Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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2 hours ago, drLaser said:

It was reported that this vote had the greatest ever participation rate, more than double the rate of participation in the equally-vital Kirby vote of April 2013.

It would be no or more less valid if it had been 99% or 9% that voted.  Either way it counts.  Turns out less 25% voted. I would not call that a large turn out but equally it should send a clear message to LPE because its those 3300 or so that voted are most likely buying new boats.  At a minimum I would bet a lot of money that ~25% that voted are far more likely to buy (and have bought) new boats in the last 5 years than the 75% that didn't. Either way it ain't good news for LPE.

OK, so it was 81:19 with 22 voting.  I gotta go back an find what I guessed. Who won the bet LOL?!

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Important message here in social media amplifying the loudest voice if not necessarily the biggest voice.

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It sounds as if the YES party had a better Get Out The Vote operation.

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41 minutes ago, Wess said:

Who won the bet LOL?!

@tillerman had guessed 65%, which would have been the chaos vote

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3 hours ago, OneGoat said:

 

We've been told that every kid and every middle aged nobody who races Lasers at their local club is required to be a EurILCA member.

 

No way. Only needed for the EurILCA races. In NL the laser nationals, nothing else!

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On 8/2/2019 at 2:15 AM, sosoomii said:

My prediction is a 25% turnout and 75/25 in favour of yes.

I then predict ILCA will announce a change of name for the boat and LP will start a rival class association.  Much legal action to follow,  not least to clarify whether the “equipment” selected for the Olympics was the boat defined by ILCA class rules or the Laser(TM).

 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:33 AM, JMP said:

I predict a 20% response rate with the No vote getting up.

I'm actually surprised LP hasn't already setup an "International Laser Class Organization" like they did with the Sunfish when the negotiations weren't going their way.  I guess Jean Luc, Beat etc aren't able to serve on both and they're hedging their bets :), or they might remember what happened last time:

https://www.sunfishclass.org/news/article/isca-president-letter-november-22-2017

 

 

On 8/2/2019 at 3:31 AM, jgh66 said:

Europe accounts for 62% of all members. All european classes were promoting EURILCA's no vote. To get 66% yes votes under this conditions seems at least difficult. When you look at the Japan videos there was a high number of people - even from europe - supporting the yes vote. Don't know how much promotion from these people was internally done for a yes vote. At the moment it looks to me that WS would not agree with how Rastegars understands what FRAND means, and it will be difficult to get the 66% Yes votes. WS could do it the Tornado class style, just found a new umbrella olympic class, in which all class legal Lasers may race against Kirby 14s, made by any competent builder. At bit similar to how F18 works, but with very strict class rules and measurement. If they are afraid of legal problems with that - which I can't see as long as they have a proper agreement with GSL/BK as owners of the design rights - they may also go for Finn/Europe, Aero or some combinations. 

 

On 8/2/2019 at 2:45 PM, Wess said:

Gouv - Why let it bother you? It certainly don't bother me. Many here know me but others don't and its fair to say we are all anonymous trolls to somebody else.  Whatever.  The funny thing is how quickly @aroy210677 misunderstood.  It was an unintentional mistake.  Yup all 13 times Andy.  My nephew is named Tracey.  Just back from a year plus deployment I spent all last weekend partying with him.  So a misunderstanding Andy.  Thought Usher's name was spelled same.  But Andy there is no misunderstanding your asking folks who are not ILCA members and rejoin and vote to pump up the yes vote!  People in glass houses and all...  Not sure if that move or the misleading voting materials were worse but hey if it ain't illegal go for it.  Win any way you can.  It means free drinks for me and a fun court case to follow!

That is all?  ILCA has complete control of the vote and voting materials.  Bringing back non-members to bump it. I bet at least 80:20 in favor of yes with about 30% voting.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 3:12 PM, tillerman said:

I predict 65% YES, 35% NO with a 20% turnout.

The NOs win.

 

On 8/2/2019 at 7:58 PM, JMP said:

~14,000 members with ~62% of those in the EURICLA region were some numbers mentioned in recent months.  I'll still be surprised if they end up with ~2000 "Yes" votes to get across the line.

Very interested to see what WS/Olympics do next with the class unable to move forward, will they drop the cash cow? :)

I think I actually won the vote ratio bet with my 80:20 guess.

Very close between @Tillerman and @sosoomiion the % turn-out.  We would need an exact member count to figure that out. I would ask ILCA but I am scared they would charge me a hidden fee to answer... and more for the correct answer!  :P

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7 minutes ago, schj said:

No way. Only needed for the EurILCA races. In NL the laser nationals, nothing else!

A bit similar in germany, only for official class ranking list regattas you need to be a member, but nobody controls this. But you will not be listed in the ranking list. There are quite a lot of non members racing one or two official regattas per year (you need to take part in minimum 9 races = +- 3 Regattas to get listed in the official ranking list) 

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36 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

@tillerman had guessed 65%, which would have been the chaos vote

That was just my contrary nature. I like chaos.

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1 hour ago, schj said:

No way. Only needed for the EurILCA races. In NL the laser nationals, nothing else!

OneGoat's theory is not far out. I actually heard this same story (that in Europe, every kid that sails Lasers joins the local Laser association) from a Belgian (?) club officer two months ago, on Facebook. Intrigued, I immediately posted a message on FB to ask them to confirm what they just said. Nobody replied. I may have even asked again  a day later on, but nobody replied to that question in that thread.

This was exactly the point in time Jean-Luc was claiming that ILCA Europe accounted for 60-70% of all ILCA membership.

Sure, as @schj notes, ILCA membership is required only for ILCA sanctioned events. But that does not mean that only sailors who intend to go to or qualify for the national or District or Regional events join the ILCA District they are in once that prospect becomes clear. Most probably, all 4.7 Laser sailors that race join the District Association (if any) as soon as they start racing the 4.7. That's the case in TUR.

Incidentally, all thirty (30) European Districts that do not have constitutional Laser class associations yet but have national Federations (Andorra, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, Gibraltar, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Luxembourg, "Macedonia", Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Turkey and Ukraine) and require all the sailors in the country to be "licensed" by the Federation are de facto considered "members of ILCA", up to the quota they self-declare to ILCA (to qualify for Olympic spots).

This also tends to inflate the claimed "Euopean membership numbers", compared to the "voluntary membership model" of the more "civilized" Districts and Regions. (The above 30 districts contributed 1600 of the European ILCA members in 2018.) 

I realize that the above would sound very strange to a North American or Australian (and many others).

 

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On ‎7‎/‎3‎/‎2019 at 3:45 PM, Wess said:

  * If asked and we could I would vote current class leadership out of office (lack of confidence that they support) and suspect majority of ILCA members would agree.

Image result for Eating Crow

:P

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2 minutes ago, drLaser said:

OneGoat's theory is not far out. I actually heard this same story (that in Europe, every kid that sails Lasers joins the local Laser association) from a Belgian (?) club officer two months ago, on Facebook. Intrigued, I immediately posted a message on FB to ask them to confirm what they just said. Nobody replied. I may have even asked again  a day later on, but nobody replied to that question in that thread.

This was exactly the point in time Jean-Luc was claiming that ILCA Europe accounted for 60-70% of all ILCA membership.

Sure, as @schj notes, ILCA membership is required only for ILCA sanctioned events. But that does not mean that only sailors who intend to go to or qualify for the national or District or Regional events join the ILCA District they are in once that prospect becomes clear. Most probably, all 4.7 Laser sailors that race join the District Association (if any) as soon as they start racing the 4.7. That's the case in TUR.

Incidentally, all thirty (30) European Districts that do not have constitutional Laser class associations yet but have national Federations (Andorra, Azerbaijan, Belarus, Bulgaria, Croatia, Cyprus, Czech Republic, Estonia, Finland, Georgia, Gibraltar, Greece, Hungary, Iceland, Israel, Kazakhstan, Lithuania, Luxembourg, "Macedonia", Malta, Moldova, Monaco, Montenegro, Portugal, Russia, Serbia, Slovakia, Slovenia, Turkey and Ukraine )and require all the sailors in the country to be "licensed" by the Federation are de facto considered "members of ILCA", up to the quota they self-declare to ILCA (to qualify for Olympic spots).

This also tends to inflate the claimed "Euopean membership numbers", compared to the "voluntary membership model" of the more "civilized" Districts and Regions. (The above 30 districts contributed 1600 of the European ILCA members in 2018.) 

I realize that the above would sound very strange to a North American or Australian (and many others).

 

I’ve tried (on another forum without much success) to get a better understanding of how class membership in Europe is possibly tied to the funding or organizational models. In other words, is there some mechanism that requires class membership, or makes it very difficult to participate without it? 

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14 hours ago, torrid said:

I bet the Optimist/Open Bic blog guy already has a conspiracy rebuttal ready to go.

Its been posted.

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

Image result for Eating Crow

:P

 

Does it taste good w BBQ sauce? Carolina or Kansas City?  And a good beer... and not that Canadian crap!  :lol:

To be fair I evolved a lot on that point. At first I thought this was an easy win and had no clue re Europe.  Then the EurILCA including past Prez opposed which prompted that comment.  After a trip to EU I was far less convinced there would be a big turn out and predicted a yes vote win.  Disagree with it but a vote is a vote so get on board.

Still think Robbie et. al. will owe me some rum to drink with that bird but who knows maybe it all settles and we don't get to find out.  The most interesting bit is whatever happens next!  Hope they don't settle (OK for the class sake I hope they do) otherwise we have nothing fun to talk about and my bet is a null.

And @JimC - that wasn't a conspiracy theory.  Actually seemed like one of his tamer more fact based blogs.  Explains why no action to date.  I had forgotten about the other events up to the 24th.

 

 

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10 minutes ago, JimC said:

Its been posted.

By this point, especially judging by the outcome of the vote, I think the only people reading his blog are the posters in this thread.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

That was just my contrary nature. I like chaos.

Chaos theory is a branch of mathematics focusing on the behavior of dynamical systems that are highly sensitive to initial conditions. ... In other words, the deterministic nature of these systems does not make them predictable. This behavior is known as deterministic chaos, or simply chaos.

Laser sailing then is a branch of mathematics because racing is highly sensitive to initial conditions and the outcome is not predictable.

The next time I capsize, I know what excuse to bring to the bar...

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10 minutes ago, Wess said:

The most interesting bit is whatever happens next! 

Exactly my thoughts. What's next? (without conspiracy angles :-) -- just, ILCA-WS-builder negotiations to determine a FRAND policy? what will FRAND cover? LCM + Trademark, with Trademark conditional on the trademark holder being reasonable, and if not, ditch it for a new name with its trademark owned by ILCA/WS?

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1 hour ago, Old Yeller said:

I’ve tried (on another forum without much success) to get a better understanding of how class membership in Europe is possibly tied to the funding or organizational models. In other words, is there some mechanism that requires class membership, or makes it very difficult to participate without

From german class:
means all racers that take part in official ranking list regattas must be class members due to WS rules. Club level racers of course not. 
 
Hinweis zur Ranglistenerstellung : 
Wir sind eine internationale Klasse der ISAF und unterliegen den Regularien der ISAF.
 
Eine Regulation bestimmt hierzu:  "Use its best efforts to ensure that the National Association is affilated to the relevant ISAF Member National Authority. Class/Owners’ Associations shall require that individual boat owners shall be members of their National Class Association, if any, before racing"  Im zweiten Satz wird zwingend vorgeschrieben,  dass Teilnehmer an (Laser) Regatten Mitglieder der Klassenvereinigung ( DLAS ) sein müssen
 

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Wess, Martin et al.:

Many things will be next. I think formal 'approval' by World Sailing will come soon.

2. ILCA can begin to pare down the list of potential builders.

3. Rastegar/LP will make a counter move.

4. Lawyers will continue to have income from folks who like to play on the water

5. This thread will not self-destruct as of now

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I have a feeling this is going to end not with a bang, but a wimper. LCE are going to see they need to get on board and sign whatever they have to. They still hold all the cards to be the largest manufacturer in the world, and they simply can't argue with the FRAND requirements. They will collect licensing $ for any new builder's boats in areas they suck at serving anyway. So they can kick and fight and spend a bunch of money to "win", but at the end of the day, I suspect they would be further behind. 

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58 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

Exactly my thoughts. What's next? (without conspiracy angles :-) -- just, ILCA-WS-builder negotiations to determine a FRAND policy? what will FRAND cover? LCM + Trademark, with Trademark conditional on the trademark holder being reasonable, and if not, ditch it for a new name with its trademark owned by ILCA/WS?

Not clear.

If wanting the Laser name and trademark used the hold up seems to be licensing terms (either LPE agreeing what PSA and ILCA want) or the reverse.  The real question here is who decides what is fair and reasonable.  If ILCA and WS wanted an easy way out they could in theory leave that to the trademark holders and those seeking a license (and the courts) and if there was a complaint... leave it to the courts to decide if fair and reasonable terms were offered. Its certainly higher (legal) risk for ILCA and WS to get involved in that (setting licensing terms) because they have no expertise or experience in such endeavors.  But here oddly, while WS seemed to demur, ILCA seemed to jump into the deep end. 

If not caring about the Laser name and trademark then its better that LPE was and remain terminated (if they were rightfully terminated which has been raised as a question and all bets off it not) under certain contracts and the vote opens the door to this path.  But oddly the class seems to have stopped short of doing all that is necessary/prudent (insert your own word). They has said they were renaming the boat the ILCA and essentially dropping the Laser from the boat and class name.  The class leaders themselves said they needed membership to vote on this but strangely didn't include this in the vote.  This is odd because it means the class and boat are still called/using "Laser" and that carries some not insignificant legal risk.  Less risk is to call the boat the ILCA as planned (but they didn't do the necessary vote).  Least risk is to call it the Torch (and ITCA) or similar unrelated name but they didn't do that either.  So here its not even clear which path they are on any more never mind what comes next.  It sort of depends on ILCA and WS's appetite for legal risk.  If ILCA and WS want little or no legal risk then by stopping short of the necessary steps to change the name they maybe gave a lot of leverage to LPE and things may have to settle on their terms.  Given the apparent willingness of ILCA leadership to take it to the mat that seems unlikely unless WS forces it by doing an end around (ILCA).  If not then ILCA seems to want its cake and to eat it too (i.e. ditch LPE and or hold out for its and PSA's version of fair licensing terms and keep using Laser name) and is willing to take the legal risk to do so.  Given LPE's history what would seem most likely to be next if on the that path, would be litigation.

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

Not clear.

If wanting the Laser name and trademark used the hold up seems to be licensing terms (either LPE agreeing what PSA and ILCA want) or the reverse.  The real question here is who decides what is fair and reasonable.  If ILCA and WS wanted an easy way out they could in theory leave that to the trademark holders and those seeking a license and if tere was a complaint... leave it to the courts to decide if fair and reasonable terms were offered. Its certainly higher (legal) risk for ILCA and WS to get involved in tat because they have no expertise or experience in such endeavors.  But here oddly, while WS seemed to demur, ILCA seemed to jump in. 

If not caring about the Laser name and trademark then it better that LPE was and remain terminated under certain contracts and the vote opens the door to this path.  But oddly the class seems to have stopped short of doing all that is necessary/prudent (insert your own word). They has said they were renaming the boat the ILCA and esentially dropping the Laser from the class name.  The class leaders themselves said they needed membership to vote on this but strangely didn't include this in the vote.  This is odd because it means the class and boat are still called/using "Laser" and that carries some legal risk.  Less risk is to call the boat the ILCA as planned (but they didn't do the necessary vote).  Least risk is to call it the Torch (and ITCA) or similar unrelated name but they didn't do that either.  So here its not even clear which path they are on any more never mind what comes next.  It sort of depends on ILCA and WS's appetite for legal risk.  If ILCA and WS want little or no legal risk then by stopping short of the necessary steps to change the name they maybe gave a lot of leverage to LPE and things may have to settle on their terms.  Given the apparent willingness of ILCA leadership to take it to the mat that seems unlikely unless WS forces and end around (ILCA).  If not then ILCA seems to want its cake and to eat it too (i.e. ditch LPE and or hold out for its and PSA's version of fair licensing terms and keep using Laser name) and is willing to take the legal risk to do so.  Given LPE's history what would seem most likely to be next if on the that path, would be litigation.

I like cake...


IMG_5357.jpg

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The vote de-claws LPE's threats, in that sense now LPE can choose whether to be part of the future, but the class is no longer hostage.

WRT fair-and-reasonable, you have the yardstick of the current licensing agreement with the current builders -- such as PSA. If PSA pays $NN/year + $MM/boat, you have a starting point. PSA probably paid a "setup fee" way back in the day which would inform things. There might be performance bonds. The deal changes -- now builders can sell anywhere -- but  but transport and customs duties are natural barriers so it doesn't change that much. The license terms can be a bit higher, a bit lower, but you can't go adding zeroes.

Short version - there is a lot of "prior art" in defining FRAND terms based on existing pre-FRAND deals. It's not a showstopper.

My question still stands. Wavedancer II seems to have the clearest idea...

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19 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

Although JPK lost credibility with me some time ago, this latest entry appears more rational.

How dare you post "rational" stuff here.

 

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30 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

The vote de-claws LPE's threats, in that sense now LPE can choose whether to be part of the future, but the class is no longer hostage.

WRT fair-and-reasonable, you have the yardstick of the current licensing agreement with the current builders -- such as PSA. If PSA pays $NN/year + $MM/boat, you have a starting point. PSA probably paid a "setup fee" way back in the day which would inform things. There might be performance bonds. The deal changes -- now builders can sell anywhere -- but  but transport and customs duties are natural barriers so it doesn't change that much. The license terms can be a bit higher, a bit lower, but you can't go adding zeroes.

Short version - there is a lot of "prior art" in defining FRAND terms based on existing pre-FRAND deals. It's not a showstopper.

My question still stands. Wavedancer II seems to have the clearest idea...

Name me any "prior art" in the boat design and construction field with a regional SMOD were it was forced on IP holders by a quasi-regulatory agency.  Any.  Please don't tell me some other field is analogous.  I do that analysis for a living.

I am not saying the class can't win.  Quite the contrary.  I am saying there are avenues of more and less legal risk. To think the class setting or forcing licensing terms is without any legal risk is a bit naive. Even WS didn't and doesn't require that based on what they made public so far.  But hey; not my circus and not my monkeys!

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4 minutes ago, Wess said:

Name me any "prior art" in the boat design and construction field.  Any.  Please don't tell me some other field is analogous.  I do that analysis for a living.

I won't, but this has happened to a few industries, some with a lot more complexities than small boats. And mind you -- this is just about the trademark, not something essential to the product.

There's disruption, but then things settled down on the new order, and life goes on. What seems to be the End Of The World on Monday is The Way Things Are by Friday.

As many have pointed out, it's not like things were running smoothly, so we aren't talking about a situation where a perfect equilibrium is about to be thrown off. The construction has interesting variability and evolution, as the other thread shows. It will get worse temporarily. But other classes and builders manage much better with less money/volume flowing, so folks will find a way to make it go again.

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

They will collect licensing $ for any new builder's boats in areas they suck at serving anyway.

Not so. Only if a new builder wants to use the Laser trademark within LP territories.

44 minutes ago, Wess said:

They has said they were renaming the boat the ILCA and essentially dropping the Laser from the boat and class name.  The class leaders themselves said they needed membership to vote on this but strangely didn't include this in the vote. 

Not strange at all. Apples and oranges. Constitution, versus Class Rules.

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58 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I like cake...


IMG_5357.jpg

Judging from the sail number that is one old cake.  So the cake would be hard and the boat would be soft?  And OMG even our cakes use the trademark, LOL. 

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4 hours ago, torrid said:

Important message here in social media amplifying the loudest voice if not necessarily the biggest voice.

Equally important message in social media failing to transmit the credibility of the speaker; something only their peers can do.  It appears they did it in this case.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And OMG even our cakes use the trademark, LOL. 

That's not the trademark. However my inexpert guess is that a court would probably find it to be too close to the actual trademark.

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On 8/12/2019 at 2:30 AM, sosoomii said:

Thanks IPL.  So essentially a boat may be a Laser as far as being eligible for entry to Internationally Laser Class Association events, but simultaneously is not a Laser as far as the trademarked name is concerned. 

Yes, and why not?  There is no principle requiring a trademark and a class name to be similar or different. 

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On 8/11/2019 at 10:33 PM, Wess said:

What about my moral right to not pay immoral fees, imposed without notice on customers who receive nothing in return? 

Such as?

And how are any fees imposed for sailing a Laser different from the fees imposed for sailing any other class?  I receive “nothing” for the section of my club fees that pay for the rescue boat. I receive “nothing” for the class fee that subsidise juniors.  I receive “nothing” for the proportion of my other boats’ sail costs that go towards the sailmaker’s marketing.  Why is anything paid for Lasers different?

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1 minute ago, Curious said:

Such as?

And how are any fees imposed for sailing a Laser different from the fees imposed for sailing any other class?  I receive “nothing” for the section of my club fees that pay for the rescue boat. I receive “nothing” for the class fee that subsidise juniors.  I receive “nothing” for the proportion of my other boats’ sail costs that go towards the sailmaker’s marketing.  Why is anything paid for Lasers different?

It’s fees for buying. Kind of like the fees you don’t pay to FIFA when you buy a soccer ball or goal. And they may actually be illegal in certain major countries but don’t hold me to that because I don’t care enough to check closely. But it’s par for the course here. Just like baseball and track and gymnastics and swimming and skiing and skating and on and on and on and oh wait no it’s not. Never mind.

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Well I’ve laboured the point more than enough. I don’t get it, it looks like a classic paradox to me:

1. To enter an ILCA event a boat has to be a Laser (constitution).

2. To call a boat a Laser you need TM holder’s permission (TM law). 

3. Yet somehow a boat can enter an ILCA event without TM holder’s permission (class rules).

There is some slight of hand here that I can’t phathom, so I’ve given up trying. 

9 minutes ago, Curious said:

Yes, and why not?  There is no principle requiring a trademark and a class name to be similar or different. 

 

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TFE LIVE: Today's (Tuesday) show postponed 24 hours; we need time to get to the bottom of some important, er, breaking news

Laser related?

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On 8/13/2019 at 3:52 AM, tillerman said:

25348147923_311333fde4_k-998x665.jpg


Is that boat a Laser?

Well, it all depends on what the meaning of the word Laser is.

Well my friend said I should buy a Laser so I could sail in Laser regattas. Can I sail this boat in Laser regattas?

You can sail this one in Laser regattas but not that one over there.

Why not? It says "Laser" on the front of that boat over there.

Well yes, But it doesn't have a plaque that says ILCA in the cockpit.

What's an ILCA?

It's the Laser Class Association.

Oh.

Well why does this boat not have the name Laser on the front? Is it a Laser?

Like I said. It all depends on what the meaning of the word Laser is.

I think I'll go and buy a Sunfish instead.
 

No reasonable sailor would think a boat is eligible for a class race on that sort of simplistic thinking. A boat could  have the class logo and name for 470, Dragon, Etchells, Opti or Sunfish in day glow colours over every square inch and yet the class association and club can throw it out of the regatta unless it has a plaque.  The Laser class has been able to throw a Laser out of the class if a knot was missing from the rig tie down line. 

I could turn up with a boat that looks, smells and tastes like an RS and which used their gear but would be banned   Complaining because the Laser is like other classes is hardly balanced or logical

 

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5 minutes ago, Curious said:

Yes, and why not?  There is no principle requiring a trademark and a class name to be similar or different. 

1280px-F18_Worlds_2015_-_14-07-2015_(Kiel_-_Germany)-0187.thumb.jpg.392c382fa744e0b5a3ecea1829e1f08e.jpg

Formula 18 - Hobie, Cirrus, Nacra, C2 all different branded boats sailing under F18 rules in F18 class

 

2019-F18-Worlds-Measurement-Report-PCB.pdf

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

It’s fees for buying. Kind of like the fees you don’t pay to FIFA when you buy a soccer ball or goal. And they may actually be illegal in certain major countries but don’t hold me to that because I don’t care enough to check closely. But it’s par for the course here. Just like baseball and track and gymnastics and swimming and skiing and skating and on and on and on and oh wait no it’s not. Never mind.

You still haven’t explained what “fee for buying” you are charged for that you don’t pay with other products    You pay license fees and similar IP fees with countless products   

You pay for fees to sports organisations with other products, too.  In the other main sport I do, hundreds of thousands of people pay extra because their new toys have to be checked for compliance by the international body - even when they never compete. I think it’s the same in skiing.

 

 

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35 minutes ago, Curious said:

I think it’s the same in skiing.

 

 

Really!? Rum bet? So you are saying the organization governing the sport of Olympic skiing charges a unit fee on all (each and every) skis, boots and bindings? Like WS does on all Lasers and related gear like sails. Dare ya...

Fair Disclosure Statement - I checked and really like rum.

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Skiing, cycling etc require new gear to be approved for competition use. Approval in cycling costs money, and I believe it’s the same in skiing   That money is recovered from customers whether they race or not  

If you don’t want to pay for the International racing structure, don’t buy a Laser .      No one forced you to.  If you want to race a Laser then do your bit to support the class.  And the sums we’re talking about are pocket change, anyway.

 

 

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Good grief are you a lawyer? Because you are twisting words like a tell tail in the wind. They don’t do what WS does. Go check. And all the fees added up are maybe pocket change at a lawyer’s salary but they ain’t for a junior sailor or a 501c3 not for profit running a youth sailing program. 

If you followed the West Point honor code you would be buying me rum right now! 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

1. To enter an ILCA event a boat has to be a Laser (constitution).

2. To call a boat a Laser you need TM holder’s permission (TM law). 

3. Yet somehow a boat can enter an ILCA event without TM holder’s permission (class rules).

The association which organises events is called the International Laser Class Association; no reference in the constitution to the branding of the boats. At the end of the day, they can invite whichever named boat they want to invite to the events they organise, as long as it is within the bounds of the class rules. I think you're confusing the order in which naming occurs. The International Laser Class Association exists because of pre-existing boats called "Laser". A "Laser" does not exist because there is a class association which stipulates the name the boats should take. 

Re the next steps for ILCA, from what I've been told, WS essentially requires a name for the equipment, and will then announce confirmation of Olympic selection. I believe WS are going to accept the process for appointing new builder which was proposed by ILCA, and already signed by the other builders, including LPE. In addition, a factory inspection of LPE should've been carried out yesterday, but it seems that LP did not agree, and as such the Technical Officer is still in AUS (based on no news of an inspection from LP). I doubt that the other builders are going to allow LPE to rejoin as "Legacy Builder", and will be treated as a 'new builder'. As such, I imagine that one of the terms for them rejoining as a new builder would be to agree to the PSA/PSJ/ILCA proposed FRAND terms for licensing the TM, and the boat will continue to be called the Laser. If LPE don't agree to those terms (which I doubt they will), there's going to be a legal battle and we'll require a new name for boats from non-TM holders, and potentially ILCA.  

 

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Wes;

You said you don’t pay fees to a governing body when you bought sports equipment, but complained that you did pay fees to WS when you bought a Laser. 

The reality is that in sports like cycling and skiing, you effectively DO pay fees to the governing body when you buy a lot of equipment, including most or all of the racing stuff. It’s just quietly added to the retail cost by the manufacturer rather than going down as a plaque fee.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Laser related?

Hope not.

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26 minutes ago, Curious said:

Wes;

You said you don’t pay fees to a governing body when you bought sports equipment, but complained that you did pay fees to WS when you bought a Laser. 

The reality is that in sports like cycling and skiing, you effectively DO pay fees to the governing body when you buy a lot of equipment, including most or all of the racing stuff. It’s just quietly added to the retail cost by the manufacturer rather than going down as a plaque fee.

 

 

 

 

Curious - you have been one of the no BS posters in the past right now you are flat out BS-ing. You picked skiing. Not me. Bad choice. I know skiing well. Go check FIS. It is not the same as what WS is doing. Not even close. If you are going to keep claiming it at least produce the document. The FIS stuff is all there for everyone to see. I can even tell you where to look. Anyway if you want to keep repeating BS have at it. But I dare you to produce the FIS document to show this is the same as WS. Double dog dare you (is that even a thing.... gotta ask grandkids). Seems like you are trolling and Homie don’t play that.

Help me with the video Tiller. Have to de rig and get back to dinner.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Homie don’t play that.

Image result for homie don't play that

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Help me with the video Tiller. Have to de rig and get back to dinner.

Video? I am just curious to learn more from all of you experts about how international sports bodies are funded.

Perhaps there is something that World Sailing can learn from Cricket?
 

 

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I'm pretty sure the R&A doesn't make money from duffer's balls and clubs!

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Curious - you have been one of the no BS posters in the past right now you are flat out BS-ing. You picked skiing. Not me. Bad choice. I know skiing well. Go check FIS. It is not the same as what WS is doing. Not even close. If you are going to keep claiming it at least produce the document. The FIS stuff is all there for everyone to see. I can even tell you where to look. Anyway if you want to keep repeating BS have at it. But I dare you to produce the FIS document to show this is the same as WS. Double dog dare you (is that even a thing.... gotta ask grandkids). Seems like you are trolling and Homie don’t play that.

Help me with the video Tiller. Have to de rig and get back to dinner.

Did you write pages ago you were currently not a member of the class?

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7 hours ago, sosoomii said:

TFE LIVE: Today's (Tuesday) show postponed 24 hours; we need time to get to the bottom of some important, er, breaking news

Laser related?

MY GUEST ON TFE LIVE, tomorrow (Wednesday, postponed from Tuesday) is the popular Alan Block, aka “Mr Clean” — to talk Lasers, ILCA, and just to catch up with a fellow Michigander. Join us at 1300 Pacific / 2000 UTC on Sailing Illustrated .

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I really wonder why you are still taking these guys' posts seriously, when they don't take themselves seriously, are here to have some fun, create some chaos, may not even belong to the class association, troll continuously, and may even be in bed with "the Russians"! Whenever you feel their posts are in the wrong, just let them be. Whenever they question something obvious or discussed earlier, just let them be. Whenever they raise an irrelevant issue, just let them be. Ignore their posts.

You can't prevent them from voicing their opinions, no matter how harsh or ludicrous. But you can control yourselves. Take their posts seriously if and when their remarks deserve it.

Blowing less than 30 for the first time in days. Time to go sailing and trying that new timer on the water.

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3 hours ago, drLaser said:

I really wonder why you are still taking these guys' posts seriously, when they don't take themselves seriously, are here to have some fun, create some chaos, may not even belong to the class association, troll continuously, and may even be in bed with "the Russians"! Whenever you feel their posts are in the wrong, just let them be. Whenever they question something obvious or discussed earlier, just let them be. Whenever they raise an irrelevant issue, just let them be. Ignore their posts.

You can't prevent them from voicing their opinions, no matter how harsh or ludicrous. But you can control yourselves. Take their posts seriously if and when their remarks deserve it.

elberthubbard1-2x.thumb.jpg.fae8c3e189bb4cc1daa15b81ff4266f6.jpg

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12 hours ago, greenwhiteblack said:

 

Re the next steps for ILCA, from what I've been told, WS essentially requires a name for the equipment, and will then announce confirmation of Olympic selection. I believe WS are going to accept the process for appointing new builder which was proposed by ILCA, and already signed by the other builders, including LPE. In addition, a factory inspection of LPE should've been carried out yesterday, but it seems that LP did not agree, and as such the Technical Officer is still in AUS (based on no news of an inspection from LP). I doubt that the other builders are going to allow LPE to rejoin as "Legacy Builder", and will be treated as a 'new builder'. As such, I imagine that one of the terms for them rejoining as a new builder would be to agree to the PSA/PSJ/ILCA proposed FRAND terms for licensing the TM, and the boat will continue to be called the Laser. If LPE don't agree to those terms (which I doubt they will), there's going to be a legal battle and we'll require a new name for boats from non-TM holders, and potentially ILCA.  

 

Agree.  That is actually very similar to what I am saying.  Other then adding for the potential that WS pulls an end around on ILCA.  You have an interesting phrasing in there.

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

Agree.  That is actually very similar to what I am saying.  Other then adding for the potential that WS pulls an end around on ILCA.  You have an interesting phrasing in there.

What sort of action by WS do you mean?

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What sort of action by WS do you mean?

Just that its possible that WS could decide to not align with or support ILCA's actions.  No clue how likely that is.  As GWB points out there is a very real path here that ends up with the parties in litigation (virtual certainty if LPE and PSA/PSJ/ILCA can't agree licensing terms) and means that ILCA still has work to do with boat name and class name and so would take this way past the August 1 date.  Well past September 1.  Would WS balk?  How risk adverse or tolerant are they. No way to know.

I think what folks foget is this could settle various ways.  LPE could agree PSA/PSJ/ILCA licensing terms, or PSA/PSJ/ILCA could agree LPE licensing terms, or the parties could agree something in the middle.  Or they could restructure and leave the terms out.  WS public statements/documents on FRAND allow that so the door is at least cracked open to that as well though here its ILCA/PSA/PSJ pushing to have terms included. 

Each approach has differing degrees of legal risk.  The ultimate settlement (if there is one and doubt we will know on who's terms it settled if it does) will be a function of how much legal risk each party is willing to take.  If WS has a low risk tolerance there are things they can do to push PSA/PSJ/ILCA to settle on terms they would in theory rather not.  WS could also walk away from the whole mess and pick the Aero, Finn, or whatever.

But you already knew this. 

IMHO.  YMMV.

Oh, and yes @VWAP

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39 minutes ago, Wess said:

As such, I imagine that one of the terms for them rejoining as a new builder would be to agree to the PSA/PSJ/ILCA proposed FRAND terms for licensing the TM, and the boat will continue to be called the Laser

Can't believe that this is going to work. You can't press LPE to license their trademark. If new builders can become licensed, LP also can get a new builders license. Their trademark is their trademark, they can stay the only one to be able to sell under the name Laser for ROW. From what I understood from FR in his interview he does not agree to pay design royalties to PSA or GSL. Well that's no wonder since they fight since 2012 in USA courts about this. I believe that GSL as party to the LCMA (as Tracy said), would not accept new builders that don't pay the 2% designer royalties on the wholesale price. Especially not LP. Don't know what happpens to all the unpaid designer royalties since 2011 or 2012? Can't believe that FR wants to pay this unless he has lost the courtcase in USA... 

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I didn't say that you are messing up the quote function. GWB said that.  But in context it seems a fair statement.

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@Wess you are beginning to depress me. I thought a YES vote was supposed to guarantee that the Laser would stay in the Olympics? 

Now you are telling me this is far from certain and that World Sailing might play the RS Aero card and impose the burden of the Olympic circus on us happy, friendly, enthusiastic, fun-loving, curious, open-minded, forward-looking RS Aero sailors?  

If the worst happens and the RS Aero Class does get the Olympics dumped on it, I guess I can always go back to Laser sailing. I still have a Laser in the garage (currently in use as a shelf to store all my RS Aero gear.) 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

@Wess you are beginning to depress me. I thought a YES vote was supposed to guarantee that the Laser would stay in the Olympics? 

Now you are telling me this is far from certain and that World Sailing might play the RS Aero card and impose the burden of the Olympic circus on us happy, enthusiastic, fun-loving, curious , open-minded, forward-looking RS Aero sailors?  Please say it ain't so.

If the worst happens and the RS Aero Class gets the Olympics dumped on it, I guess I can always go back to Laser sailing. I still have a Laser in the garage (currently in uses as a shelf to store all my RS Aero gear.) 

Sell me the Laser. I like novelty items.  Like my Torch T-shirt and belt.  You are such a troll LOL

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As much as we love to hate on a certain builder, I'm really starting to believe WS is the real villain.  For the "privilege" of being an Olympic class, they mandate a FRAND policy knowing it flies in the face of all the current licensing and trademark agreements.   Despite getting the class to do their dirty work for them, I think there's no telling how they will respond to the rule change passing.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Just that its possible that WS could decide to not align with or support ILCA's actions.  No clue how likely that is.  As GWB points out there is a very real path here that ends up with the parties in litigation (virtual certainty if LPE and PSA/PSJ/ILCA can't agree licensing terms) and means that ILCA still has work to do with boat name and class name and so would take this way past the August 1 date.  Well past September 1.  Would WS balk?  How risk adverse or tolerant are they. No way to know.

I think what folks foget is this could settle various ways.  LPE could agree PSA/PSJ/ILCA licensing terms, or PSA/PSJ/ILCA could agree LPE licensing terms, or the parties could agree something in the middle.  Or they could restructure and leave the terms out.  WS public statements/documents on FRAND allow that so the door is at least cracked open to that as well though here its ILCA/PSA/PSJ pushing to have terms included. 

Each approach has differing degrees of legal risk.  The ultimate settlement (if there is one and doubt we will know on who's terms it settled if it does) will be a function of how much legal risk each party is willing to take.  If WS has a low risk tolerance there are things they can do to push PSA/PSJ/ILCA to settle on terms they would in theory rather not.  WS could also walk away from the whole mess and pick the Aero, Finn, or whatever.

But you already knew this. 

IMHO.  YMMV.

Oh, and yes @VWAP

Wow, you did not vote

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7 minutes ago, torrid said:

As much as we love to hate on a certain builder, I'm really starting to believe WS is the real villain.  For the "privilege" of being an Olympic class, they mandate a FRAND policy knowing it flies in the face of all the current licensing and trademark agreements.   Despite getting the class to do their dirty work for them, I think there's no telling how they will respond to the rule change passing.

Based on their appetite for legal risk and need for revenue. Note that the first  thing that FR said in his interview was that he supported WS’s desire for the new Olympic fee while ILCA pushed back.  And again yes @VWAP.

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1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Wow, you did not vote

@Wess did not vote?

Good for him.

It's the non-members who vote in ILCA elections who really are the scum of the earth..

I cannttt stand those guys.





 

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28 minutes ago, tillerman said:

@Wess did not vote?

Good for him.

It's the non-members who vote in ILCA elections who really are the scum of the earth..

I cannttt stand those guys.





 

LOL... but maybe I actually did.  Do you think they would confirm votes from:

R. U. Wess

R. U. Wuss

R. U. Wurst

R. U. Tiller

R. U. Crane

... and on and on and on.  Dang it seems like those were the only ones voting no. 

Didn't WS say something about August 1?  Anybody seen a calendar? 

Those poor Aero folks must be so confused right now. Maybe they meant August 1 2020??

With all sides being so quiet for so long they must all be trying to settle it.

Anybody got an over under date for the next meaningful announcement? 

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

Didn't WS say something about August 1?  Anybody seen a calendar? 

Those poor Aero folks must be so confused right now. Maybe they meant August 1 2020??

With all sides being so quiet for so long they must all be trying to settle it.

 

We Aero folks always knew we were a pawn in the global game of chicken between the Laser and WS behemoths.

Being the curious, optimistic, philosophical folk that we are, we have been taking a passing interest in the recent shenanigans in Laser world but without any expectation that World Sailing would actually pick the boat that won the trials to be in the Olympics. That would be bizarre.

We are not so much "confused" as amused.

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Being the curious, optimistic, philosophical folk that we are, we have been taking a passing interest in the recent shenanigans in Laser world but without any expectation that World Sailing would actually pick the boat that won the trials to be in the Olympics. That would be bizarre.

We are not so much "confused" as amused.

You Aero guys... You have to admit you are tasting some sour grapes. You can see the grape stains on your texts. And certainly the Aero won overall, but the Laser did win some of the more key factors (IMHO); i.e. Athletic Suitability and Performance (ie the sailing part),  and Cost. I am sure the Aero was fully deserving of the Quality honors, but I can't say for sure as there isn't one within 600 miles of me.  I am sure I would love the boat trusting the glowing reviews and videos. It looks fantastic! Maybe I will actually see one out here before the next selection process.

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Being the curious, optimistic, philosophical folk that we are, we have been taking a passing interest in the recent shenanigans in Laser world but without any expectation that World Sailing would actually pick the boat that won the trials to be in the Olympics. That would be bizarre.

lol, you're so good at this. I almost took the bait

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4 minutes ago, dgmckim said:

lol, you're so good at this. I almost took the bait

Carol Anne- Stay away from the light!!

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42 minutes ago, bill4 said:

You Aero guys... You have to admit you are tasting some sour grapes. You can see the grape stains on your texts. And certainly the Aero won overall, but the Laser did win some of the more key factors (IMHO); i.e. Athletic Suitability and Performance (ie the sailing part),  and Cost. I am sure the Aero was fully deserving of the Quality honors, but I can't say for sure as there isn't one within 600 miles of me.  I am sure I would love the boat trusting the glowing reviews and videos. It looks fantastic! Maybe I will actually see one out here before the next selection process.

I can't speak for all Aero sailors but, among the Aero sailors I know well and chat with about Olympic stuff in New England, the feeling about the Aero being in the Olympics was always somewhere between 50:50 and being opposed to it.

So no sour grapes at all in my circle. The Aero sailors I know are just focused on enjoying the local Aero scene as it is (which is pretty good around here) and continuing to grow the fleet organically. Nobody is bitching, "If only we were in the Olympics..."

In the last week I sailed an RS Aero regatta at a new location, had some fun sailing Aeros with a friend in big wind and waves where Narragansett Bay meets Rhode Island Sound, and clinched the pursuit race series at my local club. Four of my local friends are sailing in the RS Aero Europeans on Lake Garda starting this weekend. Others are making plans for Aero sailing in Florida and/or Australia this winter. Life is good in Aero world. The grapes are sweet.

Hope you do get a chance to try an RS Aero soon @bill4.
 

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6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I can't speak for all Aero sailors but, among the Aero sailors I know well and chat with about Olympic stuff in New England, the feeling about the Aero being in the Olympics was always somewhere between 50:50 and being opposed to it.
 

The Olympics are a siren song. Just say no!

8 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Others are making plans for Aero sailing in Florida 

What’s happening in Florida this winter and how do I get a charter? I’d love to race one. Never seen one though.

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7 hours ago, jgh66 said:

Can't believe that this is going to work. You can't press LPE to license their trademark. If new builders can become licensed, LP also can get a new builders license. Their trademark is their trademark, they can stay the only one to be able to sell under the name Laser for ROW

Of course you can press them to license their trademark. If they want to continue to sell 1600 class legal boats a year, then they're going to have to start agreeing with ILCA. Otherwise, they can continue selling non-class legal Lasers to significantly less customers with less margin

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:



I cannttt stand those guys.





 

You spelled it wrong.  Its only two ts not three.  Andey is going to get pissed.

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32 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

The Olympics are a siren song. Just say no!

What’s happening in Florida this winter and how do I get a charter? I’d love to race one. Never seen one though.

Given this is meant to be a Laser thread, I have posted the dates of RS Aero regattas in Florida this winter in the rs aero thread.

 

 

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Posted (edited)
38 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Of course you can press them to license their trademark. If they want to continue to sell 1600 class legal boats a year, then they're going to have to start agreeing with ILCA. Otherwise, they can continue selling non-class legal Lasers to significantly less customers with less margin

You´ll give FR a lot of ammunition for a legal fight if you try. And whatfore? CR are changed, nobody needs to use the TM, why should anyone want to press FR to license his trademark? Would be nice for all new builders who want to use the TM, and clients who need a boat with an original Laser sticker and who are willing to pay 1000 € extra for this.  I know that the license of TM or design rights is a requirement of WS. But does it still make sense? WS wanted to have competition between builders, and that seems to be possible even without LPE licensing the TM.

Edited by jgh66
clarification
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14 minutes ago, jgh66 said:

CR are changed, nobody needs to use the TM, why should anyone want to press FR to license his trademark?

I completely agree,  I think there is no use for the Laser TM now that the rules have been changed. That being said, I think there is a large number of class members who are tied to the name Laser,  and the name Laser holds a lot of sentimental value for many, and ILCA will try to keep those members on their side. In addition, "Laser" is such a well known brand that any change from that will be a step backwards in terms of class promotion and develpment. 

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10 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

I completely agree,  I think there is no use for the Laser TM now that the rules have been changed. That being said, I think there is a large number of class members who are tied to the name Laser,  and the name Laser holds a lot of sentimental value for many, and ILCA will try to keep those members on their side. In addition, "Laser" is such a well known brand that any change from that will be a step backwards in terms of class promotion and develpment. 

True, but to press any TM holder to give up his rights, before he can get a building license, when any other new builder may join the club without licensing their trademarks ( or does Far East have to license their TM "Far East"to become a builder ?) will be difficult to enforce. Just my 2ct. 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Given this is meant to be a Laser thread, I have posted the dates of RS Aero regattas in Florida this winter in the rs aero thread.

 

 

Thanks! I’ll race anything. Even an ILCA Dinghy.....

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43 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Otherwise, they can continue selling non-class legal Lasers to significantly less customers with less margin

Nobody can force LP to do that! That would be "interfering with their business model"!  :D :D 

God, how I hated hearing that term used arbitrarily, out of context, and as if it's holy scripture!

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