Wess

ILCA gives LPE the boot... seeking new Laser builder

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21 minutes ago, Xeon said:

Yet another press release straight from LPE :angry:

It does raise the interesting point of why no new sail makers have been approved yet. 
I can understand that hulls, foils and spars are a slow business and I’m not expecting any new build boats this year. But sails?  Why the delay?  Just post the pattern to the public domain. 

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1 hour ago, Xeon said:

Yet another press release straight from LPE :angry:

That's an easy way to dismiss his comments. 

 Perhaps it would be more constructive to read IPLore's post above and then consider that there may be a significant number of sailors in Europe who's perspective has not been skewed by poor customer service who also feel this way. JPK may be reflecting their views.

  LPE are presumably struggling to accommodate ILCAs assault on their business... will be interesting to see if the LL they intend to announce is successful at grassroots level.  It certainly seems as if SMOD, perhaps even one-design, is off the table for now. Which is disappointing for a class built on that principle. 

 Maybe it'll work- Lasers for grassroots, clubs etc. Imported ILCAs for those with dreams. Any kid who wants to step up to the big league just needs to invest in proper Olympic equipment; the extra couple of grand isn't much if you are already planning to invest in the training, event attendance, coaching etc... and everyone knows that you can't make it without a pile of cash anyway...

Cheers,

               W.

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3 hours ago, IPLore said:

The vision of Ian Bruce, which BK agreed with and still agrees with, was based on strategically based manufacturing facilities around the world under multiple, sole or jv ownership with a strictly controlled construction method and strictly defined territories.

Ian and BK were adamantly opposed to multiple builders competing in the same market. They believed that competing builders within a class was a broken model in the dinghy scene prior to the 1970s. Multiple builders were prone to compete on quality or seek some performance advantage. Ian believed sailors wanted boats of identical quality. Multiple builders would be leery of investing in class development and supporting class activities for fear of subsidizing their competition. Ian believed that class promotion and supporting class events was as important as the boat itself.

The path the class is going down today is very different from the original vision of Ian and BK.  Im not saying its right or wrong, just different. Maybe times have changed and Ian and BK's vision is no longer relevant. Time will tell.

Mssrs Bruce and Kirby could never have foreseen their little dinghy becoming an Olympic Class and subsequently subjected to WS and FRAND issues. I believe their view would be different now. I still can't see these boats being markedly different from builder to builder. The microscope is going be on, and I would think more scrutiny will go into inspections - especially at the outset. I also can't see sailors buying and shipping a boat from Australia to North America on the premise/rumour it is a bit faster upwind. On the practical side, what if there is a warranty issue? Finally, I assume the world events will all be in supplied boats, so at the top level, there won't be any difference anyway (notwithstanding manufacturing tolerances). 

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15 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Mssrs Bruce and Kirby could never have foreseen their little dinghy becoming an Olympic Class and subsequently subjected to WS and FRAND issues. I believe their view would be different now.

Maybe Bill, maybe it was the Olympics.

The Laser always was the odd man out in the Olympic classes. A simple single handed inexpensive boat with basic controls and an unrefined rig but fun to sail, where the best Olympians in the world sailed the exact same boat as hundreds of thousands of amateur sailors around the globe. Where a kid who starts sailing a boat off a beach in Limassol can win an Olympic medal and a young timber merchant who emerged from no national program and was on nobody's watch list can win a world championship. Perhaps a class which can be found available for rent for a few bucks on beach resorts around the globe did not fit in with the Olympic aesthetic. It was a boat which we could all afford to buy straight out of college and go sailing with our friends at the local lake, and some good sailors would emerge undiscovered by processed youth sailing programs and travel to regional regattas and then national regattas. A boat sailed by thousands and thousands with no interest in going to the Olympics but brought together by a fun boat.  It broke the Olympic mold for a while and perhaps it was always doomed.

And yet? For 20 years the model survived the Olympic vested interests. It was a good run.

Or maybe it was a simple commercial clash of interests between a different generation of boat builders and their owners who didnt share Ian and BK's dream. Perhaps the boat had become a consumer product with a potential Asian market opportunity....and a small squabble became a small fight became a big battle became several wars on several fronts ......and as the dust rose in the air, we could not see Ian and BK's boat any more. 

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12 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Maybe Bill, maybe it was the Olympics.

The Laser always was the odd man out in the Olympic classes. A simple single handed inexpensive boat with basic controls and an unrefined rig but fun to sail, where the best Olympians in the world sailed the exact same boat as hundreds of thousands of amateur sailors around the globe. Where a kid who starts sailing a boat off a beach in Limassol can win an Olympic medal and a young timber merchant who emerged from no national program and was on nobody's watch list can win a world championship. Perhaps a class which can be found available for rent for a few bucks on beach resorts around the globe did not fit in with the Olympic aesthetic. It was a boat which we could all afford to buy straight out of college and go sailing with our friends at the local lake, and some good sailors would emerge undiscovered by processed youth sailing programs and travel to regional regattas and then national regattas. A boat sailed by thousands and thousands with no interest in going to the Olympics but brought together by a fun boat.  It broke the Olympic mold for a while and perhaps it was always doomed.

And yet? For 20 years the model survived the Olympic vested interests. It was a good run.

Or maybe it was a simple commercial clash of interests between a different generation of boat builders and their owners who didnt share Ian and BK's dream. Perhaps the boat had become a consumer product with a potential Asian market opportunity....and a small squabble became a small fight became a big battle became several wars on several fronts ......and as the dust rose in the air, we could not see Ian and BK's boat any more. 

All very good points. I recall some pundits talking about the need for the sexiness of new rigs to attract/keep the younger crowd, lest we lose them all to kites and foilers. And, yes, the Asian market seemingly became a major concern. This created a new/renewed focus on smaller sailors. All things to all sailors in all countries. That is a big call. 

 

 

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3 minutes ago, bill4 said:

All things to all sailors in all countries. That is a big call. 

 

 

And a recipe for killing the goose that laid the golden egg.

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35 minutes ago, bill4 said:

All very good points. I recall some pundits talking about the need for the sexiness of new rigs to attract/keep the younger crowd, lest we lose them all to kites and foilers. And, yes, the Asian market seemingly became a major concern. This created a new/renewed focus on smaller sailors. All things to all sailors in all countries. That is a big call. 

 

 

My reference to Asia is that the small spark that eventually lit a large fire seems to fate back 5 or 6 years when PSA and LP started with a small disagreement on who should be supplying boats to one or two Asian markets.

Of course, we are going to see some of the younger crowd sailing kites and foilers. Lets stop thinking of that as a "loss" . Its great. Lets celebrate it....and lets not try and reinvent the Laser as a response.

 

 

 

 

I am sure we were a loss to some of the older classes when we started jumping onto the Laser in our 20s. It was fun, fast and affordable......and offered great competition. My recollection is that the Laser was rejected in its first submission as an Olympic class?????? Twice????? Does anyone remember?

 

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27 minutes ago, IPLore said:

Of course, we are going to see some of the younger crowd sailing kites and foilers. Lets stop thinking of that as a "loss" . Its great. Lets celebrate it....and lets not try and reinvent the Laser as a response.

Exactly 

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56 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:
1 hour ago, IPLore said:

Of course, we are going to see some of the younger crowd sailing kites and foilers. Lets stop thinking of that as a "loss" . Its great. Lets celebrate it....and lets not try and reinvent the Laser as a response.

Exactly 

I wonder why my post got censored. It seems innocent enough.

Are the winds of status quo blowing through the forums of SA?

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13 minutes ago, IPLore said:

I wonder why my post got censored. It seems innocent enough.

Are the winds of status quo blowing through the forums of SA?

Who censored your post? I underlined for emphasis? Did I miss something?

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10 minutes ago, Old Yeller said:

Who censored your post? I underlined for emphasis? Did I miss something?

The post that you quoted was removed from the forum in its entirety and then mysteriously reappeared. All good.

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Just like to touch on a few points.

SMOD, it really should be LMOD as in "Limited".   You spoke of Ian Bruce’s model and of course I spend a lot of time with IB being very philosophical over pinacolatos late into the night on his front lawn.     The other person you are forgetting is Ward McKim.

I do remember Ian commenting that the TGiF he originally conceived would not stand even modern club racing, let alone the Olympics.   I was assumed that a TGiF would be loved by its owner, not used by some club member or even worse, tolerated by some sailing school person.       To the best of my knowledge the boat has been evolving from the very beginning, and it needs to continue to evolve if it is to remain relevant.

(and this has ZERO to do with C-Rigs)

The world is littered with products, some of those boats, which the manufacture has steadfastly refuse to evolve, and most of those products are at the tip!

From both the 29er and 49er POV, as a very simple example which has some relevance WRT the Laser, Rudder-stocks.   The original boat had FRP rudder stock.     Worked fabulously when people where all about VMG, but as soon as you got into tactical racing, it failed spectacularly.     Enter the cast alloy Rudder stock, heavy, crude, but it does the job and I note that just about every Olympic class has some form of alloy rudder stock.     Not an FRP one to be seen.     With the 49er we are likely to go to an extruded rudder stock shortly, best the sailors have evolved and the cast one just can’t hack it anymore.

I have said this before, but for someone like me, or IB to look 20-50 years down the runway and be able to identify every probably nuance that the bulk of the sailors will subject you product to is totally absurd.    The TGiF would have died 40 years ago if it had not had continual evolution, which started even before the first 100 boats were made.    The Opie evolved into the IODA and exploded and given I have just been a guest at an Opie tech committee meeting, that evolution is not likely to be stopping any time soon!

Next bit I would like to touch on but staying with LMOD.

The 2 builders in the 49er cooperate closely.      There are in fact 3 builders, I simple chose not to build.      We try and meet 2 times a year, last time was in Auckland in December, next time will be in Garda in May, and we work with each other, to as closely as possible to align the offerings.    Over the last 5-10 years PSA & PSJ have being doing the same thing.    When Tim Coventry or David Graham where in charge of LP and before that Chip and Steve, Vanguard, they did also.

With the 49er we also have a 5 year evoloution plan, we (inc the class, with buy in from the sailors) have set ourselves goals for the next 10 years!

Simple fact is the sum of all is always bigger than the addition of individual parts.

Back to IB and pinacolatos, one thing I can be 1000% positive about was, his attitude!      Sure, have territories and sure, if someone has success beyond a reasonable point then have a marketing contribution between the parties, but to try and stop “cross board traffic” was both futile and counterproductive!     If you look at 29er/49er manufacturing contracts, there is IB littered all the way through them and the above sentiment comes through loud and clear.

The last bit is a bit of a challenge.

I am sitting here with a bit of paper and its heading is “21st Century Sailing Community”!

Lots of you have commented on the ILCA and its failings.

I’m not going to touch on manners of voting, think that is a bit esoteric, you either accept the umpire’s decision or you go play somewhere else.    (sorry I just touched on it)

(And maybe that’s what has just happened in Italy)

So what is the “perfect” “21st Century Sailing Community”!       

            How should it be structured?

            How should a vote be done?

            What should its objective be?

I have about a week to give my thoughts on the subject, so I would be interested on what people think given “that deadly” SM (which we are all playing with right now) and “fake news”.

What should a “21st Century Sailing Community”! look like??????

                            jB

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21st Century Sailing Community:

# 1 It will be online  and offline. Online will include Socializing, Sharing Knowledge, Sharing the Experience (in ways that go way beyond what we are doing now ) and yes, the experience itself. One small example. SailX (RIP) provided a global experience that allowed a community of sailors ranging from 12 year old Croatian Opti sailors to 80 year old Brazilian Star sailors to race against each other and then make friends you sailed with in real life.  The Volvo online RTW race built a massive global community.

#2 The offline physical community will be diverse participating in an accessible sport. Accessible via cost, simplicity and convenience.

  • Many clubs will provide club owned one design fleets
  • A category of higher performance boats will be simpler and easier to sail. Faster lighter boats will be less complex and no longer the preserve of elite performance sailors.
  • Ergonomic simplicity will influence design, and manufacturing simplicity (aka cost) will influence engineering.
  • A greater number of women sailors at the grass roots level of amateur sailing will have a dramatic positive impact on participation......couples sailing will experience a renaissance.

#3  Elite competitive sailors will be flying faster and be recognized as astonishing athletes providing a visually exciting spectator sport

  • Kiteboarding will finally be embraced by the sailing community 
  • There will be international competition (maybe Olympics) in foiling one design boats  
  • At the other end of the spectrum , WS will finally dismantle the politics around Olympic equipment and define the 5 categories of the sport, and promote a competitive equipment selection process only within those categories, not between categories.

#4 Youth sailing programs will experience a fundamental revolution as the leaders of the sport figure out why strong levels of participation in youth sailing programs does not lead to adult participation in the sport.

 

and so much more :)

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OK, Mambo, thankyou,  I possible need to refine the "ask" a bit better.

I have no desire, or the time left to get involved in WS poltics.     What you have offered above is spectacular, but a pay grade above what I am contemplating!

What I am seeking is ideas about a single entity, a product that offers something to a singular part of the sailing community.

You touch on age, and that is important, how do you reconcile  the aspirations of a 14 something kids, who has no pre-conceived ideas with those of a 40 year old hard nose who has being doing the same thing for the last 25 years and can't see why he should do anything else, ever.      Should the 14 year old be rail-roaded into the 40 year-olds train track of 25 years of PAST history????     And if not, what check and balances should be in place so that the 40 years old's credibility is not thrown in the can!??

BTW, I really like your #4!

Ask and you will recieve, and that you have!

                 jB

 

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15 hours ago, IPLore said:

The vision of Ian Bruce, which BK agreed with and still agrees with, was based on strategically based manufacturing facilities around the world under multiple, sole or jv ownership with a strictly controlled construction method and strictly defined territories.

I'm glad we agree that to a large extent, multiple builders fulfilled the original vision.

Because people moved their boats out of their territory (at least 25 years), strict territories were not adhered to. What was discovered that there was no advantage of boats built by one boat over the other.

Also, when builders closed down, the new LPE boats competed against the almost new Vanguard boats. When PSNZ closed down, new PSA boats competed against almost new PSNZ boats. Having said that, in past years there were variances with batches, but you have to go back a few years for that.

I'm not aware that there were performance differences between builders who diligently followed the construction manual.

If anyone has solid evidence of these differences, please let us know.

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Interesting snippit from the minutes of the most recent Australian Laser Class Association AGM, http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020_ALCA_AGM_Minutes__Reports.pdf :
 

Quote

North Sails are expected to move to direct to consumer sale of their Laser sails. The other two class sailmakers Hyde and Pryde are understood not to be gearing up for a similar move.

I wonder if North will price-fix to stay the same  as the existing Hyde and Pryde sails, or will they be a bit more aggressive and gain some market share

The pessimist in me suspects there will be some sort of clause in the agreement allowing them to go direct saying they can't undercut the other's 

One can only hope, the pryde "club" sails are pretty cheap: https://www.neilprydesails.com/shop/laser

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3 hours ago, JMP said:

Interesting snippit from the minutes of the most recent Australian Laser Class Association AGM, http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020_ALCA_AGM_Minutes__Reports.pdf :

“C5 Rig Status – Chris Caldecoat outlined the progress with the introduction of the C5 rig.
 While the rig is meeting its objectives and has been positively received by trialists its introduction has been delayed due to some technical issues and need for fine tuning of the components.
 20 rigs have been manufactured 10 of which have been sold.
 The C5 is not a replacement for the 4.7 and is in fact proving similar in performance to
the Radial. The aim is a very gradual introduction alongside the existing rigs with the
C5 aimed to appeal to graduates into the class from Optis.
 The rig is more modern, easier to depower and better balanced than the 4.7 and is
expected to have strong appeal in some (but not all) markets.
Chris quoted Tracy Usher ILCA President that the Laser is nearly 50 years old and that
it is difficult to see it surviving and thriving in another 50 years without a path for gradual evolution. The C5 (and later potentially C6 and C8) are steps in this direction.”

(I underlined for emphasis) So this has nothing to do with the CRigs? “The lady doth protest too much, methinks.”

 

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Addendum to my previous note:
I decided to hold off on filling out the final application until somebody shows me a real mold. 

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7 minutes ago, Dave Clark said:

Addendum to my previous note:
I decided to hold off on filling out the final application until somebody shows me a real mold. 

Sorry to hear that. I was Recently told there would be no other US builders other than Zim. I was hoping for another option.

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3 hours ago, JMP said:

Interesting snippit from the minutes of the most recent Australian Laser Class Association AGM, http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020_ALCA_AGM_Minutes__Reports.pdf :
 

I wonder if North will price-fix to stay the same  as the existing Hyde and Pryde sails, or will they be a bit more aggressive and gain some market share

The pessimist in me suspects there will be some sort of clause in the agreement allowing them to go direct saying they can't undercut the other's 

One can only hope, the pryde "club" sails are pretty cheap: https://www.neilprydesails.com/shop/laser

I've had both North and Hyde.  I'll pay more for the Hyde thanks.

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8 hours ago, Mambo Kings said:

21st Century Sailing Community:

# 1 It will be online  and offline. Online will include Socializing, Sharing Knowledge, Sharing the Experience (in ways that go way beyond what we are doing now ) and yes, the experience itself. One small example. SailX (RIP) provided a global experience that allowed a community of sailors ranging from 12 year old Croatian Opti sailors to 80 year old Brazilian Star sailors to race against each other and then make friends you sailed with in real life.  The Volvo online RTW race built a massive global community.

#2 The offline physical community will be diverse participating in an accessible sport. Accessible via cost, simplicity and convenience.

  • Many clubs will provide club owned one design fleets
  • A category of higher performance boats will be simpler and easier to sail. Faster lighter boats will be less complex and no longer the preserve of elite performance sailors.
  • Ergonomic simplicity will influence design, and manufacturing simplicity (aka cost) will influence engineering.
  • A greater number of women sailors at the grass roots level of amateur sailing will have a dramatic positive impact on participation......couples sailing will experience a renaissance.

#3  Elite competitive sailors will be flying faster and be recognized as astonishing athletes providing a visually exciting spectator sport

  • Kiteboarding will finally be embraced by the sailing community 
  • There will be international competition (maybe Olympics) in foiling one design boats  
  • At the other end of the spectrum , WS will finally dismantle the politics around Olympic equipment and define the 5 categories of the sport, and promote a competitive equipment selection process only within those categories, not between categories.

#4 Youth sailing programs will experience a fundamental revolution as the leaders of the sport figure out why strong levels of participation in youth sailing programs does not lead to adult participation in the sport.

 

and so much more :)

Take #4 and connect to your first point in #2 then ad in "Jr membership reduced dues" and you have a good start.

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22 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Guy needs to take a pill.

I’ll take one please

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6 hours ago, JMP said:

Interesting snippit from the minutes of the most recent Australian Laser Class Association AGM, http://www.lasersdownunder.com/wp-content/uploads/2020_ALCA_AGM_Minutes__Reports.pdf :
 

I wonder if North will price-fix to stay the same  as the existing Hyde and Pryde sails, or will they be a bit more aggressive and gain some market share

The pessimist in me suspects there will be some sort of clause in the agreement allowing them to go direct saying they can't undercut the other's 

One can only hope, the pryde "club" sails are pretty cheap: https://www.neilprydesails.com/shop/laser

Not sure that clause would meet antitrust rules...

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25 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

Not sure that clause would meet antitrust rules...

what clause?

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10 hours ago, JulianB said:

OK, Mambo, thankyou,  I possible need to refine the "ask" a bit better.

I have no desire, or the time left to get involved in WS poltics.     Only #3.3 touched on WS politics (with a 21st century plea to do away with WS politics ) But perhaps a non-political volunteer organization is an oxymoronic , unrealistic dream......so scratch that suggestion. What you have offered above is spectacular, but a pay grade above what I am contemplating! Whatever they pay you Julian, its not enough :)

What I am seeking is ideas about a single entity, a product that offers something to a singular part of the sailing community.Ahhh, different question. We are asking about criteria for a 21st century sailing product built around the needs of the 21st century sailing community. A product that recognizes that the desires, aspirations and practical, requirements of the sailor in 2025 and 2050 will be different to what they were in 1970?

I cant pretend to look forward to 2050 but for one idea for 2025, ask Paul Young (Rondar) about the design spec and requirements I sent him for the Solstice 20. But this is a thread about ........(hmmm I had to scroll up to the top of the page to remind myself what the hell this thread was originally about)....about ILCA selecting new builders, so I think it would be a mighty big thread diversion.

You touch on age, and that is important, how do you reconcile  the aspirations of a 14 something kids, who has no pre-conceived ideas with those of a 40 year old

The is really really important.   You dont!

hard nose who has being doing the same thing for the last 25 years and can't see why he should do anything else, ever.      Should the 14 year old be rail-roaded into the 40 year-olds train track of 25 years of PAST history????     And if not, what check and balances should be in place so that the 40 years old's credibility is not thrown in the can!??

Reverse the traditional French proverb : Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait"

I would start a presentation with the single line " Si jeunesse savait, si vieillesse pouvait"  - French proverb which roughly translated means " If youth but knew, if old only could do" and say how I fundamentally believe we need to turn that around

"Les jeunes savent mais les vieux peuvent"

The young have great ideas but the old have the experience to execute and make those ideas happen.

 

 

BTW, I really like your #4!

Ask and you will recieve, and that you have!

                 jB

 

 

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6 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

The hypothetical one in JMP’s post.

Ah OK, thanks.

 

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Brilliant, have been ignoring the whole Laser omnishambles for a while, just getting up to date.

Great stuff, you couldn't make it up, you would have to be a complete fuckwit to buy a new Laser/Torch/ILCA now, or on some kind of 'pathway'.

I feel a little sad also, while wild horses couldn't get me back in a Laser, it was nice having them about as a benchmark, for performance, cost etc, it's been the one great constant of fleets all my sailing life.

One question: where will all the shouty bargy cheaty assholes go now? It was good keeping them all in one place, at least.

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3 minutes ago, maxstaylock said:

 

Thanks for sharing 

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6 minutes ago, maxstaylock said:

 

One question: where will all the shouty bargy cheaty assholes go now? It was good keeping them all in one place, at least.

BTW  so far 288  of them will be here 

https://sailing.laserinternational.org/site/event-site/112/entrylist

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39 minutes ago, maxstaylock said:

Brilliant, have been ignoring the whole Laser omnishambles for a while, just getting up to date.

Great stuff, you couldn't make it up, you would have to be a complete fuckwit to buy a new Laser/Torch/ILCA now, or on some kind of 'pathway'.

I feel a little sad also, while wild horses couldn't get me back in a Laser, it was nice having them about as a benchmark, for performance, cost etc, it's been the one great constant of fleets all my sailing life.

One question: where will all the shouty bargy cheaty assholes go now? It was good keeping them all in one place, at least.

LOL they will be easy to find. They will have new boats that say ILCA instead of Laser on them or the sail, have a carbon upper section or C rig, and respond to the name lemming. Oh, they will also have some of your money on their pocket!! :lol:

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1 hour ago, maxstaylock said:

Brilliant, have been ignoring the whole Laser omnishambles for a while, just getting up to date.

Great stuff, you couldn't make it up, you would have to be a complete fuckwit to buy a new Laser/Torch/ILCA now, or on some kind of 'pathway'.

I feel a little sad also, while wild horses couldn't get me back in a Laser, it was nice having them about as a benchmark, for performance, cost etc, it's been the one great constant of fleets all my sailing life.

One question: where will all the shouty bargy cheaty assholes go now? It was good keeping them all in one place, at least.

We're all coming to your fleet M'fer! Now get the F out of our way while we rock and ooch our asses past you!

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL they will be easy to find. They  Some will have new boats from a top notch local builder that say ILCA instead of Laser on them or the sail, and may have a carbon upper section.  or C rig, and respond to the name lemming. Oh, they will also have some of your money on their pocket!! And they will still have the largest, most competitive international fleets in the world! Oh and the local scene in most markets still crushes any other singlehanders But feel free to sail something else in the handicap fleet if you like! :lol:

Took some surgery, but I FIFY

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1 hour ago, bill4 said:

Took some surgery, but I FIFY

Further proof that ILCA lemmings rewrite history and facts! Come on Bill what ever happens to that list of ALL the fees? 

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29 minutes ago, Wess said:

Further proof that ILCA lemmings rewrite history and facts! Come on Bill what ever happens to that list of ALL the fees? 

 

 

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4 hours ago, tillerman said:

 

 

The truth is the ILCA nee Laser will remain on top of the dinghy world for the rest of us old farts’ dinghy racing career. I can handle that.

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That's the kind of thinking that makes comfy corrupt cunts think they can keep selling badly made crap, for ever more silly money, until all of a sudden there is no business.

About to have to buy a Radial for my niece, who is on a Pathway, it hurts to have to drop pants and bend over just to replace a sail, it hurts more to think the comfy corrupt cunts will see mine as a vote of support for their continued fuckwittery.

Kodak, anyone?

 

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4 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

That's the kind of thinking that makes comfy corrupt cunts think they can keep selling badly made crap, for ever more silly money, until all of a sudden there is no business.

About to have to buy a Radial for my niece, who is on a Pathway, it hurts to have to drop pants and bend over just to replace a sail, it hurts more to think the comfy corrupt cunts will see mine as a vote of support for their continued fuckwittery.

Kodak, anyone?

 

C'mon. You know you like it.

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10 hours ago, bill4 said:

The truth is the ILCA nee Laser will remain on top of the dinghy world for the rest of us old farts’ dinghy racing career. I can handle that.

1648245909_dinosaurcomet.jpg.67fa1266ca106897adf08d0466409c96.jpg

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29 minutes ago, tillerman said:

1648245909_dinosaurcomet.jpg.67fa1266ca106897adf08d0466409c96.jpg

That doesn't change my truth! We will all be fossils before the demise of the ILCA! And what does that thing in the sky represent? The Aero?

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6 hours ago, maxstaylock said:

That's the kind of thinking that makes comfy corrupt cunts think they can keep selling badly made crap, for ever more silly money, until all of a sudden there is no business.

About to have to buy a Radial for my niece, who is on a Pathway, it hurts to have to drop pants and bend over just to replace a sail, it hurts more to think the comfy corrupt cunts will see mine as a vote of support for their continued fuckwittery.

Kodak, anyone?

 

Your niece is lucky to have such a warm, loving uncle. When you deliver the boat, I suggest you leave out the comfy, corrupt, cunts bit - probably the bending over comment, too.  I would save that for the boat park when you and all the other loving relatives of the youth sailors are spreading the joy! (Anybody else hate the term "pathway"? )

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37 minutes ago, tillerman said:

1648245909_dinosaurcomet.jpg.67fa1266ca106897adf08d0466409c96.jpg

LOL, you have no idea how lucky you were, and club Laser sailors weren't, that WS didn't pick the Aero (after they picked the Aero) for the 2024 Olympics.  That decision will ultimately save your class and allow it to continue to grow and thrive at the grass roots level.  No joke. 

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20 minutes ago, bill4 said:

That doesn't change my truth! We will all be fossils before the demise of the ILCA! And what does that thing in the sky represent? The Aero?

No. Not meant to be the Aero.

The whole point of the "thing in the sky" cartoon is that brands and species who have been extremely successful can easily become complacent and not recognize the danger of the tiny thing in the sky.

One thing for sure is that you won't see it coming before it's too late.
 

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1 minute ago, tillerman said:

No. Not meant to be the Aero.

The whole point of the "thing in the sky" cartoon is that brands and species who have been extremely successful can easily become complacent and not recognize the danger of the tiny thing in the sky until it's too late.

One thing for sure is that you won't see it coming before it's too late.
 

I get it, Tillerman. But I kept my vinyl and turntable through the 8 track, cassette and CD phases! No Kodak, though...

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12 minutes ago, Wess said:

LOL, you have no idea how lucky you were, and club Laser sailors weren't, that WS didn't pick the Aero (after they picked the Aero) for the 2024 Olympics.  That decision will ultimately save your class and allow it to continue to grow and thrive at the grass roots level.  No joke. 

Oh yes I do know how lucky the RS Aero class has been to dodge that bullet.

How could I not be aware of how lucky we Aero sailors we are when I read this thread every day?

Thank you, thank you, thank you ILCA for doing whatever it was you did to keep the Aero out of the Olympics. Keep up the good work.

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10 minutes ago, tillerman said:



The whole point of the "thing in the sky" cartoon 
 

It's a dopey analogy.  Dinos couldn't do anything about it, so any time they spent worrying about it was purely wasted. I see that cartoon saying 'enjoy what you got'.

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23 minutes ago, bill4 said:

Your niece is lucky to have such a warm, loving uncle. When you deliver the boat, I suggest you leave out the comfy, corrupt, cunts bit - probably the bending over comment, too.  I would save that for the boat park when you and all the other loving relatives of the youth sailors are spreading the joy! (Anybody else hate the term "pathway"? )

Yes, I hate the term "pathway." 

It seems to be a term invented to prevent young sailors from figuring out for themselves what boats will be most rewarding for them as individuals.

And I hate the RS Sailing "pathway" as much as all the others. It shows the RS Aero as a "pathway" boat to the Laser and Radial for chrissakes. Really? 

https://www.rssailing.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/04/RS-EQUIPMENT-DEVELOPMENT-PATHWAY-2018.pdf

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Oh yes I do know how lucky the RS Aero class has been to dodge that bullet.

How could I not be aware of how lucky we Aero sailors we are when I read this thread every day?

Thank you, thank you, thank you ILCA for doing whatever it was you did to keep the Aero out of the Olympics. Keep up the good work.

Was not trolling you.  Seriously, Aero lucked out.  Organic sustainable growth comes from the grass roots club level.  Not the pointy end.  There were more Aeros sold in the US than Lasers last year.  The Laser is now as much if not more expensive than the Aero.  And being a more modern boat the Aero has a number of practical advantages.  As your fleets continue to grow it becomes a self fulfilling prophecy.  And then WS will come calling for you LOL.  #Runtheotherway   

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8 minutes ago, Wess said:

 There were more new Aeros sold in the US than new Lasers last year.  

There were likely more used Lasers sold to the grassroots crowd then new Aeros and new Lasers combined. 

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4 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Yes, I hate the term "pathway." 

It seems to be a term invented by lazy coaches and greedy marketeers to prevent young sailors from figuring out for themselves what boats will be most rewarding for them as individuals. (And I hate the RS Sailing "pathways" as much as all the others.)

Maybe it's being used differently...? I understand it to mean a limited number of dinghies that are believed capable of forming a route to to the top of the sport, supported by class-specific training and competition.

 The idea being to increase fleet size and focused training  in dinghies that reward sailing skills needed in top competition. So instead of a bunch of kids learning poor technique in a variety of poor boats, they get to sail together in fewer one-designs.

 It can be done badly- eg inappropriate boats for the locality (Oppies in strong tidal streams or 4.7s in light winds areas) but the basic idea isn't to market boats but to allow coaches to focus on helping sailors improve instead of spreading themselves across numerous small dinghy types...   It may not be much help to the sailors but it can make it a lot easier to persuade parents (and sometimes clubs) to invest in boats with training programmes and other kids to sail with instead of ones that are well-marketed but flawed by sales-orientated design or low maintenance features.

 A nearby club committee loves it's Laser Picos: they can be sailed just as badly by two people as by one (apparently that makes them "versatile") and they never need repairing because they are so crap to sail that they hardly get used ("low maintenance")...  Their junior programme, OTOH, uses Oppies owned by parents and has produced some excellent sailors across many classes... 

Hadn't seen the RS version before... seems like it's just mapping a standard coaching pathway onto their product line, rather than something they've created separately?

Cheers,

               W.

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14 minutes ago, bill4 said:

There were likely more used Lasers sold to the grassroots crowd then new Aeros and new Lasers combined. 

But that too will change.  Is changing.  The number of Lasers racing is declining.  The number of Aeros racing is growing.  Just like with new boat sales eventually the lines will cross for used boats.

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30 minutes ago, Wess said:

But that too will change.  Is changing.  The number of Lasers racing is declining.  The number of Aeros racing is growing.  Just like with new boat sales eventually the lines will cross for used boats.

Let's not get too locked in to thinking of this as a Laser vs Aero issue. Lots of people are moving from Lasers to all sorts of other boats of newer design including all the available foilers. 

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Here's a question.  What happens if WS collapses, (as it appears to be doing and probably deserves)?  Does all of sailing get booted from the Olympics, (before the end of the 2028 cycle when lots are expecting it to happen after that cycle anyway)?  

If WS collapses then there's no more "fees" to WS from ILCA sales which means ILCA prices come down. 

In the absence of WS and the Olympics I'm still struggling to see the downside of the July class changes even though WS made the FRAND requirement.

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.....................

Edited by Xeon

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12 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

What happens if WS collapses, (as it appears to be doing and probably deserves)? =

Chicken and egg.  As long as the IOC check keeps coming, WS will keep finding a way to stay afloat.  Don't believe the hype.

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43 minutes ago, tillerman said:

Let's not get too locked in to thinking of this as a Laser vs Aero issue. Lots of people are moving from Lasers to all sorts of other boats of newer design including all the available foilers. 

 Hey! You and your wingman Wess started it! The shift away from Lasers, to your point, is already underway - and has been going on for years. Look at all the Laser champions that have moved on to bigger and, arguably, better things. From Moths to Stars to Americas Cup - you name it! I keep moving away (4 times...) and then coming back again - for the reasons of better racing and more participants. And I am sure there are plenty others. I recall a story of 10 ex-Laser sailors in Toronto who had dropped away from sailing as life took over, and then organizing a group buy of 10 once they had their lives back. I don't see a seismic shift from Laser to Aero or any other single handed boat that stays on the surface. An improved Laser will lure some, but it won't change the world and it won't crush the fleet.

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5 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

Chicken and egg.  As long as the IOC check keeps coming, WS will keep finding a way to stay afloat.  Don't believe the hype.

Seems like a shame.  Bet a lot more could be done for sailing with that money that shoving into what has been a continually failing organization. That, (and this is another topic) US Sailing seems to like buddying up to....

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8 minutes ago, bill4 said:

I keep moving away (4 times...) and then coming back again - for the reasons of better racing and more participants. .

Ditto:

Force 5,  Laser,  Windsurfer,  Hobie 16,  Laser,  New Laser,  J24,  JY15,  J22,  Laser,  Newer Laser,  Newer Laser.  Still crew on 24's from time to time.  Have a soft spot for those, (even though NOTHING is soft about those boats!).

 

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1 hour ago, tillerman said:

Let's not get too locked in to thinking of this as a Laser vs Aero issue. Lots of people are moving from Lasers to all sorts of other boats of newer design including all the available foilers. 

The important thing is to have people still sailing.  I doubt anyone would disagree that requires new toys every now and then.

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44 minutes ago, RobbieB said:

Seems like a shame.  Bet a lot more could be done for sailing with that money that shoving into what has been a continually failing organization. That, (and this is another topic) US Sailing seems to like buddying up to....

I thought you were talking about ILCA there for a second :)

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7 minutes ago, sosoomii said:

I thought you were talking about ILCA there for a second :)

Good one.

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Ditto about people moving away from the laser .

My boat history is, old laser, lighting 368, supernova , british moth, newer laser, british moth, british moth, british moth and now thinking about d zero. 
 

Lasers are now completely off my radar for ever more. Cannot think of any reason why I would ever buy a laser again unless the C rigs gain some traction and they sort the rudder out too ^_^

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Here's a question.  What happens if WS collapses, (as it appears to be doing and probably deserves)?  Does all of sailing get booted from the Olympics, (before the end of the 2028 cycle when lots are expecting it to happen after that cycle anyway)?  

If WS collapses then there's no more "fees" to WS from ILCA sales which means ILCA prices come down. 

In the absence of WS and the Olympics I'm still struggling to see the downside of the July class changes even though WS made the FRAND requirement.

Get real.  WS is never ever going away no matter how much they and others deserve to to be gone.  They basically have a license to print money.  They will get it from IOC, they will get it from ILCA (and other classes), they will get it from boat builders, and they will get it from you and me.

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3 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Seems like a shame.  Bet a lot more could be done for sailing with that money that shoving into what has been a continually failing organization. That, (and this is another topic) US Sailing seems to like buddying up to....

And that is my point about all those ILCA fees too.  

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13 minutes ago, Wess said:

Get real.  WS is never ever going away no matter how much they and others deserve to to be gone.  They basically have a license to print money.  

That's what a government sanctioned monopoly is all about!  Anyone who watches the Olympics is perpetuating the problem.  Cha-ching.

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Wess. Think one thing we have learned over the years . WS or ILCA are never going to get any money off you :P

Because you are just a free loader .

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1 minute ago, Xeon said:

Wess. Think one thing we have learned over the years . WS is never going to get any money off you :P

YES THEY DO REGARDLESS OF IF I WANT THEM TOO OR NOT!!  I - you - anybody - NOBODY gets a say.  If you buy a new Laser, and I will although Bill keeps telling me what club sailors should and should not buy, part of my money goes to WS.  And to ILCA.  Regardless of if I want it to or not.  Really not busting your chops but that is a fact. #pickpockets

I would rather give that money to local clubs.  Heck I give much more than that every year to local sailing causes near and dear to my heart. 

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12 minutes ago, MR.CLEAN said:

That's what a government sanctioned monopoly is all about!  Anyone who watches the Olympics is perpetuating the problem.  Cha-ching.

Yes, agree.  Sorry I posted before seeing your response to Robbie.  And yea I still watch regardless, LOL. 

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19 minutes ago, Wess said:

Yes, agree.  Sorry I posted before seeing your response to Robbie.  And yea I still watch regardless, LOL. 

They are $3 million dollars in debt.  How can they get flush again?  For Olympic sailing there's almost $0 in TV revenue cause very few people want to watch sailing.  I just don't see how this part of our sport can keep going.

Note- The WS revelations ($3 million part) are new to me over the past couple of weeks.

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22 minutes ago, Wess said:

YES THEY DO REGARDLESS OF IF I WANT THEM TOO OR NOT!!  I - you - anybody - NOBODY gets a say.  If you buy a new Laser, and I will although Bill keeps telling me what club sailors should and should not buy, part of my money goes to WS.  And to ILCA.  Regardless of if I want it to or not.  Really not busting your chops but that is a fact. #pickpockets

I would rather give that money to local clubs.  Heck I give much more than that every year to local sailing causes near and dear to my heart. 

As I said, a FREELOADER 

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1 hour ago, RobbieB said:

They are $3 million dollars in debt.  How can they get flush again?  For Olympic sailing there's almost $0 in TV revenue cause very few people want to watch sailing.  I just don't see how this part of our sport can keep going.

Note- The WS revelations ($3 million part) are new to me over the past couple of weeks.

WS gets a whack of cash from IOC following Olympics. I used to know where to find all this, and I have posted before, but for example WS collected GBP8.8million following the 2012 games. They then spent all that (and then some) until they received the 2016 funds which I believe was USD$12million. So WS then spent all that plus $3million so far. (These are very round numbers for illustrative purposes...)

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7 hours ago, RobbieB said:

Seems like a shame.  Bet a lot more could be done for sailing with that money that shoving into what has been a continually failing organization. That, (and this is another topic) US Sailing seems to like buddying up to....

It is a shame and one that is of a much larger scale than you allude to.  You helped point out that there is roughly a $5000 difference between a Laser with all the upgrades and fees and one without any of them.  Instead of sending money to WS, ILCA and all the others that promote and protect the elite end of the sport, put all that money into local clubs and community out-reach and we could change the sport.  We don't need a WS, an ILCA, or NAs or even RAs.  What we need are local clubs.  If you love the sport, invest your time and send your money there. 

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7 hours ago, Wess said:

YES THEY DO REGARDLESS OF IF I WANT THEM TOO OR NOT!!  I - you - anybody - NOBODY gets a say.  If you buy a new Laser, and I will although Bill keeps telling me what club sailors should and should not buy, part of my money goes to WS.  And to ILCA.  Regardless of if I want it to or not.  Really not busting your chops but that is a fact. #pickpockets

I would rather give that money to local clubs.  Heck I give much more than that every year to local sailing causes near and dear to my heart. 

Yeah. We dont need no stinking racing rules of sailing....or trained judges.....and we certainly dont need PROs or race committees.

Lets get back to basics. A rabbit start and bumper cars around the course with no rights of way.

 

 

Dont get me wrong....I think that WS is a hugely mismanaged organization that allocates its resources in an inept fashion. But if it could rediscover its core mission, there really is a mission that needs to be executed by a body representing the sport.

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Quote

Sailboats.co.uk is proud to be the only supplier in the UK for Fully Class Legal ILCA Sails. International Laser Class Association (ILCA) branded and legal racing at alll levels including Worlds. NOW 10% OFF!

Firstly, how have they got a monopoly on supplying class legal sails?  It seems inconceivable that nobody else in the UK would like to be a supplier.

Secondly, why would they offer 10% off when there is no competition?  

 

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North are gearing up to be able to sell class legal sails direct to the public, and people are free to buy sails through whatever vendor has class legal sails in stock anyway...

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But it seems that sailboats are the only UK vendor with legal sails.  Does that reflect a lack of demand for ILCA sails or the slow progress in complying with antitrust laws? 

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9 hours ago, LMI said:

 You helped point out that there is roughly a $5000 difference between a Laser with all the upgrades and fees and one without any of them. 

The fees are hardly significant. The differential appears to be LPE massively discounting their not class legal Lasers. One can imagine all sorts of reasons why that might be, especially bearing in mind LPs recent history with all their major CAs, not just ILCA, but I don't pretend to have any idea why they act as they do.

The cynical might note that its a common business tactic for a financially strong company to attempt to cut off the income stream of a weaker one by discounting.

 

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