Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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28 minutes ago, tillerman said:


Rate these events in order of the probability of them happening before January 1, 2021

A. Donald Trump will have been elected for a second term as US President.  67%

B. The US team will have won at least one Olympic medal in Tokyo. 19%

C. LaserPerformance will be an ILCA approved Laser builder again. 50%

D. Wess will have won any rum from anybody. 0%

E. Tillerman will have sold his RS Aero and taken up Laser sailing again. 0%

F. Zim will be supplying US built ILCA dinghies to US customers. 50%

G. Some dickhead will tell a sailor he can't sail a Laser at a Laser regatta. 99%

 

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6 minutes ago, Wess said:

 

I usually never get past the first sentence of whatever you write 

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Wess is just Bruce after the meds kick in.  They never post at the same time!

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I remember first reading the following statement in the 1980s and being shocked by its bluntness:

Quote

Our class is much bigger than the odd person who wants to gain advantage by illegally changing the Laser or its equipment. They can sail in other classes where the rules allow changes to a boat to get an advantage. We do not want them with us.

I'm wondering if there is an equivalent statement about trolling and trolls - or at least those who present alternate truths.

(The ILCA don't have hidden fees. Fees documented in the public domain are not hidden.)

---

2 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Wess is just Bruce after the meds kick in.  They never post at the same time!

Equally funny is that IPLore is just Clean after the meds kick in. Because they never post at the same time either!

(I hope the above is concise.)

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44 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Why are you here?

Who is asking? 

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13 minutes ago, VWAP said:

I usually never get past the first sentence of whatever you write 

He doesn’t use that many big words and the concepts aren’t really all that difficult to grasp. Perhaps you should go to an anonymous reading teacher and obtain some anonymous help for your anonymous self. 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And what's up with Bill.  Wasn't it almost 2 weeks ago that he said ILCA was going to list and publish ALL the fees.  

Pretty sure I reported that ILCA were going to try to get that info out last week, but there were a couple things in the queue. It turns out those stupid idiots were busy lining up 7 quality builders who are all keen on building ILCAs! They must be stupid idiots, too, eh, Wess? Dealing with ILCA? Sheesh. Madness.

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48 minutes ago, VWAP said:

Why are you here?

Because I moved here in 2007 to be closer to the water and to my kids.

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

 Fund ILCA out of members pockets ONLY and stop putting hidden fees onto non members and I will STFU.  Dare you

This is a serious question. When you say "hidden fees", are you referring to the amounts built in to the retail costs relating to WS requirements? So - same issue with all WS classes?

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

Brilliant! 

+1

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2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

No Tillerman, mean-spirited and fucked up. Its also an attempt to gaslight me.

I am sorry for you that you find such antics entertaining, because in the end, such an approach has hurt you.

You have to calm the fuck down. IPLore’s post was creative, clever and satirical. And you must be used to taking flack by now! You are the author of your own misfortunes, my friend. Your writing style and awkward thought processes generate the responses you get. Live with it. We all know your love of Lasers and the game. Stick with that and stay out of the pseudo legal/philosophical meanderings.

 

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29 minutes ago, bill4 said:

This is a serious question. When you say "hidden fees", are you referring to the amounts built in to the retail costs relating to WS requirements? So - same issue with all WS classes?

The Laser is an Olympic Class. World Sailing proposed this year to collect a fee on the sale of equipment for all Olympic classes of an additional 1% over the 0.4% fee that World Sailing Classes pay.

https://www.sailweb.co.uk/2019/07/25/world-sailing-to-introduce-300000-annual-olympic-sailing-tax/

That's not counting whatever ILCA plan to collect. Can anyone enlighten us on that?

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33 minutes ago, tillerman said:

 Can anyone enlighten us on that?

they broke?

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49 minutes ago, bill4 said:

You have to calm the fuck down.

It may shock you the degree to which I am calm. (My heart rate right now is 47 bpm.)

Quote

IPLore’s post was creative, clever and satirical. And you must be used to taking flack by now! You are the author of your own misfortunes, my friend. Your writing style and awkward thought processes generate the responses you get.

Is this an example?

2 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

First understand that the IYRU agreement prescribed content in the builder's agreement. In the builder's agreements, the builders agreed to comply and be bound with the terms and conditions to the same extent as if the builder was a party to it. That was how they were set up, and everyone at the meetings in the early 1970s were not only aware that was how the contracts were set up, it was seen as a solution to a class exploding onto the world scene like never before. Specifically, these contracts were seen as a necessary part of the IYRU formally recognizing the Laser as an International Class. The original idea was to have many Laser builders in regions all over the world, even in New Zealand (which there was for a time). The ILCA was a part of setting up of every Laser builder after Ian Bruce. The association's chief measurer ensured that the boats adhered to the construction manual, in the spirit of creating as true a one design class as possible. It is inconceivable that the ILCA had no knowledge back in 2011 of the content of the builder's agreement, despite that unfortunate claim being made.

Because like it or not, the relationship was complex, as were the four parts to the agreements: the IYRU agreement; the builders' agreements; the construction manual; and the class rules and measurement the ILCA administered. Very few people understand the true complexity, and the above, though complex, is actually distilled from something even more complex.

Quote

Live with it. We all know your love of Lasers and the game. Stick with that and stay out of the pseudo legal/philosophical meanderings.

I'll never interpret of being accused of doing something I did not do or say as being "clever".

You are asking me to 'take it on the chin'. You also are asking me to not comment on matters of philosophy or law. Respectfully, the answer is no. 

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2 hours ago, tillerman said:

E. Tillerman will have sold his RS Aero and taken up Laser sailing again.

If you end up not using the Laser please consider donating it to a program in Charleston! If not then come down and sail some D12 regattas.

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

You have to calm the fuck down.

temp.png

What's your heart rate Bill?

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35 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

If you end up not using the Laser please consider donating it to a program in Charleston! If not then come down and sail some D12 regattas.

There are a lot of RS Aero regattas in the north-east  and a lot in Florida. But so far we don't have much regatta Aero activity on the rest of the east coast, even though we do have some RS Aero owners in those states. So if you would like to invite RS Aeros to have a start at a regatta in or near Charleston, then I am pretty sure you would get a positive response.

And you are very welcome to come and sail in whichever class you prefer at the Laser/ Sunfish/ RS Aero regatta at my home club, Massapoag YC in Sharon MA  on May 30.

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1 hour ago, MR.CLEAN said:

they broke?

I thought I read somewhere that ILCA were going to charge higher fees on new Laser sales to pay for all their extra costs incurred in running the FRAND builder review and approval process and inspecting regularly a whole bunch of new builders. Does somebody have a link to that news?

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2 hours ago, MR.CLEAN said:

they broke?

ILCA aren't broke. World Sailing is pretty well broke. Tom Ehman has taken a serious look at World Sailing's finances and has some strong views on their situation.

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23 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

ILCA aren't broke. World Sailing is pretty well broke. Tom Ehman has taken a serious look at World Sailing's finances and has some strong views on their situation.

The fucking question was not about ILCA, nor was my answer, muppet.  

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27 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

The fucking question was not about ILCA, nor was my answer, muppet.  

...and I calmly (with a low heart rate) answered about World Sailing and ILCA, since it wasn't clear whether the 'they' you referred to was ILCA or World Sailing.

Here's a clear, concise statement from Bill, directed at me earlier today:

3 hours ago, bill4 said:

You have to calm the fuck down.

My heart rate is still 46 BPM.

How about yours MR. CLEAN?

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Fingers and stopwatch say 59, about my average.  Have to wait until i get home to do a BP test.  Was 125/78 last night when reading Bruce posts though.  Pretty good for my fat ass.

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23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

I used my fingers and a stopwatch and got 59 BPM, which is about my average.  I have to wait until I get home to do a BP test.

Good. I was getting worried, even though I need not. 

23 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

It was 125/78 last night when reading Bruce's posts though.  Pretty good for my fat ass.

FIFY

You have nothing to worry about with my posts unless you start misquoting me or poking me in the eye.

Frankly, I'm still a bit miffed you called a couple of posts clear and concise when they weren't, which effectively encouraged a known troll I was engaging with. But I'll get over that pretty soon.

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11 minutes ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I'm not sure you need to worry so much about my posts unless you start having a dig at me.

 

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5 hours ago, Bruce Hudson said:

You are asking me to 'take it on the chin'. You also are asking me to not comment on matters of philosophy or law. Respectfully, the answer is no. 

Well, if you keep posting the way you often do, it is pretty much guaranteed you are going to blasted by any one (or more)  of several Anarchists. I am beginning to think you are a masochist. Have fun with that!

Meantime - my resting heart rate is 55-60. Has been for years. But thanks for asking.

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26 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Well, if you keep posting the way you often do, it is pretty much guaranteed you are going to blasted by any one of several. I am beginning to think you are a masochist. Have fun with that!

Meantime - my resting heart rate is 55-60. Has been for years. But thanks for asking.

I'm definitely not a masochist, and admit to having an agenda of supporting ILCA. 

With a heart rate like that, you're definitely not a rabbit.

The ILCA stuff under the old arrangement was complicated, and it in my view is a mistake to oversimplify. Would you like to have a crack at writing a succinct explanation of how the contracts and the parties are related? ;) 

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I would say Zim USA built hulls available to ship first half of 2021 and parts available to purchase from them fall 2020. Anyone care to define the verb “build”?EF9CC28B-1FC6-4299-AC3C-6FD5788A57C3.thumb.jpeg.ff988461db6ad11477c0d1b4fc774224.jpeg
 

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7 hours ago, bill4 said:

This is a serious question. When you say "hidden fees", are you referring to the amounts built in to the retail costs relating to WS requirements? So - same issue with all WS classes?

No Bill for the 234th time I mean ALL (Clean loves when people do that)  the fees! There are various WS fees and various ILCA fees all piled onto a Laser hull, sail, rig or other equipment. Some are variable (unit based) some are fixed. Some are on new and some are on existing builders. I have a list and have reason to believe it accurate but am keeping an open mind. I am curious to see if ILCA ever publishes an accurate list and amount of ALL of the fees placed on the sale of a new Laser. I also have the background and experience to do the economic analysis to covert them all into per unit $ costs and have done so. I gotta tell you the amount per hull (or unit) is not insignificant. No I have not included optional (non contractually obligated) that any builder might do (Aero, Laser, whatever) to support a class (such as supply event boats etc..). We can talk (seriously LOL) further if and when and you Laser lemming folks ever produce a  full and complete fee list.

Or maybe we should do a poll to see how much folks think it all adds up to per unit. What says you...

- less than $50

- $50 to $100

- $100 to $250

- $250 to $500

- more than $500

My point is and has been ILCA and WS should fund themselves from members that want to join; not by imposing fees on people who are not members. 

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7 minutes ago, Wess said:

I have a list 

Do share!!

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14 minutes ago, Wess said:

No Bill for the 234th time I mean ALL (Clean loves when people do that)  the fees! There are various WS fees and various ILCA fees all piled onto a Laser hull, sail, rig or other equipment. Some are variable (unit based) some are fixed. Some are on new and some are on existing builders. I have a list and have reason to believe it accurate but am keeping an open mind. I am curious to see if ILCA ever publishes an accurate list and amount of ALL of the fees placed on the sale of a new Laser. I also have the background and experience to do the economic analysis to covert them all into per unit $ costs and have done so. I gotta tell you the amount per hull (or unit) is not insignificant. No I have not included optional (non contractually obligated) that any builder might do (Aero, Laser, whatever) to support a class (such as supply event boats etc..). We can talk (seriously LOL) further if and when and you Laser lemming folks ever produce a  full and complete fee list.

Or maybe we should do a poll to see how much folks think it all adds up to per unit. What says you...

- less than $50

- $50 to $100

- $100 to $250

- $250 to $500

- more than $500

My point is and has been ILCA and WS should fund themselves from members that want to join; not by imposing fees on people who are not members. 

More than $500. 

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37 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Do share!!

Nope; I will patiently await the list you promised. With occasional notes of frustration with ILCA pick pocketing tendencies posted.... soon. 

Hint - I think that word means something different than ILCA management apparently does. Three hundred plus days and counting to that US based builder.
 

 

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:

More than $500. 

And you think that’s OK? Even at half that?

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3 minutes ago, Wess said:

Nope; I will patiently await the list you promised. With occasional notes of frustration with ILCA pick pocketing tendencies posted.... soon. 

Hint - I think that word means something different than ILCA management apparently does. Three hundred plus day and counting to that US builder.
 

 

For the 234th (ish) time, all I promised was to email ILCA and ask a question. Which I did within a few hours. Come on. Show us what you got.

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You are a pain.

New boat with sail $8,000. ILCA fees $105; WS fees $32 

New sail $700. ILCA fees $30

With new WS fees, add $80 to the boat with sail and $7 to the sail. Also increase the cost of licensed ILCA product (vang, foils and spars?) by 1%.

There is my full list. Now show me yours.

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

And you think that’s OK? Even at half that?

It is what it is. I don't have a dog in this fight. I wish the Laser Class all the best. 

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Great day on the water. We even managed to knock the J-24 over sideways once. We grabbed the lead for good on a couple short very lifted tacks after about five miles and stretched it out to over 2 1/2 minutes at the finish.

You guys got in 41 posts while we were sailing. 

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On 1/24/2020 at 9:04 AM, Wess said:

 Aero) is in a class where the class association collects $0 from the builder on each boat sold? 

 

Sounds like RStegar 

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2 hours ago, Gouvernail said:

Great day on the water. We even managed to knock the J-24 over sideways once. We grabbed the lead for good on a couple short very lifted tacks after about five miles and stretched it out to over 2 1/2 minutes at the finish.

You guys got in 41 posts while we were sailing. 

2.5 mins is impressive in a J-24 (We have a couple of similar classes here, I did a little racing on a Noelex 25 a long time ago, slightly after the last ice age).

Sounds like you kicked ass, and had a sufficient lead to pull back the throttle and enjoy the lead.

---

I'd take the sailing any day.

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11 hours ago, bill4 said:

You are a pain.

New boat with sail $8,000. ILCA fees $105; WS fees $32 

New sail $700. ILCA fees $30

With new WS fees, add $80 to the boat with sail and $7 to the sail. Also increase the cost of licensed ILCA product (vang, foils and spars?) by 1%.

There is my full list. Now show me yours.

That is not a list of fees, its an amount.

Question: Is it your amount or one provided by ILCA?

My amount is different than yours (for ILCA), though we have same for WS.

And I am headed out sailing so have a nice day!

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On 1/24/2020 at 4:05 PM, LMI said:

Really

Well I’ve heard Zim’s customer service is excellent. I’m excited to see what make. 

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32 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Well I’ve heard Zim’s customer service is excellent. I’m excited to see what make. 

I am not excited or willing to buy Chinese.

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@Steve Clark told us in the Zim 15 thread that Zim in Rhode Island is a US company and they build the  Zim 15 in Rhode Island. They do sell OPBs too.

 

 

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There are two separate companies that are sometimes referred to as ZIM.

1. A Chinese company  - Qindao Zou Inter Marine Co., Ltd 
2.  A US company - Zim Sailing
Both of them are on the list of 7 potential builders for ILCA.

More information on Zim Sailing and Zou Inter Marine, and their relationship, in this article from 2016  https://www.sailingscuttlebutt.com/2016/09/08/supporting-the-sport/  

For those who don't know, Steve Perry, mentioned in the linked article, is President of Zim Sailing and used to be Vice-President of Operations for Vanguard Sailboats.
 

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4 hours ago, Wess said:

That is not a list of fees, its an amount.

Question: Is it your amount or one provided by ILCA?

My amount is different than yours (for ILCA), though we have same for WS.

And I am headed out sailing so have a nice day!

1) The fees are described and the sums are provided in my post - I didn't realize I was being marked on format. I trust this easier to understand table is worthy:

Fee

Amount

Plaque fees received by ILCA

$81.50

Sail button fees received by ILCA

$31.35

WS  (present)

$32

WS  (new)

$112

2) These amounts are my calculations based on information available from ILCA and WS. I spent a bit more time considering the data resulting in $112.85 for ILCA fees, and not the $105 in my earlier post. I was guessing at how many sails were sold on their own.

3) What is your ILCA amount? 

4) Hope you have bright sunny skies and a pleasant Force 4! (I am playing hockey this aft). 

NOTES:

- The fees above are included in the retail cost of a new boat with sail (I used $8,000). 

- I have a suspicion the WS number is low. If I understand correctly, the builder buys the plaques from WS who then passes along the proceeds to ILCA where it turns up as revenue in their books. I can't imagine a portion of said proceeds don't stick with WS. Unless that is the .4%.  

- WS will also get 1% of licensed parts going forward.

Your turn.

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Bruce, bradycardia in people over 50 could mean an underactive thyroid gland, age related heart tissue damage or several other reasons to tell your doctor about a bpm<50.

 

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15 minutes ago, Leeroy Jenkins said:

Bruce, bradycardia in people over 50 could mean an underactive thyroid gland, age related heart tissue damage or several other reasons to tell your doctor about a bpm<50.

I'm clear with hypothyroidism. My doctors are aware of my bradycardia, and they say I'll live a long time. (I have regular checkups, last one was 7 days ago). My resting heart rate has been 42-46 BPM since I was a teenager, and likely associated with my fitness.

(Thank you for your message!)

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1 hour ago, Bruce Hudson said:

I'm clear with hypothyroidism. My doctors are aware of my bradycardia, and they say I'll live a long time. (I have regular checkups, last one was 7 days ago). My resting heart rate has been 42-46 BPM since I was a teenager, and likely associated with my fitness.

(Thank you for your message!)

I am pleased to hear that. Although we may have our differences occasionally, I do wish you continued good health and a long life.

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17 hours ago, bill4 said:

1) The fees are described and the sums are provided in my post - I didn't realize I was being marked on format. I trust this easier to understand table is worthy:

Fee

Amount

Plaque fees received by ILCA

$81.50

Sail button fees received by ILCA

$31.35

WS  (present)

$32

WS  (new)

$112

2) These amounts are my calculations based on information available from ILCA and WS. I spent a bit more time considering the data resulting in $112.85 for ILCA fees, and not the $105 in my earlier post. I was guessing at how many sails were sold on their own.

3) What is your ILCA amount? 

4) Hope you have bright sunny skies and a pleasant Force 4! (I am playing hockey this aft). 

NOTES:

- The fees above are included in the retail cost of a new boat with sail (I used $8,000). 

- I have a suspicion the WS number is low. If I understand correctly, the builder buys the plaques from WS who then passes along the proceeds to ILCA where it turns up as revenue in their books. I can't imagine a portion of said proceeds don't stick with WS. Unless that is the .4%.  

- WS will also get 1% of licensed parts going forward.

Your turn.

Thanks; the sailing was a blast.  Indeed force 4 from the west.  Got out both in the foiler and the tri (not the Laser this time).  I hope your hockey was fun too.  My resting heart rate is 75 as we speak (when/how did this become a thing???).  My Monday and week look to be a mess so this will be quick and I may have to correct it later as I do not have the list in front of me.  If I am following you, you seem to be at about $225 total.

To answer your question; my total was in the $250-$500 range of the poll.  But honestly I am more interested in the list of all the fees from ILCA if that ever comes out.

Think you are saying that WS went from 0.4 to 1.4%.  WS then proposed another 1%, no?  Not sure if that went into effect yet and if the total would be 2% or 2.4%.  Also not recalling if that was on retail or the transfer price.  But yea, around $112 if the further 1% is not added on top. Possibly as high as almost $200 if it is. And I gotta tell you I sure like ILCA way more than I like WS or think they (WS) do a damn bit of good for grass roots sailors.  Would love to see them collapse but it ain't gonna happen.

The ILCA stuff is far more interesting.  My general sense is that everyone who is anyone in this mess is BSing a bit to a lot so what I have may not be accurate or current.  That is why I wanted to see the actual ILCA list if they publish one.  What I have includes fixed fees as well as the per unit fees and plaques etc...  How to deal with the fixed fees and covert them into per unit is certainly open to argument. I assumed a reasonable pay back period of 3 year and modest market uptake/penetration rate into historic unit sales following that trend. We also need to make an assumption about what territory a new builder tries to enter (impacts fees and total boats sold from assumed market penetration rate).  This was adding up to a not small number.  Now... you can argue that if it was so, the builder could not pass it on as they couldn't price higher than the market would accept.  So... what's the market acceptance limit?  Well in the US we could use the PSA boat retail prices and add in the costs to ship it here.  Basically a new (non PSA) builders fee total pass through could not exceed PSA's boat shipping costs or in theory that new builder's pricing is not viable. Anyway that is way too many words to say how to deal w fixed fees is open to argument and for sake of simplicity I used an assumption that the fee pass through could not exceed the costs to ship a PA boat to the US.  Using the list I have (like I said I don't know if its accurate) and the caveats above it appears ILCA collects more than WS.   I am curious if Robbie ever got a quote for a PSA boat.  What is their local retail price (converted to $US) and how much to ship it or buy same landed in US.  Again this is open to argument.  PSA if they have adequate build capacity (doubt they do but its possible given the market decline) may want to eat the shipping costs and price low in the US in order to drive penetration into both EU and US markets.  The point of all that is even if we had two lists of all fixed and per unit fees collected by ILCA and WS reasonable people may still disagree on the absolute amount per boat because of all those factors. Thus my desire to see the ILCA list published and see if the list of fees imposed is complete and matches up. 

And finally hockey?  Really??  Why not an ice boat???  :)

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On 1/25/2020 at 9:59 AM, Wess said:

 

 

 

I don't get it Sosoo. Robbie had ample time to call Tracy and Andy and get the inside line.  Why ain't he following through on his proposed double or nothing bet??

And what's up with Bill.  He knows I love talking about all the ILCA hidden fees they are pick-pocketing from non members.  Wasn't it almost 2 weeks ago that he said ILCA was going to list and publish ALL the fees.  Still waiting for that too.

They keep using this word "soon" when I think they mean "once in a blue moon."  And not even then...

Yes.  I was busy this weekend promoting Laser sailing.  Friday at 4:30 I left my office and headed to Hilton Head for the annual SAYRA Conference, (SAYRA is the regional governing body for NC,SC,GA which is also D12's territory).

In an attempt to try and grow D12 we joined SAYRA as associate members last year in order to understand their youth championship series events, (which includes all three laser rigs) and combine our D12 series events with as many of the SAYRA events as possible in order to:

1)- increase overall Laser fleet regatta participation. 

2)- Allow junior sailors to participate in the D12 series as well as the SAYRA jr series by attending the same events, (kill 2 birds w/one stone). 

3)- allow jr sailors to see a legitimate pathway in the laser class beyond the age of 18 and the radial rig. 

4)- to mentor these jr sailors with advice and on shore clinics.

In 2017, (and before) D12 used to run their regattas mostly as D12 Laser only events.  Participation dropped off so badly that clubs were telling us they could no longer pull resources to run our events.

In 2017 over a 6 regatta series D12 had 73 skippers sailing.

We began working with SAYRA in 2018...

In 2019 Over a 7 regatta series D12 had 119 skippers sailing.  Our final 2 events of the year had over 50 lasers on the water per event.  The last event, (a 60 year old regatta) had an all time attendance record!

For 2019 and 2020 we've had 5 clubs approach us and ask us to attend their events.  We're now above "red headed step child" status.  Due to having more venues wanting us than we can sail we are voting as a region, (ILCA class members only) to figure out the final 2 regatta venues of our 2020 season.  We are having "good" problems!

At the SAYRA conference I was asked to speak, (after Greg Fisher) regarding fleet building and the success of D12.  During my presentation there were several questions.  Not one question was related to: 1)- the status of the Laser class?  2)- Who is going to be a laser builder?  3)- How can I get a laser?  4)- Questions regarding class rule changes from this summer?  5)- which builder boats are faster? 

The past 2 months I've had parents reaching out to me looking for 4.7 rigs.  Kids are aging our of the Opti's and Bic's.  They are coming to us!  We're expecting a bigger year than last year with a bonified 4.7 class.

Saturday night over drinks I spent 3 hours talking with one of our long time members about how we can try to keep his event, (that has been held for many years, but has had participation issues) in our schedule.  While as D12 secretary I could have simply said, "You're out and so in so is in".  We worked it out, (his idea on the regatta vote).  All the while my ever patient and supporting wife enjoyed meeting a lot of new people in the hospitality suite.

So, yeah.  I was busy. The best kind of busy !  Go the ILCA! 

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1 hour ago, Wess said:

I am curious if Robbie ever got a quote for a PSA boat.  What is their local retail price (converted to $US) and how much to ship it or buy same landed in US.  

Yes- posted last week or week before.  $ 9,125.00 (Tax or local deliver fees not included).  Boats currently in Miami.

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PS.  ZIM US was at our convention this weekend and announced they had been approved as an applicant and are working hard/fast to become an approved builder supplying US built boats!

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On 1/25/2020 at 11:45 PM, Bruce Hudson said:

2.5 mins is impressive in a J-24 (We have a couple of similar classes here, I did a little racing on a Noelex 25 a long time ago, slightly after the last ice age).

Sounds like you kicked ass, and had a sufficient lead to pull back the throttle and enjoy the lead.

---

I'd take the sailing any day.

Ha!  We did this in the 24 fleet on the first race of Charleston Race week last year.  We made the post regatta "pro" discussion on what NOT to do!  they had drone footage of us and you could see us throttling back around the course after we banged out a big first leg lead.  People were relaxed on the rail, not bunched together, talking about last nights party.  I couldn't see all of that from the drivers spot, but it was funny how we got roasted for a nice win.

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21 hours ago, tillerman said:

I am pleased to hear that. Although we may have our differences occasionally, I do wish you continued good health and a long life.

Ditto.

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10 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Ha!  We did this in the 24 fleet on the first race of Charleston Race week last year.  We made the post regatta "pro" discussion on what NOT to do!  they had drone footage of us and you could see us throttling back around the course after we banged out a big first leg lead.  People were relaxed on the rail, not bunched together, talking about last nights party.  I couldn't see all of that from the drivers spot, but it was funny how we got roasted for a nice win.

Great. There are those that walk the walk and then the others. 

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2 hours ago, VWAP said:

Great. There are those that walk the walk and then the others. 

We pretty much all sat down upwind but on the runs a couple people were always standing up. I especially like having someone sit sorta on the  boom and describe the behavior of the overtaking puffs. 
    It is a fabulous new sailor role as watching the wind come from behind, and figuring out which way it is headed with respect to the boat is full of opportunities to see things develop and actually feel like a real contributor. 
   All I need to do is briefly look around every minute or so and refocus the newbie’s observations. 
   “I like how we are sailing a little off to this side. We will he tubing shortly to head back deeper into the center of that big growing puff. Can you see that next puff growing about 400 yards back?? 
You can watch that that one as it grows. I don’t thing it will ever get to us as it seems to be going off to the side. If it grows and spreads, we might get to use some of that wind.”

BOOM!!! The newbie is involved and is doing way more than just trying to put the sails in the right position. The newbie rapidly learns, “If we can find more wind to use than anybody else we will go faster than anybody else.”

     Back on shore I can honestly tell people, “She kept us under the nastiest puffs all the way down wind and it  was her first try as a downwind tactician.”
 

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23 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Yes- posted last week or week before.  $ 9,125.00 (Tax or local deliver fees not included).  Boats currently in Miami.

That's a pretty god price for a new unused PSA boat landed in US if its fully loaded.  I have some friends in Australia who got some pricing for me and here is what I am seeing across the range of builders.  In all cases folks claimed boats were available and I could pick them up (or have shipped) immediately.

  * Non-Plaqued LPE boat in US east coast - $5400

  * Stock LPE in US east coast - $6400 (one local dealer as low as $6200)

  * Fully loaded LPE in US east coast - $7400

That is east coast.  West coast is slightly more.  About $7000 for stock LPE and $7900 for fully loaded.

For PSA boats sold through dealers in Australia friends got quoted (converted to US $)...

  * Stock PSA boat - $8300

  * Fully Loaded PSA boat - $9300

From that I was estimating it would be well over $10K (all in) to get a fully loaded PSA boat that was shipped here.  So the $9100 if it really is new, unused, fully loaded and sitting east coast is not a bad price (just local sales tax to add??).  Can get the LPE boat for way less but well... its an LPE boat LOL.

The other interesting thing is that if PSA boats stay at that price in US (~9-10K) then the club (non-plaqued) Lasers from LPE look a bit more interesting at almost a 50% discount (~5K) compared to PSA.  That might get more traction than I initially thought and it will be interesting to see how its dealt with at the grass roots level. 

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51 minutes ago, Wess said:

That's a pretty god price for a new unused PSA boat landed in US if its fully loaded.  I have some friends in Australia who got some pricing for me and here is what I am seeing across the range of builders.  In all cases folks claimed boats were available and I could pick them up (or have shipped) immediately.

  * Non-Plaqued LPE boat in US east coast - $5400

  * Stock LPE in US east coast - $6400 (one local dealer as low as $6200)

  * Fully loaded LPE in US east coast - $7400

That is east coast.  West coast is slightly more.  About $7000 for stock LPE and $7900 for fully loaded.

For PSA boats sold through dealers in Australia friends got quoted (converted to US $)...

  * Stock PSA boat - $8300

  * Fully Loaded PSA boat - $9300

From that I was estimating it would be well over $10K (all in) to get a fully loaded PSA boat that was shipped here.  So the $9100 if it really is new, unused, fully loaded and sitting east coast is not a bad price (just local sales tax to add??).  Can get the LPE boat for way less but well... its an LPE boat LOL.

The other interesting thing is that if PSA boats stay at that price in US (~9-10K) then the club (non-plaqued) Lasers from LPE look a bit more interesting at almost a 50% discount (~5K) compared to PSA.  That might get more traction than I initially thought and it will be interesting to see how its dealt with at the grass roots level. 

What does "fully loaded" mean? Including a dolly and covers?

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19 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What does "fully loaded" mean? Including a dolly and covers?

the price @RobbieB quoted includes dolly and covers. and a composite top section

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This may be a hard question to answer as there are many potential builders coming online.  Anyway, was the intent to have the composite sections completely replace aluminum spars on new boats?  Or will they be offered side-by-side as a cost option?

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21 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What does "fully loaded" mean? Including a dolly and covers?

... Foil bag? Sail lettered & numbered? Rhombus, if needed?

Cheers,

               W.

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34 minutes ago, tillerman said:

What does "fully loaded" mean? Including a dolly and covers?

I would have to go back and check Tiller.  I tend to think of it as covers and carbon top section.  I had specifically asked about carbon uppers and was told yes in each case.  Not sure about dolly as I have multiple and so didn't care.  The local $6200 quote for the LPE boat had a dolly but no carbon upper so I didn't call it fully loaded.

No clue re sails lettered and numbered @WGWarburton. That is so easy I would always just do myself if somebody wanted to charge me.

5 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Wonder how much a ZIM ILCA will be.

No clue and I would want to buy American if it really was built in the US (vs assembled on a Chinese hull).  But to buy an early Zim boat vs PSA which is proven... hard decision.

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2 minutes ago, Wess said:

No clue and I would want to buy American if it really was built in the US (vs assembled on a Chinese hull).  But to buy an early Zim boat vs PSA which is proven... hard decision.

I think the first year or two the zim hulls will be made here completely. Down the road more of a chance they will be assembled from decks and hulls from China.

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26 minutes ago, Wess said:

I would have to go back and check Tiller.  I tend to think of it as covers and carbon top section.  I had specifically asked about carbon uppers and was told yes in each case.  Not sure about dolly as I have multiple and so didn't care.  The local $6200 quote for the LPE boat had a dolly but no carbon upper so I didn't call it fully loaded.

No clue re sails lettered and numbered @WGWarburton. That is so easy I would always just do myself if somebody wanted to charge me.

No clue and I would want to buy American if it really was built in the US (vs assembled on a Chinese hull).  But to buy an early Zim boat vs PSA which is proven... hard decision.

PSA price out of Miami is fully loaded.  Brand new/never sailed:

Top cover, dolly, composite top section, carbon tiller and extension, blade bag- (choose the rig you want/full/radial/4.7).You can get around the tax if they deliver it to you, (out of the state of Fl).  Don't know if that price will stay the same on the next container, (24 boats per) but these guys are looking at ordering 1 to 3 more containers soon.  PM me and I'll give you the guys phone # if interested.

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45 minutes ago, torrid said:

This may be a hard question to answer as there are many potential builders coming online.  Anyway, was the intent to have the composite sections completely replace aluminum spars on new boats?  Or will they be offered side-by-side as a cost option?

At all the places I called they were offering both.  No clue about future.  But this also begs the question...

  * Anyone out there have the carbon upper, how long, and how has it held up?  How careful are you to keep it covered and out of the weather?

The one thing I like about the alloy it that it can be tossed anywhere. I am guessing with the carbon upper it needs to be covered or stored indoors... to avoid UV damage.

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44 minutes ago, Wess said:

At all the places I called they were offering both.  No clue about future.  But this also begs the question...

  * Anyone out there have the carbon upper, how long, and how has it held up?  How careful are you to keep it covered and out of the weather?

The one thing I like about the alloy it that it can be tossed anywhere. I am guessing with the carbon upper it needs to be covered or stored indoors... to avoid UV damage.

I've had the composite top for 2 years now.  I keep my whole rig covered and garaged when not sailing so... It seems pretty tough.  I had a nasty near shore capsize when an unexpected gust hit me. I rolled to weather with a decent head of DW speed going.  The top section stopped me when it hit the rail of the laser to weather of me, (he went over too) and then bounced onto some rocks.  Tore a hole in the luff sleeve of my sail, but didn't even put a scratch on the top section.  They are about 20% stiffer than the aluminum so they vang differently than what you're used to.

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2 hours ago, Old Yeller said:

I think the first year or two the zim hulls will be made here completely. Down the road more of a chance they will be assembled from decks and hulls from China.

What are you saying?  Decks and hulls made in molds in China, shipped here to be glued together, and instantly they become made-in-the-USA?

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I was told that this could happen 2-3 years out. I didn’t say anything about “instantly  they become made-in-the-USA “.  Not saying that this would be good or bad, but as a consumer I would definitely want to know as much as possible about the product.

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

At all the places I called they were offering both.  No clue about future.  But this also begs the question...

  * Anyone out there have the carbon upper, how long, and how has it held up?  How careful are you to keep it covered and out of the weather?

The one thing I like about the alloy it that it can be tossed anywhere. I am guessing with the carbon upper it needs to be covered or stored indoors... to avoid UV damage.

Re the Carbon top section- its been nothing but terrific news since they got rolled out down here in Australia.  .... as a family we've run them hard since their inception and haven't had a single issue.   Daughter sails radials 5 x per week, lining up for women's radial worlds next month (pic below).   I'm an overweight underskilled club hack and haven't got close to damaging one, despite regular stacks and clumsiness around the ramp.   Across the Aussie laser fleet of competitive sailors I'm not aware of a single failure in a race or training ... unlike the radial bottom sections...  we store them under the top cover for boats kept outside and haven't had any apparent UV issues.

Speaking of radial bottom sections ... we've just ordered a new carbon radial bottom section and cannot wait for it to be in the boat ...  with the vang loads on the alloy bottom section in the radial class they have been pushed beyond their capabilities and failures have been all to common!!! Viva la carbon!!!

 

17D29A1F-BE9B-42FB-9701-579654630BA8_1_201_a.jpeg

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5 hours ago, Stanno said:

Re the Carbon top section- its been nothing but terrific news since they got rolled out down here in Australia.  .... as a family we've run them hard since their inception and haven't had a single issue.   Daughter sails radials 5 x per week, lining up for women's radial worlds next month (pic below).   I'm an overweight underskilled club hack and haven't got close to damaging one, despite regular stacks and clumsiness around the ramp.   Across the Aussie laser fleet of competitive sailors I'm not aware of a single failure in a race or training ... unlike the radial bottom sections...  we store them under the top cover for boats kept outside and haven't had any apparent UV issues.

Speaking of radial bottom sections ... we've just ordered a new carbon radial bottom section and cannot wait for it to be in the boat ...  with the vang loads on the alloy bottom section in the radial class they have been pushed beyond their capabilities and failures have been all to common!!! Viva la carbon!!!

 

17D29A1F-BE9B-42FB-9701-579654630BA8_1_201_a.jpeg

All the juniors and masters we coach now have carbon uppers. We are looking into the lower sections 

Great addition to the class

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23 hours ago, Wess said:

At all the places I called they were offering both.  No clue about future.  But this also begs the question...

  * Anyone out there have the carbon upper, how long, and how has it held up?  How careful are you to keep it covered and out of the weather?

The one thing I like about the alloy it that it can be tossed anywhere. I am guessing with the carbon upper it needs to be covered or stored indoors... to avoid UV damage.

I think @Stanno said it best about the carbon upper but we have about a dozen in our fleet in Park City, Utah. Sun is brutal here at 6000ft of elevation where the boats are so no carbon upper is left in the sun. After sailing, we have a container where sailors can leave uppers and lowers together with their sails wrapped around the masts. A couple of sailors take their spars apart and put them under the top covers.  

No breakages, no issues.

I'm hoping that Zim gets the contract.  Their lead builder is a knowledgeable guy who used to be part of Vanguard sailboats.

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31 minutes ago, WCB said:

I think @Stanno said it best about the carbon upper but we have about a dozen in our fleet in Park City, Utah. Sun is brutal here at 6000ft of elevation where the boats are so no carbon upper is left in the sun. After sailing, we have a container where sailors can leave uppers and lowers together with their sails wrapped around the masts. A couple of sailors take their spars apart and put them under the top covers.  

No breakages, no issues.

I'm hoping that Zim gets the contract.  Their lead builder is a knowledgeable guy who used to be part of Vanguard sailboats.

I have experienced the collar swell when left in the sun.  I have to put cold water in it for it to fit in the lower section.  Same thing when I come off the water.  If I let it sit on deck and heat up I have to douse the mast in cold water and get someone to help putt the upper and lower apart. Hey, tight is right!  Right?

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4 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

I have experienced the collar swell when left in the sun.  I have to put cold water in it for it to fit in the lower section.  Same thing when I come off the water.  If I let it sit on deck and heat up I have to douse the mast in cold water and get someone to help putt the upper and lower apart. Hey, tight is right!  Right?

That's one way to prevent the spars from spinning on each other...

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All this talk about carbon uppers.  What is wrong with you people.  Laser does not stand for

Lets

Ass-rape

Sailors at

Every

Register

The Laser was born as an affordable OD boat and a SMOD class for the masses.  The boat won a contest for under $1000 OD dinghies.  Now you pay almost that much for just a carbon top section and talk about boats costing an order of magnitude more.  How is this good for juniors.  How is this good for sailors.  How is this good for anyone except for builders who want more control and more $s.  The original top section worked well for decades at a fraction of the costs of the carbon upper.  You people have thrown away the basic premise of the boat and class are killing what used to be the best OD dinghy in world. 

You can't even call it a Laser anymore.  What is an ILCA except for a more expensive copycat boat and class that sold out the original concepts of both Kirby and Bruce.

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Let me know when you find the reset button 

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2 hours ago, LMI said:

All this talk about carbon uppers.  What is wrong with you people.  Laser does not stand for

Lets

Ass-rape

Sailors at

Every

Register

The Laser was born as an affordable OD boat and a SMOD class for the masses.  The boat won a contest for under $1000 OD dinghies.  Now you pay almost that much for just a carbon top section and talk about boats costing an order of magnitude more.  How is this good for juniors.  How is this good for sailors.  How is this good for anyone except for builders who want more control and more $s.  The original top section worked well for decades at a fraction of the costs of the carbon upper.  You people have thrown away the basic premise of the boat and class are killing what used to be the best OD dinghy in world. 

You can't even call it a Laser anymore.  What is an ILCA except for a more expensive copycat boat and class that sold out the original concepts of both Kirby and Bruce.

interesting points but no reason to put the effort, expense etc going to a major event and have your upper spar break, or bend. When we coach at regattas, juniors, masters we have a checklist of what to bring etc. The cost of a carbon spar is irrelevant in these cases. 

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A bit different situation from fifty years ago.  When the Laser was first developed, obviously there was no used market.  Today with so many second-hand boats around, anyone price conscious will go that route.  Most people specifically in the market for a new boat will readily pony up the extra money for composite.

I agree it can have negative impact on the SMOD/affordability nature of the class, but we also need to have viable builders.  And to keep top-level players in the game.

I think equivalent composite replacements is a better route than a whole new rig.

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