Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Meanwhile, LP continue to sell Lasers at the Southampton Boat Show.

Do they have plaques or are they discounted "practice Lasers"?

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

On the topic of cows, bulls and heifers... or canntt, shanntt and ganntt... and ILCA's continued lack of any meaningful communication or approved builder network.... we now have:

https://optimist-openbic-sailing.blogspot.com/2019/09/lasers-or-ilca-equipment-at-2024-paris.html

Oh what a tangled web

 

3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I'd classify this article as speculative ramblings from someone who's clearly on the outside, carries some kind of grudge against either the Laser, ILCA or both and is simply spouting their speculations in an attempt to stay relevant to their followers, (which I'm not one of) on the topic.

No, back to Lady Bulls....

Nothing but trolling clickbait.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Do they have plaques or are they discounted "practice Lasers"?

Real ones I think.

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4 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I'd classify this article as speculative ramblings from someone who's clearly on the outside, carries some kind of grudge against either the Laser, ILCA or both and is simply spouting their speculations in an attempt to stay relevant to their followers, (which I'm not one of) on the topic.

No, back to Lady Bulls....

Which parts, specifically, do you not agree with?

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37 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Which parts, specifically, do you not agree with?

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

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46 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

And somebody gave him a link on Sailing Anarchy... so it worked. Shameful!

Is "Wess" really the Optiblogger?

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58 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

What he said.

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Real ones I think.

So if this is the case then that would be very interesting unless they still have some leftover plaques from the May deal.

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56 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Which part of that article actually puts forth any new information?  The Optiblog simply noticed his view count had fallen into the toilet and decided to do a pure rehash, complete with childlike speculation, to try to get some hits.

 

Is that a convoluted way of saying he said nothing wrong?

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6 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So if this is the case then that would be very interesting unless they still have some leftover plaques from the May deal.

May is out Borris is in now and it's No Deal

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1 minute ago, Dex Sawash said:

May is out Borris is in now and it's No Deal

LOL, I am not Bill Crane and I approved this message.

So what is the over under on what year ILCA finally decides to announce who is on line and building whatever the boat is now called for NA and Europe.  Or since its all about Asia now do we need to go search the Chinese press for an announcement? I mean there was suuccchhhh (;)) a supply problem here in the US its got to be absolutely horrible by now.  You can tell from all the screaming about the 6 months the market has been without any builder once ILCA booted LPE.

I am just waiting for Bill and Gouv to hook up and start making $3-4K generic versions of whatever ILCA finally decides to call the boat.  That's the announcement I want to see!!

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL, I am not Bill Crane and I approved this message.

So what is the over under on what year ILCA finally decides to announce who is on line and building whatever the boat is now called for NA and Europe.  Or since its all about Asia now do we need to go search the Chinese press for an announcement?

You got it. It's all about Asia now.

The whole Laser business model is screwed up because Lasers are so good. In particular they last for ever so why would anyone splurge on a new one when excellent second-hand ones are available for half the price or less?  North America and Europe are full to the gunwales with used Lasers in superb condition. Nobody wants to buy new ones except for those rich parents laboring under the delusion that little Brooks and Poppy will get to the Olympics if they have a new Laser for their birthdays every year.

Meanwhile the chances of any sailor from the USA winning an Olympic medal ever again just took another nose dive. 

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2019/09/16/USST-Greg-Fisher-USA-resigns-as-chief-operatingbusiness-officer-of-the-US-Sailing-Team-another-blow-to-American-Olympic-hopes-in-2020-and-beyond?utm_campaign=1d26a4d1-681c-411e-915a-ed3eb80c240e
 

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What rigs?? Are the Lasers ARC rigs? 

New game??

New class?? 

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49 minutes ago, tillerman said:

You got it. It's all about Asia now.

The whole Laser business model is screwed up because Lasers are so good. In particular they last for ever so why would anyone splurge on a new one when excellent second-hand ones are available for half the price or less?  North America and Europe are full to the gunwales with used Lasers in superb condition. Nobody wants to buy new ones except for those rich parents laboring under the delusion that little Brooks and Poppy will get to the Olympics if they have a new Laser for their birthdays every year.

Meanwhile the chances of any sailor from the USA winning an Olympic medal ever again just took another nose dive. 

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2019/09/16/USST-Greg-Fisher-USA-resigns-as-chief-operatingbusiness-officer-of-the-US-Sailing-Team-another-blow-to-American-Olympic-hopes-in-2020-and-beyond?utm_campaign=1d26a4d1-681c-411e-915a-ed3eb80c240e
 

Yeah.  Greg is a first class guy.  He did a hell of a job here in Charleston.  Whatever he does next will be great for someone.  Interested to understand what lead to him leaving US Sailing.

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

You got it. It's all about Asia now.

The whole Laser business model is screwed up because Lasers are so good. In particular they last for ever so why would anyone splurge on a new one when excellent second-hand ones are available for half the price or less?  North America and Europe are full to the gunwales with used Lasers in superb condition. Nobody wants to buy new ones except for those rich parents laboring under the delusion that little Brooks and Poppy will get to the Olympics if they have a new Laser for their birthdays every year.

Meanwhile the chances of any sailor from the USA winning an Olympic medal ever again just took another nose dive. 

https://www.sailingillustrated.com/single-post/2019/09/16/USST-Greg-Fisher-USA-resigns-as-chief-operatingbusiness-officer-of-the-US-Sailing-Team-another-blow-to-American-Olympic-hopes-in-2020-and-beyond?utm_campaign=1d26a4d1-681c-411e-915a-ed3eb80c240e
 

 

50 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Yeah.  Greg is a first class guy.  He did a hell of a job here in Charleston.  Whatever he does next will be great for someone.  Interested to understand what lead to him leaving US Sailing.

Something we can all agree on. Greg Fisher is first class. And his loss is a big loss for US Sailing. 

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Generally in the sports world, those who fail to win have a short tenure..... unless that sport is managed by USSailing. 

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On 9/16/2019 at 5:02 PM, Wess said:

 

Something we can all agree on. Greg Fisher is first class. And his loss is a big loss for US Sailing. 

It was a "big loss" until we found out this weekend that US Sailing has lost BOTH Greg Fisher AND Malcolm Page in the same week.......USS is redefining "big loss". 

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8 hours ago, IPLore said:

It was a "big loss" until we found out this weekend that US Sailing has lost BOTH Greg Fisher AND Malcolm Page in the same week.......USS is redefining "big loss". 

I only know of Malcolm through his results on the water.  He clearly was brought in touting a plan but... well... the team results...

I still think though that the biggest loss was the rum due to me.  Come on Robbie and Tracey. Pay up. No builder and many fees... equals rum for me!

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8 hours ago, IPLore said:

It was a "big loss" until we found out this weekend that US Sailing has lost BOTH Greg Fisher AND Malcolm Page in the same week.......USS is redefining "big loss". 

"To lose one highly regarded Olympic program leader may be regarded as a misfortune; to lose both looks like carelessness." - Oscar Wilde.

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So now we have three threads going on the US Olympic sailing team conundrum. 

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2 minutes ago, bill4 said:

So now we have three threads going on the US Olympic sailing team conundrum. 

True, but Wess is at least trying to keep this thread on track with his Rum claim.

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18 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

True, but Wess is at least trying to keep this thread on track with his Rum claim.

I would still like to see the original bet. Was there a timeframe contained in it?

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Geeze Bill; it ain't hard to find. If you canntt handle that may I suggest you switch fleets to the Aero?  :lol:

And yes, we don't need the tangent on the 2 staff losses at USSailing.  Heck, ILCA lost a whole factory.  And canntt seem to figure out what to tell folks about it.  :P

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31 minutes ago, Wess said:

Heck, ILCA lost a whole factory.  And canntt seem to figure out what to tell folks about it.  :P

They are plotting their next move on the grand chessboard for global dinghy dominance. They’ll let you know if they need something.

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I had fun and was even further back im the field... :D.   There were thingsthat could be better but certainly not a misirable event for this first timer....

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13 hours ago, bill4 said:

Maybe he is just cranky because he placed 40th

He should have bought a PSA cheater boat. 

In the positive news category those may be about the only boats you can buy and race in the class. If you have lots of money. 

Has anyone seen ILCA leadership? Did they come out of their bunker yet? B)

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

He should have bought a PSA cheater boat. 

In the positive news category those may be about the only boats you can buy and race in the class. If you have lots of money. 

Has anyone seen ILCA leadership? Did they come out of their bunker yet? B)

I'm expecting, (mostly hoping) for a bit of insight in the next Laser Sailor.  Deadline for articles was 9/15.  So, we should be seeing them soon.  Sherri is sending me a box of them for our D12 annual meeting and mentioned there's information the members will be interested in seeing.....When I know you'll know and we can set that date for drinks, (whoever buys..). ;-)

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8 hours ago, schj said:

I had fun ... :D.   

Which is exactly the idea!! Too many people forget that part.

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On ‎9‎/‎24‎/‎2019 at 7:19 AM, Wess said:

Geeze Bill; it ain't hard to find. If you canntt handle that may I suggest you switch fleets to the Aero?  :lol:

Naw - I am already sailing in a class dominated by old farts. And waaaaaaaaaay more of them! And you are implying there is actually a fleet of Aeros to join...

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Well alright, alright, alright.....The NA Laser Class just e-mailed a copy of the upcoming Laser Sailor magazine to all district secretaries.  I believe this is a first so +1.

Andy address a few nice updates in his Presidents letter +2

PSA has become a BIG advertiser and as of today you can buy a boat from them +3 or +4 and I'll take that Scotch Wess!

PSA will be providing apparently ALL charter boats as of now and of those it sounds like quite a few will be available for purchase after events.

Seriously, it's a little early to celebrate.  Let's see how easy it's going to be to get boats from AUS and how the parts/sail supply chain is going.  I still have my money on it's gonna be better than it was!

Andy also addresses the builder application/assignment plan in pretty good detail.  LPE can STILL play if they want, but it's clearly up to them.

While it's not a an all sweeping announcement it does shed a bit of light and lay out time tables for new builder on boarding.  

Want to ready the whole thing?  Join the class peeps!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Well alright, alright, alright.....The NA Laser Class just e-mailed a copy of the upcoming Laser Sailor magazine to all district secretaries.  I believe this is a first so +1.

Andy address a few nice updates in his Presidents letter +2

PSA has become a BIG advertiser and as of today you can buy a boat from them +3 or +4 and I'll take that Scotch Wess!

PSA will be providing apparently ALL charter boats as of now and of those it sounds like quite a few will be available for purchase after events.

Seriously, it's a little early to celebrate.  Let's see how easy it's going to be to get boats from AUS and how the parts/sail supply chain is going.  I still have my money on it's gonna be better than it was!

Andy also addresses the builder application/assignment plan in pretty good detail.  LPE can STILL play if they want, but it's clearly up to them.

While it's not a an all sweeping announcement it does shed a bit of light and lay out time tables for new builder on boarding.  

Want to ready the whole thing?  Join the class peeps!

You soooo owe me rum!!

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ILCA announced yesterday that they are now accepting preliminary applications for new builders. The announcement includes information about how applications will be assessed and when new builders will be expected to commence production.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/09/27/ilca-now-accepting-new-builder-applications/?fbclid=IwAR0OEA4ktnvqsOridp45WnQQdYaVW_cavHWsxNTBxXakYIfUDHtgK-IJ_Mg

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According to their ad, C-Vane is acting as their representative in North America.  Obviously used charter boats will be available, don't know about new boats.

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So nearly two years before new builders start production.  Europe will be lost by then to the Aero and a resurgent OK.  Possibly North America too.  

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25 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

So nearly two years before new builders start production.  Europe will be lost by then to the Aero and a resurgent OK.  Possibly North America too.  

North America is being supplied by PSA.

I can't see Europe being lost to the Aero, can anyone?

--- here's what ILCA said:

Quote

ILCA anticipates the first round to builder appointments will be complete by early 2020 and builders will be required to commence production no later than 12 months after the 2020 Olympics.

Are you sure with your two year prediction sosoomii?

"Early 2020" sounds a teensy weensy bit closer than two years.

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8 hours ago, tillerman said:

ILCA announced yesterday that they are now accepting preliminary applications for new builders. The announcement includes information about how applications will be assessed and when new builders will be expected to commence production.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/09/27/ilca-now-accepting-new-builder-applications/?fbclid=IwAR0OEA4ktnvqsOridp45WnQQdYaVW_cavHWsxNTBxXakYIfUDHtgK-IJ_Mg

Just one old experienced one design Dinghy builder’s reaction ::

I could, under some tightly controlled well defined limited liability circumstances,  be interested in joining with a consortium whose plan would be to serve the North American Laser game market. 

For that reason I have, for many decades,  tried to stay somewhat aware of the feasibility of doing so. 

From time to time, the possibilities have looked interesting. For the last many years, the lawsuits and general bickering have caused me to look only from a safe distance. 

The chattering about new builders and supply chains piqued my interest sufficiently to click on the link quoted above and start reading. 

My question: Is it time to get on the phone with the rest of “my idea of the perfect team,” or do I want to stay away from such a business. 

 

As I read the seemingly endless list of requirements I repeatedly muttered “go fuck yourselves” and occasionally laughed out loud. 

Briefly and accurately describing my reaction:

I want no part of it.

less briefly: 

There is no way I would commit my time and resources to any speculative business deal where so much control is held by outside forces. 

I ESPECIALLY would never give control of my very significant investment  to a group whose investment and financial risk is ZERO.

i laughed out loud at the $5000 deposit required by the non-investor controllers to apply to invest million$. 

The absolute ONLY reason I would consider entry in the described “permission to do business” process would be if I already had an existing factory and distribution network for the Laser Class sailboat. 

And ... If I had such an established business I would look seriously at options whereby I could simply sell my products without subjecting myself and my business to the control of the ILCA. 

And.. If that option seemed nonviable I would consider other more profitable uses for my facilities, staff, and capital. 

The same facilities and personnel suitable for small sailboat manufacturing  an generate a huge variety of marketable products. 

I shall not be picking up the phone, calling my favorite potential teammates, and asking if it is time to get together. 

In fact, I will be surprised by anyone who has the necessary million$ and expertise who decides to apply for permission to serve the alleged market. 

Fun image for you:

 

imagine a few guys from the ILCA standing in front and pitching this business to the Shark Tank  TV show panel  

I’m out

 

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18 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

North America is being supplied by PSA.

I can't see Europe being lost to the Aero, can anyone?

--- here's what ILCA said:

Are you sure with your two year prediction sosoomii?

"Early 2020" sounds a teensy weensy bit closer than two years.

How long is your impression of the time period from

now to 12 months after the 2020 Olympics . 

How long from “start of production” to supplies arriving at local dealerships?

How long until those boats will assemble in sufficient masses to create fleets and regattas?? 

How long is a bit closer?

How long is a teensy but closer?

Is a Teensy weensy bit more or less time ? 

 

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

North America is being supplied by PSA.

I can't see Europe being lost to the Aero, can anyone?

--- here's what ILCA said:

Are you sure with your two year prediction sosoomii?

"Early 2020" sounds a teensy weensy bit closer than two years.

12 months after the 2020 Olympics is not early 2020...

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- LPE can be appointed (though I think unlikely) and start spitting out boats “early 2020”.

- appointees must be in production by August 2021 at the latest, so let’s call that two years. So that is the time frame for the slowest appointee.  

- Gouv- what do you think the time frame is for an established builder to get up to speed? And a new one (notwithstanding your position)?

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1 hour ago, Gouvernail said:

Just one old experienced one design Dinghy builder’s reaction ::

As I read the seemingly endless list of requirements I repeatedly muttered “go fuck yourselves” and occasionally laughed out loud. 

Briefly and accurately describing my reaction:

I want no part of it......


Fun image for you:

imagine a few guys from the ILCA standing in front and pitching this business to the Shark Tank  TV show panel  

I’m out

 

sharktank1_626x319.jpg

"You're dead to me."

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On 9/27/2019 at 2:31 PM, RobbieB said:

Well alright, alright, alright.....The NA Laser Class just e-mailed a copy of the upcoming Laser Sailor magazine to all district secretaries.  I believe this is a first so +1.

Andy address a few nice updates in his Presidents letter +2

PSA has become a BIG advertiser and as of today you can buy a boat from them +3 or +4 and I'll take that Scotch Wess!

PSA will be providing apparently ALL charter boats as of now and of those it sounds like quite a few will be available for purchase after events.

Seriously, it's a little early to celebrate.  Let's see how easy it's going to be to get boats from AUS and how the parts/sail supply chain is going.  I still have my money on it's gonna be better than it was!

Andy also addresses the builder application/assignment plan in pretty good detail.  LPE can STILL play if they want, but it's clearly up to them.

While it's not a an all sweeping announcement it does shed a bit of light and lay out time tables for new builder on boarding.  

Want to ready the whole thing?  Join the class peeps!

No need to join the class.

Here is the newsletter... https://issuu.com/jbiehl/docs/lsrslr0919_proof1

And here's the PSA ad.

Screen_Shot_2019-09-28_at_6_26.16_PM.thumb.png.dc34de05e71b6f840e3449bd41edd3b8.png

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@Bruce Hudson Appointing builders in early 2020 is not the same as production starting. Builders will be required to commence production within 12 months of Tokyo 2020 - Q3 2021. 

Only a fool would wait two years to buy a Laser, especially given the risk of legal action causing delays to that.  Just move on and get something else - there are plenty of options.

 

 

 

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4 hours ago, sosoomii said:

@Bruce Hudson Appointing builders in early 2020 is not the same as production starting. Builders will be required to commence production within 12 months of Tokyo 2020 - Q3 2021. 

Only a fool would wait two years to buy a Laser, especially given the risk of legal action causing delays to that.  Just move on and get something else - there are plenty of options.

Yawn. Two years? Yeah nah.

6 hours ago, bill4 said:

appointees must be in production by August 2021 at the latest, so let’s call that two years. So that is the time frame for the slowest appointee.  

Bill is 100% correct.

Quote

ILCA anticipates the first round to builder appointments will be complete by early 2020 and builders will be required to commence production no later than 12 months after the 2020 Olympics.

Part of the final approval process is confirming that the boats are produced correctly. So sosoomii, actually appointing the builder is the same as starting production. 

7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

How long from “start of production” to supplies arriving at local dealerships?

About as long as the freight companies take to deliver.

Focusing on the worst scenario are we?

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Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

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20 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

I think the net result of staying in the Oylmpics is one or two builders will stay viable, and the ILCA will be able to continue to hold championships with builder-supplied boats (including youth and masters).

For grass roots level sailing, they Olympics is not much of a consideration.  It will continue its general decline, but used boats and fake parts will keep it going regardless of Olympic/builder/class shenanigans.

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5 hours ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

I don't think the Laser would have lost a huge percentage of its sailors in either scenario. The Laser is going to continue to be very popular at the grass roots level for many years to come.

Having said that, the Laser would probably be an even more healthy class if it had never gone anywhere near the Olympics.

The only winner out of this crazy Olympic selection process is the RS Aero. It has all the prestige of winning the trials but it doesn't have to deal with what you call "all the shit" that now goes with actually being an Olympic class. 

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Around here, the problem with the AERO is pretty much the same as with the Laser. Nobody is selling any. 

Yhere will be no healthy singlehanded game around here until somebody starts pumping new toys into the sailing clubs. 

 

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9 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Around here, the problem with the AERO is pretty much the same as with the Laser. Nobody is selling any. 

Yhere will be no healthy singlehanded game around here until somebody starts pumping new toys into the sailing clubs. 

 

I think this is a red herring to a certain extent. Here in the uk the supply of new toys is fine , if I wanted I could have a new laser , aero , d zero , British moth , solo , comet, Lightning, streaker , musto skiff or any number of boats with weeks or at least a couple of months . That doesn’t mean the sailing in general though out the country is healthy because it is not , it’s a shrinking market with an aging demographic.

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The licensing, commercial interests and disputes are mostly independent to the decision to retain the Laser as an Olympic class. (In fact, they are reasons to not retain the Laser)

World Sailing is involved once they recognize a class as international.

The growth of the Laser is assisted by the class being Olympic, however is not entirely dependent on it.

It is complex and dynamic.

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We have tons of youth sailors and 150 new people moving to our community DAILY. All we need is an obvious simple source of toys and we will have hundreds of new sailors. 

On most weekends we have an introduction to sailing school. At heady 40 show up each week. There is no dealer there saying, “I can give you a test ride any day this week. Let’s arrange financing.”

 

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20 hours ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

Why all the drama people?  Its not like you couldn't see this coming from miles away.  And Bill, only an idiot would think either of those are true.  Laser's strength is at grass roots and clubs.  I never understood before why why so few club level sailors joined ILCA.  Now I do.  But again its not a big deal and just doesn't matter.

What I hope is now that ILCA have kicked the door wide open that somebody - multiple somebodies - builds and sells generic Lasers.  Club level Laser; call them whatever you want.  Just like generic sails and generic parts.  Don't want or need a sticker for club level events.  Same boat only a lot cheaper and more durable. This is exactly what happened with sails and should happen with boats.  At least I hope it does. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

 And Bill, only an idiot would think either of those are true.  

Seems there were suggestions the Laser class was facing doom with the occurrence of one or the other. There certainly seemed to be support for suggestion 1) at the outset which was replaced by suggestion 2). I was just curious what people thought. You use the word "idiot" frequently, Wess. Just like this guy:

  • Image result for moe from three stooges
    :P
     
     
     
     

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What's the matter Bill?  Bad weekend?  See the price you have to pay for a new Laser LOL?

But to answer your question, more than anyone I think ILCA pushed #1 and the agenda that the sky would fall absent the Olympics.  I sure don't believe it but we will not know until after 2024 at the earliest.

On #2 you would have to say what you mean by lose?  Do you mean a.) lose from the class (ie not join or rejoin ILCA) or b.) lose from standpoint of not racing the boat.  If you mean lose from the class as in not rejoin... I doubt it.  Its anoter reason to not join but folks at the club level generally didn't join anyway.  And sure supply will be worse and boats will cost more but class members voted for it and I doubt most traveling Laser sailors (the type who do join ILCA) are all that price sensitive. If there are event boats they can buy all will be fine.  Non-event.  If you mean lose from racing at the club level I again doubt there is much impact.  Despite al the BS flung around about shortages the truth is there is little market for new Lasers, especially at the club level and so again the higher pricing will not matter.  It could actually be a positive at the club level if generic boats come to be in the same way as generic parts and sails.

I think for both your points the vote and subsequent changes were a non-event.  Now when the new rigs come home to roost that may well be another story.

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17 minutes ago, Wess said:

What's the matter Bill?  Bad weekend?  See the price you have to pay for a new Laser LOL?

But to answer your question, more than anyone I think ILCA pushed #1 and the agenda that the sky would fall absent the Olympics.  I sure don't believe it but we will not know until after 2024 at the earliest.

On #2 you would have to say what you mean by lose?  Do you mean a.) lose from the class (ie not join or rejoin ILCA) or b.) lose from standpoint of not racing the boat.  If you mean lose from the class as in not rejoin... I doubt it.  Its anoter reason to not join but folks at the club level generally didn't join anyway.  And sure supply will be worse and boats will cost more but class members voted for it and I doubt most traveling Laser sailors (the type who do join ILCA) are all that price sensitive. If there are event boats they can buy all will be fine.  Non-event.  If you mean lose from racing at the club level I again doubt there is much impact.  Despite al the BS flung around about shortages the truth is there is little market for new Lasers, especially at the club level and so again the higher pricing will not matter.  It could actually be a positive at the club level if generic boats come to be in the same way as generic parts and sails.

I think for both your points the vote and subsequent changes were a non-event.  Now when the new rigs come home to roost that may well be another story.

Bad weekend? Nope - unless you dislike 8" of snow on the ground... And my boat is in perfect condition (other than being covered by the aforementioned snow).

From a racing perspective, I think that the Laser is well insulated from decline by the massive - and growing - Masters program. Not only are the numbers of competitors greatest at this end of the line, but it is also the demographic that buys boats. So - the Olympics would not have had much impact on this one way or the other.

Concerning club boats and grassroots, I don't know. I tend to lean more to Gouv's thoughts that if boats are available, people will buy them. But speaking of Grass Roots, here is a beauty. For some reason, the video wouldn't copy directly...

https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+grass+roots+let's+live+for+today+jimmy+durante+intro&qpvt=the+grass+roots+let's+live+for+today+jimmy+durante+intro&view=detail&mid=3D7AE0A5F649B43E38A93D7AE0A5F649B43E38A9&&FORM=VRDGAR

 
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3 hours ago, Wess said:

Why all the drama people?  Its not like you couldn't see this coming from miles away.  And Bill, only an idiot would think either of those are true.  Laser's strength is at grass roots and clubs.  I never understood before why why so few club level sailors joined ILCA.  Now I do.  But again its not a big deal and just doesn't matter.

What I hope is now that ILCA have kicked the door wide open that somebody - multiple somebodies - builds and sells generic Lasers.  Club level Laser; call them whatever you want.  Just like generic sails and generic parts.  Don't want or need a sticker for club level events.  Same boat only a lot cheaper and more durable. This is exactly what happened with sails and should happen with boats.  At least I hope it does. 

I join any class of boat I'm sailing/racing to support the boat and class from a support and development side.  I'm a member of US Sailing because I'm a competitive sailor.  Over the past few year I've disagreed with a lot of what, (or what doesn't) happen at US Sailing, but they are our national governing body.  Without support they'd be in trouble and ultimately that would be bad for the sport. 

Sorta like the last presidential election.  I didn't like either candidate, but I voted for one of them...

ILCA has gotten smart and realized the revenue to run a proper class is difficult to get from dues so they've raised the parts tariff.  

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23 hours ago, bill4 said:

Alright, alright. We know you guys enjoy taking a run at Cannt and the Bruce's, and love slinging shit ILCA's way, but which of the following do you honestly believe: 

1) Had the Aero been awarded the Olympic spot, the Laser would have lost a lot of sailors

2) Although the Laser has been awarded the Olympic spot, given all the shit that goes along with it, they are going to lose a lot of sailors

And if you say "both", which one would cause the greatest loss?

 

1. Would have lost sailors definitely.  Lots?  That would depend on the Laser class response, but globally a fair few.

2. Only if the cock it up by reducing supply, increasing cost, creating uncertainty and damaging the brand.  That wasn't inevitable but they are on a full house so far!

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I join any class of boat I'm sailing/racing to support the boat and class from a support and development side.  I'm a member of US Sailing because I'm a competitive sailor.  Over the past few year I've disagreed with a lot of what, (or what doesn't) happen at US Sailing, but they are our national governing body.  Without support they'd be in trouble and ultimately that would be bad for the sport. 

Sorta like the last presidential election.  I didn't like either candidate, but I voted for one of them...

ILCA has gotten smart and realized the revenue to run a proper class is difficult to get from dues so they've raised the parts tariff.  

Yea I had also been a member and argued that one should join to support the class. I only left when I stopped racing and went cruising with the Admiral.  But not just because it was the "right" thing to do - if you don't truly get value... if the class or USS or WS don't provide value people are not going to keep joining - but I honestly believe that last round the class was between a rock and hard place and did an amazing job to keep the supply of boats going while being sued (unfairly IMHO) by Kirby.  So I really felt my money was going towards something good. Now...?

Now I feel like (I am sure) ILCA purposely by design put itself in the middle (don't get me wrong; smart strategy and LPE fell for it stupid gits got what they deserved) and fought for this outcome and clearly don't give a sh*t about grass roots or club level sailing or even developed areas at all.   Its all about Olympics and all about Asia.  That I don't agree at all.  There were a few straws that broke this camel's back (hidden fees piled on people who ain't even racing the boat, the win at any cost mentality of ILCA leadership, etc...).  I agree your line about: "ILCA has gotten smart and realized the revenue to run a proper class is difficult to get from dues so they've raised the parts tariff."  The problem is however eventually people realize their pockets are being picked by somebody who don't care about them and at that stage its hard to convince folks to join. "They already screwed me and now you want me to pay them more to join?!"... I think is the fair reaction.  I still love the boat and local fleet. If I did race agin about the only thing I would change is to not rejoin ILCA. I honestly can't think of a single reason to join. 

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I like the outlook for sailmakers to the new "Laser Generic"  class better than the outlook for builders.

Boat building is a tough business. Volume does not equal profit unless there is a decent margin. There is no economic moat here.......no brand, no regional exclusivity, no value placed on a dealer network or customer service, no product differentiation.....this effectively becomes a commodity product sold on price......with a race to the bottom. 

Someone will start selling Laser Generics online. Dealers will go the same way as book stores and focus more on boats and classes where they can add value. Two global builders will survive and break even with a lower cost structure than their competitors. PSA will merge with LP .  The market will bottom with competition reduced.....and then "Gucci" versions will appear with  $2,000 "go-fast" extras.

Gradually the two surviving builders will return to profitability with tacit unspoken agreement of "areas of influence" where the dominant supplier will set pricing. Better margins will support better service and dealers will start to reappear. The brand name will get re-established.  The dealers and builders will have margins that enable them to start participating in promoting the class, the events and the brand again. Folks will start talking about the renaissance of the Laser Class.......then.......suddenly.......without warning.......World sailing will drop the Laser from the Olympics and select the Firefly once again as the single handed dinghy.  The two builders will appeal to WS Council. Ws responds by referring to the decades old 2020 agreement and terminate both builders.  Legal complaints will start flying, there will be no builder, and most importantly, .........Wess will reappear on these forums to claim his bottle of rum!

Please refer to page 145 of this thread for more details.

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Wess, your basic gripe is the ILCA does not provide any value to you as a local grass roots competitor, you don't value your voting rights on any of the international issues and management, and finally,  you disagree on principal with the class direction.   

Been there  and done that with the A class..... My question is...  What international class have you seen that does make a contribution to the local grass roots sailing scene.     I could not find a different model to point to.... In fact.... the best comment I got was from the 505 class  member/leadership who said... Yeah.... our guys don't pay their class dues until they want to go the Worlds.... Its just the way they are....  

From my perspective,  those sailors who want to go to worlds should pay the whole cost for the event ....   no need to tax me at the local level for their fun.

So...  what COULD the ILCA and or  the NA class actually do for you as a local club sailor and secondly, do you know of another class that does a decent job of tending to the local scene?

My only idea beyond coordinating a sensible regional regatta schedule was to pay a small stipend to a sailor who would generate a regatta report and results and pics within a few days of an event for the  members only part of the class web site.     Nobody ever thinks this is a good idea tho.

What do you want from the ILCA?

 

 

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It can be argued that the most important thing a CA does for the grass roots of its class is to keep the class lively and second hand values up. I've observed that if a CA is ineffectual or collapses the value of the boats nosedives in very short order, as does demand for them, new or secondhand.

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3 minutes ago, torrid said:

Does anyone know what has become of the LPE Laser factory in the UK?

I heard it was disassembled and moved to Australia.

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14 minutes ago, torrid said:

Does anyone know what has become of the LPE Laser factory in the UK?

I heard it was taken over by a company who make ironing boards.

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58 minutes ago, JimC said:

It can be argued that the most important thing a CA does for the grass roots of its class is to keep the class lively and second hand values up. I've observed that if a CA is ineffectual or collapses the value of the boats nosedives in very short order, as does demand for them, new or secondhand.

Well that sets up the obvious free rider problem.  But,  Let me challenge that argument.

Anybody ever estimate the imputed value that a national or international racing class offers....  I question how a top down mechanism can work.    It seems to me.... that the actual value machinery for the class is the bottom up actual local racing scene. ... its not like you can fold the boat up and put it on a plane to your next international event.   even selling your small boat has a limit as to how far you will drive to get rid of it. So, Boat value is about supply and demand..... the supply (usually is the easy part.... but see Laser) is easy.... the demand for race boats is driven by the demand for local racing.     I don't think the national scene is irrelevant... just not the driver that gets me to join the class assn or does all that much for my boat value.

 I can see two possible mechanism for  a national class assn to create value.   First It could add actual value when the sailors competing nationally  also anchor your local  or regional competitive season by competing there as well  You create the experience of belonging to a larger world.   . So this is a bit of chicken and egg. situation.....   The second alternative is that you have  a national class where a handful of events move around the country and finish with a winter circuit  in Florida (eg A class).... In this case... the grass roots are defined upwards  as those sailors competing throughout the country.  (then again.... the similarities between A class and a one design are night and day)  Usually, these national classes like the CC 30 one design last a few years and then fall apart. 

So I am open to an actual mechanism for the value add by the national class association and any idea how they should help the local racing scene in their countries.  

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

I heard it was taken over by a company who make ironing boards.

You raise a good point.

Cater to the market

Wouldnt you rather have one of these than a dated dinghy?

Dang I want one......if they had this when I left college, I probabaly never would have bought that first boat.

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16 hours ago, Tcatman said:

Wess, your basic gripe is the ILCA does not provide any value to you as a local grass roots competitor, you don't value your voting rights on any of the international issues and management, and finally,  you disagree on principal with the class direction.   

Been there  and done that with the A class..... My question is...  What international class have you seen that does make a contribution to the local grass roots sailing scene.     I could not find a different model to point to.... In fact.... the best comment I got was from the 505 class  member/leadership who said... Yeah.... our guys don't pay their class dues until they want to go the Worlds.... Its just the way they are....  

From my perspective,  those sailors who want to go to worlds should pay the whole cost for the event ....   no need to tax me at the local level for their fun.

So...  what COULD the ILCA and or  the NA class actually do for you as a local club sailor and secondly, do you know of another class that does a decent job of tending to the local scene?

My only idea beyond coordinating a sensible regional regatta schedule was to pay a small stipend to a sailor who would generate a regatta report and results and pics within a few days of an event for the  members only part of the class web site.     Nobody ever thinks this is a good idea tho.

What do you want from the ILCA?

 

 

As a District Secretary I'll chime in on what a CA does for you, (or at least the ILCA does).  #1 First and foremost if you don't ask or participate it'll do absolutely nothing! (other than drop a quarterly magazine in your mailbox).  #2- IF you correspond with the class office they'll do just about any damned thing you ask!  Need money for awards?  Done.  Need money for a district mailer?  Done.  Need promotional items, (like a box of laser sailor mags to distribute at an event)? Done!  Need district data on where membership is trending?  Done! Need a list of what membership has done in the district over the last 5+ years? Done!  Need contact info for all active and non-active members?  Done!!!!  

It's really like anything else in life.  You get out of it what you put in.  We've worked hard in our district over the past few years and finally this year we've begun to see appreciable results in new members, boats selling pretty quickly to new sailors or existing members looking to upgrade hulls.  A big jump in Jr sailor participation and a nice bump in our masters group.  

You can choose to sit around a bitch about how it sucks and guess what?  It will suck.... I've bitched about boat and parts supply, but I've also become the area "boat finder" to help people get boats, (not new boats of course) and we waived the class parts rule so if you break something and the class legal part is unattainable you can get the non-legal part, (or- God help us all...the knock off new laser sail. oh the horror!).  

Through a very difficult time in class history we've actually managed to grow and the class office has supported us whenever we asked. Also, when I've reached out to Andy or Tracey through private e-mail they have always responded within a day or two.  

They are there folks and they do things, but if you like the "don't ask, don't tell" motto then carry on with the miserable speculations regarding the inevitable fall of the largest OD class on the planet.. 

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17 hours ago, IPLore said:

Wess will reappear on these forums to claim his bottle of rum!

 

I won fair and square and have tried to claim my rum NOW but the bums keep ducking.  Still a victory as those lemmings know in their heart I was right, LOL.

12 hours ago, IPLore said:

... than a dated dinghy?

 

ILCA's answer to that is to put a new and overpriced rig and sail onto it.  If you canntt force people to buy new boats so you can collect hidden fees then force them to put new rigs and sails into old boats!

But seriously that dated dinghy is loved by many.  It ain't the boat.  Its the fleets and great close racing. 

And besides, most of the lemmings sailing it are pretty damn dated themselves!!

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This:

 

50 minutes ago, Wess said:

It ain't the boat.  Its the fleets and great close racing. 

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True, big spenders have already moved on to A-Class, Wasp, Moth, UFO, Musto Skiff, etc. Therefore the Laser will remain the "go to" singlehanded dinghy because all these new Lasers that are going to be built will actually be out on the race course with cheap second hand Lasers. 

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

I won fair and square

what was the original bet? that prices would go up? it was so long ago i can't even remember the terms. i'm not so sure that you've won, more like you have yet to lose the bet.

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Geeze, doesn't anyone do their own research anymore? Basically higher prices and lower supply.  Given all the added fees and that boats now need to be shipped to EU and NA from  Australia the higher prices are obvious.  Heck PSA boats were already much more expensive (currency adjusted) than LPE boats in their own respective territories.  So you would have to come up with one heck of a whopper to say prices are lower.  Same for supply.  The lemmings claimed there was a huge supply issue in NA (not really so... there just ain't buyers... but its what they claimed).  Now Instead of mfg capacity for about 2500 boats/year they are down to about 500 boats per year and by their own press it will be at least a year from when they booted LPE before they even get a new builder (I have my doubt that they actually have anyone in NA or EU that can and will complete the process) approved and on-line, never mind up to the original mfg and sales # capacity before the termination. So given 500 is less than 2500; supply is less.  Good grief I even got our lightning stuck tri back in the water and the freezer stocked with ice.  I was so looking forward to Robbie and Tracy and all serving the wife and I drinks and pulling strings. 

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2 hours ago, spankoka said:

True, big spenders have already moved on to A-Class, Wasp, Moth, UFO, Musto Skiff, etc. Therefore the Laser will remain the "go to" singlehanded dinghy because all these new Lasers that are going to be built will actually be out on the race course with cheap second hand Lasers. 

I’m not sure it is the go to singlehander in the UK anymore. Maybe at the bargain basement level, but builders (and ILCA) don’t make money off these folk.  Maybe also at squad level.  But at competitive club level I’d say Aeros and Solos are where it’s at.

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The UK is an outlier here because dinghies matter in the UK-and that's a good thing! It's not necessarily the same in the rest of the world. It's Laser or nothing for me in terms of a singlehanded dinghy that has a local fleet. Even if I had a Bazzillion dollars, I think I would stick with my Laser fleet. If some of the well-financed people in my fleet buy  a brand newish ILCA from Australia,  or the Tokyo 2020 fleet, or wherever, that's a good thing.

 
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2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I’m not sure it is the go to singlehander in the UK anymore. Maybe at the bargain basement level, but builders (and ILCA) don’t make money off these folk.  Maybe also at squad level.  But at competitive club level I’d say Aeros and Solos are where it’s at.

 

24 minutes ago, spankoka said:

The UK is an outlier here because dinghies matter in the UK-and that's a good thing! It's not necessarily the same in the rest of the world. It's Laser or nothing for me in terms of a singlehanded dinghy that has a local fleet. Even if I had a Bazzillion dollars, I think I would stick with my Laser fleet. If some of the well-financed people in my fleet buy  a brand new ILCA from Australia or wherever, that's a go

 

You people are making me feel very nostalgic for the Old Country.
 

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Definitely sailing in Canada is what it is because of the post-war immigrants from the UK. 

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23 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

This’ll stop any nostalgia.  At least Jack Sparrow doesn’t seem to be a Laser sailor.

Maybe I will just have to move to Australia then.

I hear you can buy Lasers there too.

Nick+Aero+Sydney.jpg

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