Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

Recommended Posts

One of JB’s posts upstream had a thinly veiled threat statement that market forces will decide whether the C rigs gain traction or not, and once there are sufficient numbers an international class association can be formed regardless of what ILCA want.  So, in that sense, ILCA may as well adopt them - keep your friends close and your enemies closer.  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
36 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

One of JB’s posts upstream had a thinly veiled threat statement that market forces will decide whether the C rigs gain traction or not, and once there are sufficient numbers an international class association can be formed regardless of what ILCA want.  So, in that sense, ILCA may as well adopt them - keep your friends close and your enemies closer.  

Exactly.

But what about the LaserPerformance ARC rigs?

By the same argument, should ILCA adopt them too?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, tillerman said:

Good point.

From what you know about the C rigs today, what percentage of the current Laser/Radial/4.7 sailors would buy them, do you think?

 

I think it would be little at first.  I assume the Cx rigs are geared towards keeping the Laser hull in the Olympics one way or another.  I would assume these groups would adopt the Cx rigs first.  Maybe 10%?  Over time they would definitely be trickling their way down to grass roots.  People who like the look of the fancy new rigs will show up at masters regattas, and the old codgers will cry foul.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Exactly.

But what about the LaserPerformance ARC rigs?

By the same argument, should ILCA adopt them too?

I will agree with some of the above posts that IF we are going to go down this route, it is best to have the ILCA on board with only ONE set of alternative rigs.  That can help manage the impact on grass roots.  I'm unhappy with several parties at the moment, but LP is the last one I would support.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, torrid said:

People who like the look of the fancy new rigs will show up at masters regattas, and the old codgers will cry foul.

Hey! I resemble that comment.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, torrid said:

 People who like the look of the fancy new rigs will show up at masters regattas, and the old codgers will cry foul.

But let's say that at a Master's Regatta for 30 Lasers, 5 old geezers said they wanted to come with C8 rigs. Obviously they couldn't be allowed to race on equal terms as the old codgers with class legal rigs, but would you give them a separate start?

What if some of the old codgers tried out some of the old geezers' C8 rigs and next year there were 20 Lasers with class legal rigs and 10 with C-rigs?

Can the real Lasers and Lasers with C-rigs co-exist in that way?

What's the alternative? Separate smaller regattas for each rig?

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, tillerman said:

But let's say that at a Master's Regatta for 30 Lasers, 5 old geezers said they wanted to come with C8 rigs. Obviously they couldn't be allowed to race on equal terms as the old codgers with class legal rigs, but would you give them a separate start?

What if some of the old codgers tried out some of the old geezers' C8 rigs and next year there were 20 Lasers with class legal rigs and 10 with C-rigs?

Can the real Lasers and Lasers with C-rigs co-exist in that way?

What's the alternative? Separate smaller regattas for each rig?

 

There are a few options, all of which suck.

1) Fully adopt the new rigs as an option while racing. Presumably the new rigs will be faster, and those with old rigs stand no choice of winning. 

2) As above, but have separate scoring. 

3) Have separate fleets for separate rigs - so you could potentially have 6 starts for ILCA dinghies. 

4) Ban the old rigs from ILCA racing thereby forcefully destroying the fleets.

Any of the above will likely result in growth of the Aero fleet, so at least somebody benefits.

This isn't like new foils or new rigging. This is way more significant. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, bill4 said:

There are a few options, all of which suck.

1) Fully adopt the new rigs as an option while racing. Presumably the new rigs will be faster, and those with old rigs stand no choice of winning. 

2) As above, but have separate scoring. 

3) Have separate fleets for separate rigs - so you could potentially have 6 starts for ILCA dinghies. 

4) Ban the old rigs from ILCA racing thereby forcefully destroying the fleets.

Any of the above will likely result in growth of the Aero fleet, so at least somebody benefits.

This isn't like new foils or new rigging. This is way more significant. 

I agree it's nothing like new foils or new rigging. It could be the biggest change the Laser class has seen in its history.

The choice seems to be between
a) embracing all the new rigs and have separate fleet scoring in regattas, or perhaps handicap scoring in one fleet. Whatever the details, this way keeps all the Laser sailors together in one community. Might even attract more people into the class.

b) shun the new rigs and make them go off and organize their own events. This way the class splinters. There would probably be an Arc Class and a C Class and they would organize some kind of racing for their different sail sizes much the same way as the Laser Class does now. 

Not sure how all this would affect the Aero class. If anything, I think the availability of new rigs for the Lasers might persuade some Laser sailors hankering for a change to stick with the Laser and buy C or Arc rigs instead of moving to the Aero.

I sincerely hope that Lasers and Sunfish and RS Aeros (and all the other singlehanded classes) continue to thrive. Class growth is not a zero sum game. One class doesn't have to grow at the expense of another. A good range of options can grow the whole sport.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, torrid said:

I'm unhappy with several parties at the moment, but LP is the last one I would support.

According to Andy's letter in the recent ILCA Magazine it sounds like things are pretty close to coming back together with LPE... Unless things have slipped backward since mid-December.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I agree it's nothing like new foils or new rigging. It could be the biggest change the Laser class has seen in its history.

The choice seems to be between
a) embracing all the new rigs and have separate fleet scoring in regattas, or perhaps handicap scoring in one fleet. Whatever the details, this way keeps all the Laser sailors together in one community. Might even attract more people into the class.

b) shun the new rigs and make them go off and organize their own events. This way the class splinters. There would probably be an Arc Class and a C Class and they would organize some kind of racing for their different sail sizes much the same way as the Laser Class does now. 

Not sure how all this would affect the Aero class. If anything, I think the availability of new rigs for the Lasers might persuade some Laser sailors hankering for a change to stick with the Laser and buy C or Arc rigs instead of moving to the Aero.

I sincerely hope that Lasers and Sunfish and RS Aeros (and all the other singlehanded classes) continue to thrive. Class growth is not a zero sum game. One class doesn't have to grow at the expense of another. A good range of options can grow the whole sport.

Or they let the 4.7/C5 rig be the guinea pig.  If it takes off in come the C7 and C9.  If it crashes the 4.7 fleet then it's a hard stop.

At least for the moment there is zero discussions regarding the ARC rigs, (which I honestly like the look of better, but that's just me.).

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ILCA's great leader (Tracy) has looked into the future and sees C rigs in the Olympics in (roughly) ten years (2028?).  The latter is speculation on my part, but Tracy has clearly stated that white sails (and aluminum spars) are likely to disappear from the racing scene at the higher levels. At the club level, it may take a lot longer, which is totally fine with me. 

Nevertheless, better start saving, because the C rigs will come at considerable cost.  And, as others have written, I doubt there will be a class vote about the change over. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, Wavedancer II said:

ILCA's great leader (Tracy) has looked into the future and sees C rigs in the Olympics in (roughly) ten years (2028?).  

Sailing may not survive the Olympics past 2024 anyway. Too expensive and bottom of the pile in terms of TV revenue potential.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 minutes ago, bill4 said:

bottom of the pile in terms of TV revenue potential.  

Turns out that our humble little sport is at or near the top of the Olympic analytics for photography, media inquiry, and instagram engagement.  As dull as sailing can be on video, no sport can match it for beauty in a still image.

According to some fairly high ranking folks I speak to regularly, sailing ain't going anywhere.

  • Like 5

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Turns out that our humble little sport is at or near the top of the Olympic analytics for photography, media inquiry, and instagram engagement.  As dull as sailing can be on video, no sport can match it for beauty in a still image.

According to some fairly high ranking folks I speak to regularly, sailing ain't going anywhere.

Good to hear! I hope they have a massive TV in the home...

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

that's a nice vid.  not great storytelling, but pretty and stirring

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

According to Chris Caldecoat at the recent ALCA AGM, C5 rigs are for sale at the moment, but there's no immediate plans for the class to adopt them. He thinks that the C5 could be a success, but is far more skeptical about the other two rigs. That being said, apparently the IOC/WS are keen to see the Olympic boats with new rigs.

On another note, he said how he expected no more 3 or 4 new builders, as there are few companies out there with the experience or the roughly $2.5m needed to start up. 

Further, PSA has also agreed to be the charter boat supplier for all ILCA and WS World Championships, regardless of location, and at no cost to the OA.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wavedancer II said:

ILCA's great leader (Tracy) has looked into the future 

7C5E0EA6-AF74-4B14-95D0-20E7CE07F642.thumb.jpeg.cdb1a2bc96c7122aa0d5b8f5dea4682b.jpeg

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, tillerman said:

Exactly.

But what about the LaserPerformance ARC rigs?

By the same argument, should ILCA adopt them too?

Why not Rooster rigs ? Why not rigs with generic sails and sections?? After all they may be the most popular presently? 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again, just for information.

I understand the the ALCA and OLCA at their AGM few weeks ago, endorsed the C-Rigs, which ones, what are the terms, I don't know!   I was not there and I have not asked.

At the Laser club in Middle Harbour in Sydney a C5 is sailing against 4.7's and Radials now openly and apparently with approval on a regular basis.

It's a C5, a C6 and a C8 (there is no C7 or C9, (some Finn sailors have asked for a C9))   The reason is if you actually measure the area of a 4.7, its approx 5.4m² behind the mast.  the 4.7 comes from the area of 4.7857m², the triangle head-clew-tack (so no luff round, no leach, no foot round)  

The area of a C5 inc the cuff is approx 5.65m², and the mast is about 300mm short than a 4.7 mast, & weighs 5.1kgs.

The area of a Radial behind the mast is approx. 6.4m², the area of a C6 is around 6.7m².

A Std sail, which is nominally 7.1 is really 7.8m², and the C8 is about 8.4m².

All this work was done 3-4 years ago, where the actual C5, C6 & C8 rigs have landed, I don't know. 

All the masts are about 300 - 350mm shorter than there alloy or alloy/carbon counterpart.

The C8 mast (2 piece) is just under 5kgs inc track and fittings.  (lighter than a C5) I believe the std alloy mast is 10.4kgs in the same form.   (don't know what the 3 piece C8 mast will weight yet)

Finally, the IndeGoGo launch.      3m impressions, Reach is over 1m, click through to UM is now a little over 100k, with filtered clicks (serious) at 40,000.     When we did this we where asked not to target Europe, so none of the Instagram's or fB promotions when into Europe (inc UK) other than by referrals and leakage.

The biggest interest is from the UK, 4th biggest is Italy, and down to 8th are all European.    (There is no C5 rig in UK!!   The only one in Europe is at Nautivela's (Milano).     But we have been asked to display the C5 at the London Dinghy Show.      Who asked & who makes that decision is not me, it's above my pay grade~!

The single biggest inquiry is for C6 rigs (so the Radial equivalent) mostly from +50 year old men.

As at the 28th January, the IndeGoGo will be done, UM will move on and the future of the C-Rigs will rest in the hands of PSJ.     

I am also aware that PSA wants rigs, and plans to gear up, but again, NMP!

                       jB

  • Like 4

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, JulianB said:

Again, just for information.

I understand the the ALCA and OLCA at their AGM few weeks ago, endorsed the C-Rigs, which ones, what are the terms, I don't know!   I was not there and I have not asked.

At the Laser club in Middle Harbour in Sydney a C5 is sailing against 4.7's and Radials now openly and apparently with approval on a regular basis.

It's a C5, a C6 and a C8 (there is no C7 or C9, (some Finn sailors have asked for a C9))   The reason is if you actually measure the area of a 4.7, its approx 5.4m² behind the mast.  the 4.7 comes from the area of 4.7857m², the triangle head-clew-tack (so no luff round, no leach, no foot round)  

The area of a C5 inc the cuff is approx 5.65m², and the mast is about 300mm short than a 4.7 mast, & weighs 5.1kgs.

The area of a Radial behind the mast is approx. 6.4m², the area of a C6 is around 6.7m².

A Std sail, which is nominally 7.1 is really 7.8m², and the C8 is about 8.4m².

All this work was done 3-4 years ago, where the actual C5, C6 & C8 rigs have landed, I don't know. 

All the masts are about 300 - 350mm shorter than there alloy or alloy/carbon counterpart.

The C8 mast (2 piece) is just under 5kgs inc track and fittings.  (lighter than a C5) I believe the std alloy mast is 10.4kgs in the same form.   (don't know what the 3 piece C8 mast will weight yet)

Finally, the IndeGoGo launch.      3m impressions, Reach is over 1m, click through to UM is now a little over 100k, with filtered clicks (serious) at 40,000.     When we did this we where asked not to target Europe, so none of the Instagram's or fB promotions when into Europe (inc UK) other than by referrals and leakage.

The biggest interest is from the UK, 4th biggest is Italy, and down to 8th are all European.    (There is no C5 rig in UK!!   The only one in Europe is at Nautivela's (Milano).     But we have been asked to display the C5 at the London Dinghy Show.      Who asked & who makes that decision is not me, it's above my pay grade~!

The single biggest inquiry is for C6 rigs (so the Radial equivalent) mostly from +50 year old men.

As at the 28th January, the IndeGoGo will be done, UM will move on and the future of the C-Rigs will rest in the hands of PSJ.     

I am also aware that PSA wants rigs, and plans to gear up, but again, NMP!

                       jB

Most likely it was LPE that asked.  B)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Yeh right!

BTW, I have just happen to speak with Ken Hurling who is the Pres of OLCA/ALCA.   He tells me that the C5 rig was openly discussed at the AGM's, that people where told that they are available, how much and where to buy them.

His position is that he hopes there are 100+ in Australia in under a year and that "nature will take it's course".

So I need to retract my statement that they where endorse, that's probably over stating the position.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, JulianB said:

The single biggest inquiry is for C6 rigs (so the Radial equivalent) mostly from +50 year old men.

The C6 release will be the trigger for me to buy a new boat, I'm not in the 50+ bracket quite yet though :)

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

It’s too bad you guys won’t go all the way and just design a new hull to go with the CRigs. I have a lot of respect for the Aero guys for doing that. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Again just for information.

Both the C5 and the C6 are available now.

If you want a C5, then you would be mad not to grab the IndeGoGO launch price.

We wont do a C6 IndeGoGO, so you can buy it now from PSJ, PSA, Nautivela or UM.

Delivery (for both C5 and C6) is likely to be late Feb in AUS and Easter in Europe, 2 issues.

#1 Both Caldecott and Paolo (Nautivela) are relying on me to set them up to manufacture the rigs and I got a bit on, I'm in Rome on Friday.

#2 CNY start's 21st Jan, goes till Feb 3rd so there will be no sails coming out of Pryde's (Shenzhen, China) until mid Feb at the earliest! 

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

As I have been asked privately, C8, we need to get the new 49er/FX rig out of the way so it's at least 6 months down the track!

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

It’s too bad you guys won’t go all the way and just design a new hull to go with the CRigs. I have a lot of respect for the Aero guys for doing that. 

Wait for Phase 2 - modified hull and rudder ;)

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, greenwhiteblack said:

On another note, he said how he expected no more 3 or 4 new builders, as there are few companies out there with the experience or the roughly $2.5m needed to start up. 

I don’t really understand this.  Every boatbuilder in the world has the technical skills to build a Laser, it ain’t hi tech.  And how can it take $2.5m to set up?  The tooling costs would be at least an order of magnitude less than this.  

It just adds to the perception that this whole business was about increasing PSA control and market share.  Caldecott may be a great guy with the best interests of the Laser class at heart.  Or he may be a sly businessman who has pulled the rug out from under Rastegar’s feet.  

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, sosoomii said:

I don’t really understand this.  Every boatbuilder in the world has the technical skills to build a Laser, it ain’t hi tech.  And how can it take $2.5m to set up?  The tooling costs would be at least an order of magnitude less than this.

Maybe it doesn't cost much to build "a Laser". But 500? A year? (or even more). And then add insanely tight tolerances - the checking and re checking adds labor costs. At $5000 a boat, 500 is $2.5 million.

We are talking hiring staff, overheads, stock and more. 

The moment you realize what's involved, $2.5 million starts sounding reasonable. It's possible that you can do it for less, depending on location, but you would be ill advised to operate it all on a shoestring.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The talk was of $2.5m start up costs. If it costs that much to enter the game things truly are screwed up. 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, sosoomii said:

The talk was of $2.5m start up costs. If it costs that much to enter the game things truly are screwed up. 

Have you been in business before sosoomii? 

I confirm that we are indeed talking about start up. 

The reason to mention the number of boats is that you need to make the stock before you sell them, and get the money. The value of the stock is very important - and i admit that $5000 is likely to be inaccurate.

How much do you think it should cost?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Just now, sosoomii said:

Do you think it costs $2.5m to start building Solos, or Exocet Moths, or D Zeros?  

How much do you think it should cost?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

I’ve already answered this - an order of magnitude less. 

...and how much is that? 500K? $1M?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Maybe we are divided by a common language. An order of magnitude less than 2.5e6 would be 2.5e5 ie $250,000. Less for a small builder, more if you wanted a large factory. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The gold is moving East and so is the sailing. He who owns the gold makes the..... How do you say starboard in Mandarin?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I thought I read that the ILCA came very close to approving a Chinese builder a few years ago, ironically at the behest of LP.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Old Yeller said:

The gold is moving East and so is the sailing. He who owns the gold makes the..... How do you say starboard in Mandarin?

I have found that when racing Lasers against sailors who don't speak English and whose language I don't know, the best thing to do is to shout "GAAAAAARRGH" at the top of my voice whenever they come anywhere near me.  They soon realize that I am just some crazy old geezer whose behavior in any give situation will be totally unpredictable, even assuming he is in control of where he is going which is doubtful at times.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, tillerman said:

I have found that when racing Lasers against sailors who don't speak English and whose language I don't know, the best thing to do is to shout "GAAAAAARRGH" at the top of my voice whenever they come anywhere near me.  They soon realize that I am just some crazy old geezer whose behavior in any give situation will be totally unpredictable, even assuming he is in control of where he is going which is doubtful at times.

The sight of my yellow hull and mop of grey hair normally does the trick.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
48 minutes ago, tillerman said:

They soon realize that I am just some crazy old geezer whose behavior in any give situation will be totally unpredictable, even assuming he is in control of where he is going which is doubtful at times.

Doesn't this apply to a certain individual associated with LP?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

The gold is moving East and so is the sailing. He who owns the gold makes the..... How do you say starboard in Mandarin?

God I love this place! 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, sosoomii said:

Maybe we are divided by a common language. An order of magnitude less than 2.5e6 would be 2.5e5 ie $250,000. Less for a small builder, more if you wanted a large factory. 

(Apologies sosoomii re the order of magnitude. I disregarded an order of magnitude being one tenth as I didn't think anyone would put forward such a low figure, so I though it most likely you were speaking colloquially with some other meaning. My bad.)

Here are some of my ramblings about the costs of setting up, from the top of my head:

  • The first build of ten (required for checking quality) would easily eat up $250K (and then some).
  • General production, with sales in the region of 500 per year, means building up stocks. Its probable that there will be initially higher numbers, then it will settle into a seasonal 'boom and bust' production cycle with high peaks and low troughs annually - with higher peaks for major contests. The strategy is likely to be to build a more consistent number the year round, so issues around quality (think the recruitment and training costs) are mitigated. (The alternative is to have seasonal workers and a larger production area, requiring more molds etc.) You could expect to have around 150 boats in stock (which represents three months), possibly more. That cost is substantial and needs to be financed. (Additionally, the strategy chosen makes a material difference to the physical setup). 
  • Molds (which wear out over time), storage racks etc need to be constructed. (If it were up to me I would have at least one additional mold in storage, ready to swap in so that repairs to the mold can be made without compromising production.)
  • The cost of the building (usually leased). Space is needed for several boats being built at once; the storage required for materials; and an area for storing an estimated 150 boats (for my 500 boats per year scenario).
  • Production labor requires expertise, as the Laser isn't just building any old boat where improvements can be made to the boat on the fly, we are replicating a specific construction method which has tight tolerances. There are one off expert labor costs for setting it up, then measuring by the class measurer (more costs).

...and on it goes.

$2.5 million to set up Laser production sounds like a very reasonable amount to me - if it is to be done in a way that is set up to last. If you tried to do it on $250K, in my view the venture would fail.

(If I have made any mistakes above, corrections are welcome!) I have only ever visited a Laser factory once, and it was a long time ago.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

This thread dedicated to Bruce is even better than lawnmower jokes.

 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
23 minutes ago, LMI said:

This thread dedicated to Bruce is even better than lawnmower jokes.

 

 

I know where to look for pile-on anarchy.

.Keep the personal attack BS in the children's subforums, plz.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

(Apologies sosoomii re the order of magnitude. I disregarded an order of magnitude being one tenth as I didn't think anyone would put forward such a low figure, so I though it most likely you were speaking colloquially with some other meaning. My bad.)

Here are some of my ramblings about the costs of setting up, from the top of my head:

  • The first build of ten (required for checking quality) would easily eat up $250K (and then some).
  • General production, with sales in the region of 500 per year, means building up stocks. Its probable that there will be initially higher numbers, then it will settle into a seasonal 'boom and bust' production cycle with high peaks and low troughs annually - with higher peaks for major contests. The strategy is likely to be to build a more consistent number the year round, so issues around quality (think the recruitment and training costs) are mitigated. (The alternative is to have seasonal workers and a larger production area, requiring more molds etc.) You could expect to have around 150 boats in stock (which represents three months), possibly more. That cost is substantial and needs to be financed. (Additionally, the strategy chosen makes a material difference to the physical setup). 
  • Molds (which wear out over time), storage racks etc need to be constructed. (If it were up to me I would have at least one additional mold in storage, ready to swap in so that repairs to the mold can be made without compromising production.)
  • The cost of the building (usually leased). Space is needed for several boats being built at once; the storage required for materials; and an area for storing an estimated 150 boats (for my 500 boats per year scenario).
  • Production labor requires expertise, as the Laser isn't just building any old boat where improvements can be made to the boat on the fly, we are replicating a specific construction method which has tight tolerances. There are one off expert labor costs for setting it up, then measuring by the class measurer (more costs).

...and on it goes.

$2.5 million to set up Laser production sounds like a very reasonable amount to me - if it is to be done in a way that is set up to last. If you tried to do it on $250K, in my view the venture would fail.

(If I have made any mistakes above, corrections are welcome!) I have only ever visited a Laser factory once, and it was a long time ago.

More than one set of moulds will be required to build 500 boats per year ~ I would factor on 4/5 sets, including 4/5 sets of hull / deck joining jigs. 

With all the developments taking place on spars and sail plans why not develop the (non foiling) appendages ? 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 hours ago, Wess said:

God I love this place! 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
58 minutes ago, Southern Cross said:

More than one set of moulds will be required to build 500 boats per year ~ I would factor on 4/5 sets, including 4/5 sets of hull / deck joining jigs. 

With all the developments taking place on spars and sail plans why not develop the (non foiling) appendages ? 

 

200 +_ work days in a year
40 full speed work weeks is a reasonable plan that allows plenty of time for facilities maintenance, special projects, vacations, and we are building other things right now. 

turning the production line molds 4 times a week is a nice relaxed pace. One set out for repairs is a nice convenience that allows time for proper cleaning, maintenance and application of good mold release. 
Pushing  the above numbers is possible but can easily lead to maintenance and quality issues. 
500 boats per year Can probably me done well with five or six sets of tooling. 
 

A properly designed assembly press used with properly designed adhesives should easily turn four boats  a day . 

My lunch napkin estimates tell me a successful Laser manufacturer needs to tie up only about 3 to 5 million dollars and have about a ten million dollar credit line available. 
 

I think the business could turn a nice profit paying off its original investment in five to seven years. 

The problem is the Laser building business is not free to operate as it pleases. Access to a major portion of the Laser market is controlled by the whims of ILCA and WS.  The manufacturer’s risk is simply insufficiently controllable to safely and reasonably invest the time and funds. 
 

 

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

https://www.laser2020.com/?fbclid=IwAR1MFarhlGRnPjczL83DDKkJksW7JTBWLpG_iCU3MlgCK-ZCDBQz-cBpgRo

This will be one of the biggest sailing events held in Australia and coincides with a number of World Championships being held in other sailing classes, in the lead up to the Olympic Games in Japan where Laser sailing is an Olympic event.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
44 minutes ago, bill4 said:

In the last federal filing they submitted in the UK, LPE call themselves a Dormant Company.

Agreed Bill, it is curious. Maybe LP is now based elsewhere with a different name? (eg, Portugal?)

Here's what Bill is talking about, without the link.

image.png.cc0aae6f0cb0f31616ee1cfc78e95ccd.png

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

you can just look on the UK corporate search site.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Takes me back looking at that list of directors. Names like Tim Coventry and Chris Nicols, good men who ran a good company . Shame there are not men of that statue involved with LPE now . Not that LPE has existed or owned/built anything in years .

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The Laser Performance Website is now labelled  Copyright © 2020 LaserPerformance LLC. 
Laser Performance LLC appears to have been set up in the UK in 2018 as a subsidiary of a US company. We've discussed this before.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
On 1/11/2020 at 4:07 PM, Dex Sawash said:

 

I know where to look for pile-on anarchy.

.Keep the personal attack BS in the children's subforums, plz.

I tempted fate and decided to take a look.  OMG.  That Bruce thread leads you to a Brexit thread and to a Greta thread and on and on.  I tend to stick to CA, DA, and MA but I was surprised to find all this stuff in SA (not PA).  Anyway what is really funny is that you can find many of the usual suspect there.  Even IPL much to my surprise!?!  My impression they are all arguing simply for argument sake (OK, some of them are trolling and its pretty funny) but I will stick to arguing about Lasers... or whatever its called. On that note and in terms of their request for questions...

Hey ILCA what the heck are you calling the boat???  Is it still the Laser class or what?  Because I was wondering if I should go out and secure the rights to "IILCACA" in an attempt to stop your evil plans!?  Or maybe the EUILCA folks already did that...

Anyway I am just glad that Andey and Tracey don't run the Snipe class or that boat would end up looking like a 505! 

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
43 minutes ago, Wess said:

I tempted fate and decided to take a look.  OMG.  That Bruce thread leads you to a Brexit thread and to a Greta thread and on and on.  I tend to stick to CA, DA, and MA but I was surprised to find all this stuff in SA (not PA).  Anyway what is really funny is that you can find many of the usual suspect there.  Even IPL much to my surprise!?!  My impression they are all arguing simply for argument sake (OK, some of them are trolling and its pretty funny) but I will stick to arguing about Lasers... or whatever its called. On that note and in terms of their request for questions...

Hey ILCA what the heck are you calling the boat???  Is it still the Laser class or what?  Because I was wondering if I should go out and secure the rights to "IILCACA" in an attempt to stop your evil plans!?  Or maybe the EUILCA folks already did that...

Anyway I am just glad that Andey and Tracey don't run the Snipe class or that boat would end up looking like a 505! 

It's all caca to me.
 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, tillerman said:

It's all caca to me.
 

Like me you are hooked.  You can never escape the lure of the Laser. The Aero is just your cheap silly little mid-life fling.  You will be back to your one true love.  I just wonder what they will be calling it and what it will look like by then.  Hopefully nothing like a Firefly.  It would be sad to be stuck sailing that POS... all by one's self with nobody to play with (couldn't resist.. he is like a puppet on a string  :lol:).

  • Downvote 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 hours ago, JimC said:

The Laser Performance Website is now labelled  Copyright © 2020 LaserPerformance LLC. 
Laser Performance LLC appears to have been set up in the UK in 2018 as a subsidiary of a US company. We've discussed this before.

Is LLC a typical naming convention for a UK subsidiary of a US company?  I have never come across "LLC" on one of those.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Is LLC a typical naming convention for a UK subsidiary of a US company?  I have never come across "LLC" on one of those.

 

Like most anything LP its a cluster.  They use that same language if you click on their UK, ROW or US site but its not on the corporate umbrella (guessing by mistake).

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Is LLC a typical naming convention for a UK subsidiary of a US company?  I have never come across "LLC" on one of those.

Anyone? I'm not clued up enough about this stuff to offer a useful opinion, although I don't recall seeing many LLCs.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Limited Liability Company -- LLC

Used in USA for sure; doubt it's the same thing in the UK.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

I tempted fate and decided to take a look.  OMG.  That Bruce thread leads you to a Brexit thread and to a Greta thread and on and on.  I tend to stick to CA, DA, and MA but I was surprised to find all this stuff in SA (not PA).  Anyway what is really funny is that you can find many of the usual suspect there.  Even IPL much to my surprise!?!  My impression they are all arguing simply for argument sake (OK, some of them are trolling and its pretty funny) but I will stick to arguing about Lasers... or whatever its called. On that note and in terms of their request for questions...

Hey ILCA what the heck are you calling the boat???  Is it still the Laser class or what?  Because I was wondering if I should go out and secure the rights to "IILCACA" in an attempt to stop your evil plans!?  Or maybe the EUILCA folks already did that...

Anyway I am just glad that Andey and Tracey don't run the Snipe class or that boat would end up looking like a 505! 

Here's a quote from Tracy to me this morning vie e-mail regarding C rigs, (I e-mailed with Andy as well):

"I do want to state, as Andy has, unequivocally in the strongest term that there is NO plan to replace the 4.7 with the C5 rig. The Standard is the men's singlehanded dinghy in the Olympics, the Radial is the women's singlehanded dinghy in the Olympics, the 4.7 is THE youth pathway boat to both of those classes. Further, we expect the Standard and Radial to be in the Olympics for several more cycles so there would be no plan to replace the 4.7 and wreck that pathway. It makes -zero- sense."

He does continue to state the C rigs are a commercial venture and should volume pick up then they could be recognized as a separate fleet for a regatta class.  "The market can decide" is another quote.

Regarding class votes.  No vote because NO equipment is being replaced/changed.  This is an addition/option sailors can choose to or not to purchase.

Official information release to come through the ILCA site.

That is all.

 

 

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 minutes ago, BNorth said:

Limited Liability Company -- LLC

 

Um thanks.

I have formed UK limited companies before; they are named LTD.  I was asking the English guy if he'd heard of a UK based 'LLC' before, 'cause I don't think that is allowed.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
14 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Here's a quote from Tracy to me this morning vie e-mail regarding C rigs, (I e-mailed with Andy as well):

"I do want to state, as Andy has, unequivocally in the strongest term that there is NO plan to replace the 4.7 with the C5 rig. The Standard is the men's singlehanded dinghy in the Olympics, the Radial is the women's singlehanded dinghy in the Olympics, the 4.7 is THE youth pathway boat to both of those classes. Further, we expect the Standard and Radial to be in the Olympics for several more cycles so there would be no plan to replace the 4.7 and wreck that pathway. It makes -zero- sense."

He does continue to state the C rigs are a commercial venture and should volume pick up then they could be recognized as a separate fleet for a regatta class.  "The market can decide" is another quote.

Regarding class votes.  No vote because NO equipment is being replaced/changed.  This is an addition/option sailors can choose to or not to purchase.

Official information release to come through the ILCA site.

That is all.

 

 

Well that seems kinda unresponsive to what its called LOL and I am more curious to see the list of fess Bill promised (and how it matches up with the one I have).  But serious question relative to the highlighted section above...

How do you think ILCA would react if a bunch of Master sailors turned up at an ILCA event with generic sails... would they be allowed in as a separate fleet ala what he suggests they would do with the C rigs?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
20 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Um thanks.

I have formed UK limited companies before; they are named LTD.  I was asking the English guy if he'd heard of a UK based 'LLC' before, 'cause I don't think that is allowed.

I think probably subsidiary was the wrong word. Companies House is talking about a UK *establishment* of an overseas company. I expect there's a vital difference, but I have not the slightest clue what that might be.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/FC035491/filing-history

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
35 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Is LLC a typical naming convention for a UK subsidiary of a US company?  I have never come across "LLC" on one of those.

 

No, you’re right; private limited companies in the UK are abbreviated Ltd or Limited. 
 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
16 minutes ago, JimC said:

I think probably subsidiary was the wrong word. Companies House is talking about a UK *establishment* of an overseas company. I expect there's a vital difference, but I have not the slightest clue what that might be.

https://beta.companieshouse.gov.uk/company/FC035491/filing-history

Thanks!  Actually learned something legal today!  

So there is no UK-based entity called LP currently in operation. Just a foreign established office of the US LLC, which is a single member LLC owned by Quarter Moon.

That is the same as a FBR (foreign business registration) required by states here when corps from other states or countries open an office or establish some kind of presence.

 

I will opine that that UK registration is deficient in several areas.  Also that my law firm and LP use the same Delaware agent.

 

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
32 minutes ago, Wess said:

Well that seems kinda unresponsive to what its called LOL and I am more curious to see the list of fess Bill promised (and how it matches up with the one I have).  But serious question relative to the highlighted section above...

How do you think ILCA would react if a bunch of Master sailors turned up at an ILCA event with generic sails... would they be allowed in as a separate fleet ala what he suggests they would do with the C rigs?

So to keep things equal/even.  No- to the generic sails because, well they're generic and by nature all different from one another in some way.

There's only one maker of the "C rig" currently.  Now- just because there will be no rule vote does not mean the class can't implement a new rule/s for the C rig.  A vote is needed if something existing is changed or replaced.  Something new, (like the radial sail was) does not need a vote.  So, the C rig can be managed to an OD principal. IMO.

To that I would speculate ILCA is working with the C rig designer/maker to ensure it can be controlled to an OD standard.  Again, all of this is based on IF one of these rigs actually takes off and has numbers to create and sustain a different/additional class of Laser.  The "market" will determine that not ILCA.  

 

 

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
17 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

So to keep things equal/even.  No- to the generic sails because, well they're generic and by nature all different from one another in some way.

There's only one maker of the "C rig" currently.  Now- just because there will be no rule vote does not mean the class can't implement a new rule/s for the C rig.  A vote is needed if something existing is changed or replaced.  Something new, (like the radial sail was) does not need a vote.  So, the C rig can be managed to an OD principal. IMO.

To that I would speculate ILCA is working with the C rig designer/maker to ensure it can be controlled to an OD standard.  Again, all of this is based on IF one of these rigs actually takes off and has numbers to create and sustain a different/additional class of Laser.  The "market" will determine that not ILCA.  

 

 

Any OA can run a race, races  with the new C rig or the fake sails. It just can not be an ILCA sanctioned event. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Any OA can run a race, races  with the new C rig or the fake sails. It just can not be an ILCA sanctioned event. 

He appears to be saying it CAN be an ILCA sanctioned event for the C rig.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The closest you are going to this is the Aero and RS. Hoping for anything else is just not going to happen I am afraid. No one else will risk the start up costs or have the infrastructure. 

 

The super inexpensive laser is just a myth. A laser is no more expensive now than it was in 1970s if you apply inflation. What’s changed is people’s disposable income and the amount of free time they have to spend away from their families .

And all the chatter in the world in the online world will not change these last two things.

 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Design a boat that peoples can make themselves.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

...and I am more curious to see the list of fess Bill promised...

Pretty loose with the word "promised", there Wess (rhymes with fess above). Let's look at what I actually wrote:

"I sent an email to ILCA and got a reply right away from Tracy Usher. They are putting together an article "...with the intent to publish any/all fees/etc. and explain what they are meant to be used for etc...".  Tracy told me they are striving to have that out next week, but there a couple other articles to come ahead of it. (I know you will have trouble resisting a comment on time...) "

Here is hoping the two in the queue get posted and we see the list of fess this wekk. 

Note I did say I would ask ILCA and let you know the reply, all of which took about 3 1/2 hours. Sorry that took so long. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, VWAP said:

Any OA can run a race, races  with the new C rig or the fake sails. It just can not be an ILCA sanctioned event. 

Very true.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Wess said:

He appears to be saying it CAN be an ILCA sanctioned event for the C rig.

If the C rig takes off I'm under the impression the ILCA will stand behind it, recognize it as part of the ILCA family and stand behind organized events.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
24 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Pretty loose with the word "promised", there Wess (rhymes with fess above). Let's look at what I actually wrote:

"I sent an email to ILCA and got a reply right away from Tracy Usher. They are putting together an article "...with the intent to publish any/all fees/etc. and explain what they are meant to be used for etc...".  Tracy told me they are striving to have that out next week, but there a couple other articles to come ahead of it. (I know you will have trouble resisting a comment on time...) "

Here is hoping the two in the queue get posted and we see the list of fess this wekk. 

Note I did say I would ask ILCA and let you know the reply, all of which took about 3 1/2 hours. Sorry that took so long. 

 

 

Exactly.  No one is playing hide the salami here.  It's just a matter of details and time.  Since everyone has "real jobs" getting the official updates together takes time.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Now- just because there will be no rule vote does not mean the class can't implement a new rule/s for the C rig. 

Come on. Seriously?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

If PSA sell C rigs does that disqualify them from being ILCA builders?  I thought ILCA proposed a rule that you couldn’t build ILCA dinghies if you also build (sell?) in-plaqued ones?  

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, sosoomii said:

If PSA sell C rigs does that disqualify them from being ILCA builders?  I thought ILCA proposed a rule that you could build ILCA dinghies if you also build (sell?) in-plaqued ones?  

They make up the rules and the fees as they go along.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

Exactly.  No one is playing hide the salami here.  It's just a matter of details and time.  Since everyone has "real jobs" getting the official updates together takes time.

I thought this was Eric’s real job?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
9 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Come on. Seriously?

read the class constitution

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

How long before we can do this at home? Or at least order a hull from a local 3D printer? Find a way around the current builder, dealer, consumer model.

https://www.3dnatives.com/en/3d-printed-boat-university-of-maine-161020195/

Edited by Old Yeller
Add content
  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites