). All Laser sailors (except for some who may be devoted to the boat) would transfer in bulk to the class selected in place of the Laser. Replacing the existing 100s of Lasers with another class of singlehanders is, of course, extremely costly to the MNA. So, those Green countries care a lot about the Laser staying in the Olympics.

And when you ignore those Green countries, of course you are being "NA-centric", my friend.

If THAT is the model then put me down as NA-centric. Not that it matters. Now I’ll go back to my corner.:) 

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

I did my turn in the barrel and other than occasional fun with some other semi geriatrics I am done dinghy racing.  But really your whole assertion for why a class should abandon its bedrock SMOD roots for a WS demand to go FRAND to stay in Olympics (not equally applied BTW) is that in bold?  Because they said so???  Thanks but no.  Sorry but if there is anything I have learned in following this mess is that everybody will say whatever and ignore whatever they want in order to win.    And... so based on your theory above the people in EurILCA should vote no because they are telling their members it matters?

 

The 12th hour.  I gotta say that sounds a lot like the Y2K thing.  A whole lots of scare for a non event.  I am not sure WS boots the Laser even if the class votes no and the builders can't find agreeable FRAND terms.  As others have said they need us more than we need them.  Further there are ways to put lipstick on the FRAND pig and for everyone to maintain the status quo and go to the Olympics without blowing things up. If that was ALL everyone REALLY wanted.

I see you too passed up on my bet which is highly biased in your favor but no worries I too will drink rum with anyone and especially any Laser sailor past or present (except one on ignore and maybe even him) regardless of how they vote. 

I am curious about your vote comment. Not here or there but why do you think I should?  True enough that I own a Laser.  I sail it with some regularity just for fun. I race it extremely rarely now a days. The fee to rejoin the class is insignificant so it would be very easy for me to do so.  BUT... in my current and likely future state how the vote turns out does not impact me.  It will impact others who are very active in the class.  Its one thing to talk (or type) about and discuss things.  But to vote (especially when my view is likely a minority in the US) just seems wrong to me.  Would never happen but I would not feel good if my one vote changed things.  

I think you should follow your gut and do whatever makes you feel most comfortable.

The August 1st date was set in late April right?  There's been time AND the Aero, (or another boat) has to have time to get going for 2024.  The laser is still in for 2020, but you gotta draw a line in the sand somewhere.

Just read your bet a little closer- I could see quality being an issue in the beginning as people are getting started, but it would smooth out.  Pricing has been creeping up.  I'm not looking for better pricing and I think it's a little ignorant to think it will go down as people do things to make money.  Supply? I'll bet a handle that supply will improve at least in the US if FRAND happens AND we stay in the Olympics.  If we get FRAND and still loose the Olympics no one will want to START building Lasers anytime soon.

 

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I think you should follow your gut and do whatever makes you feel most comfortable.

The August 1st date was set in late April right?  There's been time AND the Aero, (or another boat) has to have time to get going for 2024.  The laser is still in for 2020, but you gotta draw a line in the sand somewhere.

Just read your bet a little closer- I could see quality being an issue in the beginning as people are getting started, but it would smooth out.  Pricing has been creeping up.  I'm not looking for better pricing and I think it's a little ignorant to think it will go down as people do things to make money.  Supply? I'll bet a handle that supply will improve at least in the US if FRAND happens AND we stay in the Olympics.  If we get FRAND and still loose the Olympics no one will want to START building Lasers anytime soon.

 

See this is why you should take the bet.  I gotta get everything right and you only have to get one thing right.  Come into the light... LOL.

OK so you picked supply improves.  Lets think on that.  I asked Tracy (another one of those hard to answer questions that get ignored) how soon after the vote he though there would be a replacement builder on line that could replace the LPE 2000 boat a year production rate.  When would they be at that rate?

Crickets....

That has to make the EurILCA folks feel real good.  For sure.

So lets think on this a bit.  What is PSA and PJA build capacity?  Do they serve their home markets first?  What is the cost to ship those boats to Europe or NA? And then to transport them to dealers across a continent?  Who of course fairly also want to make money. Oh a new builder in NA or EU you say?  Oh both you say? OK how long to get them molds?  How long to set up to run what is antiquated technology and processes (love you Laser but you are old)?  To understand and do right by the LCM?  Oh yea and how much money ($$) do they have to invest to build that 2000 per year (minimum) capacity?  And what is the lead time soup to nuts, end to end, from GO to DOOR  to get that new boat to customers or dealers door even starting AFTER the new factory/line is built and the process learned and raw acquired?  Is there still a positive margin left?  And wait what?  I am a new builder and you folks in ILCA did not (???) vote on a name change for the organization?  So I am making boats that look like Lasers for a class that calls itself Laser and I am selling these boats in territories where I don't hold the Laser trademark and the somebody that does hold that trademark is suing the class... let me see now as a boat builder do I have an IP attorney on staff... or maybe ILCA and/or WS will indemnify me if(?) when(?) LPE sues me as a new builder for ILCA.  Yea I am picking supply gets worse. 

So you picked supply get better.  I could see that eventually, especially as I see a fractured class and demand going down not up. But when do you see it (better supply) happening?

Tell me when starting from August 1 (though per Tracy's note we will not even have the vote done by then).  What year?

Not busting your chops.  Honestly.  I am just pointing out that this ain't all peaches and cream like ILCA is selling it to be.  They ain't throwing a sailor a lifejacket.  At least for those sailors in Europe I believe they are throwing them an anchor.

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

See this is why you should take the bet.  I gotta get everything right and you only have to get one thing right.  Come into the light... LOL.

OK so you picked supply improves.  Lets think on that.  I asked Tracy (another one of those hard to answer questions that get ignored) how soon after the vote he though there would be a replacement builder on line that could replace the LPE 2000 boat a year production rate.  When would they be at that rate?

Crickets....

That has to make the EurILCA folks feel real good.  For sure.

So lets think on this a bit.  What is PSA and PJA build capacity?  Do they serve their home markets first?  What is the cost to ship those boats to Europe or NA? And then to transport them to dealers across a continent?  Who of course fairly also want to make money. Oh a new builder in NA or EU you say?  Oh both you say? OK how long to get them molds?  How long to set up to run what is antiquated technology and processes (love you Laser but you are old)?  To understand and do right by the LCM?  Oh yea and how much money ($$) do they have to invest to build that 2000 per year (minimum) capacity?  And what is the lead time soup to nuts, end to end, from GO to DOOR  to get that new boat to customers or dealers door even starting AFTER the new factory/line is built and the process learned and raw acquired?  Is there still a positive margin left?  And wait what?  I am a new builder and you folks in ILCA did not (???) vote on a name change for the organization?  So I am making boats that look like Lasers for a class that calls itself Laser and I am selling these boats in territories where I don't hold the Laser trademark and the somebody that does hold that trademark is suing the class... let me see now as a boat builder do I have an IP attorney on staff... or maybe ILCA and/or WS will indemnify me if(?) when(?) LPE sues me as a new builder for ILCA.  Yea I am picking supply gets worse. 

So you picked supply get better.  I could see that eventually, especially as I see a fractured class and demand going down not up. But when do you see it (better supply) happening?

Tell me when starting from August 1 (though per Tracy's note we will not even have the vote done by then).  What year?

Not busting your chops.  Honestly.  I am just pointing out that this ain't all peaches and cream like ILCA is selling it to be.  They ain't throwing a sailor a lifejacket.  At least for those sailors in Europe I believe they are throwing them an anchor.

 

Good points, but again "better compared to what?"  Seriously though, this is LP's thing to loose.  This vote does not eliminate them as a supplier.  However, it does give ILCA the power to not use them if they choose.  

Secondly, and clearly, LP supplies Europe well. Sure as hell 2,000 boats ain't makin to the states every year.  If we get a builder stateside popping out 500 boats a year that will be a huge improvement.  Yes, it takes time to get up to speed, but if LP is gone I bet one of the other two can step up production far faster than getting another builder online.  Yes, freight could be an issue, but the boats will be there for those who want to buy them.  Much improved over what we have now.

I'm taking your bet!  I'm in!

 

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1 minute ago, RobbieB said:

Good points, but again "better compared to what?"  Seriously though, this is LP's thing to loose.  This vote does not eliminate them as a supplier.  However, it does give ILCA the power to not use them if they choose.  

Secondly, and clearly, LP supplies Europe well. Sure as hell 2,000 boats ain't makin to the states every year.  If we get a builder stateside popping out 500 boats a year that will be a huge improvement.  Yes, it takes time to get up to speed, but if LP is gone I bet one of the other two can step up production far faster than getting another builder online.  Yes, freight could be an issue, but the boats will be there for those who want to buy them.  Much improved over what we have now.

I'm taking your bet!  I'm in!

 

Outstanding; either way we drink! 

I hear you on US and I would not be surprised if it’s not even 500 boats. Based on some comments I would guess it’s closer to 200. That is why using the life jacket analogy I said ILCA gave an anchor not a life jacket to European sailors.  In the US our boat needs are so low and LPE sucked so bad we really don’t need a life jacket. We learned to swim 5 years ago. But I agree it could not get worse in terms of buying new boats from US dealers. 

How many folks in your fleet bought event boats? That is a pathway I see a fair amount in the US. And we could have the same detailed questions and long list of reality checks on event boat supply and charter fees that we just did on supply and build issues.

Anyway I am glad to have another Laser drinking buddy. Even if I have to buy but I still think it will be you. I will bring the limes! 

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LP haven't been reinstated as a builder yet right?  Just had the lifeline thrown to them to plaque those 500 odd boats.  So unless they pull their finger out and come to some sort of an agreement there will be shortages one way or another

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50 minutes ago, Wess said:

Outstanding; either way we drink! 

I hear you on US and I would not be surprised if it’s not even 500 boats. Based on some comments I would guess it’s closer to 200. That is why using the life jacket analogy I said ILCA gave an anchor not a life jacket to European sailors.  In the US our boat needs are so low and LPE sucked so bad we really don’t need a life jacket. We learned to swim 5 years ago. But I agree it could not get worse in terms of buying new boats from US dealers. 

How many folks in your fleet bought event boats? That is a pathway I see a fair amount in the US. And we could have the same detailed questions and long list of reality checks on event boat supply and charter fees that we just did on supply and build issues.

Anyway I am glad to have another Laser drinking buddy. Even if I have to buy but I still think it will be you. I will bring the limes! 

how do you feel about scotch?

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3 hours ago, drLaser said:

With all due respect, I think you are being NA-centric, Gauv. Or at least "West-centric". Because not giving a shit about the Olympics is equivalent to ignoring the sailing realities of the underdeveloped, developing and emerging nations with sailing scenes that are not structured like NA. 

By "West", I am actually referring to nations where a model of private ownership of Lasers holds, hence Laser Fleets can be formed, and a local Class Association can develop. On the other side (the "East") are the nations where Lasers are purchased only by federations, national sailing associations, sailing clubs or schools; and very few (if any) Lasers are individually owned (and if so, only by Olympic hopefuls). In such countries, Fleets cannot be formed constitutionally, and there are no local Laser Class Associations. They are not even aware of the existence of a entities named as "Class Associations". There's just a "Laser Contact Person" appointed by the federation. (You can substitute any other descriptor for "West" and "East" here, say "Blue" and "Green", respectively.)

Probably you will remember my post about the (30?) countries where there is no Laser Class Association to speak of. (ALG, AND, ANT, BAH, BAR, BRN, BUL, CAY, COL, CRO, ECU, GIB, GRE, GRN, ISL, ISR, IVB, LTU, PUR, RUS, SLO, SRB & TUR, ...) These are all countries where sailing is governed by the heavy hands of a Federation, or at best by a national Sailing Association (both always affiliated with the State). I will refer to either one as a "federation". In the Green countries, you cannot even participate in a local race without being "licensed" by the "federation". Most licensees are the "athletes" (property) of a club, and in many of the Green countries, even if you have a "Sailing License", that piece of plastic cannot be in your possession; it is locked in the safe of the club (that owns you).

Now, in such Green countries, everyday sailing itself is also much more formalized and regulated than in the Blue countries. No Laser sailor can go out sailing alone just to cruise. All Laser sailing is in the form of "OTW training". All clubs have scores of paid Laser coaches. Depending on its size, clubs may have separate A,B,C teams, etc.

And in such Green countries, the federation invests in a class only if the class is in the Olympics, or is a stepping-stone to a class in the Olympics. Like the Opti-4.7-Radial-Standard echelon... In such countries, there are no other classes of boats that are raced. In TUR, for instance, the current official dinghy classes are the Optimist, Laser, 420, 470, 49er. Oh, there are also 3 Finns and ~20 Pirat's left over, and a bunch of RS:Xs that the federation no longer supports as of last year. In CRO, the only racing classes are the RS:X, Laser, 470, 49er and Finn, with the Finn going out the door.

In such Green countries, the moment the Laser is taken out of the Olympics and the federation no longer supports the class, all Lasers would gradually be transferred to sailing schools, holiday villages (or flower pots). All Laser sailors (except for some who may be devoted to the boat) would transfer in bulk to the class selected in place of the Laser. Replacing the existing 100s of Lasers with another class of singlehanders is, of course, extremely costly to the MNA. So, those Green countries care a lot about the Laser staying in the Olympics.

And when you ignore those Green countries, of course you are being "NA-centric", my friend.

Thank you for raising this in detail, not only because it's important for Lasers but because it shows how damaging the mooted change to the Aero would have been for sailing in general in those countries.

I imagine the reaction if these MNAs nd their funding body had to replace the entire fleet of the most popular discipline in the sport merely because some people thought the older stuff didn't look cool or raised a sweat would have been to think "do we really need to throw away all these boats just to satisfy a bunch of wimpy fashion tragics?"

 

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3 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

If THAT is the model then put me down as NA-centric. Not that it matters. Now I’ll go back to my corner.:) 

Funnily enough, the "Green country" model looks to be quite similar to the US model from where I'm sitting. Both systems have plenty of fleets owned by clubs or other bodies. Both seem to put an emphasis on large "pro" clubs rather than small ones where the members do the painting and PROing.  Both are heavily influenced by competitions run by a body outside the CA and clubs.

But whatever the individual may think, the fact seems to be that the "Green" countries are a vital factor in the Laser class and the Laser class in those countries is a vital factor in the sport of sailing, so we can't just burn them off and not suffer consequences.

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

OK so you picked supply improves.  Lets think on that.  I asked Tracy (another one of those hard to answer questions that get ignored) how soon after the vote he though there would be a replacement builder on line that could replace the LPE 2000 boat a year production rate.  When would they be at that rate?

Crickets....

Sorry, my real job is tugging at me today and I have only enough time to scan this forum today. 

I have two data points.

Builder 1 claims to be able to be producing boats within 2 months. On its face this seems, well, aggressive. However, they are a large volume producer of several other small boat lines (as well larger boats) with many years of experience and lots of resources that could be thrown at the problem. Given the size and experience of their operation it is conceivable though I'd not bet money on this estimate.  

Builder 2 claims boats in dealer showrooms in under 6 months (from August 1). This one I do really believe for reasons I'd rather not disclose here. 

 

BTW, off topic, a video of the meeting in Japan was made and will hopefully get posted soon. 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

"I previously offered a friendly handle of rum and ginger beer (like dark and stormies?) bet that if FRAND was implement as envisioned here that boat prices would go up not down, quality problems would increase not decrease, and supply problems would increase not decrease.   I will add to that friendly wager that the growth rate (I was told its actually in decline... no?) does not appreciably improve.  LPE may never have offered you a free boat (did PSA?... KIDDING) but I just offered you free rum! 

Sorry, did I miss a bet for some dark rum?!? If it still stands I'm definitely in on that! 

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All

i read above that matters...

Promises from somebody about boats around Christmas .

If that works out to be even close to true, a massive campaign, including personal Facebooking and local meetings hosted by all who have posted in this thread, could be EXACTLY what sailing needs.

Buy yourself and your young friends new Doozamathinghy Dinghies for Christmas ( or the merchandizing Holliday of your choice) 

and... Every one who brings a Dooozamathinghy Dinghy to the Easter Laser and Doozamathinghy Dinghy with AEROs regatta can sit down with special Guest Tracy Usher for a jigger of Dark rum.  

Note: If the sailor is under age Tracy will drink the rum for both.

Note b: If Tracy can’t make it Mr E Bunny may resort to Drinking chocolate milk 

 

100 Doozamathinghy Dinghies at Easter or ...

we will have a great time anyway 

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24 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

100 Doozamathinghy Dinghies at Easter or ...

we will have a great time anyway 

Who’s up for a road trip to Texas! This should give us plenty of time and added incentive to get a Lowcountry Laser Sailing Association 6 boat trailer on the road. We’ll put the kid’s Opti in the back of the truck. Start planning Sparky!

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3 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Who’s up for a road trip to Texas! This should give us plenty of time and added incentive to get a Lowcountry Laser Sailing Association 6 boat trailer on the road. We’ll put the kid’s Opti in the back of the truck. Start planning Sparky!

i like this idea. @Gouvernail give me the details on your 2020 easter regatta

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I think the NOR is already up. Too pooped to check tonight 

Two this afternoon a fellow walked in and asked if he could buy a friend’s J-24 off my lot. The boat has been sitting out of the water since 2009.

We had a trailer to sell with it but it was under. Beneteau 235. 

By 8 pm we had the boat on the other trailer, new tires, new lights, a signed and notarized title, a bill of sale in both English and Spanish , an old Suzuki outboard, everything tied down and the guy was off to Villa De Bravo. 

May midnight I had the Beneteau out of the hoist and the other boats back in the shop so the guys can work tomorrow. 

I missed Wednesday night sailing!!!!! Damnit!!! 

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7 hours ago, Curious said:

Funnily enough, the "Green country" model looks to be quite similar to the US model from where I'm sitting. Both systems have plenty of fleets owned by clubs or other bodies. Both seem to put an emphasis on large "pro" clubs rather than small ones where the members do the painting and PROing.  Both are heavily influenced by competitions run by a body outside the CA and clubs.

Somehow, I have exactly the opposite picture in my mind, Curious. However, my data is outdated and is based on the details of the 300+ Laser Fleets in NA decades ago. I presume you reside in the US and if so, I will take your word for it. But I am very surprised. What you claim does not even fit the American spirit. Look at the example of the Easter Regatta.

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8 hours ago, Curious said:

Funnily enough, the "Green country" model looks to be quite similar to the US model from where I'm sitting. Both systems have plenty of fleets owned by clubs or other bodies. Both seem to put an emphasis on large "pro" clubs rather than small ones where the members do the painting and PROing.  Both are heavily influenced by competitions run by a body outside the CA and clubs.

But whatever the individual may think, the fact seems to be that the "Green" countries are a vital factor in the Laser class and the Laser class in those countries is a vital factor in the sport of sailing, so we can't just burn them off and not suffer consequences.

 

 

 

Apples and oranges I would say. The differences are so vast I don’t even no where to begin. The “Green” countries have hitched their sailing wagon to the State mule. A membership in US Sailing has nothing to do with a state issued license to sail. A Laser sailor can’t go out alone just to cruise! WTF!! This is a different world he’s describing. And to the extent that similarities exist I would say shame on us. He who pays the piper calls the tune. I’d rather go it alone.

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8 hours ago, Curious said:

Funnily enough, the "Green country" model looks to be quite similar to the US model from where I'm sitting. Both systems have plenty of fleets owned by clubs or other bodies.

'spose you're talking about the college sailing institute owned model. But how much is that a thing outside that specialist arena in the US?

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3 hours ago, drLaser said:

Somehow, I have exactly the opposite picture in my mind, Curious. However, my data is outdated and is based on the details of the 300+ Laser Fleets in NA decades ago. I presume you reside in the US and if so, I will take your word for it. But I am very surprised. What you claim does not even fit the American spirit. Look at the example of the Easter Regatta.

Nope, I don't reside in the USA so I was just looking from the outside in (as I noted in the first sentence) and using information knowledgeable people on the inside (ie Ian Bruce etc) have given me. As an Australian I have always noted how the US seems to have a rather more "institutionalised" system of dinghy sailing than appears to be the norm in Australia, the UK, NZ etc, such as the concept of YCs, non-profits and colleges owning significant fleets of racing boats; regional selection of classes such as is done by JRALIS or the GCYAs; the major classes designed around such ideals (ie the C420, CFJ, Pixel); the very significant proportion of dinghy sailing that takes place in the college scene with its ranking system; and the lack of smaller amateur-run dinghy clubs on the one hand and big "professional" dinghy-specialist clubs such as Hayling Island or Brighton Seacliff on the other. Some of those things seemed to show a tendency to have more over-arching schemes of organisation than seems to be the norm in the other major English-speaking sailing countries, and therefore be rather more similar in some respects to the "green nations".

To take one example; the US has a huge and well organised college sailing system using provided boats; the UK has something similar but it's less prominent in many ways; NZ seems to have no organised inter-college sailing and in Australia it's a very intermittent scene run by students and therefore there may be little or no real inter-college racing for years on end. The US seems to have much more of an emphasis on a institutionalised system than (say) NZ or Australia and is in that respect closer to the "green nations".

My comment was also a response to a comment that denigrated the system in the "green countries". Most of the successful dinghy sailing nations have evolved very different models that suit their very different geography, economy, legal system, weather, working hours, population size and spread, systems of land tenure etc, and the "green nations" system seems to work fairly well in many places judging from what I can find out about the growth and strength of dinghy sailing in some of those countries.

 

 

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

'spose you're talking about the college sailing institute owned model. But how much is that a thing outside that specialist arena in the US?

Not just that, but also things like the Junior Sailing Association of Long Island Sound selecting classes for a pretty organised-looking system of interclub competition; the creation of classes like the CFJ and C420 (which were created around the needs of institutional ownership more than classes like the Lark and Firefly, from what I'm told by those who know); and the large proportion of dinghy sailing that takes place as a minor part of the operations of a larger institution (like a yacht club that centres on big boats, or a college) instead of taking place at a club that focuses on dinghy racing.

It's not a criticism since, as I've been told by those who know, things like land tenure systems make it hard to operate something like the little clubs we so often see in other countries. 

One of the things that interests me about the Laser is that it seems to be such a versatile design that it does well, for various reasons, even across all of these widely different sailing scenes. That's so rare that surely it should be cherished and supported by the sport - as Tracey said earlier the chances of any new class having such success is pretty remote.

 

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34 minutes ago, Curious said:

NZ seems to have no organised inter-college sailing

My first regatta in Lasers was at the University games in 1983. (Team racing)

NZ has high school sailing contests

Not much similarity to what I have seen in the US. (I joined up with the ULCA Mac center at Marina del Rey, so got to see a little of the College scene / setup first hand).

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Interesting presentation going on with Clive and Nick at the moment with the Queensland Laser Association: 

 

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8 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

Who’s up for a road trip to Texas! This should give us plenty of time and added incentive to get a Lowcountry Laser Sailing Association 6 boat trailer on the road. We’ll put the kid’s Opti in the back of the truck. Start planning Sparky!

I love me some Texas, (and Gouv.). We need to discuss this possibility!

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15 hours ago, Wess said:

Outstanding; either way we drink! 

I hear you on US and I would not be surprised if it’s not even 500 boats. Based on some comments I would guess it’s closer to 200. That is why using the life jacket analogy I said ILCA gave an anchor not a life jacket to European sailors.  In the US our boat needs are so low and LPE sucked so bad we really don’t need a life jacket. We learned to swim 5 years ago. But I agree it could not get worse in terms of buying new boats from US dealers. 

How many folks in your fleet bought event boats? That is a pathway I see a fair amount in the US. And we could have the same detailed questions and long list of reality checks on event boat supply and charter fees that we just did on supply and build issues.

Anyway I am glad to have another Laser drinking buddy. Even if I have to buy but I still think it will be you. I will bring the limes! 

I've become a bit of a "match maker" for the used Laser market in our district, (two new butts placed in the past two weeks).  I've not seen a new, (or almost new regatta hull) in at least two years in our District.  We do have lots of very nice Vanguard hulls though!

Looking forward to that drink either way.  How do you feel about Texas?

 

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4 hours ago, Curious said:

My comment was also a response to a comment that denigrated the system in the "green countries". Most of the successful dinghy sailing nations have evolved very different models that suit their very different geography, economy, legal system, weather, working hours, population size and spread, systems of land tenure etc, and the "green nations" system seems to work fairly well in many places judging from what I can find out about the growth and strength of dinghy sailing in some of those countries.

Perhaps I should have been less “enthusiastic” in voicing my opposition to the model described. I certainly don’t want to be seen as denigrating any involvement in the sport. If it’s working for them great, but it’s not the tradition in these parts. There are thousands of small sailing clubs in the States, all doing their own thing.  They don’t get the press, but they organize and sail on a voluntary and private basis. I can sit down with friends and start a private sailing club, aquire property, and host regattas. I don’t need a license to do this. Our sailing activities are not managed by the sate. But to each his own. I would love to make it to Australia one day. I hear they have some decent Laser sailors down there :)

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6 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Perhaps I should have been less “enthusiastic” in voicing my opposition to the model described. I certainly don’t want to be seen as denigrating any involvement in the sport. If it’s working for them great, but it’s not the tradition in these parts. There are thousands of small sailing clubs in the States, all doing their own thing.  They don’t get the press, but they organize and sail on a voluntary and private basis. I can sit down with friends and start a private sailing club, aquire property, and host regattas. I don’t need a license to do this. Our sailing activities are not managed by the sate. But to each his own. I would love to make it to Australia one day. I hear they have some decent Laser sailors down there :)

Well...on the coast the CG does ask us to file event plans with them in advance, (coastal venues).  Has to be above a certain number of boats like 5 or 10.  There is a little bit of oversite particularly in areas subject to commercial traffic.  Spot on with everything else though!

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7 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Well...on the coast the CG does ask us to file event plans with them in advance, (coastal venues).  Has to be above a certain number of boats like 5 or 10.  There is a little bit of oversite particularly in areas subject to commercial traffic.  Spot on with everything else though!

Charleston harbor is very busy, known to be dangerous to Laser sailors.

joel.jpg

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38 minutes ago, torrid said:

Charleston harbor is very busy, known to be dangerous to Laser sailors.

joel.jpg

Yeah.  The year old Joel got mowed down by a tour boat.  He got a nice new, (well one regatta old) "Volvo" event boat out of it.  I think that was the last new hull to hit the area.  "Thanks LP."

He tells a pretty scary story of kicking his way down the side of the huge tour boat trying not to get sucked under it.  We have old "Volvo NED" in our donated fleet of club boats now.

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5 hours ago, JMP said:

Interesting presentation going on with Clive and Nick at the moment with the Queensland Laser Association: 

 

Just finished watching this video. I highly recommend it to everybody! It is long, but every minute of it is full of detailed information from the sea trials in Valencia to the current FRAND discussion, the termination of LP as a builder, the new Radial bottom section and the development of the C5 rig. 

The FRAND part starts about 22 minutes in.

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3 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

I would love to make it to Australia one day. I hear they have some decent Laser sailors down there

Just one or two. I hear Australia got two in the top 10 at the worlds. Wasn't there a country that got 3 in the top 10? ;)

3 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

If it’s working for them great, but it’s not the tradition in these parts. There are thousands of small sailing clubs in the States, all doing their own thing.

Spent time in both. Very different. NZ is different again. Laser is very international. A lot of diversity.

I completely agree with Dr Laser's assessment of the different countries and the characterization of green/blue.

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Just curious.  Is there a sailing discussion forum in Europe like SA or The Laser Forum where the laser sailors over there are talking smack like we are over here?  Or is the lame FB page all they got?  Just would like to know what they are saying.  Guess it can be difficult to congregate and converse somewhere when everyone speaks a different language....?

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11 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Just curious.  Is there a sailing discussion forum in Europe like SA or The Laser Forum where the laser sailors over there are talking smack like we are over here?  Or is the lame FB page all they got?  Just would like to know what they are saying.  Guess it can be difficult to congregate and converse somewhere when everyone speaks a different language....?

Different languages are less of an issue than you may think. A ton of people speak several.

The powerful communications are personal - there is a lot of that. (Emails etc) I have personally spoken to people in about 11 countries over the last week.

There are a ton of FB pages, Instagram, a bit on YouTube, websites and a scattering of smaller forums. A little on Reddit and hardly anything on Twitter.

Here's how to get a sense of what is being talked about on FB. Find the opposing view - and click on who likes the LaserPerformance post, you will see a list of profiles. Then look at their profile, look at who likes their posts etc. What is great about FB is that you can click on the translate button, and usually make sense on what is being said. Takes a little practice, but you can get quite quick at it.

Don't lose sight that there are 740 million people in the European region.

But to answer your question, there is nothing like Sailing Anarchy in Europe (isn't SA is global?) - what makes that so is that ILCA WC members have posted here. (And kudos to their commitment to communication and transparency for doing that.)

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14 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

A Laser sailor can’t go out alone just to cruise! WTF!! This is a different world he’s describing.

Six years ago, a young Laser sailor from my club (Istanbul Sailing Club) on the TUR national team went out alone on his Laser late in the afternoon, and could not return by sunset when the wind died down. One of the (many) coaches of the Club noticed him two miles out, and went on his RIB to tow him. By the time he was where he had last seen him, it was already pitch dark. Yells, screams, whistles, no result. He came back to the club, and they went out to search for the guy in five different coach RIBs. (The club has 12 of them.)

While they were out looking for him, the young Laser sailors showed up at the ramp, standing on the bow, rocking his Laser left and right.

So, great. Everything resolved. Maybe somebody will get yelled at a bit. But no, not in a Green country!

The same night, the president, the commodore, the vice-commodore and the sports director meet, and (like in any totalitarian state) come to the conclusion that the best way to deal with such situations is to enforce a total ban on time on water without a coach present next to any sailor!

The next day is a perfect day (for me as GM). Blowing 9-10 knots, a sunny, brilliant day. So, I go to the club, start rigging my (privately owned) Laser 184778 "Deathroll". Full of excitement and anticipation for some great time on the water. Just as I step the mast, a coach comes and says "Doc, you can't go out. After what happened last night, they're not allowing anyone to go out sailing alone."

After I learned all the details of the rule, including that it didn't matter whether I was 17 or 60 years old,  I asked whether there were any coaches around who could accompany me while I sailed. The answer was that all coaches were busy with something, as it was not a "training day". So, c'est la vie, en Turquie! I unrigged. Packed up. Went back home. Angry! Imagine a sailing club where you are not allowed to go out and sail!  I started a rigorous research (Hudson-like research) on how various clubs deal with this around the world. Liability releases, OTW time declaration boards, shore watches, etc. Then I composed a post for my Facebook page, talking about the incident first, and continuing with:

     "Stupid, stupid, stupid!"

and explaining all the more civilized ways other sailing clubs use to deal with situations like this.

In a Blue country, at worst somebody like Gouv could say "We don't give a rats ass whether you want to go sailing. Live with it." At worst. But not in a Green country.

The next day, two things happened:

1) The Laser sailor who couldn't plan his sail right and could not make it back to the Club confronted me and tried to beat me up for calling the Club's decision "stupid". His father was the vice-commodore. His exact words were, "Are you calling my father stupid?" :)

2) I received an e-mail from the Sports Director of the club (one of the three IJ's who translate the RRS into Turkish) , stating that my sailing license has been cancelled, and that I was given 24 hours to take my Laser out of the Club premises. Otherwise, it would be impounded by the police for trespassing. 

So, when Old Yeller said:

7 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

I certainly don’t want to be seen as denigrating any involvement in the sport. If it’s working for them great, but it’s not the tradition in these parts, 

I want to scream, "Don't denigrate, but please do criticize, Old Yeller." It's not actually working for us. It's not "to each his own". The above incident is not unique. It's very common in those Green countries. Autocratic, military regimes. Old "iron-curtain" countries. Or in general, countries where true democracy has not been really achieved yet. In such Green countries, the heavy hands of the State trickle down as the heavy hands of the "Federation" which trickle down as the heavy hands of the sailing clubs which trickle down as the heavy hands of the coaches that distribute the Federation/Club procured Lasers to sailors they select. 

In this context, I would like to "beg" ILCA not to continue their policy of endorsing the absence of truly sailor-operated and democratic Laser Class Associations in such Green Districts just because some "Federation" or "Sailing Association" pays the ILCA membership fee of a (made-up) number of Laser sailors in bulk. ILCA can play a role in democratizing the sailing scene in many countries.

PS. Obviously, I'm no longer a members of that club now. I joined a club right next to it. Now, that club has my license under lock and key.

PPS. Another mistake I made before trying to go out sailing that day was discovering 330 translation errors in RRS 2009-2012. (The current Turkish RRS 2017-2020 contains 1978 errors, 256 serious, and 276 critical.)

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39 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Is there a sailing discussion forum in Europe like SA or The Laser Forum where the laser sailors over there are talking smack like we are over here?  Or is the lame FB page all they got?  Just would like to know what they are saying. 

I just had a chance to chat with a European coach who was just in Japan. He noted: "People are not well-informed (in Europe). For instance, most people here are not even aware that if the 3 builders do not agree by 1 August, there is high probability of losing the Olympic status".

Parenthetical clarification is mine.

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4 minutes ago, drLaser said:

In this context, I would like to "beg" ILCA not to continue their policy of endorsing the absence of truly sailor-operated and democratic Laser Class Associations in such Green Districts just because some "Federation" or "Sailing Association" pays the ILCA membership fee of a (made-up) number of Laser sailors in bulk. ILCA can play a role in democratizing the sailing scene in many countries.

^^^This^^^

---

I recall the day I was told I was not allowed to rig my boat and launch it on any west LA beach (Venice, Santa Monica, Manhattan etc). At that moment I became a little more cynical about the US being the land of the free. I was used to having public rights on all beaches (ie No private beaches).

Had to use a boat ramp or a jetty, and pay a little for the privilege.

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9 minutes ago, drLaser said:

I just had a chance to chat with a European coach who was just in Japan. He noted: "People are not well-informed (in Europe). For instance, most people here are not even aware that if the 3 builders do not agree by 1 August, there is high probability of losing the Olympic status". 

Parenthetical clarification is mine.

Nah....   You won't lose Olympic status... you will loose the class!.... World Sailing will just make it so....    Laser class... do you agree with how its going to be? ...   I thought so!    Magic will happen and the paper work will follow making it all copacetic.  Ask a classic Tornado sailor how long it will take.

Nobody is going to walk up to the IOC and explain how the Laser class caused MNAs from all of these non euro countries to abandon sailing because of a branding issue.

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I can´t find any discussions in a german or dutch language forum. Informations seem to come mostly from the classes, like this one from the dutch class:

 

Stemadvies LON inzake ILCA Rule Change

Geplaatst op 04-07-2019  -  Categorie: Algemeen

Beste Laser zeiler,

 

We hebben eerder deze week een mail gestuurd met de oproep om even te wachten het uitbrengen van uw stem omdat we op het stem advies van de Eurilca wilden wachten.
De Eurilca heeft gister een zeer duidelijk stemadvies afgegeven:


EurILCA is recommending to vote: NO

Document van de Eurilca in de bijlage van deze mail, maar ook terug te vinden op:
https://www.facebook.com/eurilca/

 

Wij als Laserklasse organisatie steunen de oproep van de Eurilca om NEE te stemmen.

 

Een zeer belangrijk punt in de oproep om NEE te stemmen in het Eurilca document is:
 It’s also could be consider as a blank check to ILCA management to rename our class at any time they wish.
Maar dat niet alleen, het is een volledige vrijbrief voor het ILCA bestuur om te doen en te laten wat ze willen zonder inmenging van de leden, vervangen van 4.7, Radial en Standard masten en zeilen voor dure carbon masten en zeilen etc etc

Het risico bestaat dat er belangenverstrengeling zou kunnen ontstaan, zoals Eurilca schrijft:
● We also discovered recently that the ILCA board has created a company called” Weather helm” in order to do some commercial activities. The World council was never informed about this.


Breng je NEE stem uit via de link van ILCA, elke stem telt, het is belangrijk voor het voortbestaan van de Laser, denk niet het komt wel goed, stem NEE!!!

 

Google translation:

 

LON voting advice on ILCA Rule Change Posted on 04/07/2019 - Category: General Dear Laser sailor,   Earlier this week we sent an email with the call to wait a little while casting your vote because we wanted to wait for the Eurilca's voting advice. The Eurilca issued a very clear voting advice yesterday: EurILCA is recommending to vote: NO Document from the Eurilca in the attachment of this mail, but also on: https://www.facebook.com/eurilca/   As a Laser Class organization, we support the Eurilca's call to vote NO.   A very important point in the call to vote NO in the Eurilca document is: ● It also could be considered as a blank check to ILCA management to rename our class at any time they wish. But not only that, it is a complete license for the ILCA board to do whatever they want without interference from members, replacing 4.7, Radial and Standard masts and sails for expensive carbon masts and sails etc etc There is a risk that a conflict of interest could arise, as Eurilca writes: ● We also recently discovered that the ILCA board has created a company called "Weather Helmet" in order to do some commercial activities. The World council was never informed about this. Cast your NO vote via the link from ILCA, every vote counts, it is important for the survival of the Laser, don't think it will be alright, vote NO !!!

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12 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

Weather Helmet

nice. might make a nice new boat name

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Abstimmung über eine Änderung der Klassenregeln

newsbild_zu_286.png03.07.2019

 

Die EurILCA war gegen diese Abstimmung und möchte alle Mitglieder aufrufen, mit NEIN zu stimmen. Hier findet Ihr das Rundschreiben der EurILCA (deutsche Übersetzung):

 

Liebe Klassenvorsitzende,

 

Ihr habt gestern Morgen (02.07.2019) eine Nachricht der ILCA über den Start einer Abstimmung zur Änderung der Klassenregeln erhalten. Der offizielle Beginn der Abstimmung ist der 01.07.2019. Die EurILCA empfiehlt, mit NEIN zu stimmen.

 

Wir, die EurILCA, möchten Euch darüber informieren, dass wir den Begründungen der ILCA für diese Abstimmung nicht zustimmen. Aus folgenden Gründen möchten wir unsere Mitglieder daher aufrufen, mit NEIN zu stimmen: 

 

google translation:

 

Vote on a change of class rules 07/03/2019 The EurILCA opposed this vote and would like to call all members to vote NO. Here you can find the circular of the EurILCA (German translation): Dear Class Chairman, Yesterday morning (02.07.2019) you received a message from the ILCA about the start of a vote to change the class rules. The official start of the vote is 01.07.2019. The EurILCA recommends voting with NO. We, the EurILCA, would like to inform you that we disagree with the reasoning of the ILCA for this vote. For the following reasons we would like to call our members to vote NO:

it follows the know argumentation...

from german Laser class   www.laserklasse.de

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wow that's really a misrepresentation of what the vote is about. and while it is true that boats not called lasers could exist, the class isn't changing any boat names. it's just allowing boats not named 'Lasers' into the mix. I'm also not clear on how it's a blank check for the class to change any part of the boat they'd like without member approval. that's 'pants-on-fire' level misinformation. maybe something is lost in translation, but yikes

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La EurILCA y la AECIL recomiendan votar NO. ¡¡No queremos cambiar el nombre del LASER!! Es importante que los asociados entren y voten.
https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/2019ILCARuleChange
Adjuntamos el archivo de motivos para el NO en el enlace de la web de la clase: http://www.laser-esp.com/html/es/detalle_noticia-582.html

 

blancosail.jpg flechas.jpg4/07/2019
¡¡Recomendación EUrILCA y la junta AECIL por el NO en el cambio de nombre del LASER!! 
 
  imagen582.jpg
 
 

Regatistas,

Tras la actitud unilateral en todas las decisiones que solamente han perjudicado a los regatistas europeos, se recomienda entrar en el formulario adjunto y votar NO.

Adjuntamos el archivo con los motivos redactado por la EurILCA, organización de la que formamos parte y que nos representa en la ILCA.

Enlace para la votación: https://www.surveymonkey.com/r/2019ILCARuleChange

59993526_2206613569434412_4073337139461357568_n.jpg

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23 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

nice. might make a nice new boat name

Or a new class name. All boats will be black. And the logo on the sail will be helmet, you know, that black one. ;)

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5 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

wow that's really a misrepresentation of what the vote is about. and while it is true that boats not called lasers could exist, the class isn't changing any boat names. it's just allowing boats not named 'Lasers' into the mix. I'm also not clear on how it's a blank check for the class to change any part of the boat they'd like without member approval. that's 'pants-on-fire' level misinformation. maybe something is lost in translation, but yikes

Translation from dutch to english seems correct..

I think the simple version told in the boat parks is: Do you really want that the boat is renamed to ILCA Dinghy? Sounds ugly or? Vote no, so it stays Laser...

KISS principle

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2 hours ago, drLaser said:

Six years ago, a young Laser sailor from my club (Istanbul Sailing Club) on the TUR national team went out alone on his Laser late in the afternoon, and could not return by sunset when the wind died down. One of the (many) coaches of the Club noticed him two miles out, and went on his RIB to tow him. By the time he was where he had last seen him, it was already pitch dark. Yells, screams, whistles, no result. He came back to the club, and they went out to search for the guy in five different coach RIBs. (The club has 12 of them.)

While they were out looking for him, the young Laser sailors showed up at the ramp, standing on the bow, rocking his Laser left and right.

So, great. Everything resolved. Maybe somebody will get yelled at a bit. But no, not in a Green country!

The same night, the president, the commodore, the vice-commodore and the sports director meet, and (like in any totalitarian state) come to the conclusion that the best way to deal with such situations is to enforce a total ban on time on water without a coach present next to any sailor!

The next day is a perfect day (for me as GM). Blowing 9-10 knots, a sunny, brilliant day. So, I go to the club, start rigging my (privately owned) Laser 184778 "Deathroll". Full of excitement and anticipation for some great time on the water. Just as I step the mast, a coach comes and says "Doc, you can't go out. After what happened last night, they're not allowing anyone to go out sailing alone."

After I learned all the details of the rule, including that it didn't matter whether I was 17 or 60 years old,  I asked whether there were any coaches around who could accompany me while I sailed. The answer was that all coaches were busy with something, as it was not a "training day". So, c'est la vie, en Turquie! I unrigged. Packed up. Went back home. Angry! Imagine a sailing club where you are not allowed to go out and sail!  I started a rigorous research (Hudson-like research) on how various clubs deal with this around the world. Liability releases, OTW time declaration boards, shore watches, etc. Then I composed a post for my Facebook page, talking about the incident first, and continuing with:

     "Stupid, stupid, stupid!"

and explaining all the more civilized ways other sailing clubs use to deal with situations like this.

In a Blue country, at worst somebody like Gouv could say "We don't give a rats ass whether you want to go sailing. Live with it." At worst. But not in a Green country.

The next day, two things happened:

1) The Laser sailor who couldn't plan his sail right and could not make it back to the Club confronted me and tried to beat me up for calling the Club's decision "stupid". His father was the vice-commodore. His exact words were, "Are you calling my father stupid?" :)

2) I received an e-mail from the Sports Director of the club (one of the three IJ's who translate the RRS into Turkish) , stating that my sailing license has been cancelled, and that I was given 24 hours to take my Laser out of the Club premises. Otherwise, it would be impounded by the police for trespassing. 

So, when Old Yeller said:

I want to scream, "Don't denigrate, but please do criticize, Old Yeller." It's not actually working for us. It's not "to each his own". The above incident is not unique. It's very common in those Green countries. Autocratic, military regimes. Old "iron-curtain" countries. Or in general, countries where true democracy has not been really achieved yet. In such Green countries, the heavy hands of the State trickle down as the heavy hands of the "Federation" which trickle down as the heavy hands of the sailing clubs which trickle down as the heavy hands of the coaches that distribute the Federation/Club procured Lasers to sailors they select. 

In this context, I would like to "beg" ILCA not to continue their policy of endorsing the absence of truly sailor-operated and democratic Laser Class Associations in such Green Districts just because some "Federation" or "Sailing Association" pays the ILCA membership fee of a (made-up) number of Laser sailors in bulk. ILCA can play a role in democratizing the sailing scene in many countries.

PS. Obviously, I'm no longer a members of that club now. I joined a club right next to it. Now, that club has my license under lock and key.

PPS. Another mistake I made before trying to go out sailing that day was discovering 330 translation errors in RRS 2009-2012. (The current Turkish RRS 2017-2020 contains 1978 errors, 256 serious, and 276 critical.)

That's interesting and sad, but even in Australia (where the sailing scene is arguably more anarchic than in most other areas) and the UK there are clubs that operate a "no sailing without a rescue boat" policy, so it's certainly not unknown even in "blue" countries.

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5 hours ago, BruceH-NZ said:

Just one or two. I hear Australia got two in the top 10 at the worlds. Wasn't there a country that got 3 in the top 10? ;)

 

Two of them, in fact - NZ and the UK both got three into the top 10. 

 

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16 minutes ago, Curious said:

That's interesting and sad, but even in Australia (where the sailing scene is arguably more anarchic than in most other areas) and the UK there are clubs that operate a "no sailing without a rescue boat" policy, so it's certainly not unknown even in "blue" countries.

And even in USA, the "land of the free," I know of one club that tried to ban a group of Laser sailors from doing some informal racing/practice without a rescue boat, and of another club who banned a group of dinghy sailors from practicing without safety cover in the winter.  Driven by somewhat legitimate safety concerns and maybe a fear of legal liability I assume.

On the other hand I am free to go and sail my Laser or my RS Aero, on my own or with a few friends, on any day of the year, in any conditions I am stupid enough to think I can handle, as long as I launch from a public beach or ramp as opposed to a private club. I'm not dead yet.

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One sailing club which I belong to had a much better policy.  You signed out on a chalk board with your departure time and intended return time.

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5 hours ago, drLaser said:

Six years ago, a young Laser sailor from my club (Istanbul Sailing Club) on the TUR national team went out alone on his Laser late in the afternoon, and could not return by sunset when the wind died down. One of the (many) coaches of the Club noticed him two miles out, and went on his RIB to tow him. By the time he was where he had last seen him, it was already pitch dark. Yells, screams, whistles, no result. He came back to the club, and they went out to search for the guy in five different coach RIBs. (The club has 12 of them.)

While they were out looking for him, the young Laser sailors showed up at the ramp, standing on the bow, rocking his Laser left and right.

So, great. Everything resolved. Maybe somebody will get yelled at a bit. But no, not in a Green country!

The same night, the president, the commodore, the vice-commodore and the sports director meet, and (like in any totalitarian state) come to the conclusion that the best way to deal with such situations is to enforce a total ban on time on water without a coach present next to any sailor!

The next day is a perfect day (for me as GM). Blowing 9-10 knots, a sunny, brilliant day. So, I go to the club, start rigging my (privately owned) Laser 184778 "Deathroll". Full of excitement and anticipation for some great time on the water. Just as I step the mast, a coach comes and says "Doc, you can't go out. After what happened last night, they're not allowing anyone to go out sailing alone."

After I learned all the details of the rule, including that it didn't matter whether I was 17 or 60 years old,  I asked whether there were any coaches around who could accompany me while I sailed. The answer was that all coaches were busy with something, as it was not a "training day". So, c'est la vie, en Turquie! I unrigged. Packed up. Went back home. Angry! Imagine a sailing club where you are not allowed to go out and sail!  I started a rigorous research (Hudson-like research) on how various clubs deal with this around the world. Liability releases, OTW time declaration boards, shore watches, etc. Then I composed a post for my Facebook page, talking about the incident first, and continuing with:

     "Stupid, stupid, stupid!"

and explaining all the more civilized ways other sailing clubs use to deal with situations like this.

In a Blue country, at worst somebody like Gouv could say "We don't give a rats ass whether you want to go sailing. Live with it." At worst. But not in a Green country.

The next day, two things happened:

1) The Laser sailor who couldn't plan his sail right and could not make it back to the Club confronted me and tried to beat me up for calling the Club's decision "stupid". His father was the vice-commodore. His exact words were, "Are you calling my father stupid?" :)

2) I received an e-mail from the Sports Director of the club (one of the three IJ's who translate the RRS into Turkish) , stating that my sailing license has been cancelled, and that I was given 24 hours to take my Laser out of the Club premises. Otherwise, it would be impounded by the police for trespassing. 

So, when Old Yeller said:

I want to scream, "Don't denigrate, but please do criticize, Old Yeller." It's not actually working for us. It's not "to each his own". The above incident is not unique. It's very common in those Green countries. Autocratic, military regimes. Old "iron-curtain" countries. Or in general, countries where true democracy has not been really achieved yet. In such Green countries, the heavy hands of the State trickle down as the heavy hands of the "Federation" which trickle down as the heavy hands of the sailing clubs which trickle down as the heavy hands of the coaches that distribute the Federation/Club procured Lasers to sailors they select. 

In this context, I would like to "beg" ILCA not to continue their policy of endorsing the absence of truly sailor-operated and democratic Laser Class Associations in such Green Districts just because some "Federation" or "Sailing Association" pays the ILCA membership fee of a (made-up) number of Laser sailors in bulk. ILCA can play a role in democratizing the sailing scene in many countries.

PS. Obviously, I'm no longer a members of that club now. I joined a club right next to it. Now, that club has my license under lock and key.

PPS. Another mistake I made before trying to go out sailing that day was discovering 330 translation errors in RRS 2009-2012. (The current Turkish RRS 2017-2020 contains 1978 errors, 256 serious, and 276 critical.)

It is really impossible to speak in any substantive  way about that story and the comments others have made in response to it without discussing political philosophy, the nature of the state, and concepts of property rights. At this point in my life I prefer to discuss those life and death subjects in a quiet setting one on one. If you ever make it to the Carolinas I would enjoy a friendly conversation over a cup of coffee. I have a Laser regatta to look forward to this weekend. Life is good.

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5 hours ago, Curious said:

Two of them, in fact - NZ and the UK both got three into the top 10. 

 

They  both had six. 

They each had three. 

 

( Years ago I promised Mom’s a subscription to the NA newsletter was good for 100 extra points on the Scholastic Aptitude Test. ( it is an American college entrance exam. High scores are the most important door openers for most schools) 

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

I'm not dead yet.

Ha!! You are probably a zombie who is here to eat our brains!!

the joke is on you!!

this is Sailing Anarchy. There are no brains here.

STARVE zombie boy!!!

 

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16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

They  both had six. 

They each had three. 

 

( Years ago I promised Mom’s a subscription to the NA newsletter was good for 100 extra points on the Scholastic Aptitude Test. ( it is an American college entrance exam. High scores are the most important door openers for most schools) 

True, but when writing on SA with one eye while watching the Tour with the other, close enough is good enough.   :-)

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1 minute ago, Curious said:

True, but when writing on SA with one eye while watching the Tour with the other, close enough is good enough.   :-)

 

1 minute ago, Curious said:

True, but when writing on SA with one eye while watching the Tour with the other, close enough is good enough.   :-)

I’d rather you were sailing 

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I'd been training earlier that day, but by the time I wrote that post it was close to midnight, the temperature would have been below freezing, and ice would have been forming along my shoreline.  I may be dumb but even I'm not quite that dumb!

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5 hours ago, Curious said:

Two of them, in fact - NZ and the UK both got three into the top 10. 

 

But only one country that got 2 in the top 2....

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Yep, but if we were really good we'd have gotten three into the top two.

Can't take up the whole podium; it wouldn't look good.

 

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3 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

If you ever make it to the Carolinas I would enjoy a friendly conversation over a cup of coffee. I have a Laser regatta to look forward to this weekend.

Thanks for the invitation. Next time I'm in the US, it will be Dallas, and Gouv in Austin, of course. I'm just out  the door for a 3-day Laser regatta myself. Best.

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11 hours ago, drLaser said:

Imagine a sailing club where you are not allowed to go out and sail!  

Situation normal at many clubs in the UK. While we are much less regulated on the sea than they seem to be in the USA, inland clubs are almost always on privately owned water, usually water companies or aggregate extraction (gravel pits) and its completely normal for there to be a lease condition that prohibits unaccompanied sailing.

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Video from the Japan meeting has been posted.  Would have been nice to seen Jean-Luc man up and take responsibility for his actions:

 

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4 hours ago, JimC said:

Situation normal at many clubs in the UK. While we are much less regulated on the sea than they seem to be in the USA, inland clubs are almost always on privately owned water, usually water companies or aggregate extraction (gravel pits) and its completely normal for there to be a lease condition that prohibits unaccompanied sailing.

 Technically, not UK. The "Right to roam" legislation in Scotland provides for much more open access (for non-powered craft). It's not always easy to get access to launching sites but use of the water is essentially open (it used to be constrained by the ownership of the  "sporting rights" but that's been superceded).

 My local (inland) club operates a helmsman's responsibility policy. "Safety cover" is in place for racing, training and a few other occasions for confidence building sessions etc but any member is welcome to turn up and go sailing whenever they think it appropriate.

 In general, there's nothing except vehicular/topological access challenges to prevent you turning up to a shoreside here and going for a sail. If you can carry, or wheel, your boat to the water you are allowed to sail or paddle almost anywhere...

 Long may it continue.

Cheers,

              W.

 

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14 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Translation from dutch to english seems correct..

I think the simple version told in the boat parks is: Do you really want that the boat is renamed to ILCA Dinghy? Sounds ugly or? Vote no, so it stays Laser...

KISS principle

Unfortunately the KISS principle here is a direct path to ignorance.

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58 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

 Technically, not UK. The "Right to roam" legislation in Scotland provides for much more open access (for non-powered craft). It's not always easy to get access to launching sites but use of the water is essentially open (it used to be constrained by the ownership of the  "sporting rights" but that's been superceded).

 My local (inland) club operates a helmsman's responsibility policy. "Safety cover" is in place for racing, training and a few other occasions for confidence building sessions etc but any member is welcome to turn up and go sailing whenever they think it appropriate.

 In general, there's nothing except vehicular/topological access challenges to prevent you turning up to a shoreside here and going for a sail. If you can carry, or wheel, your boat to the water you are allowed to sail or paddle almost anywhere...

 Long may it continue.

Cheers,

              W.

 

That explains why I found a roaming Scotsman swimming in my pool last week!

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6 hours ago, JMP said:

Video from the Japan meeting has been posted.  Would have been nice to seen Jean-Luc man up and take responsibility for his actions:

 

I have not had time to watch/listen to this yet. Any "ah ha!" or "oh shit" or "daaaaaammnnn!" mmoments?

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37 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I have not had time to watch/listen to this yet. Any "ah ha!" or "oh shit" or "daaaaaammnnn!" mmoments?

JMP's summary was pretty concise and complete. Second half has many comments from a couple of coaches that are worth watching. 

Big question that I took away: Jean-Luc says there are 7 members to EurILCA Executive Committee but EurILCA website only lists 4. Two are elected at EurILCA a