Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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Greenwhiteblack, yes that compliance sticker on your bike does cost - about $5000 in fees to UCI for each frame design, $3000 for a frame modification, and less for wheels.  Bicycle manufacturers also have their own costs in dealing with the UCI rules, including providing test frames etc - and of course that would all be passed to the consumer.  So the buyer of a new bicycle is sending money to the governing body of the sport, just as the buyer of a new Laser does. 

Where I live, each racing cyclist sends as about as much EACH YEAR as the buyer of a new Laser sends to WS, and subsidises the pro level racing.  WS and Laser look great by contrast!

 

 

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23 hours ago, Wess said:

Curious - you have been one of the no BS posters in the past right now you are flat out BS-ing. You picked skiing. Not me. Bad choice. I know skiing well. Go check FIS. It is not the same as what WS is doing. Not even close. If you are going to keep claiming it at least produce the document. The FIS stuff is all there for everyone to see. I can even tell you where to look. Anyway if you want to keep repeating BS have at it. But I dare you to produce the FIS document to show this is the same as WS. Double dog dare you (is that even a thing.... gotta ask grandkids). Seems like you are trolling and Homie don’t play that.

Help me with the video Tiller. Have to de rig and get back to dinner.

The FIS financials show a loss of about $300k on what appears to be their technical approval system, which you must know about.  Someone pays for that. Unlike UCI the FIS does not publish certification fees but I have assumed that the FIS recovered the cost of approval from manufacturers, who would pass it on to consumers- whether the individual consumer races or not.

The bottom line is that in sports, we all end up paying for something we don’t use.  That’s inevitable.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

True, but to press any TM holder to give up his rights, before he can get a building license, when any other new builder may join the club without licensing their trademarks ( or does Far East have to license their TM "Far East"to become a builder ?) will be difficult to enforce

I agree that it would be an awkward position for ILCA as they would be seen to be having different standards for each builder which doesn't exactly constitute FRAND. However, as @MR.CLEAN mentioned in his interview on SI, I think the bargaining chips no longer belong to LP thanks to the rule change. 

7 minutes ago, Curious said:

The bottom line is that in sports, we all end up paying for something we don’t use.  That’s inevitable.

It's been a while since I've been involved with basketball or baseball, but if I remember correctly, you can buy basketballs or baseballs which are exactly the same as the ones used in the NBA/MLB, and bear the NBA and MLB logos. Those logos aren't on there without someone paying for them. You can also buy non NBA or MLB branded basketballs and baseballs. 

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You guys crack me up. Seriously. Do you realize you are so myopic and brain dead that you have just aligned yourselves with the LPE  position and are in opposition with the ILCA position.  But no doubt you will not accept that reality either. God this is fun.

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I have been hoping the Laser was going to recover but the more I learn about the state of the class, the sport, the manufacturers and governing body the more it starts to look rather awful.

I'm not against anyone making money selling a product, in this case, a boat. After all I can pick and choose.

The situation that exists now is that there is a whole host of "hangers on" who want a piece of the pie. Or ones who aren't happy with some of the pie they want it all. 

I guess I grew up in a sporting world full of amateurs. Today there are no amateurs. That is ok, I suppose. To each, his own. 

But I really can't stomach the idea my kid should subsidize elite sailing in any way. ILCA, WS and IOC seem have strayed far from their mandates. Very sad. 

I pretty sure the new rigs and new fees will fragment the class and shrink the base of grass roots sailors. 

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58 minutes ago, Wess said:

You guys crack me up. Seriously. Do you realize you are so myopic and brain dead that you have just aligned yourselves with the LPE  position and are in opposition with the ILCA position.  But no doubt you will not accept that reality either. God this is fun.

The ILCA accepts that organisations that run the sport need funds and that not every cent can be returned in services to each individual member, which seems to be what you are  calling for.

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1 hour ago, Schteiny said:

I pretty sure the new rigs and new fees will fragment the class and shrink the base of grass roots sailors. 

i personally don't share this opinion. New fees only apply to new boats and i'd wager *most* grassroots sailors aren't buying brand new boats. anyways here's the 49er perspective on the new fees:

https://49er.org/blog/new-fees-added-to-all-olympic-boats/

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Curious - You may want to read up on this a bit more.  This is getting comical.

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13 hours ago, tillerman said:

@Wess did not vote?

Good for him.

It's the non-members who vote in ILCA elections who really are the scum of the earth..

I cannttt stand those guys.





 

You missed the point

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

The ILCA accepts that organisations that run the sport need funds and that not every cent can be returned in services to each individual member, which seems to be what you are  calling for.

If a sport is to be run professionally it needs funding.  That is obvious. The point you are missing though is that if you buy a new ILCA-approved boat you are not automatically a class member - but you are paying them money.  You have no choice but to pay yet more money if you want to get ANY benefit for the money you initially were forced to pay.

Making a builder chose between only supplying the racing community or the casual community (because she is prohibited from building fee-free Club Lasers if she wishes to sell race approved Lasers/ILCAs) does not meet the Fair of FRAND.

It is also a clear indication that this coup only benefits the privileged racing community and ILCA is only representing a narrow sample of Laser owners.

Requiring someone to buy something they do not want in order to access something they do want is pretty much the definition of unfair.

 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

God this is fun.

How dare you have fun.  This is serious business. Hobbies are at stake (though fortunately no Hobies). 

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5 hours ago, Wess said:

You guys crack me up. Seriously. Do you realize you are so myopic and brain dead that you have just aligned yourselves with the LPE  position and are in opposition with the ILCA position.  But no doubt you will not accept that reality either. God this is fun.

Is your world only black or white? You were the one here that said things about Bruce like "did not follow his class elected leaders" before you completely changed your position. What's that? Can you only align either completely with ILCA or EURILCA? Can you only follow your "leaders" No own brain? JL is your god? I'm not pro LPE nor pro PSA or ILCA or whatsorever, I'm just saying what I think is correct, and what hopefully is the best to get out of this mess. 

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Its well established that World Sailing were forced into this mess when they were reported to EU regulation. Its very little to do with WS bureaucrats, even less to do with the ILCA and much more to do with EU bureaucrats. What would happen if another big bloc introduced trading laws that directly conflicted with the EU ones I dread to think.

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3 hours ago, sosoomii said:

If a sport is to be run professionally it needs funding.  That is obvious. The point you are missing though is that if you buy a new ILCA-approved boat you are not automatically a class member - but you are paying them money.  You have no choice but to pay yet more money if you want to get ANY benefit for the money you initially were forced to pay.

Making a builder chose between only supplying the racing community or the casual community (because she is prohibited from building fee-free Club Lasers if she wishes to sell race approved Lasers/ILCAs) does not meet the Fair of FRAND.

It is also a clear indication that this coup only benefits the privileged racing community and ILCA is only representing a narrow sample of Laser owners.

Requiring someone to buy something they do not want in order to access something they do want is pretty much the definition of unfair.

 

I’m not missing it at all. That’s why I used the example of bicycles, where the same thing applies. The average weekend road cyclist pays for the fact that the manufacturers have to pay the governing body to get the bike design approved for racing, despite the fact that the average cyclist won’t race.

That is not unfair- it’s the way the whole world has to work because it can’t work efficiently any other way. If I joined your club I would probably never use the rescue service - but I’d still be hit for the cost of the boats. My own dinghy club fees pay for beginner boats I don’t use.  My other class’ fees helped send juniors to the worlds - and I can’t access those funds at my age. My taxes pay for jails, hospitals and  schools I don’t use. I went to the pub the other day - we just wanted a drink in the sun in the beer garden but the cost of our wine included a bit for the costs of lighting and the pub building.  I have to pay those taxes and club fees to access what I do want, and we all do it every day. 

If you and Wess want a world in which no one ever pays for something they don’t want you’ll have to keep on looking   You don’t have it on this planet or in your own club and class 

 

 

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By the way, you don’t have to pay more money to ILCA to get the benefit of plaque fees.  I’m the only ILCA member at my club but ILCA provides the races that keep me sailing Lasers and that inspire me to provide the (free) coaching and training that the other sailors at my club appreciate.  They also read the websites and see the videos.

They get plenty of value for the tiny sums they provide  - which is just one reason the Laser class is so huge at all levels 

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2 hours ago, Curious said:

I’m not missing it at all. That’s why I used the example of bicycles, where the same thing applies. The average weekend road cyclist pays for the fact that the manufacturers have to pay the governing body to get the bike design approved for racing, despite the fact that the average cyclist won’t race.

That is not unfair- it’s the way the whole world has to work because it can’t work efficiently any other way. If I joined your club I would probably never use the rescue service - but I’d still be hit for the cost of the boats. My own dinghy club fees pay for beginner boats I don’t use.  My other class’ fees helped send juniors to the worlds - and I can’t access those funds at my age. My taxes pay for jails, hospitals and  schools I don’t use. I went to the pub the other day - we just wanted a drink in the sun in the beer garden but the cost of our wine included a bit for the costs of lighting and the pub building.  I have to pay those taxes and club fees to access what I do want, and we all do it every day. 

If you and Wess want a world in which no one ever pays for something they don’t want you’ll have to keep on looking   You don’t have it on this planet or in your own club and class 

 

 

You are still missing the point and your analogies are fallacious. There is an obvious difference between choosing not to use a service you have paid for and being forced to pay for a service you are prohibited from using without further payment.

 

LP (and others?) are willing and able to make a non-race version of the boat that would be cheaper as it would not have to include fees payable to WS and ILCA.  It is WS (or ILCA? can't remember…) that insists that no such boat shall be sold.  That is an unfair restraint of trade and also unfair on sailing schools, sea cadets, archipelago cruisers, holiday companies and probably even club racers who will be subsidising a privileged few who chose to race in ILCA events. 

 

No argument from me that class associations are good value, never said otherwise.

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2 hours ago, JimC said:

Its well established that World Sailing were forced into this mess when they were reported to EU regulation. Its very little to do with WS bureaucrats, even less to do with the ILCA and much more to do with EU bureaucrats. What would happen if another big bloc introduced trading laws that directly conflicted with the EU ones I dread to think.

 

Yes, but WS is based in the UK and must follow UK and EU law. 

Propably including respecting designers copyrights and TM holders rights. 

Could be different if the were based in the USA or North Korea. 

In regards to the conversation with GWB about forcing LPE to license their trademark and about the Club Boats: As said I don't think that these are good arguments to not grant a building license to LPE. 

But: from what we know LPE already has breached the old agreements:

1. Building rights agreement

2. LCM - Inspections

3. LCM - confidentially of LCM

If any new builder would breach the new agreements, say they don't pay royalties, build out of spec, etc they would just lose the license to build class legal boats and propably  never get it back. If the party that has to grant the building license on FRAND terms ( propably GSL) could say that LPE is not reliable due to their actions in the past, they eventually have the right to not grant a new license. If I were working at GSL I would at least want to have the unpaid royalties of 1 up 1,5 Million $, before I even start thinking about a new License. FR won't like that, I'm afraid. 

Of course, that's all speculating, no idea what's really  going on between the parties. 

1 hour ago, JimC said:

 

 

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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

You are still missing the point and your analogies are fallacious. There is an obvious difference between choosing not to use a service you have paid for and being forced to pay for a service you are prohibited from using without further payment.

 

LP (and others?) are willing and able to make a non-race version of the boat that would be cheaper as it would not have to include fees payable to WS and ILCA.  It is WS (or ILCA? can't remember…) that insists that no such boat shall be sold.  That is an unfair restraint of trade and also unfair on sailing schools, sea cadets, archipelago cruisers, holiday companies and probably even club racers who will be subsidising a privileged few who chose to race in ILCA events. 

 

No argument from me that class associations are good value, never said otherwise.

No, the analogy of cycling, for example, is NOT fallacious.  A road cyclist is effectively “forced” to pay for a service ( UCI approval) when they buy a new bike, but they are prohibited from using that service without further payment - in their case, normally joining a club, paying a license fee, or paying for a short -term license.  That is just like the situation you describe.

Many class or club fees include components that partly pay for services, from boat storage to beers st the bar, you are prohibited from using without further payment. Championship profits often subsidise other events - but ONLY after those who attend make further payments.

The idea that it is only a “privileged few” who can compete in ILCA events and that holiday company clients are something very different is unusual.  Last I heard, spending a fortnight sailing a Laser at a resort in Greece wasn’t actually a lower-grade activity than being amongst the “privileged “ ILCA masters sailors who get to enjoy a wet winter weekend regatta at Weston on 20 year old boats. 

I also thought it was a free market and that if you didn’t want to buy a Laser you didn’t have to.

I look forward to your reports of the way you have ensured that your own club and class do not charge for a service that cannot be used without further payment.

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, jgh66 said:

Yes, but WS is based in the UK and must follow UK and EU law. 

Technically I believe World Sailing is based in the Isle of Man, which is not in the EU. It just has an office in England.

It is worth watching the details. The trademark is help by Velum which is I believe HQ somewhere convenient. The old builder was Laser Performance Europe, HQ in the UK, which I believe will soon be completely inactive. A new Laser builder would be Laser Performance LLC, which has headquarters in the USA and offices in England. I don't know if LP LLC ever signed the contracts with ILCA or others.

I have no idea what the significance of all these different companies and locations is, but I bet it *is* significant.

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7 hours ago, sosoomii said:

How dare you have fun.  This is serious business. Hobbies are at stake (though fortunately no Hobies). 

LOVE Hobies!!  They were as much fun - maybe even more - than Lasers back in the day. Wonder how many lemmings realize that was a builder controlled class back in the hey-day. 

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1 minute ago, Wess said:

LOVE Hobies!!  They were as much fun - maybe even more - than Lasers back in the day. Wonder how many lemmings realize that was a builder controlled class back in the hey-day. 

I love Hobies too.  Had a 16 for a few years.  Pretty cool feeling to be trapped out while solo sailing and the windward hull just skimming above the water.  Now that I'm older I get a kick out of the Hobie Wave.  It's a blast in anything over a solid 12 knots of breeze.  

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11 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I love Hobies too.  Had a 16 for a few years.  Pretty cool feeling to be trapped out while solo sailing and the windward hull just skimming above the water.  Now that I'm older I get a kick out of the Hobie Wave.  It's a blast in anything over a solid 12 knots of breeze.  

I hear you.  I scratch that itch with ever increasingly large multihulls.  My wife and I love that even with our most recent you can sit out on the float with a tiller extension in your hand, close your eyes, and you wouldn't know if you were on a Hobie or Laser or whatever,.  Small boat sailing thrill and feel in 2 stateroom, hot and cold running water stand up shower, full headroom, great galley w fridge and freezer 20 knots SOG cruiser that can self sustain endlessly on a hook.  If you end up owing me rum come on up with the bottle and take a ride.  Lightning strike is forcing a 2nd major refit ahead of schedule but hope to be back in the water soon.  But hey, stop distracting from my fishing.  Got to do some more trolling between announcements.   

Oh and @RobbieB - Get a UFO.  You will not regret it!!!

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16 minutes ago, Wess said:

I hear you.  I scratch that itch with ever increasingly large multihulls.  My wife and I love that even with our most recent you can sit out on the float with a tiller extension in your hand, close your eyes, and you wouldn't know if you were on a Hobie or Laser or whatever,.  Small boat sailing thrill and feel in 2 stateroom, hot and cold running water stand up shower, full headroom, great galley w fridge and freezer 20 knots SOG cruiser that can self sustain endlessly on a hook.  If you end up owing me rum come on up with the bottle and take a ride.  Lightning strike is forcing a 2nd major refit ahead of schedule but hope to be back in the water soon.  But hey, stop distracting from my fishing.  Got to do some more trolling between announcements.   

Oh and @RobbieB - Get a UFO.  You will not regret it!!!

Sounds like a date. ;-).  We have a club member who has a UFO.  I've been looking at it a bit.  Need to take it out for a ride.  Does not look as intimidating as a Wasp, (we have a few of those too, but they seem to like life best on a dolly...).

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

No, the analogy of cycling, for example, is NOT fallacious.  A road cyclist is effectively “forced” to pay for a service ( UCI approval) when they buy a new bike, but they are prohibited from using that service without further payment - in their case, normally joining a club, paying a license fee, or paying for a short -term license.  That is just like the situation you describe.

None of the road bikes i used over the last 50 or so years had an UCI approval...  I checked the KNWU website (in Dutch only)_ and there is absolute nothing about UCI approved frames/bikes. Join a club, bring your bike and start racing... As far as I can see this is only for pro's. No need for amateur racing... 

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People are outraged that they might pay a fee to World Sailing on the new boat they are not going to buy. Seriously; this is the same phenomenon as when an airline goes on strike and people who weren't going anywhere are aggrieved that the trip they were never going to take gets cancelled. Who is it that is buying all these brand new sailboats? If boatbuilders knew that they wouldn't go tits up all the time.  

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Somewhat (ir)relevant anecdote:

10:30 PM Istanbul time. I just ran out of soft drinks at home. Stepped out to walk to the corner grocery store. It was already closed. So, I looked around for any restaurants that might still be open. There was one across the avenue. I went there, grabbed a Coke from the frig, and walked over to the cash register. The guy said, "Eight liras, please." Surprised, I replied, "Are you kidding? That's twice the normal price!" He smiled and said, "Well, I pay insurance, I pay rent, I pay the air conditioning, I pay the salaries of the cooks and the waiters and the dishwasher..." I objected, saying, "But I'm not one of your dinner customers. I'm not making use of any of those services you provide." He smiled again, and politely said (in Turkish), "Eh, dava edin beni!" (That translates as "So sue me!")

I cracked up! Laughed and laughed and laughed, all of you in my mind. The guy had no idea why I was laughing, but he laughed, too.

:)

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6 hours ago, torrid said:

I wonder how many amateurs by pro bikes just because they have the money.

In short, a lot.  There a lot of standing jokes about it.   How do you pick a dentist in the bunch, how do you pick the masters riders on the track etc... etc...

a bike shop that supported me for a long time would always keep one $20k bike in the floor.  They helped inflate overall sales and they would always sell a couple a year.  

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8 hours ago, Curious said:

No, the analogy of cycling, for example, is NOT fallacious.  A road cyclist is effectively “forced” to pay for a service ( UCI approval) when they buy a new bike, but they are prohibited from using that service without further payment - in their case, normally joining a club, paying a license fee, or paying for a short -term license.  That is just like the situation you describe.

Many class or club fees include components that partly pay for services, from boat storage to beers st the bar, you are prohibited from using without further payment. Championship profits often subsidise other events - but ONLY after those who attend make further payments.

The idea that it is only a “privileged few” who can compete in ILCA events and that holiday company clients are something very different is unusual.  Last I heard, spending a fortnight sailing a Laser at a resort in Greece wasn’t actually a lower-grade activity than being amongst the “privileged “ ILCA masters sailors who get to enjoy a wet winter weekend regatta at Weston on 20 year old boats. 

I also thought it was a free market and that if you didn’t want to buy a Laser you didn’t have to.

I look forward to your reports of the way you have ensured that your own club and class do not charge for a service that cannot be used without further payment.

 

 

 

It is fallacious because any bike manufacturer can perfectly well build a non race bike and sell it without needing to pay UCI anything. A racing Laser builder will not be allowed to build a non race Laser.  

The rest I simply can’t be bothered with because you are just arguing black is white.  The font of all knowledge, wikipedia, defines the Fair of FRAND as:

Fair relates mainly to the underlying licensing terms. Drawing from anti-trust/competition law; fair terms means terms which are not anti-competitive and that would not be considered unlawful if imposed by a dominant firm in their relative market. Examples of terms that would breach this commitment are: requiring licensees to buy licenses for products that they do not want in order to get a license for the products they do want or requiring licensees to take licenses to certain unwanted or unneeded patents to obtain licenses to other desired patents (bundling); requiring licensees to license their own IP to the licensor for free (free grant backs); and including restrictive conditions on licensees’ dealings with competitors (mandatory exclusivity).

I know we are not talking about the FRAND part of the debate, but none the less this practise of banning club Lasers would appear unfair.

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See also, restraint of trade 

Restraints of trade is a common law doctrine relating to the enforceability of contractual restrictions on freedom to conduct business. It is a precursor of modern competition law. In an old leading case of Mitchel v Reynolds (1711) Lord Smith LC said,[1]

it is the privilege of a trader in a free country, in all matters not contrary to law, to regulate his own mode of carrying it on according to his own discretion and choice. If the law has regulated or restrained his mode of doing this, the law must be obeyed. But no power short of the general law ought to restrain his free discretion.

A contractual undertaking not to trade is void and unenforceable against the promisor as contrary to the public policy of promoting trade, unless the restraint of trade is reasonable to protect the interest of the purchaser of a business.[2] Restraints of trade can also appear in post-termination restrictive covenants in employment contracts.

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Just a reminder that the World Sailing Olympic Equipment policy includes FRAND, it isn't equivalent to FRAND.

7 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I know we are not talking about the FRAND part of the debate, but none the less this practise of banning club Lasers would appear unfair.

So we are talking about the setting of the game rules within which FRAND principles are followed.

The so called 'club Lasers' are not part of the game unless they are no longer are 'club Lasers'.

This makes perfect sense to me.

An analogy might be motor vehicles. Anyone can build a vehicle, but only those approved can use the road.

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10 hours ago, sosoomii said:

There is an obvious difference between choosing not to use a service you have paid for and being forced to pay for a service you are prohibited from using without further payment.

 

DogPark.jpg

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From german class,FB page translated by google:

.

 

With tension we had the 1.8. expected, the date on which documents requested by World Sailing should be submitted to the FRAND Directive. Below is the official statement from World Sailing. Conclusion: We do not know anything yet. The ILCA leadership has not felt it necessary (despite promises and multiple requests) to provide World Sailing documents to members of the ILCA World Council. It is therefore not clear to what extent they agree with the documents published by Laser Performance and whether there is still the prospect of an agreement between the parties.

 

Well, at at least I'm also asking myself what has happened to the agreement between the builders...

 

 

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15 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

The ILCA leadership has not felt it necessary (despite promises and multiple requests) to provide World Sailing documents to members of the ILCA World Council.

@jgh66, do you have any ideas about which documents DLAS is referring to above? Wasn't the World Council aware of the contents of these documents, when we were aware of them as regular sailors? Or is it some other documents DLAS is referring to?

I find it funny that we can guess which parts of the documents (altered and then signed and) published by Laser Performance ILCA might not agree with, but the WC members can't guess. I can't even understand why it is relevant at this stage to know whether and where ILCA and LP agree or disagree in a document to be submitted to WS if both ILCA and LP are not parties to it. It's WS's approval that is important. Maybe there's more to what is being asked here. Is what you quoted the full extent of the announcement on the DLAS website? 

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1 hour ago, drLaser said:

@jgh66, do you have any ideas about which documents DLAS is referring to above? Wasn't the World Council aware of the contents of these documents, when we were aware of them as regular sailors? Or is it some other documents DLAS is referring to?

I find it funny that we can guess which parts of the documents (altered and then signed and) published by Laser Performance ILCA might not agree with, but the WC members can't guess. I can't even understand why it is relevant at this stage to know whether and where ILCA and LP agree or disagree in a document to be submitted to WS if both ILCA and LP are not parties to it. It's WS's approval that is important. Maybe there's more to what is being asked here. Is what you quoted the full extent of the announcement on the DLAS website? 

I have no idea which documents they mean. I think many people would like to know what would have happensd with a "no" vote. 

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Mit Spannung hatten wir den 1.8. erwartet, den Termin, an dem die von World Sailing verlangten Dokumente zur FRAND-Richtlinie vorgelegt werden sollten. Unten findet Ihr die offizielle Stellungnahme von World Sailing.

Fazit: Wir wissen noch nichts. Die ILCA - Führung hat es bisher auch nicht für notwendig gehalten (trotz gegenteiliger Versprechungen und mehrfacher Nachfragen) die an World Sailing gesandten Dokumente den Mitgliedern des ILCA World Councils zur Verfügung zu stellen. Es ist also nicht klar, inwieweit diese mit den von Laser Performance veröffentlichen Dokumenten übereinstimmen und ob es noch Aussicht auf eine Einigung der Parteien gibt.

That' s the full text, it follows the WS annoucement on SailorsVoice

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Has the German Laser Class Association verified the votes from its region yet?  Last I hear they were not cooperating

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1 minute ago, jgh66 said:

I have no idea which documents they mean. I think many people would like to know what would have happensd with a "no" vote. 

With a no vote, World Sailing would have met, and discussed what to do.

With the documents, there are a lot of statements made. Recently there has been misinformation relating to Jean-Luc and Alex not being informed. Where I have been able to check, those statements have lacked substance. I have not been able to check at this point, because I don't know which specific documents are being referred to either.

There is a possibility that the statement:

2 hours ago, jgh66 said:

The ILCA leadership has not felt it necessary (despite promises and multiple requests) to provide World Sailing documents to members of the ILCA World Council.

is benign, though equally that it is made with intent (as they have been made before, for example at the EU masters meeting.)

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6 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

The ILCA leadership has not felt it necessary (despite promises and multiple requests) to provide World Sailing documents to members of the ILCA World Council

The google translation maybe is a bit weird. 

What they said in german is:The ILCA leadership has not felt it be necessary to send a copy of the documents, they have send to WS to all WC members. 

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6 hours ago, drLaser said:

Somewhat (ir)relevant anecdote:

10:30 PM Istanbul time. I just ran out of soft drinks at home. Stepped out to walk to the corner grocery store. It was already closed. So, I looked around for any restaurants that might still be open. There was one across the avenue. I went there, grabbed a Coke from the frig, and walked over to the cash register. The guy said, "Eight liras, please." Surprised, I replied, "Are you kidding? That's twice the normal price!" He smiled and said, "Well, I pay insurance, I pay rent, I pay the air conditioning, I pay the salaries of the cooks and the waiters and the dishwasher..." I objected, saying, "But I'm not one of your dinner customers. I'm not making use of any of those services you provide." He smiled again, and politely said (in Turkish), "Eh, dava edin beni!" (That translates as "So sue me!")

I cracked up! Laughed and laughed and laughed, all of you in my mind. The guy had no idea why I was laughing, but he laughed, too.

:)

You should have bought a Pepsi. I mean at Aero. Wait am I logged on as Tiller or...

For gosh would these folks settle or litigate already.  I have a bet to win.  

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8 hours ago, Otterbox said:

Has the German Laser Class Association verified the votes from its region yet?  Last I hear they were not cooperating

On FB the german class stated following, so it seems they have verified:

The result of the change of the class rule is available The change of the class rule (the name "Laser" is removed from the definition of a boat builder) has been accepted by the majority of the members. At the moment there are 81% YES and 19% NO votes. The result will still change slightly as some class unions have not yet checked if the voters are members. In Germany, the voting participation was unfortunately only just under 12%. Overall, Europe (yet nearly 70% of ILCA members are Europeans) only has about 1,000 of the more than 3,000 votes cast. The exact wording of the ILCA communication can be found here: https://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/08/12/ilca-class-rule-change-approved-by-members/ If you still want to find out about possible election manipulations, you can do so here: https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/07/laser-update-vote-rigging-for-class.html. We will follow the course of the election exam critically.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

You should have bought a Pepsi.

I couldn't. Almost all of these restaurants sign contracts to either sell Coke or Pepsi (but not both) in return for the cooler of refrigerators provided by the distributor of the brand. In spite of the fact that (supposedly, in the land of libertarian Oz)

13 hours ago, sosoomii said:

A contractual undertaking not to trade is void and unenforceable against the promisor as contrary to the public policy of promoting trade.

As I emphasized earlier several times in this thread, World Beverage is interested in opening to perfect competition on a FRAND basis not only the manufacturing or production of soft drinks but the whole "supply chain" itself, including the bottle and can suppliers, and including who can be a distributor and which soft drinks can be sold in each restaurant.

What you are experiencing today is just the tip of the iceberg. Personally, I long for the days when I will visit a single restaurant, and be able to check out both a Pepsi and a Coke and a Cola Turka and a Daft Cola and a Jaz Cola and a Pop Cola, in both their regular and light or diet versions, (and maybe even an early Colette Cola on display,) to see how cool and how different any one of them is. 

;-)

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

LP’s Facebook page response to the rule change  vote results is difficult to put into words 

I know. Pretty stunning. Do you think it was reviewed by their lawyers?

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

LP’s Facebook page response to the rule change  vote results is difficult to put into words 

I know. Who would have expected it? Totally unbelievable.

It's going to be difficult for ILCA to deal with this.

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

It's going to be difficult for ILCA to deal with this.

Do you have a specific link, please?

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16 hours ago, drLaser said:

Somewhat (ir)relevant anecdote:

10:30 PM Istanbul time. I just ran out of soft drinks at home. Stepped out to walk to the corner grocery store. It was already closed. So, I looked around for any restaurants that might still be open. There was one across the avenue. I went there, grabbed a Coke from the frig, and walked over to the cash register. The guy said, "Eight liras, please." Surprised, I replied, "Are you kidding? That's twice the normal price!" He smiled and said, "Well, I pay insurance, I pay rent, I pay the air conditioning, I pay the salaries of the cooks and the waiters and the dishwasher..." I objected, saying, "But I'm not one of your dinner customers. I'm not making use of any of those services you provide." He smiled again, and politely said (in Turkish), "Eh, dava edin beni!" (That translates as "So sue me!")

I cracked up! Laughed and laughed and laughed, all of you in my mind. The guy had no idea why I was laughing, but he laughed, too.

:)

Personally I would have ordered a hot chocolate.

319602620_ScreenShot2019-08-16at8_09_06AM.thumb.png.5f733e0b278e48ea8827e700f2a60c30.png

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Surprised but seeing the 79/21 vote, it does appear that LPE has taken to heart the advice from Charles Caleb Colton  ´ When you got nothing to say, say nothing'

Although you would not imagine that will last too long

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4 hours ago, jgh66 said:

 If you still want to find out about possible election manipulations, you can do so here: https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/07/laser-update-vote-rigging-for-class.html. We will follow the course of the election exam critically.

Here is the correct link, even if it is bullshit:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/07/laser-update-vote-rigging-for-class.html

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27 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Speculation Nation.  For those who don't understand the statement above means precisely dick.

What is more significant is that the German Laser Assn (Alexandra Behrens) chose to include it with posting the results to the association.

I'm unclear why Alexandra would choose to do this.

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Hmm,  does anyone know the voting from the German Class Association went, also Italy?

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2 minutes ago, Otterbox said:

Hmm,  does anyone know the voting from the German Class Association went, also Italy?

not the way they wanted it to go, that's for sure

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21 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

not the way they wanted it to go, that's for sure

I think they went exactly the way they wanted to go, however that may not have been to the liking of their executive! ;) 

I think come reelection time, there is a good chance the executive may change.

---

23 minutes ago, Otterbox said:

Hmm,  does anyone know the voting from the German Class Association went, also Italy?

I wonder if Italy knows themselves! I've tried to get some sense from the people I know, but have not succeeded. (They don't know either).

---

One thing for sure, there seems to be a ton of people in both Italy and Germany that voted yes - my impression was that the vote was not one-sided.

---

Wondering when the EurILCA elections will be held and whether Jean-Luc will survive as chair.

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18 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I'm unclear why Alexandra would choose to do this.

Could it be suicidal tendencies?

Maybe to take some of the responsibility off of Jean-Luc's and Heini's shoulders? A spirit of sharing the good and the bad, till death do us apart? 

Maybe just a desire to enhance the "respect" we are asked to automatically show to her and other officers? (Tongue in cheek.)

I'm kidding, of course. Along the lines of my recent posts.

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35 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

Wondering when the EurILCA elections will be held and whether Jean-Luc will survive as chair

Could be related to the question what would have happened with a "No" vote... Some Members could become quite angry, when they realize that JL and Heini would have been responsible for losing Olympic Status, I believe. Until now nothing seems to be really clear, no info from ILCA, nothing from LP.... 

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1 minute ago, jgh66 said:

Could be related to the question what would have happened with a "No" vote... Some Members could become quite angry, when they realize that JL and Heini would have been responsible for losing Olympic Status, I believe. Until now nothing seems to be really clear, no info from ILCA, nothing from LP.... 

The same issues are at play - there seem to be quite a few who believe that Jean-Luc, Heini, Alexandra and Beat had actually increased the risk of losing Olympic status. There seems to be a small group who are desperate for that not to be publicly discussed. (Not here on SA).

What is interesting is that Alexandra is in direct communication with Farzad.

---

ILCA has nothing to add - their direction is pretty clear, and they are waiting for World Sailing - just like everyone else.

LP are likely to be fighting other battles right now.

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26 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The proper question: 

 

Why the hell aren’t ALL National Association officers having regular productive communication with Farzad?

 

Perhaps because they are in bed with PSA.  And waiting to find out who WS is in bed with if push comes to shove comes to litigation.  Its looking like it might approach a full year without an approved and fully functioning building for LPE's old territory.  Hope PSA sends more boats soon. I want something new and nice to drink my rum on!

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The proper question: 

 

Why the hell aren’t ALL National Association officers having regular productive communication with Farzad?

 

I believe that has been attempted for years.  Perhaps Farzad should try regular, productive communication with National Officers?

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On 8/15/2019 at 3:02 AM, JimC said:

Its well established that World Sailing were forced into this mess when The Competition Commission decided an unrelated case in an unrelated sport that clearly had worldwide sporting implications they were reported to EU regulation. Its very little to do with WS bureaucrats, even less to do with the ILCA and much more to do with EU bureaucrats regulators preventing monopolies as EU law requires. What would happen if another big bloc introduced trading laws that directly conflicted with the EU ones I dread to think.

FIxed part 1 and 2 for you.  Answer to 3:  Which bloc is going to promulgate pro-monopoly rules?

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On 8/15/2019 at 8:02 AM, JimC said:

Technically I believe World Sailing is based in the Isle of Man, which is not in the EU. It just has an office in England.

World Sailing's principal place of business is in London, therefore it must follow EU rules.  Place of incorporation is irrelevant.

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18 hours ago, sosoomii said:

See also, restraint of trade 

Restraints of trade is a common law doctrine

i think everyone should get their law from wikipedia!

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11 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

FIxed part 1 and 2 for you.  Answer to 3:  Which bloc is going to promulgate pro-monopoly rules?

The USAnians?

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Speculation Nation.  For those who don't understand the statement above means precisely dick.

He's also setting himself up for a lawsuit.  

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26 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

 

 

Why the hell aren’t ALL National Association officers having regular productive communication with Farzad?

 

because lessons

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42 pages. Anyone got a synopsis?

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2 minutes ago, Raz'r said:

The USAnians?

only if Trump can't buy Greenland

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Just now, Raz'r said:

42 pages. Anyone got a synopsis?

Non existing increasingly expensive boats.  And lawyers.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

only if Trump can't buy Greenland

image.png.6ff9f74d739cbd5675c26fbc7fd067a7.png

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There are dozens of lawsuits possible in this mess. But who wants to take he risk and pay the bills. Thus far only PSA,  and BKI have been willing to initiate and pay for litigation. LPE, ILCA and WS were forced into it. That was round 1. Who knows on round 2. We await a settlement/agreement or a lawsuit.

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I stumbled across an Italian website with what appeared to be a discussion (in Italian) about ILCA and World Sailing and the recent Monkey Survey poll so I put it through Google Translate and here it is for your reading pleasure. Please note the opinions below are not my own so don't shoot the messenger.

For those of you fluent in Italian the original is at http://www.saily.it/it/article/caso-ilca-laser-di-male-peggio
 

 

Quote

 

ILCA-Laser case, from bad to worse

The ILCA international class "announces" the results of the vote (defined by many as "farce") online on the possibility of getting rid of the constraints of the registered trademark "Laser", and therefore changing its name to the most famous and widespread drift of sailing history. Apart from the clear invalidity of the vote, and waiting for the reactions of World Sailing, the hypothesis-show arises: a new International Laser Class!

 

The very idea of changing a boat's name is already defined: it is not done. It is not done with the names of the boats at the change of owner. You should not even consider if the change concerns an iconic product, loved and experienced worldwide by hundreds of thousands of sailors, from 10 to 90 years, from the beaches to the Olympics. Those who give birth and implement such a plan are not fully familiar with the maritime culture. Moreover, Eric Faust, Tracy Usher and company, the out-of-control "board" of ILCA, which was the association of laserists, have accustomed us to head shots, in spite of rules and internal democracy.

The "vote" (mandatory quotation marks), which also had to arrive by August 1st and instead needed some kind of post-release "adjustments" before being made public in August (!), So out of the time required by World Sailing to arm the Olympic designation (yes, but of the Laser ...), it even came out with various versions. First there was talk of 81% of Yes, then it gradually went down to 69% (however above the requested 66% of voters, while it is not clear what the quorum was), as if we were at the abacus. And it is still not clear if the counting has arrived from all countries.

Italy stood out precisely because of the lack of data communication. AICL, the young Italian association of the class, which has taken the place of the historic Assolaser (due to known events of which much has been talked about and now belong to the past, but perhaps today should also be read in the light of recent developments), this was found unexpected hot potato. President Gianni Galli, a former racer, discoverer of talents and coach, was thinking of managing the thriving activity of the largest worldwide Laser association, regattas, gatherings, supply chain. And instead he found himself facing the ultimate face of ILCA, the incomprehensible projects of breaking a world that works very well. Day after day, and net of the holiday period, there are still no comments from Italy, but the last considerations from Gianni Galli were strongly perplexed and negative with respect to ILCA's moves. We'll see.

The same platform used for the "vote" is funny: it's called "Survey Monkey" and lends itself to millions of questions and doubts. In short, just the opposite of a safe, independent choice, as EURILCA would have wanted (the European association, most of the Laser world, yet in the minority in the ILCA council: makes a rather soft opposition) and the other actors of the dispute, to starting from LaserPerformance, the famous shipyard that has the rights of the Laser brand and the sale on 80% of the world territory.

So the situation is not clarified, and indeed we go to fast steps towards the legal-judicial clash between ILCA, LaserPerformance and who knows who else, with World Sailing as a real spectator, although very damaged. Contrary to what was arbitrarily stated in the presentation of the vote, the victory of YES by no means guarantees the Olympic permanence of the boat called Laser. If anything, it's the opposite. Without a real clarification, without the famous framework agreement between the parties around a table (which WS does not find time to convene), a "new" ILCA Dinghy, built by who knows how many yards, will have to ask for recognition to the international faith and start again from scratch the die. At the same time, the "old" Laser will continue to be built and sold, all in the shadow of a long confrontation in the Courtrooms ...

A story that will hurt the whole movement, even outside the Laser world itself. Compared to the Star cases (exits from the Olympics), Finn (outgoing except for miracles) or 470 (resized and distorted with the mixed version), the Laser numbers frighteningly larger, with lots of money at stake between Federations and technicians, as well as for the market. It is easy to foresee that with so many yards the boats will be different, there will be a struggle to find the best performing boat, the market will go on stand-by waiting for the proposals of the new builders, the used will be devalued and hardly the yards will withdraw old boats, complicating the life to customers, the richest federations will invest in construction sites to have the best boats ... Is this the Laser? How did we get to know him and how did he achieve and win, right up to the last trials of Valencia? For years there has been talk of strictly one-design. Now it seems a secondary thing. The future should be to reduce tolerances, not increase them.

So? First: wait (and hope) World Sailing. The global faith should not allow the classes to be distorted, worse if at a table, for private interests, and with paths that are not really democratic. If WS endorses the turnaround, it will be complicit in the consequences. If he takes the situation in hand and obliges the parties to a Laser-save agreement, perhaps we could still get out of the nightmare.

Second: work in depth to revoke the current ILCA Council, give the Class a new government, respectful of democracy and not tied to business projects. Third: redo a new International Laser Class. There is no shortage of men, reasons, numbers and times. Farzad Rastegar himself (LaserPerformence) clearly let it be understood in his interview with an international blog. We are in the middle of the ford.

 

 

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Oh my. The Italians are mad. Isn’t that par for the course (says the guy married to one and a great gal she is)!

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Is there any insight on what the Italian contingent vote response rate was?  would be a laugh if it was similar to Germany's 12%

I wonder if they've even verified their votes yet as they were one of the few yet to do so last week

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53 minutes ago, Wess said:

Oh my. The Italians are mad. Isn’t that par for the course (says the guy married to one and a great gal she is)!

The particular Italian who writes these blog posts seems to be very worked up about all this ILCA stuff, for some reason.

Maybe he (or she) is Cannttt's Italian cousin?

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23 minutes ago, JMP said:

Is there any insight on what the Italian contingent vote response rate was?  would be a laugh if it was similar to Germany's 12%

I wonder if they've even verified their votes yet as they were one of the few yet to do so last week

I think it was lower than average. (It seems the greater the vitriol, the lower the turnout. Very similar to mainstream politics.) When I was keeping a tally (badly!) by country, slightly more than half in Italy were voting yes - please don't take that as a reliable indication of what voting was like there - however it is a strong indication that the above does not represent all Italian ILCA members.

---

Note that the message is destructive, and there are no attempts or even suggestions to improve the democratic processes within ILCA.

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

The particular Italian who writes these blog posts seems to be very worked up about all this ILCA stuff, for some reason.

Maybe he (or she) is Cannttt's Italian cousin?

LOL is that like the Stig’s Italian cousin?

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20 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

That is some mighty long grass. 

Whatever shall be done about it?? 

First of all, look out for the snakes in the grass.

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On 8/16/2019 at 6:30 AM, sosoomii said:

It is fallacious because any bike manufacturer can perfectly well build a non race bike and sell it without needing to pay UCI anything. A racing Laser builder will not be allowed to build a non race Laser.  

The rest I simply can’t be bothered with because you are just arguing black is white.  The font of all knowledge, wikipedia, defines the Fair of FRAND as:

Fair relates mainly to the underlying licensing terms. Drawing from anti-trust/competition law; fair terms means terms which are not anti-competitive and that would not be considered unlawful if imposed by a dominant firm in their relative market. Examples of terms that would breach this commitment are: requiring licensees to buy licenses for products that they do not want in order to get a license for the products they do want or requiring licensees to take licenses to certain unwanted or unneeded patents to obtain licenses to other desired patents (bundling); requiring licensees to license their own IP to the licensor for free (free grant backs); and including restrictive conditions on licensees’ dealings with competitors (mandatory exclusivity).

I know we are not talking about the FRAND part of the debate, but none the less this practise of banning club Lasers would appear unfair.

What????   I was addressing Wess' complaint about the class fees, fees paid by manufacturers to governing bodies, and grass roots sailors. That's a different topic to the one you just brought up.

I'm fairly sure that you will find that it's common for licenses to include restrictions on the actions of a licensee, including one that prevents the licensee from building a product that is similar to the one that is the subject of the license. It's not something I've had much to do with but from memory, it is merely common sense - for example it stops someone going into a Mac shop because they are drawn by the brand's name and image, and then being sold a different brand of computer to increase the licensed shop owner's profit.  It's perhaps analogous to the fact that RS may give a shop or wholesaler exclusive rights to sell RS in a certain area, but then prevent them from selling a Lasers or Zims. 

As in many other aspects that could involve restraint of trade, there are different factors that have to be balanced - you can't just say "restraint of trade" and act as if the case is proven. 

It's very odd to claim that I am arguing black is white when you are the one claiming that there are universal principles about what it's right to have to pay for, and dreaming up some mythical black-and-white division into a separate breed of "ILCA elite" sailors and club sailors.  Many of the latter get huge benefits from the existence and activity of ILCA and WS and it can seem perfectly reasonable for them to pay their way if they choose to buy a new boat.

 

 

 

 

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On 8/15/2019 at 11:47 PM, schj said:

None of the road bikes i used over the last 50 or so years had an UCI approval...  I checked the KNWU website (in Dutch only)_ and there is absolute nothing about UCI approved frames/bikes. Join a club, bring your bike and start racing... As far as I can see this is only for pro's. No need for amateur racing... 

It applies, for example, in England (see Rule 3.4 of British Cycling's Handbook), Australia and some US amateur racing. Older bikes don't need the sticker and it's a fairly recent rule so it certainly did not apply 20 years ago!

The rule may often be ignored at local level but many bicycle companies are still paying for many of their bikes to get the sticker, and that fee is being passed on to non-racers and to people like you.  The point is that what Wess seems to be complaining about it not restricted to the Laser class or to sailing.  We all end up paying for some stuff we don't need or can't access. 

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