Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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17 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

Wess seems all too eager to unpack his Christmas presents prematurely.

Or, in racing terms, sometimes, there's no wind, and the start needs to be postponed...

You are saying they will finally name the US and EU based builders they promised for Christmas? So "soon" equals nine months in ILCA speak, LOL.

 

 

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3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Posted today on Facebook.

260045938_ScreenShot2019-11-17at6_55_41PM.thumb.png.8406fb607201401ec618388538fdae36.png1131977361_ScreenShot2019-11-17at6_51_35PM.thumb.png.cfd7ed95f1a77f6afe1aca21e9d34d88.png



 

"We are aware of at least one instance of  where a non class member voted using the name of another class member "

 The RRS have a remedy for someone doing that sort of thing. 

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4 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

To my Eurilca friends: A US (White House) politician recently uttered these infamous words

Get over it!

You forgot the 'we do it all the time' part .

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14 hours ago, tillerman said:

Posted today on Facebook.

260045938_ScreenShot2019-11-17at6_55_41PM.thumb.png.8406fb607201401ec618388538fdae36.png1131977361_ScreenShot2019-11-17at6_51_35PM.thumb.png.cfd7ed95f1a77f6afe1aca21e9d34d88.png



 

Oh good grief.  Pray tell who signed their name to that?

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2 hours ago, torrid said:

We could all guess a few names.

Would they be class members? Or?

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Hold your horses, guys.

In this age of desinformation and fake news.. a post on social media of a picture of piece of paper of dubious origin and without a signature.. I am not convinced.

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Well, as point 1 at least was equally if not more true for the fundamental rule change that kept LPE as a builder after they stopped paying royalties, presumably any signatories of that letter consider that vote was invalid too, so LPE are not entitled to build Lasers anyway...

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If I may jump in,

There are some very big advantages of being a Int class.

But there is also significant down side also.

The most obvious up side is the right to hold a World Championship, and don't underestimate that, also sailors tend to be able to invest with confidence knowing that their association is governed and overseen by WS and in some cases that can also allow you to be Olympic.    Their is a specific Olympic contract, that non Olympic classes don't have to adhere to and a newly added part of that Olympic contract is FRAND.

And the advantages to being Olympic are significant, you only need to see those trying to get in that door to justify that premise!

The downside of being a Int class is mostly cost and bureaucracy, the more popular you are, the more cost and more bureaucracy and of-course if you get to Olympic status or worse still, Youth World status, those 2 reach fever pitch.

The biggest issue with that is 99% (quite literally) of Int class associations are based on a doc stolen from the Star and enshrined by the Laser by the late great(s) Ian Bruce and Ward McKim in the 60's and have not changed since.   The 2 stand out classes that have broken that nexus and entered the 21st century are the Nacra and the 49er/FX who both have effectively fB associations.     The days of border control have long passed. Had a very amusing conversation a few months back demanding that the boats in China form a NCA.   Like that is ever going to happen!!!!!!!!!!    How naive!!!      But they are all on WeChat or fB and that's just fine.

The ILCA fly the tech officer around the world a few times a year, just re compliance, and some builders have been found wanting, I understand the last fiasco had to do with more women sailing the boats (has to be a good thing) and those boats being towed at high speed behind coach boats (or that was the excuse anyway) so a MNA (who shall remain nameless)  pursued a builder (who shall also remain nameless) to stop the problems happening.   

If you had a more effective "fB" association, that issue would have been sorted out and a agreement found long before a Tech Officer had to do a Sherlock Holmes!

Regardless, amortise that over the number of boats sold, and it's a significant chunk of the purchase price!    WRT the 29er, the YW's is a really significant proportion of the price!

So the fact that a builder starts building boats that can be called what ever, outside the constraints of a int class for a substantial amount less, could even be said to be a good thing.

The looser in all this is the Int sailing community.    And until that is re-structured (and that vote failed at WS, in Bermuda, everything else in-fact fades into insignificance) then it will continue to be chronically under-funded and there fore under staffed.   Jaime can only do so much, Kim can only play the cards he has been dealt.   I note with amusement on another string about WS finances.    This is not the first time WS has run out of money in my time there.   One time before they passed the hat around.    I happen to know Kim very well, and being a Danne, he dose not do it that way, (even though I have no doubt he easily could, given the circles he lives in). In his mind, it has to stand on it's own feet!    And I do find it super amusing that at the Council, ex-Exc members grilling the existing Exc over their handling of the problems the ex-Exc made.    Very ironic!

Back to ILCA, I was in PSA last week, for the best part of the day, no shortage of boats going out the door, no shortage of people buying 100 boats at a time, the big issue is production, I think they are just at 50/month at the moment, but they are working to up that level, all the time.     A new set of hull and deck moulds almost weekly at present.  That's massive.     Just as a side note, I also cut my teeth under Ian Bruce in Hymus Boulevard, in Montreal in 1978. they where doing 100+ Lasers a week.   130 French Canadian women worked there, about 25 of us blocks.     PSA has a lot of girls working and the QC of the boats is impressive.     It's the same old story!

Also while there I was read the list of prospective builders, it's a long list.    I knew 10 of them, but some I have never heard of!   Without even asking the question, the issue is who is going to manage this??      What people don't get is that to start a new builder means that a existing builder or someone skilled and motivated to make it happen has to live in a foreign country/factory for 4-6 weeks to bring it on line.    Then they have to go back there 2-3 time in the next 18 months.   It's a huge commitment!

They have to pick who they start with first, and who is going to go there and oversee it.    My guess is they will be lucky to start 2 builders in 2020.   Remember Takao is out of it with the Olympics, so that means Caldecott, and he has 3 months of Laser Worlds in Victoria so he won't want to leave Erina for any length of time, especially given the work-load he is under.     I have seen a lot of Lasers built, but I would be hopelessly under qualified.   (nor do I have the time)    So whom????    It ain't that easy!

At least the ILCA get that, and that is VERY rare for a ICA!!     Most people think that anyone can build a bit of FRP, what a joke that is!     The world is littered with people who thought it was that simple.       

It [ILCA] has some issue to contend with, and I completely get why they and being very choosy as to whom they jump with first.

In Bermuda, Eric kept saying that anyone who for-fills the criteria has to be given a license under FRAND and the reality is that's just impossible!    The inevitability is it's a disaster!

To be in Chris, Takao or Tracy's shoes at present is not a nice place to be!    God help Eric and Clive once a decision is made!

And I believe they are all together, builders, EXC and Tech people in Texas very shortly.   No doubt it will be very high on the agenda.

               jB

 

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8 hours ago, JulianB said:

If I may jump in,

There are some very big advantages of being a Int class.

But there is also significant down side also.

The most obvious up side is the right to hold a World Championship, and don't underestimate that, also sailors tend to be able to invest with confidence knowing that their association is governed and overseen by WS and in some cases that can also allow you to be Olympic.    Their is a specific Olympic contract, that non Olympic classes don't have to adhere to and a newly added part of that Olympic contract is FRAND.

And the advantages to being Olympic are significant, you only need to see those trying to get in that door to justify that premise!

The downside of being a Int class is mostly cost and bureaucracy, the more popular you are, the more cost and more bureaucracy and of-course if you get to Olympic status or worse still, Youth World status, those 2 reach fever pitch.

The biggest issue with that is 99% (quite literally) of Int class associations are based on a doc stolen from the Star and enshrined by the Laser by the late great(s) Ian Bruce and Ward McKim in the 60's and have not changed since.   The 2 stand out classes that have broken that nexus and entered the 21st century are the Nacra and the 49er/FX who both have effectively fB associations.     The days of border control have long passed. Had a very amusing conversation a few months back demanding that the boats in China form a NCA.   Like that is ever going to happen!!!!!!!!!!    How naive!!!      But they are all on WeChat or fB and that's just fine.

The ILCA fly the tech officer around the world a few times a year, just re compliance, and some builders have been found wanting, I understand the last fiasco had to do with more women sailing the boats (has to be a good thing) and those boats being towed at high speed behind coach boats (or that was the excuse anyway) so a MNA (who shall remain nameless)  pursued a builder (who shall also remain nameless) to stop the problems happening.   

If you had a more effective "fB" association, that issue would have been sorted out and a agreement found long before a Tech Officer had to do a Sherlock Holmes!

Regardless, amortise that over the number of boats sold, and it's a significant chunk of the purchase price!    WRT the 29er, the YW's is a really significant proportion of the price!

So the fact that a builder starts building boats that can be called what ever, outside the constraints of a int class for a substantial amount less, could even be said to be a good thing.

The looser in all this is the Int sailing community.    And until that is re-structured (and that vote failed at WS, in Bermuda, everything else in-fact fades into insignificance) then it will continue to be chronically under-funded and there fore under staffed.   Jaime can only do so much, Kim can only play the cards he has been dealt.   I note with amusement on another string about WS finances.    This is not the first time WS has run out of money in my time there.   One time before they passed the hat around.    I happen to know Kim very well, and being a Danne, he dose not do it that way, (even though I have no doubt he easily could, given the circles he lives in). In his mind, it has to stand on it's own feet!    And I do find it super amusing that at the Council, ex-Exc members grilling the existing Exc over their handling of the problems the ex-Exc made.    Very ironic! LOL

Back to ILCA, I was in PSA last week, for the best part of the day, no shortage of boats going out the door, no shortage of people buying 100 boats at a time, the big issue is production, I think they are just at 50/month at the moment, but they are working to up that level, all the time.     A new set of hull and deck moulds almost weekly at present.  That's massive.     Just as a side note, I also cut my teeth under Ian Bruce in Hymus Boulevard, in Montreal in 1978. they where doing 100+ Lasers a week.   130 French Canadian women worked there, about 25 of us blocks.     PSA has a lot of girls working and the QC of the boats is impressive.     It's the same old story!

Also while there I was read the list of prospective builders, it's a long list.    I knew 10 of them, but some I have never heard of!   Without even asking the question, the issue is who is going to manage this??      What people don't get is that to start a new builder means that a existing builder or someone skilled and motivated to make it happen has to live in a foreign country/factory for 4-6 weeks to bring it on line.    Then they have to go back there 2-3 time in the next 18 months.   It's a huge commitment!

They have to pick who they start with first, and who is going to go there and oversee it.    My guess is they will be lucky to start 2 builders in 2020.   Remember Takao is out of it with the Olympics, so that means Caldecott, and he has 3 months of Laser Worlds in Victoria so he won't want to leave Erina for any length of time, especially given the work-load he is under.     I have seen a lot of Lasers built, but I would be hopelessly under qualified.   (nor do I have the time)    So whom????    It ain't that easy!

At least the ILCA get that, and that is VERY rare for a ICA!!     Most people think that anyone can build a bit of FRP, what a joke that is!     The world is littered with people who thought it was that simple.       

It [ILCA] has some issue to contend with, and I completely get why they and being very choosy as to whom they jump with first.

In Bermuda, Eric kept saying that anyone who for-fills the criteria has to be given a license under FRAND and the reality is that's just impossible!    The inevitability is it's a disaster!

To be in Chris, Takao or Tracy's shoes at present is not a nice place to be!    God help Eric and Clive once a decision is made!

And I believe they are all together, builders, EXC and Tech people in Texas very shortly.   No doubt it will be very high on the agenda.

               jB

 

Oh boy.  Where to start LOL.  Tip my cap for your recognizing Ian Bruce.

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9 hours ago, JulianB said:

The biggest issue with that is 99% (quite literally) of Int class associations are based on a doc stolen from the Star and enshrined by the Laser by the late great(s) Ian Bruce and Ward McKim in the 60's and have not changed since.   The 2 stand out classes that have broken that nexus and entered the 21st century are the Nacra and the 49er/FX who both have effectively fB associations.     The days of border control have long passed

Great point. Worth a whole thread of its own.

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fB is a privately owned company that collects people's personal data, provides it to a third parties and targets its members (spams, literally) with advertising. Like any such companies, it might change hands, might change its policies or conditions and it might go bust as well. It should not be a platform for running any class association. Period.

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LOL funny how fB references always sets off the usual angst but is it a tangent here?  ILCA has a fB site; same as Nacra and 49er.  Not clear to me why the latter two are different and "fB associations."  Not that it really matters. Why all the drama, lamas?  :blink:

Lot of other interesting stuff in that post.

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While I personally hate FB, I think the takeaway should not that the classes are on FB exclusively.  It's that they are based online, with instant communication around the world across borders.  Today it might be FB, tomorrow something else.

I think the point Julian was trying to make is that a hierarchical class structure, with national class associations feeding into a worldwide association, is obsolete.

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7 hours ago, torrid said:

I think the point Julian was trying to make is that a hierarchical class structure, with national class associations feeding into a worldwide association, is obsolete.

There are certainly evident problems in the heirarchy of the Laser, where to me it seems that BritLCA has little idea what EurLCA is up to and EurLCA is feuding with ILCA. 

On the other hand Nacra and 49er seem to me to be small outfits, associated primarily with the Olympic event circuit, with relatively little to worry about outside that. UKLA for instance runs masters series, supports club open events and regional series, all sorts of geographically based stuff. Its hard to see that being done well without regional bodies. 

Usually at this point someone yells about transparency. But as pTerry pointed out, transparency may also mean something you can't see at all. But I do think that ILCA needs shorter lines of communication with its members all the time, not just when they want them to vote the right way. A bit too much on the mycological horticulture for me at the moment.

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13 hours ago, JimC said:

There are certainly evident problems in the heirarchy of the Laser, where to me it seems that BritLCA has little idea what EurLCA is up to and EurLCA is feuding with ILCA. 

I agree with Julian in that social media has disrupted traditional hierarchies. As a consequence of social media, everyone is necessarily more global in their approach.

It is fair to say that there are some officials within the EurILCA who are carrying grudges against ILCA. We don't know the source of the above letter, though we can say with absolute certainty that it does not represent the views of all European Laser sailors.

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22 hours ago, torrid said:

While I personally hate FB, I think the takeaway should not that the classes are on FB exclusively.  It's that they are based online, with instant communication around the world across borders.  Today it might be FB, tomorrow something else.

I think the point Julian was trying to make is that a hierarchical class structure, with national class associations feeding into a worldwide association, is obsolete.

The 49ers and Nacras are run by a pro admin who unlike most class admins is younger than the mountains, and they are far from exclusive anywhere.  Lots of IG and some Twitter, constantly updated websites, and group chats via whatsapp, Skype, and messenger.  

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5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

We don't know the source of the above letter, though we can say with absolute certainty that it does not represent the views of all European Laser sailors. And it doesn't matter.

 

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Sorry I annoyed some people with the reference to fB, and yes I49erCA actually use fB, but they could use what ever they like, any SM will do the job.

The issue is effective communication!    In this day and age waiting a year sometimes to hear  a issue being raised at a AGM is absurd.    You get pent up animosity, you get spin and you get massive levels of dis information that takes years to de-fuse.

WRT the 49er and how it manages issue's, they have a small EXC, a issue arises, if it passes a criteria, it's put out on fB, everyone gets to "quite literally vote"  after a suitable amount of discussion is had, the decision may have to jump a few additional hurdles, WS and CHR but that tends to be a formality, and this can all happen, from start to finish in under 2 months.    Everyone get to air there washing if they so chose, and everyone gets to comment on it!

I don't know the genesis of the ILCA - EurLCA, but I do know the issue's plaguing the I49erCA and the I29erCA !   

 49er's issues are easily overcome, in addition to the fB process we have a open meeting in 8 days time in NZ where all will be laid bare.   Plus the builders talk freely, & it works.   (we also will meet in AKL in 8 days time, we try and do it face to face 2-3 times a year).    There, WRT the 49er/FX is also a very close working relationship between the ICA, CRH and the Builders,   ILCA also have that (except LP).

My point really is, the in this new world, trying to attract new people, we have to adopt new strategies, processes those new people understand, or we become also ran's!!!

If you use fB, OK, it could be iG or any other SM, even your own.

The politics of with-holding information for political gain, has been around for years, at all levels, but if we want effective communication with our almost trivial numbers we have to think outside the box!

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Ian Bruce was the greatest "sailing" industrial designer of the present era, we all owe him huge debts of gratitude.

Ward McKim, had one of those legal brains, which transgressed the law, and actually work in the real world, very rare and very refreshing.

Lastly, all Olympic classes have professional management, Ben dose a amazing job, as dose Eric, as did Louise & Corine, as dose Steve.

 

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As usual, Julian makes some interesting and valid points, but his take on social media doesn't work for all classes. It's easy in the N17/49er world. What is the average age of the sailors? What percentage use SM as an active communication platform? The answers are young and all. Now consider that with a class like the Laser. I bet the answer is more like older and not as many. The reality is that while raw figures of how many people have a social media account and/or use social media suggest it is a good way of working for classes, it tends to be mainly the younger generation that run their lives through social media platforms.

Think of it this way. My 21 year old daughter would organise a party through a closed group on Facebook (about all she uses Facebook for these days). No written invites, no phone calls to invite. Just social media. Forget oldies like me - how many 40 something year olds would organise their party this way? At my age, i know that if I only sent out social media invites it would be a very small party and not just because nobody wants to party with me:D

Another strange phenomena - some time ago I read some research that suggested that online voting for associations (not sailing specific) hasn't seen any real increase in participation compared with pre internet days when voting was either postal or only at AGM's. 

Social media and the internet has its place in class association management and communication, but I believe that there are few classes that can work in the same way that the N17/49ers work because of demographics.

The implication is that the ability to reach quick decisions and to sort issues through SM is a good thing, but in my experience, it is quite often the exact opposite. There are times when speedy action is needed, but there are others where a process that requires time leads to better solutions. The A Class foilers are a great example. People were horrified some years ago when a proposed freeing up of foil rules was very narrowly defeated. many predicted disaster for the class. If we could have used social media/internet voting, I am sure the vote would have been overturned fairly quickly. But, because of the time issues in the constitution, of when votes can take place and the processes before such votes, people had time to try the rules as they were and now, most would agree that by a bit of luck, what most thought of as poorly framed rules have resulted in a foiler far better than expected and now very few want to change the rules. Many now believe if we had freed the rules, we would have probably killed the class.

I don't have the answer to the problems of the ILCA but I suspect that the real situation is only half as bad as people make it out to be while the solutions are 10 times more complex than people would believe.

 

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2 hours ago, SimonN said:

As usual, Julian makes some interesting and valid points, but his take on social media doesn't work for all classes.

Just because you can do things faster with newer platforms doesn't mean it's a good idea. The most important thing is to have a good process for resolving issues, including time to allow bigger issues to be properly understood before changes are made (which I think is the big take–away from the A Class anecdote).

Effective communication should not rely on any single platform, it needs to use a variety of platforms (including email and notices on web sites). Reliance on one to the exclusion of others will not be effective in reaching everyone who needs to be reached. If a group needs to convene quickly to make a decision, there are plenty of video platforms that allow it at low cost or free. Don't discount email for disseminating documents and information in preparation for meetings.

Facebook and Google are, first and foremost, advertising companies with platforms to gather data and deliver advertisements. As a result, fewer people want to use them or engage with them regularly. Newer platforms are coming and will likely tread the same path. So the communication platform must be completely separate from the process, choose whatever best suits each case.

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Your missing the point, its not speed, SM is just convenient for many millions of people. 

When the last time you sat down and wrote a snail mail??????

We are not even communicating here via snail mail or telex, or fax.

And that is all irrelevant!!,

The issue is communicating, and not withholding for political gain!!!    get everyone to buy in, get everyone to have an opinion, and participate!   I even think it's called democracy!

Do it via Morse code if you must!!!!!!!!!!!

 

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4 hours ago, JulianB said:

Your missing the point, its not speed, SM is just convenient for many millions of people. 

When the last time you sat down and wrote a snail mail??????

We are not even communicating here via snail mail or telex, or fax.

And that is all irrelevant!!,

The issue is communicating, and not withholding for political gain!!!    get everyone to buy in, get everyone to have an opinion, and participate!   I even think it's called democracy!

Do it via Morse code if you must!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1018793270_ScreenShot2019-11-21at7_07_30AM.thumb.png.c47c0303e52ae79e090b18d1ed6cc76a.png

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9 hours ago, RobG said:

Just because you can do things faster with newer platforms doesn't mean it's a good idea. The most important thing is to have a good process for resolving issues, including time to allow bigger issues to be properly understood before changes are made (which I think is the big take–away from the A Class anecdote).

Effective communication should not rely on any single platform, it needs to use a variety of platforms (including email and notices on web sites). Reliance on one to the exclusion of others will not be effective in reaching everyone who needs to be reached. If a group needs to convene quickly to make a decision, there are plenty of video platforms that allow it at low cost or free. Don't discount email for disseminating documents and information in preparation for meetings.

Facebook and Google are, first and foremost, advertising companies with platforms to gather data and deliver advertisements. As a result, fewer people want to use them or engage with them regularly. Newer platforms are coming and will likely tread the same path. So the communication platform must be completely separate from the process, choose whatever best suits each case.

I can related to this.  We have several ways to distribute information to our Laser District.  FB, a google web page, (which has it's own google e-mail group for those who apply), the NA ILCA website which has a page for our district.  We send group e-mails to registered class members as well as those who are on the google e-mail group, (many of those are not class members, but we're working on it) and finally we do use 1 snail mail application every year.  We'll mail a post card of the year's schedule to everyone who is a current class member or has been a class member in the district in the last 4 years.  We typically put a cool regatta shot from the previous year on the front to make it an acceptable fridge decoration for most households.  Comes out to about 100 or so mailings.  The class reimburses us for this.  

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9 hours ago, JulianB said:

 

Do it via Morse code if you must!!!!!!!!!!!

 

Or...

Image result for smoke signals images

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On 11/19/2019 at 12:22 AM, JulianB said:

Also while there I was read the list of prospective builders, it's a long list.    I knew 10 of them, but some I have never heard of!   Without even asking the question, the issue is who is going to manage this??      What people don't get is that to start a new builder means that a existing builder or someone skilled and motivated to make it happen has to live in a foreign country/factory for 4-6 weeks to bring it on line.    Then they have to go back there 2-3 time in the next 18 months.   It's a huge commitment!

They have to pick who they start with first, and who is going to go there and oversee it.    My guess is they will be lucky to start 2 builders in 2020.   Remember Takao is out of it with the Olympics, so that means Caldecott, and he has 3 months of Laser Worlds in Victoria so he won't want to leave Erina for any length of time, especially given the work-load he is under.     I have seen a lot of Lasers built, but I would be hopelessly under qualified.   (nor do I have the time)    So whom????    It ain't that easy!

Counterpoint: Speaking as the Owner/Operator of one of the companies on that list, do you think that scenario is fully valid if the following conditions apply:


1. The company vyying to be a builder will be utilizing technicians and equipment (the non proprietary bits) that have already produced the ILCA dinghy successfully thousands of times over.

-We stood up Fulcrum very shortly after LPNA shuttered the plant on High Point road. What pieces of Humpty Dumpty that we don't already have, we know the location of.

2. Three veteran production managers from that very same production line are frequent production consultants to that company.

3. That company is already producing racing dinghies of a similar size and cost bracket on a similar production line- into which that set of tools could be integrated.

4. There actually isn't much demand for the product in the first place as evidence by the sales record over the last ten years, so that builder would likely be required hundreds, not thousands of units.

 

My point is that while I think your concerns are valid I suspect they are not universal. Bankruptcies happen but people, knowledge and gear rarely stray far from home.

DRC

 

Ps. To make this abundantly clear, I am NOT claiming to have molds.

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Sounds like the class was doing quite well in NA in the late ‘90s and 2000. What changed in 2001? Wasn’t there a big change in leadership? Where is Sherlock Holmes?

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9 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

Counterpoint: Speaking as the Owner/Operator of one of the companies on that list, do you think that scenario is fully valid if the following conditions apply:


1. The company vyying to be a builder will be utilizing technicians and equipment (the non proprietary bits) that have already produced the ILCA dinghy successfully thousands of times over.

-We stood up Fulcrum very shortly after LPNA shuttered the plant on High Point road. What pieces of Humpty Dumpty that we don't already have, we know the location of.

2. Three veteran production managers from that very same production line are frequent production consultants to that company.

3. That company is already producing racing dinghies of a similar size and cost bracket on a similar production line- into which that set of tools could be integrated.

4. There actually isn't much demand for the product in the first place as evidence by the sales record over the last ten years, so that builder would likely be required hundreds, not thousands of units.

 

My point is that while I think your concerns are valid I suspect they are not universal. Bankruptcies happen but people, knowledge and gear rarely stray far from home.

DRC

 

Ps. To make this abundantly clear, I am NOT claiming to have molds.

Having purchased a UFO from you folks and knowing the quality of the build and after sale support - I think it would be a fantastic thing if Fulcrum was building and selling Lasers.  Or ILCAs or whatever they eventually need to be called.  Hopefully ILCA helps you folks get through the process and you don't end up needing lawyers on staff to enter the marketplace.  You folks would be the best and only good thing to come out of this mess!

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43 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Sounds like the class was doing quite well in NA in the late ‘90s and 2000. What changed in 2001? Wasn’t there a big change in leadership? Where is Sherlock Holmes?

IDK.  I stepped away from the class between '95 and 2004.  I bet Fred could ad to this.

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55 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

DK.  I stepped away from the class between '95 and 2004.  I bet Fred could ad to this.

I believe he has many times. But I don’t remember ever reading a response that explains why the membership declined after that change of leadership. Seems to me that would be a pivotal point in the NA class history- a clear line between growth and decline. Might be some valuable lessons to learn from unraveling that history.......

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1 hour ago, Old Yeller said:

I believe he has many times. But I don’t remember ever reading a response that explains why the membership declined after that change of leadership. Seems to me that would be a pivotal point in the NA class history- a clear line between growth and decline. Might be some valuable lessons to learn from unraveling that history.......

In many cases class membership is a reflection of what went on the previous few years. Sail racing in general is in a decline. Currently the NA Class has great leadership both paid and volunteer.

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5 minutes ago, VWAP said:

In many cases class membership is a reflection of what went on the previous few years. 

Certainly possible. But we aren’t talking about “many cases”. We’re talking about the NA laser class 2000-2001. Care to address that specific case?

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After I hit the button re Morse Code, I did think of smoke signals, and I am really glad some brought that up.

As I live in Australia, the Aboriginals had a very elaborate communication system that even pre-dates the smoke signals.

Of-course time was not a factor in those days, where as today with email & SM you need to be able to resolve and dis-spell issues with the same speed that others try and inflame and propagate dis-information (in most cases) and if you don't use the tools they are using then you are fighting with one or two hands tied behind your back.

It's just stupid! 

 

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On 11/19/2019 at 12:22 AM, JulianB said:

The ILCA fly the tech officer around the world a few times a year, just re compliance, and some builders have been found wanting, I understand the last fiasco had to do with more women sailing the boats (has to be a good thing) and those boats being towed at high speed behind coach boats (or that was the excuse anyway) so a MNA (who shall remain nameless)  pursued a builder (who shall also remain nameless) to stop the problems happening.   

Quite a few ”nameless” actors in the situation above. You wouldn’t be  withholding information for political gain would you? That part about the women being towed at high speed behind coach boats is hilarious! 

 

On 11/19/2019 at 12:22 AM, JulianB said:

If you had a more effective "fB" association, that issue would have been sorted out and a agreement found long before a Tech Officer had to do a Sherlock Holmes!

All joking aside, I would love to hear how you think that situation could have been resolved “if you had a more effective “FB” association”.  Seriously, I would welcome a more efficient class structure that makes wise use of modern communication methods, if that would indeed help.

BTW- How are your CRigs coming along?

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I recall complaints about hulls developing cracks that were blamed on "high speed towing", though in the case described to me, there was definite skepticism that such activity had taken place.

 Are we to deduce that changes to the build process were made in response to customer complaints, and that this has been used by ILCA to wrest control?

 Hmm... 

Cheers,

               W.

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17 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

I recall complaints about hulls developing cracks that were blamed on "high speed towing", though in the case described to me, there was definite skepticism that such activity had taken place.

 Are we to deduce that changes to the build process were made in response to customer complaints, and that this has been used by ILCA to wrest control?

 Hmm... 

Cheers,

               W.

High speed towing causing hull cracks? Either they were travelling excess of Warp speed or towing without a trailer...

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2 hours ago, JulianB said:

As I live in Australia, the Aboriginals had a very elaborate communication system that even pre-dates the smoke signals

We all saw Crocodile Dundee.

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I think there is more than enough "noise on the graph" to be able to give the "towing girls at hi speed" more than a rudimentary level of credence, you even have Warburton giving it a bit of credibility!     I have been sailing Lasers, but nothing like my brother, and I don't frequent that social group, mostly because I am a skiffie!   A social outcasts, so to speak!!!!

But I do believe that it's a very European phenomenon, with a bit of Nth America thrown in there.      In the Antipodes's and Asian arena's it never reared it's ugly head, again, WGW recalls cracks, and to the best of my limited understanding it just did not happen down-under or Asia.

But once the Tech Office (Clive) did his Sherlock Holmes,  and reported back, I understand that the powers to be where not "un-sympathetic" !

Who would be anti more women, and if coaches need to tow them at hi speed, so be it, solve the problem!

I don't know how the ILCA system works, but knowing, in-particular, Takao for a very long time,  having spent some time with Tracy and Clive and being impressed and of-course Chris (plus I did have the pleasure of meeting Bill & Fazard & Bruce more than once) , I have little doubt they (Takao, Chris, Clive and Tracy) have looked at the issue "holistically" and rather than apply a "stop gap" measure, (which was what I am lead to believe was done) so are looking at a longer term and more complete solution.

If it was me, I would generate 2-3-4 boats in 2-3 areas (continents) and put them in the hands of WW (Weekend Warriors) and if it works then implement a change. 

So if via a more timely method of communication, be that smoke signals, Morse code or even SM, the issue had been exposed to the wider world body, rather than being kept in house, given the reaction from ILCA,  that would appear to be happening now, you may have just seen a solution, suggested, tested and implemented many years back rather than being some of the angst that is inflicting the class now!   

You simply can't not stop evolution!!!!!!!!!!   Those that try always end in tears (or been hung drawn and quartered).   In this case it's the coaches evolving, it's not even the sailors, or technology, but to sit on your hands and do nothing, is doomed!

My father used to stay, "you add another brick to the dam, all that is going to happen is the dam gets high, and when it inevitably breaks, the result will be even more catastrophic! "

 

 

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The scene in the cave, eating a bat (which needed more garlic and the hostages thinking they were DINNER) was perfect!!!!!

 

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42 minutes ago, JulianB said:

You simply can't not stop evolution!!!!!!!!!!   Those that try always end in tears (or been hung drawn and quartered).   In this case it's the coaches evolving, it's not even the sailors, or technology, but to sit on your hands and do nothing, is doomed!

Enough with the straw man arguments. Who’s trying to stop evolution? Who is opposed to women being towed at high speeds? (there’s a sentence I never thought that I would write) The coaches are evolving.....? By towing the girls fast? This is the most entertaining exchange I’ve had in months! Are you drunk? Modern communication methods won’t help much if you can’t take the time to formulate a coherent sentence. One last question, how many exclamation marks can you use before you have a heart attack? Easy on the sauce sailor:) 

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regarding the cracks/towing, Chris made specific reference to it in the last paragraph here:
chrisc.thumb.jpg.61b03616993896e99ebbad57561b104e.jpg

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Pretty arrogant tone for a boat builder representative, I must say. Playing the divisive nationality card.. union line breaker.. bugger off..

There you go, social media. Type first, think later :lol:

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I think the cracks being discussed can be seen on the leading edge of the center board trunk when you flip a boat over.  They look like stress cracks and they spider out on both sides of the hull around the trunk.  I've NEVER taken a high speed tow for this reason.  When you have your bow bouncing up and down, (and the mast doing the same in the step) while being towed across choppy water at 15+ knots how can that NOT have an affect on the hull.  After all they are pretty thin.

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2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

I think the cracks being discussed can be seen on the leading edge of the center board trunk when you flip a boat over.  They look like stress cracks and they spider out on both sides of the hull around the trunk.  I've NEVER taken a high speed tow for this reason.  When you have your bow bouncing up and down, (and the mast doing the same in the step) while being towed across choppy water at 15+ knots how can that NOT have an affect on the hull.  After all they are pretty thin.

This.

Hey @JMP - I might be wrong about this but I don't think those comments from Chris were public.  Rather they were private to his facebook friend group only.  Maybe not so cool to repost them into a public forum if so.  I ain't a PSA fan but still.... if they were private maybe think about deleting those posts.  Just one opinion...

 

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2 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The solution to high-speed towing problems is really quite simple. 
all Laser competitions at every level should be conducted such that when the competitor gets on the boat at the shore no outside help other than from the organizing authority may be excepted without disqualification.

This includes food,  beverage, coaching, and any contact with any individual other than competitors and the race committee. 

That's valid but may make it challenging to put a rib fleet together that meets current expectations of safety cover.

Cheers,

               W.

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1 hour ago, WGWarburton said:

That's valid but may make it challenging to put a rib fleet together that meets current expectations of safety cover.

Cheers,

               W.

If an O.A. hosting an event is dependent on visiting coaches to lend safety boat support then they should not be hosting the event.

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56 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

If an O.A. hosting an event is dependent on visiting coaches to lend safety boat support then they should not be hosting the event.

 That is, as I said, a reasonable stance.  However, the list of venues that can host a big Laser event these days is already quite short.  If they are also going to need to keep a couple of dozen ribs on hand then it may get even shorter. 

 Still, let's say you can manage that without making the event overly pricey. Now all you have to do is find crews for them. Preferably experienced safety boat crews with VHF licenses, first aid training, a vague idea how a regatta is run and time available when the racing needs to run.

 Volunteers, please form an orderly queue. 

Cheers,

               W.

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3 hours ago, Wess said:

This.

Hey @JMP - I might be wrong about this but I don't think those comments from Chris were public.  Rather they were private to his facebook friend group only.  Maybe not so cool to repost them into a public forum if so.  I ain't a PSA fan but still.... if they were private maybe think about deleting those posts.  Just one opinion...

 

That was a public post in response to Lutz, I'm not a fB friend of Chris's

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35 minutes ago, torrid said:

I wince anytime I'm at a regatta and they want to start a Laser conga line.

You don't know what you're missing.  Ha, cha, cha, cha, cha, cha!

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When I was young I was eager to tow fast female sailors. But now with a family those days are behind me. One could say that I have evolved.

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18 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

You don't know what you're missing.  Ha, cha, cha, cha, cha, cha!

That's your hull flexing.

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So let me get this straight. People are complaining they get hairline cracks in the hull of their Laser after they tow the boat through rough water at high speeds. How about "go fuck yourself - strong message to follow" as a rational response. 

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9 minutes ago, bill4 said:

How about "go fuck yourself - strong message to follow" as a rational response. 

Its not a rational response because both manufacturer and CA need to deal with people as they are, not as they'd like them to be. If you tell your customers "If you don't like it **** off" then some at least probably will. 

I imagine over the life of the Laser class there have been many little constructional tweaks to enable the boats to better stand up to the abuses they are put through. I imagine @Steve Clark could tell us if he hasn't signed anything prohibiting him from doing so.

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16 minutes ago, bill4 said:

So let me get this straight. People are complaining they get hairline cracks in the hull of their Laser after they tow the boat through rough water at high speeds. How about "go fuck yourself - strong message to follow" as a rational response. 

While there is a responsible way to take a tow I've seen plenty of tow situations I would never be a part of.  Everything has limitations.  Those who have had the "aggressive" tow deals are just asking for issues IMO.

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43 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Why do women need to be towed more, or at higher speed?  

Good question! Glad someone asked!

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Why do women need to be towed more, or at higher speed?  

Two possibilities immediately come to mind:

firstly that the radials are appreciably slower and take a fair bit longer to get out to the course and back

secondly that the girls are more polite and less likely to yell "OI, back off a bit". 

No doubt a bit of imagination would come up with a number of others.

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What about, the girls are lighter so the load on the tow boat is less and thus the boat just goes faster?

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50 minutes ago, JimC said:

Two possibilities immediately come to mind:

firstly that the radials are appreciably slower and take a fair bit longer to get out to the course and back

secondly that the girls are more polite and less likely to yell "OI, back off a bit". 

No doubt a bit of imagination would come up with a number of others.

I’ve used my imagination and struggle to come with ideas that aren’t misogynistic. Radials are not that much slower and besides plenty men and boys sail them too. And if the course is too far away to sail to/from I’d question whether we’ve lost sight of making the sport fun and accessible in the quest for perfection. 

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29 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I’ve used my imagination and struggle to come with ideas that aren’t misogynistic.

I agree it makes absolutely no sense. That is why I found it hilarious to begin with. Is there a highly evolved Laser coach out there who can explain this? 

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3 hours ago, JimC said:

Its not a rational response because both manufacturer and CA need to deal with people as they are, not as they'd like them to be. If you tell your customers "If you don't like it **** off" then some at least probably will. 

I imagine over the life of the Laser class there have been many little constructional tweaks to enable the boats to better stand up to the abuses they are put through. I imagine @Steve Clark could tell us if he hasn't signed anything prohibiting him from doing so.

Fair enough. But many manufactured products have precautionary warnings. I think a notice that says "do not tow your Laser above a speed 5 knots or damages may occur" would be in order. Are people really that stupid? Strike that - of course they are. But there is some culpability on the buyer to not be an idiot. 

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OK, now enter the world of reality.

Coaches are in direct contact with the MNA and the Sailors just about every day, so they have direct and instantaneous communication daily with the decision makers, and are "professionals" so they can't even be wrong!

Also the builders/retailers are also in direct and instantaneous communication almost as often with the Coaches and Sailors and often with the MNA's.    And they are by definition professionals!

Then you have NCA/ICA's who may talk directly with the Sailors and Coaches maybe once a year and want to use 60 year association models, archaic communications methods,  and pass rules that are un-police-able who wish to remain creditable.       And you can't see a flaw in that logic!!!!!!!!! 

It's not a question of who is right or wrong, it's a question of reality, so a coach has to pick up his daughter from a hockey match, and one for his/her charges are 1/2hr from base, you think he is going to tow that boat home at 5knts????

The reality is it's going to happen, and you can stick you hands in your pockets, or you can be like the MNA and Builder and try to solve the problem.    And I don't know if it worked!

The only thing they did wrong is not tell the other's in the class that you where building non compliant boats.     If you had aired the problem sooner and there was general consensus via a more viable communication process, then EVERYONE would have been better off.

BTW, and I have never seen on example of this because I have never looked!    This has nothing to do with the mast and center-case cracks,  That was years ago,  this is now, current, real and was, as I understand it, all aft of the cockpit!

It's going to happen, precautionary warnings, passing rules won't mean a iota!    If the idea is to reduce the cost of the sport, increase longevity, you need to solve problems as and when they occur!    And you need to do it in a timely manner!

                        jB

 

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19 minutes ago, JulianB said:

The only thing they did wrong is not tell the other's in the class that you where building non compliant boats.     If you had aired the problem sooner and there was general consensus via a more viable communication process, then EVERYONE would have been better off.

Wow! “The only thing they did wrong was not tell.......building non compliant boats.” They simply had no way to communicate the situation to anyone! 

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4 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

The NA Class has never again approached a similar level of success but that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t appreciate those who have tried. 
If you think you can do better than our current officers, volunteer or apply for one of the paid positions. 

Oh please Guv! I don’t think I ever mentioned current leadership or suggested that I don’t appreciate their efforts. I suggested that as a pivotal point in the class, and a clear line between growth and decline, it might yield some valuable lessons to review that history. I made these remarks in response to comments about  the need for more modern class structures and modern communication methods. I was simply pointing to the past and saying, here was growth and then it stopped, what happened.....

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6 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

all I ever did was prove one guy who will abandon his life, immerse himself in the task, and add a couple hundred grand of his own money can probably cause Laser sailing to boom 

That Quote above is the difference. If I can call myself a Laser sailor it is because of people like you who did what you described above. Particularly  a special lady we both know who gave all she had so youth like me could get to the next regatta. 

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4 hours ago, Jethrow said:

What about, the girls are lighter so the load on the tow boat is less and thus the boat just goes faster?

what about it's dumb to assume it's just girls that get towed at mach 2 and we should just leave it at that

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On 11/22/2019 at 8:59 AM, Old Yeller said:

We’re talking about the NA laser class 2000-2001. Care to address that specific case?

(...some middle of the night ramblings...)

2001?

  • Wikipedia was launched in 2001.
  • Bush took over from Clinton.
  • September 11.
  • Iraq.
  • Internet / Social media, shifted everyone's focus in several ways. (Facebook didn't start until 2004), has changed shopping.
  • Macroeconomic factors (employment, hours worked, real disposable income) stayed much the same.
  • US participation in other sports saw normal overall growth, decline in basketball, rise in soccer.

I mentioned the above because external factors / the macro environment probably has a lot to do with social behavior, including sailing Lasers.

  • There was a shift in focus, a lot of 'high performance training programs' were established after the 2000 Olympics.
  • World Sailing's championships became established.
  • Promotion of Lasers in the US appears to have slowed. 
  • Umpires and coaches... our game moved away from self management.
  • Overall sailing participation has remains around 3 to 4 million, is fairly stable.
  • Number of Laser dealerships have declined.

Be interesting to compare US with Canada, Australia, UK, China, France, Germany etc. and look at differences.

---

My observation is that there is no single cause, rather several factors. Because of this, in my view there won't be a single solution, rather several.

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4 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

(...some middle of the night ramblings...)

2001?

  • Wikipedia was launched in 2001.
  • Bush took over from Clinton.
  • September 11.
  • Iraq.
  • Internet / Social media, shifted everyone's focus in several ways. (Facebook didn't start until 2004), has changed shopping.
  • Macroeconomic factors (employment, hours worked, real disposable income) stayed much the same.
  • US participation in other sports saw normal overall growth, decline in basketball, rise in soccer.

I mentioned the above because external factors / the macro environment probably has a lot to do with social behavior, including sailing Lasers.

  • There was a shift in focus, a lot of 'high performance training programs' were established after the 2000 Olympics.
  • World Sailing's championships became established.
  • Promotion of Lasers in the US appears to have slowed. 
  • Umpires and coaches... our game moved away from self management.
  • Overall sailing participation has remains around 3 to 4 million, is fairly stable.
  • Number of Laser dealerships have declined.

Be interesting to compare US with Canada, Australia, UK, China, France, Germany etc. and look at differences.

---

My observation is that there is no single cause, rather several factors. Because of this, in my view there won't be a single solution, rather several.

This years North Americans around 140 boats total

2002 North Americans around 156 boats total

Not much of a decline compared to sail racing in general 

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I don't think  Kim Anderson's letter to EurILCA (post 4852) is a big (or small) surprise, and I thank Tillerman for posting it. 

I do hope that EurILCA will accept the new state of affairs in our class...

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3 hours ago, torrid said:

I'd still say grass-roots sailing is WAY down.

Would you consider grass roots sailing as club level?

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5 hours ago, torrid said:

I'd still say grass-roots sailing is WAY down.

not everywhere

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