Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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2 hours ago, Looper said:

It would be really great if the class would throw us a bone and give us an update on the status of builders.  I'm starting to consider a boat upgrade and the Aussie boats are SO much more expensive to get here than what we could get the often scarce LPE boat for(9k v. what was about 6.5k).  It would be nice to know if a NA builder was actually coming down the line.  As far as i can tell the rumors in this thread about Zim/Far East are not actually happening, and I would suspect that the current 420 issue over at PS2000/Sturgis would prevent moving forward with Far East boats coming in through Far East USA (also Sturgis).  

Fulcrum?

Melges?

Performance Sailcraft Canada?

Will LPE be reinstated?

 

Being realistic here, but what sort of time frame are you on?

First, consider how long it will actually take to bring a builder online.  They have to iron out all the legal agreements with the class, WS, the trademark holders etc.  They then need to get tooling going to actually make hulls.  They need ILCA to audit and verify the hulls are made in compliance with the LCM. They also need to establish supply chains and distribution.  How long do you think all that will take?  I think a year would be extremely aggressive.

Then consider this - do you really want to be the guinea pig who buys a brand new boat from an unproven builder?

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2 hours ago, Looper said:

It would be really great if the class would throw us a bone and give us an update on the status of builders.  I'm starting to consider a boat upgrade and the Aussie boats are SO much more expensive to get here than what we could get the often scarce LPE boat for(9k v. what was about 6.5k).  It would be nice to know if a NA builder was actually coming down the line.  As far as i can tell the rumors in this thread about Zim/Far East are not actually happening, and I would suspect that the current 420 issue over at PS2000/Sturgis would prevent moving forward with Far East boats coming in through Far East USA (also Sturgis).  

Fulcrum?

Melges?

Performance Sailcraft Canada?

Will LPE be reinstated?

 

It would be really great if someone would start building Saabs again.

saab-96-655x512.jpg

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I am old.  That's hot.  Come on Tiller... if you want new get out of the Aero (lighter boat for weaker Laser Master sailors) and get a UFO.  Foiling is where its at!

 

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Just now, Wess said:

I am old.  That's hot.  Come on Tiller... if you want new get out of the Aero (lighter boat for weaker Laser Master sailors) and get a UFO.  Foiling is where its at!

 


Saabs aren't hot.

Teslas are hot.

HT_tesla_fire_jtm_131003_16x9_992.jpg.39740f34f7a530d1022ddea47c669404.jpg
 

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I laughed Tiller.  And then I thought about that dive boat.   But for the grace of God...

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17 hours ago, Looper said:

It would be really great if the class would throw us a bone and give us an update on the status of builders.  I'm starting to consider a boat upgrade and the Aussie boats are SO much more expensive to get here than what we could get the often scarce LPE boat for(9k v. what was about 6.5k).  It would be nice to know if a NA builder was actually coming down the line.  As far as i can tell the rumors in this thread about Zim/Far East are not actually happening, and I would suspect that the current 420 issue over at PS2000/Sturgis would prevent moving forward with Far East boats coming in through Far East USA (also Sturgis).  

Fulcrum?

Melges?

Performance Sailcraft Canada?

Will LPE be reinstated?

 

2118787555_ScreenShot2019-09-07at6_23_09AM.thumb.png.4f2cb1fa6a194e18e947b5ef001d79c9.png

http://www.mysailing.com.au/latest/psa-to-inject-more-than-400-boats-into-australian-market-for-the-laser-2020-summer-of-sailing?fbclid=IwAR1DZTgU86WRCPxtxPiI5VGxm8jaD3HdVI4cS2vE8GCJOuFm3iiKADiX9Ec

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23 hours ago, torrid said:

Being realistic here, but what sort of time frame are you on?

First, consider how long it will actually take to bring a builder online.  They have to iron out all the legal agreements with the class, WS, the trademark holders etc.  They then need to get tooling going to actually make hulls.  They need ILCA to audit and verify the hulls are made in compliance with the LCM. They also need to establish supply chains and distribution.  How long do you think all that will take?  I think a year would be extremely aggressive.

Then consider this - do you really want to be the guinea pig who buys a brand new boat from an unproven builder?

I'm not held to any sort of timeline, but I'm trying to refine my 3-5 year plan financially for racing sailboats.  My current boat is a 2015 vintage and the boat is just fine, but i'm starting to think of my next move and with the level of uncertainty we have right now it's really hard to plan.  

I absolutely understand that for a new builder to come online it takes several months to a year (or more) and that I certainly don't want one of the first few boats off the line unless i'm paying half price.  But knowing what's coming makes a difference.  Let's say, for example, that the class is actively working with Melges to license them to build ILCA dinghys.  Assuming the tooling takes 3-4 months to get together, 3-4 months to source and stock additional parts, and 6 months to be inspected and approved by ILCA, let's figure that the process COULD be completed in the next 18 months.  Let's also figure that Melges as a builder could average 1 hull per 2 days.   After 6 months they would probably be just shy of 100 hulls. One might hope that a NA builder like Melges might be able to be competitive with LPE prices and keep the price per boat under 7k. 

Now if you add that up, that's about 24 months, which is a reasonable time that I would be willing to soldier through with my existing 2015 before really wanting a newer race boat.

Thinking towards the future, that $2k difference, (theoretical Melges 7k v. PSA 9k) could buy me a lot of regatta trips, new sails, etc between now and then.  But having the uncertainty means that i've got to plan to spend the full $9k. In my world coming up with and additional $2k for an already overstretched boat(s) budget ain't easy.  It sure would be nice to know that ILCA is at least working towards a NA builder and that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  Andy?  Tracy?  Are you out there?

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3 hours ago, Looper said:

I'm not held to any sort of timeline, but I'm trying to refine my 3-5 year plan financially for racing sailboats.  My current boat is a 2015 vintage and the boat is just fine, but i'm starting to think of my next move and with the level of uncertainty we have right now it's really hard to plan.  

I absolutely understand that for a new builder to come online it takes several months to a year (or more) and that I certainly don't want one of the first few boats off the line unless i'm paying half price.  But knowing what's coming makes a difference.  Let's say, for example, that the class is actively working with Melges to license them to build ILCA dinghys.  Assuming the tooling takes 3-4 months to get together, 3-4 months to source and stock additional parts, and 6 months to be inspected and approved by ILCA, let's figure that the process COULD be completed in the next 18 months.  Let's also figure that Melges as a builder could average 1 hull per 2 days.   After 6 months they would probably be just shy of 100 hulls. One might hope that a NA builder like Melges might be able to be competitive with LPE prices and keep the price per boat under 7k. 

Now if you add that up, that's about 24 months, which is a reasonable time that I would be willing to soldier through with my existing 2015 before really wanting a newer race boat.

Thinking towards the future, that $2k difference, (theoretical Melges 7k v. PSA 9k) could buy me a lot of regatta trips, new sails, etc between now and then.  But having the uncertainty means that i've got to plan to spend the full $9k. In my world coming up with and additional $2k for an already overstretched boat(s) budget ain't easy.  It sure would be nice to know that ILCA is at least working towards a NA builder and that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  Andy?  Tracy?  Are you out there?

I would suggest that your need for a new boat will depend on what your racing goals are and where you are now. If you want to win the Nationals but are mid fleet in your club, a new boat at this stage doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe a new sail and increased BTU's (boat time units) are what is required. But if you are crushing it in your region now, maybe a new boat will pay dividends immediately. Only you know a reasonable timeline. And in a couple years your budget may be different.

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14 hours ago, bill4 said:

I would suggest that your need for a new boat will depend on what your racing goals are and where you are now. If you want to win the Nationals but are mid fleet in your club, a new boat at this stage doesn't make a lot of sense. Maybe a new sail and increased BTU's (boat time units) are what is required. But if you are crushing it in your region now, maybe a new boat will pay dividends immediately. Only you know a reasonable timeline. And in a couple years your budget may be different.

I'm more of a weekend warrior who likes to race with nice things.  Having a good boat is more than just the potential speed enhancements.  Older boats need love, parts break, sails wear, foils get nicked, masts bend and tires go flat.  At some point in my mind it's cheaper to refresh boats than it is to buy foils, covers, sails, dolley parts, and spars.  Whether or not you are top of the fleet a boat sailed a few times a week gets tired after 5 years.

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19 hours ago, Looper said:

I'm not held to any sort of timeline, but I'm trying to refine my 3-5 year plan financially for racing sailboats.  My current boat is a 2015 vintage and the boat is just fine, but i'm starting to think of my next move and with the level of uncertainty we have right now it's really hard to plan.  

I absolutely understand that for a new builder to come online it takes several months to a year (or more) and that I certainly don't want one of the first few boats off the line unless i'm paying half price.  But knowing what's coming makes a difference.  Let's say, for example, that the class is actively working with Melges to license them to build ILCA dinghys.  Assuming the tooling takes 3-4 months to get together, 3-4 months to source and stock additional parts, and 6 months to be inspected and approved by ILCA, let's figure that the process COULD be completed in the next 18 months.  Let's also figure that Melges as a builder could average 1 hull per 2 days.   After 6 months they would probably be just shy of 100 hulls. One might hope that a NA builder like Melges might be able to be competitive with LPE prices and keep the price per boat under 7k. 

Now if you add that up, that's about 24 months, which is a reasonable time that I would be willing to soldier through with my existing 2015 before really wanting a newer race boat.

Thinking towards the future, that $2k difference, (theoretical Melges 7k v. PSA 9k) could buy me a lot of regatta trips, new sails, etc between now and then.  But having the uncertainty means that i've got to plan to spend the full $9k. In my world coming up with and additional $2k for an already overstretched boat(s) budget ain't easy.  It sure would be nice to know that ILCA is at least working towards a NA builder and that there is a light at the end of the tunnel.  Andy?  Tracy?  Are you out there?

Well this would conflict with the supposed two person Melges 14/16/18 prototype coming out next spring. This is supposed to keep the youth market going but a $20k price tag seems steep.

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Through all this drama and uncertainty in August, Grand Lake Yacht Club in Colorado held the Colorado Laser Championships with 35 boats, including 8 (including myself) traveling from Texas! There were boats of all ages but by far the 2000's vanguards were most prevalent. Parts availability and high costs were of concern when talking to other sailors on shore but also were conversations of love for the boat and the competitors of all ages represented (13-78). There is a huge opportunity here!! Check out this awesome video of the video to see for yourself... this regatta is grass roots Laser sailing at its finest. 

 

https://drive.google.com/file/d/1fDCUncLjAjlEHEEAaP5U6CjNTzPW9M_R/view

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On 9/8/2019 at 4:09 PM, Gouvernail said:

If you are serious about competing nationally, the price of a boat and spare sails  is only about 10% of your budget. 

Gas, motels, entry fees, road food, months off from work, insurance, and if you are REALLY serious: Coach, RIB, his tie vehicle and lodging

and  for many coaches:

bail, legal fees, child support 

 

seriously: if $2000 is actually a serious consideration, you can’t afford to compete

 

Not in Masters, which is what he's probably aiming for.

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

Not in Masters, which is what he's probably aiming for.

Dunno, while the serious masters people round here aren't full time on the road they do put in a shed load of time on events. Its not remotely like Olympic hopeful spend, but it appears to me to be way beyond what I could ever justify to myself. Especially as once you are qualified for masters events sleeping in tents and in the back of vans has lost its appeal and the accommodation bills escalate spectacularly.

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8 hours ago, JimC said:

Dunno, while the serious masters people round here aren't full time on the road they do put in a shed load of time on events. Its not remotely like Olympic hopeful spend, but it appears to me to be way beyond what I could ever justify to myself. Especially as once you are qualified for masters events sleeping in tents and in the back of vans has lost its appeal and the accommodation bills escalate spectacularly.

Not really.  In the modern day era of AirBnB one really doesn't have to spend much more than the cost of a tent for accommodations at the NA Masters events.  With enough creativity, I'm generally able to do a 3-4 day event for around $125-150/day.  

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Something or nothing?  So LP has an interesting video up in a facebook post.  Highlighting a new Laser rig.

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Its finally over:

World Sailing’s Council confirms Laser as Paris 2024 Men’s and Women’s One Person Dinghy
At World Sailing's 2019 Mid-Year Meeting in London, Great Britain, World Sailing's Council voted to retain the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy for the Paris 2024 Olympic Sailing Competition.
The World Sailing Board informed Council in May 2019 that it would only continue contractual discussions until 1 August 2019 with the selected Equipment.
The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) signed the required Olympic Classes Contract by this deadline and submitted additional information and clarification about the arrangements for the Class.
Following ILCA clarification, the Board recommended to World Sailing’s Council to confirm the appointment of the Laser as the Equipment for the Men’s and Women’s One Person Dinghy under the normal arrangements for an electronic vote.
This was approved by Council (30 in favour, 0 against, 0 abstain – 30 participated).
 

 

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8 minutes ago, CenterboardBrake said:

Its finally over:

World Sailing’s Council confirms Laser as Paris 2024 Men’s and Women’s One Person Dinghy
At World Sailing's 2019 Mid-Year Meeting in London, Great Britain, World Sailing's Council voted to retain the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy for the Paris 2024 Olympic Sailing Competition.
The World Sailing Board informed Council in May 2019 that it would only continue contractual discussions until 1 August 2019 with the selected Equipment.
The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) signed the required Olympic Classes Contract by this deadline and submitted additional information and clarification about the arrangements for the Class.
Following ILCA clarification, the Board recommended to World Sailing’s Council to confirm the appointment of the Laser as the Equipment for the Men’s and Women’s One Person Dinghy under the normal arrangements for an electronic vote.
This was approved by Council (30 in favour, 0 against, 0 abstain – 30 participated).
 

 

Phew!

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15 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

True. The masters sailing is mostly contested among those of us who never sailed at the very front of the open fleet. At best, the competition is like a well attended local open regatta. 

It is a great ego boost if you simply look at the results. I rounded every buoy in first and won every race in the masters division at the NA masters champs a few years ago.  I have rounded the weather mark first a few times in big open regattas but I have never even made it to the first leeward Mark first. 

As for $$$. If you want to sail a Masters world’s outside your own country, you will usually spend  the price of a new boat 

 

When was the last time you made it to FL for the Masters week?  That's a pretty tough fleet.

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2 hours ago, CenterboardBrake said:

Its finally over:

World Sailing’s Council confirms Laser as Paris 2024 Men’s and Women’s One Person Dinghy
At World Sailing's 2019 Mid-Year Meeting in London, Great Britain, World Sailing's Council voted to retain the Equipment for the Men's and Women's One Person Dinghy for the Paris 2024 Olympic Sailing Competition.
The World Sailing Board informed Council in May 2019 that it would only continue contractual discussions until 1 August 2019 with the selected Equipment.
The International Laser Class Association (ILCA) signed the required Olympic Classes Contract by this deadline and submitted additional information and clarification about the arrangements for the Class.
Following ILCA clarification, the Board recommended to World Sailing’s Council to confirm the appointment of the Laser as the Equipment for the Men’s and Women’s One Person Dinghy under the normal arrangements for an electronic vote.
This was approved by Council (30 in favour, 0 against, 0 abstain – 30 participated).
 

 

But wait... there is more...

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

No announcement from ILCA though.  Wouldn’t they want to share this with their members?

I imagine there will be something posted tomorrow. WS had to announce it first.

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5 hours ago, tillerman said:

Phew!

Are you relieved that it’s not the Aero? I would be. Grow the fleet. Have fun. And stay far away from the Olympics.

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18 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Are you relieved that it’s not the Aero? I would be. Grow the fleet. Have fun. And stay far away from the Olympics.

Personally, yes I am relieved.

I am enjoying being part of the natural growth of the RS Aero class. Every year gets better with more interest, more owners, more regattas. Great group of sailors learning from each other and having a lot of fun in the process.. Olympic status might have sold more boats but I fear it would have meant a lot of disruption for the class too.

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Note that World Sailing says Laser Dinghy not ILCA approved Dinghy. Does this mean only Trade mark holder built Lasers. Which goes against the whole point of the recent vote and the FRAND requirements. 

World Sailing Sc****d us again!

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39 minutes ago, GBR2083 said:

Note that World Sailing says Laser Dinghy not ILCA approved Dinghy. Does this mean only Trade mark holder built Lasers. Which goes against the whole point of the recent vote and the FRAND requirements. 

World Sailing Sc****d us again!

Nope - at least I can't see how. The class is the Laser class, the boats may not have the Laser trademark.

Look at the timing of the announcements. It makes sense - ILCA reached an agreement to use the Laser trademark after the ILCA dinghy was announced.

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3 hours ago, GBR2083 said:

Note that World Sailing says Laser Dinghy not ILCA approved Dinghy. 

I wouldn't read anything into that. The class name is currently Laser dinghy. If it changes at some time in the future, be it two weeks or two decades, then that's no big deal no matter what the apocalyptic scenario constructors like to invent. We are yet to hear anything about builders and trademarks to my knowledge.

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ILCA Hello Boat Builder, would you like to build the Laser?

BB : What does that involve?

ILCA : Building a 14' dinghy to our exact specification and selling it delivered to dealers at a sufficiently low price so that they can resell it after a 50%+ mark up for $7,000.

BB  That is a tight margin if you want a high standard of consistency

ILCA ....and supply us with free loaner boats for the Olympics and other major regattas

BB  Will you supply the tooling?

ILCA No, you will build or buy your own tooling, and we expect you to invest in staff and resources to promote the class , and have staff to give a great service to the Laser dealer network. 

BB  This is quite an undertaking

ILCA You must carry a large inventory of spare parts to satisfy customers. This is the Amazon age and sailors expect replacement parts within a week.

BB  Inventory is expensive

ILCA And please dont forget you shall pay a fee to World sailing and the ILCA for the work we do in promoting the class.

BB But, wait, I thought....

ILCA What is the name of your lawyer?

BB  Why?

ILCA Just make sure, its a good one.

BB How many boats a year are sold in North America?

ILCA.  This is an iconic brand and the boat has been selected for the Olympics. The sky is the limit.

BB Okay, so there is a positive to all this

ILCA  Except that you cant use the brand name and you will not have exclusivity in your region.

BB Whaaaaat?     How much can I mark up the sails?

ILCA  Ahh, there's the rub. We have opened the sails to other suppliers so that sailors can buy directly from sailmakers to avoid the middleman.

BB :  The door is over there. Goodbye

ILCA : Dont you want to hear about the licensing fee and a company called BKI?    If you are interested, have your lawyers call our lawyers.

BB  Good day to you.

 

 

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11 minutes ago, IPLore said:

ILCA Hello Boat Builder, would you like to build the Laser?

BB : What does that involve?

ILCA : Building a 14' dinghy to our exact specification and selling it delivered to dealers at a sufficiently low price so that they can resell it after a 50%+ mark up for $7,000.

BB  That is a tight margin if you want a high standard of consistency

ILCA ....and supply us with free loaner boats for the Olympics and other major regattas

BB  Will you supply the tooling?

ILCA No, you will build or buy your own tooling, and we expect you to invest in staff and resources to promote the class , and have staff to give a great service to the Laser dealer network. 

BB  This is quite an undertaking

ILCA You must carry a large inventory of spare parts to satisfy customers. This is the Amazon age and sailors expect replacement parts within a week.

BB  Inventory is expensive

ILCA And please dont forget you shall pay a fee to World sailing and the ILCA for the work we do in promoting the class.

BB But, wait, I thought....

ILCA What is the name of your lawyer?

BB  Why?

ILCA Just make sure, its a good one.

BB How many boats a year are sold in North America?

ILCA.  This is an iconic brand and the boat has been selected for the Olympics. The sky is the limit.

BB Okay, so there is a positive to all this

ILCA  Except that you cant use the brand name and you will not have exclusivity in your region.

BB Whaaaaat?     How much can I mark up the sails?

ILCA  Ahh, there's the rub. We have opened the sails to other suppliers so that sailors can buy directly from sailmakers to avoid the middleman.

BB :  The door is over there. Goodbye

ILCA : Dont you want to hear about the licensing fee and a company called BKI?    If you are interested, have your lawyers call our lawyers.

BB  Good day to you.

 

 

LOL; that should fire up a few of the lemmings.  Come on wait for it.  Wait for it...

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11 minutes ago, IPLore said:

ILCA Hello Boat Builder, would you like to build the Laser?

BB : What does that involve?

ILCA : Building a 14' dinghy to our exact specification and selling it delivered to dealers at a sufficiently low price so that they can resell it after a 50%+ mark up for $7,000.

BB  That is a tight margin if you want a high standard of consistency

ILCA ....and supply us with free loaner boats for the Olympics and other major regattas

BB  Will you supply the tooling?

ILCA No, you will build or buy your own tooling, and we expect you to invest in staff and resources to promote the class , and have staff to give a great service to the Laser dealer network. 

BB  This is quite an undertaking

ILCA You must carry a large inventory of spare parts to satisfy customers. This is the Amazon age and sailors expect replacement parts within a week.

BB  Inventory is expensive

ILCA And please dont forget you shall pay a fee to World sailing and the ILCA for the work we do in promoting the class.

BB But, wait, I thought....

ILCA What is the name of your lawyer?

BB  Why?

ILCA Just make sure, its a good one.

BB How many boats a year are sold in North America?

ILCA.  This is an iconic brand and the boat has been selected for the Olympics. The sky is the limit.

BB Okay, so there is a positive to all this

ILCA  Except that you cant use the brand name and you will not have exclusivity in your region.

BB Whaaaaat?     How much can I mark up the sails?

ILCA  Ahh, there's the rub. We have opened the sails to other suppliers so that sailors can buy directly from sailmakers to avoid the middleman.

BB :  The door is over there. Goodbye

ILCA : Dont you want to hear about the licensing fee and a company called BKI?    If you are interested, have your lawyers call our lawyers.

BB  Good day to you.

 

 

Interesting, but I'm betting there are at least 3 new builders already lined up/signed up.  We'll know soon....

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3 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Interesting, but I'm betting there are at least 3 new builders already lined up/signed up.  We'll know soon....

It was intended as humor.

But being serious for a moment......I think we (the customers) tend to underestimate the challenges and economics of the boat building business.

If 3 "new" builders are added to the existing 3 builders ( I am assuming FRAND will require that LP is reappointed) then those economics do not get any easier. If they are unable to compete on the product then they can only compete on price. My bet would be that 6 builders become 2 in 5 years.

If they are able to compete on product, then the OD image of the Laser will wither, the boats will increase in price by 50%  and my bet would be that 6 builders become 2 in 5 years.

 

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3 minutes ago, IPLore said:

It was intended as humor.

But being serious for a moment......I think we (the customers) tend to underestimate the challenges and economics of the boat building business.

If 3 "new" builders are added to the existing 3 builders ( I am assuming FRAND will require that LP is reappointed) then those economics do not get any easier. If they are unable to compete on the product then they can only compete on price. My bet would be that 6 builders become 2 in 5 years.

If they are able to compete on product, then the OD image of the Laser will wither, the boats will increase in price by 50%  and my bet would be that 6 builders become 2 in 5 years.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, IPLore said:

It was intended as humor.

But being serious for a moment......I think we (the customers) tend to underestimate the challenges and economics of the boat building business.

If 3 "new" builders are added to the existing 3 builders ( I am assuming FRAND will require that LP is reappointed) then those economics do not get any easier. If they are unable to compete on the product then they can only compete on price. My bet would be that 6 builders become 2 in 5 years.

If they are able to compete on product, then the OD image of the Laser will wither, the boats will increase in price by 50%  and my bet would be that 6 builders become 2 in 5 years.

 

Good points.  If boat building was easy, (at least for sail boats) we'd surely have more of them.  My post is assuming LP is not re-instated.  I'm pretty sure we're going to get an NA builder and possibly one in China.  That's just my best guess though.  With some afterthought I agree 3 new builders might be a little difficult to sustain especially if our Australia and Japanese builders can pick up the pace a bit and figure out decent transport logistics.

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16 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

As the entire mess spins more and more out of control it may be profitable to do as is being done in South America and start building a boat That is enough like a Laser to satisfy the growing market of people who don’t give a rat’s ass about funding  International bureaucracies.

 

In a rare fit of complete candor I have been wondering for years why you don't do exactly that on a small scale test for your local area and club. You realize that is how some of the generic sails (that you and others can and do buy and use today) got started right?  Just a dude at a club where sailors had an interest and the dude had access to cloth and other essentials.  One fine frostbiting season... 

No I ain't joking or trolling and yes you should... and could.

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I see it narrowing down to two builders.  One in China who will probably do nothing but make fiberglass hulls.  Various importers will source hulls from the Chinese builder and kit them up to complete boats.  PSA will continue as a lower-volume boutique builder, selling at a higher price due to the perceived better quality/performance of their hulls.

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18 hours ago, bill4 said:

I imagine there will be something posted tomorrow. WS had to announce it first.

It is posted, with a thank you note from Tracy.

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23 minutes ago, bill4 said:

It is posted, with a thank you note from Tracy.

Come on; that is a nothing. 

But wait there is still more....

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12 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

For decades my position was, “I don’t want to be the guy who harms the fleet by providing non-official toys. I felt the builders, Kirby, and the association had a very special thing going where the extra funds collected were going right back into the game and the game was feeding the builder and the association. 

After the North American part  system was dismantled in 2002,  the Association abandoned its role, the builder dialed back and eventually quit supporting the association,  and with the LP destruction of the supply system, my reasons changed. 

Now I am not enthused about building generic, like a laser,  boats  because of an entire new set of reasons. 

1. I am not certain I could locally sell brand new identical to Laser toys for $3000. Those of us around here who care about having nice new boats also love to hit an occasional regatta. Our 10 to 40 year old boats are sufficiently competitive to sail our 15 minute Wednesday night races. In fact, a bunch of  brand new boats might do more harm than good. 

       a. All the other old boats would be slower

        b. People would be pissed about the fact the faster toys were not “legal.”

       c. As any exchange of dollars gives many people the attitude the seller is “in it for the money,” I do not want to be known (deservedly or not) the asshole who  fucked out the fleet to make a few bucks.

(re-stating for clarity. Let’s say I decided it was worth it to me to spend $25,000 to create a solid fleet in which I could play for the next fifteen years.  If it cost me $4000 per boat to build twenty five boats and I sold them for $3000 each, MOST PEOPLE would assume I made money building the 25 boats.)

2. If I build boats there will be more of the same bullshit thrown at me which is already being thrown at the current builders. There are people who see the sailing game as something to be exploited for personal financial  gain. There are people who see the sailing game as something that can provide them with a title and position of power. There are assholes who would pull every damned trick they could imagine to either cause me to submit to their control or drive me from the game. 

I will never again put myself in a position where outside influences, especially those who contribute nothing to the success of that which I am trying to achieve, can dictate how I make a living. 

3. Building Lasers is a lot of work and much of that work is smelly messy toxic work that I only ever did to pay my way through college so I would NEVER have to do that shit again.  Although I still do lots of filthy physical work, none of  it is the “daily grind” sort which would come with building more than a boat a month.  

4. I would have to go all in for at least a month to build molds and then store those, never good for making “real Lasers” molds forever.  Even after the master plugs were prepared ( which is not cheap), there  is no way the materials would cost less than $2000 to create hull and deck molds and I could be making money instead of doing all the work. 

5. I am not excited about being the supplier of toys for just one little group of people. There simply is no attractive fame and fortune fantasy in building toys for the local fleet. 

6. I really am becoming steadily more lazy as I age 

 

So, @Wess, thanks for causing me to put this in a re-visitable form. I should print it out and post it at my desk.  When I start to lose resolve, I can  re-read it. 

 

 

 

I both hear and agree with you and equally and honestly think there are answers to a lot of what you say there... but obviously it has to be something you want, not something somebody else (and certainly not me) pushes you into.  I would just ask you one question... are the folks that started the various generic sails widely hated by the class?  Or even known?  Would they be loved or hated if widely known?  The answer to that may influence your perspective. Anyway, this is way to serious a topic for this thread or forum.  If our ships ever cross we should have beers or something.

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Come on; that is a nothing. 

But wait there is still more....

Just saying it was there. 

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5 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 It looking good for Dooseythinghy Dinghies being on display at all the fall and winter boat shows. 

Of course factory dealer shows are not happening this year as pretty much all of those are over by the end of September.

and class legal builder supplied parts?? 

It is extremely doubtful anybody will have anything for Christmas Shoppers. 

 

Annapolis October.  That would be a huge venue to pop a Dooseythingy Dingy booth for a new builder!  I think that's a serious long shot, but man the timing would be perfect! 

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

2020?? No way anybody gets through the approval process in the next couple hundred hours 

The cone of silence has been held over the ILCA, WS and a few builders who have been hard at work negotiating. The announcements to follow will be orgasmic - resplendent with builder announcements and all kinds of other cool stuff. Wess will be shipping bottles of rum all over the world, and we will all  be in a better place. Peace.

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

2020?? No way anybody gets through the approval process in the next couple hundred hours 

well, if the builder was already going to be at the show... then it'd just be another model on their floor space

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1 hour ago, dgmckim said:

well, if the builder was already going to be at the show... then it'd just be another model on their floor space

Miami-International-Boat-Show.gif

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As long as the front doesn't fall off. You know, no cardboard derivatives and such :D

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9 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Is that dress carbon fiber?? 

Well I'm pretty sure there's at least some silicone in that lay up...

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13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

2020?? No way anybody gets through the approval process in the next couple hundred hours 

We don't know what we don't know.  Given the silence from ILCA I'd bet they have been in talks with potential new builders for close to a year already with lots of NDA's involved. You just don't push something over the cliff without a plan and I know the ILCA people on the board are too smart and level headed to NOT have a well thought out, (and probably semi pre-executed) plan in hand.

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11 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

My money is against this.  LP will be a supplier of the past, (IMHO).

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30 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

My money is against this.  LP will be a supplier of the past, (IMHO).

Well come on then... WHERE IS MY RUM???  If you are going to claim supply problems in the past then more than 6 months of NO APPROVED BUILDER FOR THE REGION AND FURTHER DELAYS TO GET A NEW ONE ON LINE AND UP TO SPEED sort of by logic wins my bet no?  Not to mention all the new fees where everyone and their brother bureaucrat gets to pick the pockets of grass roots sailors and take their money for nothing!! :P

Pay up mon!  Its getting to be scotch drinking season soon!!

 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Well I'm pretty sure there's at least some silicone in that lay up...

I have no problem bonding to that

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1 hour ago, Old Yeller said:

I notice the display says “tie up”. Are those instructions?

What display? Oh!! Now I see it...

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5 minutes ago, bill4 said:

What display? Oh!! Now I see it...

Takes a minute to refocus.

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Well come on then... WHERE IS MY RUM???  If you are going to claim supply problems in the past then more than 6 months of NO APPROVED BUILDER FOR THE REGION AND FURTHER DELAYS TO GET A NEW ONE ON LINE AND UP TO SPEED sort of by logic wins my bet no?  Not to mention all the new fees where everyone and their brother bureaucrat gets to pick the pockets of grass roots sailors and take their money for nothing!! :P

Pay up mon!  Its getting to be scotch drinking season soon!!

 

Not so fast.  Let's not forget LP was a big part of the supply issue.  ILCA has been vewy, vewy, quiet lately.  I believe they've been hunting wabbits!  Wait for it..... Also, considering LP wasn't delivering any new boats to NA, (that I'm aware of) with them out of the picture that has not improved, (yet) or gotten any worse...

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14 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Not so fast.  Let's not forget LP was a big part of the supply issue.  ILCA has been vewy, vewy, quiet lately.  I believe they've been hunting wabbits!  Wait for it..... Also, considering LP wasn't delivering any new boats to NA, (that I'm aware of) with them out of the picture that has not improved, (yet) or gotten any worse...

I think we all need to see the original bet. It has been a long time.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Not so fast.  Let's not forget LP was a big part of the supply issue.  ILCA has been vewy, vewy, quiet lately.  I believe they've been hunting wabbits!  Wait for it..... Also, considering LP wasn't delivering any new boats to NA, (that I'm aware of) with them out of the picture that has not improved, (yet) or gotten any worse...

LOL... "wait for it"... yes for sure there is more coming but I am starting to wonder if they will actually announce what has been done.  That said...

RUM FOUL!!!

Come on you know there are LPE boats here.  And how can you say it ain't got worse when there is no new builder on line (for 6 months) and can't be for many more months and there are lots of new fees. Less supply (none actually) and higher prices.  Actually horribly in-sanely high prices if you order a cheata boat direct from PSA!! 

I wants my rum!!!  :lol:

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24 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL... "wait for it"... yes for sure there is more coming but I am starting to wonder if they will actually announce what has been done.  That said...

RUM FOUL!!!

Come on you know there are LPE boats here.  And how can you say it ain't got worse when there is no new builder on line (for 6 months) and can't be for many more months and there are lots of new fees. Less supply (none actually) and higher prices.  Actually horribly in-sanely high prices if you order a cheata boat direct from PSA!! 

I wants my rum!!!  :lol:

Why all the hurry?  I'd rather things take a little longer than get thrown together fast and be half assed.  It's like this old joke.  Two bulls are sitting on a hill.  The young bull looks at the old bull and says, "Hey let's run down there and get one of those lady bulls for ourselves!"  the old bull looks at the young bull and says, "You run down and get one. I'm gonna walk down and get them all."

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34 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Why all the hurry?  I'd rather things take a little longer than get thrown together fast and be half assed.  It's like this old joke.  Two bulls are sitting on a hill.  The young bull looks at the old bull and says, "Hey let's run down there and get one of those lady bulls for ourselves!"  the old bull looks at the young bull and says, "You run down and get one. I'm gonna walk down and get them all."

Robbie - that poor old bull is going end up with sloppy seconds.  Gimme my rum!

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11 minutes ago, Wess said:

Robbie - that poor old bull is going end up with sloppy seconds.  Gimme my rum!

You're cracking me up!

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Why all the hurry?  I'd rather things take a little longer than get thrown together fast and be half assed.  It's like this old joke.  Two bulls are sitting on a hill.  The young bull looks at the old bull and says, "Hey let's run down there and get one of those lady bulls for ourselves!"  the old bull looks at the young bull and says, "You run down and get one. I'm gonna walk down and get them all."

“Lady” bull? Please. 

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57 minutes ago, tillerman said:

horizon-lady-bull-82-jpg.7196

Sorry - that is just wrong. I am from cattle country. Lady bull is like saying Woman Man.Worst name ever for a boat. 

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8 minutes ago, Curious said:

You mean you don’t have the occasional bull that dresses up like a heifer when out clubbing on Friday nights?

Well, not in many country bars, but Transvestite is a brutal name for a boat, too.

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16 hours ago, torrid said:

Sounds like a freemartin.

Good find! And a good name for a Laser Radial...:D

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28 minutes ago, Wess said:

On the topic of cows, bulls and heifers... or canntt, shanntt and ganntt... and ILCA's continued lack of any meaningful communication or approved builder network.... we now have:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/09/lasers-or-ilca-equipment-at-2024-paris.html

Oh what a tangled web

 

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46 minutes ago, Wess said:

On the topic of cows, bulls and heifers... or canntt, shanntt and ganntt... and ILCA's continued lack of any meaningful communication or approved builder network.... we now have:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/09/lasers-or-ilca-equipment-at-2024-paris.html

Oh what a tangled web

I'd classify this article as speculative ramblings from someone who's clearly on the outside, carries some kind of grudge against either the Laser, ILCA or both and is simply spouting their speculations in an attempt to stay relevant to their followers, (which I'm not one of) on the topic.

No, back to Lady Bulls....

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Well maybe somebody on the inside could tell us who is approved to manufacture whatever the boat is called (perhaps they could tell us this too) that is approved to sail in ILCA events?

In the mean time I will just drink my bull of the woods cocktail made from the first bottle that was sent to me by one of the lemmings who conceded.

http://drinkwire.liquor.com/post/bull-of-the-woods#gs.3k49ud

OK, truth be told I ain't making of drinking one of those.  Flame an orange peel.  Really?!  That is as NTTIAWWT as ILCA's recent communication or lack thereof!  :P

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On 9/13/2019 at 2:00 PM, bill4 said:

I think we all need to see the original bet. It has been a long time.

I second that. 

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5 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Meanwhile, LP continue to sell Lasers at the Southampton Boat Show.

That is not a surprise. Lasers are nice boats! I guess all the noise has not been enough for some people to move into an Aero, or one of the many other options available in the UK.

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I should have said they continue to have them for sale; I have no idea if they have actually sold any.  

I would only consider a new Laser if I was an ambitious youth squaddie or hooked on international masters events.  Even then I'd be wanting at least a £1000 off the retail price, what with it being old stock, out of season, no clear supply of spare parts, the possibility of eventual new builders being perceived as higher quality, the possibility of new rigs coming in and a general lack of confidence in the class and builders to protect my investment.  In the UK at least we have plenty of choice and Laser/ILCA are not making a compelling argument for why them. 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Meanwhile, LP continue to sell Lasers at the Southampton Boat Show.

Do they have plaques or are they discounted "practice Lasers"?

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

On the topic of cows, bulls and heifers... or canntt, shanntt and ganntt... and ILCA's continued lack of any meaningful communication or approved builder network.... we now have:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/09/lasers-or-ilca-equipment-at-2024-paris.html

Oh what a tangled web

 

3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I'd classify this article as speculative ramblings from someone who's clearly on the outside, carries some kind of grudge against either the Laser, ILCA or both and is simply spouting their speculations in an attempt to stay relevant to their followers, (which I'm not one of) on the topic.

No, back to Lady Bulls....

Nothing but trolling clickbait.

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I'd classify this article as speculative ramblings from someone who's clearly on the outside, carries some kind of grudge against either the Laser, ILCA or both and is simply spouting their speculations in an attempt to stay relevant to their followers, (which I'm not one of) on the topic.

No, back to Lady Bulls....

Which parts, specifically, do you not agree with?

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37 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Which parts, specifically, do you not agree with?

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

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46 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

And somebody gave him a link on Sailing Anarchy... so it worked. Shameful!

Is "Wess" really the Optiblogger?

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58 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

What he said.

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