Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

Yeah, but you can say of any class "at least some XXX sailors on the internet seem to be more intent on attacking the YYY than trying to do what is best..." That's human nature for you. 
I must admit I'm personally not an especial fan of sailing the Aero myself. It just didn't give me a buzz. Dunno why not since on paper it seems to tick most of my personal boxes. I suppose I probably prefer it to a Laser, but I doubt either would inspire me to get out of a warm bed on a cold winter's day.

Of course cheap 20 year old boats will come with time. The lack of them didn't stop the phenomenal growth of the Laser! 

Yes, it is human nature for some Aero sailors to kick Lasers - but it's human nature for me to kick back at them.  :-)

What worries me regarding the cheap old boats is that times have changed and new classes don't seem to be able to throw as many old boats out as the Laser did. As you say, the Laser grew phenomenally, at something like 6-8,000 per year in its early years. There are many tens of thousands of boats still out there. I think ILCA believes that there are 50,000 Lasers out there still racing, if my memory of a recent address from a member of the ILCA committee is correct.

The Aero's growth, while excellent in this day and age, is far slower at about 400 boats per year. There's little reason to think that the Aero, nice boat as it is, will ever sell in the same numbers as the Laser and therefore there will never be as many old, cheap boats out there.

On the other hand, dinghy sailing did pretty well in the days when the Finn and OK were pretty much the only things close to universal singlehanders, so the sport may not suffer too much if the Laser gains a rival that damages its pre-eminent position. 

 

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19 hours ago, Steve Clark said:

If the ILCA dinghy is going to be built by multiple builders, they should anticipate needing engaging in measurement about like the Finn class. 

Why, though, should managing 8 or 12 builders for consistency require a different regime to managing 4? Yes there are a lot more factory visits, but it does seem to me that a condition that everyone's moulds come off the same plug isn't obviously unfair.

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If Aeros are selling ~400 a year and Lasers ~2000 a year, to me that it pretty clear that the Laser is losing market share.

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On 4/12/2019 at 10:26 AM, Gouvernail said:

Dang... looks like Steve and I share the same view of reality. The NA market for Lasers has shrunk to “selling one boat per million people” is a pie in the sky target.

three hundred boats ?

fewer than one boat per day?

condidering all the necessary hoops through which a distributor has to leap, I really don’t see how anybody could come to the conclusion “I am going to invest a huge wad of cash in that  business.”

the numbers look horrible 

 

and when you add in ongoing lawsuits and picky sailors who want that distributor to give away all sorts of free stuff.... I am running screaming from the scene.

i think I will repair powerboats and use the proceeds to get a J-80 for local and an AERO fir the highway. And nurse my old Laser along for occasional masters events

 

 

You could always get together with Mr. Clark to build that boat you were dreaming of in 2012 for the US market.

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No builder wants to be perceived as building the shit boat.  So even if complying with the Construction Manual, try to subtly out do the others in some detail or other.  Whether it is choice of colors, more detailed finishing, or making their hulls a little shinier or claiming their rake is in the most desirable range, there is still competition to be building the best Laser. All competitive boat builders push the limits of what is legal just enough to be better and not get caught.  Whether this is by specifying different materials, or spending additional labor hours, or interpreting class rules in a unforeseen way, all try to differentiate their boat in a way that makes the sailor feel he is not disadvantaged.  The Laser class and Laser builders were generally very successful at maintaining this belief of parity.  Laser Performance’s failures to supply product to the American market has severely undermined this confidence in parity between builder.

I know about a dozen ways to make a Construction Manual compliant Laser “ better.”  I did none of these because it was contrar6 whole point. The goal was not to build the  best boat we could, it was to build boats that were just as shitty as everyone else’s.  The core proposition of the Laser is that boats from different builders were virtually indistinguishable form each other.  Like Wonderbread, Coke- cola, Oreo Cookies and other products that are identical but are built in different plants.  

PSA boats were always reputed to be “better” but because their volume was low, and they couldn’t sell outside of Oz\Kiwi, we never took them as a real threat.  And I never bothered to find out if this was just Aussie bullshit or if they were actually doing something that might have an effect.  The more builders you have competing for the same business, assuming territorial protections are removed, the more extreme this optimization will get.  Olympic classes which permit multiple builders always reduce to one preferred vendor, and everyone else gets kicked to the curb.  There is no reason to expect that a FRAND Laser Class will be any different.

There are modern, almost automated QC procedures, which is what measurement really is, that could be utilized to check configuration and shape with a greater degree of accuracy than the traditional string, ruler and pieces of aluminum process. Which is the same way they built pyramids ( absent the aluminum of course) but this will not control subtleties in construction and assembly .

 For example: squeezing the laminate in the topsides a bit harder to assure the bottom is slightly thicker\stiffer and the weight is lower and further aft)   This is a claim that could be made, would be impossible to prove was in violation of the Construction Manual, and would cause the serious competitor to prefer that builders boats.  

PSE one promoted their use of “ high loft chopped fiber mat” as a distinguishing detail that made their boats better suffer and better. Probably in response to PSA’s assertion that their Lasers were stiffer. I still have no idea what “high loft mat” is and how it makes a rats ass of difference. When asked about it, I said, “ oh, we all use that” in part to stifle the speculation but also to maintain the fiction that we are all building the same Boat the same way and there is no reason to go out of your way to import a boat from another builder.  

The inspections by ILCA did much  to assure the sailors that the boats fit the fundamental principle: that the boats are close enough in shape and construction to have no decernable effect on the out come of the races. Yet there still was constant differentiation between builders and products and actual cheating.  The Laser consortium was barely able to keep it under control when there were 4 builders, double that number and open the world market, and I predict chaos.

 Littlefinger famously said,” Chaos is opportunity.”  In this case that may not be a good thing for the continuation of Laser sailing as you have known it.  Cynics will claim that the horse is already out of the barn and drinking at the bar.

SHC

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14 hours ago, Curious said:

The Aero and Laser could probably work in harmony, and that would be a lot better for the sport than if the Laser class was to collapse or shrink. Sadly the Aeros, or at least some Aero sailors on the internet, seem to be more intent on attacking the Laser than trying to do what is best for the sport.

i agree 100%

4 hours ago, torrid said:

If Aeros are selling ~400 a year and Lasers ~2000 a year, to me that it pretty clear that the Laser is losing market share.

who cares about laser or aero gaining or losing market share? who gives a shit? I want to see them both do well. there's plenty of space for everyone and i hate hearing sailors wish that the laser would just die. we should be supporting all classes if it gets people on the water and enjoying the sport. ffs

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If it’s such a tough gig making money from building selling notionally identical lasers at some multiple of 1000 a year, then heaven help anyone building any other production or custom sailboat! 

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2 hours ago, dgmckim said:

who cares about laser or aero gaining or losing market share? who gives a shit? I want to see them both do well. there's plenty of space for everyone and i hate hearing sailors wish that the laser would just die. we should be supporting all classes if it gets people on the water and enjoying the sport. ffs

Dude, I'm a Laser sailor.  I was trying to point out the potential causes and impact of all the class drama.

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1 hour ago, Daniel Holman said:

If it’s such a tough gig making money from building selling notionally identical lasers at some multiple of 1000 a year, then heaven help anyone building any other production or custom sailboat! 

It can't be that bad; there's a rumour that the designer of the D-Zero has bought two Porsches and a townhouse in Kensington on the royalties.

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28 minutes ago, Curious said:

It can't be that bad; there's a rumour that the designer of the D-Zero has bought two Porsches and a townhouse in Kensington on the royalties.

Ha ha ha ha ha

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Appart from all the reasons Steve has told us, building boats in hand laid vynel and glass is dying out. There are more reasons than jus shrinking boat sales. It has a bad reputation for fire safety and for fumes. Local governments and neighbours are reluctant to allow smelly industries near homes. Land lords and insurance companies also do not like the risk, and if they accept it they charge accordingly high rates.  Small builders are finding it hard to get premises. Lots of small builders are going out of buisness. 

Most modern boats are built with infusuion vynel or even epoxy, because there are less fumes and hence less fire risk. The Laser building manual apparently does not allow this. 

If the market is not big enough to sustain one big Laser builder in the US, it is certainly not likely to sustain several smaller ones paying big money just for premises.

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3 hours ago, torrid said:

Dude, I'm a Laser sailor.  I was trying to point out the potential causes and impact of all the class drama.

Sorry I was just venting a little 

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4 hours ago, Phil S said:

Appart from all the reasons Steve has told us, building boats in hand laid vynel and glass is dying out. There are more reasons than jus shrinking boat sales. It has a bad reputation for fire safety and for fumes. Local governments and neighbours are reluctant to allow smelly industries near homes. Land lords and insurance companies also do not like the risk, and if they accept it they charge accordingly high rates.  Small builders are finding it hard to get premises. Lots of small builders are going out of buisness. 

Most modern boats are built with infusuion vynel or even epoxy, because there are less fumes and hence less fire risk. The Laser building manual apparently does not allow this. 

If the market is not big enough to sustain one big Laser builder in the US, it is certainly not likely to sustain several smaller ones paying big money just for premises.

it was more about the long term effects of styrene not the fire risk

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On 4/13/2019 at 2:31 PM, Curious said:

But if I was going to spend almost $14k for an Aero instead of half that or less for a competitive Laser and speed and modern design were what I was after, I'd certainly find the extra $2k for the Waszp.

I agree with your sentiment, but AUD16k is a bit light for a WASZP. At current exchange rates, you likely won't get much change out of AUD20k after taxes and duties.

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17 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Like Alcort,  Varalay, Chrysler, Magregor, Pearson, plastrend, Philip, SailMFG, Prindle, Clark, Tillotson Pearson, Columbia, S-2, Southcoast, Gulfcoast, Merit, Olson, Express, Douglass / MCLeod , Glastron, 

screw it!! Here is a link to a partial list of  sailboat builders defunct and still in business. 

If you’re geared up (debt) for, say 2500 boats, you might lose s lot at 2000. And leisure sports are incredibly cyclical. 

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16 hours ago, Curious said:

It can't be that bad; there's a rumour that the designer of the D-Zero has bought two Porsches and a townhouse in Kensington on the royalties.

Some of this new robber baron class have premium cable tv service and probably flat screen tv too.

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I sure wish ILCA would be a bit more open about what they are trying to accomplish and how they see it playing out... why they think they can get there. 

Last time they risked pissing off non-member Laser sailors but had the support of members because their actions benefitted members (and even non-member Laser sailors) if anyone bothered to go in with an open mind and understand what was what. 

Here their actions seems to make no sense for anyone. Steve’s comments both re EU members and factors impacting builders (LPE and or future) are really telling and further cast doubt on the path ILCA has taken.

Come on ILCA. I can understand that a builder has to defend their IP and be able to make a profit - and they give me a boat for my money - so I have some (small) sympathy for them but I really WANT to support the class and the volunteers in it. Please be a bit more open and describe how the path you are on will benefit most members or even non member Laser sailors. Please tell me it’s more than a Hail Mary just retain the Olympic slot and damn everything and everyone else. I don't want to hear speculation from spectators, I want to hear that from the class leaders (who I and I think most sailors rightly have tons of respect for). Please!

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1 hour ago, Dex Sawash said:

Some of this new robber baron class have premium cable tv service and probably flat screen tv too.

Too busy instructing stockbrokers and oppressing peasants in their fiefdom for all that I reckon. 

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8 hours ago, RobG said:

I agree with your sentiment, but AUD16k is a bit light for a WASZP. At current exchange rates, you likely won't get much change out of AUD20k after taxes and duties.

I was using Captain Ahab's figures.  Thanks for giving the correct information.

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4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Edited to stop before accepting your apples to oranges comparison

A $14k AERO would be brand new with top and bottom covers, padded spar cover bags, padded Blade cover bags, dolly, nine rig and  Sail, seven rig and sail, five rig and sail, and would come with a new best friend at the dealership who just made the sale of his life 

the similar Laser, Radial, 4.7  set up with all the go fast rigging, composite top section, dolly, covers, carbon tiller, hiking pants ( no need on an AERO),  upgraded lines, and a new best friend in Australia who bought it all and shipped it to you my guy cost $20,000

if we still had Laser dealers in the USA that package would cost about the same as the AERO package.

In either case, the purchase wouid make no sense as a person is only the right size for one rig. 

JMP quoted Australian prices. There the $13,395 (+about $450 delivery) Aero 5 or 7 comes only with one sail, no carbon tiller, spar bag or best friend, and the Laser does not require importing. 

Sure, that comparison doesn't apply to you, but your comment that "a person is only the right size for one rig" doesn't apply to me either; many people in the UK and Australia use two different rigs.

If you're going to add the cost of hiking pants to a Laser then you may want to add the cost of heavy duty shorts to the Aero (the non slip seems aggressive), and then many people you will have to add much greater travel expenses if they want to get regular fleet racing.

By the way, has anyone got details of what a PSA or PSJ Laser would actually cost in the USA? Converting to $USD and taking off the 10% GST it looks as thought the Australian alloy mast+turbo package would retail at US $7200. West Coast sells them for $7890. I have no idea what the wholesale price, import costs and freight would be but surely it would not be $13000 USD.

 

 

 

 

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

I was using Captain Ahab's figures.  Thanks for giving the correct information.

Captain Ahab's numbers are a bit kind. He only buys dinghies by the container when they cost over $10k. The Capt can get you really good 2 for 1 deals on Brazillian Laser Hair removal... 

http://www.nbsailsports.com.au/store/product-list.php?pg1-cid292.html

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10 hours ago, RobG said:

I agree with your sentiment, but AUD16k is a bit light for a WASZP. At current exchange rates, you likely won't get much change out of AUD20k after taxes and duties.

WASZP are currently selling for $16,850 delivered in Australia including taxes and duties, just to dispell that comment. This is off the official manufacturer website. 

Screenshot (145).png

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29 minutes ago, CaptainAhab said:

Captain Ahab's numbers are a bit kind. He only buys dinghies by the container when they cost over $10k. The Capt can get you really good 2 for 1 deals on Brazillian Laser Hair removal... 

http://www.nbsailsports.com.au/store/product-list.php?pg1-cid292.html

Fair enough, but that was a limited deal for order in "early July", and if I recall correctly the ad's been up for so long it means last July. For comparison purposes, perhaps normal retail is the best measure. That's $18,382.72 versus a standard Laser turbo+carbon topmast for $13434, both with trolley and covers. Yes, you can spend more on the Laser but you can also spend more on the Waszp, like the $880 for pimping.
 

The Waszp is a good deal, no doubt about it, which is one reason I said many people may prefer one to an Aero. For foiling, I think I prefer boards to boats so I'm not in the market.

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13 minutes ago, ASA said:

WASZP are currently selling for $16,850 delivered in Australia including taxes and duties, just to dispell that comment. This is off the official manufacturer website. 

Screenshot (145).png

If the special price is $17200 and that saves $2000 on "standard" orders, doesn't that mean the normal walk-in walk-out retail price is about $20,000 like Rob said?  For the purposes of comparison, do people normally pay full retail on new Lasers? 

 

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It all depends on your your perspective of a "good deal". The prices of PSA Laser's have crept up quickly in the last 5 years. Its not that long ago when you could buy one for $9000. I realise that most everyone makes fun of or dismisses the C2Byte. But for arguements sake it is the easiest example of PSA's Laser price gouging.

$8990 for a C2Byte with trolley and cover. These are built in the same factory in AU. Sold by the same company.

Obviously, the C2 is a better boat in all regards. The construction, fittings, rig and sail are twice as good as the Laser.  

https://www.psasailing.com.au/shop/boats/byte-boats/byte-cii-complete/

The Laser sailors have been getting bent over in AU for along time by PSA. 

You guys also have to stop bringing up exchange rates. You do not understand how, when, and why they affect the AU markets. It wasn't that long ago that the AU dollar was worth the same as the US dollar. Very few Yanks are aware of it.

I'm a US citizen with permanent residency in AU. Been living here for the last 10 years. I've been loving & hating Lasers for 30 years.  

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Getting back to the current reality show of LP, PSA, ILCA(This has been one of the best distractions from the Trump reality show).

I think one of the most interesting bits of news that was just released is the construction updates that PSA unilaterally made, then were forcefully pushed by ILCA on to the other builders. Big question is how long have the changes been in place. The foam vs Cubitaners could be a substantial change. If the foam is bonded into the bow it could change the stiffness. Likewise extra glass here and there. I've always wondered how they updated the mast tube bonding.  

I think one of the Aussies mentioned they've always foamed the Lasers here. I've never bothered to look.

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One, I'm not a Yank. Two, I'm very aware of the Australian dollar exchange rate. Three, having tried the Byte CII, I didn't find it a better boat and I know others who have tried them and prefer the Laser. Four, I'm not ignoring the high cost of Lasers. Five, they've had foam in Australian Lasers since at least the 50,000s, I think. I haven't actually heard of Cubitainers in any Aussie boat.

Oh, and six is a question - why do you believe what LPE said about PSA boats being non conforming?  Since when is an announcement by one party in a dispute something we should simply accept without question? If we should accept all such statements, why not accept that ILCA and PSA have said? 

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On 4/12/2019 at 8:40 PM, Curious said:

So what? Add a bit more and you can buy a Waszp, a really modern dinghy.

One thing that really turns me off any thoughts of getting into Aeros is the negative attitude towards Lasers shown by some Aero sailors on the net.

Yes, those doing so with misinformation in many ways just trying to boost their ego  does more damage to the aero than the Laser. It is just sad and pathetic

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13 hours ago, Wess said:

I sure wish ILCA would be a bit more open about what they are trying to accomplish and how they see it playing out... why they think they can get there. 

Last time they risked pissing off non-member Laser sailors but had the support of members because their actions benefitted members (and even non-member Laser sailors) if anyone bothered to go in with an open mind and understand what was what. 

Here their actions seems to make no sense for anyone. Steve’s comments both re EU members and factors impacting builders (LPE and or future) are really telling and further cast doubt on the path ILCA has taken.

Come on ILCA. I can understand that a builder has to defend their IP and be able to make a profit - and they give me a boat for my money - so I have some (small) sympathy for them but I really WANT to support the class and the volunteers in it. Please be a bit more open and describe how the path you are on will benefit most members or even non member Laser sailors. Please tell me it’s more than a Hail Mary just retain the Olympic slot and damn everything and everyone else. I don't want to hear speculation from spectators, I want to hear that from the class leaders (who I and I think most sailors rightly have tons of respect for). Please!

yes

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I can't help thinking LPEs Club Laser has something to do with this. A standard Laser, but with no plaque or sail button, and a discount that vastly exceeds the cost of those items...  They've been doing "Training sails" on the same lines for quite a while. Certainly looks like a deliberate attempt to destroy ILCAs income stream.

 

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5 hours ago, JimC said:

I can't help thinking LPEs Club Laser has something to do with this. A standard Laser, but with no plaque or sail button, and a discount that vastly exceeds the cost of those items...  They've been doing "Training sails" on the same lines for quite a while. Certainly looks like a deliberate attempt to destroy ILCAs income stream.

 

Where are you seeing/finding prices JimC?

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7 hours ago, JimC said:

I can't help thinking LPEs Club Laser has something to do with this. A standard Laser, but with no plaque or sail button, and a discount that vastly exceeds the cost of those items...  They've been doing "Training sails" on the same lines for quite a while. Certainly looks like a deliberate attempt to destroy ILCAs income stream.

 

Well, if ILCA take away their right to make class legal boats of course they are going to carry on making boats that are not class legal.  They’re not going to stop production.

And as the profit margin on an LP Laser must be huge, there is plenty of scope for a good offers.

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I smell an LPE attempt to manipulate public opinion by making it seem as ILCA/WS are the cause of high prices.

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4 hours ago, VWAP said:

The class built on Ian Bruce's vision of a simple, fun, strict one design, single person,  dinghy  lasted for decades....but this seems like the cracks have turned into crevices and its all falling apart.

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That Alibaba /carbon fiber internet ad, complete with picture taken from Wikipedia, has been around for years.  Some company in China, no telling if there really are boats being made.  Does anyone have a link to anything directly from LP?

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4 hours ago, VWAP said:

Great new for UK sailors. The supply of new Lasers will continue. 
 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

Great new for UK sailors. The supply of new Lasers will continue. 
 

Virtually no chance of Laser type of boats being built in the USA

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18 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Virtually no chance of Laser type of boats being built in the USA

Let's hope that enterprising US dealers will find some way to continue to deliver Laser type boats to US customers who want them - Club Lasers from the UK, ILCAs from Australia, or maybe even American ILCAs if anybody wants to build them.

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2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Let's hope that enterprising US dealers will find some way to continue to deliver Laser type boats to US customers who want them - Club Lasers from the UK, Real Lasers from Australia (sshhh - don't tell LP) or maybe even ILCAs if anybody wants to build them.

Are you planning on buying a laser ?

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2 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Are you planning on buying a laser ?

I already have a Laser, so not planning to buy another one myself. But I want people to be able to buy new Lasers if they want to.

At our club we have fleets of Lasers, Sunfish and RS Aeros and I'd like to see them all thriving. The different classes appeal to people who want different things from sailing. There's room for all of us.

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34 minutes ago, tillerman said:

. There's room for all of us.

Who wrote there wasn't?

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It would help a ton if the Aussies on this thread (who don't spell out location in their screen name), use the term AUD or A$ when referencing prices. A new sort of class compliant Laser Race new is USD $6990, the RS Aero is $8,995. Big deltas vs. the AUD prices. Hard for me to justify getting into a new Laser at those prices to boot or Aeros as competitive non foiling A-Cat's are in the $8-$10k range used, but I'm a multihull guy. I also appreciate the draw of a large fleet and hate to see this shitfight as all it tends to do is fracture the fleet.

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Can we just forget about price comparisons from here on? They are confusing, omit crucial issues (taxes, exchange rates, transportation etc.) and do not contribute to the topic of this thread.

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I remember looking at a dinghy at a boat rental in Italy, was 99% laser but transom was altered , the guy says we the brand has that so they dont get into trouble but all parts fit.

We buy them in all the rental schools as they retail for 50% of a laser!!

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I wonder if those are the infamous "Russian Lasers"? I think somebody needs to post that picture of the woman in a bikini falling out of her Russian Laser so we can study this. 

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Interesting that all the manufacturers, regional class associations, international class association, and governing body have all gone silent.  No lawsuits filed.  One can only hope that a behind the scenes resolution is in the work.  Very much hoping the next communication (which is on tap) does not come from ILCA two weeks from now saying in part..."and the boat will be rebranded and called the ILCA."  Maybe just maybe adults can be adults and find a middle ground!!

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That may be true Pepper but multiple well respected, highly placed and knowledgeable folks have opined that there are multiple potential issues with the current path.  I am a long time ILCA supporter but have my doubts about this.  Would love to be wrong but not seeing peaches and cream... rather an ugly cliff ahead from which there is not return once fallen.  Or to your point they have have already jumped.  We will certainly know what is what by the end of May post World Sailing mid year meeting.

And Gouv, that may be the best marketing typo in history!  Any tie dye bunnies?

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25 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Bear in mind I am running a 36th annual regatta this weekend and I once invested over $100,000 setting up my version of the right operation to manage and promote Laser sailing in North America. 

Who the hell can claim to be a rational adult on either side of the shitfight??

On one side we have a company declining to provide its product to a region where it is guaranteed $10,000,000 in sales 

on the other side we have a group of people who have spent the  previous decade asking people to come play on toys built by that reluctant supplier and who still DEMAND their playmates bring no toys unless those toys are bought from the reluctant supplier.

Rational adults?? Where?? 

 

Anyone ever consider the "Iranian conflict" the US has and that the Iranian owner of LP may be screwing over NA just for that reason?

 

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1 hour ago, lemonpepper said:

Wess you've got to come to reality mate. ILCA have already said they are going forward with a new name for the boat. This is happening. Not sure about what you "hope" will come of a last minute reconciliation with LP or why you think that is remotely possible. That company have already shown they are terrible for the class the suppliers the sailors and everyone who comes on contact with them. My opinion: pretty sure that ILCA is run by rational adults. Looks like the other side might have challenges in that area.

I don’t believe it is that straight forward.  It requires a change of constitution to change the class name and logo, and I don’t think they’d get sufficient support. They will likely need to start a new class from scratch and so can’t be in the Olympics as the new class was trialled.

ILCA constitution (edited highlights):

NAME
1. The name of the Association shall be the INTERNATIONAL LASER CLASS ASSOCIATION, with Head Office
at PO Box 49250, Austin, Texas 78765, USA.

INSIGNIA
2. The emblem of the Class shall be the recognised Laser symbol, and the insignia of the officers shall be those prescribed by By-Law.

AMENDMENTS

17. Amendments to this Constitution shall be approved by each of:

(a) the World Council
(b) the Advisory Council
(c) at least two thirds of the membership replying in writing to the International Office of the Class in response to a postal ballot published by the International Office. Only those postal votes returned to the International Office within 6 months from the date of publication of the proposed change shall be valid.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Anyone ever consider the "Iranian conflict" the US has and that the Iranian owner of LP may be screwing over NA just for that reason?

 

Yea that's right, he is probably working with putin to bring the russian  Lurch into the US to destroy the American world wide  dominance in dinghy manufacturing.

800px-luch-standart_dinghy.jpg?w=541&h=4

 

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4 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Yea that's right, he is probably working with putin to bring the russian  Lurch into the US to destroy the American world wide  dominance in dinghy manufacturing.

800px-luch-standart_dinghy.jpg?w=541&h=4

 

How come that wasn't in Valencia last month?

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Maybe it was with a Laser class legal sai... oh gotta go EAZE is at the door

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

Yea that's right, he is probably working with putin to bring the russian  Lurch into the US to destroy the American world wide  dominance in dinghy manufacturing.

800px-luch-standart_dinghy.jpg?w=541&h=4

 

Shit that is funny. Well played.

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14 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I don’t believe it is that straight forward.  It requires a change of constitution to change the class name and logo, and I don’t think they’d get sufficient support.

hey Jonah, they got permission for the rule change that kept Laser performance in the game, and that was arguably much more controversial.  The advisory council will be no problem since LPE will not be on it, having been chucked as a builder.

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Second points a good one, but not sure why you’ve called me Jonah? I’m no LP fan, it just seems more complex than ILCA say. 

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Can't see that Steve...

 

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17 hours ago, Wess said:

multiple well respected, highly placed and knowledgeable folks have opined that there are multiple potential issues with the current path. 

Not really

 

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14 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

 

It is a Faustian  pact Ushered in to finish  the job started by I_ P

 That last thing is a backwards 9II with one tower knocked over !

Now that is some funny shit right there

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18 hours ago, lemonpepper said:

Wess you've got to come to reality mate. ILCA have already said they are going forward with a new name for the boat. This is happening. Not sure about what you "hope" will come of a last minute reconciliation with LP or why you think that is remotely possible. That company have already shown they are terrible for the class the suppliers the sailors and everyone who comes on contact with them. My opinion: pretty sure that ILCA is run by rational adults. Looks like the other side might have challenges in that area.

Hang on... LP have a pretty comprehensive dealer network around here, support the National Championships and seem to be able to supply boats for charter to major events... those get recycled out to sailors who can then but a nearly-new, refurbished boat through an LP dealer at a discounted price. If spares are needed for a boat we can order them online, phone up the local supplier and usually call by to pick them up same day or have them brought FOC to one of the bigger events... As well as LP supporting the Nationals, one of those dealers backs the 4.7 fleet.

 Obviously this isn't the case worldwide, I get that, but my experience is that LP were definitely supporting the class, the dealers and the sailors... right up to a few weeks back when they had the rug pulled out from under them by the class association... causing disruption that may compromise the inclusion of the class in the Olympics and the associated support that goes with that.

 It's not obvious to me, at least, that ILCA's action is a cause for celebration, nor that LP are the spawn of Hell...

Thanks,

               W.

 

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53 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Not really

 

Well they at least still have hair and regularly sail or built the thing!

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http://eurilca.org/400-youth-sailors-47-europeans-hyeres/?fbclid=IwAR2NOllgw2qXsaXTH_lhqQyLdPIXPCfRpOgK1jE9iBqyb167KNItpdeQ7qw

400 Youth sailors were registered for the next 2019 Laser 4.7 Youth European Championships & Open European Trophy to be played in Hyeres, France, from May 18th to 25th.

Entries closes in 2 days, so you’re still on time to 

2019 LASER 4.7 YOUTH EUROPEAN CHAMPIONSHIPS – ENTRIES ARE RECORD

266 boys and 134 girls have already joined this 2019 Laser 4.7 Youth European championships, two days before closing the registration time. This is highest participation on this event since EurILCA was created in November 2013.

Previous record was 2017 in Los Alcazares, Spain, with 344 sailors.

Other editions were 2014 Norway (280 sailors), 2015 Poland (231), 2016 France (304) and 2018 Greece (311).

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27 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well they at least still have hair and regularly sail or built the thing!

lol

Seriously though, I've seen far, far more support for ILCA's position than for LPE's.  The number of people who absolutely HATE the way LPE has done business with them over the past decade is pretty substantial.   I encountered it weekly when working for SA; nasty emails from disgruntled employees, pleas to expose some shenanigans or other,  copies of invoices for paid boats that hadn't been delivered in months and months without communication, that kind of shit. 

 

 

 

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14 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

lol

Seriously though, I've seen far, far more support for ILCA's position than for LPE's.  The number of people who absolutely HATE the way LPE has done business with them over the past decade is pretty substantial.   I encountered it weekly when working for SA; nasty emails from disgruntled employees, pleas to expose some shenanigans or other,  copies of invoices for paid boats that hadn't been delivered in months and months without communication, that kind of shit. 

 

 

 

I hear you.  But think about all the negative screaming about ILCA last time (when they were clearly right) and how little the internet blowhads actually matter vs those in class voting (with their ballots or feet).  Beyond that, I agree nobody loves LPE but I do wonder about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I don't mean the people of ILCA are bad at all.  Quite the opposite.  But when Steve Clark talks I listen (both about the need for EU member support/solution... as others as well have noted... and builder's margin and volume).  When the EurILCA folks who are voting members and active and sailing and respected over there (and here I think... I don't think most who are class members view them as LPE shrills at all) talk I listen.  And finally, looking at the tea leaves, I really doubt that the path ILCA is one is likely to result in a better builder/service/supply for NA, about equal or lower priced boats, or even an improved chance of keeping the Olympic slot.  Add on top the clear grumblings in Europe and LPE at a minimum offering club Lasers into most all markets (and a club scene that is prepped to possibly welcome them as they did generic parts and sails), a class fracture seems reasonably likely. Please don't understand me; if ILCA's path and actions actually avoids all that I will be thrilled and happy to see LPE go. But sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.  Either way its going to be interesting to watch what happens over the next month and a half and if the separation is permanent, the fireworks will really start then.  

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20 hours ago, Wess said:

That may be true Pepper but multiple well respected, highly placed and knowledgeable folks have opined that there are multiple potential issues with the current path.  I am a long time ILCA supporter but have my doubts about this.  Would love to be wrong but not seeing peaches and cream... rather an ugly cliff ahead from which there is not return once fallen.  Or to your point they have have already jumped.  We will certainly know what is what by the end of May post World Sailing mid year meeting.

3

 

There is nothing anyone sees about this 'getting resolved'.

ILCA is fighting 9 years of the most disastrous company mismanagement and supply chain abuse by LaserPerformance in possibly the history of small boat sailing.
(and that's saying a lot, as the industry has been run by all sorts of character without a shred of business acumen over the years).

 

Every single person in the entire supply chain for North America wants nothing to do with LP.
You need to understand how deep the hatred and rot is from top to bottom there, and how much everyone who deals with them hates them.
You need to fundamentally understand that - this isn't just some internet trolling going on - it's people's lives and businesses.

The jump has been made.  No one is going back.

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

I hear you.  But think about all the negative screaming about ILCA last time (when they were clearly right) and how little the internet blowhads actually matter vs those in class voting (with their ballots or feet).  Beyond that, I agree nobody loves LPE but I do wonder about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I don't mean the people of ILCA are bad at all.  Quite the opposite.  But when Steve Clark talks I listen (both about the need for EU member support/solution... as others as well have noted... and builder's margin and volume).  When the EurILCA folks who are voting members and active and sailing and respected over there (and here I think... I don't think most who are class members view them as LPE shrills at all) talk I listen.  And finally, looking at the tea leaves, I really doubt that the path ILCA is one is likely to result in a better builder/service/supply for NA, about equal or lower priced boats, or even an improved chance of keeping the Olympic slot.  Add on top the clear grumblings in Europe and LPE at a minimum offering club Lasers into most all markets (and a club scene that is prepped to possibly welcome them as they did generic parts and sails), a class fracture seems reasonably likely. Please don't understand me; if ILCA's path and actions actually avoids all that I will be thrilled and happy to see LPE go. But sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.  Either way its going to be interesting to watch what happens over the next month and a half and if the separation is permanent, the fireworks will really start then.  

With respect, Steve Clark has been out of the business for almost a decade now.  The game has moved well on.

The biggest dinghy brand in North America is a British company with a very different distribution model than what Vanguard/LP ever had. 
Sorry, these are modern, up to date facts that invalidate how it was 'back in the day'

 

--
Lots is going on behind the scenes with negotiations at high levels between manufacturers / marketing / supply chain / governing bodies.
Don't mistake silence on a forum you frequent with inaction.

 

Everything is on fire and this class will never be the same.  Sorry dude, that's how it is.
Sometimes the forrest needs to burn to the ground to be reborn.

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

 

Beyond that, I agree nobody loves LPE but I do wonder about jumping from the frying pan into the fire. I don't mean the people of ILCA are bad at all.  Quite the opposite.  But when Steve Clark talks I listen (both about the need for EU member support/solution... as others as well have noted... and builder's margin and volume).  When the EurILCA folks who are voting members and active and sailing and respected over there (and here I think... I don't think most who are class members view them as LPE shrills at all) talk I listen.  And finally, looking at the tea leaves, I really doubt that the path ILCA is one is likely to result in a better builder/service/supply for NA, about equal or lower priced boats, or even an improved chance of keeping the Olympic slot.  Add on top the clear grumblings in Europe and LPE at a minimum offering club Lasers into most all markets (and a club scene that is prepped to possibly welcome them as they did generic parts and sails), a class fracture seems reasonably likely. Please don't understand me; if ILCA's path and actions actually avoids all that I will be thrilled and happy to see LPE go. But sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't.  Either way its going to be interesting to watch what happens over the next month and a half and if the separation is permanent, the fireworks will really start then.  

 

1) Steve Clark gave his opinion of what might happen.  He's honest and blunt and I adore who he is, but (with all due respect) he is also kinda cray. That's all been documented in these forums.

2) Your assumptions about EurILCA are bare ones.  

3) It would be impossible to have a worse supply for NA customers than they have been subjected to over the past, say, five years.  Find one person to disagree with this one who has been a paying customer.

"sometimes the devil you know is better than the devil you don't."

"Don't do business with fucking devils"

 

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53 minutes ago, BlatantEcho said:

Lots is going on behind the scenes with negotiations at high levels between manufacturers / marketing / supply chain / governing bodies.
Don't mistake silence on a forum you frequent with inaction.

 

Everything is on fire and this class will never be the same.  Sorry dude, that's how it is.
Sometimes the forrest needs to burn to the ground to be reborn.

Oh I tend to agree its on fire and never suggested silence was inaction.  I suggested quite the contrary.  The question is what action.  Frankly you seem to agree more with my assessment when you say it burns to the ground.  I don't even think its going to be that bad... I just think the ILCA cure (this time around) might be worse than the disease but we shall see.  All of us are just talking into the wind.  The reality will be whatever it will be and that gets decided outside this fun forum.

And Clean I suspect many in South America would disagree your 3 re North America.  Think they had it worse than us.  And as a paying customer as you say while I obviously think it was far from optimal I also don't think it was a bad as the internet hyperbole.  I can only speak for me but I always had access to new boats, sails or parts with some pre-planning.  The one time I didn't was when I broke a gudgeon at a regatta and needed a new one NOW.  For that I had no option but a generic part.  Other folks on this forum also buying boats and actually sailing in the class have suggested same.  Its rare folks speak up for them... well because nobody wants to speak up for them me included.  All I am saying here is don't mistake what I think is fair to say is very widespread displeasure for LPE at the end customer level by saying "its impossible to have worse."  I would not be shocked to end up with worse.

But you still can't kill the Laser or whatever varied names the boat(s) and class(es) gets called.  Still the best thing out there and still will be after all this dust settles.  :D

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With all due respect, you can shit in your hat.

The new reality is that Laser Performance has let others get a toe hold in the North American market.  The “success” of the Aero has less to do with what Laser Performance hasn’t done than what RS has done.  

If you take a leap of faith, and believe that the managers of Laser Performance aren’t idiots, but act in their financial best interest, they may have minimized their efforts in North America because the North American market is not worth the trouble and expense. They make more money in Europe, and promotion in Europe pays higher dividends than promotion in the US.  

Hard pill to swallow that, but with all due respect, some will swallow anything.  In order to keep racing Lasers, people will jump through hoops they didn’t have to in the past.  These are not that burdensome compared to other racing classes thanks to the internet and Federal Express. Since dealers don’t keep anything in stock, selling direct makes sense and it really doesn’t matter that much if you are buying from Connecticut or Sydney.

SHC

.

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14 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

With all due respect, you can shit in your hat..

lol.  you never disappoint!

 

 

Screen Shot 2019-04-17 at 1.50.45 PM.png

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17 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

 

If you take a leap of faith, and believe that the managers of Laser Performance...act in their financial best interest.

Your assumption would indeed be a hell of a leap considering said managers' histories and the timing and legal reasons for their abandonment of the NA market.  Would be interesting to learn just how much FR started with in his account back in the day.  Remember what they said about the money Trump got from daddy if he had just invested it when he got it a hundred years ago instead of trying to build things and continually going bankrupt.

As a lawyer with a firm advising large financial institutions, it's absolutely shocking what kind of shit some "highly respected managers"can get up to when no one is watching.  And 'highly respected' is not a word I've seen used referring to LP's managers anytime in the recent past.

 

 

 

 

 

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Sorry @MR.CLEANbut if I gotta pick between your and Steve's view I am going w Steve.  Not only did he build one of the Lasers (greatest boat ever and still)  I still own but his kid builds the UFO.  Besides, his view re Laser makes sense, and the only thing you built is a post count.

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Just now, Wess said:

Sorry @MR.CLEANbut if I gotta pick between your and Steve's view I am going w Steve.  Not only did he build one of the Lasers (greatest boat ever and still)  I still own but his kid builds the UFO.  Besides, his view re Laser makes sense, and the only thing you built is a post count.

don't worry I also choose Steve over me, but I also have years and years of correspondance from literally dozens of countries about this matter from when I ran this smelly website

 

 

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21 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

The new reality is that Laser Performance has let others get a toe hold in the North American market.  The “success” of the Aero has less to do with what Laser Performance hasn’t done than what RS has done.  

If you take a leap of faith, and believe that the managers of Laser Performance aren’t idiots, but act in their financial best interest, they may have minimized their efforts in North America because the North American market is not worth the trouble and expense. They make more money in Europe, and promotion in Europe pays higher dividends than promotion in the US.  

Hard pill to swallow that, but with all due respect, some will swallow anything.  In order to keep racing Lasers, people will jump through hoops they didn’t have to in the past.  These are not that burdensome compared to other racing classes thanks to the internet and Federal Express. Since dealers don’t keep anything in stock, selling direct makes sense and it really doesn’t matter that much if you are buying from Connecticut or Sydney.

SHC

.

1

Steve - I have a lot of respect for, the company you built and sold, and your contribution to the sport.
Agree with others though, you're using some pretty outdated information to draw incorrect conclusions.

 

With respect:

RS doesn't have a 'toe hold' in the US... they are the biggest importer, with all the key dealers representing their boats.
2018 Industry data I've seen shows them selling around 2x the boats in North America that LP does...
Even if it were even - I think that's a bit more of a 'toe hold' than you infer.

LP opened the door for RS for sure, but, RS came in with tighter integration with super dealers, much better supply, and running cool events.
Better, more modern products tend to do that when cities grow, traffic worsens. 
Look at the UFO, that has grown not in the old method of dealership from the past, but selling to a clientele directly that could not care less about Lasers.

 

--
I can't speak to the managers of LP, as I find them to personally be pretty nice people.
It's hard to argue with your 'EuroCentric' notion. 
But, I find it really hard to believe that giving up the NA market was a cold, calculated business decision on their part.
It seems more like death by 10,000 cuts.

Staff cuts, infrastructure cuts, marketing cuts... it just piles up.
Parts supply has been really really bad in NA for about 9 years.
If *that's* a strategy - to not sell the stuff that customers want, dealers buy, and everyone makes money on.... for 9 years...I tip my hat to them for being more advanced in business than I am.

 

I just think that, here, where we are, the horse left the stable about 6 years ago.
The metaphors used of a house on fire are a bit dark, but, I get it.

 

I don't pretend to know what is going to happen, but, the situation is far worse than you think.
 

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3 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

lol

Seriously though, I've seen far, far more support for ILCA's position than for LPE's.  The number of people who absolutely HATE the way LPE has done business with them over the past decade is pretty substantial.   I encountered it weekly when working for SA; nasty emails from disgruntled employees, pleas to expose some shenanigans or other,  copies of invoices for paid boats that hadn't been delivered in months and months without communication, that kind of shit. 

 

 

 

You mean LPE does business pretty much the same way as every other small boat builder I've ever dealt with? Say it ain't so...

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41 minutes ago, Steve Clark said:

If you take a leap of faith, and believe that the managers of Laser Performance aren’t idiots, but act in their financial best interest, they may have minimized their efforts in North America because the North American market is not worth the trouble and expense. They make more money in Europe, and promotion in Europe pays higher dividends than promotion in the US.  
 

.

I would have thought the US market was roughly the size of the European market.  However the truth is they sell >1000 Lasers annually in Europe but only a few hundred in the US?  I light of that, I understand LPEs actions a little bit more, as far as closing the RI facility and consolidating everything in the UK.

I still think they're a shitty company.

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43 minutes ago, WestCoast said:

Steve - I have a lot of respect for, the company you built and sold, and your contribution to the sport.
Agree with others though, you're using some pretty outdated information to draw incorrect conclusions.

 

With respect:

RS doesn't have a 'toe hold' in the US... they are the biggest importer, with all the key dealers representing their boats.
2018 Industry data I've seen shows them selling around 2x the boats in North America that LP does...
Even if it were even - I think that's a bit more of a 'toe hold' than you infer.

LP opened the door for RS for sure, but, RS came in with tighter integration with super dealers, much better supply, and running cool events.
Better, more modern products tend to do that when cities grow, traffic worsens. 
Look at the UFO, that has grown not in the old method of dealership from the past, but selling to a clientele directly that could not care less about Lasers.

 

--
I can't speak to the managers of LP, as I find them to personally be pretty nice people.
It's hard to argue with your 'EuroCentric' notion. 
But, I find it really hard to believe that giving up the NA market was a cold, calculated business decision on their part.
It seems more like death by 10,000 cuts.

Staff cuts, infrastructure cuts, marketing cuts... it just piles up.
Parts supply has been really really bad in NA for about 9 years.
If *that's* a strategy - to not sell the stuff that customers want, dealers buy, and everyone makes money on.... for 9 years...I tip my hat to them for being more advanced in business than I am.

 

I just think that, here, where we are, the horse left the stable about 6 years ago.
The metaphors used of a house on fire are a bit dark, but, I get it.

 

I don't pretend to know what is going to happen, but, the situation is far worse than you think.
 

Thanks for the information.

Could you clarify a few things.

As this discussion is about the Laser, single handed dinghy are you stating they sell 2x the number of the RS Aero's than the class legal LPE Laser in North America? 

Parts supply, do you currently have on your self ready to ship, pick up  all replacement parts for the Aero, rudders, centerboards, complete spars, deck, hull fittings etc. If not in general which parts do you currently stock?

BTW these past few years your company has been great supplying laser parts when available and all other non boat related items. Your customer service is good.

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10 hours ago, lemonpepper said:

I don't think they are idiots I think they are incapable of managing people and running a business. Things are going downhill fast in the UK too from what I hear. The smart ones left long ago. 

image.thumb.png.a5309fc2e69cf634d1b5015f131d4d36.png

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