Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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36 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

It's not what he's getting, rather the pursuit of what he hopes to get. (Who said it had to be rational?)

Anyhow, after he was shown to have made factual errors, he has mostly pulled his head in.

Since you're digging, let us know if you find anything. I kind of came to the conclusion it wasn't worth the effort.

By golly.. there is still hope for you!!!

 

Are these boats properly stickered for ILCA sanctioned competition?? 

A5521777-E003-4D00-90B6-0521B5FC8209.jpeg

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I responded to this LP Page Facebook post with a question:

I asked if the charter boats would have the ILCA stickers Which the Association considers necessary for participation.

**My comment is no longer visible in the thread 

 

B28B4662-0E07-46C8-AC05-A9F6443949B1.jpeg

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Fun fact: On Nov 23 in his blog JPK stated,  " ... the Laser class has asked a UK-based audit firm - PKF Francis Clark - to certify the vote."  That's true, but what's interesting is that, other than 2 people in the ILCA office, nobody knew the name of the audit firm, including everyone else on the World Council.  At the meeting on the 23rd the WC was shown a copy of the audit letter from PKF, verifying their audit of the vote. So it's quite incredible that JPK somehow knew the name of the audit firm on the same day the WC was informed of this (still at the time) confidential information. It's almost as if he received the info in real time during the meeting. Curiouser and curiouser.  

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........or maybe the dude just takes a different position on some of this. Being European, it makes sense that his bias would run in that direction. It is possible (is it not?) for reasonable people to look at this mess and see things differently. I definitely appreciate his opposition to the new rigs, and the information he has put out on the 4.7 and radial has been helpful as my son moves out of the Opti. 

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1 minute ago, Old Yeller said:

........or maybe the dude just takes a different position on some of this. Being European, it makes sense that his bias would run in that direction. It is possible (is it not?) for reasonable people to look at this mess and see things differently. I definitely appreciate his opposition to the new rigs, and the information he has put out on the 4.7 and radial has been helpful as my son moves out of the Opti. 

I'm not so confident that most Europeans support all of the positions of the EurILCA's president, though JPK certainly appears to. :) 

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8 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he writes like he learned english from reading Trump tweets

The irony!

The xenophobia on this thread is disturbing.  

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11 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

he's not getting power, money or influence from his blog, so what else could be motivating him?

Doesn't the Internet demonstrates handily that there is no cause or conspiracy theory, no matter how irrational, how pointless, how plain dumb, that you cannot find a bunch of people to support enthusiastically and aggressively. That being the case it's only necessary to find the right useful idiots and encourage them, and you can have 'independant' advocates for almost anything... 

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12 hours ago, aroy210677 said:

Fun fact: On Nov 23 in his blog JPK stated,  " ... the Laser class has asked a UK-based audit firm - PKF Francis Clark - to certify the vote."  That's true, but what's interesting is that, other than 2 people in the ILCA office, nobody knew the name of the audit firm, including everyone else on the World Council.  At the meeting on the 23rd the WC was shown a copy of the audit letter from PKF, verifying their audit of the vote. So it's quite incredible that JPK somehow knew the name of the audit firm on the same day the WC was informed of this (still at the time) confidential information. It's almost as if he received the info in real time during the meeting. Curiouser and curiouser.  

Who is the mole on the World Council? Sounds like a case for George Smiley!
 

 

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13 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

I responded to this LP Page Facebook post with a question:

I asked if the charter boats would have the ILCA stickers Which the Association considers necessary for participation.

**My comment is no longer visible in the thread 

 

B28B4662-0E07-46C8-AC05-A9F6443949B1.jpeg

Hey Mon.  Happy Holidays!  And uh...

... there are enough idiotic conspiracy theories flying around so I thought you might want to know... that you are getting old and forgetful.  You put your comment in their Nov 26 post - and its still there - not their Nov 21 post. That's why you didn't see it.  Not that they will ever answer or give you a straight answer. 

I see ILCA is now talking about end of 2020 for new builders to be on line.  Good grief that is certainly "soon"... like they said MORE THAN 250 DAYS AGO!!  Give me my rum Tracey!!

The EurILCA implied threats are funny.  If European sailors followed EurILCA's lead the vote would have been different.  It wasn't.  Get over it.  Start a new club class.  maybe it flies maybe it don't but my gosh sh*t or et off the pot already!

Cheers,

Bill C (not really)

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On 11/22/2019 at 4:48 AM, JMP said:

Hopefully this is a bit better :D

snip.thumb.JPG.e47d473dbd56444f1bef4403115c1e2d.JPG

Wow.......Chris really wrote this?

IT doesn't pass any kind of fact check.

LP did not start any "litigation" vs PSA. Looking through all the Laser legal filings LP has only filed motions in defense and counter claims to suits that were started by BKI and Global Sailing (PSA's sister company)

Rastegaar does not sound like a very nice person, but the reality is that the litigation originated from Global Sailing.

He is right about one thing though. The full story has never really been told. While it would have been fascinating to hear it 3 years ago, the rant fest has frankly become boring and I think the audience numbers are declining.

I heard from reliable sources that even Tiller and Wess are contemplating switching from the watching Season 7 of the Laser Debacle to Season 3 of The Crown. 

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9 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I heard from reliable sources that even Tiller and Wess are contemplating switching from the watching Season 7 of the Laser Debacle to Season 3 of The Crown. 

Ha ha! I can walk and chew gum. Currently enjoying both The Irishman (broken down into 45 minute chunks) and Tinker Laser Sailor Spy. Pretty sure Jimmy Hoffa is going to get whacked but I have no idea who the mole at the highest levels of Laser sailing really is.

 

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27 minutes ago, Wess said:

Hey Mon.  Happy Holidays!  And uh...

... there are enough idiotic conspiracy theories flying around so I thought you might want to know... that you are getting old and forgetful.  You put your comment in their Nov 26 post - and its still there - not their Nov 21 post. That's why you didn't see it.  Not that they will ever answer or give you a straight answer. 

They replied to me online when I asked about the current & future availability of plaqued boats for retail (post 4705).

41 minutes ago, Wess said:

The EurILCA implied threats are funny.  If European sailors followed EurILCA's lead the vote would have been different.  It wasn't.  Get over it.  Start a new club class.  maybe it flies maybe it don't but my gosh sh*t or et off the pot already!

Surely that's the worry? They might split off the European membership, approve LP as a builder and then go back to WS and point out that they speak for the majority of the class and have a good working relationship with the biggest builder and owner of the trademark... bearing in mind the Olympic Class is the Laser, not the Torch/ILCA etc. For all I know (not very much, as I daresay someone will be kind enough to point out shortly!) it might be easier for EurILCA to take over as official class representatives to WS than for ILCA to certify new builders...

 Whilst I agree with Bruce's assertion that EurILCA doesn't have unmitigated support in Europe, there are a fair number of people who don't see LP as the Bad Guys in this shitfest, and don't welcome ILCA cosying up with PSA.

 Perspective: The mess looks ugly from all angles but which sores appear to be the most unpleasant depends on where you are looking from (and on how deep you are able and prepared to investigate).

Cheers,

               W.

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At this stage, I imagine that the sailors just want to go sailing.  Mostly I imagine the Europeans are confused why LP is not immediately approved as a builder and then other builders can be appointed on their respective merits. ( I havent seen any explanation from the Class) The class has approved the removal of the requirement of the trademark, so PSA can sell their boats in the USA and LP can sell their boats in Australia.  Let them get on with it.  The job of the ILCA is to make sure that the boats from any approved factory are absolutely identical, so the builders and their respective distributors can only compete on price and service.

If Dave Clarke and anyone else wants to enter as a competitor in a price driven commodity product market because he thinks he can drive a low cost/ low overhead / low margin business model in a profitable manner.....then he should be allowed to (provided he makes an identical boat). Many successful small  manufacturers have disrupted a market with lower prices and more efficient and cost effective distribution.....but it is hard in the recreational boat market. Its not a business model I would choose, but if there is a profit to be made,capital and labor will flow there.

Gradually the most efficient competitors will win ....and within 5 years, there will be one or at most two builders.

Meanwhile, Netflix has bought Tiller's pitch of Tinker Laser Sailor Spy. Dont expect it to be on your screens any time soon....the script has been worked on for 6 years and the end is nowhere in sight.

 

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

what is?

Having a dig at a non-native speakers English whilst comparing him to Trump.  It strikes me that Trump is the kind of guy who would belittle someone’s thoughts by criticising their English, so your comment was Trump-like whilst simultaneously comparing him to Trump.  It’s deep, man. 

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Are the Offered LP Charter boats for upcoming FloridA regattas properly stickered for ILCA  sanctioned events? 

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At a recent update from our region's World Council member at one of our district events, they mentioned that 'one of the builders is in a lot of trouble with respect to compliance with the LCMA'. 

Any guesses as to who that might be? I'd stilly hypothesize that this is the reason LP is yet to be approved; the WC member didn't name the builder. 

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1 hour ago, sosoomii said:

Having a dig at a non-native speakers English whilst comparing him to Trump.  It strikes me that Trump is the kind of guy who would belittle someone’s thoughts by criticising their English, so your comment was Trump-like whilst simultaneously comparing him to Trump.  It’s deep, man. 

Pretty deep, but not accurate.  I didn't belittle anyone's thoughts - I belittled someone's argumentative techniques: Citing rumor and innuendo as 'fact' and dismissing fact as 'propaganda'.  It would not be surprising to see the Belgcanadian characterize LPs removal as a builder 'a witch hunt!!!!!"

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13 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

At a recent update from our region's World Council member at one of our district events, they mentioned that 'one of the builders is in a lot of trouble with respect to compliance with the LCMA'. 

Any guesses as to who that might be? I'd stilly hypothesize that this is the reason LP is yet to be approved; the WC member didn't name the builder. 

When a builder sells non class legal components, that's a breach of the LCMA right?  From memory that was one of the ILCA's gripes with LP when they were still an approved builder

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29 minutes ago, greenwhiteblack said:

At a recent update from our region's World Council member at one of our district events, they mentioned that 'one of the builders is in a lot of trouble with respect to compliance with the LCMA'. 

Any guesses as to who that might be? I'd stilly hypothesize that this is the reason LP is yet to be approved; the WC member didn't name the builder. 

I'd classify this as 110% horse shit.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/11/29/2019-ilca-world-council-meeting/

Just the facts please.

 

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What gets discussed behind the scenes or when the mics are off rarely makes to the official press release, so don't be naive ;)

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Tis a witch hunt.  They are all hunting to make more money and have more control of the game to change it (to make more money) rather than to keep, promote, support and build the game as it exists now.

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

I'd classify this as 110% horse shit.

http://www.laserinternational.org/blog/2019/11/29/2019-ilca-world-council-meeting/

Just the facts please.

 

Do you really think they'd tell us 'LP has been building non-compliant boats, and since we haven't been able to inspect them for three years, there may be thousands of boats which weren't built properly'? 

Of course not. Just like the PSA 'breach', it will be kept quiet until a party in the know exposes it. What does our region's WC member stand to gain by lying about a manufacturer having compliance issues? 

Going forward, ILCA needs to be far more transparent with compliance issues and spend more money implementing more frequent factory inspections; especially with new manufacturers coming on board. 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Tis a witch hunt.  They are all hunting to make more money and have more control of the game to change it (to make more money) rather than to keep, promote, support and build the game as it exists now.

In a shrinking game, there isn't a "more money" path...

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

Tis a witch hunt.  They are all hunting to make more money and have more control of the game to change it (to make more money) rather than to keep, promote, support and build the game as it exists now.

In a shrinking game, there isn't a "more money" path...

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17 hours ago, IPLore said:

 Mostly I imagine the Europeans are confused why LP is not immediately approved as a builder and then other builders can be appointed on their respective merits. ( I havent seen any explanation from the Class)

My utterly uninformed guess is that there very little dispute on actually building the boats, and a great deal of dispute on contract terms, exit clauses and the like. In its most successful days relationships between class, builders and designer were controlled by a mesh of interacting contracts. To my mind the loss of the design owner part, and the apparent inability of US law to enforce the design owner contracts has created a gaping hole in that structure. Add to that all the complications caused by prospective multiple builders and I suspect contract negotiations will be/are being long and complicated. But that's just a guess.

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9 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

In a shrinking game, there isn't a "more money" path...

 

8 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

In a shrinking game, there isn't a "more money" path...

Saying it twice doesn't make slowed growth the same as shrinking.  Its easy to cherry pick numbers to make almost any case but overall its fair to say that Laser sailing is doing pretty darn well compared to the majority of the sport. But beyond that you need to think more and look behind the curtain.  Maybe it ain't about the boat.  Maybe its about controlling and selling and making money off of what goes in the boat.

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12 minutes ago, JimC said:

My utterly uninformed guess is that there very little dispute on actually building the boats, and a great deal of dispute on contract terms, exit clauses and the like. In its most successful days relationships between class, builders and designer were controlled by a mesh of interacting contracts. To my mind the loss of the design owner part, and the apparent inability of US law to enforce the design owner contracts has created a gaping hole in that structure. Add to that all the complications caused by prospective multiple builders and I suspect contract negotiations will be/are being long and complicated. But that's just a guess.

That's my thinking, too, though I infer that GWB thinks it's quite possible that there have been construction variations.

 IMHO, while I can see that that's quite possible in the absence of inspections, I don't think it's likely.  It just seems too contrived to me- there's no point building faster boats if you can't market them and cutting corners to build cheaper boats seems a high risk strategy, especially since there's already been a tiff about build variations with one of their competitors.

 LP's claim is that they lacked faith in ILCA's inspections, following the PSA mess... I'm not taking that at face value but I think it'd be important for them to be able to sustain the claim... and I'm also sceptical that there's enough value in the business to make it worth a lot of time & effort being invested in any sort of industrial espionage... Again, IMHO, it seems more likely that they backed off from the US market for commercial reasons than because they wanted to spite American sailors. I'm not saying that was the right course of action, just that it could well have been a result of commercial pressures, whether through external events or simply internal errors on their part. 

 We'll likely never know.  Personally, I don't have much trust in most of the organisations involved, especially the bigger players.

Cheers,

              W.

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9 minutes ago, WGWarburton said:

Personally, I don't have much trust in most of the organisations involved, especially the bigger players.

Cheers,

              W.

Word! Get Clean and Ed to do an article.  What was the word they used that got them in trouble; grifters?

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20 hours ago, IPLore said:

 Mostly I imagine the Europeans are confused why LP is not immediately approved as a builder and then other builders can be appointed on their respective merits.  

 

Who's the newly appointed builder?

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10 hours ago, martin.langhoff said:

In a shrinking game, there isn't a "more money" path...

A short term path to growth is to displace a competitor and get a bigger slice of the pie.  Granted it a decreasing pie, and it would only work for a few years at best.

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27 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Who's the newly appointed builder?

NOBODY!!  They have NONE.  That is why you owe me RUM!!!  Sorry; I couldn't resist.  :P

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1 minute ago, torrid said:

A short term path to growth is to displace a competitor and get a bigger slice of the pie.  Granted it a decreasing pie, and it would only work for a few years at best.

That is exactly what PSA did IMHO.  That LPE was stupid enough to walk into the trap and is equally greedy doesn't help. 

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15 hours ago, greenwhiteblack said:

Do you really think they'd tell us 'LP has been building non-compliant boats, and since we haven't been able to inspect them for three years, there may be thousands of boats which weren't built properly'?  What's the secret there?  I could see issue with the quality concerns alone, (supply and shipping incomplete boats) over the past few years. 

Of course not. Just like the PSA 'breach', it will be kept quiet until a party in the know exposes it. What does our region's WC member stand to gain by lying about a manufacturer having compliance issues? What do they stand to gain by creating uncertainty in the class they have volunteered to help?  I believe it's time for your WC member to step down from their position if he/she thinks there is value is spreading rumor, (true or untrue) about the class in which they have access to privileged information about.  It's their job to be a part of a solution not create problems or in this case a mountain out of a mole hill.

Going forward, ILCA needs to be far more transparent with compliance issues and spend more money implementing more frequent factory inspections; especially with new manufacturers coming on board. I believe we'll see more facility inspections.  I also believe "mild" compliance issues is a part of the game and one that is, (and should be) managed.  Bottom line is our class is still the largest and most successful OD class in history.  That hasn't come through mismanagement.  Sure there are issues and there always will be.  Name one perfectly run organization?  It's called life.  Problems happen and they get dealt with.  "Total transparency" sounds great, but in the end it's a fantasy and ultimately poor management to practice.  How well do you think countries would run if the CIA, NSA, FBI, MI6 or whatever kept the masses informed of every threat they encounter on a daily basis?  We'd all be sitting around doing nothing, wringing our hands worried about "what's going to happen next?!?"

 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Word! Get Clean and Ed to do an article.  What was the word they used that got them in trouble; grifters?

Easy!  I think even using that word gets you immediate exposure to a lawsuit!  

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15 minutes ago, torrid said:

A short term path to growth is to displace a competitor and get a bigger slice of the pie.  Granted it a decreasing pie, and it would only work for a few years at best.

That's my point exactly. And the maneuvering to displace that competitor accelerates the shrinkage so there isn't really a win.

We bashed this out some months ago on this very thread. Sad to see.

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16 minutes ago, martin.langhoff said:

That's my point exactly. And the maneuvering to displace that competitor accelerates the shrinkage so there isn't really a win.

We bashed this out some months ago on this very thread. Sad to see.

And, (assuming there is a shred of truth to the theory) the growth will be very temporary.  By the time PSA gets past the hump of building worlds boats and can start on retail boats an NA builder could be named. The availability and pricing from a more local supplier will likely shut down AUS imports just from a freight cost alone.  

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Think on this for a bit.  I am not going to out anybody but  number of folks who would/should know said that total Laser sold (annual) have dropped below 1000 as a result of this ILCA, WS, and builder idiocy.  I don't believe this (shocking if its true) but apparently LPE expects to make/sell more Sunfish than total annual Lasers from all builders. The Laser number stated was low but the Sunfish was high (>500).   Strange world we live in.  Good on Sunfish if its so.

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To us on this side of the pond the continued success of the sunfish is as surprising as it is amazing. It’s not the nicest thing to sail is it, but I do understand the draw of class racing. I suppose the nearest thing we have is the Solo class but the difference between a sunfish and a solo is night and day .

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Sunfish is about the only thing beside a Laser that I would go race if I was racing again. What I like is that they ain’t changing the game. A Sunfish is a Sunfish. The lateen rig is the lateen rig. Between new names and new rigs I bet you can’t even recognize a Laser in a few years.

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21 minutes ago, Wess said:

What I like is that they ain’t changing the game. A Sunfish is a Sunfish. The lateen rig is the lateen rig.

Hardest thing in the world is to leave well enough alone. 

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52 minutes ago, Wess said:

Sunfish is about the only thing beside a Laser that I would go race if I was racing again. What I like is that they ain’t changing the game. A Sunfish is a Sunfish. The lateen rig is the lateen rig. Between new names and new rigs I bet you can’t even recognize a Laser in a few years.

The Sunfish crowd "get it." They understand that the continued popularity of their class involves sticking to the one design principle. They went through some upgrades about 25-30 years ago bringing in new foils, new racing sail, better control systems etc. but since then there hasn't been any major change. Around here in New England they are still very popular as a racing class, with strong regatta attendance and an active frostbiting fleet in Barrington RI. If I ever get too old for RS Aero sailing I will probably go back to the Sunfish and see if I can qualify for some of those Sunfish Worlds in exotic locations like Bonaire and New Jersey. See you there @Wess.

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I will offer free rum to Wess and Tillerman if we ever get to sail Sunfish on the same course.

And no, it doesn't have to be a Worlds event....

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Does anybody know if the LP Lasers being offered for charter for the upcoming FloridA events have the necessary stickers to be welcome in ILCA sanctioned events?? 

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8 hours ago, WGWarburton said:

That's my thinking, too, though I infer that GWB thinks it's quite possible that there have been construction variations.

 IMHO, while I can see that that's quite possible in the absence of inspections, I don't think it's likely.  It just seems too contrived to me- there's no point building faster boats if you can't market them and cutting corners to build cheaper boats seems a high risk strategy, especially since there's already been a tiff about build variations with one of their competitors.

 LP's claim is that they lacked faith in ILCA's inspections, following the PSA mess... I'm not taking that at face value but I think it'd be important for them to be able to sustain the claim... and I'm also sceptical that there's enough value in the business to make it worth a lot of time & effort being invested in any sort of industrial espionage... Again, IMHO, it seems more likely that they backed off from the US market for commercial reasons than because they wanted to spite American sailors. I'm not saying that was the right course of action, just that it could well have been a result of commercial pressures, whether through external events or simply internal errors on their part. 

 We'll likely never know.  Personally, I don't have much trust in most of the organisations involved, especially the bigger players.

Cheers,

              W.

Despite LP bringing out the "Ice Blue" boats which were supposed to be built to match the PSA boats, anyone who has sailed both boats will tell you there's still obvious differences. Pre-Ice Blue, the PSA boats seemed to be weighted more towards the stern, or evenly distributed, whereas the LP boats were a bit more bow heavy. 

However, even with the Ice Blue boats, there is still definite differences in the transom angle/gudgeon placement. Ask any Aussie who's had to charter an LP boat at an event, and most of them will have had trouble with their tillers hitting the traveller cleat, as for some reason the tiller sits much lower on the LP boats than their usual PSA boats. I've heard quite a few people on the Olympic circuit citing this difference as the reason behind the speed of Aussie boats (read sailors), but I think that's just jealousy...

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In bringing on new builders, I'd go as far to suggest that ILCA add clauses to builders contracts whereby ILCA can instigate 'boat recalls' if an inspection finds errors in the build process. This will put pressure on builders to ensure they don't stray from the LCMA. I've purchased parts in the past which were manufactured out of spec, and they were immediately replaced free of charge, but I can't imagine any builder would do this for hulls without contractual obligations/pressure from ILCA. 

With that in mind, ILCA will need to use the additional fees collected from the new builders to bring on additional Technical Officers to perform more frequent factory inspections. As it is, I'm told Clive has a lot on managing 2/3 annual inspections of the current builders. 

Further, along with the threat of 'boat recalls' for LCMA violations, ILCA should be releasing a report on all factory inspections, to create the transparency needed to help prevent 'boat park rumours' about one manufacturer being better than the others. 

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25 minutes ago, Gouvernail said:

Does anybody know if the LP Lasers being offered for charter for the upcoming FloridA events have the necessary stickers to be welcome in ILCA sanctioned events?? 

I have no idea. At this point I feel like I need a full time fact checker, research assistant, and spy to follow  this drama. 

Edited by Old Yeller
Correction

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13 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

I have no idea. At this point I feel like I need a full time fact checker, research assistant, and spy to follow  this drama. 

Cue the lawnmower.

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3 minutes ago, torrid said:

Cue the lawnmower.

I arrived late to this SA party and missed the lawnmower joke. But I’ll get my research assistant on it......

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Canntt  = Ganntt = Lawnmower. Either IPL or Tiller coined it after some exceptional idiocy and it stuck.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Canntt  = Ganntt = Lawnmower. Either IPL or Tiller coined it after some exceptional idiocy and it stuck.

I can't claim credit for this one. I think it started because someone (maybe IPLore) got frustrated with Ganntt trying to argue about the law in a discussion of the Kirby-sues-everyone-in-Laser-world debacle, and said something along the lines of, "My lawnmower knows more about the law than you do." 
 

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6 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

I arrived late to this SA party and missed the lawnmower joke. But I’ll get my research assistant on it......

I honestly thought you were cracking a joke about the resident lawnmower.

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7 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Does anybody know if the LP Lasers being offered for charter for the upcoming FloridA events have the necessary stickers to be welcome in ILCA sanctioned events?? 

Anybody?? 

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On 12/4/2019 at 12:33 AM, IPLore said:

Wow.......Chris really wrote this?

IT doesn't pass any kind of fact check.

LP did not start any "litigation" vs PSA. Looking through all the Laser legal filings LP has only filed motions in defense and counter claims to suits that were started by BKI and Global Sailing (PSA's sister company)

Here is a very clear case of a little knowledge is dangerous. It depends on when you consider litigation started. For some reason, you seem to think that the first litigation was the move by BKI and Global Sailing. Can you tell me why you have chosen that bit of litigation as your start, because I know for a fact that LP instigated litigation before that particular set of filings. Clearly you don't realise that that the BKI/Global Sailing litigation was in retaliation to legal moves made on a number of occasions by LP and that BKI/Global Sailing considered their move as an end game to stop the "Rastegar" litigation problems.

 

Here are 2 key facts

  • Until Rastegar came along, the builders lived pretty much in harmony and worked together. (I have fond memories of the LP Tim Coventry days)
  • LP was the first builder/trademark owner to start litigation against other builders.

I really can't be bothered to dig out all the references and links, so if you want to ignore what I say, that's fine. After all, this is Anarchy where the truth is never allowed to get in the way of a good story.

 

Full disclosure - I know Chris well. I used to know the LPE people well. I have followed this over the years because it has impacted friends.The stress caused by what is going on has had a significant impact on the health of people I know. And yes, people on forums like this do not know the full story. I certainly don't and I have spoken directly to people who do, and wisely, even though I hope they trust me, I am not told everything as should be expected when litigation is involved.

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12 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Does anybody know if the LP Lasers being offered for charter for the upcoming FloridA events have the necessary stickers to be welcome in ILCA sanctioned events?? 

 

4 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Anybody?? 

Doesn’t matter. I can print you up a replica sticker easy. Just put it on yourself and nobody will know. Will sell them to you cheap!! :lol:

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13 hours ago, SimonN said:

Here is a very clear case of a little knowledge is dangerous. It depends on when you consider litigation started. For some reason, you seem to think that the first litigation was the move by BKI and Global Sailing. Can you tell me why you have chosen that bit of litigation as your start, because I know for a fact that LP instigated litigation before that particular set of filings. Clearly you don't realise that that the BKI/Global Sailing litigation was in retaliation to legal moves made on a number of occasions by LP and that BKI/Global Sailing considered their move as an end game to stop the "Rastegar" litigation problems.

 

Here are 2 key facts

  • Until Rastegar came along, the builders lived pretty much in harmony and worked together. (I have fond memories of the LP Tim Coventry days)
  • LP was the first builder/trademark owner to start litigation against other builders.

I really can't be bothered to dig out all the references and links, so if you want to ignore what I say, that's fine. After all, this is Anarchy where the truth is never allowed to get in the way of a good story.

 

Full disclosure - I know Chris well. I used to know the LPE people well. I have followed this over the years because it has impacted friends.The stress caused by what is going on has had a significant impact on the health of people I know. And yes, people on forums like this do not know the full story. I certainly don't and I have spoken directly to people who do, and wisely, even though I hope they trust me, I am not told everything as should be expected when litigation is involved.

When it comes to legal filings, it is very easy to separate fact from fiction.

You are correct that I think this litigation commenced with BKI filing suit against LP (and associated entities) , World Sailing and the ILCA.   I know this because whenever anyone files a suit, it is recorded and available online. I use Westlaw. There are others.  Westlaw allows you to search for any suit filed by any plaintiff in the USA, Canada, EU, UK and Australia.   You state that LP has started litigation vs the other builders (PSA or the japanese builder)  I am afraid I am going to have to bother you to dig up the references and links.......because the data does not support your claim.

 

Dont get me wrong.....I am certainly no fan of Rastegar, who certainly seems to have contributed to the turmoil, but I have an orderly mind and like to keep the facts straight.

 

 

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13 hours ago, SimonN said:

Here are 2 key facts

  • Until Rastegar came along, the builders lived pretty much in harmony and worked together. (I have fond memories of the LP Tim Coventry days)
  • LP was the first builder/trademark owner to start litigation against other builders.

I really can't be bothered to dig out all the references and links,

You dont need to dig up all the references, but maybe dig up the year, plaintiff name and  jurisdiction.

Maybe I missed something?

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2 hours ago, IPLore said:

You dont need to dig up all the references, but maybe dig up the year, plaintiff name and  jurisdiction.

Maybe I missed something?

Not maybe. You did. I really cannot be bothered to spend hours trying to find stuff I don't know how to find but here are some clues for you. How many of Rastegar's shell companies did you search and in what jurisdictions? One case I can remember some of the details was probably about 2011-12 when the then shell company that held Rastegar's trademark (now defunct I believe) went after PSA in a European (Dutch?) court regarding the importation of boats. And there were others.

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On 12/5/2019 at 7:44 AM, greenwhiteblack said:

Despite LP bringing out the "Ice Blue" boats which were supposed to be built to match the PSA boats, anyone who has sailed both boats will tell you there's still obvious differences. Pre-Ice Blue, the PSA boats seemed to be weighted more towards the stern, or evenly distributed, whereas the LP boats were a bit more bow heavy. 

However, even with the Ice Blue boats, there is still definite differences in the transom angle/gudgeon placement. Ask any Aussie who's had to charter an LP boat at an event, and most of them will have had trouble with their tillers hitting the traveller cleat, as for some reason the tiller sits much lower on the LP boats than their usual PSA boats. I've heard quite a few people on the Olympic circuit citing this difference as the reason behind the speed of Aussie boats (read sailors), but I think that's just jealousy...

Since the Aussie men win gold using supplied equipment it’s clear it’s not the boats. And since the Aussie women have never got an Olympic medal it’s clear that any supposed winning edge for Aussie sailors must be restricted to the men. I wonder how the boats can know what gender their sailor is?  

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1 hour ago, Curious said:

Since the Aussie men win gold using supplied equipment it’s clear it’s not the boats. And since the Aussie women have never got an Olympic medal it’s clear that any supposed winning edge for Aussie sailors must be restricted to the men. I wonder how the boats can know what gender their sailor is?  

There is a line in here somewhere about boats being female. 

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6 hours ago, SimonN said:

Not maybe. You did. I really cannot be bothered to spend hours trying to find stuff I don't know how to find but here are some clues for you. How many of Rastegar's shell companies did you search and in what jurisdictions? One case I can remember some of the details was probably about 2011-12 when the then shell company that held Rastegar's trademark (now defunct I believe) went after PSA in a European (Dutch?) court regarding the importation of boats. And there were others.

Holy tangent and idiocy. That is lawnmower level dumb. 

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On 12/4/2019 at 2:33 AM, IPLore said:

Looking through all the Laser legal filings LP has only filed motions in defense and counter claims to suits that were started by BKI and Global Sailing (PSA's sister company)

This statement by IPLore is false.

19 hours ago, IPLore said:

Maybe I missed something?

18 hours ago, SimonN said:

Not maybe. You did.

Perhaps "missed" the wrong word. Maybe the right word is "forgot"?

Here is IPLore commenting on the exact case Simon mentions above in the Blowtorch thread:

PS: Time taken to find it was less than 2 minutes. (Remembering what to look for helped, the search also revealed this case  was talked about in 2016, also on the Blowtorch thread.) 

---

We don't need to rehash this, though sadly probably will when false statements are made.

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On 12/5/2019 at 4:02 PM, SimonN said:

Not maybe. You did. I really cannot be bothered to spend hours trying to find stuff I don't know how to find but here are some clues for you. How many of Rastegar's shell companies did you search and in what jurisdictions? One case I can remember some of the details was probably about 2011-12 when the then shell company that held Rastegar's trademark (now defunct I believe) went after PSA in a European (Dutch?) court regarding the importation of boats. And there were others.

No company related to LP has sued PSA in an EU court.

Aside from a couple of debt collection proceedings, the only case of relevance is in Belgium where LP sued a retailer/distributor for breach of trademark. It was a very straightforward case which LP won.  PSA was not the defendant and LP did not "go after" PSA .  The relevance was that the distributor had illegally imported PSA boats and tried to sell them in Europe using LP's trademark.  In this case , LP had the legal and moral high ground and won the case without difficulty.

So again, can anyone point to a single case that substantiates Chris's claim that this all started in the midst of "a litigation period that LP started against PSA"

Can anyone point to a single case to substantiate Simon's claim that

On 12/5/2019 at 12:05 AM, SimonN said:

LP was the first builder/trademark owner to start litigation against other builders.

If they cannot, then I assert that those claims are misleading.

 

Dont get me wrong.....I am no fan of Mr. Rastegar. There is something about him that generates conflict and turmoil like bees to honey. The move against the Sunfish class was stupid and despicable. His business practices and skills are highly questionable. He seems pathologically unable to empathize with his customers.

BUT I am a fan of the facts.  The facts are that LP did not sue PSA.  BKI (and subsequently Global Sailing) sued LP.   If we are going to have a discussion, lets distinguish speculation from fact.    

 

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17 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

 

This statement by IPLore is false.

Perhaps "missed" the wrong word. Maybe the right word is "forgot"?

Here is IPLore commenting on the exact case Simon mentions above in the Blowtorch thread:

PS: Time taken to find it was less than 2 minutes. (Remembering what to look for helped, the search also revealed this case  was talked about in 2016, also on the Blowtorch thread.) 

---

We don't need to rehash this, though sadly probably will when false statements are made. 

104039.strip_.gif.05ef8cdc8686c74fddd49f22836c9ab4.gif

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1 hour ago, IPLore said:

104039.strip_.gif.05ef8cdc8686c74fddd49f22836c9ab4.gif

Seems to those who make obvious false statements inadvertently promote themselves as community idiots.

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It's interesting how looking at raw facts without understanding can distort the position so much. Maybe the Belgium case didn't directly enjoin PSA, although I really did think they were a co-respondent, but to some extent, it misses the point. The story behind the case was fairly simple - LP were going through one of their periods of not supplying boats, so one of their dealers, fed up with the situation, bought a load of boats from PSA and imported them to fill the gap.In the past, if there was a problem with production, builders talked to each other to sort out and allow other builders to do this. Instead, LP went to court. I know that PSA/Global saw this as one of many antagonistic actions by LP, channging the whole cooperative way in  which the Laser world had worked. It was like the whole "illegal" construction claims that LP used to try to get PSA into serious trouble/lose their builders licence. In the past, if there were issues around construction, one builder would pick up the phone to the other and sort it. LP under Rastegar changed the way the game was played from cooperation with all builders working together for the benefit of the class to one of confrontation. 

To me, it is totally irrelevant who actually went to court first and what definition you want to judge that by (I still consider the Belgium case an attack on PSA). It's like a case of a neighbor playing loud music and saying that because you reported it to the authorities, you started the problem. You need to look at the whole picture of what has gone on. If anybody thinks that Rastegar hasn't been deliberately antagonistic or that the actions against LP were a preemptive strike rather than retaliation, they are being delusional. 

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When people do not get along well there is always more than one simple reason. 
When there are various factions whose people Sincerely believe everything would be perfect if their faction had more control and none of the factions trusts or respects any other you have ....

.... what we have. 

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What's the relevance of which party started the legal shenanigans many years ago? The main goal should be to get more Laser-like boats on the water and have parts readily available at reasonable cost.

Image result for I really don't care"

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2 hours ago, Wavedancer II said:

What's the relevance of which party started the legal shenanigans many years ago? The main goal should be to get more Laser-like boats on the water and have parts readily available at reasonable cost.

Image result for I really don't care"

It's definitely a good thing for a class if you can actually buy new boats and parts.

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So did ILCA name a new builder like they said they would... 100s of days ago?

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On 12/7/2019 at 8:41 PM, SimonN said:

To me, it is totally irrelevant who actually went to court first and what definition you want to judge that by (I still consider the Belgium case an attack on PSA). It's like a case of a neighbor playing loud music and saying that because you reported it to the authorities, you started the problem. You need to look at the whole picture of what has gone on. If anybody thinks that Rastegar hasn't been deliberately antagonistic or that the actions against LP were a preemptive strike rather than retaliation, they are being delusional. 

All that may be true, but LP were 100% within their rights in the Belgian case, and from their point of view its hard to see the importer parallel importing boats as anything but a hostile act. Trademarks do need to be defended if you are going to keep them. Whilst there may well have been a history of non-co-operation and antagonism before that, that's really all hearsay. A preemptive strike may be sensible, but it is still starting the war.


But the first interaction we have recorded is LPE ceasing to pay GS their royalties, so in that sense they started things in the court case scenario.  In the same way LPE also kicked off the current scenario by refusing inspections.  They do appear to have a history of ignoring contractual obligations when it suits them, and of making unreasonable demands of CAs. Don't forget the Sunfish saga. To my mind that explains why appointing or reappointing builders is being so time consuming. I'm sure that the CA will want contracts in place that will be enforceable, and at a guess that means not under US law. One might also assume LPE want exactly the opposite and no contractual restrictions on their actions at all.

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8 hours ago, Wess said:

So did ILCA name a new builder like they said they would... 100s of days ago?

Considering everything that's happened with LPE, (or what we may refer to as a rogue builder) I would hope, (and am willing to wait for) the ILCA is spending a significant amount of time on due diligence for this.

While they could have been proactive back in April and started this wheel turning I believe the "rules" prevented that until the new class rule changes were passed in August.  

I'd like to believe things are moving ahead properly and "above board".

 

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8 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Considering everything that's happened with LPE, (or what we may refer to as a rogue builder) I would hope, (and am willing to wait for) the ILCA is spending a significant amount of time on due diligence for this.

While they could have been proactive back in April and started this wheel turning I believe the "rules" prevented that until the new class rule changes were passed in August.  

I'd like to believe things are moving ahead properly and "above board".

 

Why would we refer to LPE as a rogue builder?    I think I've missed something!    AFAIK the only "out of class" boats that have come out of LPE  are the ones that they are explicitly selling as "Club Edition", where they state upfront that they don't have plaques. Arguably, that's a commercial response to the class association preventing them from selling further "legal" boats. They also specifically state that these boats are identical except for the plaque, hence built according to the LCM. Has anyone yet seen any evidence that the boats are non-compliant, or is this a conclusion drawn from the delay in re-approval?

Cheers,

              W.

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31 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Considering everything that's happened with LPE, (or what we may refer to as a rogue builder) I would hope, (and am willing to wait for) the ILCA is spending a significant amount of time on due diligence for this.

While they could have been proactive back in April and started this wheel turning I believe the "rules" prevented that until the new class rule changes were passed in August.  

I'd like to believe things are moving ahead properly and "above board".

 

Oh for gosh sakes, stop the BS. This ain’t about LPE. They were booted. And clearly are not reinstated. That topic is over.  Done and dusted. 

This is about naming a NEW builder. Totally within ILCA’s control and something they repeatedly said they would do soon before the vote. It’s been 100s of days. Why doesn’t ILCA do what they said they were going to do on something totally within their control. Name a new builder for NA and EU already like they promised they would. 

Why won’t they just tell the truth and do what they said? 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Oh for gosh sakes, stop the BS. This ain’t about LPE. They were booted. And clearly are not reinstated. That topic is over.  Done and dusted. 

This is about naming a NEW builder. Totally within ILCA’s control and something they repeatedly said they would do soon before the vote. It’s been 100s of days. Why doesn’t ILCA do what they said they were going to do on something totally within their control. Name a new builder for NA and EU already like they promised they would. 

Why won’t they just tell the truth and do what they said? 

Are you waiting to buy a new boat?

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

Oh for gosh sakes, stop the BS. This ain’t about LPE. They were booted. And clearly are not reinstated. That topic is over.  Done and dusted. 

This is about naming a NEW builder. Totally within ILCA’s control and something they repeatedly said they would do soon before the vote. It’s been 100s of days. Why doesn’t ILCA do what they said they were going to do on something totally within their control. Name a new builder for NA and EU already like they promised they would. 

Why won’t they just tell the truth and do what they said? 

I don't think they can name a single new builder, they will have to wait until they have assessed and approved/rejected all those who applied before the deadline.  If a dozen builders are applying for a FRAND license to build (and all submitted their applications before the deadline) it would unfair to name one and get it approved before the others. 

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2 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I don't think they can name a single new builder, they will have to wait until they have assessed and approved/rejected all those who applied before the deadline.  If a dozen builders are applying for a FRAND license to build (and all submitted their applications before the deadline) it would unfair to name one and get it approved before the others. 

Then why did they say they would? Many public statements made by ILCA before the vote.  Even on this thread by those running the ILCA show. Strange how the story keeps changing. Truth seems highly fungible.

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